007 - Overthinking Everything in Campus Housing | Jasmine Jennings and Sara Frick [Book Club]

Today our guests use the book Soundtracks: The Surprising Solution to Overthinking as a vehicle to discuss those inevitable rabbit holes within our mind that every campus housing professional has fallen down at one time or another. Our guests today are two self-described overthinkers, Jasmine Jennings and Sara Frick, who reveal an important truth: you aren’t the only person overthinking your work in campus housing. Takeaways directly from the book include overthinking as a dial versus a switch and questions we should be asking when we find ourselves overthinking things. From there, they provide plenty of real examples related to working in campus housing and cover a range of topics including toxic positivity, imposter syndrome, committee work, performance evaluations, office culture, and the additional overthinking associated with navigating the work environment as a Person of Color. Even if you haven’t read the book, I’m sure you’ll find something to overthink about within this episode.

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Transcript Available!
In February at the 2022 Annual Conference, the SWACUHO Executive Board approved additional funding for the podcast to be allocated for transcription services. This is the first episode to have a transcript provided for people who would like to read the conversation. Moving forward, all episodes will be released with a transcript and all past episodes will have a transcript uploaded by the end of March. 
 

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People, Places, and Things Mentioned in This Episode

Soundtracks: The Surprising Solution to Overthinking [Book]

Baylor University [University Website]

Southern Methodist University [University Website]

The University of Texas at Arlington [University Website]

Make Your Bed (Admiral McRaven – UT Austin Commencement Address 2014) [YouTube Video]

The University of Texas at Austin [University Website]

“It’s Just a Job” [News Article]

Beyoncé [Instagram]

Taylor Swift [Instagram]

Michelle Obama [Instagram]

Upstream: The Quest to Solve Problems Before They Happen [Book]

Understanding the Expectations of Students with Autism to Increase Satisfaction with the On-Campus Living Experience [Journal Article]

Transcript

J.C. Stoner: 0:00

Welcome to the SWACUHO podcast. I'm your host, J.C. Stoner. Today we are talking about overthinking things. So if you're someone who tends to overthink things, this episode is sure to validate that you aren't the only one. Our guests today discuss the book Soundtracks: The Surprising Solution to Overthinking by Jon Acuff. We apply the concepts to the housing work environment with plenty of real examples with the hope of articulating how we can all flip our personal thought processes to be more productive rather than diving headfirst down the rabbit hole of negative and unproductive thoughts. I'm not going to overthink this intro so let's jump right in. Our first guest is Jasmine Jennings, who serves as the Assistant Director for the Dedman College Interdisciplinary Institute at Southern Methodist University. Jasmine was born and raised in Detroit, Michigan, and says she will forever be a Detroiter! Jasmine went to Bowling Green State University and Mississippi State University for undergraduate and graduate schoolwork. Jasmine formerly worked in housing at Baylor University and is now happily enjoying her time living on at Southern Methodist University's campus with her fiance who is also a res lifer! Jasmine, welcome to the show.

Jasmine Jennings: 1:12

Thank you for having me. I'm glad to be here.

J.C. Stoner: 1:15

Our second guest today is Sara Frick, who is a sixth year professional currently working at the University of Texas at Arlington as an Assistant Director for Apartment and Residence Life. Sara's background in higher ed has been from both private and public institutions working for residence life and she is very passionate about the student experience on campus. Sara loves to read and read more than 50 books in 2021. Sara, welcome to the show.

Sara Frick: 1:43

Thanks. J.C. Thanks for having me.

J.C. Stoner: 1:46

So what are your overall general impressions of the book Soundtracks?

Sara Frick: 1:51

Overall, I think that the concept of the book is really fascinating. And I think that's something that everybody can relate to, you know, everybody overthinks things. Especially since reading the book, I've noticed a lot of like, Sara, you're overthinking this, and it becomes more aware to you, those things. And so I think overall, the concept is fascinating. I think there's some really good things that we can dive into a little bit more on how people overthink and what that looks like. But yes, overall, the concept is great. I think maybe some of the practicality will be interesting to dive into of what is practical pieces or things that you can take away from it. But I think depending on the person, some people would find it super practical, and other people might find it not. But the concepts are very fascinating.

J.C. Stoner: 2:45

Yeah, I found the practicality like you similar in the sense of like a lot of the examples were about writing a book and being a best seller, which, when you break down is a little bit hard to translate to our work in campus housing. I think there's plenty of good examples that I was able to easily say, Oh, we can slide insert campus housing in here, but it was a little touchy feely or like, a little too positive for my personality. But I think there's also value in exploring that which I challenged myself to do.

Sara Frick: 3:18

Yes, definitely.

Jasmine Jennings: 3:20

Hopefully, I am not the devil's advocate on the podcast today.

J.C. Stoner: 3:26

Please be if you are.

Jasmine Jennings: 3:29

So I think overall, the book provided, you know, general solutions to overthinking. But I did not see myself represented in this type of overthinking and in the book. And I also think the author didn't acknowledge bias systems and how that affects overthinking. And so when I think about myself as a Black woman, and like things I am told as a Black woman, like that makes me overthink. And I think the concepts that he talked about on a surface level were good, but I wish he would have dug deeper to address some of the things that I experienced that causes my type of overthinking.

J.C. Stoner: 4:08

Yeah, I'm glad you brought that up, because I tried to process with the practicality of like, how it translates forever is like, I really felt it wasn't like there was some of that, like, oh, you're a best selling author and you know, sounds like you've had a real challenging life or like these things. Not really, but so I'm glad you brought that up. And I definitely hope that we can dive into that a little bit more. I also think that while it was not my favorite book I've ever read that I think it's like conference presentations where sometimes you go to one that's just not good. But you can still take something from it. Whether or not the content was what you expected.

Sara Frick: 4:48

Oh, yeah, definitely. I as I said, you know, I kept thinking through"Oh, like, are you overthinking?" and I think regardless of what I pulled from the book, I think it allowed me to take some focus on how I'm overthinking things, and then how I can personally work on it myself, whether that's practical things from the book he talks about, or other ways in which I want to do that. So I do think that there's something that you could easily pull away from this book for sure.

J.C. Stoner: 5:14

Great. So why are we talking about soundtracks in our heads?

Sara Frick: 5:18

The author uses this analogy of soundtracks similar I can't remember if it's an interview, I heard with the to songs in a movie and the soundtracks of that and music that you listen to that that is, the internal... your thoughts are your internal soundtrack in your life so and that even more so than music, you listen to your thoughts all day, every day. And so that plays an impact on your attitude. So if you listen to a really crappy song over and over again, it's going to put you in a bad mood, if you are listening to good songs, it's gonna put you in a better mood. So he kind of uses this analogy of the soundtracks for your thoughts and how you're going through your day-to-day, and how that impacts your actions and your life. author or it was in the book, but I remember hearing or seeing that if you think about just in a movie, a house. It's the soundtrack that really shapes the narrative of what's about to happen. Like if it's fun loving music, it's like, oh, we're in a rom com. But if it's like, creepy, scary music, then it's like, oh, here we are at a horror movie, and that the picture doesn't change. But the soundtrack shifts the context of what is actually going to be going on. Yeah, very true. They say, you know, if you I don't like scary movies, so I don't watch them. But I've heard you know, if you watch a scary movie without noise, it's not scary at all, because half or more of the scare of those movies comes from the music.

