It's been mentioned on the Podcast a few times how time consuming it is facilitating RA hiring processes, so today Apefa Cooper (Texas A&M San Antonio) came back to the show to talk about an article she wrote in The Journal of College and University Student Housing about this very thing. Apefa not only talks about the hours upon hours spent in the various components, but also coverts that time into real money: staff wages. Apefa breaks down her article and the various alterations to RA hiring processes to intentionally look at how we are investing our resources. At the end of the show, we talk about the publishing process and how Apefa grew throughout her experience of publishing her first article.
We have our first Reflection Guide! This reflection guide was designed to promote deeper thought and generate tangible action surrounding small takeaways. If you put anything into action from the Podcast, please consider sharing it via swacuhopodcast@gmail.com and you may get featured on an upcoming episode.
Seeking professional advice? Fill out this anonymous form and a panel of housing staff will give you their take on your situation on an upcoming podcast.
Article Reviewed on this Episode:
The Price of Hiring Resident Assistants: An Analysis of Human Capital, Opportunity Costs, and Personnel Wages [JCUSH Article]
Other Things Mentioned on this Episode:
009 - Reflections from a Black President | Adonis Thompson [SWACUHO Podcast]
010 - Read, File, Delete, or Ignore: Email Management | Monique Burkley and Maggie Guzman [SWACUHO Podcast]
003 - Resident Assistant Hiring Decisions | Craig Seager [SWACUHO Podcast]
008 - The Expectations and Satisfaction of Residents with Autism | Dustin Grabsch [SWACUHO Podcast]
Dilbert Priorities [Comic Strip]
It's been mentioned on the Podcast a few times how time consuming it is facilitating RA hiring processes, so today Apefa Cooper (Texas A&M San Antonio) came back to the show to talk about an article she wrote in The Journal of College and University Student Housing about this very thing. Apefa not only talks about the hours upon hours spent in the various components, but also coverts that time into real money: staff wages. Apefa breaks down her article and the various alterations to RA hiring processes to intentionally look at how we are investing our resources. At the end of the show, we talk about the publishing process and how Apefa grew throughout her experience of publishing her first article.
We have our first Reflection Guide! This reflection guide was designed to promote deeper thought and generate tangible action surrounding small takeaways. If you put anything into action from the Podcast, please consider sharing it via swacuhopodcast@gmail.com and you may get featured on an upcoming episode.
Seeking professional advice? Fill out this anonymous form and a panel of housing staff will give you their take on your situation on an upcoming podcast.
Article Reviewed on this Episode:
The Price of Hiring Resident Assistants: An Analysis of Human Capital, Opportunity Costs, and Personnel Wages [JCUSH Article]
Other Things Mentioned on this Episode:
009 - Reflections from a Black President | Adonis Thompson [SWACUHO Podcast]
010 - Read, File, Delete, or Ignore: Email Management | Monique Burkley and Maggie Guzman [SWACUHO Podcast]
003 - Resident Assistant Hiring Decisions | Craig Seager [SWACUHO Podcast]
008 - The Expectations and Satisfaction of Residents with Autism | Dustin Grabsch [SWACUHO Podcast]
Dilbert Priorities [Comic Strip]
I'm J.C. Stoner and this is the SWACUHO Podcast. Have you ever attempted to quantify the actual cost of your Resident Assistant hiring process? I'm not talking about the cost of marketing and room rentals and pens and paper. I'm talking about the cost of your staff's time. What opportunities do we sacrifice to facilitate multi-day long hiring processes? On this episode, I'm joined by Apefa Cooper to discuss an article she published last year on the opportunity cost and personnel resources associated with hiring Resident Assistants. Given how far those personnel resources have been stretched and tested the last two years moonlighting as healthcare professionals, I can't imagine a more appropriate time than now to take a critical look at how your human capital is being spent. Trust me, after listening to this episode, you're going to have a whole new perspective on the value of your time. Our guest today is Apefa Cooper, who recently began serving as the Director of Housing at Texas A&M San Antonio. Apefa recently transitioned out as the SWACUHO Programming Committee Chair after serving for two years. She is originally from Ghana, but currently calls Texas home. She has a huge heart for people and making them feel like they have a place in the world. Only because she enjoys hearing others hear their Enneagram numbers, Apefa reports she is a 3-2, which some experts deem as the charmer. Apefa, welcome back to the show.
Apefa Cooper:Thank you, JC I'm so happy to be here.
J.C. Stoner:First things first, you are actually the first repeat guest on this show.
Apefa Cooper:Hi... That's exciting!
J.C. Stoner:Maybe this is like on Real Housewives of Wherever... maybe this means you're the first official"friend of the show."
Apefa Cooper:Haha. Yes. I need to start investing in the show... like monetary investment?
J.C. Stoner:Truth be told, it's because you're a special person and as your bio said, very charming. And not because I've already exhausted my network.
Apefa Cooper:Thanks, J.C.
J.C. Stoner:Apefa - your article is called "The Price of
Hiring Resident Assistants:An Analysis of Human Capital, Opportunity Costs, and Personnel Wages." This is an interesting topic to explore. What was the genesis of the article idea?
Apefa Cooper:Well, it was also originally a SWACUHO program.
