This month is special as it rounds off one full year of the SWACUHO Podcast. To celebrate, we are answering listener questions. Four people wrote in over the course of the year asking for advice. Along the way, I've recorded various guests answering these questions. For dedicated listeners, you will recognize every voice today as a repeat guest.
Today we are responding to the following topics:
Thanks for your continued listenership over the past year! It's been a fun ride so far. Make sure to share the podcast with others if you think they will get value from it.
Episode 012 Reflection Guide
Seeking professional advice? Fill out this anonymous form and a panel of housing staff will give you their take on your situation on an upcoming podcast.
Past Episodes Mentioned:
Episode 001 - Reflections From a Single Institution Career | Kent Sampson [Past President]
Episode 003 - Resident Assistant Hiring Practices | Craig Seager [Article Review]
Episode 006 - Student Staff Accountability: Demerits of Development? | Alana St. Cyr, Victor Salazar, and Jason Titus [Feature Topic]
Episode 007 - Overthinking Everything in Campus Housing | Jasmine Jennings and Sara Frick [Book Club]
Episode 010 - Read, File, Delete, or Ignore: Email Management | Monique Berkley and Maggie Guzman [Feature Topic]
Episode 011 - Intentional or Misspent Resources in RA Hiring Processes | Apefa Cooper [Article Review]
Episode B01 - Live Recording at the 2022 SWACUHO Conference
This month is special as it rounds off one full year of the SWACUHO Podcast. To celebrate, we are answering listener questions. Four people wrote in over the course of the year asking for advice. Along the way, I've recorded various guests answering these questions. For dedicated listeners, you will recognize every voice today as a repeat guest.
Today we are responding to the following topics:
Thanks for your continued listenership over the past year! It's been a fun ride so far. Make sure to share the podcast with others if you think they will get value from it.
Episode 012 Reflection Guide
Seeking professional advice? Fill out this anonymous form and a panel of housing staff will give you their take on your situation on an upcoming podcast.
Past Episodes Mentioned:
Episode 001 - Reflections From a Single Institution Career | Kent Sampson [Past President]
Episode 003 - Resident Assistant Hiring Practices | Craig Seager [Article Review]
Episode 006 - Student Staff Accountability: Demerits of Development? | Alana St. Cyr, Victor Salazar, and Jason Titus [Feature Topic]
Episode 007 - Overthinking Everything in Campus Housing | Jasmine Jennings and Sara Frick [Book Club]
Episode 010 - Read, File, Delete, or Ignore: Email Management | Monique Berkley and Maggie Guzman [Feature Topic]
Episode 011 - Intentional or Misspent Resources in RA Hiring Processes | Apefa Cooper [Article Review]
Episode B01 - Live Recording at the 2022 SWACUHO Conference
I'm J.C. Stoner and this is the SWACUHO podcast. Before we get into today's special episode, I have to share an interesting piece of data I pulled from the download stats. It appears the city with the most downloads over the course of the last year is not in Arkansas, not in Oklahoma, and not in Texas. It's actually Frankfurt, Germany. So to all our German listeners, thanks for your loyalty and continued listenership. Please reach out to me at swacuhopodcast@gmail.com as I'd love to chat with you, because I'm curious who you are, and why you keep coming back, and if the podcast has brought any value to you, perhaps we can get a few of you on the show in the future and talk shop. The city with the second most downloads is Richardson, Texas, which happens to be where my home campus is located. So threatening my staff with demerits and lower performance appraisal ratings the first Monday of every month appears to be working. A few other fun stats for you assessment junkies out there. We've had 17 different guests this year. There have been over 750 downloads. We've had three interviews with Past Presidents, three interviews with regional scholar practitioners about their research. We've had three feature topics. We've had two book clubs, and even a live recording at the annual conference. Our most downloaded episode this past year was Episode 003's article review with Craig Seeger sitting at nearly 150 downloads. This episode rounds out one full year. We came together the first Monday of every month, plus a bonus episode from the annual conference in February. Even though it's August, I still squirreled away a few moments to self-reflect, which I hope you will indulge me. My aim of this podcast was to provide an opportunity for self directed professional development for our members. I'm a big believer in trying to control your own professional development destiny instead of waiting for others to provide "opportunities" to us. I personally believe professional development is generally skewed these days to be superficial objects for attainment, like another bullet on the resume but not always associated with actual professional growth, and even worse, without much skill development. And sadly, most of these traditional opportunities are handed down as an opportunity for growth, reinforcing the narrative that development can only be received and not created. Throughout this podcast, we've had members and retired members share their stories. The common questions I asked revolve around small scale things they have done with big impacts. I've asked about missed opportunities and opportunities they wish they would have passed on. I asked our practitioner scholars what the smallest thing anyone can do to put their research into practice. And we even had two book clubs with tangible things to put into practice. Example, after example, after example of accessible and actionable things young professionals can do with full control. Now our guests didn't give them to you on a platter or spoon feed you with an action item list. But I truly believe that there have been plenty of things to try out along the way. All that is left is for you to give them a try. This podcast has been a ton of fun, but also a labor of love. If you've gotten anything from this podcast, anything at all, please let me know by emailing me at swacuhopodcast@gmail.com because I'd love to hear from you. Even if only as validation that this labor of love hasn't been for nothing... other than for me getting to connect with new and old friends alike. Feel free to send me topic suggestions. So enough of my soapbox. I'm excited about today's episode because on nearly every single episode, I have encouraged SWACUHO members to submit questions or ask for advice. It's been slow going gathering enough questions and I feel it might be like how nobody goes to a restaurant they see nobody eating at, so maybe this episode will inspire more professionals to seek out advice from people outside their direct echo chamber. As questions came in, I asked guests I was already interviewing to weigh in. So longtime listeners will recognize all of our guests today. Our responding guests know only what is read to them on the air. Plus the self reported pronouns provided by the person asking the question. I've got four inquiries today. So let's begin. The first thing out of the inbox is being fielded by the guests of Episode 006. We have a lot of St. Cyr a second yearr residence coordinator at the University of Central Arkansas, Victor Salazar, the Director of Residence Life at Our Lady of the Lake University, and Jason Titus, Associate Director for Housing and Residence Life at Texas Christian University.
