Have you ever found yourself lost in the labyrinth of your deepest desires, questioning why certain fantasies hold such power over you? Today, I had the pleasure of sitting with Artemisia Devine, a somatic sexologist and professional dominatrix, whose insights into the enigmatic realm of sexual fantasies are nothing short of enlightening. Together, we peered into the looking glass, exploring the intricate narratives that shape our erotic psyche and the paradox of longing for scenarios in the shadows of our minds that we wouldn't dare entertain in daylight.
Artemisia and I took a daring journey through the emotional minefield of cuckolding fantasies. The dance of excitement intertwined with the threat of jealousy was laid bare, unraveling how such fantasies, when navigated with care, can unexpectedly fortify the bonds between partners. We also touched upon the transformative potential of erotic play, pondering how it can catapult us into altered states of consciousness, where the lines between fear and pleasure blur into an intoxicating cocktail of intimacy.
Near the end of our discussion, Artemisia offered a tantalizing preview of her upcoming book and a lesson from the exclusive world of elite erotic arts. This conversation was more than just a talk; it was an invitation to step beyond the edge of our comfort zones, to understand the stories woven into our desires, and to embrace the full spectrum of our sexual fantasies with open arms and an open heart. So come along, take my hand, and let us guide you through this intricate tapestry of human longing and the undeniable power it holds over our most visceral experiences.
Have you ever found yourself lost in the labyrinth of your deepest desires, questioning why certain fantasies hold such power over you? Today, I had the pleasure of sitting with Artemisia Devine, a somatic sexologist and professional dominatrix, whose insights into the enigmatic realm of sexual fantasies are nothing short of enlightening. Together, we peered into the looking glass, exploring the intricate narratives that shape our erotic psyche and the paradox of longing for scenarios in the shadows of our minds that we wouldn't dare entertain in daylight.
Artemisia and I took a daring journey through the emotional minefield of cuckolding fantasies. The dance of excitement intertwined with the threat of jealousy was laid bare, unraveling how such fantasies, when navigated with care, can unexpectedly fortify the bonds between partners. We also touched upon the transformative potential of erotic play, pondering how it can catapult us into altered states of consciousness, where the lines between fear and pleasure blur into an intoxicating cocktail of intimacy.
Near the end of our discussion, Artemisia offered a tantalizing preview of her upcoming book and a lesson from the exclusive world of elite erotic arts. This conversation was more than just a talk; it was an invitation to step beyond the edge of our comfort zones, to understand the stories woven into our desires, and to embrace the full spectrum of our sexual fantasies with open arms and an open heart. So come along, take my hand, and let us guide you through this intricate tapestry of human longing and the undeniable power it holds over our most visceral experiences.
Welcome to the Straight From the Sources Mouth podcast. Frank talk about sex and dating. Hello everyone, tamara here, welcome to the show. Today's guest is Artemisia Devine. We'll be talking about the value of sexual fantasies. If you like this episode, be sure to tell your friends about it and rate it as well. Thanks for joining me, artemisia.
Speaker 2:
Thanks so much for having me. I'm really looking forward to a juicy conversation with you.
Speaker 1:
Yes, yeah, I think this is a great topic. I obviously talk about sex and dating, but the sex episodes are way more popular, so let's jump right into it. Like I know, you talked about the value of sexual fantasies, like what led you to see the value in them and how you got started.
Speaker 2:
When I first started having sexual fantasies, I was scared of them. I was afraid of them. They seemed to be all about being treated in exactly the opposite way than I wanted to be treated in real life, and that is very confusing. And then so I wanted to make sense of it. When I'm afraid of something, I'm the kind of person who goes and pokes it with a stick to go and find out how it works right. So I ended up spending my whole life actually trying to understand what turns us on Going deep into the erotic psyche. You know that includes. You know how I applied my anthropology degree, exploring different ways of looking at sexuality, became a somatic sexologist. I just read everything I could. We worked in a sex shop for women and even invited my grandma along to the sex shop. But then the most valuable time and the deepest learning was actually when I spent 12 years being a full-time sex worker in a professional dominatrix, when I was literally paid to become somebody else's sexual fantasy for them. So I had to put my full attention on understanding what it is that they're trying to achieve out of this fantasy.
