Acts 15 - All Together Now

Summary:
On this week’s Wade in the Word, the fighting begins! At least, it does in the early church. Listen in as Gregg DeMey (lead pastor), Jeff Klein (pastor of outreach), and Caryn Rivadeneira (director of care and worship planning) wade into the arguments of Acts 15 and the ways we still preach “Jesus and…” on salvation issues.

Today's Hosts
Gregg DeMey, Lead Pastor
Jeff Klein, Pastor of Outreach
Caryn Rivadeneira, Director of Care

Questions/Comments:  We'd love to hear from you! Email ASK.

Note: Wade in the Word is a weekly podcast designed to take a deep dive into scripture for the weekend message. Join our pastors, staff, and occasional special guests as we reflect together.

Wade in the Word podcast is a production of Elmhurst Christian Reformed Church, located in Elmhurst, IL. Wade in the Word is produced and audio-engineered by Kyle Olson, Technical Director. For more information about Elmhurst CRC or to find out about other tools and resources to grow you and your family in faith, visit elmhurstcrc.org.

Transcript

SPEAKERS

Caryn Rivadeneira, Gregg DeMey, Jeffrey Klein

Gregg DeMey  00:02

Hey, welcome friends to the Wade in the Word podcast here at Elmhurst CRC. We are getting ready for Sunday worship service on Sunday, September 12. It's kind of an important day in the history of Elmhurst CRC; we're coming back together indoors for worship. Our elders have been promoting a vision of our congregation for unified worship, and I'm very thankful that this week we have Acts chapter 15, which is exactly on target the early church kind of struggling and wrestling and disagreeing and meeting and haggling over how to be a unified church. So sitting here with Caryn Rivadeneira Hello, hello, hey, morning garden. And the honorable Reverend Jeff Klein. Wow. Never been called.

Gregg DeMey  00:50

I'm just taking for granted that current is super.

Jeffrey Klein  00:54

honorable. Exactly. We it's good. I like it. Alright.

Gregg DeMey  00:59

Nice. And I feel like in the spirit of Acts 15. We should have some lively disagreements.

Caryn Rivadeneira  01:04

Absolutely. When sharp disputes have

Gregg DeMey  01:07

to take this offline and form subcommittees and really work through some stuff.

Jeffrey Klein  01:11

That's good. I like it; we can ever we can call the Elmhurst Council.

Gregg DeMey  01:15

Now you missed your opportunity. This was your chance.

Jeffrey Klein  01:17

Are you are wrong, okay,

Gregg DeMey  01:18

I don't need to do that; I was going exactly the opposite of what we should do. Alright, we are going to kick off; we're going to work through the first 21 verses this morning of Acts chapter 15. So current if you'd be so kind and get us rolling. Sure.

Caryn Rivadeneira  01:35

Certain people came down from Judea to Antioch, and we're teaching the believers unless you are circumcised according to the custom taught by Moses, you cannot be saved. This brought Paul and Barnabas into sharp dispute and debate with them. So Paul and Barnabas were appointed, along with some other believers, to go to Jerusalem to see the apostles and elders about this question.

Jeffrey Klein  01:55

The church sent them on their way. And as they traveled through Phoenicia and Sumeria, they told how the Gentiles had been converted. This news made all the believers very glad they came to Jerusalem; they were welcomed by the church and the apostles and elders to whom they reported everything God had done through them.

Gregg DeMey  02:13

But then some of the believers who belong to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, well, the Gentiles must be circumcised and required to keep the law of Moses. And then, the apostles and the elders met to consider this question. So right here is the first major rift in the early church, potentially pitting two sides against each other over. Okay, what's going to be our following Jesus attitude toward the Old Testament law. I just want to recognize that Paul and Barnabas, I think, demonstrate some wisdom here. So they're going a few 100 miles south from Antioch, which is a spirit-filled missionary-sending church already, that they are kind of spreading the good news in the report of what the Holy Spirit accomplished through them on the first missionary journey. So rather than just diving deep into this divisive thing, they're wise enough to start with, like, Hey, here's what God's been doing. It is it's making everybody glad. So they travel through Phoenicia through some area, and the early believers are not like, Huh, are you sure this is a good idea? More Gentiles. But no, everybody is, honestly, joyful and glad that this is happening. And then the same thing when they get to Jerusalem, they report into the church there to the apostles and the elders. And before diving into this thorny issue, which we will get to very quickly. The Bible does say they share this good news report of what the Holy Spirit has been doing in the months and probably years and longer. before. So it's a little interesting to me that this issue with the law, it's probably coming from converted Pharisees. So Acts chapter 15, verse five tells us that some believers who belong to the party of the Pharisees and remember that Paul is a former faricy himself super great at observing the law. And all of its nuances and details. Bring up this point. And it's no small thing. They're not like, hey, it really should keep the law. But we have folks who are saying that unless, unless you're circumcised, which is really a stand in for like keeping the whole law, unless you're keeping the whole lot You can't be saved. So it's like a salvation question. It's not just a preference Are we really think it should go this way, or the church will turn out better? Or this will be more cohesive, if we're all following the law together, like, hey, you're not actually following Jesus, you're not actually in God's good graces unless you're following the whole law.

Jeffrey Klein  04:54

So I don't think this is a new argument in Judaism. In fact, my time in Israel taught me that there were two rabbinical schools way before Jesus even shumai would said as Gentiles because Gentiles were coming to believe in the God of the Jews, even before Jesus, right? They were being the synagogues were all over the world. And they were attracted to this Jewish way of life. And so they started to join the Jewish faith that my school said, Well, if you're gonna join us, you've got to get circumcised, you got to get the right clothes, you got to observe the laws about food. These are all the laws that make you a real Jew. So if you're going to really be a Jew, you got to be all in. There was another school called the Hillel school who said, No, you're justified by faith, Abraham, even before he was circumcised was justified by faith. So. So I think this is an ancient argument that is now moving into the church. There's probably more at stake here. But I think there's a lot of background to this. And obviously, it seems to me like Paul was probably of the Hillel right bent as we know, his writings. And these Pharisees are probably on the other side. So it's interesting that this has been a long-time argument as Gentiles have come into the synagogues into the Jewish faith trying to figure out like, Oh, so super interesting. Got some nerdy background; I have a super nerdy

Caryn Rivadeneira  06:11

now that's super interesting now, but

Gregg DeMey  06:13

yeah, so there have been some modern rabbis who have put it this way. Judaism is the one religion where you don't have to believe the tenants of the religion in order to be saved. Right. So like it, so they would be siding more with Hillel. Right perspective in modern times, sort of meaning like, like, there are the righteous and the unrighteous, reverses believers and unbelievers. And their point is like, hey, if you only have the Torah, like this is the distinction that God makes right, righteous and unrighteous now like you believe the right stuff, and you've saved, or you or you grew up in the right country, so you know, the right stuff, and you're saved. Right? So just the perspective that God is calling right the righteous into his family or empowering the righteous in every corner of the globe.