Unknown:Really how it all started was really looking at if we we really truly say "time is money," then what do we mean by that even in our lives, right? And in our day to day work. And And that may have also prompted a little bit. And in Dustin's so, for example, at the time that I wrote this, I was actually a Residence Director. And so I was looking at some of the things that we do on daily basis, and looking at whether or not things are worth our time. And so a big part of my role back then was RA recruitment and hiring. And so the idea came from really asking the questions of "if time is money, then where are we putting our resources?" And so I was really interested in this idea and it was exciting to me at that time because it was non traditional in the way that we wrote this article, and even explored some of them. And so we'll talk more about it. episode, Episode 008, we talked about making programs into articles. So I think this is a good example of how you can transition that also. I love the idea because my first job at the age of 15, was making $4.05 an hour catering at the Kansas Union. I remember thinking that if I worked an hour, I almost had enough money to go watch a two hour movie at the theater. So it's really kind of fascinating to think about what
you said:"Time is money." So why do you think this topic was important to research? I think it was important to research at that time--and even now--because I really wanted to know the villainess behind what we were doing. And so for example, we were putting a lot of resources and being taken away from our desk and our regular duties. And so that's why I really jumped at the idea because I was really interested in just wanting to learn more about okay, at the end of the day, why are we really doing this, but I was hoping to learn more around that idea of of what we do when it even comes down to hiring RAs.
J.C. Stoner:Because when you think about time, time is money. I'm thinking about ra process I've been involved in where it's three full days of this and two full days of that where you have a full day of anything is basically 16 30-minute conduct cases. And so when you're interviewing people, every 30 minute interview means you can't do a 30 minute conduct case or a 30 minute one-on-one with an RA.
Unknown:Yeah. And it takes you away from from what you're doing.
J.C. Stoner:But then it also begs the question--and I know you wrote about this--if we're doing these comprehensive processes, but we still have other job duties to do. When do we do them? If we're busy for days at a time interviewing people.
Apefa Cooper:I think it's something that we wrote on there, too, was the idea that even as a young professional, because these are entry level positions, that are the front lines of these interviews and the hiring processes. For us, we want to make sure that we do a good job at the end of the day, right? And so we're going in with "work until the job is done, not until the day is over." And so you have these entry level professionals going in and working eight hours straight for an interview, right? And then they still know that they have 100 emails to still catch up on, right? In their minds are thinking, well, I need to get it done because tomorrow morning, I have that 30 minute interview, I have this hour long meeting that I have to attend, I have a contact case. But don't forget, I also have that one-on-one. But oh, wait, my RA has a program, I need to attend that at eight o'clock that night. And so you're looking at all of these times. And we go further into at end of the day, what does that do to that person? Right? And the human capital, when you look at the stress level, the the anxiety that comes with adding up all of these times? And what really, at the end of the day, is it really worth it? Right? And asking yourself that. And so I know we're starting this podcast with oh, this downer of okay, why do we do know these things? And hopefully you're not an entry level professional listening to this And be like,"yes, yes, tell them!" You know, we want to really at the end of the day address, and really draw back to what is important, what is the purpose of this, right? And we will talk more about this, but have departments really think through their processes, and what they do.
J.C. Stoner:Well, and I can't imagine a more appropriate time given the current state of affairs and departments of housing facing resignation levels, difficulty recruitment, and a lot of that goes to what you said is like, which is it is it? Work until the day is over, or work until the job is done? And you just named a laundry list of things that still needed to be done. And we have to interview people for multiple days on end. So I think it's... the value of the article, in my opinion, has only increased throughout the pandemic and facing the current climate that we see existing now. I think the other fascinating thing about the article is it really... there really has never been anything looked at in an academic sense about like human capital, personnel wages. And I think how you all drew on economic principles or organized organizational management concepts is a good example of how professionals can draw on research from outside Student Affairs and Housing to make points and build proposals off of.
Apefa Cooper:I completely agree. And I think this, this article, and some of the findings that we found out from this was can be applied into different organizations and different departments is at the end of the day, you have to ask this question, Was this the best use of my time or my staffs time? Right. And so the goal of this is not to pinpoint or pick at each process, but to really evaluate and understand what are some of the things that we do in our organizations and our departments that are worth it? And I think we've been put on there, and when you look at meetings, right? And, and when people say, "Oh, that meeting should have been in an email," right? And we'd laugh about it and really you look at it, there are several meetings that could have been in an email. And so when you sit in an eat in a meeting for two hours, I'm talking about another meeting and planning that meeting. We were at that time and, and we and the big part of this article and something that's very different. And then once a week, we don't really see a lot in other articles is the idea that when you draw on converting staff time into wage potential, right, and you look at, okay, if this is if I'm sitting in this meeting for two hours, and I'm getting paid 10 hours an hour, you know, or whatever, 15 hours and $15 an hour, right? And so then I'm sitting here for $30 and then you have 10 people in that meeting, right? Doing that math and seeing okay, this is really worth it? I was recently I was actually to the previous podcast with Adonis. And you actually talked about this idea. He talked about how he sat in a meeting to plan a meeting. And actually had to laugh about that, because this is really the same concept, you know?
J.C. Stoner:No, I love that. And this whole time I was thinking like, we just talked about this with Adonis. This is perfect, because it's one thing to sit around and complain about wasting time. But then as your article shows, there's a whole other level when you start talking about the value and the monetary cost. And it's no longer just like anecdotal, complaining around the watercooler or making jokes about wasting people's time. It's like, there was actually like, there's more to it than that.
Apefa Cooper:Yeah. Yes, that's true.
J.C. Stoner:But on the last episode with Maggie and Monique, we also talked about emails and meetings, that should be emails, and then also emails that sometimes should be meetings so it's all coming full circle here.
Apefa Cooper:It is maybe to just do an episode.
J.C. Stoner:I'd like to say it plans out how strategic I was in So your article wasn't a traditional, like pretest post scheduling these interviews sequentially. But I don't think quite happen that way. test research study. So how did you go about setting up this study?
Apefa Cooper:So to do this, we actually had to create a baseline and for a baseline, and what we meant by that was we took certain variables and certain components of the RA hiring process. And so the baseline RA hiring process evaluated about 125 candidates, and in that included eight one hour interest sessions, which was one component facilitated by two entry level staff, and four RAs. Now, on the other side, we also had one a 30 minute interview with one entry level staff in one RA, and then three 30 minute group process activities with six candidates per group, facilitated by one entry level staff in three RAs. Now I say all this because what we did is by setting that baseline, we were able to actually move things around and adjust them so that we could make some of the arguments we made in the article, right? And so for example, there were times where we, we took away the group process completely--
J.C. Stoner:Nice.
