NorCal and Shill
A podcast where NFT artists tell stories, hosted by NorCal Guy. https://twitter.com/GuyNorcal
https://twitter.com/norcalandshill
NorCal and Shill
Jack Dille
Episode 19: Show Notes.
Most of the NorCal and Shill episodes are centered around NorCal asking the guests all the questions… Tune in today to hear Jack Dille, Szns co-founder, DJ, and artist turn the tables on NorCal with some impossible questions! We start the conversation with some standard questions put to Jack about why he uses a hardware wallet, and how he entered the world of NFTs. We find out why NFTs were underestimated at the start of the bitcoin trend, and how they have come into their own. Jack and NorCal describe opportunities that they have missed that they most regret, and the internal debate around when to stop minting. We also hear how artists are using art to fund science and conservation, and how NFTs are involved in the Free Ross petition. Finally, Jack puts the spotlight on NorCal and we discover what animal he would be and why, and why he thinks he’s had the success he has. Don’t miss out on another fun episode of NorCal and Shill!
Key Points From This Episode:
● An introduction to Jack Dille: Szns co-founder, artist, and DJ.
● Why Jack has a hardware wallet and how it gave him peace of mind.
● The bugs in hardware wallets and why NorCal and Jack won’t be the solution.
● The benefits of a Ledger.
● What motivated NorCal to come back from holiday a day early!
● Jack’s entry into the world of NFTs.
● Why NFTs was the right train to be on: exceeding everyone's expectations.
● The regrets that Jack and NorCal have over opportunities missed.
● Where the NFT and the political activism worlds overlap: the Free Ross petition.
● Jack’s introduction to art as a child and how he got into the world of technology.
● How time and effort are the only ways to get ahead as an artist, and the benefit of experience.
● Why Jack would want to be a seabird, and NorCal and Jack’s shared love of the ocean.
● How artists are using art to fund science.
● Jack’s favorite food (burritos) and why NorCal has to taste Reuben sandwiches everywhere he goes.
● Paying with your time: the importance of loving what you do.
● Jack’s advice to new artists in the NFT space: start collecting to build a community!
● Where Jack would love to live, from New York to Barcelona.
● Understanding Jack’s new project: the Dow factory, Szns.
● Getting to know NorCal: how he got started in the world of NFTs, his tips on gaining a Twitter following, and his favorite type of art.
Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode:
EPISODE 19
[INTRODUCTION]
[00:00:32.0] NORCAL: Hey everyone, welcome to the next episode of NorCal and Shill. Today’s guest is Jack Dille, you can find him on Twitter, @jack_dille, you can find him on LinkTree jackdille. He started in Denver, moved to San Francisco and now is in New York. He spent seven years at Google working on user experience. He left, founded Szns with three other people, the services they focus on are collective NFT management via a Dow. He loves to DJ, he has a cat and wants to make more art. Everyone, please welcome Jack.
[INTERVIEW]
[0:01:17.1] NORCAL: Hey Jack, welcome to the podcast. How are you doing today?
[0:01:20.0] JD: Hey man, doing well, thanks for having me on. Stoked to be here.
[0:01:23.1] NORCAL: Yeah, well, I’m glad you can make it, it’s overcast outside here but…
[0:01:27.1] JD: Here as well.
[0:01:28.1] NORCAL: Feels great inside.
[0:01:30.2] JD: Another day in the great indoors.
[0:01:34.2] NORCAL: Right? Do you use a hardware wallet?
[0:01:38.1] JD: Yes, only because crypto Chad will admit to it. Probably three months ago now and before that, I’ve just been on the hot wallet game and he was basically like, “Yo, you’re being ridiculous that you don’t want to spend $60” Protect or hundred bucks or whatever it is, protect all your assets, the ones that matter.
That wasn’t really the problem, I didn’t really care about the price, it was more of the laborious process of setting it up for me that I had been kind of dreading and avoiding.
[0:02:16.2] NORCAL: Yeah.
[0:02:17.2] JD: Then, I order a ledger, the one that works with Bluetooth iPhone.
[0:02:24.1] NORCAL: Okay, the X I think, yeah.
[0:02:26.0] JD: Yeah. It came and I’m setting it up, whatever, it starts doing this thing where every two seconds, it’s like, “Battery temperature too hot” I was like, “What is this? I couldn’t even literally enter my password” I also didn’t realize how much — okay, a little context, I’m a UX designer. So, basically incredibly critical anytime I’m using any software or tech product of what’s going on and I was unaware that — cool, I want to be so safe and set like an eight digit password which takes you forever to enter on that little thing.
The two buttons and you're just like — I’m just clicking and my fiancée is like, “What are you doing?” I’m just clicking so much and getting more frustrated. You have to double click the buttons to dismiss the message and I was racing to dismiss the message and enter one number and dismissing and I was ready to throw the thing out the window, dude.
[0:03:31.1] NORCAL: Yeah.
[0:03:32.0] JD: Anyway, I emailed them and they just sent me a new one right away, no problem.
[0:03:37.0] NORCAL: Nice.
[0:03:38.0] JD: It did the same thing off the bat as well and I was like, “You got to be kidding me”. I read a long reddit post where people were saying that there was a batch of them that had this particular error. One dude’s like, “It’s fine, I just put it in the fridge for a while and then it never happened again” I was like, “What?” I guess if you got a buggy ledger tray, throwing it in the fridge is my hardware advice.
[0:04:04.0] NORCAL: They didn’t release the update that fixed any of it?
[0:04:07.2] JD: No, it was like — I think it was a physical hardware problem.
[0:04:11.1] NORCAL: Wow.
[0:04:12.1] JD: I think there is just — I feel like there is a huge opportunity to build a better hardware wallet but I don’t know really, anything about manufacturing hardware.
[0:04:23.0] NORCAL: I don’t know either.
[0:04:24.1] JD: Yeah. The UX is pretty good. Also, Ledger live, why doesn’t it just show me my E address? You have to go into advance setting to figure out what the E address is for the ledger wallet? That was confusing. Anyway.