The letter states:Dear podcast, I'm a hall director. And by noon every day, I have to review this report I receive and basically fact check the information in it to see if there's any follow up necessary. Every hall director has to do these in their building. The problem is, I have no idea why we have to do this because it seems so inconsequential in the grand scheme of things. In fact, a few times I forgot to do them or was out of the office, and nobody seemed to notice that they didn't get done. There was no follow up. So it makes me wonder if there's actually a point to doing them. I've asked my supervisor what the purpose of these reports are and the response I got was, "we just have to do them." I seriously have spent a fair amount of time trying to think about why we do these reports and what benefit there are to the department. But I can't think of anything. Believe me... I've tried. I guess knowing the why behind them really won't change my practice, because they really are simple and straightforward. It's just annoying to have to spend five minutes a day doing this. Wouldn't my department rather me be spending my time on something more meaningful? Is there a way to figure out the purpose of these reports without being annoying? And are there any strategies to get out of doing this seemingly pointless task? Sincerely, Daily Reporter.
Jason Titus:I'll go first, I doubt it's pointless. What I would venture to guess is the point doesn't happen at your level or even a level above it. I would imagine at some point in time, there's a lawsuit. And that lawsuit hit. And because whether or not it was successfully defended or not by the university, or because that happen, I'm willing to guess that you now have a policy practice in place, that you can say we do this, I guarantee that we do this and your director, whomever can, you know, sit there and tell whoever needs to be told, you know, either legal legal counsel or whomever this isn't a practice at all my characters do, we guarantee this exists. And this occurs, because if it doesn't have oversight over it, no one's checking to make sure it's being done, then the output of it isn't what's important, right, at least not epically important. So it's the presence of it that's important. And in my experience, when the presence is important, is because typically, someone either got in trouble somewhere or someone got sued somewhere. And so that is what I would offer as a hypothetical why, if that is the case, in either suit, you have to be very careful in how you challenge it. Because what you're challenging in that case, would be either a lawsuit someone had gotten pulled into, and this this exists, or the trouble someone got into and thus this exists. And oftentimes, that makes it a little bit more personal. So is it worth that? To not have to do your five minutes? Or would it be worth doing the mindless task, it sounds like for five minutes, to not walk a political minefield of accidentally going to the wrong person and bashing the thing that they may have been pulled into unfortunate circumstances about or created to avoid unfortunate circumstances. So unfortunately, that entry level positions often have these kinds of things. And so I would say, if I'm you, it's probably worth just me doing the task. And just knowing it's better than figuring out a way out of a lawsuit than me. And and that's what I would say, obviously a hypothetical why I have no idea where you are, or if your institution actually got sued. So please don't come after me.
J.C. Stoner:You heard it here first.
Victor Salazar:I learned in my grad program, the importance of having an elevator conversation ready, whether that's for feedback for ideas, you know, if you found yourself in the elevator with the director, with the President with whoever it is, and what would you share with them? I think, as an entry level staff member, you're probably not going to get the answer that you're looking for day to day basis about why you have to perform this task. But if you ever have the opportunity to share intentional feedback with the director or the decision makers of your department, having some critical feedback and having that part of your day to day activities. Part of that is important and not just to challenge the task, but for better understanding of why it is what is this information being used for? Or is there another creative way that we can get the same information, but I think it's important for us to continue to be challenged, as long as it's being done in a in a respectful and in a constructive manner. So just just be ready to share that feedback. At the right moment.
Alana St Cyr:Something is just made me think about was it talked about follow up in the comment, are the reports is going really well every day, like is there a potential for something to go incredibly wrong where you'll need to follow up at some point. So just makes me curious, like, to what extent are we actually going to be utilizing the report, but I really like what the other two said about holding that feedback and maybe sharing that.
