Synod 2022

Summary:
On this podcast, a first-person recap of Synod 2022, Gregg DeMey (Lead Pastor), Jennifer Stolzenbach (Deacon), and Caryn Rivadeneira (Director of Care) run through the events leading up to and the happenings at the Christian Reformed Church’s Synod — a once yearly denominational meeting of representatives of Christian Reformed Churches. 

Today's Hosts
Gregg DeMey, Lead Pastor
Jennifer Stolzenbach, Deacon at Elmhurst CRC
Caryn Rivadeneira, Director of Care

Questions/Comments:  We'd love to hear from you! Email ASK.

Wade in the Word podcast is a production of Elmhurst Christian Reformed Church, located in Elmhurst, IL. Wade in the Word is produced and audio-engineered by Kyle Olson, Technical Director and Billy Heschl, Digital Ministries Coordinator. For more information about Elmhurst CRC or to find out about other tools and resources to grow you and your family in faith, visit elmhurstcrc.org.

Transcript

Gregg DeMey  0:05  
All right, we got the height music going because we're talking about the Synod of the Christian Reformed Church 2020 to mid July here, this is Pastor Greg DeMey coming at in about to turn the keys of this podcast over to one of my co workers, Caryn Rivadeneira, and we're also sitting here with esteemed Deacon, Jennifer Stoltzenbach.

Caryn Rivadeneira  0:28  
Yeah, this is so fun and the music is cracking me up because while normally Synod, you know, to some people seems to kind of a snooze topic this year. I think there were some interesting things that went down. So I'm super excited that we have two delegates here, faithful.

Gregg DeMey  0:44  
We exeperienced again every moment live and in person. And there actually is a surprising amount of music and singing and worship that happens at Synod.

Caryn Rivadeneira  0:53  
I wish we actually had some of that some of those outtakes, maybe we can find those probably online. So thank you both for doing this. I have I think you guys probably have to just been getting lots of people asking different questions about even what is Synod? Why was it being talked about so much what was going on? So that's why I think this is super fun that we're here. I thought maybe one of you could start by just helping some folks. Sorry to call you out on it.

Gregg DeMey  1:19  
I'm happy to do it info dump on this.

Caryn Rivadeneira  1:22  
What on earth is Synod?

Gregg DeMey  1:25  
Sure. So I mean, Elmhurst Christian Reformed Church, we're part of a denomination that spans both the United States and Canada, and this year welcomed about 20 churches from Venezuela. And next year is going to welcome 40 churches from the South American country of Colombia. So we are becoming an intercontinental denomination. So our little congregation here in Elmhurst is about one of 1200 churches around North America, and now South America these days and like we have our elders and deacons. And then across our denomination, we have something called classes, which are local geographical groups of about 20, churches that band together to hopefully join in common mission and do things that we can't do individually as a church. And then once a year, pandemic permitting, all the classis 50 classes around a continent send for delegates to meet in the general Synod or annual Senate. So it's to again accomplish things and mission that we can accomplish. Even on a classis level, or congregational level, and then there's big issues that we just need to sort out all together. And Synod did not meet for two years during the pandemic. So there was a big backlog of stuff that needed to be sorted out contended with. Some of it's easy when some of its hard and tender and complicated.

Caryn Rivadeneira  2:49  
Yeah, no, that's super helpful. And I think probably most denominations have things like this where they're meeting annually. And yeah, it's just the part of way churches are run if they're part of the nomination. 

Gregg DeMey  2:59  
Each of these 50 classis, as I said, sends four delegates, usually one pastor, one Elder, one Deacon, and then one, Pastor, Elder, or Deacon. So Jennifer was our Deacon from Northern Illinois, our particular classis stretches from the loop downtown, kind of in a narrow latitude bandwidth all the way out to the Mississippi River. So we have urban churches, suburban churches, like us, and then some farm churches out in the western lands of Illinois.

Caryn Rivadeneira  3:27  
And so Jennifer, Did I hear correctly that you actually volunteered, we should back up and mention that Synod met for nine days in person and just hundreds of hours. It sounds like of reading and meetings before you even left, is that right? I don't know that.

Jennifer Stolzenbach  3:43  
Hundreds but yeah, quite a bit of prep work. And for sure, some zoom meetings ahead of time, Greg had a little bit more prep work than I did. But yeah, we we did some work ahead of time. And then in the

Caryn Rivadeneira  3:57  
volunteer distributed for this. Yeah. How about that?

Jennifer Stolzenbach  4:00  
We were at the March classis meeting in wheaton. And yeah, it just kind of came about I tossed my name out there thinking, oh, somebody else will step up. Right. But it was me so I it was great. I'm, I'm privileged. I'm glad I got to participate and just watch that part of our denomination work.

Caryn Rivadeneira  4:28  
That's awesome. One of our residents sort of church historians, Pastor Dave Armstrong, popped in when you were gone. And I think he mentioned that you are not only the first and only I think Deacon from our church to go, but of course, the first woman delegate as well. So you made some history there. Wow. So we'll have to verify if that's correct. That's awesome. Anyway, we should put up a planet or something.

Gregg DeMey  4:51  
Play We are the champions. 

Caryn Rivadeneira  4:54  
I love it. Okay, so tell us a little bit about how Synod works. So you do all the prep stuff, you do all the reading. And I saw you guys faithfully putting together all those binders and so many binders, so many binders. But once you get there, talk a little bit about how it works like What do y'all do? Well, there

Jennifer Stolzenbach  5:14  
were over 200 delegates, again, as Greg said, from all the different classes, and in addition to that, there were youth representatives. And faculty, faculty advisors, right, and ethnic advisors. Correct. And we did we kind of split the week. So the first part of the week, we were in all of our committees, their eight different committees, I could list them off. I was in committee two, which is church order and related matters. And Greg was on the committee that dealt with the human sexuality

Gregg DeMey  5:49  
report. Committee number eight, human sexuality. Yep.

Jennifer Stolzenbach  5:53  
Super, super dynamic. Right. So then, yeah, the second half was together in that body of 200 plus probably 275 People at some time. Part of the time in the large room. Yeah, Trinity. Right. So that's, that's yeah.

