Acts 9 - Better Call...

Summary
On this week's podcast,  Gregg DeMey (Lead Pastor),  Jeff Klein (Pastor of Outreach), and Caryn Rivadeneira (Director of Care) wade right into Acts 9. its blinding lights, scaly eyes, dare-devil escapes, and more dramatic healings. And we wonder: why don't we have this kind of excitement in the church today -- or do we?

Today's Hosts
Gregg DeMey, Lead Pastor
Jeff Klein, Pastor of Outreach
Caryn Rivadeneira, Director of Care

Questions/Comments:  We'd love to hear from you! Email ASK. 

Note: Wade in the Word is a weekly podcast designed to take a deep dive into scripture for the weekend message. Join our pastors, staff, and occasional special guests as we reflect together.

Wade in the Word podcast is a production of Elmhurst Christian Reformed Church, located in Elmhurst, IL. Wade in the Word is produced and audio-engineered by Kyle Olson, Technical Director. For more information about Elmhurst CRC or to find out about other tools and resources to grow you and your family in faith, visit elmhurstcrc.org.

Transcript

SUMMARY KEYWORDS
jesus, people, saul, paul, god, life, church, disciples, damascus, lord, healing, peter, anand, person, read, chapter, suffering, grace, moment, jerusalem

SPEAKERS
Caryn Rivadeneira, Gregg DeMey, Jeffrey Klein

Gregg DeMey  0:04  
Hey, welcome friends to the latest installment of the Elmhurst CRC Wade in the word podcast. We're going to dive deep into Acts chapter nine today pretty awesome chapter spotlight is going to turn on to a guy named Saul gets a new name a little later on, but pretty transformative chapter. I'm sitting here with Caryn Rivadeneira, our Director of Care at church.  

Caryn Rivadeneira  0:27  
Hello, hello, 

Gregg DeMey  0:28  
and the Reverend Jeffrey Klein.

Jeffrey Klein  0:31  
 Good morning. Good morning. Good to be here.

Gregg DeMey  0:35  
Awesome. So one of the curious things is that Luke and Paul for sure would have been, you know, like, friends, collaborators, gospel adventurers for much of their adult lives. And when Luke describes Saul, and what he was like, as a pre-Christian,, he doesn't pull any punches. He doesn't offer any defenses. It's just this unvarnished,

horrible picture of this guy saw and Paul later to his credit, I mean, he doesn't do any defense maneuvers either. When he describes his pre-Christian itself, he pretty much owns up to Yeah, pretty much I'm the worst of sinners as just totally the worst.

Jeffrey Klein  1:19  
It was pretty bad. So, yeah, it's true. There's not that's what I love about the Bible. It's not like

I ever tried to coat these people up and make them you know, if the Bible is really fake, then I think it would be trying to code everybody up and make them sound way better than they really are.

Caryn Rivadeneira  1:36  
Yeah, well, and I think I mean, the story that we're about to read is a lot more powerful. I think knowing that he was a horrible person, if he was like a regular good guy and had this, I think we'd be like, okay, that's normal. But it's the fact that he was.

Gregg DeMey  1:49  
Yeah, I think folks who maybe haven't read the Bible or haven't spent much time in the church think that the characters in the Bible probably are like this pristine set of, saintly statues or pristine figurines that we all hold up and are trying to emulate. Nothing could be further from the truth like pretty much every single person except for Jesus in the Bible has either a pretty horrible history or like a fatal flaw or something that is just, there's a lot of people we dealt with. 

Jeffrey Klein  2:17  
There's a lot of butts in the Old Testament, like, yeah, you know, it says this person was, but and there's always been a lot of bucks. I didn't mean it's a lot of fun. 

Gregg DeMey  2:26  
There are gonna be our new podcast, I think big butts. So the Bible,

all those crucial moments where it hinges, I mean, King's Book of Kings, I think of all the time like there's always this king did this, this, but yeah, and then there's this lady, right?

Caryn Rivadeneira  2:44  
They were righteous in the eyes of the Lord until Yeah.

Gregg DeMey  2:48  
Wow, there's just a long alley of humor. He could go down in this one, but probably ought not to do it at this point.

Let's instead launch into Acts chapter nine, and currently, it'll lead us off. I think we'll read the first nine verses or so.

Caryn Rivadeneira  3:04  
Alright, sounds good. Meanwhile, Saul was still breathing out murderous threats against the Lord's disciples. He went to the high priest and asked him for letters to the synagogues and Damascus, so that if he found anyone there who belonged to the way whether man or woman, he might take them as prisoners to Jerusalem. As he neared Damascus on his journey, suddenly, a light from heaven flashed around him, he fell to the ground and heard a voice say to him,

Jeffrey Klein  3:30  
Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me? Who are you, Lord? Saul asked, I am Jesus whom you are persecuting, he replied, now get up and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do.

Gregg DeMey  3:46  
Now the men traveling with Saul stood there speechless. They heard the sound but did not see anyone and saw God up from the ground, but when he opened his eyes, he could see nothing. So they let him by the hand into Damascus. And for three days, Saul was blind, he did not eat or drink anything.

So while this is one of the

just epic moments

in biblical history, like really the original

maybe we even say of this phrase, Damascus Road experience like this, is it or in even in common culture, like the come to Jesus moment? Yeah, I think like it. This is coming back to this is kind of the originator of all of that. So just a couple of details before we get slightly deeper. So one is that it's really surprising to me what Jesus says to Saul in this is in the New Testament, kind of the last like post-resurrection appearance that anyone like, season. Here's

the reason Jesus like personally, and

when, when Saul asked Who are you Lord Jesus

His answers. I'm Jesus who you are persecuting.

So just that to me surprising thing that he's not like, hey, you're persecuting my church, you're persecuting my people. Like, Jesus in this reply says something very significant equating his disciples, his followers, the real church with himself. You're persecuting me, huh? 

Jeffrey Klein  5:24  
Yeah, I mean, the fact that Jesus, I guess lives inside. Like, that's how he lives his his church, his body has become literally this real person that now he lives inside of. So when you're persecuting one of those people, you're persecuting Jesus Himself, which is a crazy thought. 

Caryn Rivadeneira  5:41  
Yeah, well, I mean, it's like, however you treat the least of these. It's that sort of language to of how you treat others is how you treat Jesus. So it is this. I mean, for us, I think it's pretty humbling. I mean, the whole idea of, that's what we're supposed to be and how people are supposed to see Jesus in us. So it's like, how we treat people as maybe how they're going to know Jesus experienced Jesus.

Gregg DeMey  6:01  
And so we're, we're all paid employees and servants of the church. If we complain about our job, or we persecuting Jesus.

Jeffrey Klein  6:10  
Yeah.

Caryn Rivadeneira  6:13  
Yeah, no, I mean, that's an interesting question. 

Jeffrey Klein  6:16  
Or maybe if we complain about the people that are part of our job, are we persecuting Jesus? 

Gregg DeMey  6:20  
Right, right. Because, yeah, so there's this paradox here that obviously the church is in perfect, full of imperfect people organizationally, imperfect, there's no perfect pastor or a staff person. So like, for any of us to take this personally, like, No, you can't criticize me that's like, criticizing Jesus, like that would be full of nonsense, right? I'm remembering Dr. Fauci. Like when he got personal criticism being like, you can't criticize science. Like,

like, I don't know that that's how the equation works. Great.