Apefa Cooper:And then also got rid of everything else, but the structured interviews. And so with doing that, we were able to really calculate more of both the time and the wages, for the full time professionals, but then also the RAs, however, we go more in depth with our full time entry level professionals.
J.C. Stoner:And I think that also it was probably beneficial to kind of set a baseline because there's about as many different ways to hire RAs as there are schools that exist and departments that hire them. So having a baseline probably made that a little bit more consistent from a standardized perspective, I imagine.
Apefa Cooper:Right? And we took once that components that were more common. And so we knew that this definitely that interview, we actually found that there were some other schools that I think we said that they even asked three questions or something as part of their interview, right. We know that that's different when it comes to that. But we also know some people enjoy group process. And we talk a lot about that, you know, that's a sensitive topic. And so some some common components were included in this in this baseline so that it was more applicable to other departments and other institutions.
J.C. Stoner:So I'm looking at the table in your article. And just to give a kind of a, a tangible for listeners, you talked about having eight interest sessions with two full time professionals, and you figured out what like an average hourly salary is, and so that'd be 16 hours for all the interest sessions which basically converts to $277 of full time, staff time, right. And then that breaks down per candidate to$5.74 per time, but structured interviews would come up to$1,082 in staff time, who process was $545 and staff time. And so when you start looking at that's how it quantifies things. So let's talk about some of the alterations you'd made to those. I encourage all the listeners to look at this table because it talks about the RAs, the paraprofessional staff time, the money, the wages, but basically your baseline process according to this table, cost in salary and wages $4,500 to interview 125 candidates, which basically equates to $36 spent on every candidate you were interviewed. With that in mind, what were some of the alterations you made? And what did you learn?
Apefa Cooper:I will put it this way. So the highest proportion of the monetized human capital, I'm going to share this because then it will make more sense to kind of share a little bit more of the alterations for the listeners understanding. The highest proportion of monetized human capital in the baseline processes invested in the structured interviews, we knew that that was the biggest one, right? And so we were looking at about $1900. So $1940, when it came to structured interview, closely followed by group process, which was about $1843, and then finally interest sessions, than so, I want to share that a little bit, because then it will make more sense as we're taking things away. And so one of the alterations that we made was, we will jump right into group process. So--
J.C. Stoner:Yes!
Apefa Cooper:Yeah, completely eliminating group process. And what it did, it lowered the time required to facilitate their entire recruitment process. And so the total hours of our entry level and RAs staff time decreased by 42%, which will be about 299 hours.
J.C. Stoner:I mean, that alone is amazing, like 290 hours, like, you could do a whole lot with that time as a department.
Apefa Cooper:And that also converted to about $1,843 in total wages, by just removing our group process. Now, mind you, we still have the structured interviews, and we also still had interest sessions. Another thing that we did too was we you know, in altering the number of group process stations, altering the number of due process activities in which candidates participate, change the entry level and RA time by 10.5 hours, and 31 hours per seat per station. And so this accounted for approximately$182 to and $433, in both staff wages per added or removed station. And so just to kind of simply put, you know, adding a third station increases the total hiring process cost of necessary personnel, we just by 13.7. And so in altering, altering the number of group process stations, we're able to see some changes whether or not we saved by by reducing the number of station and how much we added or we needed to spend by adding more stations, right. And so overall, we were looking at close to $4500. I know there's a lot of math in and so hopefully the article is in the show notes, so you can get to look at more of what we're saying. But that was another thing that we did, in altering that.
J.C. Stoner:Well Apefa I'll just add that if anyones takeaway at this point so far is to be adding process stations, you've got another thing coming. Because it's like how many other ways? How many more times do we need to blindfold people and have them build marshmallow toothpick towers to get better information?
Apefa Cooper:There are there are two camps though, you know, there are people that are gung ho with a group process and really the hope is that maybe as you read this, you're like,"Okay, I'm for the group process. So what can I do with my structured interviews?" Right? Where if you want to do do the blindfold and do stuck on an island, what would you take with you? versus, you know, doing two 30 minute interviews, then maybe looking at that time and saying, okay, is will I get more information from my from the candidates? If I do 500 hours of group process? Versus 200 hours of structured interview? Yeah. So don't dog on the group process, J.C.
J.C. Stoner:I will dog on group process until my last breath.
Apefa Cooper:Well, another thing and this one was also one of my favorite to with our structured interviews, I think that one is where a lot of people find a lot more benefit from with a structured interview. And so we altered that a little bit to where we only conduct a structured interview. So we took away intercessions we took away the group process and the other things that that played a role in this and then with a baseline of 125 candidates, the total cost was $1940 with 62 hours for one full time, and one RA so we saved 126.5 hours and $2,500 from just doing structured interviews, right? And so again, if you're looking at if this time, if time is money, and you're looking at the time of your full time professionals entry level professionals. And what they're investing in, is maybe just doing a structured interview, the best way to go for your department at that time. And so that was another alteration there. And then finally, another alteration that we did in maybe some of you might find this more common, right, and then it happens more naturally, is altering the, the number of your candidate pool, right. And so we started with 125. But we realize that, you know, for instance, we reduced the presumptive baseline, we reduce the candidate pool by five candidates, or even 4% of the existing pool. And we realize that there were some cost savings with that more you to dig a little bit deeper. But we know that some of this will be will come more naturally, as, as people use group process as a weeding tool, right, or vice versa, these structured interviews, and then take all of them to group process, you see that your time and your wages change as you alter those, those two groups.