J.C. Stoner:From experience, I know that in some of these gopher jobs, so to speak, often yeah, there's not follow up because nobody's paying attention except for when they have to pay attention or it becomes an, you certainly don't want to be on the other side. Again, we have no idea what this report is. So could be daily move out numbers, it can be key audits, it could be COVID meal delivery audits, like programming attendance. I mean, it could be anything, but someday it's going to be asked and glad to have it ready. And yes, here it is. And I think if your boss is saying, "it's just something we have to do," I think that's a coded language for "I don't know," and possibly even "I don't have the political capital that I want to invest in asking about this thing." And I think that's in some ways that can be challenged a little bit, but it also needs to be done respectfully. And that's why--Victor, I've never heard it called that way. But like having a, an elevated conversation on the ready, like, I've talked to staff about that a lot is like you'd never know when you're going to be standing in the elevator with a VP, or a director of another department. And it's like, have something any open forum you go to have a question? Ready? I love that, like elevated conversation on the fly. That is so so great.
Victor Salazar:Yeah, and it definitely comes in handy. You know, I found myself in those situations where I'm with the President, and she'll ask me one random thing, and I'm just ready for that quick piece of feedback, because I'm ready to go. So keep that in mind. Yeah, that's a that's a nugget from my M.Ed program director just have that elevator conversation.
Alana St Cyr:Yeah, you're gonna have to do it every day. Hopefully, you can pair it with something positive. So you're not coming into work like, oh, I have to do this five minute report every day. Because there are little tedious administrative things that we have to do, but we can find a way to make it more positive. I would encourage you to try that.
J.C. Stoner:Alana, I love that. Like on episode 007 we talked about overthinking is like soundtracks and how often we have bad soundtracks playing in our heads. This soundtrack is a perfect one to flip instead of thinking, "these menial reports are a waste of my time," I'd flip that and start telling myself, "these reports provide me an opportunity to demonstrate how consistent I am." Because don't kid yourself, everyone wants to be a shining star of greatness as a staff member. But you know what I want from my staff more than blazes of greatness? Consistency. Five minutes a day to show my boss how I'm the most consistent employee they have? I take that opportunity any day. Hell, I'd even tell my boss anytime somebody is on vacation, I'll take an extra five minutes to do theirs, too. So that might be one way to make it a little bit more palatable is to think about like what, even though it's small, there's like, what kind of benefit? Are you getting out of demonstrating consistency in those areas?
Victor Salazar:So So choose your battles kind of thing? You know, maybe this isn't the administrative task you want to have. You want to fight, you know, if this is really one quick thing that's going to happen for five minutes every day, it's not going to be the last administrators task you have to do that seems menial and pointless. So choose your battles.
J.C. Stoner:And then also, I would think about like, if you're if you're not getting any traction with your supervisor, and like, why are we doing these? And you're trying, like, how do we get out of them? Well, you may learn that you can't get out of them. But maybe you can advocate in such a way where it's like, Is it really necessary to do it every day anymore? Like, is this something as I learned more? Or is this something maybe we can do Monday, Wednesday, Fridays, or Mondays and Thursdays or something like that, like, you can't always get the victory you want of not doing these things, but you might be able to make it a little bit more manageable. And if you actually advocate and got that to happen, Boy, I bet you'd be the hero among all your other peers who are doing these things, too. Is there a particular way? I guess, the follow up or the particular way? Like they've specifically asked how do we address it without being annoying? Is there another strategy that either of you would suggest just talking to their supervisor?
Victor Salazar:You know, I know, they they, I think in the letter had mentioned that they had mentioned it to their supervisor. And honestly, if the supervisor said, we just got to do it, you know, I think like you mentioned, it's probably code for either. I don't know why. And that's above my paygrade. Or I had to do it, you have to do it, we just all got to do it. And sometimes being okay with having a vague response, like you may you may not get to the nuts and bolts of every single decision or why things have to happen. So you have to sometimes be okay with just not knowing
Alana St Cyr:Oh, I think I mean, yes, you did ask her any but maybe applying it more to the position like I want to be able to find value in the things that I'm doing. And so I just want to know, like, how is this impacting my role? Maybe How can I do better? How can I apply this more to my position? I don't know if that maybe change of lens would do anything for them instead of just why do I have to do this?