J.C. Stoner: 6:54

Well, yeah, that's a perfect illustration of why we need to be mindful of the soundtracks we're playing in our head. Because if we remove that, then things aren't as bad or they're going just fine. But we're deferring it to what a negative outcome that isn't necessarily the case. So I think that's a perfect illustration.

Sara Frick: 7:15

Yeah, definitely.

J.C. Stoner: 7:16

So what are some real examples of broken soundtracks you've heard in campus housing?

Jasmine Jennings: 7:22

I actually wrote some down that I heard from past colleagues that I think it will be worth exploring. So some of the ones I wrote down were "my residents or RAs don't like me like other hall directors", "I'm bad at my job because I'm not chairing the most important committee in my department." "I don't deserve to work in a new residence hall like a brand new one, because it was given to another RHD." And then I think the, I think, in thinking about COVID, and all the things that have been happening, "I can't apply for another job, I'll be abandoning my students or abandoning my department." I think those are the most consistent ones that I've heard since my time in residence life. I don't know if y'all have experienced those either.

Sara Frick: 8:10

Yeah, I can definitely relate to those, I think a common thread with a lot of those that you are saying Jasmine, is that comparison piece, I feel like oh, compared to other RDs, or HDs, you know, this is where I stand, oh, compared to other committees and things like that. And, you know, not every job or field has a lot of people on one level in the way that universities that have hall directors. And so I think that that plays an interesting piece in comparison and how that leads to people to overthink their position and their job.

Jasmine Jennings: 8:47

And you know, probably doesn't help either that, you know, you live where you work. And so you see up close and personal what all these things look like. And I think with being Residence Hall Director specifically, it's, I don't want to say people feel like it's a competition, but I feel like that's it. And so because you see all these things up close and personal. You know, these are like your built in friends. So you cannot help but not only see what's happening to them professionally, but also see what's happening to them personally and think, Oh, I'm not there yet. Or I'm not you know, insert whatever the "not" is.

J.C. Stoner: 9:25

Yeah, definitely. I think the the competition piece is absolutely a good point. It's like somebody has something I don't so either it's a deficit of my ability or, you know, a privilege of another person or whatever that might be, but it spins down that rabbit hole of I'm never going to be good enough because I didn't get this one committee assignment. So why would I try harder for the next time around when there could be 100 different reasons. I love those. The one I'd love to think about. I'm bad at my job because I'm not chairing the hot committee or however you phrased it, like, that's gold right there, I would have never thought about that one. But it's like, it's the hot committee to you. But there's I know, tons of people who don't want to be the chair of the training committee, or recruitment committee or whatever it is, and now they're doing it. It's like,"uhhhhhh...."

Jasmine Jennings: 10:16

But you know what, though, I think a lot of it depends on what the department places value on what they assume the department places value on, but also to like training, for example, if you are chairing that, then the resident advisors, the Resident Assistants see you doing the set action. And so, you know, the the student staff don't necessarily see what goes on behind the scenes. So like to you it may seem like this is the hot committee, but like you said, for a couple others, they're like, I don't want to do it.

J.C. Stoner: 10:54

Yeah. But then it's like, I'm in this position. I don't want to do it, then I do I need it must be nice to be in a chair of a committee, you don't want to be on that everybody else does. And the author talks about "must be nice", quite a bit.

Sara Frick: 11:07

You know, I think there is a couple that come to my mind. One specifically for our live-on positions. I think that balance and struggle of I live where I work, and should I be out in the lobby of my building. And if I am not, then maybe my residents or my RAs, they don't think that I am invested or that I care or they don't think I work because I'm trying to set up these boundaries for my personal life and my personal well being. And I think that that is often a big soundtrack of if I'm not active and present 100% of the time in my hall, I'm a bad Residence Director or Hall Director, whatever you call it at your institution.

J.C. Stoner: 11:53

Definitely. And one I think that I caught when we were chatting before we started recording was the comment and I hear it all the time is like, it's housing, anything can happen. And that soundtrack then plays is like, my day is going to suck or it's going to be chaotic, because well, it's housing. And that's just the way it is. And I think that's a soundtrack that can certainly be unpacked.

Sara Frick: 12:15

Yes, definitely. And I think at some point in the book, I don't remember, but he listed, you know, an example of that, we start our day, you wake up and you already are thinking all the things that I need to accomplish for the day. And there's not enough time in that day to accomplish everything. So you automatically start off on the wrong foot. And you have this bad attitude, because I don't have enough time to get done everything. And how accurate is that, especially for housing and or you come into your office and you have your whole plan for what you're going to do. And then you have a student in crisis. And now you need to shift all your focus over that way. And so that can really change your mindset for how your day is going to go.

J.C. Stoner: 12:59

Definitely. And former chancellor of the UT System, Admiral McRaven, gave a speech at UT Austin's commencement a number of years ago and talked about the value of making your bed and what you just said made me think of this and how he talks about if you make your bed first thing in the morning, you automatically start with a victory and one small goal is accomplished, which then leads to accomplishing another and another and another. And I think that's one way to reframe that soundtrack of, you know, wake up in the morning, and it's like, Oh, I've just got so many things to do. I'll never get them done. It's like, oh, well, I've taken control of my destiny. And I've made my bed and that one small step has set me on a path to productivity today. What about performance evaluations? I imagine there's a lot of people out there that probably have various soundtracks, either like, "Oh, I'm going to my performance evaluation, it's going to be the best" or more likely than not,"yeah, it's going to be terrible."

Sara Frick: 13:54

Yes! And you spend, and I think that the overthinking, you spend so much time leading up to this, okay, I'm going to have my evaluation, I'm going to sit down with my supervisor, and they're going to tell me all these ways that I really am horrible, or all these things. And then you sit down and obviously it's a performance eval, you're gonna have areas of growth, but more than likely, you sit down and there's a lot of affirmation in what you're doing well, and the positivity of that. And so I know, I've definitely been in those situations, and maybe not specifically evals, although I'm sure I've over thought evaluations, but those conversations with supervisors where it's like, I know, I'm gonna have this tough conversation because I was supposed to do XYZ and I didn't, and then the conversation is very, "okay, well, you know, yeah, for next time, make sure you do this," and I built it up to be this big, huge thing. "Oh, my goodness, I'm going to spend hours unpacking this with my supervisor. They're gonna think I'm a horrible human." And the same thing. Yeah, and then you get to evals and you dread about it, and then really, you "okay, this is where we're at and then we're gonna move on to that."

J.C. Stoner: 15:02

I remember this one time. And I don't even remember what the situation was. A boss of mine asked, like, "can you tell me about this oversight?" Or "what happened with this oversight?" And it was in that moment, right then and there, it's like, here we are. We're gonna talk about this for 30 minutes. I was like, "well... it was an oversight, just like you said." And the conversation was done. Like, there wasn't anything else to unpack or like, you know, developmentally process for 30 minutes. It was like, oh, okay, there we go. Yeah. Moving on.

Sara Frick: 15:30

Yes. You're like "I spent days worrying about this conversation." And it was done in 90 seconds.

J.C. Stoner: 15:37

Yeah, right. Exactly. I think that leads to another thing that it's like, do we really think you go into your performance evaluation... We thought about it for days and days and days, like, oh, it's been on my calendar for a week. And now I got to do this and all these soundtracks playing in our head about it, and then it like, goes just fine. And yeah, like you said, some areas of growth and a lot of affirmation. And then, do we ever stop and think like, was it really worth all the time I invested thinking about that? And the negativity? I don't think people are processing that or if they are, it's very difficult to not do it again.