Gregg DeMey  6:15  
Oh, yeah. No, I mean, prior to going so there was about 1200 pages of sort of agenda and documents to kind of read and process prior to showing up just a little committee that I was on number eight, I mean, kind of what happens is that, at the beginning of the first four days, you spend in committee and your committee is doing kind of the spadework to present on significant issues that you do a deep dive on, and then kind of distill and bring a recommendation, or, you know, kind of a summary to the floor of Synod. Because there's just not time for 200 people to go through all of that in the same level of depth. I mean, my experience with committee number eight was that, you know, it's 24 of us going in a room, we actually had about 600 pages of material between, like, 180 page report on human sexuality and all the communication, more than 60 pieces of communication that came from all over the denomination requesting Synod to respond or react or approve or deny all of or certain parts of that human sexuality report. So none of us, you know, really knew each other. I mean, I knew a couple people, previous experience with them. But by and large, you know, you're in a company with strangers, they lock the door behind you, and are kind of like, hey, come out of here, and three and a half days and process all of this stuff, have a nice tidy summary for Synod and respond to all 60 pieces of these communications from around North America.

Jennifer Stolzenbach  7:50  
It was a tidy summary. I mean, like every single word we deliberated over, and that that was really impressive to me how just thoughtful the committee work was and sensitive to all of the different views that we're going to be looking at it and considered, for in particular, we had two sensitive topics as well, which when you hear church order, you think, yawn, it's going to be a really exciting days. But

Gregg DeMey  8:18  
you must be born out of church order, then it gets very exciting.

Caryn Rivadeneira  8:22  
Yeah, yeah. Well, we'll get to that in a little bit. So yeah, that's exciting. So you're kind of sounds most like jury work a little bit. But yeah, sequestered. And these long day being served

Gregg DeMey  8:32  
on a grand jury, this was a little more intense and took more creativity in generative power. So to Jennifer's point, you have a bunch of people who care about words a lot, and a lot, and a lot of the discussion is just trying to get things down to as clear and simple a form as possible. And it's not necessarily that everybody in the room, you know, agrees all the time. There's a lot of compromising that's going on. So people have to die to their personal opinions and like pet ideas in order for the work of everybody to move forward.

Caryn Rivadeneira  9:09  
Yeah. I love it. I love fighting about words. Actually. All that sounds super fun to me. Okay, so Jennifer, let's talk a little bit about I love calling them by their numbers. Committee number two. Sounds so secret. So yeah, you would reference that people hear church order and kind of yawn. But this year does seem like maybe they were a couple of church, ordinary things that got a little interest is interesting. Is there anything you can tell us specifically about so

Jennifer Stolzenbach  9:33  
I can tell you just a little bit about one of the things that we reviewed in that was a personal appeal from a former staff member from the Canadian side of the CRC. So we had a that's where we kind of got a lot of paperwork ahead of time to look through and, you know, come with that working knowledge of what had happened and I really can't go into detail here. You know, it was a confidential matter.

Gregg DeMey  10:01  
I think it's safe to say that like the Executive Director of the Canadian branch, the denomination was released from employment. So there was an appeal kind of around that.

Caryn Rivadeneira  10:13  
So does it sort of work like the courts? I guess, just to keep up with that analogy, had they appeared hideous or that person appealed to classes, and then it goes to Synod? I mean, it's, it's nice, I guess that there is room for people to heal decisions.

Jennifer Stolzenbach  10:26  
Right. Right. So he had worked through, I think the process with the Canadian corporation, again, this the that side of the CRC, and they had worked through their channels to make that decision. To release him from his position they there was one so the issue was not necessarily performance or grounds. But that the process the guidelines for making going through that due process, we're maybe not, right in line with how they're written. And so it wasn't that we were going to make it make a judgment on whether or not his work or whatever, right or whether or not this was an appropriate decision, but whether or not the process that is outlined in short order was followed.

Gregg DeMey  11:23  
Yeah. So Synod is probably good for making sort of process-oriented decisions. Not necessarily good at like making the, you know, fundamental policy decisions, we generally as a denomination trust the local churches or the employees of the denomination, so a lot of like the stuff that comes before Synod tends to be process related.

Caryn Rivadeneira  11:47  
Yeah, which, you know, the CRC kind of does, well, we like a good process. That's super interesting. So that you dealt with one other issue, but I think we'll come back to that in a little bit. Maybe we'll tie it into to Greg sort of where we're committee is number two and number eight overlap a little bit. So we're things got, I think, really interesting. But perhaps that How about a couple of other little fun things I saw, I saw a friend get ordained or whatever happened? Not every day and whatever happens officially blessed sanctioned?

Gregg DeMey  12:16  
Yeah. So maybe, Jennifer, maybe we can do. Maybe we can do some rapid fire just like little snapshots of things that were interesting or fun that you remember from the week. So one ticket to Caryn's point is Synod gets to approve, approve the new candidates for ministry. So those who have like graduated with M.Div degrees gone through all their oral comps and exams, Synod kind of has a moment where we recognize them and bless them and then sends about in the world to find a school a church to serve or a call to the call to

Jennifer Stolzenbach  12:48  
right we did that one evening, we had an opportunity to listen to two different ways. They were interviewed by Synod. I mean, people went up to the floor and had an opportunity to ask them questions. And

Gregg DeMey  12:58  
these are seminary professors perspective. 

Jennifer Stolzenbach  13:00  
Yeah. seminary. And they, I mean, they really put them through the paces, at least from my seat. I was like, wow, they covered covered a lot of so like,

Caryn Rivadeneira  13:08  
turn to the seminary professor interview. Okay. Yeah, Calvin too probably new professors get interviewed.

Gregg DeMey  13:15  
Not at Calvin university, but Calvin seminary, all new professors go through a theological Synoptical. Nice. So one, one was a gentleman from Trinity Christian College right here in Chicago named Dr. Udah. TianTau, who's an Indonesian. Sarah and I lived in the same building down the hall from him 30 years ago. I did at one point, this just this does relate to the human sexuality report. The first gentleman we interviewed, was actually Brazilian, married an American woman they lived he I think he did his Ph.D work in the Netherlands actually just a cross a whole bunch of cultures and worlds. And now I don't know where he was teaching last 10 years or so. But now he's coming to Calvin Seminary and you know, was there with the spouse and kids and everybody clapped. Dr. Tonto from Trinity has been a single guy, as long as I knew him. So I didn't feel compelled to stand up and say, like, hey, like, we do a great job celebrating people's families and don't do an awesome job celebrating people's faithful singleness. And like, here's somebody who's living a great fruitful, focused. By all accounts, he's, I mean, he's such a fun, passionate guy has a ton of energy to invest in the lives of his students. And just to say, like, hey, as a single person, like, amazing professor, so sure,

Jennifer Stolzenbach  14:39  
I would love love to sit in one of his classes. I mean, people were coming up to the to the microphone and saying, you know, you had my daughter seven years ago, and he would say, I remember her and have a little story. I mean, such a neat guy.

Caryn Rivadeneira  14:53  
That's awesome. Yeah.

Gregg DeMey  14:55  
He is coming out dear listeners with a book about John Calvin in the Next month, so he was part of the pandemic time. Okay, where there were not as many students enter into these campus to actually get this book done that I think has been in his brain and heart to do.