Jeffrey Klein  07:08

And they took this law discussion even further; they divided the law into three parts; there was the cultic law, which was all about the sacrifices; you couldn't even practice that without the temple. So today, no one's gone; Scott is gone. There was the ethical law, which is like, well, this applies to everybody. Right? The 10 commandments are the way God designed the universe. And we're all supposed to act this way. And then there were the laws that were called the books of the law or the way of the law. And that was kind of what made you distinctly a Jewish person. So that was the big debate here, like, Are we going to make these guys be fully Jewish? If they're going to join this Jesus movement? You know, in the Pharisees, like, come on, they got to get circumcised because those are all the laws have made you distinctly Jewish. Right. And that's, that's kind of the background of this whole discussion that's been going on for probably hundreds of years before even Jesus, or you know, was around.

Caryn Rivadeneira  07:54

I just, I mean, I have, I always have great sympathy for these people, first of all, because they've been, you know, adhering to it for so long that it really would be frustrating. Like, look, we've been living this way, which is not easy. We've been doing these things, you know, which everybody should have to. But I also just keep thinking how, you know, it's easy for us, though, now to look back and go like, Well, of course, they would have had to be circumcised, of course, whatever. And yet, I feel like today in the church, we still do this; instead of wanting people to become like Jesus, we want people who come to our church to become like us. Like, we still have this sort of assimilation. Oh, come on. No, we never do that. No, but I mean, it's that it's the, I don't know, it's just so human. Like, we want people to just be like us, okay, if you want to join us, you need to be like us, you need to don't bring your own stuff, you know, your own weirdnesses. And

Gregg DeMey  08:44

we're certainly not explicit about that. No, these days. I mean, in previous generations,

Caryn Rivadeneira  08:53

Oh, for sure.

Gregg DeMey  08:54

But there's an implicit power. And if you come in, I think even a great church, like Elmhurst CRC, like, if you don't kind of have a significant amount of overlap with the people who are already here, like you feel that, like, you don't need someone to tell you that like the implicit observation is totally there. And here, just something as simple as like here in the western suburbs, if like my brother in law, who has been a journeyman welder, and plumber, if he comes in here, he instinctively feels like, I don't have a college degree. These people seem like they're a little heavy and too smart for me. Right? And it's not like we're trying to, like hold a person like him at arm's length. That's just like, that's part of that's been part of this community for decades at this point,

Jeffrey Klein  09:40

but even this is what Willow Creek did for the church in some ways, right? It was like, we dressed up for Sunday in our suits and ties because we're trying to honor God; that was the old thing. Oh, we used to, but I'm just saying when Willow Creek came on, Bill, I was like, well, it the dressing up actually is a barrier to people that may be wanting to come to explore church because they don't really want to put their uniform on to come to look like us. So we need to look more like we do during the week. So that, you know, it's just one of those little things that you know, just the way people can walk into a place and feel more welcomed. We're more part of it,

Caryn Rivadeneira  10:13

more part of it. Right. And there is a belonging sense to it, either way, there's, and that's very important to humans as well. And I wasn't saying that this is an issue with our church in specific I mean, it's everywhere. It's human nature, we want people well if you're going to be part of this, we're gonna go to this school, if you're gonna blah, blah, blah, you know, you need to, you need to adapt and be like us.

Gregg DeMey  10:32

Yep. So I'm really glad you brought up sort of the three dimensions of like the cultic ethic, ritual sacrifice part, the ethical part, and the cultural part. Because still, still to these days, I would want to maintain, as a commitment to the ethical part, exactly the law, like the ethical core, which is best summed up in the 10 commandments, right in which Jesus reiterate, is best summed up in love God and love your neighbor, right is the simplest summary of the law. Yeah. But like in North American culture, I think until very recently, we would have had common ground. And like, of course, the 10 commandments are like the ethical foundation of Western civilization. But to say that now, in 2021, potentially lands you in hot water or puts you in the position of you're cramming religion down, and other people, we're not teaching the 10 commandments in public school. That's not necessarily what I'm advocating. But I'm just observing that the just, and righteous, and ethical foundation of our entire society is on the 10 commandments. And one, just interesting little dimension, like if you would interview North American Christians, or clergy, and ask them whether like, following the fourth commandment about keeping the Sabbath is like a significant part of their spiritual practice. It's like 5050. So even though I thought 100 years ago, it would have been 100% of like, of course, that's one of the 10 commandments. So we don't do it perfectly, but observing the Sabbath day, is as core to our identity and our spiritual practice. So just that way that needle has moved, and that commandment of like, we don't even recognize anymore that the Sabbath is, like one of the core ethical parts of being the people of God.

Caryn Rivadeneira  12:33

I think it's actually. I mean, it's interesting that you say that because if you reframed it the question like, do you believe rest is important? You know, I think most people would say, yes, at least at some level, but you know, as I think through the 10 commandments, and things like you know, do not covet and rest or do not rest, it does say to rest, do not covet. Those are sort of central to who we are as Americans like we don't rest well. And coveting is central to capitalism, like, I want that. So I'm going to work, and I'm not being an anti-capitalist, pro-capitalism. But that's the greed. Is it the is at the core of it. It's at the core of our economy. And so I think even as a competition, competition, but desire for,

Gregg DeMey  13:13

but it's fine; it's a fine, fine line.

Caryn Rivadeneira  13:15

Totally. And again, I'm not, you know, it's a fine economic system with plenty of faults, but anyway, but it's just as Americans that's like, deeply rooted, I think, in who we are. And so I think that's a Yeah, that's kind of an interesting component where I don't think it's just the problem of like people saying, we don't want the 10 commandments at the courthouse, but just that really like central to who we are. And that's, that's not American Christians,

Jeffrey Klein  13:40

to a great point so deeply rooted in who these Jewish people were, yes. Was I was tassels on the edge of my clothes; I have certain kinds of things coming off my hair. I only eat certain kinds of food, and I'm circumcised. Right. So now, all of a sudden, you got these Gentiles coming to faith; they don't have any of those things. And there's this big question on the table. Okay. Are we gonna make these guys like, become like who we are? Are they allowed to be justified and enter this whole movement without actually observing this part of the law? Can they just be Gentiles and welcome, then that's the huge heart of the matter, right?

