At Least I'm Not the Frog ft. Charlie Gray #23

Steve invites on bestselling author, Charlie Gray, to discuss his book, At Least I'm Not the Frog. They also discuss what life has been like since the books release, what's next for Charlie, and some of the burning questions Steve had after reading the book.

You can find "At Least I'm Not the Frog" on Amazon

You can follow Charlie on Instagram @hismajestycharles3rd , and while you are at it follow me @gayapodcast

Also check out his website, www.atleastimnotthefrog.com for his blog!

Transcript

Steve: 0:02

Hi everyone. And

0:03

welcome to gAy A, a podcast

Steve: 0:05

about sobriety for the LGBT plus community and our allies. I'm your host,

0:09

Steve Bennet-Martin. I

Steve: 0:10

am an alcoholic and I'm grateful for my friendships. As of this recording, I am 129 days sober. And today we are welcoming bestselling author of at least I'm not the frog, a zany memoir of alcoholism and recovery. Charlie gray. Welcome to the show Charlie. Hi, Steve, how are you? I'm doing great. I'm so excited to talk with you because I've become somewhat of a super fan of yours since reading the book. So I'm excited to pick your brain on some of the burning questions I've had after reading it.

Charlie: 0:40

Good deal. I'm excited to talk with me too, because actually your content the dynamics of your guests have been so interesting. Just the different. I'm trying to think right now there was the lady that was at evangelical and then Richard and I was like, oh, I really like the dynamic here. So I'm very pleased to speak with you as well.

Steve: 1:01

Yes. And I'm sure that dynamic will continue with you. So I'll bring her to camp. What inspired you to take so many of these very vulnerable parts of your life and publish them into them?

Charlie: 1:14

You know, that is a great question. And really, so the reason that I felt it was very important to be as graphic as I was, my original manuscript was much more graphic and I edited out, edited it. It'll work quite a bit to just tame it down because I felt like sometimes it was maybe going somewhere where I was like, that's not really on point with what I'm trying to do. So let's reign that in But I hadn't read a book and it it's called the girl on the train. I can't remember the author's name. That's terrible, but it was a huge, massive book. So you can just search that for your listeners can. And what was beautiful about that book is it's an alcoholic who witnesses this fantastic event. And. She gets very detailed with her behavior when she's in a blackout and the things that she does or says or sends through her phone. And it was so rewarding for me at that time, I was very much in my active addiction. I was going to rehab because I was always going to rehab. But I was very much in it. And so it was so nice for me to read that on the page and know that I was not as dirty and weird as I thought that really everyone was doing this when they were a blackout. It's just, you're always. So in your head that you're like, oh my God, what is wrong with me? That I'm sending these text messages? Like this is terrible. But then I read that and I was like, thank you so much, whoever wrote this. So that guided me a lot. Just knowing that I know there's so many people out there that needed to read that, to know that no, you're normal, you're just drunk or whatever you're on. It's very normal to be a little dirty and disgusting when you're an inebriated.

Steve: 3:03

Yes, certainly. And a lot of people are certainly responding well to it because it is now the bestselling alcoholism recovery book on Amazon. So congratulations.

Charlie: 3:13

Thank you. Yes. Yes. In Canada, strangely Canada. I, and thankfully, I mean, I'm so pleased, but it's, it's cycled the number one a couple of times now in Canada in that market. And I'm like, that's so. Wild to me, but it's so rewarding because it means yes, that people are resonating with it, that they're seeing a bit of themselves on the page. And hopefully it's helping them either change a behavior or cope through a behavior. So yeah. Thank you for that plug as well. Yeah.

Steve: 3:45

And the majority of our listeners who's subscribed will have already listened to my review of your book in our last episode, but for those who missed it or skipped it, can you share why you chose the title? At least I'm not the frog.