Caryn Rivadeneira  15:10  
Okay, well that. And that was nice of you to recognize him in his singleness. Because I know from single friends, that is probably the number one criticism of the church were so good at celebrating the families and don't ever know what to do. So I'm sure he was really touched by that.

Gregg DeMey  15:24  
Well, he was not in the room at the time he was. Yes, I did. Gotcha. personal conversations with him was along these lines as well. I would say a couple other fun things. It's really nice to have other people make food for you all. So we got to eat in the cafeteria of Calvin University, like every day, so you know, you can go through the food line. They had an amazing salad bar every day. It made me quite happy. Yeah. And

Jennifer Stolzenbach  15:51  
the ministry partner. I think diagonal ministries, the partner ministries each day had a snack or refreshment that they right provided for Senate and yeah, that was lovely to

Gregg DeMey  16:05  
come during coffee break, and Calvin University now has a Peet's coffee. We don't have those in Chicago. Do you think that's more of a?

Caryn Rivadeneira  16:14  
Peet's? Yeah, Peet's

Caryn Rivadeneira  16:17  
know of it. Yeah, yeah.

Gregg DeMey  16:18  
Okay. Anyway, there's one of those on Calvin's campus now. So they gave us all gift certificates. And one of our because it is cheap, there is cheapness and the Dutch DNA delegates discovered you could take one of those Synoptical gift certificates and get as many coffees as you wanted. So by the end, people are getting like four coffees and bringing them to our entire table with one gift certificate, which I feel about.

Caryn Rivadeneira  16:42  
I don't know either. How does that fit into church order? Get as many coffees now tasting. That's great.

Jennifer Stolzenbach  16:47  
muffins so that I at least supported them a little bit when I went over. I had one.

Gregg DeMey  16:52  
Okay. Yeah. So yeah, I enjoy coffee from time to time, maybe maybe not even one a day on average, but I probably set a PR for coffee consumption during summer very

Caryn Rivadeneira  17:02  
long days. So I totally do not blame you. And I love that the food was okay to I feel like we did not appreciate college food. You don't appreciate it. Somebody else cooking for you all the time until you need to cook for yourself. I love it. Okay, any other fun things before we get into the?

Jennifer Stolzenbach  17:17  
Well, the we we shot some videos. I was Oh yeah, just star and a couple of them for that we sent back every day for you guys to put on the Facebook. And that was fun for me. Greg's probably used to it used to sitting in front of this microphone and all the time. But that was kind of a neat little bonus.

Gregg DeMey  17:36  
So fun. We had some friends on their bench patrol. Yeah, who grew up at Elmhurst CRC who's a pastor in Holland, Michigan, and then from our little classes. pastor named  Eric Schlukebi from Grace Valley, German Valley, appeared. So he also a highlight for me, it was like every morning at eight o'clock worship would start on the floor of Synod and some days that was 15 or 20 minutes, there were certain days I was probably north of a half hour of singing and prayers. So I just for me, that's a real highlight as somebody who leads a lot of worship services, just to be able to receive that and be led. The, I'd say the only break we had in the schedule was on Sunday morning. We had stuff scheduled like work scheduled on Sunday afternoon. And then we did have a Sunday night worship service altogether.

Jennifer Stolzenbach  18:33  
The piano player was excellent. 

Gregg DeMey  18:35  
I did play the piano.

Caryn Rivadeneira  18:37  
Yes, nice. Okay. And what you do on the Sunday morning was to just fall break or you're encouraged to go to check out the churches or you do on Sunday? I'm sorry. This is like a judgmental question. It's fine. If you just we were

Jennifer Stolzenbach  18:47  
encouraged. No, we were given a list of the churches in Grand Rapids. I spent my morning in God's creation. There was a lovely Nature Preserve just across the Beltline from the campus and Yeah, beautiful ponds and birds chirping and big evergreen trees. And I enjoyed that time.

Gregg DeMey  19:09  
Yes. Yeah. So I actually made this a matter of prayer as well and felt God saying like, you need to get outside in my world, man.

Caryn Rivadeneira  19:18  
So I actually like playing.

Gregg DeMey  19:21  
Again, like we went to a church service at night. But I met I met one of my brother-in-law's at 6:30 in the morning, and we paddle boarded around Reed's Lake for several hours and then he actually was playing guitar in his own local congregation at 10. And then I went directly from the paddleboard to about a six mile walk run around Reed's lake. So I was outdoors for like five hours straight, which was beautiful in the midst of all of the

Caryn Rivadeneira  19:53  
administrative Oh my goodness. Yes. Yeah,

Jennifer Stolzenbach  19:55  
I didn't put in quite that much sweat. It's totally fine roll for me.

Caryn Rivadeneira  20:01  
It's a good way to spend a Sunday morning. All right.

Jennifer Stolzenbach  20:03  
Nice balance.

Gregg DeMey  20:05  
Just want to mention one other thing about skipping church services now that we're on this topic is that Senate actually formally approved a change to church order, which for the last 150 years has read that a Christian Reformed Church should ordinarily meet two times on the Lord's day, it no longer says two times.

Caryn Rivadeneira  20:25  
So hold up, were we out of church charter or not? I mean, we had two services to that count. The person I know it was, so

Gregg DeMey  20:32  
the strong implication. So it got dialed back about 15 years ago. to sort of make churches like ours that were no longer having evening service that we were technically not out of church order. But now there is even no illusion in church order that this practice is to be commended. So there was a there were a few people, probably from the heartland of the United States that stood up and like we really shouldn't change this. But

Caryn Rivadeneira  21:01  
indeed, it's hard to move forward. But yeah, okay. Yeah.

Jennifer Stolzenbach  21:05  
Yeah, I knew there would be a little bit when when we it was in front of our committee, and we they had some of the more seasoned folks to Senate it said this will have some comments made. So yeah, opportunity for people to Yeah, yeah. speak their mind.

Caryn Rivadeneira  21:24  
Okay, well, good. All right. Didn't mean to get out. Less church. So

Gregg DeMey  21:28  
let's turn the corner and talk about human sexuality showing

Caryn Rivadeneira  21:33  
committee number eight. Yeah. So, Greg, how on earth did you get to be part of this committee? I should have asked me there, Rachel. Sorry. You are Jennifer. Now, Rachel, is are these randomly selected? I guess that's part of it, too.