On the other hand, like, there are times I feel like when we resist, like the church, when it's doing things in Jesus name, or healthy or good things in Jesus name where, like, possibly our lack of gratitude toward the church, or for what the Holy Spirit is genuinely inspiring our congregation or larger, like global movement, to do where rightly, maybe Jesus would want to whisper to us like, why are you resisting to me? Like, why are you putting up such a fight?

Jeffrey Klein  7:27  
I think the challenge there, though, is determining, you know, in this case, Jesus is giving specific instructions to these disciples. The question is, in the modern-day church, are we always acting on specific instructions from Jesus, the head of the church? Are we acting out of all kinds of instructions? And that's where it gets dicey. Because you have to have this kind of discernment like, hmm, is that church doing the things Jesus would do? Is that church, believing things Jesus, I believe, is that and it's a difficult thing to discern as a human? Right, you're trying to trust the Holy Spirit in you to make these discerning calls?

Caryn Rivadeneira  8:01  
Well, and I think it's important, I mean, before we kind of set Saul up, as you know, a pretty bad guy.

But in Saul's mind, I mean, obviously, I don't think killing people is ever appropriate for an upstanding Jewish man. But in his mind, he was defending God. He was he was, right. I mean, he was upholding the law. These people weren't like cult members, they were, you know, deviants that were causing damage. And so that, to me, is what's interesting, too, is that probably he thought he was very in tune right with, right with God and what he was supposed to be doing. And so Jesus kind of entering into that. 

Gregg DeMey  8:37  
Yeah, for sure. For Saul, the Pharisee, he was very clear that he was defending 1000 plus years of Jewish tradition and upholding the law. Right? Absolutely. Yeah. So

the early Christians are mentioned as followers of the way numerous times and that phrase comes up against herein

verse two or three, I think

that in Damascus, Saul was looking for any, any of those who are followers of the way. And I don't know that it's really clear when early Christians kind of when that name sort of fell off.

Jeffrey Klein  9:17  
Yeah, I always wondered if it was something to do with keeping themselves because of the persecution more like secretive by calling themselves the way you've heard the story, you know, the fish symbol. I was told it now again, whether this is true or not, and Israel is told, well, if you came up to another person, you wanted to determine whether they were part of the way or they believe what you believe you would make half the fish symbol in the sand with your foot. If they finished the symbol right then, oh, okay, we can talk about Jesus, we're open, right? So. So I wonder if this way, the way it was a name they adapted, so that wouldn't be specific, you know, connected to Christ or whatever. So they could maybe, and then, you know, Paul, or whoever the Pharisees figured out they're calling themselves the way obviously it's also connect

to Jesus saying I am the way. Right there must be some connection there. But I don't know all the Yeah, know for sure Jesus, I mean identifying as the way the truth in life. And

Gregg DeMey  10:12  
I think it's john chapter 14, like Jesus is talking to his disciples and says, you know, I'm going head of you in my father's house, there are many rooms, I'm going to prepare a place for you. And if I go there to do this in advance, I'm going to bring you to be with me. And his last line is, and you know, the way and I think what he's saying is not like, Hey, you know how the next 10 years of your life are going to go? You know, exactly, you know, what the marching orders are. It's like, he's identifying himself as the way it's like, you know, me, right, 

Jeffrey Klein  10:43  
right, which is the way 

Caryn Rivadeneira  10:46  
Yeah, again, I mean, they were still Jewish. So they still like that was that's the part that's interesting to me, because Jesus, himself was a practicing Jew until the very end always was so I just sort of seeing it as like, maybe just the way like, it's sort of like they saw it as like a denomination or something. So the idea of being fully like identifying as a Christian

Yeah, that seems very that's,

Gregg DeMey  11:11  
 I do wonder if there's a little something like,

like, it doesn't connote a little bit of superiority like because there's one way so it's saying like, like not in a triumph holistic or looking down on people sort of thing but Jesus, I mean, causes path the narrow way. Yeah, to write.

Jeffrey Klein  11:31  
 I mean, if you think about later and X, I think it's later it's like chapter 11. Or something maybe where they it says right in there, the first time they were called Christians is in the city of Antioch. So they haven't been called Christians yet. So maybe this is the name they adopted. Were the way you know, the way of Jesus branding people were like, that's not that's

Gregg DeMey  11:52  
they hadn't hired the branding people yet. Actually, Christians were kind of derogatory or tongue-in-cheek slight. Right. So somehow, they identified themselves like this. But I do think that thing about Paul's passion, I was reading Galatians one he talks about, I had more zeal than any of the other Pharisees, like I was so zealous for this Jewish way of life, right, which is what drove him to do these crazy things, you know, overseeing Steven stoning which, of course, he would have thought, Oh, this is how you treat heretics you stone them. So this is perfect it within the law to take this gap. And now to be dragging people off the prison and saying, we gotta shut this down, right? Yeah. So

now that we can possibly accurately speculate about the motivations and God's heart, but I would just recognize that with most people, God typically takes some time in a process of life events to kind of woo them onto the way or to surrender to Jesus. And with Saul. This happens. There are no God fast tracks. Right?

Jeffrey Klein  13:00  
Well, maybe he's a hearted I mean, camileo was his

mentor, teacher, Rabbi, whatever. And chameleon given this advice and x five, we should leave this alone. Because if it's up, the Lord is going to not you're not gonna beat anyone if it's not the Lord. Oh, just go away. And it Paul obviously is like, yeah, I'm not listening to that. I'm taking people out. Right, right. So yeah, that's fascinating. So it's kind of fascinating that it took maybe Paul getting knocked off a donkey and the appearance of Jesus to wake him up to make him realize, Oh, my goodness.

Gregg DeMey  13:31  
So I think maybe that's a factor like Paul's personality. But also, like, here we are. 2000 years later, still talking about this story. So the fact that God, this wasn't just about saw, like the ripples in the pond of human history and Christian spirituality is epically big because of this moment. 

Caryn Rivadeneira  13:50  
Yeah, I love it. Because obviously, he's a super, super smart guy, you know, probably genius level, I would, I would assume, and, you know, knows everything. Super faithful. I was telling you guys the other day, I was reading something about how probably during this journey, because of how old Saul was, he would have been, you know, kind of in a constant state of prayer as well, kind of fueling himself up, because that was part of his thing. And so just the idea that like, Jesus would break into that to like, cut through that, like, it's not just all about the knowledge you have up here, but even use the thing that if he was on that donkey deep in prayer, that sort of breaking into that moment of like, Alright, let's, that makes me good. 

Jeffrey Klein  14:28  
You know, sometimes it makes you nervous to think about this story, because you think well, right. Most of us in the church, think we know it all. We got it all figured out. We're deeply in prayer. We've got our theology, we've learned it all. And we have the answers. We believe this is the way it is. I mean, it kind of makes you wonder, like, what if Jesus broke in, knock me out of my, you know, my Ford, and said, Hey, Jeff, Jeff, why are you doing this? Like, what are you thinking? Like, I wonder if that way? What do you would say to me?

I think all of us should ask ourselves the question like, what would you say to me about my beliefs

My certainties I've come to that I just know, right? This is the way it is, you know, he might go. 