Charlie: 3:58

Yeah, definitely. Definitely. So it comes from a time in my life. I thought it was the lowest point in my life. I would later learn that it wasn't that bad, but cut a lot worse after that, as it usually does. But. During this time I was, I was sitting with my aunt and we were outside and I, or she looked over and saw this snake eating a frog. And I made this this off the cuff remark. Like I will, at least I'm not that frog or the frog is what it became, but at the time it was that frog. And I didn't know that that was gonna carry with me as long as it did when I said it. And there became a point a couple of years later, where I finally reached, like where it wasn't the worst and that still continued to drive me of, well, at least I'm not the frog. Like I'm not, I'm not dead. You know, I've, I've been pretty close a couple of times, but I'm not dead. So when it came time to ride, I was like, well, that is the perfect title. That's of course what I'm going to use. And now it's just, it's really special to me. So

Steve: 5:09

yeah, it's certainly a special, and it's been very good at like making it your thing. I, you know, I'll never see a frog again and not think of you in the book. Oh, yeah. Well, and it's, it's, that's really

Charlie: 5:19

thank you. That's really sweet. And it's also, I figured people would be like, at least I'm not the frog, what the hell does that mean? And maybe it would pull them in. So, yeah. And there was

Steve: 5:31

a bit of thought. Yeah. And speaking of getting pulled in I definitely appreciate it as I read the first few chapters of the book, the slow burn that your troubles with alcohol had instead of like, instead you were focusing more on your relationships with your family and. Like, why did you set it up like that? And why was it important to you?

Charlie: 5:50

Well, so I've read a lot of quit lit is what it's called or recovery literature. And it seemed like there there's not, I mean, the formula is obviously. Here's my life here's drugs or alcohol. Here's how it was terrible. Here's how I got better. That it's pretty formulated across the board with the quit lit. But what I hadn't really seen is like someone gives me big picture. Someone I'm usually only getting rehab or rehab and a year after or after getting sober. I was never able to find like give me before it really began when it was happening and when it was over, because that's, that's what I identify with. I say in my book, you know, that you're never supposed to. Identify and compare with yourself, but that's a concept and we're living in reality. And in reality, we do that. So of course we want to get to the point where we're not comparing, but that takes work. So in this moment, when I am comparing, I would really like some literature to compare to. I find it. So that's why I chose to spend the first portion of the book showing, well, this is kind of how it started and here's how I kind of always knew, but didn't really do anything until it was much too late and which is everyone's story. But I wanted to see it mapped out in a way that I hadn't seen it done before. And. I never intended to write a book. So I just made it up as I went to. So it just kind of happened organically that way. There was a lot of thought and calculation, but, at the same time, I had no clue what I was doing.

Steve: 7:41

Well, it worked out, it reminded me of that. They'd say you hear a lot, like in the rooms of like, you know, at first it was just fun, then it was fun with problems, then it was probably. Fun. And then it was just problems and it definitely that's what the ramp up for your book definitely reminded me of

Charlie: 7:57

most certainly is that's yes, yes.

Steve: 8:00

Yeah. Now, in the beginning of the book, when you were in your twenties, you, you mentioned having to expect it to be further, to have achieved more. And that really resonated for me because I went through that same kind of feeling in my twenties. But where do you think those feelings came from and how did they affect your.

Charlie: 8:18

This, I love this question. Okay. Who you're getting again? They fall on me. Well obviously, you know, there's, there's socioeconomics and culture at play there where your, you know, my, my upbringing was obviously. Very particular, you know, go to go to high school, get good grades, go to a good college, get good grades, be this actor, you know, it was all very mapped out. And I thought I'm taking all these right steps in my youth to really set myself up for my adulthood. And. I didn't handle it. Well, I didn't handle the pressure whenever all of that collapsed and didn't come true for me. I wasn't able to just go out and get the job and be successful that I saw a lot of people around me doing, and I just felt very lacking. And I knew that, of course I had the most luxurious, unfortunate problems because I had a roof over my head and I had a job, but spiritually. And emotionally nothing was being fulfilled. And so I was just like, I'm, I'm doing everything wrong. I have to be because everyone around me is thriving. And I'm just pretending like I am when I'm not at all, I'm drinking massive amounts of vodka. And if you've got pills, let me eat them. And I'll smoke that weed too. So. What I didn't realize is that where a lot of us addiction or not, you know, in recovery or not, a lot of us are doing that. A lot of us are faking it because we've created this atmosphere in this culture of you need to look or do these certain things or where you haven't succeeded and you're not going to succeed. And you're a failure. And that was really hard on me in my twenties. And yeah. Compounded with the alcoholism and some other things, you know, with my youth that I talk about in my, on my book, everything was just coming to a head in my early twenties and I was not emotionally equipped to handle it. So I drank and I had a genetic component already, you know, I was predisposed to be an alcoholic. So it was just. Shit show, man. W do you cuss on here or you do cuss on here, but I just feel when you're doing it, sometimes

Steve: 10:45

I'm like,

Charlie: 10:45

I've heard him drop the F bomb, but I'll try to keep my mouth clean.