Gregg DeMey  21:49  
Yeah, I actually don't know how the denominational office makes the assignments. I will say, we, all of us who are delegates received like a Synoptical email address, like a Gmail address that denominational communication came to all of us personally, and then access to the various documents then could be had through that portal. So maybe, I don't know, a month or six weeks before the in person gathering of Senate started kind of committee assignments came out. So there's about a 20 page document that had the listing of the eight committees, the business that they were going to process, the overtures or communications that were attached to that committee work, and then the delegates who are on there. So because there's eight advisory committees as number eight, I'm paging through this document online, right, like, Oh, I wonder what committee I'm going to end up being on and actually made it to the end. And because I was number eight, I'd like was like, I don't think I they must have skipped me or something. But no, I really wasn't number eight, and then realized, oh, boy, this is this is going to be complicated.

Caryn Rivadeneira  22:59  
So this, maybe talk a little bit about the human sexuality report. It's been out for some time it was completed. Yeah. Talking about when it was commissioned, why it was commissioned. Kind of just tell us about

Gregg DeMey  23:11  
that. Yeah. So Synod, kind of knowing that American culture, North American culture has been changing fast and furiously, probably partly in the wake of the Supreme Court's Obergefell decision in 2014. I think Senate 2015 commissioned this report and gave a committee five years to kind of research interview people and put together a report that would lay a biblical foundation for kind of a theology and practical approach to matters of human sexuality. So that report was more than five years in the making, and would have been processed probably at Synod 2020. But because of the pandemic, now, it's been seven years in the making,

Caryn Rivadeneira  24:04  
and what do you do you feel like that extra two years? I mean, there was there was a lot of material. In response, you said the overtures, which maybe you should explain quickly what that is.

Gregg DeMey  24:13  
Yep. So an overture is either from a local congregation or a classes or under strange circumstances can even be from an individual if their class has screen lights, a personal overture. So it's just a reaction that a piece of communication that goes directly to Senate that either asks for Senate to approve or not approve or process, either the entirety of the report, or maybe one of the specific recommendations of the report. So the human sexuality report, it's about 180 pages long. At the end of the report, there are seven recommendations. So some of the overtures had to do with the report in its entirety, some more narrowly with just like one of the recommendations or two With the recommendations,

Caryn Rivadeneira  25:00  
and how many overtures did you have? Yes, 60 ish. Yeah, that's a lot. Yeah. And in addition to the I mean, you guys had the official overtures, but there were, you know, people speaking about it, you know, making little videos, retired professor, there was just a lot. And I'm wondering if it wouldn't have been for, I guess what, here's my question. Do you think COVID Those extra two years, do you think maybe that turned up the heat on this a little bit? Or kind of caused a little more energy around it? Or do you think this would have existed anyway?

Gregg DeMey  25:32  
Yeah, so so for sure. Having the extra time to process gave more time and latitude for reaction and communication? I don't know. I kind of look at that as a gift, actually, to have more time around a very deep, complicated, sensitive topic. So yeah, I don't think it made anything more extreme. That wasn't my read anyways. I mean, there does exist in the wider denominational community now kind of like the coalescing of perspectives in kind of like organized communities. So there's a couple groups that are more aligned with kind of like pro the report, and that just that, but maybe a more conservative interpretation of the report, and there's a couple groups aligned on not loving the report or a more progressive interpretation, or wanting to jettison some aspects of the report. So probably having extra time has allowed those kind of coalescing of Yeah, groups. And I don't know what to say, like, right now, it's not like there's a civil war that's breaking out. But there's like the possibility of, you know, rising tension as a result of that. Sure. Sure. competing viewpoints personally, I think like, we're on the cusp of having a more well defined and healthy conversation. But even having said that, like, we're human beings and people get excited. And when there's conflict, like lash out and say dumb things, and, you know, lovely Christian foreign people aren't exempt from that,

Caryn Rivadeneira  27:07  
or no. Well, right. And it's an emotional issue for people on all sides of the issue. And and I think, whenever there's something that people feel like, the kingdom is at stake, souls are at stake lives are at stake. I mean, it just, it heightens it up, but before and maybe any of that, why don't you just give a brief summary of the 180 page report or where it was approved? In so maybe just talk about what what it's?

Gregg DeMey  27:34  
Yeah, so one of the one of the seven recommendations, at the end of the report was for the denomination to receive the report as a useful summary of biblical teaching on the topic of human sexuality. So our committee talked about just that summary, and kind of tightening the language up of like passing this on. To our congregations, like for quite a while. I would just want to notice, like it's a pretty modest claim. This is 100 page document. No one's saying it's the final word, and what the Bible says about human sexuality. Nobody's saying it's the definitive report. Nobody's saying like, it's the end of the conversation, but it's a useful summary of biblical perspective on human sexuality. So my takeaway from that, and I think very much the spirit of committee number eight was like, Hey, if you read this, or converse about the deeper things in the human sexuality report, with your small group, in your congregation, with your leaders like this will generate difficult and great conversations. It's not meant to be like the answer manual that like here, you're wondering about all these difficult things, just like read this, and then you'll have it all sorted out. Like, that's not what the human sector auto report or Senate passed.

Caryn Rivadeneira  29:04  
So I guess that's the part that's interesting, because it seems like you know, in kind of reading about this, both I am seeing people both on the conservative and on the progressive side, who are saying well, because this was now confessional, it does seem like it is the final,

Gregg DeMey  29:22  
so to stop there for a minute and you use this word confessional, which is loaded? Well, like well, we'll get there soon. It did pass a recommendation using the word confessional. But it is the narrowest possible. association with that word is on one very specific topic, the 180. Page HSR is not confessional. Right, and I would say in our committee, no single person came out of our committee and was like, I agree with everything in that report. I mean, to a person there's parts of it that we didn't like would want to change would want it edit would want to improve. And it's not to be ungrateful to the group of 12 that put this together. Like, I mean, even with five years with really pastorally sensitive, super well educated, biblically insightful people, I mean, think of trying to write 180 page report and the collaboration and negotiation. So again, it's not to say that the report is perfect, or that the report is confessional quite to the contrary, but our committee number eight resisted the strong temptation to remove or edit parts of the entire HSR, partly out of gratitude toward the people that put it together. And partly because once we open that up, like how much editing are we going to do? Oh, sure, and not trusting ourselves in a four day period. Like to get that balance, right? You

Caryn Rivadeneira  30:51  
just spent five years on this, but we're gonna go ahead, which

Gregg DeMey  30:54  
will make it 10% better in the next three days.