Gregg DeMey  15:05  
Now. So interesting in the book of Acts, this, this moment is described in three different places here, next slide and also annex 22 and x 26, I think, and in one of them, then Paul quotes the voice of Jesus saying, Saul, Saul, why do you kick against the goads, which is like a spiked collar that a yoked animal would wear and like if the animal turns the wrong way, it's like, they get pain and pressure. So it's almost like Jesus saying, like, why are you trying to?

Like, push against God? Right in the wrong direction? Like, you should feel this by now. But you, like don't feel it? Yeah. So the other thing that occurs to me about this is like this is not only typically we think of this as a conversion moment, and for sure, that's a big part of what's happening here. But part of Jesus' agenda, God's agenda for Saul here is giving him a new calling for the rest of his life. So I think the importance of that and the scope of that maybe it's also part of why this goes down in such a,, dramatic and swift sort of way. 

Caryn Rivadeneira  16:20  
I think I mean, the the humbling factor of all of this as well, I just keep thinking about I mean, because our Saul, and then soon to be Paul's life from here on out, it's going to be markedly more difficult. I mean, it's just gonna be humiliation after you know, I mean, prison and difficulties and all these sorts of things, beatings.

And so I think it's sort of interesting that this is where it starts to, like knocking off the donkey and the, well, we'll get to the eyes and stuff, you know, the blindness, and I just, I feel like that's a really interesting thing. Because most of us, I don't think that we start out our ministry or our Christian walk in a state of humility, we don't want to do that. It's great if we choose to do it on our own. But I also think that God also is a fan of allowing us to be humbled and hopefully know that this drastically 

Gregg DeMey  17:07  
but sure, a slightly different angle is like, in a way, this is like a gift or a grace from God to Paul, that will be like an unending well, of spiritual energy and clarity. So we've probably all had, like the proverbial, you know, like retreat or mountaintop experience where you feel like the clouds part and you're really see your life clearly. And then, I mean, I've had a lot of those experiences. And typically, like a month later, I'm somewhere scratching my head down in the valley, like, Did that really happen? Because they were off doesn't it doesn't seem so. So I'm guessing because Paul writes about this in future letters in the New Testament, like, this never wore off for Paul. No. And like it was like God giving him like the energy bank when he's in prison when he's suffering when he's shipwrecked to have this.

I don't know, like deep and almost inescapable confidence. 

Jeffrey Klein  18:02  
But I think, you know, I think that's maybe sometimes what can be missing for some folks that go to church? Have they ever had an encounter with Jesus, so like, you know, Colorado challenge and talk about camp a lot, obviously. But I remember one year, my friend Scott Davis sent kids out with a light stick around their neck. So for 15 minutes of silence, you know, there was no gospel, there was no like, ultra causae just got in the woods for 15 minutes. And if you feel like Jesus speaks to you crack the light stick, and come back in. And so, you know, there's a hundred of kids, not everybody had this experience, but lots of kids heard Jesus speak to them. And they came back in and they could talk about what he said, what was going on what he said into their life, it was pretty spectacular to watch. So like, I think Jesus still is introducing himself to people. And I think a lot of times people sit in a church that maybe have never had an experience with the Lord light that I've gotten to camp and asked that question of kids. So how many of you go to church? How many of you actually think you've heard from the Lord met the Lord, seeing the Lord or had some experience of the Lord, and a lot of kids are like, I know I sit in church, but I don't really know that I've had that experience. So it'd be awesome. Not that you should go like Ronnie after this or like, give me Lord, I need to experience I need a miracle or I need something. But I do think the Lord is kind enough to show Himself to you. If that's what you need, you know, that's your desire. Yeah, we know God's track record is that he's eager to speak to us.

Gregg DeMey  19:33  
But he does not often although he does here with all that force himself. on us. That's true. I mean, one, one little detail. The story is like its a 150-mile donkey ride, right in Jerusalem, to Damascus, right? So like, you have a lot of time and space now that you're not joking around with your traveling companions, but there's going to be long moments of like, we can hardly imagine this as modern people like the days and days of travel.

between A and B, and the amount of

blank space and margin and, and like I think it's no accident that like God breaks through in the middle of this like long journey meaning to have an air-conditioned donkey, he could turn the

Caryn Rivadeneira  20:20  
we listen to his podcast and do his podcast, this podcast is cruising along that donkey-like I think, though I mean, like to your point about the camp experiences meaning Jesus, I mean that is so important. But I think this is also why I get very excited when people and this is terrible to say but when people are sort of in dark nights of the soul moment, or they are in these sort of pits because I think those are the moments to when just Jesus is waiting. They're just absolutely so present. And if you can open yourself up to that experience of Jesus with you, oh, God with you. To me, those are the most lasting and feeling things because when you've experienced that presence of God, like in the worst moment and carrying you through, yeah, sort of like this, like you were saying that spiritual energy, I mean, those are the moments that go back to far more than any mountaintop glorious. There is a God, you know, those kind of I mean, those are beautiful moments. But

that doesn't last as long as those you had that moment in Bible class, Caryn Bible class activity or show with your teacher, Jeff Klein, who was just every, every day, every day, I would come out weeping. I knew it.

Gregg DeMey  21:28  
Yeah, so this is, this is maybe a little where Sunday sermon, it's going but in reading this passage multiple times leading up to this week, just

if I could ask Saul the question prior to this, as he saw, what's the one thing that you would want to change about yourself? Like what he would have said, or like to modern American, if we ask people that question, hey, if you could, you know, change one thing about yourself? Like, I think most of us would give a very cosmetic or superficial answer, right? Like, oh, I would like fix my front teeth, or I'd be two inches taller, or you know, whatever.

But if we could, like turn that question to God, or like, have God answer that for us, or Hey, like, hey, God, what's like the main thing you're working on me? Right now, in this season of life? like God gave a very clear answer to saw right here, like the orientation of his life had to change. It's not that he was too zealous. It's not that he was too academic or too smart. It's like, No, he didn't get a new personality, probably a ton of his habits

that had led up to this moment like God used and leveraged like it for the future. But there was a huge thing that God needed to work on in Saul's life too.

Jeffrey Klein  22:53  
Yeah, to shift him. Yeah, shift. And that's going to be a different person to be someone who can use Jesus. I think that's important too. Because I think when people talk about born again, experiences and they say like, I'm a completely different person, I'm totally new. And we use that language all the time. I always think like, yes and no, like, You're new because you're forgiven, you understand grace, you might have this new focus. But I think it is important. Remember that God's still made us with our personality, with our gifts with our talent, and all of those

Caryn Rivadeneira  23:22  
are meant to be used and they are super useful. They continue to be in Paul's life. He doesn't lose his zeal or has those qualities remain. Some of them might get amplified as a result of this, you know, massive change. Yes.

Gregg DeMey  23:37  
All right. Well, let's push forward into the city of Damascus we get to meet one of the early Christians named Anand is as well. In Damascus, there was a disciple named Anand is the Lord called him in a vision and an is, Yes, Lord, He answered. The Lord told him to go to the house of Judas on Straight Street and asked for a man from Tarsus named Saul, for he is praying in a vision he has seen a man named Anand is come and place his hands on him to restore his sight.