Steve: 10:50

Nope. I always go to earn that explicit rating. I check off. It's just easier to check it out there.

Charlie: 10:55

Yeah, I'll just say, fuck then we'll just get it out of the way.

Steve: 10:59

Yeah. And one section where like I deeply related, even though it was kind of just a throwaway paragraph, so to speak, as you mentioned, having vague memories of sleeping with a couple on camera for money. And it really resonated me cause I remember in my early twenties and like, even like before I was able to get alcohol, a lot of times I found myself in very similar situations in order to get. And I used to like kind of joke, like, oh, well I guess, like I just can't run for president and like, let it kind of roll off my back. But only like now in my sobriety, my realizing like how deeply fucked up a lot of it was

Charlie: 11:28

yeah.

Steve: 11:29

So fucked up. Yes. So, I mean, why was it important for you to include experiences like this and how has the reception been to it?

Charlie: 11:38

I think it hearkens back to what we were talking about earlier is I wanted to put the nasty, dirty things I had done in there because I wanted to know Pete. I wanted for people to know that they were okay, that they weren't alone and they weren't wronged. So if I was going to have to air a bit of my dirty laundry, And maybe get some flag or some pushback from that. I was willing to handle that because I knew there would be so many louder voices thanking me for it. That would drown out all the bullshit chatter. So I knew I had to get that in there and it also speaks to, you know, very rarely did I have to. To do things such as that. I mean, I talk about having to make up lies and pander at a point in the book for money so I can get some podcasts and pickles and then sleeping with these guys. I don't know. I I'm. I know I didn't need the money right then, but if they were offering it, of course, my mind was always leading with, you've got to have some money because you've got to have vodka. So I wanted to show the desperation that we go to whenever we maybe don't even need to maybe right in that moment, I didn't need that money, but I knew I was going to need it because of how severe and controlling my disease was over me. And then. As for the reception. I think, I think I've been extremely fortunate. The majority of my life to, to have my homosexuality men met with I've never really experienced too much pushback. And I grew up in a very rural small town. So how I bypassed that? I don't know. But I, I just haven't. As many experiences, as I think a lot of, of people in my situation have had. So I'm very grateful for that. And I really haven't had any. That I'm aware of, perhaps nobody's saying it to my face and they're not, they're not posting it on Amazon or anything, but I had, I haven't had anything too bad about the gayness of it. I was worried about that just because I do live in the Midwest and I did not grow up on a coast in a city. We were just gay and it was okay. And, you know, so I have a very different perspective of what it means to operate and function as a gay man in society. I have a very different I think view of what my sexuality is and, and what, and how much of it is. Is presented like how much I presented my sexuality. I'm not being very articulate right now.

Steve: 14:18

Certainly are. And I, I understand. I mean, I grew up, I grew up on long island, which is like just off of New York and so many times like, everyone's like, oh, it must've been so easy for you, but you know, there were still some difficulties, but yeah, on the whole, like, I didn't have any sort of like horrific experiences or, you know, the, the worst reactions to my coming out were like within the family and not just like strangers off the.

Charlie: 14:39

Yeah. And I think also what I knew was maybe I wasn't in a city where I could just be gay and be so proud of it. I also knew that this mentality that there's so much hate in the south or the Midwest is also perpetuated a bit. I have come into contact with a lot of Southern country boys that are my friends and, and are supportive of me being gay. So in writing this, I knew of course, it's going to go one of two ways. It's going to violently offend people or they're going to understand it. But like I said, I knew that there were going to be so many more people that understood it. And even if it was a straight male reading, That I had slept with men for money on camera, having been as involved in the recovery community as I've been for as long as I've been in the rooms for as long as I've been, those guys don't care. They don't care if it's with a woman, with a man, most of them have, you know, we've all just done absurd things so that they don't care. They're reading it because they need to see, he could not stop relapsing. I don't care if he slept with a dude. So they were always leading me as well. I was always writing for my people. Even when I was putting things in that were like, you sure you want to say that? I was like, yes, I do, because they need to read it. So I'm very proud and protective of us.