J.C. Stoner:And just to be clear, you did all these alterations like independent of each other, right? There was like you, you remove group process, then you reset, then you only did structured interviews, reset, adjusted candidate pool size, reset, right?
Apefa Cooper:Yes, that is correct. And so we always went back to the baseline before we made any other alterations.
J.C. Stoner:So I think that brings up a good point about how a department might determine that they value group process, but are still concerned about staff time. So you can then compensate a little bit by either expanding here and reducing here or vice versa. These things don't have to operate in a vacuum or one way or the other is like you can also balance them against each other. Are there any main takeaways that the jumped out of you from your analysis? Or that you discussed in the article?
Apefa Cooper:Yes. And so one of the things the biggest one was really going back to what is the purpose of what we do when it comes to these processes, right? What is the purpose? What do you want to get out of it? One thing that we really wanted to send home, is the fact that sometimes departments and organizations can really get stuck on the idea to overdesign hiring practices or processes as a substitute for subsequent training and supervision at the expense of their staffs time. Right.
J.C. Stoner:I love that.
Apefa Cooper:Yeah. Thinking that, okay, well, if I do this group process, then I don't have to train them on this or I don't, right, I'm looking for this particular person. And because, you know, then I don't have to worry about this part of training, when realizing that, at the end of the day is on the I even told my staff today is and so and maybe maybe some people will go against this, but one thing I'm looking at, are they teachable? They trainable? Do they have the passion to do the job for most of the RAs and the candidates that we see, most of them, this is your first time job, right? Or their first time in a position like this, right? And so to the idea that, okay, you're going to create these processes, so that you don't have to worry about some other things, when it comes to training or supervision allows you to fail. And so hopefully, by doing this, we're putting back on your list to think about when it comes to time, and the energy and even time as when it comes to your your staffs resources, right? Is this all worth it? You know? And so that was I think that was one thing that if I could pull that quote out and write it on a wall somewhere for every practitioner to follow, I would do that.
J.C. Stoner:Well, and I think you're right, when, you know, as your article shows, in this baseline, you spent 300 hours hiring all these RAs in these this convoluted and comprehensive process. And I think sometimes people feel like we invested all this time, and then it sets up for additional disappointment when people fizzle out, or they don't come with the promise that they anticipated being the number one draft pick. And I we've talked on this podcast with a number of people about the best training and recruitment happen in tandem. And so is it is staff accountability, really a training issue? Or is it a recruitment issue in some ways, but I just think that's so important that sometimes we might start to set ourselves up for success because we over design these, as you said for compensating to be like we're gonna find the perfect candidates with our super complicated 300 hour long process.
Apefa Cooper:Yeah, two week process.
J.C. Stoner:That NEVER ends.
Apefa Cooper:Yes, yes. And another thing that we also wanted to do was There was a while departments and practitioners to define their own goals, right? What is the goal? And I think I've said this a lot with what is your why and what is the what, right? And the purpose of what we do? Do you want interest sessions to be a way to do that as part of the interview process? Or do you just want that as an informational tool, right? And then if you do that, can you put that on a website? Okay, you record that where it takes only one RD or one entry level professional, and one hour, and it's out there for for 24/7? Right? Can you do that? And so allowing practitioners and departments to really think to what is my goal here? What is the purpose? You know.
J.C. Stoner:And I think, I know, people would say it's important to educate people about the position, and I couldn't agree more. But I think you're right, like there's, there's probably better ways to do it, especially now that departments have, at least for two years, learned how to use virtual modalities better, even though it seems we're all gung ho to go back to the way things used to be without consideration for the benefits that we might be able to move forward with. But you're right, the point about is an interest session, if the goal of hiring processes is to identify strong candidates, how is an interest session doing that if you're not evaluating it, like if there's no evaluation metrics, nothing leading to a score that's being considered, it is absolutely a waste of staff time for the purpose of identifying candidates. Now, again, it may be the purpose of educating them, which is important. But that needs to be very clear to everyone involved.
Apefa Cooper:Right, right.
J.C. Stoner:And one of the statements that comes out that stuck with me is like fit I'm quoting here: "although it may appear the analysis focused on time efficiency, it really should be viewed as focused on being purposeful and intentional with staff time." And I think that goes to your point.
Apefa Cooper:And then maybe there may be some departments and practitioners thinking, well, like, I already have this, like, we've been doing this for the last 20 years, I there's no way I can go back and tell my team we're getting let's revisit, and maybe some of you are brave enough to do that. And one thing that we you know, even listed in the article is perhaps instead of building out a comprehensive hiring process, and maybe working backwards and looking at the staff workloads, right, we know that 20 years ago, the recruitment process, yes, we would be doing the same thing. But things have changed. Right now we're in a post pandemic world, right? Where were some of the questions and the things that we do may not be the same thing. And the workload is different, right? And outside of the hiring process is different. Right now, you're not only doing, you know, bi weekly one-on-ones, but in between those one on ones, you're also doing resident check-ins, right, and your entry level professionals are doing that. Right. And then outside of that they're sitting on committees for mental health and how to, you know, give back to our students, right, on a broad scale. And so there are other things that are involved now in that play, that are outside of some of the processes that we do, right? Forget recruitment process, right? If you look at some other things, right, it's even if it's training or, or other processes that you do in your department thinking through when you look at your staff workload, and you look at the time, how can you work backwards, so they you make sure your employees are bringing the best version to themselves, right, or themselves? And so yeah, that's something that I would say, work backwards and try and figure that out.
J.C. Stoner:Yeah. And that brings up a great point about, there's a very important emphasis and necessary critique that processes need to be equitable and fair, and how are people being treated the same? And I think about even an entry-level staff with a masters degree who has been sitting for eight hours interviewing, asking the same eight questions 16 times in a day, is the person at the end of the day getting treated the same as the person at the first slot of the day? Because I know from TPE, it's like, the end of the day is just like, can it get here fast enough? And you got to wonder about that. And so how is that being reflected in scores and how is that working?