Oh, Lord, and a nice answer. I have heard many reports about this man and all the harm he has done to your holy people in Jerusalem. And he's come here with authority from chief priests to arrest all who call on your name. But the Lord said Dan, and goes, this man is my chosen instrument to proclaim My name to the Gentiles and their kings and to the people of Israel. I will show him how much he must suffer for my name.

Caryn Rivadeneira  24:31  
Then Anand  went to the house and entered it in placing his hands on saw he said, Brother saw the Lord Jesus who appeared to you on the road as you are coming here has sent me so that you may see again, and be filled with the Holy Spirit. Immediately something like scales fell from Saul's eyes and he could see again, he got up and was baptized, and after taking some food, he regained his strength.

Gregg DeMey  25:00  
All right, so God continues his habit of giving some very clear directions to those who walk the way and follow Jesus' name.

Yeah, it's interesting to me that like to accomplish all of this and not only takes one vision, it takes double vision, right? It's like saga's one vision and and and is gets this super clear vision from God as well asking to do asking him to do something that otherwise would have been a no part of his daily or weekly agenda. 

Jeffrey Klein  25:29  
Yeah, I mean, Jesus, blinded saw on his own didn't need anyone's help. But now he's involving this intern is dude. So he's doing something right. Not only in Saul's life but also in AI is his life by sending him to be the one who goes in praise oversaw, which is a crazy thing how Jesus again, he's calling these guys in a partnership with him. And then an AI is one of those players, and he gets a really lousy assignment. I mean,

Caryn Rivadeneira  25:59  
person wants to kill you. They haven't come to your house.

Gregg DeMey  26:02  
 I didn't know it resulted in some epically good PR that has come down the halls of history.

Jeffrey Klein  26:08  
But I mean, it was what an assignment, right? You're, you've heard about this guy, and what he's doing to people that belong to the way and you're one of those people, and now you're sent to go and basically pray over him and speak with him about this way, then you're like, what, what 

Gregg DeMey  26:23  
I love that in and is like, is so free with God in the presence of God that he's able to put up this, like a wall of common sense resistance. Like, seriously good. Like, you know, he's killing people in Jerusalem, right?

Caryn Rivadeneira  26:38  
I know, I'll, I'm so glad that I got to read those verses, because it's just reminded me how, as a kid, this was probably one of my favorite passages. And I was kind of a creepy kid. But just so the idea of those scales falling off, I used to sort of be obsessed, it's very lizardy. You wonder, was it a lot of gunk was it scales? Like it's just such a, again, the writing and Book of Acts is so fantastic, that leaves us with these images.

Gregg DeMey  27:02  
So I mean, the thing that it doesn't allow for us that this was just a metaphorical spiritual experience, like, no, this was, like, for sure, a deeply spiritual experience, but with all kinds of physical manifestations as well.

Caryn Rivadeneira  27:17  
Right, like, as often happens, I mean, those two things definitely, you know, can go hand in hand completely, but it just I love that detail. I know maybe it's gross. But Exactly. It's like this was a real thing. Wonderful. Line is

Jeffrey Klein  27:29  
does it represent anything and solves the fact that he's struck wine is a kind of metaphorical thing. I feel like whenever Jesus heals blindness, that he heals more than just the physical blindness, he also heals spiritual blindness in a person.

Caryn Rivadeneira  27:46  
So this week, congregant actually forwarded me a passage from Oswald Chambers, my utmost for his highest, it was a lovely, lovely passage. But the important part was that chambers was saying God doesn't allow suffering to teach us things. God allows suffering so that we unlearn things. And that just like, hit me in a cool way. And somehow the blindness like just you saying that, like, maybe that's it? Maybe this is sort of like a

Gregg DeMey  28:12  
Yeah, would not Saul have said like, Lord Jesus, I've been blind to who you are.

Jeffrey Klein  28:17  
Well, that's it. Yeah, that's right. And so when the scales fall off of his eyes, it's not just the scales of physical blindness, the scales of theological blindness, follow away also, and he's immediately comes up and gets baptized. After he eats. First, he eats, which is right. Now he gets baptized the first day.

Gregg DeMey  28:38  
I mean, not only that, but Saul's whole conception of what obedience to God looked like is like he's patrolling the borders, trying to keep people right, or kick people out. Right, and the whole rest of his life. He's going to be doing exactly the opposite, inviting people into the family of God, rather than trying to patrol the fence and kick the outliers out.

Jeffrey Klein  29:03  
Yeah. I mean, it's amazing to me how often Paul writes about grace. That word does not appear in the book of Acts, or the Gospels. I don't think at least that I shouldn't. I shouldn't say that. I don't know. I've never studied every instance. But it seems like it's not a prevalent word in those books. But you get to Paul, and it's consistently constantly writing about the grace, he's received this unmerited favor from God to actually even be alive and now being used by him to spread this message about Jesus to all these people. So yeah, I mean, in some ways, he would understand that grace so much that he'd be super accepting of anyone he met, right, and super open to welcoming them in. So even that's a crazy change of heart, another set of scales that fell off his eyes because he thought it was this was about being exclusive, following the law being on the inside on the outside, not stepping out of that and now all of a sudden, he's like, Oh, no, everybody come on, and I think he's the one that argues that You know, we shouldn't put too many straps on the Gentiles when they come to believe in Jesus, we should keep it chill.

Gregg DeMey  30:06  
For sure, this is an extra 15. Yeah. And just think of the grace that Paul received. I mean from God but through and is like, clearly the dude didn't want to be there. And in a nice appears here only has one other mentioned in the Bible. I think Paul mentions him in his recount of this event in Acts chapter 22, as someone who is widely respected among the Jewish community, so here's a follower of Jesus, who, unlike Paul was able to kind of navigate between these two communities rather than violently attack. Right? Right one of them, right, and just that kindness and healing from God flows down to Saul, who was taking the unwise path. So just the whole, all the first steps in his journey with Christ are just like grace after grace, I mean, gods. And Enya says, I mean, he's able to, we'll find out later, like, meet with some of the early Christian leaders in Jerusalem, before too long. So just to build, build the bridge, maybe a little bit to our modern world, and get us in the shoes of Annanias. Just wondering if God has ever elbowed or whispered to you to do something kind or gracious, that really was for a jerky person don't have to name names. Or if you were the jerky person, and someone did something just amazingly out of the blue, you know, for you, possibly when you were misbehaving or, you know, better at her worst? Yes. And yes. That's how grace works both ways. Yes, yes.

Caryn Rivadeneira  31:49  
Yeah. And I think when you've experienced that grace on such a deep level, it does make it quote unquote, easier to show it to others. But certainly, there have been times where I've experienced that resistance of like, are you kidding me that, you know, I've been deeply wronged and now you're saying I should forgive them? Or I should go talk to them? Or, you know, yeah, just the human and may feels like you at least want to give it let them suffer a little and stew and be in your own. And that's just really what they've done. Look in the mirror.