Speaker 2:
What is this fantasy? Why do we have them? Like? They seem so bizarre. What are they for? And most therapy models at the moment, because you know anything to do with the mind. We turn to therapists. We think therapists know the answer to sex, and they really don't. They have no education around it, very limited understanding around it, and the frameworks that are offered for therapists when they go on your learning university are either reduce everything to your childhood, unfinished business yeah, trauma. Or, yes, we know sexual fantasies are not trauma. They're just perfectly healthy and normal and everyone has them, but we don't have any idea what to do with them. We can't give you any advice on that. Just don't feel ashamed about them.
Speaker 1:
That's it. Yeah, Now that you say that, yeah, people don't talk about this and like people, they don't. People like we'll talk about in like tooth or dare or something like that, like with your fantasy, but no one knows, like like you're saying the ins and outs of it or why, so yeah, so I'm very curious to hear what you found.
Speaker 2:
Yeah Well, when you meet a complete stranger who's just come through your door and you're expected to play with them sexually expected, I consented, it's fully consensual adults here. But each person was completely different. And yet each one of them came in with a meaning making script running in the back of their mind of what they thought sex was, what they thought was sexy, what was turned on, and they started interacting from that place, as though that's what sex is. And that's actually now that I look back on it.
Speaker 2:
All my one night stands and casual sex explorations, and even in my relationship, sex was also operating on that same way, whereas whoever was leading the sex just operated from the meaning making story that was happening for them. What was exciting them? And they were trying to give a beautiful gift that if you love beautiful touch, then you're likely to try and pleasure somebody else with beautiful touch. If you like dirty talk, you're likely to try and turn someone else on with dirty talk. But what I discovered very quickly is that nobody's meaning making story was the same. Everybody's was unique to them. Everybody was different. You know, literally had sexual encounters with thousands of people and they're all different. You start to get curious about what's going on here? What does turn us on, and how are we going to both mutually enjoy this time together when our meaning making story, our turn on, is inherently different? Right, how are we going to go about that?
Speaker 1:
Yeah, I was going to ask like how does that work? And then also, how do you even know? I guess you just is it talking about it or you're experiencing it, I guess, and then, because you've done it enough, you've discovered it. But how does like a couple figure that out? Or you can talk about what you found in general and then go to a couple.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, I think probably explaining what it is is going to be important before you can start looking for it and how to share it with somebody else. But what I discovered to cut a long story short is that our sexual fantasies are brilliant at telling, revealing how our own psyche works to each other and what they are. Their stories made up by our own mind and who knows us better than our own mind? Our mind knows us. Their symbolic stories made up to help us overcome our natural resistance and fear of vulnerability so that we can actually just let go into primal pleasure and connection Right. So they have to include the fear of vulnerability in the fantasy and the way to resolve that fear in the fantasy. And as soon as I started recognizing that with my clients, I had the key to unraveling and creating a tailored experience for each one. And then I could also invite them in to connect with myself or their own lovers in a different way as well. But that's key.
Speaker 2:
It's a story. It's not necessarily your trauma at all. It's our natural resistance to vulnerability. We all have it. But to have the best sex, the best sex, you have to temporarily lose your sense of self. You have to dance like nobody's watching. You have to let go, and that is inherently vulnerable.
Speaker 1:
Yeah, and hard for a lot of people, right, yeah, because I was thinking like the ones I generally like are like the humiliation submissive types, so I guess that's like my psyche is like I can't do it unless you make me kind of thing, or I was guessing like I don't know. Beautiful, just hear you say that Awesome insight.
Speaker 2:
Awesome, how clever is your mind? That's a natural, that's an absolute natural way. Of course we're going to be vulnerable One of our fears of being vulnerable to our blessed, blessed little egos. You know how egos protect and create our sense of self and defend them vigilantly, and they're terrified of losing us, losing face, losing social status, losing us, any threats to our self worth, any threats to our self identity. This is all natural, normal.
Speaker 2:
Healthy Doesn't mean you've got trauma. Healthy resistance to letting go, and yet it's in the way if you want to get to the kind of sex that you yearn for most. So there's part of your own mind is in conflict with another part of your own mind. Think of them as two different organs of the psyche, like the lungs trying to do the lungs job, the hearts trying to do the hearts job. They don't, and they've got different jobs. There's different organs of the psyche. They're trying to ones trying to keep you safe from any vulnerability, and the other one is going yeah, got to let those guards down If you're going to come into this wonderful place. That's, that's just in the flow, state of pleasure and play and even even profound erotic states of consciousness that can be considered even spiritual, they're so powerful. But your one is great, a right accumulation, brilliant. Who they go does not fear that they're going to be humiliated or rejected. If they're vulnerable, who's doesn't Right?