Sara Frick: 16:10

Yes, that's so true. It's even though you almost always will come away from that. And I know I've even before reading this book, I'm like, I put way too much energy into thinking that through. But yet you find yourself every single time you're in a similar situation doing the exact same thing.

J.C. Stoner: 16:26

Is there such a thing as productive overthinking?

Jasmine Jennings: 16:30

So I'd say yes and no. Yes, because as someone that is an overthinker, it gets you mentally prepared for all the obstacles that could come your way. So not saying that that's a good thing, or a bad thing. But it just gets you mentally, and maybe even emotionally prepared if something bad does happen. But on the flip side, is it good for your mental and emotional health? No. So is it productive? Technically, yes. But technically no.

Sara Frick: 17:03

I feel like almost like you can find the silver lining to not real positive action, like oh, you can get to see lots of different outcomes, or it can help you think through but what is the other outcomes or negativity that impacts

J.C. Stoner: 17:16

Well, and I think the positivity piece is what I'm people. The point in the book that he makes about along these lines is turning those broken soundtracks into positive soundtracks and turning those positive soundtracks into action and taking tangible steps to do things. not, I don't outwardly emote very much. And I'm not necessarily the most positive appearing person in most contexts. But I'm not like a negative person. So that the overwhelming positivity behind it was a little disconcerting for me, and I hear the term like"toxic positivity" quite a bit these days. And that phrase always bothers me just a little bit in terms of like, I don't know, if it's toxic, I get why people are saying that, but is it more unproductive than toxic? is how I kind of like process that in my head?

Jasmine Jennings: 18:16

JC to your point, I think I may have maybe not explanation, but just an alternative thought.

J.C. Stoner: 18:24

Sure!

Jasmine Jennings: 18:25

Maybe toxicity may not be the word. But what I think about is like you experience positivity in a vacuum. And so you think about the silver linings, you think of all the good, the fluffy things, the sweet things, the candy things, but you don't think about it in context to the world and what's actually happening in reality. And so I think it's a coping mechanism. So people don't think about that, which again, isn't a bad thing. But if you negate the reality, then it kind of does become toxic, because you're ignoring what's actually happening. I hope that makes sense.

J.C. Stoner: 19:06

That does. I love that. Yes, I think yeah, that's again, it's something I've never been able to like articulate. But I think you're absolutely right. So I really appreciate that. There is a cyclical nature to our thoughts and actions, where each informs the others. This is why it's so important to like replace, or change broken soundtracks. Any thoughts around the cyclical nature of them?

Jasmine Jennings: 19:32

I do agree with this. And this may be a little deep, so you could tell me to get back a couple feet. I do agree with this. And this makes me

J.C. Stoner: 19:41

We love it. think about what we talk about in the Black community about generational curses, in the sense that, you know, a parent does something and this somehow in some way you replicate that experience and then you pass it on to your children, until somebody breaks that generational curse. And that takes a lot of self work, a lot of self awareness. It takes, you know, a lot of seeking help and resources from other people. But that's a lot of heavy lifting to do, and you have to be committed to doing it. So I agree with that statement. Because if you are contained in the same cycle, you're going to breed the same results, maybe in different components or different aspects of your life. But you have to be really intentional. Now, I don't think it's as simple as changing a soundtrack. I think it's a component of breaking that cycle. Yeah, if only it were that simple, right?

Sara Frick: 20:45

Yeah, I think being able to turn things into actions. And that piece, I think is more important than necessarily the soundtrack piece, I get that the soundtrack and how positive you are and how you are speaking to yourself impacts your actions. But I think the action part, in my opinion, is a little bit more important in breaking that cyclical nature of negative soundtracks.

J.C. Stoner: 21:14

The author suggests a strategy of exploring your soundtracks with three questions. What's the first question a listener should ask themselves when they identify a negative soundtrack?

Sara Frick: 21:25

The first question is, "is it true?" So asking, what is the validity behind that thought and being able to maybe debunk with those other you know, I'm trying to give a good example, or something that he used,

J.C. Stoner: 21:45

I'm not going to apply for that job, because there's better applicants out there.

Sara Frick: 21:49

Yes. Good example. Yeah, there are other better applicants out there. That potentially might be there might be somebody out there better than you. But that doesn't mean that you are the worst applicant or that you're bad, or that you couldn't do the job. So speaking through some of those truths, or what, what makes you think that what's the why behind the? Is it true? So what is the validity behind that? And why are you starting to think those things about yourself?

Jasmine Jennings: 22:20

You know, I will say, I will give the author credit that I actually do ask myself, "Is it true?" I don't know if the two of you experienced this. But when I'm having a thought I had to ask myself, "Is this my emotions telling me this? Or did this like action actually happen?" And so I even do this with in my friendships and with my significant other, like, if I'm feeling a certain way, I really need to sit down and marinate on it before I vocalize the feeling because I know with my overthinking it kind of well, and he talks about in the book, it really does play tricks on you. And so you really do have to ask yourself, "is this is real? Or am I making this up?"

Sara Frick: 23:04

I really liked in the book when he talked about when they did a study where they asked people about a significant event. And then later on, I don't remember how many years it was or whatever, but significant years later, having them recite the same thing. And that they told the story completely different. But these people firmly believed, "This is the truth. This is exactly how it happened" later on. And then they're like, "well, here's what you said years ago," and then they're like, "now I must have been lying. No... that couldn't have been me." But so what is the truth behind that versus what your mind processes and believes when you have time to overthink those things and those actions and what you believe to be true.

J.C. Stoner: 23:48

Yeah, they showed them their own journals, like in their own handwriting and said,"Well, that's my handwriting. I don't know why I would lie then. Because I'm telling the truth now."

Sara Frick: 23:58

Exactly.

J.C. Stoner: 24:00

I'm interested to hear your all's thoughts on this, there was an important point about how office culture is just a collection of soundtracks playing consistently. And sometimes they're intentional, but more often than not, they're they're accidental. And so something I'm curious about whether the truth behind office culture, then if we start breaking down office culture, it's like, are these unwritten rules actually true?

Jasmine Jennings: 24:25

They may be true for some people... but not all. And I feel like that shows up in housing specifically, is depending on what what type of residence hall you're in. That's how you know you make assumptions on if you want to be a hall director in that building because of what you heard. Like that may be true for one person I worked in that building, but when you say if you're assigned to that building, and you're like, oh, it's actually this isn't my experience, or depending on who your supervisor or supervisors or Assistant Directors are, you know, it could be "Oh, I heard this Assistant Director is like this, or I heard this Assistant Director is like this. And that may have been one person's experience, but that may not be yours. So I think there's some truth to it. But I do think the more we breed unspoken expectations like that, or if we share information like that about different components of the department, it can breed a culture like that, because everyone's under the same assumption, even if they did not experience that situation or that person or that residence hall.

J.C. Stoner: 25:35

So I think with department culture, kind of dovetailing on that it's like, I think there's an important piece if we've got like a generation of overthinkers out there on the frontlines as Hall Directors and Coordinators, like, I think there'd be value in trying to help our staff navigate those soundtracks by really processing out loud the quiet things of like, office culture, the unwritten rules, the things that matter, but we don't really talk about in terms of various things. I know when, when I was at UTA, I did a whole presentation on like, unwritten rules, or like office culture kind of things to kind of break down those things. So people weren't walking in like, "I didn't know this was a thing." And it's not really a thing, but it is because of the way we all interact. And so what do we do about it? The author suggests to find evidence, Sara, you kind of mentioned this a little bit, we go out looking for supportive evidence, whether it's true or not.