Gregg DeMey  32:24  
Yeah. This is going back by a fair piece. But the year, Sarah and I were in Eastern Europe, I mean, we hung out with Christians, some who had been faithful for decades and decades. And then just as the communist governments fell and things kind of opened up. There's a bit of a like a spiritual rebirth, I mean, a whole cultural openness that was coming in the wave after the fall of tyrannical governments. What it detected there was this, I mean, like the amazing spirit of Christians that had just gotten crap, and persecution, and just shafted and robbed and things taken from them and life made so difficult in so many ways. And for the most part, I mean, especially amongst leaders, there was just this. We were called to be kind to the very people who were like, knocking on our door and squeezing us off of our farms and making life miserable for our children. So especially after like, decades of that kind of mistreatment, that that spirit of just total grace still existed like that. I'm getting a little weepy just like, like, remembering.

Jeffrey Klein  33:41  
It's astonishing when you read stories, the murders, you know, real murder stories, how often they mimic this, this spirit of Jesus, where they just are able to forgive the people that are killing them while it's going down. And they're not holding against them. I mean, that, you know, that would be super difficult. You know, my first impulse is to come out, you know, fighting, swinging, whatever, you know, you're gonna pick on me, I'm gonna take it back. And these folks are just like, Yeah, no, Jesus didn't defend himself. I'm just gonna, which is crazy.

Caryn Rivadeneira  34:14  
It is. I mean, I made out this may sound like a terrible thing to say, but I've experienced enough people in my life who do not show grace and do not forgive and are just experiences deep bitterness, and to see, I mean, it's so sad, and it's so horrible. But sometimes thinking about that way of life also helps us you know, I think, like, if the choice is holding on to justify hatred and deep bitterness, and never showing anyone, any forgiveness, like that, doesn't bode well. mentally, spiritually, physically. Any of those things too. So I think, yeah, it's like that remarkable grace that you see from people who have been, you know, treated so terribly and are able to forgive. And then people who've just had, you know, minor infractions or major and can't Forgive and just the difference in the life.

Gregg DeMey  35:03  
Yeah, bitterness and resentment are ugly words, and it doesn't take much to hang on to something. So I'm guessing for all of us, especially in the last year, there's just any number of things small, medium, and large that we could hang on to that would just like yanker trains? Sure. So I'm just thinking, so here's one, here's one of my confessions. So I'm out of state and go over to a house with some people that I know. And there's gonna be like 10, or 12 people in the house. And, you know, socially distance, this is kind of in the winter, kind of, in the height of, you know, COVID stuff. And a couple of people there were like, Greg, that guy from Chicago, he needs to be like, triple the distance and wear a mask, because like, none of the rest of us are from Chicago, and who knows what's going on there. Because there's a lot of people and that seems he's probably, he's infected. Could be, could be a little sess. So I learned, I learned of those, like, on my way over there. And I'm just recounting this because, this is something that I found tremendously annoying at the time. Because, like, I kept my distance. And I'm, like, you know, eager to see the people that I was going to be with. And I'm the one person in a very large room and space who's like, you're probably unclean, because you're from Chicago. And so, I'm saying this out loud, just to remember of like, like, I know, the two people whose suggestion this was, and I think I just need to let them off the hook of that, like, who knows, you know, what was behind that suggestion, or their own fears and anxieties that went into it? For sure. It was not about me personally. So it would be really foolish for me. Because probably sometime in the next year or two, I'll be in another big room with these same people and to like, let something as small as that, like, get in the way of whatever the possibility of a good conversation in the future.

Caryn Rivadeneira  37:17  
So I was just the opposite. I was that person. And when I was in my summer school intensive two weeks ago, I told a few of my classmates held the summer previous. I said, I honestly looked at all of you as just piles of germs who were there to infect me from your various dates. I didn't ask for forgiveness. just laughing but maybe I should. But that was I mean, yeah, it's like grace both ways. But I did feel bad that I was like, Oh, goodness, last time I was in your presence. I literally was like, What are germs? Are you going to give me from your because I was kind of being I think I was being like elitist or status, or whatever clients button is doing hard right now.

I'm just getting off COVID. 

Jeffrey Klein  37:54  
I just hug people in stores card and give really close to them and spread as much as I can.

Gregg DeMey  38:02  
So amazingly, what is surely one of the ways God looks at us is like he knows not only our hearts and souls and spirits, he knows our biology. He literally knows all of our germs. He knows we are a pile of germs. And he's with

us still and yet. He sticks with us. That's true. That's nice. That's true. That's a good prayer. Jesus, you know, my germs. You know what a pile Oh, yeah.

Jeffrey Klein  38:27  
Now turning this, do you find it all compelling, that when an AI is sent, he sent with this, like, prophetic word over Paul's life? that strikes me right? He says, I mean, I had to do this for my devotional. But I remember sitting in this thinking like, wow, this man is my chosen instrument to proclaim My name to the Gentiles, which of course has never really happened to this point, and their king's wall, and the people of Israel. So he's not going to just go to the Gentiles. He's also going to be in front of kings, which we do know later. And x, we see him in front of these rulers. And he's, you know, Herod Agrippa, says, Paul, you think I'm gonna become a Christian while you're talking to me? He didn't know. But he's so bold, that he's proclaiming he's in front of all these different people. I think he does. I don't know. He appeals to Caesar icymi eventually appears I think he's appeared before Caesar. Well, he

Gregg DeMey  39:16  
ends up in Rome. The Book of Acts doesn't

Jeffrey Klein  39:19  
doesn't tell us that. We don't know the end, right. He's he just changed the guards who is sharing his fake image being chained to this guy every day for eight hours. That sounds fun. And he's just talking to you about Jesus for eight hours. You're like, holy cow. It's quite a thing. So anyway, but yes, I love this, this prophetic word. I mean, most of us probably haven't had this direct, prophetic word over our lives that we actually know. This is what the Lord is giving you to do. Paul is given this very specific word through Anand is

Gregg DeMey  39:55  
Yep. Again, I think there's a lot of sustaining power and spiritual energy that would have come out of this. Because it's not like this happens tomorrow. No, in Paul's life, it's like it's gonna be years and years and years down the road. Because even though he's had this dramatic call and conversion like there's still a lot of formation and unlearning and reprogramming, that needs to happen in Paul's life to get him to that point. Yeah, when Anna Nyah says, brother saw, like, that is one of the great lines of the New Testament that comes out of a not Jesus person's mouth.

Caryn Rivadeneira  40:32  
Is it good? It is? Yeah, I mean, just going back to that prophetic word to I mean, it's just always we were talking earlier about the realness of the Bible. Universe 16 I will show him how much he must suffer for my name. We I mean, it's hard following Jesus you know, and we always think like it makes life better suited or whatever and it does in so many ways, but yet this is the prophetic word he gets you are my chosen one, you're going to do these great things. I'm going to show you how much you're going to suffer. And part of me wonders like was that for an Anya so that he was like, Oh, God, at least he'll suffer a little for like, I don't think so. But just this preparation I mean, it happens with Mary right when she you know, why am I not thinking of the prophets name now blessing Jesus in the temple, the sword will appear, Simeon Simeon and Simeon, you know, these just ideas that like, you are chosen, you are great, you're gonna have a hard time.

Jeffrey Klein  41:29  
I mean, if you write those go together, if you read descriptions of Paul that are in I don't know, I'm not sure what reading through him, but he talks about him being bent over bow-legged as he looks. I mean, people describe him as one who has been just beaten to a pulp. And he really was I mean, first Corinthians 11. He goes through this whole list of what happened to him. Yeah. Whipped last shipwreck. stoned. Right? Yeah. Without without. Without that, right. You know, like, it's just like, whoa. So any so yeah, this, this whole experience sustains him through a lot of chaos. We think we have chaos. And we have whatever little annoyances Paul's getting stoned. And remember that once that he goes into we need this all later. But yeah, it's stone, he gets back up and goes back.