Steve: 16:07

Yes, no. And, and like I said, I mean, w even though it was just like one small paragraph, like I was underlining, like parts that spoke to me in that, like entire paragraph. I was like, I've been there and like, it, it helps when you're reading through these experiences. I mean, so much of what you went through was. Was more, well, it was different than what I went through. But you know, when I was able to really relate to it, that was one of those sections.

Charlie: 16:30

Yeah, it's different, but it's the same, right? Like I think that's how, and we talk about that in the rooms. And we talk about that in group therapy and rehab, it's all different, but it's all the same. Yes,

Steve: 16:41

exactly. Yeah. And I loved getting to read about your experiences in the variety of rehabs and treatment centers, because that's not an experience that I had, so I did get. Learn more about what those can be like. You spent the majority of those chapters and section of the book, talking about your experiences at the Palm beach retreat reflections, and then a combo of simple recovery and a psychiatric ward in Wichita. Now, out of all of the places you've been and programs you've been through, why did you choose to focus on those?

Charlie: 17:13

Well, again, very calculated. Here's where the calculation came in. So. When I write about Palm beach retreat, that is actually two rehabs merged into one. There's a little bit like in the copyright section of the first few pages where I have a blurb of like, Hey, I've, I've put these two treatment centers together, Palm beach retreat. Let me back up. I also want to say, cause I've had a lot of questions and I haven't really had. The format. Cause I did a bunch of podcasts, right. When it came out and then it's come out and everyone's read it and then I've had these questions and I haven't had the, the like the platform to answer something. So I'm going to use your excellent to answer something. I get a lot of questions of why are the rehab chapters so long? Let me clear something up for you. Rehab felt really long to me because those were the only times I were. So I was sober and I spent a lot of time in rehab detox and psych wards. So I needed the reader to be like, why are we in here for so long? Because that's how I felt. And then my relapses, everything is just like I was blackout. So those years moved very quick. So there's backup Fu I've wanted to explain that. Okay. Thank you. The second reason. Yes, I combine those two rehabs and Palm beach retreat. They were my first two experiences with real rehabs that wanted to help you, that had 12 step and CBT, and really just offered you like this smorgasbord of recovery to be like, what's going to help you. It was important for me to write about those because that's when the idea of recovery really got into my heart and soul and mind of like, okay, you've got something severely wrong with you. And here's some avenues of maybe how you can adjust and fix it. Reflections was chosen because it was. By that time, I was starting to give up on myself. I had been to rehab and detox so many times, and I was so angry that I really wanted to write about that point because. I am not that uncommon. A lot of us have been to multiple rehabs. There's a whole audience of people that have been to three plus more rehabs, you know? So by the time we get into four or five and six were mad, we're so mad. And it was important for me to write about that because I wanted, again, I wanted people to feel like they weren't wrong and that they weren't alone. And then the reason for the psych ward in Wichita that's because I was at like, that was the lowest, I don't even know who I was at that point. I almost lost myself. Like that was, I can understand now why addiction takes life. I fully understand why you're like, fuck it. I step I'm out. I'm done. I cannot beat this. It's beaten me. I don't want to play anymore. So I get it. So it was important for me to write about that. And then. The reason I didn't cover everything is because I'm writing more. But I think you have a question for me later, so I'll sit on that for a second.

Steve: 20:27

Yeah. And that leads right into it. I mean, were there any rehabs or places you receive treatment that you didn't include? But either like wish you'd had or saving for something, you know, in the future that still had a profound effect on your recovery?