Caryn Rivadeneira  14:16

When especially because all those things I would imagine are in place. They're the set of partners of the Jewish people. So again, it's like this was was God's idea. So it might seem like, wait a minute, we are throwing all this out in the kingdom of priests.

Jeffrey Klein  14:29

They were so attractive to the Gentiles because their way of life was so distinctive. I didn't know this till this week, but 20% of Asia Minor was Jewish. I just found that out. So that means one in five people were Jewish, all raised minor. So that means that the Jewish people had a massive like, influence, and presence in this whole Roman area, and people the Gentiles were attracted to what they were how they were living.

Gregg DeMey  14:54

So a significant minority. Yeah,

Jeffrey Klein  14:56

it is. I mean, that's Yeah. So

Gregg DeMey  14:58

yeah. So I also want to recognize The tension hereof, of motivations, like one possible motivation of these believers from the group of the Pharisees might seem like, we want to control these new believers, we want to make them conform, we want to make them look exactly like us. On the other hand, like, I'm assuming many of them were wise enough and circumspect enough to know, like, in a generous way that like, in giving the law God intended to make people free, right, because all of us have experienced, like, when you choose limits for yourself, you experience freedom and joy. Right? So we're all married doing this podcast, and in like walking the road of marriage, you choose one person and restrain yourself from living with one person, and you take every other person on the planet. Like, off the table, right? So not that marriage is easy, but right God intends to give us stability and togetherness and long-term comfort and joy through that. Right. And when I, whenever I choose to play the piano, right, which means I don't choose to play a bunch of other instruments, and I choose to practice in a certain way, all of which, like I do orderly practice, right? I just don't randomly sit down and play whatever notes I want.

Jeffrey Klein  16:22

So that's why I can't play the piano lessons. But I was more random in my priority bar restriction. I'm not sure like, I just hold me down and just play the

Gregg DeMey  16:31

play the notes that sound good together.

Jeffrey Klein  16:33

No wonder I can't really play the piano problem. I didn't have anyone told you.

Gregg DeMey  16:37

And even I mean, what do you ever every song? Like, there are 88 keys on the piano, right? But you limit yourself to a certain number of like sounds and pitches. And that's how beautiful things happen through restraint. So

Jeffrey Klein  16:50

I got to use all the keys. Imagine that.

Gregg DeMey  16:55

Very modern, avant-garde. Yeah, but you catch my point. I'm just saying like, possibly the motivation of these Pharisee Christians is like trying to pass on the gift of freedom that comes from the healthy adoption and restraint of the law.

Jeffrey Klein  17:15

Yeah, I mean, I think their motivation probably is purer than we think. Right? They're just trying to preserve what they have, like, learn to believe this is what it means to be a person that believes in God and follows his ways. And this is the way you do it. Right. So I don't think these are, it's interesting. It's the same thing that happens in the church today, right? The young people always accuse the old people, you're out of touch, you know, but the old girl is like going women now this worked like this way of life that we lived. You might make fun of it, but it actually worked. Not due to being staring at your phone every five minutes. Not to be constantly accessible, having like a day of rest was a good thing. Like it really was good to have to stop and to cease. And that just keep going going going. Right? So. So I think people look in, they're trying, again, their motivations not to crimp our style, their motivation is to say, no, this, this worked for us, you know, and so we want it to work for you. We think this is the best way to live, you know, so it's right. All the time, I always think of it is more, you know, old crotchety, they're just trying to squeeze us into their thing, but,

Caryn Rivadeneira  18:14

but they were, I mean, Greg mentioned earlier, and when it says right here, I mean, they were happy. They were delighted that all these converts were there. So it wasn't like they were like, oh, man, I gotta deal with it wasn't. Okay, so can I ask one question, though, that I guess I should have read about before we did this. But anyway, it's fine. It's about women. So when women, Jewish women back in the day, where they only considered saved through their household through their fathers, or husbands, or what was the if, if the belief was that you needed circumcision is what I'm getting at. And I'm just thinking about that you and your household thing is whatever

Jeffrey Klein  18:51

it is, yeah. We know the household was a major part of this ancient culture, of course. And so I think that households and again, I don't think this was offensive to women. Sure, back then, it was like they were part of this household. And yeah, the covenant came part of the covenant was the circumcision that came through the mail,

Caryn Rivadeneira  19:11

right? Yeah. I'm not actually trying to be; on the other hand, if

Gregg DeMey  19:15

we flip forward to Acts chapter 16, we meet this woman named Lydia, right. And her house in her household is referred to

Caryn Rivadeneira  19:22

Yes, exactly. I'm actually not trying to be like, oh, I'm just curious about the structure here because it's talking about how you're saved. And so I feel if that was part of the, you know, protection or whatever of, you know, the patriarchy existed for a good reason for a time, so I'm

Jeffrey Klein  19:38

yeah, I think yeah, I mean, you see Cornelius and his whole household gets converted the Philippian jailer and his whole household gets converted. Right. So there's, this is a frequent phrase in the book of Acts, I think. I'm not sure answer the question, but I'm just wondering.

Caryn Rivadeneira  19:53

about their efforts single woman, I guess if that would have been part of the not only the economic product Don't Ruth and Naomi, but was there also something that if you were not part of this, were you? Was there a salvation issue for you? I guess a Jewish woman?

Gregg DeMey  20:08

Yeah. I mean, I don't think so if we, I mean, think of Mary of Nazareth, right. It's like Joseph disappears, like, as far as we know, there's no like, remarriage that happens. But Jesus does take steps to, like, put her under. Right, or alongside Mary, care, and under the care and protection of John,

Jeffrey Klein  20:27

right. Yeah. Mary Magdalene, I mean, seems to have no man in her life, ever. And she certainly is a major player in the whole Jesus story.

Gregg DeMey  20:36

Yeah. So to me, it's like a both, and like, Mary of Nazareth is both like the first and greatest disciple. And she's still a woman in a patriarchal society. And when Jesus is leaving the scene, he takes care to bring another man into her life,

Caryn Rivadeneira  20:52

right? Yeah, I was thinking more like just Old Testament, really old school, just how that worked for women anyway. Totally a side issue. Perhaps not.