J.C. Stoner:I would also ask this person to reflect upon was the timing right the first time around because sometimes we get short answers when the timing is bad and You know, maybe that's not fair to the person asking the question, but sometimes the greatest skill is recognizing like, is the moment is this the golf shot right now? And it could be any number of reasons. And one of the last thing I want to think about is these those dumb reports, and I don't want to answer any questions about it. So maybe the timing was wrong. And so approaching your supervisor be like, I had asked about this before, maybe the timing wasn't right, but then launching into what you were saying a lot about that those kind of follow up of like, I'd like to be a better employee or like to know a little bit more so I can get get more or give provide more to the department. The next item out of the inbox has been fielded by the guests of Episode 007, Jasmine Jennings, Senior Coordinator for Students, Staff Recruitment, Training and Advising at Baylor University, and Sarah Frick, Assistant Director for Apartment and Residence Life at the University of Texas at Arlington. Dear J.C., my supervisor, an Assistant Director, recently moved on, which obviously left a vacancy in my department, I'm in my third year and the minimum job experience for the AD role is three years with a preferred requirement of five years experience. I want to apply, but I'm anxious to do so because I've never interviewed as an internal candidate. I think it would be weird to interview with people I work with all day, every day, if I don't get the job, I think it would be really weird returning to work. I'll have a boss who got a job I wanted. And what if they don't count my years of experience because it isn't three full years. But it's CLOSE! I think I would be a good fit for the job. My annual performance evaluations have been strong. And I've done good work in my building and on my committees. So my questions are this: What should I be thinking about when determining if I should apply or not? And do you have any advice for internal candidates? And if I do apply and don't get it, how are things I'm going to be in my work environment? Thanks so much, Internalized Candidate
Sara Frick:Well, that is a very good question. A very detailed, and also for me hits very close to home, I can relate very deeply to this question as prior to me being Assistant Director at UTA, I was a Residence director here. So to get this job, I was an internal candidate for this position. But even before I got this job and went through the process of being an internal candidate, I had applied a year and a half before that, for another assistant director position that was open in my office. And I did spoiler I didn't get it. So I went through two processes of exactly the same. So I can totally relate to these feelings that you are having of the anxiousness of how to deal with interviewing of people that you know, and you work with day to day, and what's it going to be like, if you don't get it? I think a couple things that I would say. One is, in my experience, I have no regrets about applying, you know that first time even though I didn't get it, and that I think people are going to be a lot more supportive than you may think in your head that it is I think you think through things too much, you think about what that's going to be like, and it's more on you than it is on them. So I know when I interviewed and I made it to the final round. And when I didn't get it, I was like going to work is going to be the worst possible thing in the whole world. And then I got there. And maybe it was awkward for like the first day. But I think that's because I thought that it was awkward and not because the other people thought that it was awkward. And I think I learned a lot through that experience. And people were really supportive. My friends that I worked along with were encouraging of me as they interviewed me and those processes. And then when I went through the second time, it helped me to have a better grasp on that. And obviously, very happy that I did that as I got the new position. But I think it provides you different unique perspectives as well. You learn a lot through that process. And I think for you, if you have three years of experience and you know that you are good at your job, I think that it's worth it to put yourself out there to take the risk to challenge yourself to that and that it's only going to be as awkward as you think it is. But even more so people want you to succeed and your office and they care about your well being so I know there was also mentioned of what about that person that gets it that if they get it and I don't. Again, they may not know that you interviewed it Say you're not another internal person, they may not be aware of that. And I think, again, it's all about how your perspective of going into it. And I think if you go in saying, I am going to put it all out there and know that at the end of the day, I did what I could, that that's what's most important. And then if you don't get it, talk to your supervisor, I know, I talked with our director of our office and was like, Can you provide me some feedback? What can I do this is what I really hope to get to in the future. And, and you know, she, she shared with me, you know, you were great, it was nothing specific for you, the the other person had a little bit more experienced than you. And that's kind of where I fell. And then, you know, I waited a year and a half, and I applied again, and I got it and not saying that, that's everybody's story. But I think at the end of the day, you need to be able to put yourself out there. And it's, it's hard. And it's not always easy if you don't get it, but the reward is always worth it. And I think people will be more encouraging than you think that they will.
Jasmine Jennings:I echo everything Sara has said thus far, I would say if you meet the qualification, the minimum qualifications, you should shoot your shot. If you feel that you have all the experience and could do well in the position as you were with any position, you should definitely put yourself out there. And if you don't get the position, at least you have the experience. And that will prepare you not only for maybe another opening within your department, but maybe for another institution, you've had that practice, you know that experience like and you will be more prepared for the next time you interview. So I'd say shoot your shot. And then afterwards, say if you don't get the position, seek feedback, if there is feedback to be provided to you. But also to you know, you may want to be open and share with your close friends or your close colleagues, like, Hey, I went through the process, I didn't make it, I would love some support while I'm experiencing or explore my emotions, you know, letting people know that you may feel discouraged if you do feel discouraged. Or you know, if you just want to spend some time with some people after going through the process just to help you cope. But just to help you kind of work through what you're feeling. I think that is also healthy. That is also okay. But at the minimum shoot your shot, shoot your shot, shoot your shot.