Speaker 1:
Who's?
Speaker 2:
doesn't.
Speaker 1:
And you're saying like that's, that's how you enjoy pleasure more. But how does it work, like if you indulge them? Is that like the more you do it? Or like, say more about that. I'm assuming that's, we're going to go with it, ish.
Speaker 2:
Okay. So if we do do more of like, I trust what I, what I did is I I learned to really trust my clients fantasies. They'd come in and they'd sit down in my play space, which was called the divinery they named it that the client's stick because they were dividing the erotic in there, you know, like water dividing and sit down on my red velvet couch and I'd asked them all about their peak experiences from the past and their sexual fantasies and I'd be noticing things that they didn't realize they were giving away, so that I could actually create because I'm looking at it now through the state, through the lens of stories going oh, that's a narrative, they've encountered these particular resistances and these are the way the story overcame it. I can, I can use that same mechanism in ways that they won't necessarily expect and create the same effect in our real life place. I wasn't trying to mimic what was in their minds. I wasn't trying to have perky aboobs and I have. I wasn't trying to be prettier than I was. I wasn't trying to just live out exactly what was in their minds.
Speaker 2:
I, instead, I was listening to it as a narrative and and when you and a writer learns how to write. They learn about theme, they learn about character, they learn about how to move a story forward, what the the the obstacles are that need to be included and how to overcome them. So there is no story without an obstacle to be overcome. You don't start off a story with everything being happy and and it just continues being everything happy and then that's the end. You start off being happy, something goes wrong, you start to overcome some challenge of some sort and then you get a climax.
Speaker 1:
Ha ha.
Speaker 2:
And then a really satisfying experience and a new normal. So the stories are transformational. Sexual fantasies are just stories. They transform your state of consciousness from your everyday being to this other place inside of yourself where you think differently, you feel differently, your nerve endings respond differently, everything's in your new end. Suddenly, that hot dog looks sexy. It's changed your state of consciousness, it's changed you. But in order to change you, it had to overcome your resistance so that you could let go. So an example is Well, let's just imagine that you are in your everyday state of consciousness, you're inside the castle walls, and that's castle wall is the sense of self, keeping your identity, status, self worth together, like you're all protected but you can't connect.
Speaker 2:
When your eye focused, you're trying to move to we focused. When you move from eye to we, sex is the urge to merge after all, right. So so you imagine you're trying to leave the castle walls to connect and you're on the bridge and there's three guards standing in the way and each guard one guard is the guard of self worth, one guard is the guard of self identity and the other guard is the social status and each of those guards are afraid that you're going to get hurt if you go beyond. So they try to stop you from going out. They're trying to protect you, but this voice on the other side saying, yes, but over here is an open field where you can connect and feel, really just merge with everything. You can connect with another person, you can feel more connected with life as this vibrant, amazing place that you can visit over here and then go back to your castle afterwards.
Speaker 2:
And so what the sexual fantasy does is it tells the story that appeases each one of those three guards includes the poison, the fear of those guards and the way to resolve it, the antidote. And there's your alchemical transformation that allows you to pass and temporarily change statuses. So for an example, shall we use let's use a cuckolding example. Do you know about cuckolding?
Speaker 1:
Yeah, I've had a few episodes about that.
Speaker 2:
Have you Okay.
Speaker 1:
Female lead relationships is in the context we had it.
Speaker 2:
Okay, okay, wonderful. So let's just use this as. Let's imagine that this is a heterosexual male fantasy and it is about he's really turned on by his wife or committed partner, fucking other people, being with other people. Can I swear on this? Yeah, yeah, the sign Should have asked that before, shouldn't I? And it's super exciting. Lots and lots of people go, yeah, that's such a turn on. And then they try and live it out in real life and come back devastated and jealous and they don't know why. That's because they've included the poison but not the antidote, the thing that excited them, but they didn't also include the antidote.