Jeffrey Klein  21:02

But anyway, you would have been in your tent carrying, I wouldn't make some food for your husband, or

Gregg DeMey  21:07

you could have been Deborah, like leading the whole situation or wait to

Jeffrey Klein  21:11

jail and I drive a stake through the guy's head who comes to sleep in your tent thinking you're just

Gregg DeMey  21:16

making DeVos? just heard of hold the prophetess? There you go. Yeah, right. So great.

Jeffrey Klein  21:22

Yeah. Yeah, there's a lot of these female characters that are quite.

Caryn Rivadeneira  21:25

I know, I know. I know. I know. I'm just wondering about the salvation issue. Totally.

Jeffrey Klein  21:30

I guess for a Jewish person? That's a good question. I think it would be through the mail because of the circumcision in that part of this household. But that didn't disqualify you. If you're

Caryn Rivadeneira  21:39

they didn't really have like a personal, whatever evangelicals were all your personal relationship with Jesus. And that's cultural.

Gregg DeMey  21:46

So again, what I said before is I think Judaism focuses on righteousness versus unrighteousness. Right. And keeping the law is part of being a righteous person generally. But it doesn't mean you're a righteous person. There are all kinds of people outside of the Jewish covenant. Who are the Gentile righteous?

Jeffrey Klein  22:05

Right? Yeah, exactly.

Caryn Rivadeneira  22:07

It's a good band name.

Jeffrey Klein  22:09

The Gentile, right? Gentile, righteous. Yeah. All right.

Gregg DeMey  22:13

I feel a song coming on. I'll be back in a few minutes. All right, let's go. Acts 15, verses seven to 12. After much discussion, Peter then got up and addressed them.

Jeffrey Klein  22:27

Brothers, you know that some time ago, God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe, God, who knows the heart, show that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them just as he did to us? He did not discriminate between them and us; pray purified their hearts by faith. Now, then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of the Gentiles a yoke, either we or our ancestors have been able to bear? No, we believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved just as they are.

Caryn Rivadeneira  23:02

Then the whole assembly became silent as they listened to Barnabas and Paul telling about the signs and wonders God had done among the Gentiles through them.

Gregg DeMey  23:12

Alright, so the debate kind of starts up here. Again, I think it's important to note that then in the middle of the debate, Paul and Barnabas, again, give a report and what the Holy Spirit has done. So so wise that they don't just, I think it's all gone at it hammers and tongs, but it keeps coming up like the Holy Spirit is doing something new here.

Jeffrey Klein  23:31

I think it's also interesting that Paul never really gets in the argument here. Like he's not the spokesperson, he steps back and lets Peter and James kind of lead the argument charge. He just keeps reporting on the amazing things God's doing that through his work and with the Gentiles. Right. That's pretty interesting. Because Paul is a kind of a cantankerous guy, yeah, he certainly has a position on this.

Gregg DeMey  23:50

Although in one of his own letters, Paul does refer to rebuking Peter

Jeffrey Klein  23:53

he dies. Yes, he does. Galatians Yeah, right. Right. I know.

Gregg DeMey  23:58

So. So also notable here is what so Peter gets up. And yeah, we are going to hear from some of the Jerusalem church leaders at this point. And Peter probably is first to speak. Right? And Peter points out that, like of the new things that God is doing, he's confirming faith through the gift of the Holy Spirit. So that's a very striking phrase to me. And that God is also purifying people's hearts by faith. And then he draws up this contrast between the law which he calls the yoke that neither we nor our forebears were able to bear and that grace of the Lord. So it makes me think of Martin Luther. Yeah, 1500 years later, who has like, yeah, we have one foot in the world of law, and one foot in the world of grace, like Peter, is the first one to kind of set up this dichotomy or contrast here.

Jeffrey Klein  24:55

Yeah, I mean, I think Peters, striking at the heart of what does it mean to be a Christian Right, he's basically asking the question, so if you're a Christian, what does that do how does that happen? You know, what, what does that mean? And he's saying, well, it's grace. It's the Holy Spirit overwhelming your life. It's not about the law. It's not about this yoke you take on; it's about this freeing, Grace-filled, holy, spirit-filled, spiritual, supernatural experience.

Gregg DeMey  25:21

Yeah, so I think we should remember that earlier. And acts like Peter had this experience of traveling up to Sumeria. Right? There are some Samaritan believers, and all of a sudden, like, the gift of the Holy Spirit comes, like, should we baptize the Samaritans? And Peter's words are like, well, if God's given the Holy Spirit, who are we to stand in the way of they're getting baptized, and they baptize a whole bunch of Samaritans? In the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, like right there on the spot, and then an Acts 10 and 11. There's this personal experience that Peter has with his vision of the sheet and all the animals and unclean, and you know, Peter Killiney No, Lord, oh, I never do that. They're horrible animals. And God says, like, if I've made it if I've made it clean, who are you to, you know, keep calling it unclean. So Peter is bringing like all of that right to the table right now.

Jeffrey Klein  26:12

That was a great impersonation of that was really, I love that.

Caryn Rivadeneira  26:16

I just, I think that the yoke line here is so good. And I feel like it also just cuts through to the heart of the Jewish believers who are there listening, because as much good as the law did, like you were saying, the freedom that it gives us the restraints, and people who are set apart, obviously, is very difficult to and there are parts of it that are just whenever you read through the full law, and it's overwhelming, you know, the details of some of these things. So I think just addressing that, like, yeah, we can't, we can't live up to this. We know this that this is yo we can't bear. I mean, that's an interesting phrase to have, just obviously speaking to the weight of this on them. And yeah, contrasting that with the grace is quite lovely. I

Jeffrey Klein  26:59

mean, yeah, I mean, if I suppose imagine being a Jewish person, I goodness, and having to mean three travel festivals every year to Jerusalem. So if you live in Galilee, or you're, you're heading out, you know, constant every week, sacrifices for your sins. constantly having to go and make an atonement with these animals from your whatever and then having like, this certain clothes to wear this certain diet to have this certain way you function the way you know, even today, even today in Jerusalem, it literally on the Sabbath day would start Sunday, Friday, when the sun goes down. The place is like a ghost town. Only in Jerusalem. If you're in Galilee, it's a party, but in Jerusalem, it's still like it goes down as you can walk down the main street there's not a car anywhere. There's no one driving, there's no one out the stores are close. Everything is just shut locked down. It's unbelievable. That sounds awesome, though. Yeah, it's unreal. It's like it just there's nothing to do; you just have to wait till the sun goes back down Saturday night, then everyone comes out. And it's just like a giant, like celebration of the Sabbath is over. And we're just gonna go have fun now. It's the craziest thing.