J.C. Stoner:Yeah, strong cosign to shooting your shot. Because by not applying, you never know. And if you're still on the fence, and you don't know, maybe I want to do it, maybe I don't... still apply, because you can always withdraw later. But once that application closes, you're done. And like there's there's no chance unless it gets reopened. And I remember, I sat on the fence for a job that I was really interested in. And it wasn't an internal job. But it was five o'clock on a day I turned it in at like six o'clock that day. And a feedback I got when I followed up with it was like you missed the deadline. I was like it's the same day. But you can always pull out later, but you can't insert it later. And so yeah, strong cosign to that Jasmine, I love that shoot your shot. I think about the awkwardness and believe it or not as awkward as you may feel or project you're going to feel when interviewing them having interviewed internal candidates before it is incredibly awkward on the other side of the table as well. And when I've shared that with people as internal candidates who like if we're even going to be interviewing within my own departments like it's going to be really awkward for us. So hopefully that kind of manages expectations a little bit that you're not the only one that's going to kind of feel that way. So don't spend down we we all talked on your all's episode about everything he's like, don't spend down that rabbit hole, the awkward is only because of you. It is because of the other people in the room are also feeling a little bit of that. It may be different degrees, some may be more the most will probably be a little bit less, but it is a little bit awkward. As for advice, I would just say, crush it until it posts and just deliver constantly deliver. I think there's an exciting thing about being an internal candidate is you get to present yourself in a particular way to your departments like I'm pretty great. And here's all the reasons why. And like good assessment data, it should make it really easy to say yes. Or really difficult to say no. And I think that's kind of a position of like, I want you as my leadership of this department to see what I've been doing and in that way. And I think that's kind of kind of exciting. But one thing I would also add about internals is like take advantage of what you've got to offer. Kent Sampson in episode one talked about being an internal candidate we joke the benefit of being an internal candidate is everybody knows you. Well, the challenge also is well everybody knows you. But there are ways that internals have an advantage because like, I've got a ton of great stories I would love to share in interviews, but they require 45 minutes of backstory, because of either campus politics, that program is too complicated like it takes forever to lead into. But you don't have to go into all those details if you get an interview because everybody knows about it. So you can kind of surface over a lot of those and really get some good examples, because everybody in the room already knows them. And so then you can offer your perspective. And I think if you end up not getting the job, guess what, there is a lot of power and showing up to work the next day and moving ahead. And I think that's an impressive behavior. And I've been an internal, not a department on internal but either a division or a university, internal candidate, with people I've known very well. And, you know, you get the call, you don't get the job, you go home, had my little pity party. And I guess what I did, I went to work the next day. And I think there's a lot of power in showing up when even if you're like, upset on the inside of just like, I can still do my job. And I think there's some some value in that. Sara, did you ever find out if the person who got the job the first time around knew that you were in the pool?
Sara Frick:I actually have no idea. I need to ask. So maybe that will be my assignment is to ask her as we are now colleagues.
J.C. Stoner:Yeah, report back to us on that.
Sara Frick:Yeah, I'll let y'all know.
J.C. Stoner:Yeah. And all of our listeners, you know. Any closing thoughts for Internalized Candidate?
Sara Frick:I think just don't be don't overthink it. We talked in our our episode. And I think, you know, you being an internal candidate, the really positive thing is that they know your work ethic, if you really are good at your job, and you know, you're qualified, that that speaks volumes to you as a candidate. So go in there have confidence, and show that you can do the job.
Jasmine Jennings:I would say per our overthinking book, when our author talks about resilience, resilience is is when you get back up again. And so once you go through this process, and if you don't get the position, like both J.C. and Sarah have said, you know it, it means a lot when you come back to work and you show up still ready to do your job.
J.C. Stoner:Definitely. And speaking of overthinking like, I wouldn't fixate too much on the"Do I have three years of experience if I'm close. Different places count it different ways. And you're you're in a position where you can actually ask that question if you wanted, to be like, like some places I've been have counted grads, like a full year of grad school accounts as half a year as full time work or something like that, or, you know, but still apply. And if you get cut, you get cut early on, because you don't have the experience and nobody has to know and it's that makes it a little bit easier. But you also have the position where you can kind of ask about those things. Our next question is being fielded by the guests of Episode
010:Monique Berkeley, a Residence Director at the University of Texas at Arlington and Maggie Guzman, the Assistant Director for Risk Management at Texas A&M University. Our
listener writes:J.C., so I screwed up. There was this big program in our in our department and I had the responsibility of confirming participation details with some of our campus partners. I completely forgot to do it, which was revealed in one of our regular meetings with our campus partners, and they were shocked to know that they had some responsibilities they knew nothing about. I was so embarrassed and mortified that I just froze and my supervisor looked at me, he must have known that I didn't do what I said I was going to do by the deer in the headlights look I probably had. He quickly interjected and said he was extremely sorry that he had neglected to reach out to confirm details and would work individually with them after the meeting to catch them up and discuss anything he could do to help them get caught up. So basically, my supervisor took the fall for my mistake in a very public way. He shouldn't have had to do this, but he did. And now I don't know what to do about it. Do I say anything to my supervisor? Do I go to those campus partners and tell them it was my mistake? Why would he take the blame for my mistake? Sincerely, Blame Game Benefactor.
Maggie Guzman:Wow.
J.C. Stoner:It's quite the story.
Maggie Guzman:Yeah, that's a heck of a supervisor right there.
Monique Burkley:Shout to the supervisor or style shout out to the supervisor. Yeah.
J.C. Stoner:Let's address the last question. First is why would a supervisor take the blame in that capacity?
Maggie Guzman:So my first thought was okay, if this was me, what would motivate me to do that? Right? Perhaps the supervisor felt like they failed in following up with the employee to make sure the employee was staying on top of the communication with the partners. That's my first thought. So maybe the supervisor thought oh, I'm partly to blame
here because I didn't ask J.C.:"Hey, Did you confirm with all of the campus partners?", that's that's kind of my first inclination.