Speaker 2:
So you have to notice what in the fantasy creates the alchemical reaction before you try and live it out. So one of these, one way that that can work out is that it's his fantasy that he is. He wants to be able to be good enough, man enough and have skill enough to please the other, his partner, and he actually really cares for his partners having pleasure. But while he's focusing on all of that, he's got performance anxiety and he can't let go into the flow. He's a double bind that is stuck in, like he genuinely cares, really wants pleasure for the other person, but can't let go. So the fantasy is saying okay, let's leave out your fear that you're not good enough, that you're not manly enough. Let's get in a ball someone who's got a bigger symbol of masculinity between his legs. Somebody is bigger about a better at whatever the supposed ideal masculinity is, and he and he Usually pounds her really hard, which is much more about the symbol of his virility rather than the actual physical pleasure of her. But it's as a symbolic story. It works beautifully right. So he's faced the fear that he's not good enough and that she's going to leave him For somebody else who is better, who is the real deal, who's got the thing that she needs to make her let go. And in fact, in so many of these fantasies if you look at the, at the porn or the erotica that's that's drawn or even written about it Her full attention is on him, the husband, as she's having sex with somebody else, just telling him about how amazing it is that you know this sensation is feeling for her, she's loving it, but she the end result that that he feared that she would leave her is not happening.
Speaker 2:
She's doing it to get a reaction out of him. Her pleasure is coming from getting a reaction out of him. You could cut the knife for the tension between the eye contact between the husband and the wife as she's having sex with somebody else. So, even though she's living out his egos, worst fear that he's not mad enough, that his self worth is not enough, that is not enough and he's not able to pleasure her. Actually, her needs are completely, a hundred percent, met and their connection is deepened. Their connection is solid. She's doing it like his that you look at the pictures of the ball. He's an interchangeable object. His face often isn't even in it. He's like, not a real person. The connection the relationship is is deeper. So the end result is the exact opposite to what his ego feared. And now he can let go into pleasure, he can surrender into pleasure and he doesn't have to worry about meeting her needs because they've already been met. Now he cannot give himself permission to just let go into the flow of pleasure.
Speaker 1:
And are most of the fantasies like actually doing them and or they, sometimes the thoughts of it or is it can be one or the other or both, or Like what are you referring to mostly in fantasies? Is the living them out actually, or like the idea of stuff, or they can't quit Stop talking.
Speaker 2:
So the most powerful things, as we know with any somatic theory is to bring them out of your head and into your body, into play Does not necessarily mean literally living it out, it just means not.
Speaker 2:
I mean, you can get off, get very hot and just lying there masturbating, thinking about a story, but what happens is if you bring the core, underlying symbols to life in that story through play, then you drop into a deeper state of erotic pleasure again.
Speaker 2:
So I might bring that to life without even having another person there, but I might use a verbal talk of somebody else being bigger, or use a bigger dildo, you know, or start playing with with the theme there, making sure that I include both the poison because you can't transform poison unless it's included and the antidote to get the other result. And the end result is actually deeper intimacy, deeper connection, deeper shared moment. And I would often get the response from clients going whoa, I didn't realize I could feel this way. This feels like I'm in a deep, but not because I'm not. What is this feeling I have now? Because when you really actually engage all three of those guards and appease all three of those guys, you start dropping into deeper states of consciousness than you've ever been in before and that's a really, really powerful thing to know, yeah.
Speaker 1:
I've heard people talking about these types of states. I'm not sure I've been vulnerable enough to get there myself, but yeah, no, I said it sounds amazing and yeah, yeah, what's? I guess what's a common, I don't know. I don't know where you want to go there. If you had somewhere you were going to go next, I don't even.
Speaker 2:
What you really do, what you just said. That is really true. You need safety and risk in order to access these places. Or too much safety and there's no excitement. Too much risk and you just shut down, you can't. You can't go there. It needs to be this art form of being able to find the right level of risk and safety.
Speaker 2:
But one of the most radical and most powerful and useful for your audience things to think about in this particular Theory is Suddenly we're free to realize that we're all turned on by different things and that's no longer a threat. Suddenly we realize of course my partner is not going to have the same turn on, says me. They have to have this turn on, the answer their particular ego fears and overcome them not my fears and how to overcome them all that doesn't mean that we're not about we're not matched. We are matched. We have to actually take the time to discover each other and understand each other's turn on so that we can take turns playing with them on purpose, bringing them out of our heads, and we're not just going to play with one person's theme for the rest of our relationship. We're going to take turns playing with both deliberately and understanding what. What are your poisons? What are your antidotes? How can we help you get the right level of risk and safety to be able to access this? These are the fuller potential of where we were, where we can go together, what we can share.