Gregg DeMey  28:07

Well, both are good, right? Yeah, sure. And then when Ordinary Time resumes, but the yoke they're under?

Caryn Rivadeneira  28:15

Yeah. Yeah, it's interesting to bring up the Sabbath has a super yoki but whatever but it could be at some times and whatever your

Gregg DeMey  28:24

Yeah, I mean, my shorthand for yoke would be like the power of obligation. Like you have to do this quest, right? Yes. I think we're gonna be forced and, like, coerced to do this. And if you don't, you'll be punished.

Caryn Rivadeneira  28:36

Yeah, it's like the clean it's the unclean stuff that gets me when I was read them like oh my goodness, how do you even remember all this? You know, if you touch this animal in this and

Jeffrey Klein  28:45

I'll never forget being in Beth Shemesh, which is kind of in the middle of the country with Raven Alon, and he showed us there were actually pig bones in the remains of this town. So this is a Jewish town. And they found pig bone remains in the middle of the town. So again, it's like, you know, they were trying to keep the law, but they just couldn't do it right. It was there are so many other things they get temptations. I mean, bacon, How do you go without bacon or some good hammer? I don't know. You know, pork or Yeah, it's like how do you make it so? So it's interesting you showed us these pig bones like Oh, so in the ruins of this town there are hidden pig bones like hidden all through these holes. It's pretty crazy. Right? So

Gregg DeMey  29:24

hard to do. Bacon the gateway food

Jeffrey Klein  29:28

it's broken many

Caryn Rivadeneira  29:29

vegetarian.

Gregg DeMey  29:30

It reminds me there is like a back in the 90s a DC talk Christian group. rap about the story of Jesus freeing the Legion of his demons. Yeah, there's a lion that I think was like about after the pigs fall off the cliff into the Sea of Galilee. I think I went they drowned. They drowned free bacon in the town.

Jeffrey Klein  29:52

Nice, nice, nice wine.

Gregg DeMey  29:56

I mean, that's a lot of bacon.

Caryn Rivadeneira  29:58

A lot of bacon.

Gregg DeMey  29:59

So a quick theological detour, if I may, we brought up Martin Luther for a second. And he was a person with a mighty occasionally overwrought conscience. That guy, I mean, one of his profound self-identifications is like I'm simultaneously justified and totally a center. So that is like black and white tension. And I think for Luther his like the awareness that he was always failing to observe the righteous commandments of God, and was both a horrible sinner, but then saved by grace at the same time. Like, I think that's a pretty apt description of his life and personality and, by contrast, like an early Calvinism in the Heidelberg catechism, what Yeah, all right, I'm going there. The third part of the Catechism, it's all about what our response to God's graces. So how are gratitude How are obedient works out, but in the spirit of thankfulness, and that's where the Heidelberg catechism treats the 10 commandments? Not like pre-redemption, like Luther does, like I'm struggling. And I know I'm a horrible person because I'm breaking these all the time. So that's where the Lutheran catechism treats the 10 commandments. But post knowing that I'm saved by grace, hopefully gives me the fuel that my spirit needs to behave like a righteous person, not out of obligation, not out of fear of punishment, but because I'm actually aware of how deep salvation goes. And I'm thankful for this. So I think Peter is actually getting at this, like in a very early primitive way.

Jeffrey Klein  31:46

Yeah. It's also interesting to me that the Holy Spirit is Ezekiel, God promises, and he'll give his people a new heart and a new spirit within them, and they will move them to keep his law and his decrees. That's always fascinated me. I was with a guy last week that I've been priming with for three years; he's on him, he's been on his journey to Jesus. And it was a great story. He told me last week where he talked about just this past year, during COVID, he realized that drinking for him had become an issue, a problem that he, you know, his neighbors were always drinking. So he's always having these cocktails whenever his wife made a comment to him, which kind of set him off. And then he started to hear the Holy Spirit say, Hey, you know, maybe you need to chill out in this little bit. And so now, I was with him just last week, and he's telling me. Yeah, I really haven't had a drink now for he said, I lazing around with a drink. But I just it was a problem for me. I was it was something the Lord needed me to put aside. It was kind of cool that it wasn't like coming from outside him some impose the rule. It was like the Holy Spirit had changed his heart, and he had heard the Holy Spirit now, he was obedient to what he thought God had called him to do or be, which is a fascinating thing. And I remember my friend, John Crilley, who wrote the Nine Arts book, said the same thing. We have a Christian; he suddenly woke up one morning thinking maybe I shouldn't be living with my girlfriend. He didn't even have anyone tell him this. It just came on his own. And he thought maybe I should go to church. I don't know any more churches like it, but maybe I should go to one. So he went to Willow Creek for the first time, and he's like, displays like an airport like what is going on? But he said I got in there. I said, Do you think these people are telling the truth and so and then he's not? Maybe I should stop? Like, you know, I don't know there's all the all these behaviors that he came to on his own the law was now written on his heart and the Holy Spirit was convicting him from within, so his motivation was I'm going to stop doing this stuff. This is what it means to follow Jesus.

Caryn Rivadeneira  33:33

And I think that's super important to remember that what does happen at the Holy Spirit works that way because I think in our ranks we want to impose all these Christian values even on people who are not followers of Jesus but just this rush we feel like well, now they got to live right? You got to stop doing this and do it or whatever instead of remembering. Well, the Holy Spirit will work and what Yeah, you can offer suggestions if people come to you or whatever, but yeah, I think that it is important to remember that that's a

Jeffrey Klein  34:00

I'm simply 61, the Holy Spirit still working on me as far as I can tell. There are still a few things he's trying to eradicate out of my system, which I'm not sure you know; it's still a battle. Yeah. So like it's just funny that we think people are going to come in, come to Jesus and immediately be like sanctified Ah no, they're gonna have to go through this process of like, oh, Hmm, maybe I shouldn't so it's interesting to me Yeah. Like instead of imposing that on people or making them like make this a law thing we go, it's not the Holy Spirit just kind of work on them and see what happens.

Caryn Rivadeneira  34:34

well, I think it's also what helps as you start recognizing that, yeah, these laws, these rules exist for a good reason. You know, when you start realizing like it's not, you know, the Sabbath is for our own good not living covetously is for our own good honoring our parents is for our own good, not you know, being adulterous all that murder stealing.

Jeffrey Klein  34:56

Most people believe in that; I guess most people.