[0:04:37.0] NORCAL: Yeah, I don’t — well, I have a ledger, I don’t — I just Trezor though, I like the user interface, the Trezor better.
[0:04:45.1] JD: Yeah, I don’t know, why did I get it? I think I got it because of the iPhone, right? The Trezor…
[0:04:53.1] NORCAL: The Bluetooth function?
[0:04:54.2] JD: Yeah. Which I have never used. it worked out really well.
[0:04:59.0] NORCAL: Right. I know people think, want to do that and I was just like “I’m never going to do that” plus it makes me nervous if you happen to take your wallet somewhere and someone’s like, somehow could catch your — whatever’s communicating.
[0:05:14.1] JD: RF ID sniping your E wallet as you’re e-walking through the street?
[0:05:20.0] NORCAL: The other thing, the ledger, if you have too many coins, you have to delete a wallet and add a wallet and at least on the S, I don’t know the X I think is more space.
[0:05:33.1] JD: Yeah, I really don’t know. I just got my main stuff on there and now I’m just chilling. It does feel better, I feel like I was having — the higher the prices went, the more anxiety I was having. It definitely gave me some pretty serious piece of mind.
[0:05:50.1] NORCAL: Yeah, it does, yeah. I’ve been debating lately with I went on vacation and I didn’t take my wallets with me because I’m not going to travel with that. My vault. That clone X drop happened where you could claim if you qualified and I was like, “F, I don’t have any of that with me” because I didn’t realize what the date was and I was like, “Crap”.
[0:06:17.1] JD: Right, oh no.
[0:06:19.0] NORCAL: It made me think, maybe next time if something’s potentially happening, transferring them to a hardware wallet just to travel with that has just basic stuff on it so I could claim things. I ended up having to come home a day earlier to claim stuff.
[0:06:33.2] JD: Wow, you made it back in time for the ClinX to claim?
[0:06:37.1] NORCAL: Yeah, because I was seeing how much I could claim and I was like, “No, I’m coming back a day early.”
[0:06:46.3] JD: Yeah, just a day, that’s good, it would be awful if it was like the day after you arrived wherever you’re going and you’re like, “Got to go back”
[0:06:52.0] NORCAL: I know, I’d be like, “Peace out wife, I got to go home for a day and I’ll be right back”.
[0:06:56.1] JD: “I’ve got to go do some NFT stuff, I’ll BRB”.
[0:07:03.1] NORCAL: Have fun with the kids!
[0:07:04.1] JD: Yeah, that’s great you got that drop though.
[0:07:06.1] NORCAL: Yeah man, they hooked it up for people that had previous stuff so yeah. What were your first thoughts when you heard about NFTs?
[0:07:16.1] JD: My first thoughts. Well, my first NFT were crypto kitties in 2017. Four years, actually four years ago, almost to the day now, I did it, I looked the other day, it’s like December 12th 2017 and my first thought, I was like, okay, this is like Pokémon, ones you could breed, you know?
Because at the time, I was just looking for something that wasn’t taken and I was like, “Okay, this website has some design aesthetic, there’s a whole decent UX here, there’s been a lot of work put into this, this is really cool” I was like, girlfriend at the time, Christie who is now the fiancée. I was like, “Oh, she loves cats, maybe this will get her into crypto”
[0:08:05.2] NORCAL: Okay, yeah.
[0:08:07.0] JD: 2017 was, I was just so hard on all the coins and trying to — it was the ICO.
[0:08:15.0] NORCAL: It was that.
[0:08:16.0] JD: Banger which was just — I was like, “Oh my God. Thank God, something that’s not a token or not an ICO” I was really stoked but I missed it, I mean, I got it but at the time, it was kind of a — it felt like a meme or an embarrassing thing in the crypto scene that I was in SF at the time.
[0:08:37.1] NORCAL: Yeah.
[0:08:38.0] JD: The people I was around were hardcore crypto builders and they’re like “NFT, that’s for babies”. You know what I mean? There was such a serious stigma that I was like, “Oh man, I thought it was just kind of fun”
[0:08:54.2] NORCAL: Yeah.
[0:08:55.1] JD: It was fun. I think ultimately, yeah, we were right on the NFT train. I mean, they both have their place but I think NFT certainly exceeded everybody’s expectations.
[0:09:07.2] NORCAL: For sure.
[0:09:08.2] JD: Last year.
[0:09:09.1] NORCAL: Yeah, you did better than me when you heard about it, I was just like, that’s dumb.
[0:09:14.0] JD: Well, no. I mean, all right, yes and no, right? Because I was also, I bought crypto kitties, there were basically two things on there at the time. I think I was even on OpenSea, I think they’re around them, maybe a little later. They were like, I remember my OpenSea profile is 2018, January 2018.
You could go on there and it was punks and kitties. I was like, “These punks are so ugly and stupid, I do not want”. It was free, they are free. I was like, “Why would I spend any eth on these, you know?”
[0:09:53.2] NORCAL: Within Eth, all the time high, not that high.
[0:09:57.0] JD: Add it to the pile of regrets, you know?
[0:10:01.2] NORCAL: Man, that’s awesome. I don’t want to buy an image of something. To me, it’s an image, who is going to do anything with that? I mean…
[0:10:09.2] JD: Right, yeah. Hard to — it kind of felt right yet not right enough. At the time, I was like, I was also a different — I basically kind of – how long had I been working that? Three years? I was just starting to make decent money at Google by that time, I was a contractor for a year, I was at an ad agency and then I started contracting, when did I start? I think I actually had just gotten hired full-time that year at Google I was just starting to save money and I’m like, I’m not going to put any money on to this — yeah, a JPEG in the Internet right now.
That would be a fiscally irresponsible of me to do which is adding to the irony.
[0:11:01.2] NORCAL: You’re right.
[0:11:03.1] JD: Yeah, I’d never need money again if I just bought a couple.
[0:11:08.2] NORCAL: Right, if you’ve just been like, “These are free, why wouldn’t I get these?” Just pay some gas.