Sara Frick: 26:33

Yeah, looking for those pieces that are speaking to yourself and saying, okay, here are those examples here, those tangible things that prove you know, that that this isn't, this isn't true, this isn't my reality. And I think also that speaking positivity and kind of doing the opposite of what your brain is telling you to do.

J.C. Stoner: 26:55

And so some of that evidence is like in Jasmine's example of, I didn't want to work at this, the high conduct hall, I didn't want to work in this hall, everyone said it was going to be terrible. And then all the sudden, maybe your evidence comes after the fact where it's like, oh, it really isn't that bad. And so now the evidence is either well, this person isn't trustworthy, or has a bad attitude, or didn't have a good experience and that shaped it, or are we ever thinking things like maybe I'm just really good at my job where those problems didn't manifest, that then that evidence is building for I can take on additional challenges other people say it's impossible. But knowing something isn't true, isn't all that helpful in many cases? That's why we need to ask ourselves additional questions. I overthink individual conversations with staff and often say what I'm about to tell you is super easy for me to say, sitting on this side of your experience, but way more difficult for you living in your experiences. So what's the next question we should ask ourselves?

Jasmine Jennings: 27:54

Does it help you progress? Does it help you take action? Or does it leave you stuck in this place? In this abyss of thoughts? And I think what's interesting is as an overthinker, you can be stuck, because it's like, I'm thinking of all the possibilities. And I'm thinking of all the perspectives, and I'm stressed and now I'm tired over processing this information. So I am stuck. And now that I'm stuck, oh, is it going to look bad in my performance? Because I can't move forward?

J.C. Stoner: 28:31

The spinning wheel...

Sara Frick: 28:35

And I think that that piece to which we've we've spoken a little bit about but is also relevant in this question of is it helpful is are you just overthinking this conversation? Or is it you know, is it productive? And I think we touched on this a little bit with the toxic positivity and is there possibility to be productive while overthinking. But you know, why did you say the things that you did and sitting there and thinking through over and over again? And is there really any benefit to that? Is there anything in what you're telling yourself, that is going to aid you in the long run?

J.C. Stoner: 29:14

And then what's the last question the author suggests?

Sara Frick: 29:17

The last question is, "is it kind?" And I like he used the analogy or example of saying, like, would you say what you're saying to yourself to your friend, because you probably are not, you probably would not do that. Or at least if you are a good friend, you wouldn't be saying those things to your friend. So why say them to yourself, if you wouldn't say to somebody love and care about.

J.C. Stoner: 29:44

"Hey, best colleague of mine, you are about to have the worst performance evaluation of your life."

Jasmine Jennings: 29:51

And you know, it's interesting to think not only in housing but in student affairs in general. We spend so much time uplifting our colleagues uplifting our students, making sure that they have support, making sure that they feel valued. But when it comes to us, we have a hard time being kind to ourselves, it can be discouraging sometimes, because it's like, I know I'm kicking butt, I'm doing a good job. But I just can't get past this one hurdle? And is this really reflecting badly on my job performance? Do my students think all these terrible things about me when if you actually want to go ask students or the students that you have trusting your relationships with? They're going to say, oh, Sara, you're awesome. J.C., you're kicking butt, I will not want to live in any other residence hall but this one, or I wouldn't want to be a part of any other committee without you on it, you know? And so it's very interesting how hard we are on ourselves versus how people look at us from the outside.

J.C. Stoner: 30:51

Or those one off examples of going back to again, the problem hall that, you know, maybe it was still problematic? Well, like there was a lot of conduct and the student was like, "I'm moving out, because I didn't have a good experience, but it wasn't because of you. And my experience would have been worse, had you not been here." Where it's may not have been the Olympic gold medal, but it was, you still provided something for them that made it better. So it's not a total failure on, you know, this person's part. I think, you know, the being kind part is I also had to kind of check myself and looking at like, it wasn't necessarily being kind isn't like touchy feeling and just constant affirmation to myself. But it's more about like just not being judgmental to myself. And I think Jasmine that goes a little bit about what you were kind of going back to being kind to ourselves and others allows us to get engaged in a little risk taking behavior where if there's that psychological safety net, we're willing to extend ourselves, we're going to try a little more, or we're going to put ourselves in uncomfortable situations. And if we don't have that psychological safety, we'll kind of regress or recluse in that.

Jasmine Jennings: 32:05

And I think to that point to thre is a quote, that did actually resonate with me in the book that I think goes along with what you're saying. And the author says, "we assume we have to be tougher than that, and have the resilience of a Navy SEAL. But what is resilience other than allowing yourself to begin again, when things don't go the way you expected the first time?" So you have that psychological safety or that emotional safety, then you are going to be able to try again, you're going to be able to be resilient, and take the next steps to move forward and move beyond your overthinking. And so you're going to ask yourself these three questions. Is it true? Nope, it's not true. You know, is it helping me take action? No, so I'm going to do X action. And am I being kind to myself? No. So let me go talk to a student that I really love to help boost up my ego. So I can, you know, be resilient and try again, or take a risk.

J.C. Stoner: 32:59

I feel like being kind should just be the first question we ask ourselves, like, you know that I feel like that's the one that catches all the others that might slip through the cracks.

Sara Frick: 33:07

Yeah, we could save ourselves a lot of time if we just asked that question.

J.C. Stoner: 33:12

Would I tell this to my best friend? There was some example the book, it's like, "Would you tell your tell your best friend that they're the worst mother in the world?" No. So why are you telling yourself that? Or I'm the worst father or whatever?

Sara Frick: 33:25

Yes. So true.

J.C. Stoner: 33:27

Like that was the moment where it really hit me. It's like, yes, we do tell ourselves pretty terrible things.

Sara Frick: 33:32

Yeah. And it's so hard to break that, that cycle of doing it, it's so human nature. And I think, especially in housing, and I feel like we're very, you know, everybody is relational. We care about people. That's why we're in this field. We care about what people think. And so we take so personally a lot of our actions and how we're impacting others and, and what those relationships and things look like. So when you come into those moments of messing up, we think this is impacting more than just me. So I feel like we're a lot harder on ourselves too of saying unkind things, because it's not just ourselves, but we care so much about the impact that we have on others that I think a lot of times that feeds deeper into that kindness or lack thereof.

J.C. Stoner: 34:19

Well, I think the"I care so much" is can be problematic in some ways, because then that repeats itself where it's like, well, "I care so much that I can't take time off, because my students need me and I need to pour into them." And so then we're repeating cycles of, well, "I haven't had a day off and so long. Well, my boss has been telling me to take days off, but I just keep saying I can't" and so what then that that keeps repeating the cycle. So I think, you know, "I can't take time off" is another broken soundtrack that I hear or I've heard plenty throughout my career.

Sara Frick: 34:56

Yes, definitely.