Speaker 2:
Suddenly, it's nowhere near as threatening when someone has a sexual fantasy of some celebrity that is so much more beautiful than me that that beauty is a symbol of something that I can actually access, and I did. I proved that as a sex worker over and over again. I'm people who can't actually physically see me. I am going to store, I'm ordinary, I have my own attractiveness, but I'm not anywhere near barbie doll and I worked as an older sex worker to buy the way. So, by the way, there's a big market in that. So if you think that you're getting too old to be hot, you are so wrong. You are so wrong. There is a middle aged and up. Women are hot as hell because we just are.
Speaker 2:
But anyway yeah, but the symbol of the beauty. I learned that if I understood their fantasy, if I understood the story, the narrative underlying their fantasy, the symbolism in it, I didn't have to compete with someone who is more beautiful than me, I, I I could meet the need, the actual, genuine need behind the story, symbolism that they weren't even conscious of, and they would be more, they would be deeply satisfied. That interstate said never even experienced before with the most beautiful person. And I get those comments over and over again about some people. Just they have no tact. That actually said to my face you know, you wouldn't be my first choice If I was just going to go by, looks on alone, I would have booked another sex worker.
Speaker 2:
But actually I'm going to like I'm a loyal client now, because I have never felt this in my life before. This is what is this? I heard you had skills, so I took a risk and I came along and you're doing something so much more than just getting me off, like what is this? And what I was doing was trusting their erotic psyche, trusting their turn ons, even though they seemed on the surface to be. You know, about things we don't want. We don't want to be real life humiliated, do we? That's horrible. We don't want to lose our status. We don't want to lose our specialness at all. But these stories solve those fears.
Speaker 1:
What are some examples of like the poison and the fears that like are more common or that you've worked with, if that's a question that makes sense in this Like I'm just trying to understand more like the antidote the poison like. What are some examples of each of those?
Speaker 2:
Sure. So if you are fantasizing about being used, that's a very common fantasy, right? Having somebody else use you what problem could you have solved? To be used Like, how is that going to help you get past your fear of vulnerability and to let go? Well, for a start, if you're used, you're 100% sure that they want to be there because they're 100% in there. Somebody who's using you is selfish. They're taking from you for their own pleasure. They're getting their needs met. So then you're 100% sure this is your subconscious dream, like logic, part of your brain that's primal is well, you want me, then I am worthy, self worth, self identity, haha. And now I can let go into the flow of being of another part of that self identity. Guard right there with that being used.
Speaker 2:
One is my identity is I'm a considerate person, I'm a kind person. I care about whether the other person is having fun during sex or not. I really do care about them. So if they are. But I can't focus on my sexual fantasy, my erotic narrative, and get me where I need to go if I my attention's on supporting them in theirs and their particular story. So I have to. I mean this double bind. Who do I focus on the fantasy of being used. Magically means because in the fantasy, when I'm used, they just magically want to touch me exactly the way I want to be touched. They do all the other things I just magically want them to do, but suddenly they're doing it for their pleasure. So I no longer have to care. Take them, I can just let go into the flow and surrender into the experience, and pure experiencing is magic. It's magic. Does that make sense to you?
Speaker 1:
Yeah, I think, yeah, I get it more. Like you know they want you. So you're like just release and like okay, like there's nothing to do here and like you said in your mind, all the stuff they want to do to you is everything you would like anyways.
Speaker 2:
Great. The goal of every sexual fantasy is to convince you that the other person just magically wants exactly what you want them to want, very convenient. And to convince you that you are wanted, you are desirable, and to convince you that it's safe to let go to surrender and let go into the, into the flow. So sexual fantasies do seem selfish, because they are, because they need to be, to get you to be able to focus on yourself.
Speaker 1:
On the example you gave with that client. Like I know you said you understood his story, but like can you say more about how you understood his story or how you applied his story, like to make it work so well for him? Or maybe another example.
Speaker 2:
So, instead of thinking about it in terms of, this is something in my childhood attachment theory that I have to go and fix in order to then be able to be worthy of a real relationship, real mature relationship. I don't do that with sex. I don't try and bring the rules of the outside world into our internal dream logic. That's inappropriate use of them and it ends up shaming our sexual fantasies. Instead, I look at them as a story. I look at them as simply a narrative that has moved us from one state of consciousness to another.