[0:11:13.2] JD: Right. I mean, the longer, the more people I meet, everybody’s got like 10 of these stories, you know? It’s like the thing you almost bought or I was this close, everybody have spaces almost and multi-multi. We all go them. How about you, what’s the one that got away for you?
[0:11:36.0] NORCAL: Well, you know, it’s funny. I was — I’m not really — I enjoy learning about tech and everything but I’m not a techy guy in a way I guess. I remember reading in recent magazine, “Hey, there’s this new currency that just came out, you can buy it on your computer and this is how you do it” You just go and Download it and basically it starts mining and I’m like, that’s cool. I didn’t do anything.
I was like, yeah, damn it, that would have been so easy to get some bitcoin back in the day and I never did it.
[0:12:11.1] JD: Yeah, my buddy sent me his screenshot of his first bitcoin purchase from — it’s form 2013 on Coin Base, I remember being — around that time, how do I get this? Then I was like, did I just not even ever literally just ever Google it? I feel like I would have found Coin Base.
[0:12:29.4] NORCAL: Yeah.
[0:12:30.1] JD: How did it not happen?
[0:12:32.2] NORCAL: Yeah, that’s a good question. Because you only had Mt.Gox and maybe a couple of other small ones and then Coin Base. I remember there was rumors that Mt. Gox, there was issues, people were having issues withdrawing and so I was like, Coin Base it is.
[0:12:48.2] JD: Yeah, I remember, it felt like it was — you’re like, that would be cool and then all you ever — I mean, I think that’s still the case now, right? The media or when I was reading at the time was only ever crypto thing crashes and loses a million dollars, that was — that’s still the case, right? I think until you actually — okay, I’m going to direct my focus and attention on what’s actually happening and figure it out myself, it’s going to be like “Yeah, see, I was right, it’s not working”.
[0:13:25.0] NORCAL: Plus, you had like Silk Road back then and it was just like…
[0:13:29.0] JD: I was just looking at the free ross petition. Did you see that? Have you seen that thing?
[0:13:35.0] NORCAL: I haven’t seen it recently.
[0:13:36.0] JD: Yeah, it looks like there’s a whole, well, he just put out an NFT drop.
[0:13:39.2] NORCAL: I completely missed that.
[0:13:41.2] JD: Yeah, from prison which is kind of gnarly. Just, it was about his art, I think it was 10 pieces, I forget where but I guess he’s been drawing and painting in prison and pretty intense art set.
[0:13:58.1] NORCAL: I think I’ll go check it out.
[0:14:00.0] JD: Yeah.
[0:14:00.3] NORCAL: He definitely needed to get out.
[0:14:02.2] JD: I know, I read that there was a piece on, I think it was Wired and they kind of wrote it out as like it was a whole movie and in the article, they’re saying that he had put out two hits, that’s why they got him. They were saying, I don’t know, the petition now is saying that he was smeared and…
[0:14:24.0] NORCAL: Yeah, he definitely was smeared.
[0:14:26.0] JD: The judge was fired and…
[0:14:29.2] NORCAL: The FBI agents were bad and they’re arrested now too, I think.
[0:14:34.0] JD: Right, yeah, exactly.
[0:14:37.1] NORCAL: A lot of people, he did some good things, he’s all about freedom, that’s how we like it. So, I’m curious, how did you get into the art or what brought you to it?
[0:14:50.1] JD: Like specifically art NFTs or making it or what?
[0:14:55.0] NORCAL: You do make a little bit yourself, correct?
[0:14:57.1] JD: Yeah, a bit, yeah. I mean, I just aways — when I was growing up, my mom would just cover our table in the family room with a giant piece of paper and put out pens and pencils and crayons and stuff. I was just always doodling and during class, always doodling but I never really — this is possibly the biggest irony. I’m never going to make a living with this.
Which is so funny because everybody, the people who are best situated to take advantage of the NFT scenario we find ourselves at now are the people that have 10 years of art to onboard into NFTs, right? I’m just like, this is just a sick universe joke that they pulled on me that I love dart but didn’t think I could ever make money doing it and now I would have been making money but yes, I started out just drawing as a kid, doodling. I was also a huge gamer. I was a big MMO player.
That’s kind of how I ended up getting into design, I was like man, I’m spending all these time with the computer, I better build some shit here.
[0:16:07.0] NORCAL: Yeah.
[0:16:08.2] JD: I kind of picked up design, I was trying to learn some code stuff and I was telling you earlier, I didn’t take to the code as much but really enjoyed photoshop and actually, I started photoshopping memes and stuff for imager in the day, like reddit and imager, doing gifs. I really like, I really enjoyed making just gifs from stuff and ripping them from YouTube and that was really fun and had some mildly viral posts on Tumblr in the day.
[0:16:38.1] NORCAL: Wow.
[0:16:39.0] JD: That’s kind of where I really got, started doing Internet stuff but then, yeah, really transitioned into doing a lot more UX and design and then people, I followed people for a long time because he was doing it every day. That was just so inspiring. I did every days, I only lasted like seven months. But I have an Instagram account and all that old work on it and it was a bunch of 3D and drawing and processing, I was telling you about processing which is like built in a java script.
[0:17:11.0] NORCAL: Okay.
[0:17:11.2] JD: Similar language. It’s really cool though, it’s open-source and it has all these — people build the most incredible stuff, a lot of art blocks is built that way or like, the really insane 3D stuff or in P5 JF.
[0:17:24.0] NORCAL: Okay.
[0:17:24.2] JD: I think one of my biggest challenges is I’m just doing so much stuff but if I don’t sit down and do the art then it’s just never going to happen so that’s kind of what my goals is to put out — I want to put something out before the end of the year and thanks to you, I’m on foundation but now I’m like, man, I really got to think about this and I want it to be something good. Because in general, I felt like I come to art and I just like want to draw something in 10 minutes and be done.
[0:18:00.0] NORCAL: Great, yeah.