Apefa Cooper:We even talked about that to have maybe some departments are thinking well, if I do that by breaking it up into half days, right? Well, one thing we want to challenge is look at the cost and benefit of that. And if you do have days, you do that for a whole month. This is worth you know, or do you power through it right and provide the necessary resources and the necessary time and energy right to be able to invest in, in that and so that 8:00am, you know, interview
versus that 7:00pm interview, are those the same thing, you know, and I and it's also funny I remember those times were like, right up right before lunch, the right before lunch interviews are hard. Because you know, it's like, okay, that's my last one. If they say one more thing about X, Y, and Z, you know, and they you start skipping the "Do you have any questions for us?"
J.C. Stoner:"You don't have any questions for us." Or the If I hear one more person say, "I just want to build community." I'm gonna scream.
Apefa Cooper:Yes! Yeah. You know, I will say this, though. It's funny as a side thing, but more and more they're honest about why they're applying. Like we've had to even just wonder, like, I have to, I can live here for free.
J.C. Stoner:Yeah!
Apefa Cooper:Oh, okay. Good. I'm so glad to be honest. Like, we put that on the job description for a reason.
J.C. Stoner:Seriously, I can't describe how many people would immediately downvote somebody for that. It's like, we were brainwashed in grad school to think like, "No, you gotta have a passion for the job. And that's what it's all about." Which then the now I'm getting on my soapbox, unrelated to your article. But that is what's feeding, like the epidemic of people with job dissatisfaction is because they, we brainwashed everyone into thinking that your entire identity of passion is wrapped up in your job. And when guess what? Jobs suck from time to time, then it's like, "I don't have an identity anymore. My identity is terrible." And that's the problem. "And so now my entire life is dissatisfied."
Apefa Cooper:Yeah, yeah.
J.C. Stoner:Sorry. That was my soapbox.
Apefa Cooper:Really? No, I like that. I like that. Because I don't know if we talked about this after, you know, after this article came out. Okay, after this one, what is the next article? And I think one thing that I walked away with from this was a key thing. At the end of the day, what are you doing right? What do I want to really study staff satisfaction? Right? If we can go back and say, okay, the work is not done, but I can walk away from this. And I know this is a side thing. But that's something that I'll be interested in doing. At the end of the day, you know, that first year entry level professional, who was super excited for their first RA recruitment process in the third year, will they still have the same excitement? Right, and what could they do to get back to that, right? So...
J.C. Stoner:Yeah. I was talking to my wife, Andrea, just a couple of nights ago, and I've shared this with staff over the last couple years. It's like, "do you just love your job?" I'm like, "No, I happen to enjoy it more often than I don't." But it's not like I'm in love with my job where it's the only thing that is like, makes me, me, it's like we're people and do things like but when we wrapped up so much in our job, and then we feed that to the RAs where they're like, "Oh, what is going on here?"
Apefa Cooper:Yes, yeah. And then you see the RA, he's begging another candidate not to apply. And you're like, you're helping me with this interview? Why are you telling me you know, for whatever it is. So that's a different topic at different article. Come back next year!
J.C. Stoner:Yeah, a whole other podcast episode... But the other thing I'll say is going back to the point earlier, about over engineering the process, and like, I also think about all the times where somebody, an entry level professional has like cried during draft, because they didn't get a pick or something happened. And it's like, Do you not trust yourself to be a good supervisor?
Apefa Cooper:Right.
J.C. Stoner:And I know, people in our collective past would say, I'll take middle of the road people all day long. And I think it was the Craig Seager podcast episode where it's like, we were all alternates. And here we are, like, you know, like, I seriously had to step in once in a recruitment process, because an RD left like right before and I had read, no files, I had interviewed no candidates. And I just went based on the numbers from the process, down the list. And it was a great staff. They were all kind of middle of the road, and it was just fantastic. So there's some props--I mean, I guess some support and over engineering processes because it worked for me. What do you think the smallest actionable takeaway that any listener could do with this information just to put research into practice? Like what's something an entry level professional could do in their own practice?
Apefa Cooper:That's a good question.
J.C. Stoner:Not cry during draft? That's the first step.
Apefa Cooper:Not cry. I think just evaluate your time. And maybe for you and I'll talk to two groups here, where I feel at the front, the entry level professional, maybe this is your first semester and you're about to go through or you just got done, whatever, wherever this period is, while you're about to go through your interview process, thinking through okay, how do I manage my time? Right? But then also advocate. Advocate for yourself. Right? And seeing Okay, sharing with your supervisor, okay, I have five conduct cases, I have 30 minute conduct cases I have to do tomorrow, right? Can I step away and do that? And then come back for a half half day interview? Or can I work with my team while
we both we take turns:two RDs we'll do the first two days and the other two do the second two days? Or the other two days? You know, and so really evaluating your time assessing that, and then also advocating and then for the other group in the room, which are more of the practitioners and one thing we did intentionally was leave out the the the mid-level and upper-level professionals because usually their the ones who oversee the back end, right? They set it all up and then the they just check it and then nothing wrong with that, you know, what I will say? Nothing wrong with just checking in, you know, but typically, you know, the director is usually the one saying, "Hey, how's it going? How are things going? Did we get a good group," you know, what we may be looking at your staff time and not being afraid to, to invent the wheel. Right, and and to assess, like, we talked about looking at some of the goals and the purpose of what we're doing. And things that have been done that we're we were doing 20 years ago, maybe is not a good fit right now. Right? And maybe you don't need five activities for the group process. Or you don't need five 30-minute interviews, for one candidate, you know, assessing that and really breaking down, what do I want to get out of out of this interview process? What kind of candidates do we want to get? How are we going to supplement why the trainings and do the trainings? And, and what do we need to make sure that they're successful in the role after I have hired them? Right. And so I'm looking at those things and assessing them.
