Sobriety and Recovery ft. Danielle #155

Steve welcomes back Danielle to discuss the differences between sobriety and recovery, and our journey through both in the queer community.

Topics Discussed Include:

•  Catching up with Danielle since our last episode
• Defining sobriety and our experiences being sober before starting our recovery journeys.
• Defining recovery and how that changed not just our sobriety, but our entire lives.
• Discussing how twelve step work worked for us, as well as other tools we use in our recovery.
• And much more!

Check out our Patreon page for our Post-Show, now featuring video and the Topic Wheel and follow us wherever you are listening to get new episodes every Thursday!

Follow Danielle at @dc_and_rosey on Instagram and follow us while you are at it @gayapodcast

Until next time, stay sober friends!

Transcript

Steve: 0:03

Hi everyone, and welcome to gAy A, a podcast about sobriety for the LGBTQIA+ community and our allies. I'm your host, Steve Bennett. Martin. I'm an alcoholic and addict, and I'm grateful for my best friends, crystal and Brittany. As of this recording, I am 820 days sober, and today we're welcoming back friend of the pod Danielle to talk about sobriety versus recovery. Welcome back, Danielle.

Danielle: 0:27

Thank you so much. It's so great to be

Steve: 0:28

here. Yes. And it wasn't too, too long ago since you were last on, but why don't you reintroduce yourself to anyone who might be just a newer listener.

Danielle: 0:36

Sure. Yeah, I wanna say it was December or January. So my name is Danielle. I am a grateful, recovering alcoholic. As of today, I am 1,301 days. Into my sobriety journey. And I'm just excited to be here and chat and, my goal is anything I can share, I very much believe in that,, I recover out loud so other people don't suffer in silence. So that's my hope and goal with this. Yes.

Steve: 1:04

Wow, wonderful. I definitely embrace that idea as well. What's been new since December or January in your life and your recovery?

Danielle: 1:13

Well, I guess the biggest things are I got into and started a PhD program, so that's, congratulations. Very intense. It started in the summer and so I'm one semester down, two classes. And you know, just. Definitely something I would never have ventured into without being s sober. And the other thing is simultaneously I sign up for a marathon, which is tomorrow. So tomorrow's at 7:00 AM I will be at a starting line and attempting to move my body 26.2 miles. Wow. Okay. And again, something I would, I, I've run two when I was much younger and right as I was. Getting sober and the pandemic hit. I just found myself with a lot of free time and got back in really back into running. I think I mentioned that last time, and I just kind of was like, you know, let, let me see if I can do this again. So tomorrow we'll find out. That's

Steve: 2:07

awesome. I can't wait to hear how it goes. Yes. And out of everything we could talk about today, why did you choose talking about the differences between sobriety and recovery?

Danielle: 2:18

Yeah, that's just a topic that sort of keeps, coming in my path and I've had the opportunity to share my story at a couple of AA meetings and, just kind of came to me in, in those moments. And to me, I feel like it's a really important thing to kind of delineate and not that people who choose to not drink or consider themselves sober and that's as far as they take it. They just don't, don't consume alcohol. That's not. It's not, it's not a, I don't the word versus, I don't even know if I feel that way about it, but I just, for me, I know all the things I just said. Starting a PhD program, choosing to run a marathon. I say choosing. Mm-hmm. All the things that I feel like I have now is really because of the work that I've done. I had to be sober to do the work, certainly, but it is the work of recovery and really doing that, self-seeking and self-observation. So I just think it's important. It's an important topic to me. I like to kind of tease that apart. Yeah.

Steve: 3:13

I definitely love and appreciate it because oftentimes when I'm not, Actively choosing my words consciously. I'll use sobriety and recovery almost interchangeably, but they are very different. I know that the definition of sobriety is eliminating alcohol and drugs drug use from your life. When did your sobriety journey start or when did you first try sobriety?