Speaker 2:
That cuckolding story is a story. It's a story. He starts off with complete connection and bonding with the partner. Safety container is established right there and she now needs to get her needs met by somebody else because he fears, as though he's not good enough. So he's facing that fear straight away. He had created a story around that fear being true, but in a way that made it safe. It brought in the risk and brought in the safety, and then it overcame that particular problem so that he could then have the end result, which is the exact opposite to what he feared it would be. The fear is that she will leave him because he's not good enough and that he will never be out of satisfy her. The end result is she's deeply satisfied and deeply connected to him. As a result of the story, it's changed everything, and so it's always a transformation story.
Speaker 2:
But when I'm also as a writer, you look at how things work. You look at where's the midpoint, where's the climax, how do you build tension? How do you? How do you? What's the theme? Who's? What's the right character to take on? What's the right body language?
Speaker 2:
So if I'm Listening to my clients fantasy while they're sitting on my red velvet couch and they tell me oh mistress, I'm really excited by Somebody cross dressing me, calling me a sissy slut and using a strap on with me, and then I I don't just project onto that my story of what that is I listen to what their story, what's the narrative? I start teasing out the questions. Okay, great, when she's standing there with the strap on, what is her body language? What is her attitude towards you? What is her power dynamic between you? That's happening right there, what is the character, what, what's the tension that's being built right there? And they don't know how to answer that question and they go I don't know.
Speaker 2:
So you say you help them become conscious of it. You ask them, you make three suggestions that are very different, so that you know at least one, if not all three, are going to be wildly wrong. And it is in contrast of having something wrong that people know it's not like that, it's like this. So you go, so you say okay, is she standing there really nurturing, like she's going to, you know, coax you through this vulnerable moment?
Speaker 2:
She's been quite like a dental nurse, you know, getting you to open up to something that's good for you, for your own good. Or is she a strict mistress, he's like completely contemptuous of your fear and she's just going to push you through that barrier and she's she's Incomplete control and you've got no say. Or is she somebody who's more like the schoolgirl bully who's having a great time turning you into a sissy and teasing you about how much, how excited you're getting an erection from, from being made into a girly, girly thing and bringing in humiliation or shame or or embarrassment into it. And you know that if somebody's not into an embarrassment, they're immediately going to go. No, it's not like that, it's like this. As soon as you know what it isn't, you become aware of what it is, but until then you can't even, you're not even aware of it, you're just thinking that's just how it is. What do you mean, lady? I don't know.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, that's a trick you can use and take away immediately when you start asking about your other fantasies what's the body language, what's the attitude, what's the dynamic? And then, even though they've told me that and I don't try and become their fantasies for them and I tell them that I'm not going to try and become your fantasy for you, I'm going to be a playmate here doing Getting a reaction out of you that I want to get out of you, and I would then take this play and at the end use these things that they've told me as tools to get the response I want at the time, I want from them. And that meant that this became a genuine. It's not me acting, it's me engaging, going into the flow, state of genuine joy of play and getting a genuine power exchange between us and a genuine tension of eroticism between us and bringing it all to life. Does that help a little bit?
Speaker 1:
Yeah, is it more like role playing kind of? I mean, you're saying you're not acting, but it's more engaging. But because I've never been one to do all this I'm a nurse and you're blah, blah, blah, I've never, ever done those, so this is all foreign to me. Yeah, that's why I'm probably like a little more like asking questions like that's good.
Speaker 2:
That's great because if you're asking them, other people will be asking them to, so that's brilliant. Yeah, yeah, we don't have to literally be a nurse, but I might drop into the body language and then the tone of voice and the attitude that a nurse would take it just the right moment and watch their eyes roll back in their head.
Speaker 1:
Yeah, and I guess, since I've never experienced, I've never had anyone yeah, I'm at a loss, but no, I can see. So if, if your partner really is into this and you're not like, let's go there, since I'm someone that's very clueless about this, how would you get started, like when you know if you're a couple, or do you just work with couples and you on talk more about that? However, whichever one would make sense next.
Speaker 2:
Sure, I actually don't do couples. I'm not very really. My expertise is I'm. I am have become the person who teaches the sex but some of the world's leading sex but how to understand what sexual fantasies are and how to engage them, how to create tailored experiences based on each person's Unique erotic wiring. So my clients are advanced sexual. You know they want to learn the erotic arts. They are. Lots of therapists are coming to see me and learn about it because For their own self discovery, because they can go deeper into play that way, but also because they recognize that they can also help their clients a lot deeper if they have this understanding Of what's going on.
Speaker 2:
I teach sex workers and elite professional dominatrices and some people who are Advanced enough that they want to come and learn the erotic arts deeply with me. They want to. They're not. Not, it's not so much the beginners, there's other people. I teach other people who can then teach you, the beginners like that, what to do.