Monique Burkley:I would agree with that. Because like, as a supervisor, that's, that's who you're responsible for, you're responsible for their actions and guiding them and making sure that they're meeting their requirements don't necessarily do the work for them. But you're that accountability piece. So similar to what Maggie was saying, like, I feel like the supervisor felt some part of to blame on not following up and making sure that those things were done. But as well as I could have just simply been trying to shield their supervisee. Maybe they understood where they were coming from, they knew that they could take the, you know, the heat more so than the supervisee. So I just think they were being a great supervisor, first and foremost, just kind of shielding and protecting their, you know, very important employee.
J.C. Stoner:Yeah, I agree, Monique, I think there's from a capital lens, sometimes there's more value in like, the boots on the ground. And like, you know, say it was a Hall Director, sometimes there's more value in that person having a strong relationship than the supervisor because of the interactions or the day to day or, like you said, the supervisor has a little more clout that they can sacrifice a little bit of that capital to keep the supervisee in a position of competence with the partners.
Maggie Guzman:I would also say I think that if I mean, I don't know that this did they say they were a new, a new employee? Anyway, I'm just kind of assuming that this person is probably a new employee just starting their career. This could be one of those, like, make it or break it reputational moments for that employee, right? And so maybe the supervisor recognizes that and doesn't want this one. You know shortcoming to have that kind of lasting impact on who the employee is as a professional on that campus, and is willing to fall on that sword for them.
J.C. Stoner:Well, and I think the make It or break, it might, in my opinion, might be a little dramatic, but also in the sense of like, the personality of that person could be a thing of like, is this going to set them like, oh, my gosh, I just, I'm gonna go cry in my office for the next three weeks based on this one moment, or, you know, there could be a little bit of cover where it's going to be more impactful to take the blame. Alright, now we're going to follow up and more developmental setting, very private setting. So that very well could be the case. Okay, so what do we do? What is this person? What does he do about it? Does he say anything to his supervisor?
Monique Burkley:I will say most definitely, that's my first after the meeting is over. So my first thing to do is just go to my supervisor, thank them for their sacrifice. But also just see what we can do from here, like, come up with an action plan. Like from this point on, I'm involved, whether that is sending reminders, helping and sitting in on those meetings, maybe taking some task away from the campus partners. From that point on, I'm in overdrive, trying to see what I can do to rectify a situation. But I think definitely going to your supervisor, and just acknowledging like, no excuses, just be like, Hey, I dropped the ball on these, it slipped my mind, there's no particular reason it just happened. And then seeing not doing too much on the mistake, but what we can do to make whatever partnership we have an event coming up successful. So just that ownership piece, and just acknowledging that you messed up and see what you can do from there.
Maggie Guzman:Yeah, absolutely. As a supervisor, I would way way, way rather have one of my employees come in, acknowledge, hey, here's the mistake, I'm going to own it. Because I know that that person is probably punishing themselves, way more than anything I could do or say, right, it's, you know, I'm sure that they're feeling terrible about it, they're going to think about it, it's going to live with them for a really long time. And so, I agree that just owning it, acknowledging it definitely is like you need to do that. And honestly, I would also say if that person feels like they have a good relationship with their supervisor, ask the supervisor"explain to me why you did that." Like I think developmentally learning, kind of why our supervisors make the decisions they make. That can be a huge learning moment for that employee. You know, so if that reasons, not obvious, just ask the supervisor, hey, I really appreciate that. I don't understand why you did it. So can you kind of give me a little bit of insight into what you were thinking and what your reason was? That can, you know, that can really teach that employee something about supervision and being a good supervisor.
J.C. Stoner:I think that's a great thing. The more questions we can ask that help, you know, we are who we are based on adapting from supervisors, you know, things we want to emulate things we want to avoid doing and now we are who we are. And I think anytime you can get a little bit of insight because you never know if you reflect enough You probably have probably you probably have done the same thing for somebody that reports to you, maybe not in as big of a scale or in a grand like a quite so public, but hopefully everybody's covered for it. Because ultimately, as supervisors, like, it's all your fault that, like anything that happens is your fault, whether that's through, you know, didn't provide good enough training, good enough expectations, good enough follow up, good enough support, like there's any number of reasons. But, you know, if you got a supervisor that says, Yeah, you screwed up, but it's my fault. Ask them about that. Process that with them, because that's a, in my opinion, a good trait to have and to emulate if you can.
Maggie Guzman:yeah, absolutely. I think too, as a supervisor, you know, what I mean? I would be willing to bet that employee is going to be loyal to that supervisor until the end. You know, and I would be willing to bet you to that mistake will never be repeated again. You know, I think any good employee, your number one priority should be making your boss's job easier, or at least staying off the radar, not causing problems, right?
J.C. Stoner:Strong cosign.
Maggie Guzman:you know, so acknowledging, okay, I made this mistake, I'm not going to do it again. And I appreciate that you, you know, kind of took one for the team here. You know, I think that that goes a really long way in gaining the supervisor, loyalty and respect, but also ensuring that the employee doesn't make the same mistake again.