Danielle: 3:36

Sure. So When I stopped drinking, I didn't entirely know I was getting sober. I didn't, and I definitely wasn't. I had no idea, even though my mom was in AA for many years at the end of her life. So I, I knew of aa, but I didn't know there was legit homework involved. So 2018 and 2019 were real difficult and real miserable for me, and alcohol fueled a lot of that. Alcohol was really, you know, it is a depressant. It's a drug that is not good for the body. and I know that's controversial and people have a hard time with that and we'll leave that for another day. But for me, 2018 and 2019, there was a lot of things going on in my life with my marriage. With some extended family. And alcohol really brought me to the brink of really wanting to end my own existence, and that's not good. So luckily I had a therapist who is in recovery in aa and, and alcohol, from what I've learned, talking to people in aa, it's isolating when you're consuming it to that level. I wasn't even a daily drinker. So everyone has a different experience, but. She very gently encouraged me into the rooms of aa and it was about making friends. It was about kind of finding a group of people that I could do the things she knew I loved to do, running, hiking, just being living living joyfully. So she sort of, gently as we went from 2019 into 2020 Kind of gently got me to that space, but I didn't know what I was doing. I wasn't calling it sobriety. I did dry January in 2020. I went to my first AA meeting of all days February 14th. Valentine's Day, I just think is so sweet. No better way to love yourself than to, to take, take care of yourself in this way. And it really wasn't until. A couple months later, the pandemic hit, obviously AA meetings went online to Zoom, and I started being able to go more frequently because I was home in the morning. I wasn't commuting to work, I wasn't having to get my kids off to school. And then, and then I kind of realized what I was doing. So at that point it was more like I'm getting sober. I'm, I'm quitting drinking, and I'm feeling better and I'm running more. And just kind of everything's feeling feeling better. But the, the, the, the true shift to thinking about recovery didn't really start until I was doing the step work, which was like a year for me. I started that about a year into sobriety. And for folks unfamiliar with aa, I mean, I think most people know it's a 12 step program, but I really did. Like everyone knows that part, but like there's actual work to do. And so the fourth step is writing and writing and writing, and just clearing all the gunk out of all the things that you feel shameful about. All the things that you regret, all the things that you fear, and you just get it all out of you. And that's cathartic. And then the fifth step is saying it all out loud. That's cathartic. Mm-hmm. And then for me it was really hitting the eighth and ninth steps, which is about making amends. It's really sitting, you know, you got it all out of you, but now you have to circle back to the people mm-hmm. That are involved in fourth, the fourth step. And you have to sit, ideally face to face if folks are willing. And many of my folks weren't willing, and that's okay. I wrote letters and that's after doing the ninth step, which was making them making amends. So I literally happened to do that within a calendar year. So I did that all in 2022. And I don't know why, that just made me like, it just was very satisfying within, so 2022 was this real shift for me of like, oh, and I, you know, like people told me what it would feel like and this and that, but it really was, I've described it as like just. This boulder being clipped off my back, like it just literally dropped the weight of all of it. And I was able to forgive myself for things you know, you go into this clearing your side of the street and there's certainly people out there that owe me apologies. There's certainly people out there that could say some things to me. But it's not about that. And the ultimate goal for me was to know that I did my best and that I've circled back and I've apologized and I've cleared up where I went wrong and that's the best I can do. And then all of that, I was able to forgive myself and sense that I just had no idea how freeing that would feel. And to me that's the recovery piece because through all of that, I didn't drink. and that's amazing in and of itself. For some people, like I said, that's enough but for me to be able to live with a clear conscience because that's why I was drinking, because I had been doing all these things and the more you mess up, the more you drink anyway'cause you feel bad'cause you did it and then it's like this vicious like cycle and just swirl that just brings you down, down, down. And so to go through all the literally steps and at the end I really was like, I felt really free, and that's how I feel and that's how I live today. And I can walk around town and there's plenty of people that I don't love to run into, but I feel so much better in my own skin and in my own space.