Caryn Rivadeneira  34:58

do believe in that one. The most. faculty. Yeah, I'm facing kidding. But yeah, I mean, but they're set up again not to just be like, ridiculous and limiting. It's for us; it's for our good

Jeffrey Klein  35:09

and trying to defend these early Guys, if they were the front of my school, which was the school that said, You're justified by the law. This makes us distinctive; we want to be Jewish is what God calls us to be in this kingdom of priests. I mean, their motivation is we don't want to lose this distinctiveness that has drawn people to us for years. And we don't want to become this, you know, just giving into Gentile culture now having all these Gentiles in here doing all this crazy stuff.

Gregg DeMey  35:33

And we should remember that probably they could make the argument that Jesus was an observant Jew. Yeah, exactly. Right. So yeah, amongst the criticisms of Jesus was occasionally like you're breaking the Sabbath, or you shouldn't have done that on the Sabbath. But it's never like you throughout the whole law,

Jeffrey Klein  35:48

right? Yeah, that's true. He was quite a righteous man. Right? I mean, right. I

Caryn Rivadeneira  35:53

mean, these guys would have still been observant Jews to I'm sure if Peter had a baby boy during this time, and they had a breast they were doing, you know, I mean, all these things were still happening. So yeah. Anyway, bring it back to circumcision.

Gregg DeMey  36:06

Yeah. All right. Well, let's take it to the end of verse 21, our stopping point for today. So when they finished, Paul and Barnabas, that is, James spoke up, brothers, he said, Listen to me, Simon, that's Peter has described as how God first intervened to choose the people for his name from the Gentiles. The words of the prophets are in in in agreement with this, as it is written in the Book of Amos.

Caryn Rivadeneira  36:35

After this, I will return and rebuild David's fallen tent, its ruins I will rebuild, and I will restore it, that the rest of humankind may seek the Lord, even all the Gentiles who bear my name, says the Lord, who does these things, things known from long ago.

Jeffrey Klein  36:52

It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God. Instead, we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals, and from what for the law of Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times as read in the synagogues and every Sabbath.

Gregg DeMey  37:16

Alright, so we've heard from Peter for a little bit from Paul and Barnabas. And now, one of the other Jerusalem church leaders, James, speaks up here.

Jeffrey Klein  37:25

But this is not James, the brother of John so

Gregg DeMey  37:29

astute listeners will remember that I think Acts chapter 12 James, the son of Zebedee, the brother of John, is one of the early Christian martyrs and dies by the sword of King Herod. So the James who speaks up here is a different James,

Jeffrey Klein  37:44

the brother of Jesus. Well,

Gregg DeMey  37:46

yes, or the

Jeffrey Klein  37:48

brother of Jesus, right? That's true. Okay, that's true, but which is great, because in John 7, right, the Jesus brothers are like, making fun of them. They're like, yeah, What's your deal? You must be knotted like what, and now here's the brother of GE; they have for their Jesus now leaving the Jerusalem church, which is awesome. Think

Gregg DeMey  38:04

of how tough that would be to take if you had to accept that your brother. The right was actually right.

Caryn Rivadeneira  38:13

Totally hard for you. Gregg is the youngest.

Gregg DeMey  38:16

That's really you could accept that your brother's the Messiah.

Jeffrey Klein  38:19

Yeah, that'd be tough.

Caryn Rivadeneira  38:23

Yeah. No, it's very sweet, though. I think this. Yeah. Do you wonder sort of where did things turn for him? You know, I mean, obviously, resurrection probably would have played a huge role in this, but at what point did he switch from? Yeah, follower and quite a follower that

Jeffrey Klein  38:41

took his brother very seriously. to being in charge.

Gregg DeMey  38:44

Yeah, indeed. So this is the James, whom we hear from later in the New Testament. Yes, the book of James James occasionally sounds quite a bit like the Sermon on the Mount. So also amazing that James, the brother of Jesus like ends up, or maybe he did all along sound sounding quite a bit like his brother.

Jeffrey Klein  39:06

Yeah, it's good. It's it's excellent.

Gregg DeMey  39:09

Yeah, I mean, it's in retrospect, that would be an amazing spiritual advantage to have grown up in the same house.

Jeffrey Klein  39:14

But it's also amazing that James wrote what he wrote because it may Martin Luther wanted to throw it out of the cannon right; he didn't like it because it was all about doing something the United soul leavings raw. So when you look at Paul, Paul was very much Hillel. Just believe, believe, right? justified by faith, like Abraham even before circumcise. Then James comes in. It's almost like he sounds a little shy, where he's like, Yeah, but you got to do something. You can't just Faith without works is kind of not a good thing. Right? So So again, this, these ancient schools of thought, influencing these guys in their Christianity and then going forward from there, and even the way they write continues to be influenced by their earliest

Caryn Rivadeneira  39:54

well, and you wonder, too, I mean, with growing up with Jesus as he'd likely did depend on all these But how much younger if the right did it finally occurred to him like, Wow, he really did live differently even as a child, you know, was there it was there that like, Hey, we wouldn't, you know, throw things at him and he barely threw it back or whatever, you know, I don't know.

Jeffrey Klein  40:12

I don't know how there are things great apocryphal stories. They're hilarious. I mean, Jesus gets the better of these guys.

Caryn Rivadeneira  40:20

Right now to say, Man, yeah, well, yeah,

Gregg DeMey  40:23

Jesus is super action hero child.

Jeffrey Klein  40:27

He is he's got you make his little he makes his little mud toy. He makes you guys on a Monday makes him walk around then. Yeah, he does some pretty toy birds that fly away.

Caryn Rivadeneira  40:39

Was the dead bird. Is it a toy brother?

Gregg DeMey  40:40

I think it's a dead bird.

Jeffrey Klein  40:42

It might play birds. It might be clever.

Caryn Rivadeneira  40:46

Birds, and then he goes into his play dragon. But he goes into this.