Caryn Rivadeneira  30:56  
totally appreciate that. So if I understand all this correctly, like from what I've read to and from just talking with you guys and reading, Greg, what you've been reading, it comes down to this word, really, this report, talked about the word on chastity as appears in the Heidelberg Catechism, which were the confession. So I'm

Gregg DeMey  31:13  
gonna, I'm gonna pause you again for one second, which is like that is deep into the report. Yes. And you asked for a summary of the report. And I just want to acknowledge a couple of the things that comes before the depart, one of which is, that is reformed people very much, we want to start with the goodness of God. And even though creation is broken, and fallen, that still there are powerful residue of the original goodness of creation. In all aspects of human life, including sexuality, even though there's a lot that can easily go sideways, wrong and be destructive. So we don't start from a past posture of like, who your sexual nature is like playing with fire. So indeed, but with the goodness that this is a gift from God, into the lives of human beings. And God gives us a whole range of possibilities of how to steward this energy and potential that we have. So just want to say that out loud, and then also say, you know, probably nobody in adulthood has lived a perfectly moral life or perfectly responsible stewards of life with their sexual energies. So, before we got into these deeper discussions on the floor of Synod, like we spent, like a half hour in prayer and lemon lamentation and repentance, just for our errors in both for the church's handling or mishandling of conversations, sensitivities, hospitality toward the whole range of sexual orientations and experiences. And again, this part of our life is like sensitive and fraught, and I mean, I'm old enough to remember like, you could hardly talk about these things and good company, as a kid, and like, I'm glad to be here all these years later, and can talk about this on a church podcast, and the world's not gonna end and nobody's gonna throw stones through the south windows at church or anything.

Jennifer Stolzenbach  33:22  
Right. I think, for me, that beginning before the report was read and presented, that time of lament, probably half an hour of prayer and reading the laments, each each person, I believe, from the committee aid had a portion to present. And, I mean, I think it just like, I did not see that coming as far as like a personal effect, not that it's about me, but I think I saw a lot of people just change their posture and their demeanor. I, you know, I shed a few tears, it was probably it just changed me. And it really, I think, set the tone that just that opening for how everyone and Senate would receive that. I think a V.

Caryn Rivadeneira  34:15  
Yeah. And to me, you know, reading through the report, I think this stuff on repentance and lament was so powerful, like, honestly, I feel like I mean, the half Howard senate is beautiful. I feel like church community should spend like, two years, you know, I think about even the origins of this church with Catherine Tessman, you know, a woman who, you know, kids out of wedlock divorcing their her just unbelievably wild story and how God used her and then you think about how just even aside from LGBTQ issues, just how you know, women who became pregnant you know, were treated and there were so many things that right like you're saying that we have with the scope of sexuality. Been so overly hard sometimes and I think that that was so beautiful in the report, just this idea of the like, you're saying that pasture of lament starting there and being like, we have gotten so much wrong. We're trying to do stuff. Right. But let's start there, I think is really beautiful.

Jennifer Stolzenbach  35:07  
And to reflect that back to the churches and the congregations that yes, we should take that example. Yes. And,

Gregg DeMey  35:15  
and yeah, so I'm actually hoping sometime this year, there'll be maybe the right moment in a Sunday morning worship service to share a portion or all of that prayer that kind of came out of Senate, it would be difficult. But the thing that accomplished to me and floor of Senate is that it puts us in the posture of like, we're sharing brokenness on this issue is not like the rapport or committee number eight is coming from a biblical answer people or we claim the higher moral ground kind of perspective or trying to like, share the recommendations from a place of common ground and common brokenness. It's not necessarily been received that way.

Caryn Rivadeneira  36:02  
Yeah, right. Probably not. Again, it's an emotional issue for people. And so I think all this stuff takes time. But I think the longer repentance and momentum again, that posture that was a great word, Jennifer, for that, so. Okay, so Sorry, I interrupted a bunch of things. Are there other things you wanted to summarize? Before we get back to chastity? No.

Gregg DeMey  36:22  
So the the last thing before we got to chastity, and probably the longest portion of the human sexuality report, is actually on the topic of pornography in pornography in our modern world with when digital access is right on a level that our forebears would be appalled by and possibly cannot imagine. And just recognizing, like that single issue does more harm in the realm of our experience of human sexuality than anything else that is going to come up in this report. And that pornographic excess affects old people, young people, doesn't matter about your orientation or sexual attraction, like it affects, potentially like everybody. So it's kind of a common denominator destructive issue. And just saying out loud for our churches, like if there's anything for us to wrestle with, and spiritually combat, like, this is the thing to spotlight because it's doing the single most amount of damage across the board.

Caryn Rivadeneira  37:30  
And it's so prevalent. It is, I mean, it's the statistics are horrifying.

Gregg DeMey  37:34  
Yeah. And culturally, I mean, my read is culture is now at a total, almost total level of acceptance with this, like, to the point where, like, you can ask somebody in a coffee shop, like, like, what's your favorite kind of porn? And like, Jennifer's looks appalled. Like, I've heard people

Jennifer Stolzenbach  37:53  
say, ask if I want, or no phone.

Gregg DeMey  37:56  
All I'm saying is like, if you're not a follower of Jesus, I think it's a safe assumption that like, safe just like, everybody is like, using porn in some kind of way. And as a follower of Jesus, I'm appalled by that idea. And again, the report is very insightful, in terms of all the negative consequences, Fallout, covenant breaking negative biological impacts, from physiological to neurological, like, it's hard to find, like even a hint of something that's redemptive, related to even casual pornography use. So if you're listening to this, please hear this loud and clear. And I not that I wish we could talk about pornography, but you know, forever, but just that with a unanimous, resounding voice, and then with some tears and repentance from some members on the floor of Synod for past and present failings along these lines, like we want to communicate this message to the churches and this was one way for us to be countercultural, and against the grain of being like Nope, we want to be the community where real people are trying to live faithfully with real people and yeah, not indulge our basic baser impulses or seek pleasure for the sake of seeking pleasure. So I can't say this strongly enough,

Jennifer Stolzenbach  39:31  
correct. Yeah. And I think, you know, like I said earlier, everybody comes to send it into life and a different place in perspective. And for sure, we are desensitized, even those of us who are shocked that Greg gets asked these questions. Does he get asked these? But seriously, you know, I came to it as a parent. That's my primary career role. right now and to be thankful that our congregation and even our church, you know, our elders have spent several months in particular focused on that topic of pornography. And I think that communicates to me as a mom, and maybe I see it a little more because I am, you know, a deacon and I know that the work that the that the elders are, are doing, but just that our church family, and you know, to bring it back here, and our community is very aware of this and working to not only discern, discern, but to address it in a respectful way, because it is prevalent, and, yeah, for sure. There are people here that