[0:18:01.0] JD: One of the pieces I collected by UAC. He said he spent a year on it and it’s like my favorite piece, I’ll probably never sell and it shows that he spent a year on it because it’s just so incredible. I don’t know. I feel like it’s hard because — I feel like I’m constantly comparing myself to artists I admire and you can see the gap and all the artist face this, I’m sure. I’m sure anybody else would say the same thing.
There’s the gap from where you are and where you want to be, where those guys are and it’s just like, the only way though that is the work and the time and effort, you know what I mean?
[0:18:44.0] NORCAL: For sure. I definitely think you should mint something this year because...
[0:18:47.1] JD: 100 P. I minted two things last year so that was good. I should just like — I should just minted all year long to be honest. Issue’s been ripping. Because I think the longer we go, the more, like that timestamp matters, you know what I mean?
[0:19:06.0] NORCAL: Definitely.
[0:19:06.2] JD: To just show this wallet was here on this day, I minted this. I’m kind of working around this concept, there’s — I forget who the artist is but he was in the 60s and all he did was paint — he painted the day every day for a really long time, just like literally the date. I kind of want to riff on that somehow and try to put out a whole year — I don’t know, I’m just kicking this concept around. It would be kind of inspired by that with another element of possibly like the season or something, I don’t know yet.
I don’t know, I feel like coming up on 2022, there’s — if I’m going to do something all year, I need to figure it out.
[0:19:53.0] NORCAL: Soon, yeah. You got a few days left.
[0:19:57.1] JD: I think just getting to that — while I’m doing the thing every day, it would be interesting. Although, I know it would be really challenging to do that, just going through the every day art piece, it’s like the last thing you’re doing in the day. I don’t know how people finds the time dude, he’s like, he’s like a dad, I’m sure he’s doing all sorts of crazy work and he builds stuff.
I think he spends like an hour to three hours every day in octane in 3D, Cinema 4D.
[0:20:29.2] NORCAL: I mean, maybe he’s got a file full of partially done stuff and he’s like, I’ll finish this one today.
[0:20:35.2] JD: Yeah, I mean, it seems like he definitely — I definitely watched it live where he just — he definitely — he’s just like talking — he just talks and it’s just like, he’s at such a point of mastery after doing it for so long that I think whatever’s in his mind is just happening in the tool, you know?
[0:20:51.1] NORCAL: Yeah.
[0:20:52.1] JD: It’s a state of flow. I have that in design software like on UX software and Figma, that’s like my main jam or even in illustrator, I’m like decent and photoshop where you don’t have to think about what you need to just — what you imagine is just happening. Pushing through to that place, basically in 3D software is kind of, or in generative art is where I’m at next. It’s just a time and effort thing, you know?
[0:21:20.2] NORCAL: For sure. Sometimes you're like, damn, do you have that and just need to put in the time, it will happen.
[0:21:26.0] JD: I think consistency is absolutely king, which is easier said than done. I’m like, man, I’m consistent on discord, we’re at like — when discord took in.
[0:21:41.1] NORCAL: Yeah, right? I mean, it is interactive though. If you were an animal, what would you be and why?
[0:21:49.0] JD: Let’s see, what was my — okay, I thought of a couple of things. Well, if you ask somebody else, they’d probably say, I giraffe just because I’m tall man, I’m just tall. I’m 6’6” Giraffe comes up. If I was choosing, I definitely would be a bird but definitely be like an albatross or something. Like one of those guys just out on the edge of the ocean that just cruise up around the drafts, that sounds pretty great to me. I’d love that.
We were in Mexico for Thanksgiving and there was these — just watching the birds, there were these birds of like these flip tails and they were just so cool to watch because we were down in this place where there’s all this kite boarding so there was a fair amount of wind and the way these birds just were able to navigate the drafts, it was so cool to watch, man.
Bird, it would be some sort of bird or an owl. I also like owls because it fly silent, that’s pretty cool.
[0:22:53.2] NORCAL: That is a neat trick, I like that trick.
[0:22:56.0] JD: What animal would you be?
[0:22:58.2] NORCAL: Octopus.
[0:23:00.0] JD: Another great one. Dude, that’s really good.
[0:23:04.1] NORCAL: I know, I think it’s — I like to just be kind of in the background, I guess and I don’t care about fanfare and all that stuff. I just like chilling. I can blend in.
[0:23:19.0] JD: Yeah, that masters of disguise.
[0:23:23.9] NORCAL: For sure.
[0:23:24.2] JD: Who watched my octopus teacher?
[0:23:26.6] NORCAL: Yeah, it is good.
[0:23:28.0] JD: Yeah, you know, you were like, “That’s actually about me”.
[0:23:30.2] NORCAL: Dude, I was like man, it would be so awesome if I could do that. I had a salt water tank back in the day before I moved to northern California and I was like always a dream to get a pet octopus or a pet cuttlefish type thing.
[0:23:45.2] JD: They’re like pretty hard to take care of or…
[0:23:49.0] NORCAL: Yeah, you definitely need to watch the water a lot to make sure parameters are within where they’re supposed to be but they only live like a yearlong so.
[0:23:59.2] JD: Yeah, I didn’t know that, I didn’t know that it was so short. I’m curious now, what is the longest lifespan of an octopus? What is the oldest octopus, you know?
[0:24:08.2] NORCAL: Yeah, I have no idea. I think some of those giant octopus live a lot longer but can’t have one of those as a pet.
[0:24:16.0] JD: they’re like giant. Just rip out that — actually think of that insane video where – of the giant squids, you know? That are like 30 feet long, those are so insane. The ocean is insane.
[0:24:30.0] NORCAL: It is.
[0:24:30.1] JD: I’m like, kind of obsessed with the ocean and terrified as well.
[0:24:35.0] NORCAL: Yeah, that’s me, I’m more of a terrified, I’m like, “I don’t need to go that deep”.
[0:24:40.0] JD: Definitely don’t want to go deep but I will watch it all day long.
[0:24:44.1] NORCAL: Yeah, someone else can do that and I’ll watch the video.