J.C. Stoner:The one thing I would recommend is, I love this, that you actually cited a comic strip in this article, where Dilbert is asking his boss on which categories of priorities,
he should stop working:essential, critical, or must haves. And so my recommendation for an entry level professional is just to print that comic strip out and put it on your bulletin board. Because I think it's a perfect illustration of the larger issue.
Apefa Cooper:Yeah.
J.C. Stoner:But I think you're right, advocating is probably a good piece and doing a little bit of analysis, you know, in home campuses, where if you are a entry level professional on a recruitment committee, it's like, take a look at like, what would it mean, and how much time would be saved? Or what does that convert to dollars? Because, unfortunately, often the people at the top don't quite comprehend the downstream effects of time, but when you start putting dollars behind it, then it becomes a budget issue. And how does that then change the tone and delivery of the message that's trying to be communicated? I have to ask, when you were done with this article, did you have a higher appreciation for the value of your time?
Apefa Cooper:Absolutely. Absolutely. There is. So I kept thinking about the whole time. There were times I was like,"Okay, well, how much how much money you make any paid?" And not No, not in a really bad way? I think it was just more of a joke to me. But yes, I did. And I also set boundaries, right? And it allowed me to think through some of the boundaries I hadn't set before, and really cost me to think about these things. But I Yes. 100%.
J.C. Stoner:I think there's a lot of application to this article. Like in other areas besides recruitment, like you mentioned training earlier, but I just want to provide one little example of like downstream effects of like being mindful of time. And this is an operations example because that's where I work now. But like I have students under my supervisory umbrella, and basically in the summer, one of the main responsibilities is to go walk units that have been made-ready just to come firm that nothing got missed, they fill out a form that reports everything's good or any issues needing attention. I was starting to notice that some of our students being very diligent, they would say everything's ready, except for there's a dead bug on the counter. And so they would go out there. And then they would come back and fill this report. And now I'm like, I got to correct this problem of a bug. And it's like, okay, I now have to call housekeeping or send a coordinator or somebody out, it's going to take half an hour to like, get out to the unit then get keys, drive, get back, get a golf cart, all these things, just to take care of this bug. So or if only the student had just picked up the bug and thrown it away, in 60 seconds, we would have saved potentially an hour or more to resolve this problem. And so thinking critically about that, it's like, okay, I invested like$200 in these go-bags, and they have a little vacuum in it. So now it's like any little problem that takes less than two minutes to resolve, they have the equipment to do it. And it saves it costs them a minute of time. But it saves like an hour of coordination and multiple staffs time to like, go resolve it in the sense. So there's a lot of application out there, if you'd like think about is like how do we solve problems upstream? Or opportunity costs of going down?
Apefa Cooper:I agree. I think it was even one of the podcasts and maybe maintenance, the preventative maintenance. Something along those lines, too. Yeah. Why? Why call somebody in when you're already there. You can you can take care of it. I think it was like maybe the RD on call was responding to something. And so as you're saying that it reminded me of that example, too.
J.C. Stoner:Yeah. And I think there's plenty of those examples. Like when you start seeing routine, irritants and our jobs, whether it's like I have to type the same email over and over and over again, it's like, okay, well, it takes me five minutes to type the same email, or if I just created like, a little button on the email that's like, auto populates a quick step or something. It's like, boom, Fill and Fill in, I've just now saved four minutes of time times 1000, over the next 10 years. Like, it's really fun to think about.
Apefa Cooper:It really is, it really is. And I think it's also been fun to play around with with these themes, you know, as we laid it out, you know, eliminating as we were eliminating certain components of it. Just fun to play around with it in your in your role, right. In case, we didn't take me more time. And sometimes, I haven't do that with how I'm organizing my to do list, right? And keep I know that it's going to take me more time to do this, versus this one, can I get it done first, or you know, and so even something as little as that. That's how you can apply this. Because we know even you know, we both still work in that housing realm in different areas. There was no, no day is the same. Right? I think Adonis is to say--How have I quoted Adonis, like, twice already?
J.C. Stoner:You're one of the fan girls that I was talking about!
Apefa Cooper:I'm a big fan of you, Adonis! By no saying that, you know, I think I think he was even talking about knowing that, you know, I think for for Adonis, I think he mentioned this, but knowing that no day is the same. So he talked a little bit about even like he wants his day to be boring. To stay boring, right and not exciting. But also knowing that I have to drop whatever I'm doing, right. And so imagine doing an interview during the interview process, the fire alarm goes off, right, and everybody in the building has to evacuate. Like that's all time, right? The adding into even as little as this of knowing that. Okay, my week, I can plan the week in advance. But if I can guarantee it is not going to go the way I planned it, right, and being able to move things around based on some time that I can do. And can I do this next week? Or is this worth it right? At this time?
J.C. Stoner:So yeah, it's that old that military saying of like, battle plans are great until the first shot is fired. And it all then is just trying to figure it out as we go. It's really fun to think about because we do these things, hopefully to save time, but you can quantify them even more. And I think this is this article is a good illustration of that, like these go-bags I made. I was like, it cost me $200 to put this all together. I mean, maybe a little more, but it's like how long is it going to take for this little effort to pay off? And so I added a question on the form they fill out is like did you use the go bag to make this room move-in ready? And if they did something they would say yes. If they did no, then it was good as was and within like, two weeks, I calculated like 30 minutes per visit, because of like a housekeeper having to go out and clean something up or like a table that they would have to wipe down. I mean, it paid for itself within a week and a half or two weeks, in terms of like a housekeeper salary over that many times, and it was just amazing. It's like this is some of the most powerful things in our profession are not the most glamorous, but they're also the most effective in terms of like moving a department forward, at least in my opinion, right.