Gregg DeMey  42:17  
Crazy. Amazing. Yeah. So yeah, so kind of the good news from Anand is is like, hey, you're going to be a witness. And God is going to lead us all your leadership and like learning and wisdom and communication and linguistic gifts, bad nose, you're going to suffer a lot. And I mean, surely the irony was not lost on the saw, like as the person who was bringing the suffering to the early Christians that now he was joining the company of the suffering in this moment. So also awesome is just like the power of prayer, like the Holy Spirit leads and I used to do this, and he prays and this dramatic result that God accomplishes, through the praying and laying on of hands once again.

Caryn Rivadeneira  43:02  
Yeah, I also I just, I love the language that the book of Acts uses that I feel like we are so uncomfortable with, you know, the idea that they received visions, you know, the next chapter or something, there's going to be trances. You know, these are things that, I think if I just suddenly said, Yeah, I was in a trance yesterday, and that, I feel like that's not biblical current, right. I feel like that would raise a lot of red flags. And so that's what I love about this book of just the way the Holy Spirit you know,

Jeffrey Klein  43:29  
yeah, I mean, the supernatural. Totally. The invisible world is entering the visible world and every page is its angels, its Holy Spirit, its voices, its visions, its trances. There's so you wonder like, Yeah, do we are just that unaware of the invisible world around us? That we don't really identify the things that happened to us as part of the invisible world entering the visible world? Probably we're just so smart and scientific. It's all explained in some

Unknown Speaker  43:56  
Yeah. Yeah. Not just that, but also comfortable, like think how inconvenient it would be if, like stuff like this happened. Like, yeah, this is gonna affect my savings. Like, you're not gonna make me move. Are you God? Cuz like, I've only been living in our house for four years, and like, the equity is just plummeting right now. And yeah, I know. Mark. It's not great, right? Yeah.

Caryn Rivadeneira  44:22  
I wrote down that line that he joined the company of the suffering. That was a lovely line, Greg, and I feel like that's, of course, what Jesus did. And that's a pretty good call. Did I say that? That's a good line is joining the company. Oh, maybe? Maybe I said it. I think it was no, I

Gregg DeMey  44:37  
think I did. Just some things pop up. All right. All right. Let's move this thing to the conclusion of this part of the story. Want to pick it up at verse 19? Current I share well,

Caryn Rivadeneira  44:50  
Saul pen spent several days with the disciples in Damascus it once he began to preach in the synagogues that Jesus is the Son of God. All those who heard him were astonished And asked, Isn't he the man who raised havoc in Jerusalem among those who call on his name? And hasn't he come here to take them as prisoners to the chief priests? Yet Saul grew more and more powerful and baffled the Jews living in Damascus by proving that Jesus is the Messiah.

Gregg DeMey  45:18  
And after many days had gone by, there was a conspiracy among the Jews to kill him, but saw learned of their plan. Day and night, they kept a close watch on the city gates in order to kill him. But his followers took him by night and lowered him in a basket through an opening in the city wall.

Jeffrey Klein  45:35  
When he came to Jerusalem, he tried to join the disciples, but they were all afraid of him, not believing that he was really a disciple, the Barnabas took him and brought him and brought him. See, this is where I think I might have messed up my, my script. I don't think I

Gregg DeMey  45:51  
want me to take over and take it. Yeah, okay. But Barnabas took Saul and brought him to the apostles. He told them how Saul on his journey had seen the Lord and that the Lord had spoken to him and how in Damascus, he had preached fearlessly in the name of Jesus. So Saul, Saul stayed with them, and moved about freely in Jerusalem, speaking boldly, in the name of the Lord. He talked and debated with the Hellenistic Jews, but then they tried to kill him. And when the believers learned of this, they took him down to Syria and sent him off to Tarsus.

Caryn Rivadeneira  46:21  
Then the church throughout today on Galilee, and Sumeria, enjoyed a time of peace and was strengthened. Living in the fear of the Lord and encouraged by the Holy Spirit, it increased in numbers.

Gregg DeMey  46:34  
All right, I feel like there should be a chapter break right there. It's kind of a concluding statement about kind of the church continuing to grow and enjoying a little bit of calm. But that's not how chapters and verses work. Now. So Saul goes very quickly from being the hunter to being the hunted. He starts preaching immediately, and love Luke's summary of the version of the gospel of good news that Paul starts preaching the news, Jesus, the Son of God, and this starts the problems and the suffering and the persecution first saw pretty much immediately.

Jeffrey Klein  47:17  
Yeah, I mean, he's, he's immediately in the, in the sights of the Jewish people that they had sent him to destroy this way. And now he's become part of it. And now somehow, they're like, we got to get rid of this guy, like, What's he doing? So immediately? Yeah, there, he's in the sights. You know, it's interesting, that Hellenistic Jews that they're angry because they really weren't all that orthodox are devoted anyway, that that is actually curious to they were totally in bed with the Romans had kind of adopted Greek Greek practices and in sort of compromise a lot of their legalistic stuff for lost stuff to kind of get in, you know, kind of make more peace with the Romans. So the fact that they're gonna kill him, really says something, I guess about this message, how offensive this message of Jesus's have gotten were these people. Yeah,

Gregg DeMey  48:03  
well, I think it hits at one of Saul's major qualities, which is like he's multilingual. He's kind of bicultural. So he is born in this Greco Roman city Tarsus and the Mediterranean Sea, any person born there is automatically a Roman citizen. So he is like that part of life. But he's also a trained Pharisee. And I mean, deep into all things. Judah, Jew, Jewish, and Judea stick. So I think he's totally skilled, like, preaching the gospel to Jewish folks from that perspective, but he's probably equally skilled with Greeks and Romans speaking their language and introducing Jesus or using Jesus as the countercultural kind of provocative like, this is really the way to them. So he has he's an equal opportunity offender.

Jeffrey Klein  48:56  
Yeah. And I think words that you'll see with Paul consistently for the rest of the way speaking boldly, in name of the Lord is one of the phrases and then he talks and debates with people. So he's so smart, right? He's read all the law, he's on the inside. He's been it's Pharisee, he's trained by you know, the great camellia he's totally in, and he takes all that now, and, and begins to unpack how this all points to Jesus, which of course, offends many these people. Because they're like,

Unknown Speaker  49:24  
what, fans and baffles. I'm struck too by no means no way going after, you know, Sunday school curriculum or whatever. But, you know, the story of Paul being lowered in the basket, I think, was one of the classic Sunday school tales. That is true. We were young, right, and I don't ever remember fully the context. Like it is like, so dire, like, again, it's one of those stories like this is scary. This would be terrifying to be lowered in the basket and it was all like, 

Gregg DeMey  49:53  
no, it's life or death, like underground railroad stuff. 