[0:24:47.2] JD: Yeah man, exactly, right? That guy going out every day, that guy should have minted an octopus NFT every day in octopus teacher.
[0:25:00.2] NORCAL: Right. It was awesome though.
[0:25:04.2] JD: Dude, that makes me think of — there’s that artist in our discord or in our CSA discord, Eva who is doing an ocean based thing where she put out the set and now, the whole thing is to fund an expedition to the edge of Argentina like the Antarctic tip of Argentina with these scientist to document it and one of the — she’s going to raffle, I forget if it’s a raffle or a based on contribution amount but somebody can accompany them on the trip down there which I thought was pretty cool.
[0:25:42.1] NORCAL: That’s cool. Man, I’m going to take you up for that I’m going to have to go search our discord for that, I totally missed that.
[0:25:51.1] JD: She’s in there, let me see, I forget what it’s called, Behold the ocean, it’s called behold the ocean. Yeah. Which I guess, I’m just popping on their discord now, she was Down at art basil I guess. I was there but I missed it. That’s too bad. I just thought it was a cool project, she has a thing where she’s saying, art funding science which is cool.
[0:26:15.2] NORCAL: Yeah, that’s cool. I have seen more — I guess, photographers that I followed that are trying — you know, funding, these sales will go towards this, or....
[0:26:28.2] JD: Right.
[0:26:30.0] NORCAL: I feel like Ruben Wu, his latest prints, he has a set of prints that he’s selling. I’m blanking on even where it’s through but those proceeds were going to some conservatory thing.
[0:26:47.2] JD: I love that. I mean, I really just enjoy that — I mean, constitution, that was a good example of collective engagement around that idea so I’d love to see, I just love the idea that we could fund any science research that we’d like, you know?
[0:27:02.2] NORCAL: Right.
[0:27:03.0] JD: That’s a totally new model.
[0:27:06.3] NORCAL: It is a totally new model. I like that you can also track where those funds go, you don’t have like people at the top there. Yeah, we give to the — we do research and living the high life.
[0:27:19.0] JD: Right, yeah, exactly. At the banquets.
[0:27:25.0] NORCAL: Right. I think it will definitely change all that for sure. Get rid of the middle men, the — have community voting with all that stuff.
[0:27:35.2] JD: I hope it works out and hope to see more projects like that.
[0:27:40.0] NORCAL: Do you have a favorite food?
[0:27:42.0] JD: I probably have to say burritos. I could eat a burrito pretty much every meal, breakfast burrito, like burrito.
[0:27:50.0] NORCAL: They’re so versatile.
[0:27:51.2] JD: Smothered green chili. Dude, I’m actually, I’m hungry right now, I might order a burrito, live.
[0:28:02.8] NORCAL: They are good, amazing.
[0:28:05.1] JD: Yeah, absolutely. Man, a close second, okay so here I’m going to reframe. Favorite breakfast food, huevos rancheros and I’m on a quest to find the best huevos rancheros in New York, which they’re like it’s an impossible quest but if you ever come here, you have to go to Cook Shop and order the huevos rancheros, that’s the best one I found.
[0:28:30.1] NORCAL: Okay, all right. I feel like that’s me with my — like a Rueben sandwich.
[0:28:37.1] JD: You’re a Rueben man.
[0:28:38.1] NORCAL: Yeah, I love them and so if I happen to go somewhere and they have a Rueben on the menu I’m like, “Dang it, now I got to try this.”
[0:28:45.2] JD: Yeah, no choice.
[0:28:49.0] NORCAL: Yeah.
[0:28:49.2] JD: Yeah, it’s very easy once the item is there for sure.
[0:28:55.2] NORCAL: Yeah.
[0:28:56.0] JD: Have you been to New York man? I’m sure you have.
[0:29:00.0] NORCAL: I’ve actually not been to New York.
[0:29:01.0] JD: Dude, what?
[0:29:02.0] NORCAL: I’ve only have flown through.
[0:29:05.1] JD: Oh my god, okay, well you got to come hang out. We’ll go Down to Cat’s Deli, get you a proper Rueben. Yeah, that’s be fun man.
[0:29:16.1] NORCAL: I know, maybe next year.
[0:29:17.2] JD: Yeah.
[0:29:19.1] NORCAL: NFT NYC.
[0:29:20.0] JD: Dude, that was a lot. That was a lot. I’m still tired from that week.
[0:29:28.1] NORCAL: I’m still tired, right, and then you have to go right into Miami.
[0:29:33.0] JD: Dude, oh man, yeah it was like back-to-back. We did NFT NYC and then Mexico for Thanksgiving and then California with my fiancée’s family and then Basil and now we’re home.
[0:29:45.2] NORCAL: Oh man.
[0:29:47.0] JD: This is a long month but it’s good though. I mean, I can’t complain.
[0:29:52.2] NORCAL: Right.
[0:29:53.0] JD: Yeah, it was. I mean, NFT NYC was crazy dude. It was wild. It was strange seeing — so I love music, right? I’m also a DJ.
[0:30:05.2] NORCAL: Okay, yeah.
[0:30:06.2] JD: DJ, I’ve been around the city and stuff and it was wild seeing some of my favorite DJs play for these NFT communities where they were like 200 people in the crowd. Usually there’s thousands of people, you know? It was wild and at these huge New York venues, that was pretty crazy.
[0:30:29.2] NORCAL: Yes, it’s like a little private show.
[0:30:32.0] JD: Yeah, it was but I was also like I wish there were a few more people here, which I never thought I’ve ever think. It was like, this place is too big for this many people, you know?
[0:30:46.1] NORCAL: Oh yeah, what has been the best piece of advice you’ve been given?
[0:30:51.0] JD: The only real resource is time, you know? I don’t know if somebody told me this or I probably read it somewhere but if finally like when things get — you’re like, “Yeah, yeah, that sounds great” but when they get really real for you and you finally intrinsically understand then that’s where I’m at, at this thing just because of like I worked at Google for seven years and I realized I wasn’t — I was actually paying them to work there.