Charlie: 20:39

Yes, I'm actually in right before you and I started chatting, I was actually writing. I seen before I hopped on, there's a rehab that I'm writing about right now that I went to in Arkansas or an Arkansas and Kansas. I never went to one in Arkansas. I don't know why I said that. I went to in Kansas, very profound effect on me as a man and within my identity. So I purposefully kept that out of, at least I'm not the frog, knowing that. About halfway through a variety. And at least I know I'm not the frog. I thought, okay, if this, if this sells a certain amount of books, if I sell a certain amount of books, then I'm going to allow myself to kind of branch out into this little recovery world of books that I would like to create, because I see that there's a lot of authors doing that. There's about three or four authors that are doing that. But again, I don't see. Providing the content that I was ever wanting. So I found a little gap. I'm going to try to exploit it in the market. So that's, that's what I'm doing. This, I'm working on this novella now that's about this, this rehab and this experience that I had It obviously didn't do anything for my sobriety because I went back out for multiple years. But what it did for me along my journey of my identity of who I am as a person was extraordinarily profound. So I want to get that out there and to also show that you can have these epiphany recovery can take you 11 years. You can have these Epiphanes along the road and you can fall. That doesn't mean that, that knowledge. I discovered before the relapse is now somehow invalidated because I relapsed, I can still take that knowledge along with me. So I think it's important to get that, that concept out there as well. Like don't throw it all away just because you're angry at yourself because you relapse, bro, like, come on. Yeah.

Steve: 22:40

Well, I'm glad to hear that there will be more Charlie gray out there in the publishing world. Yeah, small,

Charlie: 22:46

strong smoke drugs and bottles from me.

Steve: 22:49

Now, what have some of the positive changes in your life? Ben, now that you're living sober and I publish this book.

Charlie: 22:58

You know, it's gonna sound everything. I say, I feel like, sounds like a cliche hallmark movie, but that's all right. I am so proud of myself and I wasn't proud of myself for a long time and I didn't think I was ever going to be proud of myself. And I was okay with that. So that's really fucked up do, but yeah, that's what it's given me is this sense of pride. And then it's also given me this sense of buoyancy, of like, Yeah, because of course you always worry and wonder, especially someone like me who has spent 11 years relapsing. And I actually just the other day, just two days ago, I actually had a moment of like, I've never, I am getting into such uncharted territory. This is insane. Not only have I gone over a year sober, but now I have a book out and I have people that are listening to me. And I have people that are wanting me to write more and I'm writing more. It's a mind boggling, and that is such a beautiful gift that you don't even know. I mean, you hear it in the room. It's like, you don't even know how great your life, but you don't believe that shit. At least I didn't. And. And then it happened like, fuck, that's like Christmas every day. Bores.

Steve: 24:16

Yes. Well, speaking of hallmark movies I knew while I was reading that I was wrong to ship you with some of the menu encountered during the book, but I couldn't help it because of the romantic in me. Did you, did you have any rehab romances you left out?

Charlie: 24:28

Well, did I? Yes. I mean, of course I did. I'm trying to think nothing that, cause I haven't written about a couple of rehabs that I'm going to there's there's something coming up in, in the novel, the novella it's called the, the frog in the bottle. And there, there is something coming up in that. And then there's Jace of course from at least I'm not the frog. That was a much more intense relationship. Then I got into. In the memoir. I know that it, that people are picking up on that. I've had a couple of readers, like write me and be like, were you in love with Jace? And I've been like, yes, yes I was. So yeah, I definitely had some rehab romances that, I mean, everyone does don't they, well, I guess if you haven't been to rehab, you wouldn't know, but those of us that get on the rehab circuits Yeah. Usually fall in love. Cause it's trauma bonding, it's drama, bonding, it's detox meds and it's close quarters, man. That's what it

Steve: 25:25

is. Yeah. I mean, what's dating and recovery like now for you.

Charlie: 25:30

I have not dated in recovery, actually. I have remained. So I, I finally, when I decided to get sober, you know, I don't, I'm going to take that back when I was able to. Be receptive to the message that my higher power was sending and sobriety came as a result of that, I felt. And I write about this too. Like I thought, you know, do what you've been told to do for seven years, like listen to what other people have done that have gotten sober. So I took the first year rule very seriously and, and my recovery I mean, I didn't, I hadn't been in a relationship for several years before that, so it's pretty damn easy to take it pretty seriously when I've been dating a fucking vodka bottle for a decade. So yeah, I, I haven't been dating, I don't know. He hit me up. Maybe I'm so busy. I don't meet today.

Steve: 26:34

Well, you heard it listeners. If you wanted to slide into Charlie's DMC, you have the ad later on at the end. Now, if you could give one piece of advice to someone who is newly sober or sober, curious, what would it be?