Apefa Cooper:Now, I was going to talk a little bit about also just when it comes to, like you said, innovation and efficiency, right, it makes our lives easier, right? When it comes to some of the things that we do, as you were saying that you can.
J.C. Stoner:So I always like to close out these article review episodes with some thoughts surrounding the experience of publishing and being a practitioner scholar. This is to kind of help normalize and demystify the experience. This was the first article you published. What was the feeling like when you finally saw your name in print?
Apefa Cooper:I didn't believe it. I was like, really? This is Wow, no way. You know, I don't really remember. Because I couldn't believe it. But it was really cool. It was really cool. I think there was a lot going on. I do remember at the time prior to them when I made the decision to be a part of it. And even after there were so many things that were happening at that time. And so for a moment, I wanted to be very humble and about it. I mean, I think I feel like I still am humble about it, but I don't think my mom knows. And so I think I was just like,"really that's cool. Okay, well, I'm gonna just keep going about my day." No, I can't, I can't do anything crazy. It was really cool. It was really cool to see my name. And I should probably tell my mom, or maybe send her this podcast.
J.C. Stoner:Yeah send her this podcast. So what was the publishing process like then?
Apefa Cooper:Since it was my first experience, I honestly did not know completely what the start and the end process was, I think the fun part was, and I think maybe the most surprising, at the same time was getting it back and was like, Oh, that sounded way better than I thought, you know, with the editing process, right. I think that was the fun part of it. And I kept thinking "they said it better" or and at the end, I was like, wait, did I write this? But it was really fun. It was really fun to go through that process. I think because I did a more non-traditional, you know, research article like this. For me, it was it was easy for me to understand. I don't have a lot of research background. And I did psychology when I was in undergrad and went straight to do, you know, college student personnel. And so here and there, but I always told myself, I'm not really the research type. And so for me, I had to challenge myself in this way. But it was really fun. And it was really exciting to go through the process of identifying it and I wanted to sound good, right, I wanted to write well, at the same time, I also wanted people to relate. And so there were times where I just had to write it out, you know, and write out what I was thinking, because that's really what I was thinking. And then you know, when it came back, it was even better than what I imagined. And, and I know J.C. you have more experience on the editing part. And so if you want to talk more about like, really what that process looks like when they come back, and it's edited, and, and it's still your information, it's still the idea that you had, but it is worded in a better format, and more intelligent format.
J.C. Stoner:I wouldn't say more intelligent, but I think that that part is it's hard to see something like not necessarily the editing process, but like collaborating with somebody else. And especially somebody who may have more experience where like you write something and I shared this with a number of people that I've helped edit papers with over the years where it's like, this isn't what I wrote. And I'm like, but it is, it's just your idea and you communicated this, somebody else just kind of polished it a little bit for the delivery. But everything you had even if it doesn't look anything like it, it was your idea. It was your thought, your argument you made, it's just been polished up a little bit. And as you get more experienced with that it becomes a little bit easier and it helps in that way. And I think that's maybe one of the could be a very discouraging thing for a new author to have either in the editing process or a co-author come in and rewrite an entire section that there was MY section and now it's YOUR section like, No, I just polished it up a little bit, or, you know, made it a little bit more coherent or flowed a little differently. But it's still your idea. And that's the thing that I think is important. But you talk about how, like, you know, your feelings throughout? In what ways did you grow throughout this writing for publication process, like as a professional or skills or feelings?
Apefa Cooper:I think my writing grew in some of the ways that I was thinking through how to articulate what the message was, right? And what the idea was, I think I've looked back at me, I know we say more with the editing that comes back. But I think as we were always going back and forth, I realized that I, like my writing changed. And it was exciting, right? And so it was, it's thinking more outside of, of my, how I would write an email write in more of okay, how do I want to get this across? And another thing too, knowing that he was going to going to go out to the world, right? And the idea that--and I don't know at one point where I understood this, but the idea that, yes, I'm the one in it, like, I'm the one doing the research, I'm looking at this every day or every week, or however long, right? But for somebody who's going to read this, this will be their first time reading this. And so it needs we need to tell the story where they're able to understand you're not have to feel like, okay, let me go back again, like what did that mean? And yes, ours is full of numbers. But the idea is that at the end of the day, or at the end of the page, right, you can understand what the concept was. And so I think I do in that aspect, and I'm sure there are other areas, I felt like I grew. And in the moment, by looking back, I think that was one area.
J.C. Stoner:What about like, just general? Any general confidence or command?
Apefa Cooper:Yes, yes. Yes. I'm sorry. I didn't mean to be so enthused about that...
J.C. Stoner:YES!
Apefa Cooper:That is so true. And I grew so much of my confidence. And even when I saw my name in print, I was like, Yeah, this is cool. But I grew very much when it came to, to what I, what I understood about the topic and my confidence in how I was articulating what we were finding. And so I will say that, and I think, you know, five years ago, if you had asked, or told me that I was going to be publishing an article, I would have said, No way. Absolutely not. Right, like, and now I'm like, yeah, I'm excited to see if I get to write another one, and this might be in at the topic area that I'm interested in, or, you know, and so, definitely, I'm not scared of it. Now, yes, there's a lot of work in it. But you know, it's just, it's exciting to put in that work and to see the finished work.
J.C. Stoner:But you also, you and I did a program at the virtual SWACUHO, who ho about writing for publication as a tool for professional development. And while the program wasn't necessarily a success due to some technology issues, I think there's a lot of good points in there about like crafting a narrative and building an argument. Like skills that are important for professionals to have because as you advance, you got to build arguments to a director or VP about budgets or proposals for programs or whatever. It's like, having another tool in your toolkit is so important.
Apefa Cooper:Yeah, I agree.