Gregg DeMey  40:48  
struggle, yeah, anyway, so obviously, on a Sunday morning, like, there's four year olds in our sanctuary, there's 84 year olds in our sanctuary. So pastorally, it's a challenge to address some of these topics in a way that's age appropriate all the way across the board. However, again, because of online usage, I mean, I think the average American kid like is exposed to pornography, like somewhere between age eight and nine, at this point. So it's just not an option not to talk about it regularly, even in the sanctuary. On a Sunday morning worship service, like as a matter of prayer, or acknowledgement, or seeking healing and redemption and forgiveness for so many folks in

Caryn Rivadeneira  41:29  
our midst. I mean, the numbers are, I think, among Christians, it is, I think, higher for men, but you know, it's about 60% of Christians are viewing porn. Now. Again, I try to recognize I've brought this out even at the deacons meeting, like I feel bad because sometimes, you know, you're watching, you know, Netflix show, and I'll send a scene comes on I go, Oh, my goodness. So you talked about how the forebears would have, you know, reacted. There's stuff that we all see, just naturally, but I think this statistic is about people actually seeking out a specific website. But you know, the idea that it's 60% of the people sitting here are, you know, once a month, right, like that's, that's huge. And it's such an I don't know the word exploitative industry,

Gregg DeMey  42:06  
you know, if it was any kind of other form of behavior, right? That was murder, or 60% of us are in wrestling, you know, this week, like, clearly we would be addressing it.

Jennifer Stolzenbach  42:18  
Right, again, as a parent just looking to the church for guidance. And yeah, it's just you are you're sitting and you're watching Netflix and something like you want to get you can't grab the remote. Yeah, we look to the church for clarity and support. Yeah,

Gregg DeMey  42:36  
are these all right? Well, how about that word on Shasta? Yes.

Caryn Rivadeneira  42:39  
It's a good word, both chastity and untested, their old fashion but yet I think this report managed to bring it very current.

Gregg DeMey  42:50  
Yeah. So just to back it up. I mean, the the CRC is what's known as a confessional church that we consciously submit ourselves to the Bible first. As God's revealed Word to us, then to the worldwide Creed's second that have existed for pretty much the whole church history, I mean, seek to summarize the core tenants of biblical teaching. So the Apostles Creed, Nicene Creed, Athanasian Creed. And then beneath that, we have what are called Three reformed confessions, the canons of door the Belgic confession, the Heidelberg Catechism if you've been through a new members class recently, do a deep dive into those things. But Heidelberg Catechism question 107 and 108 have to deal with the Seventh Commandment. So part of the part of the Catechism walks through the 10 commandments. And what really is God saying to us as people the Catechism is contending with? What is he revealing to us about how to gratefully live our lives toward him. And the seventh commandment is do not commit adultery. And Jesus famously said to a group I'm thinking primarily of guys, like, hey, you've heard the commandment do not commit adultery, but I tell you, whoever works at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery. So Jesus, we can blame him like expands the seventh commandment from just like the outnet act of adultery to broaden the definition to the informative posture or misuse of the gift of sexual energy. So the I would say the Catechism following Jesus expanded definition, like takes it in the direction of like, yeah, for sure. Like if you cheat on your spouse, that's breaking the Seventh Commandment but so are acts of sex outside of marriage in any way, shape, or form or to paraphrase a little bit acts of rape or sexual violence. So, Senate this year, and again because because this word on chastity or what its definition might encompass is becoming fast redefined in our cultural experience. Senate passed this sentence, and in doing so is not trying to create a new definition but recognize what unshare study has meant for the last 400 plus years. So here's the sentence that unshare study in Heidelberg Catechism Question and Answer num. Number 108 encompasses adultery, Seventh Commandment, premarital sex, extramarital sex, sexual violence within and outside of covenantal male marriage, polyamory, pornography, and homosexual sex all of which violate the Seventh Commandment. So I would say big biggest struggle in our culture would be probably the last three, that same sex sexual activity in our denomination as we're 50 years differentiated between same sex orientation, not inherently sinful and same sex sexual activity. One of the acts encompassed by an chastity so culturally, we struggle with that. Increasingly, we're going to struggle with polyamory. Because we're now our cultural conversations like, hey, if it's consenting adults, it's in bounds. And I can't think of a good reason that, like, if that's our cultural agreement, why if you have three or more consenting adults, why that should be out of bounds. And then pornography, which we already touched on a little bit, like like, hey, if it's just you in the privacy of your own home, then like, who am I to judge? Or why would that be immoral in any way, shape or form? Right? So I would say this sentence is historically, pretty accurate. Like, if we went back 100 years or 300 years, like, the vast majority of Christians would agree, like, yeah, of course, all these things like are encompassed by a JSP. But there's several aspects of it, that are culturally offensive. Right now, and probably the leading one, especially now that in North America, the United States, and Canada has laws honoring same sex marriage commitments. That same sex sexual activity would be encompassed. Under on chastity,

Caryn Rivadeneira  47:34  
ya know, for sure, I mean, that that's, I think, the tough one for people, you know, to, to come to terms with so how, how did I don't know why this is too big of a question, but because it does seem like there's a difference between, you know, saying that even even sex between two same sex people within a covenant with in a marriage feels different. I feel like most people then just, you know, do people out having random sex fornication as the old fashioned word, I guess. So, I guess how, how did that? How does our denomination then not see those as different? Or why we just how did that come to be? I guess?

Gregg DeMey  48:15  
Not sure exactly what you're asking. But I'll say I'll say I'll say a little more. So number one, I don't think there was any desire on behalf of Senate to start a movement to change the laws of the United States or Canada, right? Like, in general. And I would say, My personal opinion is like I'm happy to live in 2022 were to same sex attracted, partners can enjoy all the societal and legal rights and privileges, especially if you're living a lifelong, faithful relationship with one another. At the same time, I recognize that as a Christian person, that the sexual behavior itself even though like promises exchange between two people are ennobling that that sexual activity has been and now we're still on record to say like this, these particular sexual acts are immoral.

Caryn Rivadeneira  49:12  
And that's that's based you should say on their scripture passages, right? The sort of person based on the Bible, you're coming at that from that that's where the different sorry if you answered my question beautifully, even though I didn't ask it beautifully, thank you.

Gregg DeMey  49:28  
Yeah, so I've had fine Christian people say things to me, like the Bible says so clearly, I almost wish the Bible didn't say that, which is a kind of a lovely way of expressing the tension. And, I mean, on committee number eight, not to mention anybody's names in particular, but I mean, there are there were same sex attracted. People, like sitting on committee with us who 100% endorsed this language. have chosen to live their lives as out in the open, same sex attracted people, but intentionally celibate for Jesus sake, kind of people. And kind of going through these discussions. I mean, sitting side by side and shoulder to shoulder. I mean, it's, it's fascinating because from one side, sometimes there's very harsh language from the conservative point of view, that's kind of like our culture is going to hell in a handbasket, which is hard for them to receive the tone of it, even though they might agree positionally. Like with the area where it's coming from, at the same time, it's a it's equally if not more difficult to hear progressive voices saying like, your interpretation of the Bible, same sex celibate person is actually wrong. And you're kind of naive and living your life in a way that like probably is off target, because this will like would not even be a problem. And you think Jesus is calling you to this, but like, we're sensing like, the Holy Spirit won't do that anymore. So like, that's tough. Right to be have to be that person kind of getting, to know, almost corrected, right from from both sides.