Every time you are doing something, you are paying with your time, you know what I mean? As good as that life was and everything that I was doing there, I was like, “This isn’t — I am not spending my time the way that I want to be spending it in my life” so I feel like that advice/realization really finally hit me and was part of my decision to leave Google and start my own thing, you know?
That was probably the best thing I’ve ever finally actually understood and put into work. Some people seem to just know this off the bat but it took me a while to learn it.
[0:32:08.0] NORCAL: No, it’s really true. There is a — I remember, man I’m trying to think of who it was, there was a — that described like Bitcoin as like this time machine. Well, I guess because it’s deflationary. You can buy your time back in a way because if you buy it say like you’re exchanging your time for money but your money is deflationary, the USD or is inflationary, sorry, so you’re losing value.
You’re exchanging your time for something that’s losing value and you have to work more to get it whereas Bitcoin is and/or Ethereum is deflationary, so when you exchange your time for that you are in a way kind of gaining time for later in life at least.
[0:33:01.2] JD: Right, yeah exactly. It’s just like how do I either maximize efficiency of capital gains so that I can do really whatever I want or how do I make it work that I work on something that I enjoy or would be proud of later. I think the thing you know at Google like you hardly work. You get bonuses at the end of the year or whatever but it wasn’t — it doesn’t hold a candle to building your own thing where you have the final say and it’s like what you’ve done and built in the world. I think that’s like I couldn’t spend my time a better way than making art and products.
[0:33:44.1] NORCAL: Yeah, it’s a lot more work but it is definitely more rewarding and I mean, it usually pays off.
[0:33:50.0] JD: Right, yeah. I mean, you put in — I am directly reaping the benefits of my labor whereas — I mean, that happens at Google but it’s just like a different longer structure where you have less like I only left and the company is going to be completely fine, you know what I mean? There’s no kind of risk-reward scenario there.
[0:34:11.1] NORCAL: Right, yeah, they though.
[0:34:13.1] JD: Or it’s low risk. Low risk, fine reward but leaving is like high risk, higher reward.
[0:34:20.2] NORCAL: Yeah.
[0:34:21.0] JD: It just feels better to be in that situation right now I guess.
[0:34:23.0] NORCAL: For sure. I mean, you get to work from home and even though you are putting a crap ton of hours but yeah.
[0:34:30.1] JD: Dude, that’s been a real trip. I was just really reflecting on starting with the pandemic and it was like I am forgetting what it was like before, do you know what I mean? I can’t really imagine getting up and leaving my house frequently like on a weekday, you know? I was like, “How did I get up and just run to the office like that every day?” it’s crazy.
[0:34:57.1] NORCAL: Do you have any advice for any artist in the NFT space?
[0:35:01.0] JD: Yeah, collect art first. I think this makes sense, you surely understand this. Once you start collecting, you just get kind of — you just get up by artist all the time who want you to get their work, so until you and I tweeted about it the other day, the same thing but you as an artist should go collect in NFT because that will tell you so much about like if you’re a new artist to NFTs, right?
I am not sure if that’s what the question was about but if you are a new artist coming into NFT, then go collect a piece first because that will make you get Ethereum, that will make you get a MetaMask or whatever wallet and then it will make you go through, “Okay, which site do I buy from? Why do I want to buy this one? How did I find them?” just map out everything that you have to do because that is what everybody else has to do to buy your art, you know?
And then answer the question, “Why should someone buy my art instead of somebody else’s?” you know what I mean? I don’t know, so I guess that’s kind of my advice. I think yeah, the most critical piece is collecting art if you’re going to make it because it gives you exposure to the other side and you could do that now. It is totally possible with NFTs. I think it was harder probably before but it’s totally doable as an NFT artist.
Taking the time to understand the space and it’s nuances I think just pays dividends, you know? Versus people who are just like really up to you like, “Buy my NFT” absolutely not like block, goodbye, I’m not going to do it, you know?
[0:36:43.2] NORCAL: Yeah, you know I think that’s actually a good advice because if you are on Twitter and you’re looking at art and you’re like, “Oh well, frick, it’s difficult to go find this art even though I like it” so just making things streamlined I guess, go through the process realize where the bumps in the road are.
[0:37:04.1] JD: Oh and maybe the last piece of that would be to think about your second, third, fourth, fifth release, you know? If you’re going to do like one collection, what’s your next collection going to be like, how does that intertwine with your first one? How are you rewarding those early collectors because those people that are with you from the very beginning, if you make them happy or give them more stuff, keep them rewarded then that’s just going to come back to you ultimately because they’ll tell their friends, you know what I mean? I think that is just a good way to go.
[0:37:46.0] NORCAL: Yeah.
[0:37:46.1] JD: I think a lot of people don’t consider that from the beginning. This is just a one-off thing but with NFTs, you have such an ability to kind of target, retarget and reward your community. It is really you’re building a community not even like a bunch of individual collectors. It’s a community.
[0:38:05.1] NORCAL: Yeah, that’s true. There’s that one ast blocks guy, I don’t even know how to pronounce, I think it’s “Shimvlader” what is his name? Anyways, he, if you go through the time to collect like the stuff to get into his group, his little private group, he rewards you handsomely it looks like. He sells portals on foundation to peal again to his group. Oh man, it starts with an S.
I might screw it up but yeah, he definitely does and it’s a small group because it is at this point a little costly to get into it but he definitely rewards everyone that has put in the effort to get in into it. If you could live anywhere or move anywhere, where would you live and why?
[0:38:59.2] JD: I’d probably just get a better place in New York. I love it here dude, I really do. I don’t know, I can’t really imagine leaving it now. There is nowhere else I really want to be like it has anything you could want. It’s a nice flight distance almost anywhere in the US, South America. You can go anywhere in the world practically direct from New York, you know?
[0:39:25.2] NORCAL: So true, true, that’s a good point.