J.C. Stoner: 34:57

And the unkind thing I would say back is like"Well, if you can't take time off and your building can't survive without you, then you've probably are not doing it right," like, trust in your staff and your supervision to like, you're a good supervisor, your people, like, you know, you've set your boss up for success because they know the issues that are going on that they can cover for you while you're gone. Like, think about it positively, if like you've done a good job,

Jasmine Jennings: 35:21

I think to that point, too, I forgot what section of the book, the author talks about this. But he talks about perfectionism, and how that plays a role into the overthinking. And it makes me think about how literally everything he just said, shows up in housing and how that's related to perfectionism. And when you are in a healthy mind state, you know, you want your staff to be able to function without you, whether it's a grad student, whether it's an undergrad student, you want to be able to communicate what's happening to your building, with your building to your supervisor, so that when when you go to the Bahamas, you know, things are going to function. And when you get back, you'll be able to take care of it. But your team got it. But I think with being in housing or residence life, you feel like you're under a microscope. And because you're under a microscope, you need to be perfect. And so when you're perfect, that means everything's functioning, and everybody's okay, and everybody's doing great. But you shouldn't feel compelled to strive for perfectionism. We want you to be competent professionals, we want you to be confident professionals, but competent and confident professionals also means you take care of yourself.

J.C. Stoner: 36:28

Yeah, number one rule take care of yourself first. A lot of the things we've kind of talked about, it's, it may seem like so easy to talk about, like oh, just turn it off, turn it off, like, oh, we'll just think different things. But the author talks about, it's not actually a switch, but it's more of like a dial. So any thoughts on how we turn down the dial or shifting away from the mindset of it's like binary, either it's on or it's off?

Sara Frick: 36:55

I liked this analogy. And I feel like it's more realistic in that sense. Because yeah, I think one day, you're not going to be like,"Okay, I know. I overthink so starting tomorrow, I will never overthink again." Like the the reality behind that is it just doesn't happen. So I think that analogy of turning down the dial, and what can we do to turn down that background noise, and to change that negativity into positivity. And he gave a lot of practical strategies of things for that, such as going for a run, creating a list, talking to a friend, I don't know that all of those are maybe the most productive. Or maybe for some people that work some people it doesn't. But I think that the concept behind it of getting yourself outside of your own head, doing something to prevent yourself from overthinking and get your mind occupied on something else. So I think that is maybe a good tip to turning down the dial. I don't know that this will work for every single person or what your guys's thoughts were on that. But I think it's accurate, you're not going to have one day just turn off a switch and stop overthinking completely. That's just not realistic.

Jasmine Jennings: 38:15

You know, I think for some people, the switch analogy works for them, and assumes that they are able to just cut it off and be done with it and then move on. I know a few people that can do that. And I wish I could do that because I wouldn't have to worry about it. But myself being an overthinker, I think a dial is more appropriate because I think for me, it shows that you have an awareness of when times are going to be stressful for you. So you're going to work a little bit harder to turn the dial sown so you are working through those thoughts that you're having in the back of your mind. And then when you work through those thoughts, then you may turn the dial up because you have tackled whatever you're tackling through. So I think the good thing about a dial is that it allows you to adjust as time progressed or as times change. Whereas with the dial, it just works for folks who are able to just shut it off. And then you know, something else happens, they could flip it on and then shut it back off. And so I think there are two distinct techniques, but I think a dial is more appropriate for overthinkers, whereas if you're not an overthinker, a switch may be more applicable.

J.C. Stoner: 39:27

Well, and I think the the switch verse dial analogy is one of those areas that I thought of in terms of, it's easier to have a switch when you're in a position of power, where you can just turn it off like any follow up conversation I have with any staff member I've ever had, like, I can easily say "I'm moving on." "We're moving on. We've talked about this, don't worry about it." And where okay, I've legitimately moved on and yet the person who doesn't have the power or the subordinate position is "Okay, I just had this follow up conversation with my boss." And we all know that like, follow up, quote, follow up conversation is just coded language for I'm in trouble or I screwed up. And so it may be a dial is more appropriate there. Whereas like, when my boss follows up with me about something she's like, "Okay, I moved on now", it's like"ughhhh..., okay, I'm glad to hear that." And that kind of helps me adjust. But it's still not a switch in that moment. So I think that there's, you know, positions of power have a little bit more latitude to be able to, or the luxury maybe, or the privilege to... Alright, the switches turned off.

Sara Frick: 40:38

Yeah. And I think too, I it probably depends on how you view that switch versus dial like, in general. I don't know that. Again, it depends on the person, but like, oh, just overthinking in general, like now I will never overthink again, that switches off versus on. But I think that kind of what you're saying J.C. in that piece of certain things. Yeah, it's like, oh, I say this thing, I'm, I don't have to worry about it anymore. It's somebody else's problem or thing that they're dealing with. And I, I talked them through it. Now I'm on to my problems. And those are the things that maybe I have to work more on the dial situation, because it's overwhelming my thoughts and my day to day and what I actively have to take care of.

Jasmine Jennings: 41:17

Yeah, J.C. I'm glad you brought that analogy up, actually. Because I think that's very true that it's present not only in housing, or residence life, but it's just present in life, like a lot of people are able to afford to just turn off certain things that are happening in the news, because it doesn't affect you, until it affects you. Whereas people that are living through this experience are living adjacent to their experience, they can't just flick it, when they feel like it, they have to deal with it. And I think that's a critique that many marginalized communities have with communities of privilege in general, like, it doesn't matter to you because you don't have to face it every day. But we have to face it every day, you know, this is my reality, I can't just walk away from it and be done with it. And I also think that shows within housing, if you are a Resident Advisor or a Residence Hall Director at an entry level position, or paraprofessional position, as we say in housing residence life, you are the frontline of the department. And so because you are the frontline of the department, you are seeing these things happen in real time. And you are dealing with these issues three, four or five hours at a time. So you can't just switch it off. Because you know, you could walk to your room, you can walk to your apartment, and you have to tackle said issue, where as your superiors may not have to see it as up close as you do on a day-to-day basis.

Sara Frick: 42:44

Yeah, your supervisor gets to go to their house or apartment off-campus and doesn't have to concern themselves with the things that then is right outside of your door, your apartment when you live on campus.

J.C. Stoner: 42:56

Well, and even the privilege of being able to, quote experience the incident by reading about it versus like witnessing it firsthand is a totally different emotional experience and a total different line of thinking that everything that comes after that. The author also talks about like borrowing soundtracks to others, he talks about quotes he's picked that he's farmed from elsewhere, any soundtracks you all have collected from other people? supervisors, colleagues, celebrities?

Jasmine Jennings: 43:30

So I struggle to figure out what soundtracks I could remember or I've written down. But what I have thought about is, I don't know what your experience was, was like growing up or what your undergrad experience was like. But I was born and raised in Detroit, Michigan, which is a predominantly Black community, really a predominantly People of Color community. And so it wasn't until I left college, where I wasn't in a predominant Black community. And so growing up, I remember my teachers, they used to always give us some type of affirmations say like, you're a king, you're a queen, you come from royalty, you're making your ancestors proud, really trying to infuse those encouraging words to us, because after we left our community, you know, we weren't going to be in those safe spaces. And so reflecting back I think those were foundational soundtracks that I received from my teachers growing up because once I entered into predominantly white spaces and started really interacting with different stereotypes of bias that didn't experience before I felt equipped in my identity, and I felt confident, and I didn't have to go through certain stages of, I guess questioning of my identity, because I did have teachers that said all these majestic things to me growing up.