Jeffrey Klein  40:49

I think there's a tanner's house that dies. I call it to die; cloth dies. Ernie messes up the guy's cloth die with his son. And he kind of gets in trouble, which is interesting is like women; I thought Jesus was perfect. He's not supposed to be getting in trouble messing with people's stuff. But who knows? Maybe that was. So anyway, get a little really getting off the track anyway. So again, I'm going to just nerd out a little bit. I don't have to remember all this is I was thinking about this morning earlier, like, I know that these three laws they chose for the Jews are connected to Noah's covenant. I know that much. And don't I know here's because Noah's covenant included idolatry, sexual immorality, and sanctity of life. And that's, that's all I can remember from my time in Israel. I remember Ray talking about this revamp a long time at this point at length, how these rules are not again, these aren't just made up like, I don't know where this is coming from a scriptural understanding of how Noah, right, and then the story of Noah and the covenant that he makes, how you know, there was this idolatry, the sexual morality that happens with his son in the tent, and then the sanctity of life idea that all of the Earth is, you know, is sanctify you shouldn't be strangling things and eating blood. And that says, you know, so, again, I'm not doing a great job describing this, but I know there's a connection there; I wish I would have had time to look it all up and come in with my real genius, but

Gregg DeMey  42:13

not actually, I confess, that is ringing a bell, or I can verify that that's true. Although, when they come out of the ark, it's the first time God allows human beings to actually eat the flesh of animals but tells them not to consume the blood out of right. And there's this like, part of Jewish theology is like the life energy the life is in the blood. Right?

Jeffrey Klein  42:37

Leviticus says that. Right? So.

Gregg DeMey  42:40

Yeah, so So definitely, that's connected. My question was going to be like, hey, of these things that are mentioned? Like, are they connected to the cultic part of the law, the ethical part of the law, or the sort of cultural Jewish identity part of the law? Is there something there?

Jeffrey Klein  42:57

I think this is ethical. I say very much, right? I mean, it's not this is not a cultic thing. I've seen when you hear you see meat sacrificed to idols; it may sound cultic. But I think it's really talking about, you know, that's been offered or to the enemy, so to speak, or to it's an offering away that doesn't honor God or glorify God. So that's all part of the ethical law I there's only one God right, you shall have no other gods before me, that we shall not make any graven images or any likenesses. So I think if you if you trace these things, there are 10 commandments sounding stuff in here.

Gregg DeMey  43:30

Yeah, I promise we'll do a deeper dive on these next four things next week because these things end up making it into a letter that is dispersed among all the early believers. It just I would also observe that these four topics would keep the early Christians from needlessly offending Jewish believers, or just Jewish folks or not following Jesus, like these are probably the top of the list of like, let's avoid these things so that we don't create a giant stumbling block or wall right between us and Jewish brothers and sisters.

Jeffrey Klein  44:03

Because they're forming this one body, think about the diversity here from Gentiles and gentle way of life and then forming it into this one body and Jesus with these Jewish believers who have had all this history. So it's the same problem, really, in the church today, right? When somebody new comes in who's, had no history with the church, we often look at the cross it like what is that guy doing? Like? It's like, Doesn't he know that's not the way we behave here? Right? There's kind of this, you know, so.

Gregg DeMey  44:31

So, this taps into what I like to call the Jesus and phenomenon. Yes, I would actually like to write about this. This would be a good, probably not a whole book, but maybe a pamphlet. little pamphlet, but Jesus and many many books should be pamphlets anyways, read, Can I get an amen from the writer? Yes. And what I mean by Jesus and is like every church faces the temptation of tacking on a few things to The Gospel to make our church or denomination or our movement unique. So some classic ones, you know, in the United States would be like Jesus and no drinking alcohol. Right? Right Jesus and only classical music or Jesus and smoke machines and contemporary super contemporary rock and roll no more Jesus or Ben Jesus and no dancing Jesus and my political party, or Jesus and no women and ordained leadership of Jesus and

Jeffrey Klein  45:34

yeah, there's a million of them

Gregg DeMey  45:35

totally inclusive of all kinds of people. So I don't know that any church could be totally free of that. Right? Because he, I mean, here I would say one of our attention on unintentional ones and Elmers is like Jesus and at least a college degree. And like, I think in Elmhurst, this will be surprising to some folks; I think less than 40% of adult residents of Elmhurst have a college degree. But at Elmhurst CRC, it's like 90 plus percent.

Jeffrey Klein  46:08

That is surprising because I think the city of Wheaton I think is as high as 75%, like, postgraduate, degrees, postgraduate I mean,  graduate, I mean, college graduates, I guess. Right. So not postgraduate, but graduate degrees. I mean, it's like it's massive. Well, it's a massive

Caryn Rivadeneira  46:24

the point that's making me very nervous, because I was like, wait, that's only whatever and it shouldn't.

Gregg DeMey  46:28

Yeah, I mean, national averages, low 30s. And so I'm going off some demographic stuff, like five or six years ago, and that really, the reason I remember it is because it like struck me because our church is so high, right? And it realizes that right.

Caryn Rivadeneira  46:43

now, but we'll leave it because

Jeffrey Klein  46:44

because this church is like 70% percent, I believe, right? Or 78%. Higher Last

Gregg DeMey  46:49

time, we surveyed that it was in the 90s. Right? So that's

Jeffrey Klein  46:52

Yeah. So when I, when I preach, I have to preach at a graduate level.

Gregg DeMey  46:56

to eighth grade level.

Jeffrey Klein  46:59

Jesus and a super smart.

Gregg DeMey  47:02

Yeah, so I'm saying no one here set out to accomplish that.

Jeffrey Klein  47:05

Right. But it is a thing. But

Gregg DeMey  47:07

again, if my plumber, brother-in-law, comes here, he feels that right.

Caryn Rivadeneira  47:11

What's the difference? Right, exactly. Right. And I think even the church, you know, I'm just thinking about, you know, Bible churches or whatnot, you know, no, crazy. We're just the Bible. A church like that. It's gonna be Jesus and all sorts of things. I just think that one my mom grew up in, drinking, no dancing, no movies now. Yeah, exactly.

Jeffrey Klein  47:29

Yeah. My father, when I first met my father-in-law, yeah, amazing guy. But he had no movies; he hated movies, he thought they were totally the devil, and he would not refuse to watch him if the whole family gathered to watch a movie. He would just stubbornly sit in the other room. Yes, I'm not doing this. And that, you know, like drinking was the absolute amount my wedding there was no alcohol. If I wanted my father to pay for it, there was gonna be no alcohol, no dancing either. So there's no date, so I don't know what we did. You must have sat there and stood there and looked at each other. That was much more Christian, you know, we were much more Jesus He then without any too much dancing or chaos going on. So yeah, it's just funny how those things become part of our faith. And we each have our, you know, it's funny one person years ago said everyone's got their either their terrible 12 their naughty nine, their sinful seven, or their filthy five. And just depends on which ones are your pet once you hang on to the same father-in-law. I grew up in a reformed Dutch house where the Sabbath day was like, I couldn't go get a newspaper on Sunday or go out to eat or ride the boat or, you know, and so my father-in-law, I remember the first time I was at his house, and he went out and started working in the garden on Sunday morning for church. I was like, that was a Christian. What's he doing in his garden on Sunday morning? I was getting upset. And you know, and then he announced after church we're going out to eat. And I was like, oh,

Gregg DeMey  48:48

are we on vacation here?