Speaker 2:
But what I am doing is I'm writing out my entire theory and process, the divinery method, in a book that's coming out this year called the spirituality of smut, talking about how sexual fantasies are these transformative stories that we can tap into deliberately in our play To help each other access this, the full potential of erotic state of consciousness, of just ways of being, ways of feeling, ways of experiencing. And I also, if you, if you're, if it's okay with you, I'd love to also offer your clients a free lesson so they can have a sneak peek and see what the advanced people learn in the erotic arts. And there's a just a free audio, a little course that you can do, which I packed with as much value as possible, and you can check that out on my desire storycom. And you can also just go to my website with my name, dot com out of measure, divine dot com and get access to it there.
Speaker 1:
That's, yeah, just a freebie, because you know everyone's curious about what the yeah, what the elite erotic practitioners are doing, right, yeah, I went to Asec Show once where they was like the red room and different stuff, so I mean I don't, I didn't even go in, but yeah. So I know I'm familiar with this stuff. But yeah, if you want to spell for the people, if they're only listening just spell like your website too in your name, just to make sure they get to the stuff, and then yes, artemisia.
Speaker 2:
Artemisia is A-R-T-E-M for Mary, i-s-s-n-a-i-a, divine-d-e-v-i-n-e dot com, but you can just go to mydesirestorycom and access the free lesson there. So just my desire story. That's nice and easy to remember.
Speaker 1:
Yeah, for sure. Yeah, I just wanted to make sure because you know, if didn't, I know I spelled it right in your in the description, just in case they're only listening. Yeah, yeah, um, yeah. So yeah, that's awesome that you teach the people, that teach others, and I'm guessing do they have lots of clients? Is it becoming like a more popular thing, like you're exploding now, or always has? Or it's like what's going on with the industry?
Speaker 2:
Yeah, people are seeking out practitioners and therapists who are trained in the divinery methods so that they can explore themselves a lot deeper. If you have an interest in self-discovery and you want to use the erotic as a lens to do that, then certainly you can come and see me as well. Yeah, like you don't have to be, you know, an elite person, but I do have just limited spots that are available and they tend to get grabbed by the people who are more advanced. But yeah, it's such a thrilling thing to be part of people's erotic awakening when they finally make friends with these turn-ons they've been ambivalent about and confused about their whole lives and even ashamed about. It's so absolutely wonderful to help them realize that they are really clever parts of their own mind that's been on their side the whole time.
Speaker 2:
It's been overcoming whatever obstacle you've got in the way, even if you've got trauma in the way your sexual fantasies will alchemise your trauma. That's how powerful this mechanism is inside of you. But I'm not a therapist, so don't come to me for trauma stuff. But that's just so that you understand if you have sexual fantasies about things that you're ashamed of in the past that you did non-consensually happen to you and did harm you, and now you're confused about why they turn you on. It's because there's a part of you that's on your side and will not, under any circumstances, let you miss out on the power and beauty of your own eroticism. If there's a barrier in the way, it will include the poison and it will flip it on its head and include an antidote and help you access this part of yourself. There is a part of you that is fighting for your right to be a sexual being, and it's so wise, so wise.
Speaker 1:
Yeah, I always ask at the end is there any final comments? That sounds like a good final comment, unless there was more to it. But yeah, that's. I mean I'm sure there's plenty of people out there that are like ashamed, like you said, of what they turn, what turns them on, and I think it's you know there's something wrong with that, so I think that's very helpful to hear.
Speaker 2:
So powerful to hear that such a powerful thing. And if you want to, and if you want to keep hearing my tips, get on my mailing list, which you can just by getting that freebie. You'll get on my mailing list or go to my website and join in, because I write a regular newsletter that shares very generously about how the erotic psyche works and you can learn what the sexbirds are learning and find out any opportunities that are coming up, and you get on the red carpet VIP list to find out about when the spirituality of smuts coming out as well, so that you can get your hands on that book.
Speaker 1:
Yeah that sounds great, yeah, awesome, and congratulations for having you come out soon.
Speaker 2:
Thank you. Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 1:
Yeah, thanks. If you love this episode, be sure to tell your friends about it. And yeah, don't feel ashamed. Think how you are, fantasize the way it works for you and, like you said, it's teaching you something and getting your best erotic self. So thank you again, artimija, thanks, thank you.