J.C. Stoner: 45:01

Yeah, yeah, like that's the soundtrack right there like "you are a queen." Like every morning you wake up. It's like I am a queen like that's the that's what that's I would think that that the way you describe that it's like that's borrowed like imagine telling all of your paraprofessional staff like you are king. You are a queen. You are royalty.

Jasmine Jennings: 45:18

I'm glad you feel like you're royalty J.C. You know, you're already infused in a soundcheck and see your life.

J.C. Stoner: 45:25

Only because of you! Before this, I was like, Am I royalty. No, I'm just another gear in the cog. But you're right, I am a king! I am royalty.

Sara Frick: 45:34

That's what J.C. is gonna say as he's laying his head down on his pillow.

J.C. Stoner: 45:39

Every night before I go to bed, quote, Jasmine Jennings.

Jasmine Jennings: 45:43

But it's like you don't realize, I don't know, if you feel like this about soundcheck, you've heard but just reflecting back, you know, I really didn't realize the effect that it had on me until I became a professional. And I'm actually glad I had teachers that said all these wonderful things to me, because I've definitely feel a lot more confident in my work. But also to just a short, short, short little story. When I was a Resident Advisor, my supervisor did an activity where we all gave feedback to each other. And one of the feedback that they gave me, they said I was aggressive. And I think about that. I think about that instance, very often, because I'm like, I'm not naturally aggressive. I'm actually pretty chill. But even though I think about it, I don't marinate on it. And I'm thankful that I've had people to tell me otherwise. Because I would just imagine that if I continue carrying that with me what effect it would have on me interacting with different staffs that I've worked with over time.

J.C. Stoner: 46:47

What do you think it was about becoming a professional then that made that come to light?

Jasmine Jennings: 46:52

You know, that's an excellent question. I would say that, I think having conversations with my Students of Color, and they talk about their worthiness. I think also talking to students that were first generation students, and me walking them through support, walking them through confidence, walking them through affirmation, made me reflect back on my childhood and my upbringing and school, I'm thankful that I did have teachers and educators that did look like me. And so I've interacted with a lot of students that didn't have that experience. And so I'm really understanding why representation is important because it helps promote a positive message like you can do this, you can be here, you can get a master's degree, you are capable. And so I'm glad that I had those folks in my life to tell me that and I could share that information. Because I've definitely I actually know that think about I've really had to share those thoughts with students as they are questioning themselves in their identity in the space of higher education. And I hope I answered your question.

J.C. Stoner: 48:04

Yeah, absolutely. I appreciate you sharing. Sara, any you borrowed from others?

Sara Frick: 48:10

You know, I also struggled a little bit, I think it's hard to pull those things. But the one thing that I wrote down when I was thinking through what those soundtracks are, is I had a pastor once from my church that I went to growing up that had talked a lot about your small actions having value, and that everything is a step on a ladder in the in a direction. And I think that's something that latter analogy that really stuck with me and something that I've carried also into my interactions with others. So those small things that I do can make an impact. And so saying that to myself, or even if I don't see what there is, maybe I don't get to see the immediate benefits. But there can be benefits, and there can be a positive impact. So when you think about your interaction with students and with their lives, like maybe you have a, you know, a student that's dealing with mental health issues, or something like that, and you have one conversation, and maybe they didn't walk away from that saying, like, I'm going to go seek help. But I know that I had a positive interaction, and that maybe that helped to normalize going to see a counselor a little bit more. And maybe some of those small things will help them on the grander scale, even though I might not see that impact. So I think that that's one soundtrack and thing that has been really embedded in me and that I have used in my personal life, but I've also seen in our field of higher education.

J.C. Stoner: 49:38

I remember one conversation I had with the first instructor of my doc program, we met up and we're just chatting, and he made an offhand comment that my dissertation was actually going to be the worst thing I ever wrote. Which I laughed at the time because he was a pretty straight shooter in those regards, but then he followed up, it's like, well, if you're going to keep getting better at this, this is your first academic writing. Hopefully everything after this point is going to be better and better. And that's one that I, I've applied that the the first thing the first time you're ever your first committee chair meeting is probably going to be your worst one because you've never run it before. Or your first day on your as a, your new role is probably going to be I don't think it practically applies across the board. But it's a it's something I've reframed a lot of things of like, the first episode I recorded this podcast was the worst quality one of all of them because it gets better after that point.

Jasmine Jennings: 50:39

My significant other is agreeing with everything that you just said. He said, "Preach."

J.C. Stoner: 50:48

But it was also like a little shocking when he said that at first, because like you're talking about something I'm spending years writing, and you're telling me it's gonna be the worst. And it was until like, I like unpacked it a little bit in my head over time. It's like, you know, he's absolute, or at least I hope he's right, is what it really shouldn't be. Maybe it's not, maybe it's the best thing I ever write? But I hope that he's right in it being the worst.

Sara Frick: 51:11

Gotta unpack it a little bit more.

J.C. Stoner: 51:13

Yes. What's the thought behind the thought? I think is what the author says a number of times. And what the author said also that I love is"well, do you want feedback or do you want compliments?", like in a in a supervisory relationship of like, you know, tell me how I'm doing? Okay. Well, do you want feedback? Or do you want complex compliments?

Sara Frick: 51:32

Yeah, that was a real tough love moment there in the in the book, but very, very accurate.

J.C. Stoner: 51:39

Yeah. And I think if you just like even that moment of reframing that it kind of sets the tone for the rest of the conversation. It's like you've elected this way. And, again, I'm not going to be a jerk about it. But here's the feedback. We've talked a little bit about the emotional toll of over commitment and mental health of housing staff throughout and one I think I've tried to lend to people--a soundtrack I've tried to listen to people I work with, is, "it's just a job." And I picked that up from an article years ago. And I think it was from like a ER surgeon or a cardiovascular surgeon who wrote this thing, I have to see if I can find the article these days. But like, even this person was saying, "it's just a job." And so I try and lend that out as much as I can to reaffirm that, really, at the end of the day, it's just a job.

Jasmine Jennings: 52:30

I mean, you're right, because we want you to do great work, we want you to impact students, but there's so much more to you than this job. And if this job is causing you to overthink a lot, or if it's the root of your overthinking and it's bleeding into other things in your life, that's not gonna work out well for you emotionally or mentally. And so you're right, that is just the job. And I think that's a soundtrack I can share with others too.

Sara Frick: 53:02

And that's what Jasmine's gonna say when she lays her head on her pillow tonight.

Jasmine Jennings: 53:06

It's just a job!

J.C. Stoner: 53:09

I'm just glad that we've been able to share mutually share and benefit each other.

Jasmine Jennings: 53:14

Sharing is caring.

J.C. Stoner: 53:15

Absolutely. This is a little off topic. But another implementation for overthinking is like the author talks about like a pocket jury about, you know, we've got these people saying things in our pocket, typically it's like negative stuff in our heads. But I picked this up from... I think it was an FBI negotiator, expert negotiator. And from that I added to the "pocket jury" of like, add someone you admire into it, whether you're like negotiating a job salary or a car price, or whatever the overthinking moment, is is like, would Beyonce take the first offer? You know, whatever the case may be, and I think that's one like put a positive voice in your head about what would Taylor Swift do or whatever those whatever it might be?

Sara Frick: 54:08

Yeah, making taking people that you view positively and try to input that into your own, can change how we naturally view things so negatively for ourself, that that change of mindset of mindset is really big.