Charlie: 26:50

To be so patient loving and forgiving with yourself. I think there's this home mentality that I'm really trying to crush with my writing of, you got to get it relapses, the devil we can have relapsed, like just fuck all that. I'm so sick of it. I'm going to stand here. I'm not trying to tell you to relapse, but I'm just trying to say that it happens and if it does it's all right. Go get back up, go to a meeting and go to a detox, call someone, do something, but don't, don't fester. Don't stew in it. We've got to start talking about it more and not with such shame and give it a chance to give sobriety a chance. Give it a month. The first month is terrible. I know. And you can be angry and bitch, and that's fine, but give it a chance. Yeah,

Steve: 27:36

certainly. And what are some of the things that you do to help yourself stay? So.

Charlie: 27:43

What's really important to me to stay sober is to remain grateful and mindful. So I constantly try at least daily to two. And now it's really just happening organically, I think because I've implemented, implemented it for so long. It's just say I am grateful for, and then it just kind of bubbles up. And then that keeps me in such a, a place of humility that. That translates to me. Just being happy. Yeah. It's really nice.

Steve: 28:16

Yeah. I, I couldn't agree more. That's why I always start the episode with like a gratitude or a positive affirmation is to kind of just help kind of center myself before getting into it all. Yeah,

Charlie: 28:26

it works. It works.

Steve: 28:28

Yeah. And as recovered addicts, we really love our steps, traditions and sayings. What's been your favorite mantra or quote that you live with.

Charlie: 28:38

I, so whenever I've got my own mantra that I tell myself every day, but to keep it, you know, to the rooms, I really, I like easy does it. And I like one day at a time because it used to piss me the fuck off, like AA used to make. So, and so many of us were so angry in the beginning at AA and that's because we needed something to be angry at and AA can take it. So that one day at a time, just because I hated it so much, but now I just, I get it and I love it. And then my personal mantra is just, I say it every night before I go to bed. And I say it a lot throughout the day. It's just, thank you, please help. It just really. It keep, it makes me feel like I'm acknowledging, you know, thank you for all of this and please help me and then please help me do whatever I can to help others. I think it's just simple and concise, but very impactful.

Steve: 29:39

Yeah. No, I love that. Now you've already hinted at a little bit about what's in your pipeline, but overall what's next for Charlie gray?

Charlie: 29:48

Yeah. So spring of 2022. The frog and the bottle as zany, novella of relapse and rehab. That's what I'm working on now. So I'll be writing that over, like the holiday. So then there'll be like so nice and Christmasy, and I'll just be writing about drugs and booze. No, it'll be great. That's that's in the pipeline and. That's about it. You know, I've got a couple other podcasts and I'm still just trying to spread the message and, and get it out there that you're not wrong. And you're not alone. If you can't quit drinking or using drugs.

Steve: 30:26

Yeah. Yes. You certainly are. Not. Now, why don't you spend some time here at the end, promoting yourself where and how can they follow you and find your book?

Charlie: 30:36

Yes. Okay, perfect. So my book, you can go to amazon.com or if you're listening to this internationally, you probably know how to get to your enemy. Just type in, at least I'm not the frog, Charlie gray. That's the easiest way. Gray is spelled G R a Y and it'll pop right up. You can purchase your copy. You can go to, at least I'm not the frog.com. That's my website. It'll have some information for you. And if you want to slide into my DMS or follow me on Instagram, I am. At his majesty, Charles, the third, which I should really probably change to be something to do with like frogs, but I just, I made it so long ago and it was so cheeky that I can't let go of it because my, I am a third. So it's this whole like play on words with the current trials anyways. That's more than you needed. No,

Steve: 31:30

that works perfectly. I'll make sure I include all of those in the show notes or people can click over a type over a for reference. So thank you so much for, for being on and thank you all, all of you listeners for listening. Please make sure you rate and review if you found this information helpful. If you're interested in sharing your story, like Charlie here, getting involved with the show or just saying hi, you can email me@gaypodcastatgmail.com and make sure you follow us wherever you're listening to so you can get new episodes when they come out every Monday and Thursday. Thank you again, Charlie. Thank you. Yes. And until next time stay sober friends.