[0:39:28.0] JD: Huge international hub so I mean, we love to travel so that’s a great bonus. Okay, I mean another — the two other spots that I would consider would be Barcelona and Berlin, those are high on my list but probably will never happen or at least we won’t move there but I mean Barcelona, I just fell in love with it when we went. I just loved how it felt. I love the beach right there, I love the Spanish timeline like the way they lived and take their days.
You know, with the everything starts later like 10, 11, you have a siesta and then it’s open until like two, that is like my natural rhythm, right? It’s just like, this is perfect and then Berlin is just, you know, it’s Berlin. I felt like called to that place mostly for the music but just kind of the whole art scene and everything. I’ve always had a great time when I’ve been there.
[0:40:36.2] NORCAL: Nice.
[0:40:37.1] JD: I think those would be the two, I guess cities man.
[0:40:41.0] NORCAL: The cities.
[0:40:42.0] JD: The cities.
[0:40:43.6] NORCAL: Yeah, so anything you’re working on now Seasons, can you tell me a little bit about that?
[0:40:50.1] JD: Yeah dude, I’ll give you the full backstory. We were working on it as at a previous company called Exit Tree that was borrow and lending for Axis automated, which didn’t really work out that we pivoted into Seasons, which is, how do I say that’s NFT fractualization Dow factory, that’s like the fastest way I found to say it, which also isn’t like that. It is not very clear.
[0:41:20.0] NORCAL: Yeah.
[0:41:20.1] JD: Basically, we allow collective management of baskets of NFTs through governance, does that make sense?
[0:41:31.1] NORCAL: Yeah.
[0:41:32.1] JD: So I can give you examples, we have a concept of albums. Albums are buckets of NFTs and we’ve had two albums so far. We’re only doing curated featured albums to start but eventually the protocol would be completely open for anybody to create their own album. Our first two were divine Dow and the second one is me bits Dow and it is well, the platform is well suited to Dows.
Divine Dow put 20 divine loot and then the project will loot for adventures. They have 20 divine items, put those into an album and then our service allows you, allows them to offer a token swap for Eth and now, anybody who wants to come in during that token offering can buy or can swap for as much of their token as they want and want however much they get is how much they actually own those underlying NFTs in the basket.
[0:42:41.1] NORCAL: Okay.
[0:42:43.2] JD: Then once you hold that URC 20, in that case it was divine, you’re able to vote on proposals and propose new ones using Snap Shot, so once you’re in that community, you’re in the Dow and you can vote to buy list, add NFTs like whatever you need to do as a Dow together using that governance token.
[0:43:09.0] NORCAL: Okay, so they’re kind of set up like as, like an ETF type thing. I don’t even know, I might be confusing more people with that analogy but like individual ETFs you can buy in but you have voting rights once you buy in and with those voting rights sell by or vote to sell or buy and then potentially you can sell if you want to get out, you can sell either at a profit or a loss depending on where it is, okay.
[0:43:47.2] JD: Right, yes. I mean it is mostly a way for those Dows to focus around like having a management tool for their communities where they can have that proposal in an easier UI than Snapshot.
[0:44:01.2] NORCAL: Okay.
[0:44:03.2] JD: Yeah.
[0:44:03.3] NORCAL: Nice.
[0:44:05.0] JD: I mean, that’s where we’re starting. We’re basically working through like right now, I am actually working on getting our proposals together making it really easy for communities to say, “Hey, we really want, you know, we’d accept these NFTs in exchange for this much of our album token.” We have some other really exciting stuff coming up. One is called, this one I’m really excited about, this is our own Dow that we’re making called Trash Dow.
The idea is you can just offload any of those NFTs you want into the trash Dow as like the dump so it would just be eventually be like a Dow of like thousands and thousands of trash NFTs, right?
[0:44:50.2] NORCAL: It’s like a burner address Dow?
[0:44:52.0] JD: Yeah, kind of, yeah but it will actually — I could actually, I think the part that’s funny is that it could eventually actually be valuable, you know what I mean?
[0:45:01.0] NORCAL: Yeah, I think I can see that.
[0:45:01.2] JD: In a couple of years or whatever, so keeping your trash like actually keeping your token, your trash tokens or the trash NFTs could eventually be like valuable just from their date or whatever, so I don’t know. I am just curious to see how that’s going to play out. I think it is just a cool and funny idea. In an interesting way to use our platform.
[0:45:22.0] NORCAL: I like that one that was funny.
[0:45:25.0] JD: Yeah, it’s good. I think there is just a lot of meme opportunity as well and we’re looking to put some of the — like some actual trash artists, which I am learning about that as an art movement so yeah, it should be really cool so I am excited about that.
[0:45:42.0] NORCAL: Nice, that’s cool. Do you have any — go ahead.
[0:45:49.0] JD: I was just going to say, I think I am definitely still process or like working through an easier pitch. I feel like I’m not the best person who gives the pitch on our team like our CEO, John Lee, is really good at it and so is our product lead, James Dunkin. I feel like there’s — I have just too much in my head about the details of the product to summarize it well so I am always trying to get better at it.
[0:46:17.0] NORCAL: Nowhere. Do you have any questions for me?
[0:46:20.0] JD: Yeah man, I mean how did you — so, we’re talking about this a little bit before we started. You only started collecting this year, which is pretty mind blowing. How did you get into finding like Art Box and like the Ringer specifically so quickly? Because that was kind of early in the year even, right?
[0:46:44.0] NORCAL: Yeah, well I missed that Ringer’s actually mint. I had to buy that on secondary, yeah and I missed the Squiggles mint as well. I also have to buy on secondary but it was early on so it wasn’t — it felt painful back then but I did it but yeah, I only got one ringer and two squiggles but I got in on and I think I don’t even know what the third one was but I think I found — how did I find it?
I feel like it was like moon overlord, I feel like. I don’t know if you know him on Twitter but he started talking a bit about like top shots over maybe about a year or longer ago, so I started doing that and I don’t even know how I got into art blocks. I feel like someone in his Discord posted something and so I was just like browsing around OpenSea from that link, I don’t know and then I found, the first one I found was — oh, what was that?