Steve: 8:45

Yeah, for sure. I know that prior to entering a recovery, I certainly had times of. I didn't call it at the time sobriety, but times where I was like, I'm not gonna drink for one month or one week or three months or until x, y, Z happens. And during that time, I wasn't doing any sort of recovery work or working on myself. I was just, what I've learned in the rooms we call a dry drunk. Did you have experiences of either being a dry drunk or interacting with people who were, might be sober but still were very alcoholic? I.

Danielle: 9:19

Yeah. So for me, prior to really putting alcohol away in 2020, I did dry January. I went out with friends for dinner and had two beers on February 1st, 2020. And I knew, I knew in my head, These are probably gonna be my last two beers. And I was really happy that like I didn't go all out. I didn't go home and drink more. I was so done. I was so bored with it all. But prior to that, like 20 18, 20 19, I had days where I was trying to regulate and I've said, said to to people you know, like that, that mental gymnastics is just gone, right? Like, I don't have to, like, am I gonna drink today? Am I not gonna drink today? You know, that sort of dance is just it. That's a part of the freedom too, right? Of like, it's just easier. Yeah. It's just, I wake up in the morning and know no matter what happens today, I'm not gonna drink. And it's just an. Easier way, happier way to live. So I tried to regulate, but I wasn't ever really trying to quit. Mm-hmm. I kind of knew I wanted to, so the marriage, I was having a difficult time and has sent ended right before Covid. And I knew like 2018 and 2019, I knew I wanted to, and at one point, being kind of the dork I am, I was kind of trying to come at it as a math sort of thing. And she walked in the room one day. I was like, what are you doing? I'm like, oh, I'm doing the math of how much money we would save if I didn't drink. And she literally looked at me and was like, oh, you could never do that. Okay, thanks for that moral support. But besides that, I didn't really have a whole lot of like, dried drunk time. But I've definitely interacted with people. You know, two people in particular. I dated one person who was not drinking. And so I thought like, I was not drinking and I was like, okay, this, this is good. And as the relationship went on, I could really see the difference of like, oh, like you're not drinking and that's good. That is really good for you and that's very healthy for you, but you're not taking any time to investigate. Why you. Why you did the things you did and kind of, you know, again, like all the things I just explained, like not getting to this next level of like living this more free and joyous life. And I think there are, and it, it was, it, it, we bumped up against it a couple of times because I didn't, you know, it's not for me to judge and it's not for me to choose what anyone else does and what their path is. But it became difficult too because they were trying to kind of like, Attach themselves to the work I was doing. Mm-hmm. I was like, well, that's just not how that works. Yeah. Like, I'm doing my work. And you can be supportive and you can be, enthusiastic and you can find it inspiring and that's all lovely in a relationship, but it doesn't solve you not doing your own work and you not doing the, in the investigation. And then I do have a, a family member who is also sober and Just, there's some mental health issues as well. But I think it's, it is difficult because, you know, my, my sponsor says to me that, you know, people in that situation, you're just not speaking the same language. Mm-hmm. You know, you're just not, using the same sort of glossary of terms and way of being. And my experience is, and this is true of people that are not all people, but there are people I. One in particular I'm not friends with anymore who you know, is in that space of not not wanting to be around me because I don't drink. And that's threatening and it's, it's, it's a little heartbreaking, right? Because it's like I was that person too. Like I know on some level you just don't wanna, touch this because, it's too close to home for you and you just have to wish those people the best on their journey and hope they hope. Hope they find the right space for them. Yeah,

Steve: 12:56

I can certainly understand. I know that I've only recently been unpacking Part of, I feel like my complicated relationship with alcohol right off the bat is I grew up with a father who was very much a dry drunk and he never had periods of sobriety, but I don't know what he was thinking, but like probably spend the entire day thinking about drinking.'cause he would come home so angry and so upset and so verbally abusive and intimidating and scary towards my brother, my mom and I. And then dinner would happen, he'd have a beer, he'd grab a second beer on the way out to his man cave. We didn't call them that back then, but to the den and And an hour later he'd come in and apologize en of beer and be sorry and ap like the nice dad. And so I grew up like being like, oh, okay, well if you're angry and upset and feeling all those things, this solution is to have a beer. And, so, I know that that's not how it works. And I know that there are times where he goes like, weeks without drinking, but like when he drinks, He is always a nicer version of himself. So I think that that's kind of why I grew up thinking oh, well drinking is the answer to meanness and bad people,