Monique Burkley:it's something I would just add for the, the supervisee. To do. So from that point on, I feel like it's a little bit of gaining your supervisors trust back like so including them on and things that you typically wouldn't have, like, see seeing them on emails to the campus partners and other departments just to kind of build that trust back up, because I feel like, naturally, that is a little bit was lost. So just knowing that you might have to put in extra work and go the extra mile, just to mend that relationship as well. Because it's not just a one sided relationship. So just kind of being sure that you're, you know, taking accountability and willing to do the work to get back in, you know, good graces.
J.C. Stoner:So should this person go to the campus partners and admit to them that it was their mistake and not their boss's and apologize for that?
Monique Burkley:I would say no, I don't know. I just said, If this seems like a very, like sacrificial lamb move, like I think is not necessary. I think at that point, the work wasn't done. The campus partners is, I mean, ideally, that you might, they're going to place it on a department. Regardless, I think it's a reflection of the department. So from that point on, I just feel like you should spend more time putting that work in to correct the mistake, then, I don't know if that makes you feel a little bit better about something, but it really does nothing for the issue. So I wouldn't say go to the campus partner, because it just does nothing.
Maggie Guzman:I would agree with that. And I would also add that it may even further damage, the reputation or the relationship between the supervisor and the partner, because then it looks like the supervisor lied about it. Right? Like, even though it's a good and valiant thing to do, like take responsibility and shield the employee. The fact of the matter is, it's not really what happens. So it could cause further harm, I think and kind of undermine, probably what the supervisor was trying to do by taking responsibility for it in the first place.
J.C. Stoner:Well, and I think that's going back to the conversation about have a dialogue with your supervisor, like, there's a level of guilt when someone's take responsibility for one of our errors or whatever, like, I totally get and respect that. But like, express that, and I'd like to do this, and then there will be more information given about. No, you really don't need to do that. And you shouldn't and here's why. And I agree with both of you on what you said is like, I certainly wouldn't do it without telling your boss first. Because that could be a disaster. But, you could have a good conversation with your supervisor about it. And then they're like, Okay, if you really feel like you need to do this, you feel some sort of like obligation or responsibility. Let me set that up and kind of facilitate it. Because you never know, the campus partners could also be like, this is a developmental opportunity.
Maggie Guzman:Yeah, yeah. Yes. Talking to the supervisor first. Yeah. 100% agree with that.
J.C. Stoner:All right. So to the person who wrote in, let us know how it turns out. Our final question is being fielded by Apefa Cooper from Episode 010. Our listener writes: J.C., We have been interviewing candidates for full time positions, and many candidates have been asking us how our department supports Professionals of Color. Often, I'm the only Professional of Color on the interview team. And when that question gets asked, everyone freezes and looks to me to answer, like, I'm the only one who can answer that question. What do you suggest I do in the situation? And while I feel my department has been pretty supportive overall, what if I didn't? Thanks for the advice. Love the show.
So, Apefa:What do you think about this question?
Apefa Cooper:I think that's a very interesting question. And surprisingly, and maybe not surprising. It actually did happen to me once and and one thing I would say in reflecting on that I'm not sure if I played it out, or did exactly what I'm about to share. But because it happened so many times, there were times where I haven't blurted out, right? But one thing to think about is, maybe pausing. If people are pausing during your with them, right. If they're pausing and looking to you, then enjoy the awkwardness of the pause and giving someone else the opportunity to share, and then no one shares right, then, then maybe that is a question that at the end of the interview, you can, if you're brave enough, right, and you have a relationship, bringing it up to the panel, right and saying, I noticed that there was this awkward pause when that question was asked, and is there something that we want to talk about as a group, right? And so that's one that's a high high level when it comes to if you're brave enough to act to, to get to that point. Now, the second one is, you know, I think one of the ways that and then may have been a time that I did this, but the one of the things that I did was turning it back to my my colleagues and saying, you know, I have something to share, but I want to hear what my colleagues have to say. Right? And there was no malintent was just saying that those know, you're not trying to call them out, but it is maybe inviting them into that conversation and turning their back on them and saying, you know, like, I know that I have my own experiences. However, I would love to hear what my colleagues have to say first, and then I will share. And if and if you don't have anything, anything to say, where you don't feel like your department is supportive? I do think there is, and there is a word for this when it comes to the cabinet level, the level of being professional and mature when it comes to an interview process, right. And so if this isn't your interview, another full time professional, maybe pouring it all out there during that interview time may not be the best time. And so one thing I encourage you to do is going in talking to your supervisor, here are here are the things that are happening within our department, here are the ways that I don't feel supported. And this is what these are my experiences based on that question. And I think you'll be interested in to hear what your response would have been, right? If you had been completely on s3, or if you had shared in that moment. And so, you know, that's, that's one way that I will I will approach that. If I was, you know, if I ever find myself in that situation, I
think, one:reading the room, knowing who my other colleagues are, am I well, I want to also enjoy the awkward silence and waiting to see what they have to say. And the candidate is like, Okay, well, next question. And we all move on, right, and then addressing the elephant in the room afterwards. And secondly, you know, inviting them into the conversation, and when to actually think through that right? And then also, if your department is not supportive, finding somebody that you do trust could be in line with your supervisors and above or, or somebody you do trust that you can share that with and to start that conversation. And now there are other I could go on and on about some other layers right with this. And so you see if you want to invite me back for a podcast just to talk about this, I will come back but I just this and I'll leave you with three, three different different approaches to this.