J.C. Stoner:But I also think that program is a good example, going back to the very beginning, like this article was somewhat inspired by a program that was done at SWACUHO, a few years ago, and then it was converted into an article. And now it's been converted back into that virtual program on a different topic. And on Dustin, Grabsch's episode, we talked about the value of like, these different venues of like, the people who go to a conference aren't always the people read the journal, and the people who read the journal aren't always people read the talking stick. And how how do you communicate your ideas out to different audiences in different ways, and I think that's a valuable skill also. Apefa you talked about, like, Oh, or joked maybe, maybe a little bit about like, Oh, I'm going to look at this once a week or when I'm doing it every day. How did you actually balance it with your job responsibilities at the time?
Apefa Cooper:So at one point, I knew this is important to me, and I wanted to do well when it came to being a part of this experience in the process of publicizing or publishing an article and so, yeah, I had to rearrange my schedule, though times I came in early, early in the morning to do it before the day started, because I knew that, you know, although this was a professional development for me, and something I thought, and I and I do think and I was told that the time that my department will be productive, I knew that I had to really make that time outside of what I was doing to do a good job at it. And so I came in early and stayed in a little bit later. And those were some boundaries that I set for myself to do that. And so that was the time and I think it paid off. But you know, I look back and there are times, and I don't think we even talked a lot of our may talk about and then a little bit, but there are times where I reflect on this when it comes specifically to the recruitment processes that I have been involved in after I wrote this article. Right. I know, we talked a lot about other things, right. But then I remember doing we're running an interview process. And I was like, Okay, well, we need to look at our time, you know, and I remember seeing that, and even so casually, and I thought I was like, that was my article. But yeah, and so I looked back at, I don't know, your question was more of how did I balance my time? I think in the long run, it came full circle right? Now, right, I use that time I put in this work, I've learned a lot. And now I'm applying it to what I'm doing. Right? I'm thinking about and I'm making some changes in my own career and own my own field, you know,
J.C. Stoner:Knowing you for several years now I can say with almost 100% certainty that pre published scholar Apefa never would have said that so casually three years ago. Yes. So I think that shows that an amazing amount of growth and confidence in the topic matter. You mentioned your department when it was published. did anyone in your division reach out? Did you feel any gain--Like did you gain any divisional capital because of this new title you had?
Apefa Cooper:Oh, you know... Yeah, I think I think it was sent out to our VP or Associate Vice President at the time that, you know, had said congratulations, and was really proud of that, I think, yes, it did. There were some other people in our department that also had their articles published at the same time. And so it was nice to be recognized alongside them. And I will say this, you know, something I will give to any full time professional, let your department know that this is something that you're working on. And I think for me, I wanted to make sure I was doing a good job. And so I didn't really share a lot. Clearly, I've never even told my mom. But you know, letting the department know so that they can support you throughout the process, and not necessarily always on the very end. You know what I mean? And so, but I will say that the department was proud. And even beyond that there are other people that did reach out.
J.C. Stoner:Did it ever come up in any of your job interviews
Apefa Cooper:It definitely did. I had an interview and at the since then? end, it was a very, very wonderful interview. And that's interesting. I actually reading journal and I looked at your name, or I looked at your resume, and I was like, surely those are the same. That's the same person was like, yeah, it's just like, Oh, my goodness, tell me more of an article and at the end she was like "can I get your autograph?" "of course! do I get the job?" No, it was it was fun. It was really fun and I blushed all the time. And I was like, No way you read my article, know somebody at a different at a higher level, you know, who's doing the interview. And so yeah, that was really fun.
J.C. Stoner:I love that. I love that. The only the only people have ever gotten an autographed copy of any article I've written is ones I've given away as a joke during presentations where people participate. Here you go, you get an autographed copy.
Apefa Cooper:That's awesome.
J.C. Stoner:Alright, Apefa, before we close out any last minute thoughts or considerations you'd like to share?
Apefa Cooper:I think this was this was a really fun experience for me. Like we mentioned, I did it when I was an RD and full time entry level professional and I learned a lot. And I would say for anybody who is hesitant about even dipping their toes in it, go for it, go for it, talk to your supervisor, talk to your department, work with somebody and so especially if it's your first time you know I co-authored with another person and then, but it was, I learned a lot from them, but then also from that process as well. And so don't be afraid. I think J.C. has the statistics with the numbers when it comes to how many professionals have published them published within SWACUHO and even the breakdown within the region. Like, it'll be so cool to see that number grow. And so encouraged, be encouraged. Know that if I can do it, if you know me, and if I can do it, then you can do it too. And get on with it. Write your thoughts down, write some things that you're thinking about what are you passionate about, you know, write it all down what are some caring things are you're already doing in your role, write it down and start building on it, and reach out to J.C. so he can tell you when the next article is going--or when calls for article will be coming out so you can jump on it.
J.C. Stoner:And that's a wrap for our third article review on the SWACUHO podcast. I want to thank Apefa for coming on the show... AGAIN, and spending some of her VALUABLE time with us today sharing how to quantify and be intentional with the most valuable resource we have at our disposal: Our staff personnel. Make sure you read the entire article linked in the show notes for even more examples and considerations. Please reach out and thank Apefa for joining us today via her preferred social media profile in the show notes. Next month is August, which means this podcast has been going on for a full year. To celebrate, I've got something special cooked up. On nearly every episode I have solicited for people to send questions in or ask for advice. So next month, we are finally going to answer some of those questions. I've been asking various guests along the way to weigh in on your questions. To give you a little taste of what's to come, we have questions about weekly reports, how to move forward in your department after not getting a job you applied for as an internal candidate, how to respond when a boss very publicly takes responsibility for your obvious mistake, and being the only Professional of Color on an interview team that everyone defers to when answering departmental support questions about supporting Professionals of Color. And with that, I say to you good day