Danielle: 14:00

right? Oh yeah. I think people that struggle with that up and down, and I feel like that's one thing that I think a lot of folks don't understand about people who don't drink. Is that they can live with joy and with happiness and, be fun and foolish and all of those things. Without it, I think it's, we grow up with it. Most of us grow up with it in our homes and kind of that dance of a relationship and watching people. You know, and, and many people don't have a, a healthy relationship with alcohol. Many, many people you know, struggle with that. And yeah, I just had the opportunity a couple weeks ago. I'm dating somebody new and they, they drink occasionally. They actually use cannabis occasionally, and, you know, we're, we're, we're managing that, but they were meeting a friend at a food truck Friday at a brewery. You know, she invited me. She was like, you know, and as it got closer and we have a lot of great, great conversations and she was like, you know, are you gonna be okay with this? And I was like, I, I think so, but if I'm not, I will leave. I, I know that like I, you know, you're inviting me and I wanna meet your friend. And it was lovely. It was, it was outside, you know, I'm like, I'm not gonna sit in a bar. Like, that's my one thing. I'm like, I am not gonna sit on a bar stool. I know that. Yeah. And not even,'cause I would be worried I would drink, I just don't wanna spend my time that way. Yeah. Especially if it's nice out, if it's nice out. No, I mean, 2016 to 2019, I wasted so many nice days in bars and it's like, oh. But it's outside, right? And there's tons of food trucks and tons of people, and there's kids and dogs and we got food and they had, her and her friend had a couple beers and it just, the alcohol around me was irrelevant. But what I felt for me was, We were chatting and laughing and at the end of the night, like I had biked over there and it just, it just, I was like, this is how I want to live. Like I'm just being my like goofy self and having a great time and I'm so much more, this is the other thing that's really, really big for me and I think this is not, maybe people who just don't drink get to this point too, but I'm so much more present. I am so involved in the conversations I'm having with people, and that goes back to the mental gymnastics piece. If I'm drinking, all I'm thinking about is how much have they had? Can we get another drink? I don't know. Is it time? Am I having too much? And I'm just like, all I'm thinking about is the alcohol around me. Whereas this. I was literally surrounded by people drinking alcohol. I'm not. I brought my seltzer, I brought my water bottle. I'm having my burger, and I don't give a crap what anyone else is doing, but I'm involved in the conversation. I'm like engaged and I'm just so grounded and so present and that I can't. I can't trade that gift in for anything.

Steve: 16:48

Yeah, I love that because I know that not every time that I went out with friends, I blacked out. I mean, I blacked out a lot when I drank, but I wasn't always a blackout drinker. But there were times where we would go out to dinner or something and I wouldn't remember any of the conversations afterwards or what we talked about or what happened. And it wasn't because I was. Blackout drunk. It's because I only had my one and a half to two drinks and my mind was doing that mental gymnastics of like, well, if I go to the bathroom, I could sneak a shot on the way, and if I do this, then I can get another drink this way. And why isn't that person drinking as fast? And I can't wait until this person gets their next round so I can go up with them and that I wasn't involved in the conversations or what was actually happening around me. So being able to be present, like in social situations has been very nice. Yeah.

Danielle: 17:30

Oh my God, that's all so relatable. And it is so sad because I just know for those two exact reasons, sometimes it was like, oh, I have no idea what happened last night. And that's terrible. I'm like, I'm an adult. Like that's just not, that's no way. That's no way to live. Thats, but, but you're right. Those other pieces of like, it's not even that I'm drinking that much. I'm just so focused on all these other pieces instead of just intaking what the conversation is. so that is, if I wanna go back

Steve: 17:58

Yeah. Well, no matter how dedicated we are to our recovery, I hear a lot of people who experience humps where they might not be working as thoroughly on their recovery. Have you experienced that and like, how do you overcome those ruts or humps?