Jasmine Jennings: 54:25

I think, to that point, with a change of mindset. I think what stuck out to me about a pocket jury, and this I want to read specifically this definition that was in the book, it's whenever you dare to be more than you currently are. And I think that's a very impactful statement to say because your pocket jury does typically come out when you are trying to be better, do better, think better, grow more, you know, go outside of your comfort zone, take a risk, you know, insert all the things and actually I like the word there specifically, because it's like, you are betting on yourself, you are betting on your goals, you are betting on your work ethic, you are, you know, betting or your competency. And when you think about the pocket jury, that's when all the things from childhood, from high school, from undergrad really creep up on you say all these things. And so sometimes you do need to ask,"would Beyonce do this?" Beyonce is great. I want to be great like her, what do I need to do to get to her level? And so it's almost like a, like Beyonce is your weapon against all the naysayers that you have in your mind? I know that was like very fun using Beyonce as your weapon. But I hope you know, I hope that makes sense, you know, to go into battle against your pocket.

J.C. Stoner: 55:52

Well in the pocket jury is that people who like are the ones that are constantly telling us we're imposters in those situations where we're stretching ourselves like imposter syndrome is a legitimate thing. And the thought behind that thought is like I'm just an imposter. It's like imposter syndrome typically applies to like high performers or people who are like, challenging themselves and growing. And that's something you should be proud of. So anytime someone talks to me, it's like, I just feel like an imposter like, you know, soon to graduate students, as soon to graduate, commonly will say this, like, I'm going to start a new job, I'm going to be a total imposter like, but you're not like you're not really like that's a good thing, if you feel that way, because you're being challenged to grow.

Sara Frick: 56:36

Yeah, I feel like it's so easy to view growth in a negative way, because it's uncomfortable, not because it's a bad thing, you know, growth is a good thing. But when we step outside of our comfort zone, a lot of time we're so uncomfortable that we don't want to do it, or then we start to view as "Oh, this, this isn't who I am This is not my nature, I don't know what I'm doing." And you start to really tear yourself down instead of, you know, being confident in those decisions and how you want to grow and better yourself.

Jasmine Jennings: 57:09

And to your point to Sara, like you talk yourself down before you even experience the experience. And so you're you're projecting all these things into the experience. And it may not even be that way, you may think, "Oh, I really can do this." And this also makes me think about a quote that Queen Michelle Obama said, it was either in her book or in one of her talks, but she, you know, spoke about how, you know, she was in these rooms with all of these generals, and these politicians and all of these important people in the country. But when she sat in on these conversations, she felt like, you know, she was just a smartest thing, like she's just as competent as it may be even smarter and more competent. And so I'm glad to hear that our forever First Lady, you know, shared that experience, because, you know, you think all these things like they've been through 20 years in the industry, or they, you know, they've gone through all these things. And so they are competent, and equipped to do all this. But once you actually get there, you see that you belong there, like this is your place, just believe in yourself.

J.C. Stoner: 58:18

Absolutely. Michelle Obama 2024. And for any of our listeners out there who think that this is just stuff that is anecdotal, they actually did a whole lot of research and interviewed or asked over 10,000 people, all sorts of questions and some of the strategies they employed. And when they asked 10,000 people how overthinking made them feel, 73% of people said it made them feel inadequate. And 52% of them said it made them feel drained. So if those feelings are something you experience when you feel like you're overthinking know that you're not alone. And I put that in there just from this is just there is research supporting everything we're talking about.

Sara Frick: 59:07

Yes, I always appreciate the data to back up like, you know, and we've mentioned like, what a fascinating concept of overthinking and how like you can relate and you can sit through and be aware. "Oh, I'm overthinking this knowledge, read the book. I'm very sensitive to this." But when he lists out this data and some of these things, it does make you feel like you're not the only one because I think that's part of the overthinking is like"it's just me, I'm the only one feeling this I'm the only one that's ever overthought anything in my whole life" when you know, that's clearly not the case.

J.C. Stoner: 59:43

Or maybe not even the I'm the only one overthinking but I'm the only one who gets exhausted by overthinking or I'm the only one that spins this negatively down the rabbit hole.

Sara Frick: 59:55

Yes, very true.

Jasmine Jennings: 59:56

And you know, I feel like this goes along with that. feelings of shame or guilt or feeling the way that you feel from overthinking. And when you're feeling shameful or or when you're having feelings of guilt, then you isolate yourself, and really get you thinking, "Oh, am I the only one" or "I am the only one experiencing this," when we as a community as a society really needs to work through feelings of shame, and like really speak up more about those more uncomfortable feelings so that people don't feel like they are in isolation when they're experiencing overthinking?

J.C. Stoner: 1:00:32

Yeah, absolutely. I feel like it's systemically built into society that even if we acknowledge that everybody feels shame that the people who have power are like, you're a powerful person, if you don't display shame, or you don't let it consume you, like, there's a negative association with that, like, Okay, well, maybe we all do experience shame from time to time, but the people, but if you don't process shame, or don't let it show, then you're in a, you have more power or position or whatever the case may be.

Jasmine Jennings: 1:01:05

And you know, unfortunately, too, I think with that mindset, as you get older, it'll wear you down, not even just mentally and emotionally, but also also physically, I feel like I know quite a few people that let things build up to where they're, like physically sick and can't, you know, can't continue working or can't work as hard as they used to. And so all of that manifests in many different ways. And so I definitely think we need to work on speaking up more. And I think that's what this new generation of students, they are really advocates for, like, they have no shame in sharing, like, this is how I feel. I need help, I need you. And so I think that's been a great, a great benefit to our current generation of students is that they are challenging us to speak up and speak out and address those more uncomfortable feelings when we're experiencing them.

J.C. Stoner: 1:01:55

Absolutely. Jasmine, did you want to talk a little bit more about the book not feeling like it applied necessarily to you as a Black Woman?

Jasmine Jennings: 1:02:04

So yeah, I would say it didn't apply to me in two ways. The first way, I think this is more general that I think could be applicable to anyone. So, you know, I think I may define overthinking differently. So I definitely experienced the overthinking that he talks about but I actually consider my type of overthinking as constantly thinking about a task or a responsibility that I need to take care of, and because I'm constantly thinking and I'm constantly on, that wears me down mentally and physically. And so in a sense, going back to what I was saying about using a dial versus a switch, I'm sorry, not a dial versus a switch, but productive overthinking when I think about productive overthinking, because for me, I'm always trying to be a few steps ahead of all the folks because I'm providing leadership for different initiatives and programs. Like I'm constantly thinking, trying to plan ahead so that we're the people behind me are prepared to do their job or are prepared to do whatever I need them to do for the department. So that's certainly one way I didn't think the book addressed my type of overthinking. So I hope that makes sense. And then the second thing is--

J.C. Stoner: 1:03:21

Before you get on to the next one, I have a follow up statement. I love what you just said about like in leadership, I need to know or I need to show that I have strength or that I'm I'm in charge or that I know what's going on. And this is what I think about all the time. And it is until within the last couple years, I finally have kind of laid it out in my head. It's like, I'm, I know my weaknesses as a professional and like, knowing all the salient details is one of them. And I know people who are like, I got to know everything. And it's finally I realized, I'm never gonna be that person and all but I can be the person who--And I And see I'm working on getting there but I'm not there yet. just imagined myself seeing this in an interview of like, "No, I'm not going to know everything that's going on in my department." Like if I was ever to apply for Director job and telling the VP or whoever my boss will be, I'm not going to be the person who knows everything that's going on in my department. But what I am going to be is the person who get access to the information based on the relationships and the systems in place. If you ask me something and follow up, I'm not gonna know the answer. But I will be able to get it to you within an hour because of the way my department's going to operate. And that's one that like, I would constantly overthink. It's like, I don't know the answer to that question. My boss just asked me this. I don't know. But guess what, I always had a quick follow up because my staff knew what was going on. And I don't know that I'm there that yet either. It's like, first, identify the issue. And again, I don't know how I'd ever explained that to like, well now that it's in public record Like anyone else is like, well, that's not what you said on the podcast, you said you wouldn't know anything that's going on in your department. But I think there's some level of if you can get comfortable with that, it's like, you know, there's actually a value to doing it that way. And then also, you know, if I can spin it even more, it's like, staff doesn't feel like you're constantly micromanaging with like, weekly reports, or whatever, to get all these details.