J.C. Stoner:I'm gonna take you up on that offer. But I will also fully admit that I'm basically doing the same thing to you now that this person who wrote in was talking about is like asking you to speak on behalf of this situation. But I think about it from my perspective. It's like some of these things I think the awkwardness pauses is like fantastic like a strategy of like, let everyone else revel in their own fragility for a few moments. Just to have that experience. And I think about because you and I had talked about this previously, a while, a long time ago, and I, I don't know for sure, because again, is a white man who struggles with his own white fragility, as much as the next one. Like, I'd like to believe in that moment, if I was like, in a position of authority, that, and I noticed this was happening, I would speak up and say, here's what I believe our department has done to help support Professionals of Color, and strategies we've employed, and then defer to anyone else in the room that, I hope that's what we've provided that environment. And if we haven't, I'm open to more feedback. And if there was something particular someone needs, I hope that we've instilled an environment that they can vocalize that and share that. Again, I'd like to believe that's why I do it. But it's like, it's crazy. Because let's say, you should see this coming a mile away. Like, especially after the murder of George Floyd, it's like, of course, every candidate, or every Professional of Color of the candidate is going to be asking this, and yet nobody was prepared for it.
Apefa Cooper:And I will say this, and I'll give you an insider scoop, most of the time, J.C., when that other Professional of Color at the candidate is alone in the room with another they asked this, just tell me, tell me, tell me the real and, and it happens. And I you know, and again, maybe it's just me, but I promise it happens more often than you think. Right? When they're just Yeah, and they'll come find you, you know. And so I think it would definitely be an interesting topic to explore of what it's like to have going into a campus even after you've gotten that job interview and looking for other professionals of color, just so you can feel like okay, you're not alone in this right. And maybe I'm, you know, I'm alone in this thought, or maybe not, right? But I will say that it, it's definitely a topic and a big, big topic within the Professionals of Color is finding, finding your people, right? And so, again, I know this is not for everybody, and no, not all Professionals of Color would think this way. And so I'm wanting to clear that. But I will say that more nighttime night, nine out of 10 times, people are coming back, or they're emailing separately and saying, Hey, like I connected with you, can you tell me really what it's like there?
J.C. Stoner:Well, and I'd love your answer about, or your suggestion of like, in a wrap up interview, like that's a perfectly legitimate question to ask. It's like, Hey, we're closing out the day, I had this observation and just wanted to whoever is coordinating the interview, again, I would only imagine it would be an incredibly challenging conversation to have. And I can't put myself in those shoes. But I think about like, sometimes the questions we ask are going to reveal more about culture than any other observations. And how a person in a position of power either rises to the occasion in that moment and satisfies whatever concerns we're having, or completely stumbles over, it is going to be more revealing about the culture, then whatever words are actually said.
Apefa Cooper:Yeah, and I will say this, I think also sometimes just being vulnerable, and being honest about, hey, we're working through it, right. Like, we don't have it figured out. And sometimes that's all, that's all that I would want to hear. Right. It's like, and we're, you know, we're, we're brand new staff, or we're building our team, and you happen to be the only Professional of Color, however, know that we're working through it, and we have some things to work on. I will take that answer over, you know, yeah, we will support you, you know, if you need any. No, I want you to give me the real answer. I want to hear that.
J.C. Stoner:Yeah. And I think that's, I love that. And I think it's important, again, from a planning standpoint, like you should see this coming a mile away. And it's like, yeah, it's gonna be a super awkward conversation. I imagine to be like, Okay, everyone on staff that's gonna be interviewing people, like, we need to be prepared for this. We want people to be honest and candid. And that's also a self reflection moment for a department. If we don't know what people are going to say in that question, you probably aren't doing it well enough to begin with. And if you have concerns like, ignoring it, it's not going to go away. Like it's still gonna be happening, whether it actually happens in the interview or on the side, like you were saying, the department can be doing more to plan ahead for that.
Apefa Cooper:Right, right. Yeah.
J.C. Stoner:And that's it. Thanks to the four people who wrote in. Some of these have been sitting in the inbox for a while. So while the answers may not have actually helped you, hopefully they've helped others. Write in with any questions you might have. The link is in the show notes. And a big thanks to everyone who listened to this year. I've got a couple of special episodes cooked up waiting to be recorded. So I'm excited for the upcoming year. But I do need your help. If you want to talk about anything, anything at all, write me an email. We don't even really need a topic. Just get some of your favorite colleagues together who want to talk shop and I guarantee we'll have some fun. And with that, I say to you, good day.