Danielle: 18:13

Yeah, I think if I'm being honest, and maybe I'll share this with my sponsor after, I think I'm a little bit in one of those humps, so I did steps eight and nine, which are again, like writing out who you need to make amends to making amends, and then 10, 11, 12 are more about, I. Spreading the word of aa, which I think I do that part, but getting more involved in service and a lot of it is really connecting on the, spiritual part of, of AA for folks who use aa. Is that kind of, those final steps of really honing in on your own spiritual experience and taking you to that next level? And I would say I'm a little stalled on that because. I was just getting to those steps when I started my PhD program in July and this marathon. And so it is sort of, you know, I still call my sponsor pretty much weekly and, and have those conversations and I still get to a couple meetings a week. But it definitely, it was a lot to juggle this summer. So you know, I am in, in that, that rutt and I feel like you know, it's still on, it's still on my plate. It's just sort of like, you know, on the dessert plate. Yeah. Like in the main, the main dish right now. But it's there. And so I think that's important. The, the, I think a lot of folks got get stalled out at the fourth step because it is so, so much. And I think the key to it is Really having a sponsor that that is, is really good for you in terms of encouraging but not scaring you away, but, but nudging for me anyways. And I think a lot of folks, a lot of us are a little heisty and don't like to be told what to do. And so I think it's about finding that sponsor that will keep you engaged. It is really your own work, right? At the end of the day. Yeah. You have to put, I literally did pen to paper. I think some folks do it. Type it out. But to me it was really cathartic to like get it on paper. And my sponsor was like, we should burn that now. I'm like, no, I kind of wanna hold onto it.'cause I don't wanna forget, right? All of this is about, you know, there is that saying the further away you get from your last drink, the closer you are to your next drink. And that's good to remember and terrifying in the same breath. So I really feel like I wanna maintain that. But I think, a lot of folks too. Like, I think it is that, that sponsor relationship that's really important because, it is about accountability. Mm-hmm. And knowing even though it is you and you're only accountable for yourself, having just one other human being that's like, so how's it going? Keeps you trudging along. And I think also true is, If you really, truly need to take a break on it, you really truly need to take a break on it. Right. If it's about the difference between writing some more your fourth step, but it's putting you to the brink of wanting to go out and drink mm-hmm. Then you put down your fourth step for a minute, right? Yeah. And you, you get to meetings and you do whatever else it is you need to do so that you're not. Going out and drinking again, and kind of finding yourself, you know, it's a little bit like that. Game shoots and ladders when we were kids. Yeah. Like you have to, you have to move along. And you don't wanna have to, to slide all the way back to, to the start. But you also, you know, you have to find that balance for yourself. And I think it's, it is really important. And finding other, I mean, for me too, it's been. I think I said this last time, another big thing I've, I've realized in recovery is saying the hard stuff out loud. Mm-hmm. You know, once it leaves your mouth and you just admit to somebody, this is difficult. I'm having a hard time. And to me that's really the blessing of recovery and the blessing of aa. I say all the time, I feel a little bit like I'm cheating at life by having, I have this core group I have a home meeting that meets every morning at seven and I don't, I can't get there every day, but at the same time, I know they're there every day. Yeah. There's like a group of like 40 to 50 people I have in my back pocket. I have in my heart and I can. Go in at any minute and they're all there for me. And I truly wish everyone had that on some level. I don't truly wish alcoholism and being an alcoholic on everybody, certainly, but having that is just. It's an amazing gift. It's like, if I have to give up beer for this, like Absolutely. Hands down. Yeah. Kind of wish I had sooner.

Steve: 22:27

Yeah. But here we go. I agree and I know that, 12 step programs, aa specifically like saved my life and it works for you and works for so many millions of people. But I know that some people just don't feel it's right for them or that they've tried and it has worked. I mean, what other ways can people seek or work on their recovery in addition to or separate from 12 step programs?