Jasmine Jennings: 1:05:22

We'll see. And that's what's so hard. I don't know if y'all have experienced this. But it's, I think, for me, it's always like, I would get"what if" questions and questions about really small things. And I'm like, in my mind, I'm like, "I didn't think about that." But then on the outside, I'm like, "Okay, we're gonna figure it out." Or "here's a quick answer", thinking on my toes. And for me, I know, I can answer the question. I know, I can get the resource. But it's stressful. Because again, as the leader, it's like, it's one more thing to think about one more thing to add on my to do list. I wish I could just say, you know, let me come back to that. But I know personally, I'm just not there yet. And I'm working through it.

J.C. Stoner: 1:06:08

Well, every time that I get asked a question, it's like, we'll come back to that. And then they see me walk over to my boss's office, it almost like I gave some of my authority, or my command in my position, like this guy doesn't even--why are we even talking and having this conversation? Why don't we go talk to his boss about it? like, you know, there's those things. And I also, there was, you know, probably another soundtrack I picked up somewhere along the way is like, sometimes the wrong decision now is better than the right decision two weeks from now, in terms of like, you know, while I don't necessarily agree with that, 100%, like, we shouldn't be given wrong answers or bad information. But, you know, sometimes it's like, we can take action now.

Jasmine Jennings: 1:06:48

To your point. And this actually leads to the second reason why I don't feel like I'm represented in this book, you know, I can't speak for all Black People. And I can't speak for all Black Women, but from my community of Black People, it's like, there's no room for us to be wrong. There's no room for us to make mistakes, a lot of us are told growing up, you have to be better than the person next to you. Because these opportunities don't come to you like they do for your peers that aren't Black. And so it's constantly proving yourself to make sure that people know that you are competent in your job. And so it's it literally is always making sure that we're on our P's and Q's, always making sure that we are the positive Black Person or the positive Black Woman or that I don't have a negative attitude, or I don't want to be at a get together at somebody's house, even though culturally, it's not for me. And so when I think about overthinking, I think about all those things, I'm carrying that on my back. Because I know I'm not the only one experiencing this. I know my peer Black Woman peers of Black Male peers aren't the only one that's experiencing that. And so we can't just positively think out that or beat that. This is a systemic issue of bias, a deep, a deeply bias issue that not only happens in higher ed, but in a lot of a lot of functional areas. And so I think that's why I like the book on a surface level, but he doesn't really touch upon the complexity of how society works for and against people. And so when it comes to overthinking, his overthinking doesn't apply to my school life.

Sara Frick: 1:08:39

Yeah, I think that that's really interesting. And thanks for sharing that. Jasmine, your perspective, I think that what you're saying is definitely true of that he doesn't give any aspect to like external things. Like it's all very internal in your process. And that, although for people from privilege that maybe they are so privileged that they don't have to worry about those external factors, but there are people in different backgrounds and situations that may warrant that you can't only think about your own thoughts and how this is impacting you, but how you're being portrayed by others and what that looks like.

J.C. Stoner: 1:09:20

And Jasmine, I imagine there's probably also conflicting narratives going on there with you being told "you have to be better than the person next to you." But I'm imagining there's probably either subconsciously or even more overtly like, but you can't be too much better, because then you're going to look any sort of way of like arrogant or trying to hard, you know, so I imagine there's also conflicting messages, which then would make the thinking behind it, and the processing of the systemic issues like even more challenging because it's like,"what do you want from me?" Or what are people telling I need to give?

Jasmine Jennings: 1:09:57

And it's like, because of those conflicting messages. And I feel like this shows up for a lot of marginalized identities in general. But you then start policing yourself and policing your personality. I think one thing in student affairs, I'm just going to be frank gets under, um, isn't my favorite saying is "Be your authentic self." A lot of spaces in higher ed doesn't allow me to be my authentic self, because it can be viewed as threatening. It can be viewed as rude, it can be viewed as ratchet or unprofessional. And so it's like, okay, I want to come to this event, I want to wear this outfit, but will my body be policed? So then I'm policing the clothes I wear. Or somebody's gonna say something about my hair. So do I need to wear this type of hairstyle at an interview? So then I'm policing, what type of beautician I go to what hairstyle I wear. And so it's so it runs so deep. And I know, I'm not the only one that has experienced this. There really isn't a solution to these things, though. And I think that's the hard part. And that's what makes my type of overthinking difficult because the author is right, in many ways, like asking yourself, Is it true? Is it kind? Is it helpful? Like, yes, that's thats valid. But what else is beneath the iceberg or below the iceberg is, is what I don't see addressed.

J.C. Stoner: 1:11:30

Yeah, and I love what you just said about that"Be your authentic self." Like, I couldn't agree with you more on that of like, just how aggravating... Again, I'm a white dude, like, I don't have that experience. But it's like, yeah, that would be great if everybody could be their authentic selves. But we don't have a system in place where that's actually a reality that's going to be helpful or empowering in anyway for a lot of people. And until that system is built in place where a university is like, everyone can really everyone's behind this, like, you're just setting people like by saying that as a VP of Student Affairs, like you're setting people up for failure in some ways. Well, that's a wrap for our second book club. For those of you interested in reading the next book further in advance, we

will be discussing "Upstream: 1:12:19

The Quest to Solve Problems Before They Happen" sometime in the next three to seven months. I already have one guest locked down but would certainly be interested in having at least one more, drop me a line at swacuhopodcast@gmail.com if you're interested. want to once again thank our guests, Jasmine Jennings and Sara Frick. They certainly delivered and gave us a lot to overthink about. Time is such a valuable commodity, and I can't thank them enough for investing their time in this podcast today. Be sure to connect with and thank them on their preferred social media accounts listed in the show notes. Since recording the last episode, I got a second request for advice out of the inbox. It's looking like we may have an advice episode on the horizon. I only need a couple more people to anonymously ask for professional advice. Once we have a handful of questions. I'll pull together a panel to provide their take on your situation and provide some recommendations and guidance. Consider like Ann Landers, but for housing professionals. I hope you join us next time when we will be talking with Dr. Dustin Grabsch from Southern Methodist University about an article he published last year in "The Journal of College and University Student Housing" titled "Understanding the Expectations of Students with Autism to Increase Satisfaction with the On-Campus Living Experience." A link to the article will be in the show notes if you want to read it in advance. This will be our second episode talking about research findings with a SWACUHO practitioner scholar. So get ready to be positioned to make evidence based decisions. And with that, I say to you, good day.