It was like a 3D city that you could zoom in and out of and rotate it around and it was all in the blockchain and I am blanking on who made it and what it was called but I was like this is amazing and this is all start on the blockchain and its live, rendered live. I was like, “This is awesome” so maybe dive into the art blocks stuff more.
[0:48:17.1] JD: Yeah, that is like a magic moment. I mean, I saw Chromey Squiggles and I was like what? It took me way too long to figure out what was going on. I honestly didn’t realize for three months that you could click in and then chain, like toggle it and I was like brain explosion. I was like, “Oh my god, this is interactive not just to do a little squiggle.” I was like, “Oh” and I felt so silly but I mean, yeah, it was not obvious that that was a feature at the time, you know?
[0:48:51.1] NORCAL: Yeah, it definitely wasn’t obvious for the squiggles. I mean, it took me a little bit to understand those too and then I know there’s like — it seemed like there’s like the slow time after, even in back April I think it was and they had like a Jeff Davis, I think was the artist. His color study, which is pretty simple but I loved it and I just kept on minting those ones and they — because it was a pretty decent size mint and no one was minting them and that was like just watching and so it was kind of fun to interact with the community and be involved back then because no one was minting them and you’re watching people.
[0:49:39.1] JD: Yeah, I mean, yeah, you’d go to that. I remember you’d go to the page and it be like 250 out of a thousand just like that for days and you’re like, “Hmm, should I make sure I make another one of this? This is cool but like am I going to be the only person who mints this again?”
[0:49:54.2] NORCAL: Yeah but yeah, it was cool. I liked it back then because it wasn’t like this like and I think that one wasn’t play.
[0:50:04.0] JD: You can actually get stuff.
[0:50:05.1] NORCAL: Right, it was a playground once. It wasn’t like a curated drop but it was fun because you’re just like, “I’ll get a couple more” because you could see on their discord like the past mints, the mint channel or I forget what — I think that’s what it’s called. I don’t know, I was feeling like I had a rhythm of like when rare ones would come up every so often and I was like, “Well, it’s been a while, maybe I’ll try and mint like 10, see if I can get a rare one.”
[0:50:37.0] JD: Yeah, that was always the trick, you’re like, “Hmm, one more? What if I did one more?”
[0:50:48.0] NORCAL: Right and if you didn’t get that one more and someone else came in and you’re like, “Oh, they got a good one.”
[0:50:53.0] JD: I know. The worst. Well, okay, so also you have like quite a large Twitter following. What are your top Twitter tips?
[0:51:05.0] NORCAL: I don’t feel like I have that large of a following. I mean, I guess I have it’s like over 15,000 now but…
[0:51:15.2] JD: That’s a ton dude.
[0:51:16.1] NORCAL: I mean, I don’t know. I don’t know what it is. I am not very active on Twitter so I don’t post a lot. I don’t know. I’m not here for that fame so I don’t know.
[0:51:30.0] JD: You’re the octopus, I forgot.
[0:51:33.1] NORCAL: Yeah so…
[0:51:33.2] JD: The octopus with almost 16,000 followers, I love it.
[0:51:36.2] NORCAL: Yeah, I mean, I posted a bit more I guess in the beginning but I still didn’t get me up to those numbers. It was, I just was being a part of the community in people I guess sharing that I bought work. I think it is just being part of the community and I think the podcast is kind of helping with that just because people were enjoying hearing stories.
[0:52:07.0] JD: Right. Yeah, I was wondering, so what is your favorite kind of art? Like generative, photography, illustration, which one is your favorite and why?
[0:52:18.1] NORCAL: That is like an impossible question.
[0:52:20.2] JD: I’m trying to ask you.
[0:52:26.0] NORCAL: I mean, so I could tell you why I like potentially like photography because that is something you can — that is something that’s like I can — I know that, I can go experience that that situation and that photograph. It’s like a real-life thing. Illustration I guess I would say is more imaginative so dreams kind of are what like the 3D art or illustration and generative art, I don’t know, I just because it’s like, I like well, I would say that because it was like symmetric and what not but not all generative art is that way.
I guess just because it’s this technology that’s it’s art stored on the blockchain, you know if art blocks goes down you still have your art and it will be — you can generate it again and again where ever you want, you don’t lose it.
[0:53:30.2] JD: Right, yeah, you know I do wonder about on chain. I appreciate it when the artist takes the time to learn and care about that but I feel like it’s also pretty — even as somebody who is mildly reasonably technical, I don’t even know how to tell if it is or isn’t or tempted to take the word or the platform or whatever, you know what I mean? Then as a new artist, you’re like, “I have to do what?”
I feel like that is one of the deeper layers of the NFT creation thing but that is really cool man. I love that, as long as Ethereum is around, the art is around. That makes it worth it, yeah.
[0:54:12.2] NORCAL: For sure.
[0:54:14.1] JD: Worth the hassle.
[0:54:16.1] NORCAL: Do you have any shoutouts.
[0:54:17.2] JD: I mean, I’ll shout out crypto shed just because I think he introduced us, so thanks to him for that. Did he invite you to the server?
[0:54:26.0] NORCAL: He did it that way, he add me to your Discord server.
[0:54:28.2] JD: Awesome. Okay, cool. Shoutout to chat, shoutout to Hyperspec, shoutout to all the RCSA Discord, shoutout Season spam, who else? Shoutout to Justin Eversano.
[0:54:38.0] NORCAL: Yeah.
[0:54:40.1] JD: Shoutout to my fiancé, Christi, for putting up with me and my endless NFT talk, those are the real MVPs.
[0:54:51.2] NORCAL: True that. Well, thanks Jack. This is awesome. I loved it.
[0:54:55.2] JD: Yeah, dude. Yeah, it was a great time, great to chat.
[0:54:59.0] NORCAL: Well, we’ll have to do it again. Thanks.
[0:55:01.0] JD: Absolutely, see you.
[0:55:02.1] NORCAL: Have a good day.
[END]