Danielle: 22:48

Yeah, that's a really, really good question. I do wanna, before I answer, I still wanna give one more plug for aa. Yeah. Because I think the biggest hurdle for many people is the God part is the higher power part. And that's what I love about my 7:00 AM home group, is that there's such a range of folks that you know, I think I said this last time, there's one guy in my meeting whose higher power is love. Mm-hmm. Like, come on. Like what? you can't be more pure than that. So, if it's the religious piece, just if that's all that's keeping you truly, and you're being honest with yourself, if you can find meetings where there's a range of people and you don't have to be religious in that way. And I certainly felt that way at the beginning. And I'm still sort of honing in on what ex, I don't have like a, a thing that is my higher power. But I know that there's, something, something greater than me. So that's my little plug. But in terms of other ways, obviously it's a little difficult for me'cause I have used aa, but I would say, Meditation if you are religious in other ways I mean, I really just think finding any other. Opportunity or person, obviously therapy is hugely helpful. I still have my therapist and like I said before, any opportunity where you can share how you're feeling because I think that is the biggest thing. People that are struggling with drinking, I did not realize this when I was in it and I was in it, I was in it so deep and it was so dark. I Was just not sharing, I was not being honest with myself and I was not able to communicate to the people around me how far gone I was. And it wasn't about the amount of alcohol I was, for me personally, I was not, I wasn't drinking in the morning. I wasn't drinking at work. I wasn't drinking every day, even on the days I wasn't doing the mental gymnastics, you know, I just. That wasn't, it didn't have to be that, quote unquote that bad. for me. So I think if you're struggling, if you can just find one person that you can share that with maybe it's somebody you know, so you can be aa adjacent. I share out loud, I share on my Instagram, I share on my Facebook about my sobriety. Mm-hmm. And I've definitely had people come to me and say, this is inspiring, this helps me. That's enough for me. Yeah. And whether it gets them to AA or it just gets them to talk to their partner or just kind of take a break from alcohol and see how they feel without doing anything else, I think it's just starting down that path of self-exploration and like, why, why do I do the things I do? How does this actually make me feel? Those are the pieces, but I think, it really is just about finding somebody you trust and sharing,with other people, I think is is immensely helpful.

Steve: 25:32

Yeah, it certainly is. And if after listening to this episode someone wanted to share, connect with you, how would they do

Danielle: 25:37

so? I. On Instagram, I'm DC and Rosie, and I think there's like underscores between the DC and the and, and the Rosie. Rosie's my dog. You may have heard her a little here and there during this podcast. She's been a little, a little growy at some cars going by. Could have been mine

Steve: 25:54

from the lawn guy as well. But yes, I'll, yeah, be sure to double check the underscores before throwing in the show notes for everyone. So you can just click on over and give Danielle a follow.

Danielle: 26:04

Yeah,, I think my Instagram is technically closed, but if anyone tries to follow me and I see that they follow you, mm-hmm. I will accept them. And I actually, so back to your other question about re about recovery and sobriety, I follow tons of sobriety things on Instagram. My Instagram is like a very lovely curated mix of all my, all my passions. So I've got my, I've got my. Queer and sober like you. Yeah. You know, and I've got, I've got Queer Life, I've got sobriety life, I've got Black Lives Matter. You know, like I have all these different, it's just a lovely place for me to go to get support on all the, on all the things. Yeah.

Steve: 26:40

Mine's a mix of like queer, AA or recovery stuff and then dogs.

Danielle: 26:46

Oh yes, of course. The dogs.

Steve: 26:47

Same. Excellent. Well thank you so much, Danielle. Stick around'cause we'll have our post show. But in the meantime it was great catching up with you.

Danielle: 26:55

Yeah, this was so lovely. Thanks for having me back.

Steve: 26:58

Thank you. And thank you listeners for tuning into another episode of Gay a. Be sure to follow Danielle and follow us while you're at it at Gay a podcast. And for more time with Danielle and I head on over to our patron page where we're gonna be spinning the post show topic wheel and talking about whatever fate lands on us. Be sure to follow us where you're listening right now so you can get these new episodes when they come out every Thursday. And until next time, stay sober friends.