Caryn Rivadeneira  51:18  
Certainly. And I probably haven't heard as much of that language like we're if someone chooses to be celibate. I don't I guess maybe there's there's mocking of that, I get that. But I think we probably can all understand the tension, though, for people who are same sex attracted in a marriage, how hurtful this might hear it would be to hear, you know, I mean, it's or how difficult or if your family members are in this or you know, is people at church, we worry how this, you know, gets handled on a practical level.

Gregg DeMey  51:43  
So, again, what happened through Senate this year, I think in no way should compromise our hospitality, welcome flexibility with anybody who wants to worship seek the Lord of this participate in ministry. I mean, it's a high standard that is meant for mature Christians, and in particular, those who would be called to ordained ministry and bear one of the church offices. So if you're a 17 year old kid, and you're thinking or maybe same sex attracted, like, in my mind, this should have zero impact on your perception of like the church's posture towards you, as an individual. So we talked about this very clearly in committee and to a lesser degree on the floor of Synod like what we're being called to is a division of increased and radical hospitality toward all people who come seeking the Lord. And we have a lot to do to grow and improve on that. Like, that would be a great thing to spotlight for quite a while to, on the other side of the spiritual growth continuum, we're being called to a cross cultural radical standard of obedience and discipleship, like not just in sexual activity in all areas of life, but this included and then between those two poles is a lot of room. And how various congregations or parts of the country or continents are going to shepherd disciple, the timeline that we give that people experience for acceptance, or change, like it's going to be radically different. Like said, it's not sent his job to like, create the cookie cutter, like, Hey, you're in a same sex marriage, and you came to a Christian Reformed Church, you have three years now, the clock's ticking for, like some decision to be made, like, none of that. Right.

Caryn Rivadeneira  53:41  
Okay, well, that sort of, I feel like leads must segue, I was gonna say that feels like that segues into the committee. Not that the other part of your committee wasn't interesting. But perhaps the second going back to committee number going back to committee number two, so

Jennifer Stolzenbach  53:54  
yes, so our task, our second primary task on committee two was to look at an overture that was in risk. I'm going to maybe read a little bit of it, so I get it right. response to actions taken by Kneeland Avenue CRC, which is a church in Grand Rapids East classes. Grand Rapids, never heard of it. Never. That's right. So the committee, we I'm going to read this again, when Kneeland CRC ordained a person in a same sex marriage, it acted outside of the bounds of past fanatical decisions, procedures, and guidance, and the crcna interpretation of the Scripture as it relates to same sex marriage, and in doing so, has broken covenant with fellow churches. Our unity is based on bearing one another's burdens together, and acting apart from this covenant is a violation of our sacred, sacred trust and it hurts us all. So our task was not

Caryn Rivadeneira  54:58  
just backup well quickly so about two years ago Nealon Avenue Christian Reformed Church,

Jennifer Stolzenbach  55:05  
ordained, ordained a deacon with Deacon that is

Caryn Rivadeneira  55:09  
a marriage. Yes.

Jennifer Stolzenbach  55:12  
Yeah, thank you. So that makes gives a little context. And so our purpose was not to punish Kneeland Avenue CRC, but to reconcile and have restoration. And to. Yeah,

Gregg DeMey  55:29  
I just want to make super clear that committee number two handled this as a church order question, and not as a question of morality.

Jennifer Stolzenbach  55:38  
Right. Right. And that is our action was not to take action or to right, determine the bigger question, but what to decide if they had followed due process and follow the church order for

Caryn Rivadeneira  55:56  
make his right now that CRC, you cannot, as you indicated, you cannot be married in same sex as an Office, Office bearer or or an artist or an elder deacon or pastor.

Jennifer Stolzenbach  56:08  
Right. Right. And so our task was to determine what if they had violated which you just said, was this that an office bearer cannot be same sex married, and how they did that, and then to make recommendations to Senate for how to respond to that. So I, I, I probably won't go into reading all of those. But other just to kind of summarize and say that, that convert out of that, we recognize that the conversation is just beginning with them with the Kneeland Avenue. And for sure, it goes along with the various things in the HSR, the human sexuality report. Interestingly, we were working simultaneously as committee eight so we went into it not knowing what recommendations would come out of committee eight, and that kind of just added another dimension, another layer to our task and decision making. But in the end, there will be a committee formed to work with classes Grand Rapids EES and Kneeland CRC to walk through that process.

Caryn Rivadeneira  57:22  
The stake in though still a deacon, not a deacon, I hear conflicting reports still. Yeah, still, for sure. Still today,

Gregg DeMey  57:28  
for sure somebody can so yeah, I do want to recognize like, there's a whole range of options at Synod could have kind of responded with to the conclusion that in fact, Kneeland has acted out of church order. And yeah, I would say sort of, didn't do their due diligence and communicating widely or making the case why this was the right thing at the right time, and how taking this decision is actually in keeping good faith rather than breaking faith. So that can still happen, like not now. However, Senate did not like kick Nealon out of the denomination did not like unseat their delegates did not formerly air quotes here, censure Kneeland but as asking Kneeland like, hey, now's the moment to please resend this decision, get back in good faith with everybody. And then start making the case. If you want to make the case why this is Biblically sound, why it's keeping good faith and community with churches that may not be in agreement with us. So how this plays out? We're only at the very beginning. Yeah.

Caryn Rivadeneira  58:40  
Yeah, I have a million other questions, but we are pushing into an hour and probably I'll get myself in trouble if I start asking some of this. No, but it is fascinating. And you know, you read about a little bit about this woman and how she just people in the congregation had sensed a deep spirituality that you're now at this calling, she was, you know, a big vote getter, I guess in your nomination get her and I recognize her recognize

Jennifer Stolzenbach  59:02  
that Nealon Avenue really was just trying to minister to a group of people in their church. And that that can I

Caryn Rivadeneira  59:11  
think it sounds like recognizing a calling of someone so I feel like these are or maybe again, I'm I'm waiting banner articles.