Jeffrey Klein  48:49

I was literally like, like; I was flabbergasted. I'm like, Oh, my goodness. I don't know. I don't know if I can do this. Yeah. So

Caryn Rivadeneira  48:56

really good examples. Yeah. Right.

Jeffrey Klein  48:58

Those are all the Jesus and things right, you're right. Yeah. That I went out to eat, and I didn't choke on my food night live through the experience. Now, I might have been out a few more times in my life on Sunday. I will tell you; I hit in my car. So my wife and I were like, We were brand new youth pastors at this church. We just got married, and I was, you know, I was full. I was fully ordained now. I've been ordained. And so my wife comes out of church one Sunday with me, and she's like, we got to stop in Maya and get some stuff. I have nothing in the house for lunch. I'm like, honey, we cannot go to Meijer on Sunday. These people, I'm a pastor, they can't see me admire, and I literally stayed in the car hidden the car.

Jeffrey Klein  49:39

This was I was just so scared of 

Gregg DeMey  49:41

good job of  job scapegoating.

Jeffrey Klein  49:44

How do you get in there? No one knows who you are. You sneak the food out, and I'll just stay in 

Caryn Rivadeneira  49:48

Meijer makes it even worse.

Gregg DeMey  49:50

These days, you could just wear a mask, and you're all good.

Caryn Rivadeneira  49:52

That's true.

Jeffrey Klein  49:53

I mean, I think it is some of these stories. It's funny. All the Jesus and things that I've put in my own life are the fears like someone else. See me doing this. the thing that like, Oh, no. And I couldn't remember my first wedding to like being a pastor; I was week ordained. And the dancing started, and I remember sitting at my table thinking, Okay, like, how do you act if you're a pastor, and you are now the dancing is going on? Everyone's having fun. Like, normally I'd be out there, dancing. But now I'm a pastor; I'm, I'm the Reverend who did this ceremony. And I don't know, like, I had this whole, like, his moment of like, freaking out. I got up and danced. I just wanted to get up and dance, but

Gregg DeMey  50:29

you join the band. That's what you do, Jeff,

Jeffrey Klein  50:31

is that we do. And then you can be a real Jesus follower in the band. Remember, I use all the keys on the piano. So it's not so great for me in the band? Yeah.

Gregg DeMey  50:41

Yeah, so this is a struggle for all of us. For every church, we probably have our own local church list of things that go along, and we're never going to get rid of it. But I think it's part of our spiritual call to like, push against it or fight against this impulse or keep knocking down or pushing to arm's length. The things that crop up, for sure.

Caryn Rivadeneira  51:03

And I'd be interested to hear from newer people or visitors what they think are Jesus' answers because it's, I think it's even hard for us to identify some of them. And I think it's very easy when we go to visit another church or, Yeah, run across another kind of Christian to point it out. So

Gregg DeMey  51:17

yeah, I would think outsiders these days, just honestly, the weight that even the word evangelical I mean, we talked about this a month or so ago, like it's Jesus and vote red. Yeah. Be red, wear red. Right. Yeah. And that's, that's the cultural perception, right? Whereas I would want to take the position of like, no, that's one of the easiest pitfalls to fall into.

Jeffrey Klein  51:41

Yeah, there's, yeah, that's a dicey one, right. And we're supposed to belong to the kingdom of Jesus and be working to build the kingdom of Jesus. But often, we're working in bill other kingdoms. And I think the pathway there is to be politically aligned properly or something. Yeah. Yep. And we've seen now we have another president who, boy, he's his flaws are showing, and just like the other one did different flaws. 

Gregg DeMey  52:04

What are you talking about?

Jeffrey Klein  52:04

He's got some flaws. Wow. Surprising. I'm surprised. Yeah. Yeah. So Jeff,

Gregg DeMey  52:11

I'm gonna remind you right now never to run for president.

Jeffrey Klein  52:14

Yes, I would be in trouble in no time. They would dig into my history. And I say it'd be clips of me saying all kinds of crazy crap.

Caryn Rivadeneira  52:24

It would derail before

Jeffrey Klein  52:25

I would be derailed within a couple of weeks. That would totally take me down.

Gregg DeMey  52:28

Yeah. So I'm gonna leave us with a question this week. So James, the brother of Jesus, does propose these four things. And again, next week, we'll kind of get into this. Is this an example of Jesus? And even if these things do tap into the ethical law? Or are these things part of part and parcel of with Jesus? Right, because those are the things we want with Jesus, not Jesus. And yeah, pin the tail on the gospel.

Jeffrey Klein  53:03

Yeah. Yeah. It's a great question. And like, if the Holy Spirit's within me, right, this almost becomes part of my natural like, hmm, you know, you start to the Holy Spirit's prompting, you're hopefully helping you think this way, right. But I mean, this is gonna be imposed from the outside. Or they're gonna say; these are the things we're asking you to not do, right as a part of, you're following Jesus. And

Caryn Rivadeneira  53:25

yet he's suggesting these things as a way of not making it difficult for them. I mean, I think that is such a beautiful statement. And so that we forget to have, you know, let's not make it difficult for people to come to Jesus or to walk in our church or whatever, right. And so it is interesting that these are the things that he's like, this isn't going to be hard.

Jeffrey Klein  53:44

I love that phrase. That's a great phrase, fantastic.

Gregg DeMey  53:47

Somebody wants to refer to this passage as the easiest new members class ever.

Jeffrey Klein  53:51

Yeah. Yeah. What do we have to do to be part of the chariot?

Gregg DeMey  53:55

Here are your envelopes. And here's the four different pathways to volunteer and

Jeffrey Klein  54:02

yeah, yeah. Jesus, and,

Gregg DeMey  54:05

well, wherever you're listening today, friends, pray that you have some fresh experience with the grace of God. That's ultimately what we're all banking on. Not all the Jesus and stuff, just mostly the Jesus part. Yep. All right. Thanks to Billy Heschel for getting us set up and going here today. We had some technical difficulties on the front end, and Billy faithfully pushed us through. So thanks, Billy, and much grace to you all as you make your way through this week. Peace.