Caryn Rivadeneira  49:56  
It's like underground railroad stuff and just how terrifying and how the stakes you know high though The stakes are for him. And maybe it maybe I just wasn't paying attention. But I sort of always remember these is like fun adventures almost say, Well, I

Jeffrey Klein  50:07  
think that's what we do with kids curriculum. We're trying to be sensitive to the kids and disturb them. But I remember when I used to read David Goliath, my son, Joseph, he was probably six. And when I asked him, God, he loved that story. So want to hear it over again. I never would read the end, where David took away his sword and chopped his head off and then cured itself. So I finally said, God, wanna hear the story ends? Well, yeah. So I read on that first. He's like, Whoa, like it better than I think we try to, you know, all we dealing with the Bible, we kind of, you know, only when our kids to be to disturb and so we make these stories. So sometimes, yeah, people's biblical knowledge is they haven't really read the text. And again, they've heard the kids' version. But it's like, then you read it later. And you're like, oh, man, there's a lot more going on. Exactly.

Gregg DeMey  50:53  
Yeah. So there's a line in verse 23, after many days had gone by. So we don't know how much time elapse there. In Galatians. Chapter one. I think Paul alludes to spending three years kind of out in the desert. And we don't know what he's up to. Was he meditating? Was he relearning? Was he connecting the dots from the Old Testament to Jesus? Was he like being formed? Or mentored or so like, probably three years might go by somewhere in this passage that we just read?

Jeffrey Klein  51:31  
Yeah, I think, yeah, doesn't Galatians also says he goes, when he goes to Jerusalem, he spends 15 days there. Is that a later visit to Jerusalem? Is that this visit to Jerusalem?

Gregg DeMey  51:42  
We don't know No, no. Do we? I'm assuming I'm kind of would assume this one. I assume this one so that somewhere during the course of this passage, there are three years that right by with Paul, right. Yeah. So what's interesting is like, Paul has this conversion and calling experience in a nice comes, lays his hand and there's healing the scales Rep. And Paul is baptized immediately, right? And starts preaching immediately and starts preaching immediately. So just like we do it, right. Exactly. He's still has a lot to learn. There's a lot to be formed, but like, God has no problem. Yeah, like using all the rough edges and incomplete theology and understanding to do amazing and impactful work right away.

Jeffrey Klein  52:28  
And then he gets to be a target. So they let him over the wall. In which point he goes for these three years, somewhere to Arabia and Syria. I think it says right and Galatians. Arabia,

Caryn Rivadeneira  52:38  
but then he goes off, he goes back home, they send them to Tarsus, right. That's what it says here. Right. And that's not Arabia, right? No.

Jeffrey Klein  52:47  
Yeah, I don't think so. Yeah, I mean, again, this is Galatians. One where Paul's writing about his spiritual journey, and he kind of recounts these details. So it's hard to get that I looked up some timelines, and I'm like, Okay, these are all over the map. So it's probably hard to get exact, they give it dates, they put it all in, you know, but it's a I barely remember what I did last week.

Gregg DeMey  53:09  
So it's, it's these, it's these two things, intention, though, like, God wants to and will use us at whatever point of formation we are. And also, he wants us to grow up and get mature and transcend some of the gaps in our knowledge and understanding and our immaturity he's so like, both of those things are happening. Like in this season of saw Paul's life.

Caryn Rivadeneira  53:35  
Yeah. And I mean, if he was proving, as it says that Jesus was the Messiah, I mean, he, I would assume he'd be pretty well equipped for that, because he would be using the Hebrew script, right, the prophecies and all that and he, whatever, so he did have some giftings he did. It wasn't like, I wasn't this guy, you know, just like, it wasn't

Jeffrey Klein  53:54  
just a complete, like whatever, just hanging out. And I'll say he's preaching. I mean, he definitely had a lot of learning, right? That was undergirding this preaching, and he was reinterpreting that. Yeah.

Gregg DeMey  54:04  
Yeah, it is striking that right out of the blocks, his message is a little different than like the sermons that we've heard from Peter does, then he's preaching that Jesus is the Son of God, which is a way of putting it which would have run differently in the ears of Greeks and Hebrews, but would have been equally Like what? Right, right, impactful, and offensive in a way?

Jeffrey Klein  54:27  
Well, I mean, didn't wasn't Caesar to call the Son of God indeed. So that's a slap in the face to any Roman Gentile citizen say, Jesus, Son of God. Wait, man, what, what are you? Yeah, so there's, there's this is a radical message.

Gregg DeMey  54:42  
Yeah. So we kind of mentioned this already, but clearly, like solving in a personality transplant at this point, and God is going to use his history, gifts abilities, like in new and amplified ways. So Saul's learning. His zealousness is communication abilities is Yeah, leadership has savvy has forcefulness zealousness. All of those things are like still 100% they're more than 100% they're

Jeffrey Klein  55:10  
able to debate, right? I mean, his debating and discussion skills come into play many times along the journeys of these missionary journeys, so,

Gregg DeMey  55:20  
yeah, hey, I feel like we've been going for an hour already. Is that true? We're certainly close to an hour. Oh, we haven't made it to the end of x chapter nine. So shall we?

Shall we step on the gas pedal of this Tesla, get it to the Yeah. So yeah, we're gonna take verses 32 through the end of the chapter. So as Peter now traveled about the country, he went to visit the Lord's people who lived in litho. And there he found a man named in the US was paralyzed and had been bedridden for eight years. And as Peter said to him, Jesus Christ heals you. So get up and roll up your mat. And immediately Aeneas got up and all those who lived in lidda and Sharon saw him and turn to the Lord.

Caryn Rivadeneira  56:03  
And Joppa there was a disciple named Tabitha in Greek, her name is Dorcas. She was always doing good and helping the poor. About that time she became sick and died, and her body was washed and placed in an upstairs room. Linda was near Joppa. So when the disciples heard that Peter wasn't lit up, they sent two men to him and urged, please come at once. This is you, Greg. I think

Gregg DeMey  56:30  
I got you. Alright. So Peter went with him. And when he arrived, he was taken upstairs to the room and all the windows, all the widows stood around him, all the windows. I was picturing him in the upstairs room, all the windows that are on the windows, all the widows did around him crying and showing him the robes and outer clothing that Dorcas had made while she was still with them.

Jeffrey Klein  56:51  
Peter sent them all out of the room. Then he got down on his knees and prayed. turning toward the dead woman, he said, Tabitha, get up. She opened her eyes and seeing Peter she sat up, he took her by the hand and helps her to her feet. Then he called for the believers, especially the widows, and presented her to them alive. This became known all over Joppa. And many people believed in the Lord. Peter stayed in Java for some time with a Tanner named Simon.

Gregg DeMey  57:17  
Alright, so the amazing transformations that have been cataloged in the book of Acts continue a pace. So we're back kind of in Israel proper at this point job is a seaside town Judas, maybe 10 miles outside of Joppa. But all of a sudden is the gospel expands like there's a growing list of like non-Jewish names like a Greek names Dorcas, Aeneas, and like, folks who are coming onto the way from all different sources now. And the spotlight clearly shifts from all this stuff about Saul-Paul to now for several chapters, we're going to be hanging with Peter once again. And God has already seemed to sort of be stirring in Peter this like, openness like he's already been with the Samaritans. Now he's traveling kind of to the outskirts of Israel. And there's just a greater variety of people that are showing up in all the stories now.

Caryn Rivadeneira  58:17  
There are and what do we want to make of the fact that they call Tabitha or Dorcas, a disciple? I thought there were no women disciples.

Jeffrey Klein  58:27  
I know Luke eight. Okay. Luke is the gospel of the women's car. You know this. I understand that. My disciples though, I believe that sure. Luke eight verses one and two, they're called disciples. Yeah. Okay.

Gregg DeMey  58:38  
Yeah. The first four verses of Luke eight describe a whole series of women who are traveling as disciples and are the ones who are financially supporting the merry band of disciples. But that's

Caryn Rivadeneira  58:51  
what I mean, like so. Was she traveling ever with them? Like do we know I mean, we see are sort of in this decon kind of I love this story. I

Jeffrey Klein  59:00  
love to work. Yeah, I don't I don't know if you know, who knows, we don't know that history of her. She's in this town jotted down by the sea coast. So that's a long way from Jerusalem or the main hub. But doesn't mean she didn't travel with them. She might have.

Caryn Rivadeneira  59:13  
It's just interesting with her being sort of it seemingly disconnected, I guess. But whatever. We're all disciples.

Gregg DeMey  59:21  
I think it's just saying like, she's already walking away. She's already she already knows Jesus. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. So when we were last with Philip, the deacon or the evangelist, it mentioned that he, you know, appears and as poetic and then goes preaching up the coast to Syria, and both of these towns are between zoetis and Syria. So it doesn't say that like, wow, Phil it made a big impact, and he was part of bringing Dorcas to Earth. No, no Jesus, but it's possible indeed.

Jeffrey Klein  59:57  
Yeah. Philip was the key player in this one. Right, that fell up.

Gregg DeMey  1:00:03  
Yeah. So it's no wonder that the way is growing like wildfire, if things like this keep happening, right, there's healing. There's a dramatic life change. I mean, just just in this one chapter we have, yeah, a resurrection of massive healing and multiple visions and this dramatic conversion, and one of the key players of Judaism, flipping the script or changing teams and following the way

Jeffrey Klein  1:00:36  
it's a pretty dramatic chapter, I'd say, super dramatic. If we had this kind of drama going on in the church today, we probably have more people paying attention. Isn't that I mean, Tom, talking power of God released healing kind of things happening where people felt like the church was a place to go seek healing. I think that was true in the 60s and 70s. People thought of the church as a place to go to get their spiritual questions answered, and to kind of find healing and hope. In the modern 2020 2020 era decade, we become much more of the people that are, you know, people are suspicious of our motives, whatever. And so I think if we could become this human community that offers this kind of healing, it would really

Caryn Rivadeneira  1:01:19  
healing and welcome this. I mean, I think that's the other thing that we see is again, just this inclusion, I am so struck, as I read through the book of Acts of how just free and open right, the outsiders who are reached to the idea of the most unlikely candidates being in these places, and how I think for the past decades, I feel like most of my life, it's just been all about building the fences and who's in who's out, you can't do this, you can do this. And whatever, you know, you're not appropriate for the role. And we hear all that and in some level, that's right. But it's like we are working so hard to tame and control and systematize I guess, you know, the way the Holy Spirit works, and so maybe there would be drama like this good drama. is so dramatic.

Gregg DeMey  1:02:06  
Yeah. But so after 30 years of kind of internet living feel like everybody's deep-seated impulses, days of like, Hey, I have this physical condition. And I go, what's the first thing we do? We like MD Web MD. Exactly. Then you realize you're dying. You get right, what's your how do we get on that Google search of like, you should go to church first. Yeah, right. Or, like, when we're lonely. Our first thing is like, I should update my Tinder profile. or? Yeah, I've never done that as a as a young single person. Right? No, I'm just saying like, whatever the thing is, whether it's physical or relational, or I mean, spiritual, right, probably the first place we go with our curiosity and questions is to the collective wisdom of the internet. So I just want to say out loud, like I aspire to have the church be so vital that for not for every physical diagnosis, but maybe at least for people who are here that that's at the top of the app that top of the list of Yeah,

Jeffrey Klein  1:03:21  
mental dyno. I mean, right now, supposedly, and I think this is true. I've talked to several counselors who said they have waiting lists, that people came in to see a counselor, because there's so much anxiety and all kinds of stuff going on, because of all this happened last year and a half. Well, you know, how can we step into that? How can we offer healing? How can we offer a place to come and you know, we're not counselors, but we can certainly Listen, love you come around you. And again, you know, that doesn't mean coming here to church necessarily. It means our people who are carrying Jesus in them wherever they go, we're meeting people that might need us to be listeners. I don't know to be the church, to be the Healing Church where we find ourselves.

Caryn Rivadeneira  1:04:01  
Yeah, I mean, I'm so excited for this reason to having those elders up, you know, after church every weekend and I love it when people email in or call for prayer, you know, just to pray on the phone. And you know, I prayer is a really important starting place it's for something there's the it's prayer is very mysterious. God doesn't always answer our prayers the way that we want, but yet it it aligns us with God, it opens our hearts to God, it reminds us who's in charge of everything and who's in control. And I do think that the act of sharing your prayer request with somebody else to just even while you're waiting to hear, you know, get an appointment with that counselor, or whatever it is for the doctor. It's just, it's so powerful.

Gregg DeMey  1:04:38  
Yeah, so I think frequently we think of human beings as having these multiple facets of our life. CDM and colleges do this like the nine slices your emotional slice, your psychological slice, your physical slice, your dietary slice, your spiritual slice, like all of those, and in a way that's helpful, like for sure those dynamics exists for all of us. But as a Christian person, it is a See, the spiritual is like the umbrella over which everything else exists. It's like the master key. So, like, healing prayer does not negate the power have the right prescription, or really skilled psychological counseling if you have an emotional problem, but part of the power of prayer is inviting healing and then having the discernment of like, being clued in by the Spirit of God like, yep, this is a necessary ongoing part of your healing. I think those kinds of conclusions and revelations like, frequently come through the Holy Spirit speaking, leading guiding, when you have a vital spirituality,

Jeffrey Klein  1:05:51  
and part of healing, I think is trusting God, that however, he decides to heal you that he's doing something, he's always up to something. So if I don't get immediately healed, that means that something must be going on that he wants to work on me, that's going to take a longer road than just me being immediately healed. It's really difficult to trust God in those moments. But I know for me being a hardhead you know, if I hadn't been sort of run through the wringer for maybe a longer time, I would not have gotten it. If somebody would have just snap their fingers and heal me immediately. I'd be like, Oh, you know, and I and even these stories, here's a guy eight years but bedridden. So eight years, he's been laying in bed, and now Peter shows up and heals him. Well, you know, that's, that's so what was going on those eight years? Like we're Where are you? God, you know, I'm sure he was begging God at that time to heal them and fix them and whatever, and nothing happened. And so yeah,

Gregg DeMey  1:06:45  
all right. Well, that was an amazing, an epic chapter. So for the next couple of chapters. Next, we're gonna stick with Peter for a while. The Holy Spirit is up to some new and unforeseen and creative things. So buckle your seat belts, everybody. We're going to continue. Thanks to Billy Heschel who has been our sound engineer today and to Sheri Van Spronsen Leppink, who keeps us well organized and hopefully communicating clearly. Thanks for hanging with us. Peace. In the meantime..

Transcribed by https://otter.ai