Gregg DeMey  59:18  
From No, right. So if you're if you're a same sex attractive person listening to this podcast, I would say from the CRCS perspective, there's nothing that would want to diminish your spiritual giftedness or your potential to serve or minister in Jesus name. And there's a ton of service and leadership and ministry that happens outside of the ordained offices of the church. Right. And I would say we have people around here who have never served as an elder and Deacon who have been our best exemplars of serving in Jesus name. So for some people, being ordained is part of the journey for others. It's not. So it's the stance Have the CRC, however, that if you are same sex attracted, and same sex active, the ordained offices are not on the table for you. Which is not to say that you are not spiritually gifted and called and equipped to do amazing things in Jesus name.

Caryn Rivadeneira  1:00:17  
You should include I mean, from my understanding of the human sexuality report that you talked a lot about porn if you are viewing porn, frequently ordained offices. You're so that is, that is the comprehensive nature, I think of the report that's important to do and for people to recognize to again,

Gregg DeMey  1:00:34  
yeah, and senate did not get into the nitty gritty and I don't think, you know, wants to start like, sexual activity examination committee or vetting process, but it is relying on, you know, all of us as individuals, to be honest, and appropriately transparent about the health of all aspects of our lives. And if there's something sexual or otherwise that would interfere or compromise or, you know, is a willful and unrepentant those key words willful and unrepentant. pattern in our lives, then, yeah, that that compromises your ability to step into one of the ordained offices for sure.

Caryn Rivadeneira  1:01:24  
So it sounds like from both of you, and again, this is where, you know, I think interesting things start happening, but I've kind of heard from both and from different places like it's this is just the beginning, the conversation is sort of only starting where it seems like in some ways, it's like boom, this you know, rubber stamp move on it feels like it's the end but I guess a couple questions about that. What it for the people who are listening or who were in our congregation, what if there are people who disagree with where the were scented, landed on this issue? What what what, what is what

Gregg DeMey  1:01:58  
were those definition of chastity in particular? Yes, that's that's the part that's

Caryn Rivadeneira  1:02:02  
for sure. I would say that the people particularly who I think that there's a number of people, again, we are people of our culture, we live in a urban area, where we say, hey, my, my friends, my family members who are in a same sex marriage, they they just are going to wrestle with seeing this as unchaste living How is there room I guess, to disagree in our church, is my question for you.

Jennifer Stolzenbach  1:02:26  
Can you get that done? And can we get that quick 90 seconds.

Gregg DeMey  1:02:29  
So I would want to start with saying like, as a CRC as Elmhurst CRC in general, like we're a church that's committed to radical hospitality, and welcome for all human beings. Like, I want to say that first, and we could hang out there for a long time, and I'd prefer to hang out there. We're a church where same sex attracted people attend for sure where trans people attend, where if you come honestly seeking a lord, like Lord willing, we're becoming more and more a place. Like we want to walk alongside everybody recognizing that growing toward the Lord is a lifelong journey. I want to say like, we're a church that hasn't done a perfect job. We're repenting, we're growing, we're trying to embrace that calling. And we're a church that on the opposite end is holding this like historic, like very high standard of biblical vision of morality in general and, and sexual morality in particular. But I'd rather say all those other things first.

Jennifer Stolzenbach  1:03:32  
Right. And for sure, I think the tone at Synod was kind of what you just said. We are sorry. We're listening. And we're learning. And it's, you know, it is just the beginning of a conversation.

Gregg DeMey  1:03:49  
But time will tell in a bi-national denomination, whether we're gonna drop factions and start shooting stuff at each other, or whether everybody has the desire and grace to like, talk and wrestle. I mean, it was said very clearly, about Neeland, toward Neeland, you're part of us. Were part of you were in this together. There were several key moments where some I would say some more graceless sort of things are possibilities were put forward. And those were immediately resisted and tamped down. So in the short term, or at least in terms of the spirit of Synod 2022 This more judgmental or graceless or now the conversation is over and where he just slammed the doors behind is like, that didn't happen. Like and there were several.

Jennifer Stolzenbach  1:04:37  
Well, yeah, but it was I would say by and large reconciliation with the the intent and restoration, like you said, Not that they're with me.

Caryn Rivadeneira  1:04:48  
Right. Yeah, right. Yeah. Yeah, no, that's, that's super helpful.

Jennifer Stolzenbach  1:04:54  
You know, time will tell but hopefully it was received that way. At Neeland, and in particular, the deacon I know for sure. Personally, you know, it's it's really hard to sit there as a fellow Deacon and yeah, we we empathize wisher with her too. And that's not even a strong enough word, but and their church for the things that they need to that they will need to address and talk about. Yeah, I don't know.

Caryn Rivadeneira  1:05:25  
I love it. Well, I think probably the greatest strength of Christian Reformed churches, it's, I've always said this. It's a thinking church. It's a questioning church. It's a very intellectual, right. And maybe that's the greatest weakness. There's so much thinking in wrestling, but I do. Yeah, I know that this stuff has been thought about carefully and studied. And it's good to know that we can keep praying about it. I loved your line, Jennifer, though, that we're sorry. We're listening. We're learning. I think that's a really good posture, just in general, probably on every issue in the church. It's beautiful.

Gregg DeMey  1:05:59  
And we're sticking with the Bible, though.

Caryn Rivadeneira  1:06:01  
No, that's how things change

Gregg DeMey  1:06:02  
in the Christian Reformed Church, like you need to make a strong, biblical case. And clearly, like a ton of change has happened in the last 400 years. Not just because culture has changed, but because the Holy Spirit is at work. And not that the Bible has changed, but as we grow together as a people sometimes like our insight, and our understanding of what God is actually saying, like becomes more clear. Yeah, right. So we stand at a crossroads, I think of hopefully having a really honest conversation about what the Bible says about human sexuality,

Caryn Rivadeneira  1:06:37  
for sure. And I wasn't implying that like Trump's like, the cross of Christ, or no, no, I just I think that's a lovely posture, though, just in general, as Christians or whatever to just be willing to do that. And indeed seek what what God is doing and

Gregg DeMey  1:06:50  
love it. Well, hey, we are an hour and six minutes into this Synod pod. If you have made it this far, I would like to make the case that you have an extra jewel in your heavenly crown. Anything you want to say in conclusion cards sum this up? No.

Caryn Rivadeneira  1:07:08  
Oh, my goodness. I don't even know. But I'm glad that you guys talked about this and that you went to certain Senate that you were there and you're willing to share and I'm sure there'll be a million more questions coming.

Gregg DeMey  1:07:18  
All right. I'm signing up for Synod 2023 How about you Jennifer,

Jennifer Stolzenbach  1:07:22  
you have fun with my timesheet?

Caryn Rivadeneira  1:07:26  
free coffees.

Gregg DeMey  1:07:29  
Amazing. Thanks for hanging out with us.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai