Acts 15:22-41 - The Letter

Summary:
Curious rules, sharp disagreements, and apostles and prophets who divide and conquer -- sort of. That's what the second half of Acts 15 is all about. Join Gregg DeMey (Lead Pastor), Kyle Groters (Student Ministries Coordinator), and Caryn Rivadeneira (Director of Care and Worship Planning) as they wade deeper in.

Today's Hosts
Gregg DeMey, Lead Pastor
Caryn Rivadeneira, Director of Care
Kyle Groters, Student Ministries Coordinator

Questions/Comments:  We'd love to hear from you! Email ASK.

Note: Wade in the Word is a weekly podcast designed to take a deep dive into scripture for the weekend message. Join our pastors, staff, and occasional special guests as we reflect together.

Wade in the Word podcast is a production of Elmhurst Christian Reformed Church, located in Elmhurst, IL. Wade in the Word is produced and audio-engineered by Kyle Olson, Technical Director. For more information about Elmhurst CRC or to find out about other tools and resources to grow you and your family in faith, visit elmhurstcrc.org.

Transcript

The Rest of Acts 15 

Fri, 9/17 9:08AM • 1:00:01

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

church, people, barnabas, paul, happening, word, kyle, god, holy spirit, silas, read, speaking, bible, table, verse, issues, reformation, worship, animals, judas

SPEAKERS

Caryn Rivadeneira, Gregg DeMey, Kyle Groters

Gregg DeMey  00:08

Hey folks, welcome to LPC or C's weekly Wade in the Word podcast I'm sitting here with Caryn Rivadeneira, Director of Care. Hello, hello. Good to be here. Yeah. Good Morning Morning. And with a fabulous Kyle Groters.

Kyle Groters  00:25

Glad to be here.

Gregg DeMey  00:26

Yeah, was leading the charge in youth ministries these days on the cusp of graduating from seminary.

Kyle Groters  00:32

Indeed, finally, me too.

Gregg DeMey  00:39

Have I not said this before? I don't know like you're on this all the

Caryn Rivadeneira  00:42

time. On the cusp, a little less. My classes start again next week. So I've had a nice couple of weeks off.

Gregg DeMey  00:50

Yeah, so it's fresh on the brain, it's fresh on the brain. So speaking of fresh on the brain, if you if you tune into this on the regular, just a gentle reminder of why we're doing this, I believe that as we come back together as a church, that is the Bible is God's word, that is the main thing that is going to bring us together and keep us together. And we just want to do all our power to gather everybody in our congregation and community around the same pieces of Scripture. So if you happen to hear this before, Sunday, September 19, awesome. Our goal is that you would hear this and connect it to the worship experience. And if it's beforehand, hopefully, that it expands your ability to participate and kind of be active and vital on Sunday morning worship, and you listen to it afterward. That it may deepen your understanding of the Scripture that was at the center of our Sunday morning worship service.

Caryn Rivadeneira  01:43

So I've been hearing from people who've been doing it and how it's really beneficial because you come into worship sort of primed and already think about this stuff. Maybe heard a word from God about some things, and then I don't know. So I think it's it's a great practice. Anyway, for us to

Gregg DeMey  01:59

All right, well, if that's what you're doing, like tell some friends spread the word. Because not only as a pastor but as part of my job as a Director of Worship, totally keyed into wanting, desiring, like as many people in the sanctuary and Sunday, like already primed and open-hearted and ready to go. And if this little podcast can be part of helping that, wow, that'd be awesome. So we are going to dive into the second half of Acts chapter 15. I really do love how just as we're coming back indoors for worship, and all together with the vision of our elders for a unified worship service that the Holy Spirit saw fit to have us land in Acts chapter 15. Because parallel things are going on in the early church about figuring out how to be in it all together. So, Karen, if you would kick us off in Acts 15, starting at verse 22. Sure thing.

Caryn Rivadeneira  02:55

Then the apostles and elders with the whole church decided to choose some of their own men and send them to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas. They chose Judas also called our Sabbath and Silas men who were leaders among the believers. with them, they sent the following letter.

Gregg DeMey  03:12

The apostles and the elders, your brothers to the Gentile believers in Antioch, Syria and solicit them greetings. We've heard that someone out from us without our authorization and disturbed you, troubling your minds by what they said. So we all agreed to choose men and send them to you with our dear friends Barnabas and Paul, men who risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore, we are sending Judas and Silas to confirm by word of mouth what we are writing. Now, it seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us not to burden you with anything beyond the following requirements. You are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals, and sexual immorality; you will do well to avoid these things. Farewell. That is a short and very direct, pretty, pretty sweet letter. So just a little reminder earlier in Acts Chapter 15, James, the brother of Jesus, had stood up after Paul and Barnabas had spoken after Peter had given his testimony from his direct experiences with the Holy Spirit. James cites the Book of Amos about how God is always envisioned expanding his family to include the Gentiles and then recommended these four things, abstaining from food sacrificed to idols from consuming blood from the meat of strangled animals and sexual immorality. And the council pretty much verbatim follows James as counsel puts these things down into writing, then sends it off to the Gentile churches with both Paul and Barnabas and then some extra witnesses Judas and Silas, to confirm that This is what we all agreed on. So I think it's a good question like, what's up with the four things on this list? Like if we compose a letter in North America and 2021 about how to maintain unity or minimize disagreements and maximize peace? Maybe one of those four things would appear on the list, but I'm guessing the other three would not. So what's up with these things? What's what is going on?

Caryn Rivadeneira  05:30

I mean, it just seems like it had to have been very in the moment and timely, like, and very, very culturally specific, because it is a weird, Kyle and I were laughing before it's like, one of these things is not like the other you know, it's like, it sort of makes you wonder why how did these all come together? Were these things happening on tables? I hope now you know, what is this? So that's what I think is interesting that I would guess that they were very of the time, you know, the main things causing the biggest issues? Because otherwise it Yeah. It seems a little strange.

Kyle Groters  06:05

Well, yeah, and even of these four things, three of them, we see multiple times like food sacrifice to idols we see elsewhere in the New Testament. Paul talks about that a number of times, sexual immorality all over the place we see that, but even from blood like that's back, we get that in Genesis and the New Covenant. God tells Noah don't do that. Right. Like that's an early command. But then we have the meat of strangled animals, which kind of blue that's not in the law anywhere specifically. So, you know something is happening culturally that is going on that. That's they're setting, sir. Yeah. And they're trying to invite the Gentiles in so that they are not offending or causing greater issues for the Jewish brothers.

Gregg DeMey  06:53

Yeah. Yeah, for sure. I think this is like the common denominator; follow them. It's respectful toward the original Christians who had a Jewish background. So these are all things that were really hard for observant Jews to get over and get past and in the Gentile world, like, for sure, like the Roman attitudes toward sexual behavior and sexual immorality was like, totally different than what the standards would have been in the Jewish community. So I like that one's pretty obvious, right? I think the other three the common denominator is his blood. So we have food sacrificed to idols, and, and blood. I mean, not to get too graphic, but if you would strangle the animal to death, like all of its lifeblood is still inside of it. And then if you prepare and eat that animal, like, the lifeblood is still there. So who knows if Gentiles had the practice of like, directly consuming blood and, and like, obviously, even like kosher meats, there's no way to drain every ounce of blood out of the animal. Right? So I'm guessing there was some, like understanding that, or provision of that for that. But yeah, you mentioned the New Covenant; think Genesis chapter nine after Noah comes out of the ark. God. That's interesting feature. Like, probably everybody was a vegetarian before this, God kind of permits human beings. And there's perhaps a shortage of animals at this point to start. But maybe they've been eyeballing certain animals on the ark, I don't know.

Kyle Groters  08:39

I'm super hungry.

Gregg DeMey  08:41

chickens, they're noisy, and they look amazing. But God kind of gives the blessing to consume animals that point but makes clear, like, do not like drink the blood of the animals or like play fast and loose with the lifeblood of the animal, like still respect the living thing that the animal is.

Caryn Rivadeneira  09:05

I wonder to me when you bring up you know, kosher, you know, even today, part of the kosher butcher butchering process is it's generally more humane. I'm just trying to think about how many animals you could even strangle to death. And it's probably not that many. And I'm wondering if there was some kind of brutal I mean, I'm hoping that I guess you could, but it would be a pretty brutal process for most animals. So I'm wondering if there was even just a kindness anti-cruelty thing and this that maybe that was a Yeah, I don't know. I mean, I'm picturing somebody strangling a goat or something. I mean, that would be Yikes. It would take a long time. And yeah, I don't know. I don't know. I didn't grow up on a farm.

Kyle Groters  09:42

Road. Yeah, I mean, the Jewish sacrifice practice it's quick. Yeah, because the artery, and they beat out almost immediately. Yep. That's how it's supposed to work with ritual. So

Gregg DeMey  09:54

I'm going to read the message version of these last verses a second because I think you're doing Peterson who do this like, takes the extra step of trying to like bridge the cultural gap for the modern people. So he translates it this way. Be careful not to get involved in activities connected with idols. Avoid serving food that's offensive to Jewish Christians, blood, for instance, and guard the morality of sex and marriage. These guidelines are sufficient to keep relations friendly, congenial between us and God be with you. So, it's a very, I think, lovely way of bridging the gap.

Caryn Rivadeneira  10:34

I think though, too, sometimes. I mean, we have to remember, and you'd mentioned this earlier, just the the sexual behavior of the quote unquote, gender or I was gonna say pagans, but the Gentiles of this day, it was really bad, like, so I think sometimes when they talk about the sexual immorality, they're not just talking about premarital sex. I mean, that certainly could be included, but we look at it is like, two high schoolers in the back of a car. This is like some, really, right. I mean, there's stuff going on with boys and children. And I mean, it was a very different Church

Gregg DeMey  11:07

of ritual pagan. Worship in temples.

Caryn Rivadeneira  11:11

Yeah. So I think I mean, it's, it's not that some of it is not included. But I think our mind tends to just go to the very like Puritan thing of making sure you wait till marriage. And I think this speaks to something even more abusive and oppressive as well, that I wouldn't, you know, because you read, you read how even what was going on the culture is, and it's absolutely horrifying. Again, just that our mind goes to one certain place, and this I think, was also speaking against the abuse for women and children.

Gregg DeMey  11:43

Yeah, yeah, for sure. I wasn't necessarily planning to kind of dive into sexual ethics. But I think sometimes we default to this notion of just like black and white, like, either. Sex is like writing good sexual behavior, or sex; sexual behavior is, oh, my goodness, like, horrible and destructive. And I think it's probably much more helpful to think of sexual behavior, like on a continuum of health and life-giving behavior.

Caryn Rivadeneira  12:16

For sure. No, and that was more. That was not a criticism of Eugene Peterson, but just how he added the word Merrick, he kind of framed it. I love Eugene Peterson. He was a genius. But just held that particular framing of the verse, anyway. Sorry.

Gregg DeMey  12:30

No. So one other amazing phrase in here is it seemed good to the Holy Spirit into us. So I would love it if we had a verbatim of how they discerned the Holy Spirit's leading and guidance or green light or thumbs up because like, obviously, like James said, these entire words, but then they ultimately take them to be kind of like the gift of the Holy Spirit. Right, right.

Kyle Groters  12:58

I just like the word seemed like, he said it, and everybody kind of stopped for a second looked around like, That's alright. Alright, we'll go on with it. Yes, this is yes, it seems right.

Gregg DeMey  13:09

Yeah. Yeah. So interestingly, if any of you are listening, you know, have said on a board or in meetings, as I would say, sometimes this happens, like, maybe not on this profound of a level. Still, there's moments where, like, someone will say something or, like, a number of things will converge and you feel like, wow, the truth just entered the room and like, look around, and you can kind of see on everybody's body language like, yes. Like, I didn't foresee this happening. But yes, like this just happened.

Caryn Rivadeneira  13:39

For sure. Well, and Jeff talked about this in his devotional this week, and you know, this reminder of like, when we're in meetings, like invite the Holy Spirit into this, you know, and it was funny because I was listening to it just as I was going to a meeting. And so it was lovely to sit down and act like I had this great reminder of, like, everyone, let's begin with a prayer. But anyway, I credited Jeff with a reminder, but it's true because it's, we forget, you know, not that. There's always some, you know, exact agenda we need to follow, but especially when it's a kind of a creative meeting and a planning meeting like,

Kyle Groters  14:10

Yeah, right.

Gregg DeMey  14:13

Yeah, one of my favorite prayers at the close of a meeting or a decision-making session is for the Holy Spirit to give life to the Holy Spirit, lead, and do good things. Because sometimes in the moment, we don't even know what they are yet, like Time will tell and to, like, very gracefully, like kill the bad ideas or the ideas that are just us or the ideas that aren't going to be spiritually fruitful. So, Holy Spirit all the way through on the front end for guidance and on the backside to strip away our illusions and bring to life the real stuff. That's actually good.

Caryn Rivadeneira  14:52

Yeah, it's good.

Gregg DeMey  14:57

Let us forge ahead. With how the early church kind of shared and processed the contents of this letter, Kyle, if you'd be so kind, verses 30 to 35 Yeah.

Kyle Groters  15:12

Picking up at first 30 so the men were sent off and went down to Antioch, where they gathered the church together and delivered the letter that people read it and we're glad for its encouraging message. Judas and Silas, who were themselves prophets said much to encourage and strengthen them believers. After spending some time there, they were sent off by the believers with the blessing of peace to return to those who had sent them. But Silas decided to remain there. Paul and Barnabas remained at Antioch where they and many others taught and preached the word of the Lord.

Gregg DeMey  15:46

Alright, so several early Christian notables superstars even are mentioned here. Paul and Barnabas and then Judas and Silas. Silas will start to get a little more press from here on out I think I mentioned this in the last Sunday sermon like New Testament names are hard to keep track of, like there's not a million Barnaby or Barnabas.

Kyle Groters  16:13

nice

Caryn Rivadeneira  16:16

Barnaby the

Kyle Groters  16:19

card,

Gregg DeMey  16:21

actually, to Barnabas Barnaby with a Why is an actual English name, which is fantastic. It's so funny. But there are a whole lot of Julius's. I mean, there's several Jesus's and Bard Jesus's there's many John's there's many James. So this particular Judas, I think earlier next 15, was introduced as Judas, the son of bar Sabbath. So I don't think we know anything else about him I suppose to paratus not Judas, the son of rhapis. Maybe Brabus had a son named Judas. Okay, different. I just think it'd be like having a yes. In a generation ago having a Johnny or a Steve

Caryn Rivadeneira  17:07

supertone, Emma, Jennifer and her. Yes.

Gregg DeMey  17:10

So I think it's wise that the church here like, taps into like, I don't think this is a power play at all, like, Hey, we're sending out the famous people because you have to believe the famous people but I don't know that they had, you know, for sure, not fortune, but probably just a good reputation. So sending people like who have good reputations and Christian community to be the message bearers and shares and validate it, and kind of leverage their friendship and sort of spiritual mentorship and like parenthood for all these early believers to help convey this message, I think is what's going on here. There is one little verse in here that you read verse 34. If you look in the footnotes of a study Bible, it will say something like some manuscripts, some manuscripts contain this verse. Which kind of begs the question like, what some verses are maybe in the Bible? Yeah. How could that be? Is this trouble you, Kyle?

Kyle Groters  18:20

No, it doesn't, does not trouble me. Having spent a good amount of time in the last few years, studying more in-depth, a lot of those particular verses and the manuscript history, and knowing how everything comes down throughout time and over geography and people, it doesn't troubled me. Indeed, because when it comes to significant meaning and what's actually going on, there are never points at which we're left confused or wondering, has something been shaken in the core of what we believe because of these manuscript differences.

Caryn Rivadeneira  18:55

But for some people, it is super troubling, right? Because it speaks to right. Oh, no, is it available? Like what does this mean? You know, that are available? And yeah, I?

Gregg DeMey  19:05

Yeah, we're in so work so happily, no. The core bit of Christian belief hinges on whether Silas remained in Antioch or returned to Jerusalem. Right. And it does bring up the question though, like, Okay, if God's word is infallible, how is it that God seems to be okay with using like regular human processes, like not only to deliver his inspired word, but then to like, copy and transmit and bring down the corridors of history, his word and if God was really involved, what we expect every manuscript and copy that was ever made, no matter what the standards or skill of the copyist, that they would be identical. Maybe not.

Caryn Rivadeneira  19:55

I mean, if you literally exactly believe that, then yeah, I guess that's where your brain has to take. You that if the Bible can't contain any sort of error, but if we Yeah, if we trust though that again, the Holy Spirit This is a living breathing book so the Holy Spirit is present and speaking through it as we read and all of that. Yeah, somebody along the line probably forgot to copy down that verse or decided they didn't need it

Gregg DeMey  20:22

or thought Paul and Barnabas weren't Antioch, Silas must have stayed there too, because he and Paul are just about to like go exactly. So well. Yeah,

Caryn Rivadeneira  20:30

I think it's harder with the woman caught in adultery is that the other? I mean, that's the bigger story that's up for debate. So it's harder when it's an entire especially important story sort of that you go, Oh, wait. So what does that one mean? A line like this, I feel like Yeah.

Gregg DeMey  20:48

Anyway, right. So we're not even getting into issues of translation here. Like we're just talking about, like the Bible right in the original, like the Greek language. So probably be a bit of trivia that most of our listeners won't be aware of but like the book of Acts as far and away, the most variations and aberrations, deletions, insertions, like compared to any other book of the New Testament. So I think partly that speaks to just how widely circulated and transcribed This was in the early church.

Kyle Groters  21:25

Yeah, I mean, it was meant to be a history and a narrative that is going to get out and be disseminated in a way that more so than even we see with the epistles because the epistles are written to a specific group of people in a specific context. And so they're copying and wider dissemination takes a lot longer. Where's the book of Acts? It is for the early church as its history. And so it gets out there. And we have a lot more access to manuscripts of the book of Acts just numerically speaking, which also means we can see there's a lot more stuff going on within the manuscript movement over time than we do and say, the epistles because we don't have that much. We have clear evidence, but we don't have as many copies of it running around as we do the book backs,

Caryn Rivadeneira  22:08

and they didn't have Xerox machines. Everything was happy, you know, probably mostly in the dark with a poorly lit. When we have Xerox machines. Yeah, exactly. Suit instead of weird term. Copier. I think that has mimeograph this year. Oh, wow. Do I still? That's funny. But anyway, Xerox machine. Xerox had not been invented at this point. I know Xerox, I've never used Syrah. He's never known that. Yeah, we don't have him here. But um, yeah, I think we tend to forget that. So yeah. Unless we want to believe probably is the Mormons do that like an angel came down and he, you know, wrote these out with with a tip that is

Gregg DeMey  22:44

not the Christian view on the matter. So Acts 15, verse 34, I mean, illustrates, I think beautifully, that infallible does not mean that every little jot and letter like dropped out of heaven directly. Right, we believe God uses works with people's personality, their native gifts. I mean, God used Luke, who, and it was his story until I like to deliver both the gospel and the super influential. It's not like God just used a random person, and like, dropped all the stories into their mind and use them like a typewriter to, you know, get them down for the church's benefit. So I take great comfort in this because God worked with us the same way. Like, he doesn't overwhelm us. He doesn't override our personality, like we don't need to become, you know, thoughtless mindless creatures so that the Holy Spirit can flow through us quite the contrary, got the lights, to partner with us and the good things he put inside of us already. So it's comes up in new members classes that what we mean to say by infallible is that the Bible is infallible in what it intends to teach that God's word is infallible in what God purposes for it to do, in revealing himself to the church and in growing, shaping, forming, leading and guiding the church. But that begs a huge question. So what does God intend to teach with any particular book or passage or, you know, set of verses? That's one of the things that keeps me coming back to church. Right, because that's a question that the needle might even move a little bit as the years and the centuries turn,

Caryn Rivadeneira  24:37

for sure. Now, I think that I mean, the word infallible and an errand get. They trip a lot of people up because right when you're a Bible literalist, there I can't say the word right now the wrist, whatever you take it literally literalist. Thank you. Sounds like a literalist would be you're just tearing up exactly.

Gregg DeMey  24:56

window, your car

Caryn Rivadeneira  25:00

Yeah, exactly Sorry, I've had a little fuzz in my headphone too. So I couldn't even hear myself as I was saying it. But I will in Big Gulp writes. But it's such a sad way, I think, to look at the Bible, though, as though every detail needs to be correct and exact and perfect instead of looking at it at the whole, and especially since the Bible is mostly story. You know, even in that there's a lot of room for interpretation and imagination in the spirit to work.

Kyle Groters  25:27

It's one of those few areas where the English translations of the texts are great, and they give us certainly the full sense of what God is doing. But the Lord having knowledge, or being able to sit with somebody who has some knowledge of the visual languages really does help with a lot of some of the inerrancy issues that come up, even just going through the Old Testament with numbers and places and names. And having a bit of, you know, extra knowledge there helps, which is why there are smart people out there who do that work and help us when they translate the text in English, and then can give us some of this information.

Caryn Rivadeneira  26:02

And why it's frustrating when you know, somebody says what the bite what this really says and great, you know, it's something totally different. You're like, well, then why do I say this? But again, that's a whole other issue of translations. And

Gregg DeMey  26:12

just in the English language, there's, I mean, now, I mean, nearly 600 years of translation history and some of the things that maybe worked their way into our translations, as we inherited from translations and other languages. Yep. So the Italians have a phrase, the translator is a traitor, which is a little more lyrical in Italian. But it's true. Like you can't get a perfect word for word like going from one language to another, which think Martin Luther had the goal of, I mean, he knew it was unrealistic, like having every Christian like knowing Greek and Hebrew, because he was like, on the record of like, God speaks Hebrew God speak. So it's, I mean, I roll my eyes a little bit, but like, there's a sense in which That's true. But there's also a sense in which like, No, we don't all have to learn Greek in Hebrew to understand like the word of God, because there is something so lasting and durable and eternal and powerful about it, that it jumps over all the cultural hurdles at the same time. So it's great that we have a small set of people who do, right. And it's great that you know, half the worship service doesn't have in, in Hebrew or ancient Greek. Although that'd be pretty cool.

Kyle Groters  27:27

Yeah, I was just going to say,

Gregg DeMey  27:29

let's do, yeah, you can go to a Greek Wedding and have that experience, if you've never had that experience for a fun thing, or two privates fun. Alright, so in Acts 15, the early church just received this word from God. And then we get a little insight into how they share it and spread it. I mean, they put it in a letter, they send out representatives to speak to it and endorse it and build the So I think those are important things. And the whole point of this is, again, to bring the whole community together so that Gentiles and Jews can be in relationship with each other, mean be at table together in one another's homes, and even probably more significantly, like be at table together in worship, and at Jesus table together. The irony of like, abstain from blood, and then like the blood of Christ, being at the center of the crucial table like that irony has never struck me so hard in the last couple of weeks, kind of mulling over this chapter deeply.

Caryn Rivadeneira  28:34

Yeah. Yeah, that is a really interesting little thing that Jesus didn't say, this is my blood and Oh,

Gregg DeMey  28:44

yeah. So just would want to recognize that every church, every community, like in the English speaking world, and the Spanish speaking world and the Indonesian speaking world, like, we all face our trials and things to be upset with each other about and sad divisions. Just wanted to wonder with you for a moment about, like, your opinion on where our current fault lines and like places of a fraying lie. And again, I think at the core of X 15 is a sense of belonging, like who really belongs, and what things would get you kicked to the outside, or would we, rightly or wrongly, kind of identify like, oh, if you're doing that, like, we can't enjoy table fellowship with you, or we're gonna avoid you or so some of this is subconscious or unconscious, I think are even unspoken. But these days, just with our sad political divisions, like some of that has leaked into church, surely, and some of that is probably more easily verbalized these days, because we're sitting here with you, Kyle, I mean, there's the perennial issue of Young people and older people. Yep. Right. And it's the job of every emerging generation to kind of discern like what part of the wisdom of the elders? Do we accept and internalize and carry on with us? And then what part is not going to serve well in the world that is emerging? And What part do we deliberately not carry, not carry on or internalize? As far as I can tell, that's the job of every single generation, and every single older generation, because we have quotes from ancient Greek people saying, like, I kids these days, have you seen the I want disciplined and which is just fantastic. But just points out that there's nothing new about this, like this just happens with the way time and society and culture move. So anyway, thoughts about what currently divides us?

Kyle Groters  30:55

My gut reaction is when you ask your fault lines, do you want the list in alphabetical order? Where would you like it? Just I

Gregg DeMey  31:02

want the top three. Oh, yeah. Right. I mean, I'm sure we could go more than 10? Yes, sure.

Kyle Groters  31:07

Sorry. I was talking with the student actually, religion assignment for his college religion class recently. And he said, Kyle, what is something that we disagree on today in American culture that isn't religious or political. And I had to think for a little while because he said it has to be something meaningful. And almost everything these days has become either political or religious, or some mix thereof. So top three, certainly political, and that's too broad. But even in our current age today, things that may not have been strictly political has become very political. Many things, right. Um, even whether or not we're wearing masks in church, right here, we have a mixing of the religious, so to speak, with the political and science as well, that there's significant disagreements about so a fault line certainly would be politics and all that can fall under it, I would say.

Caryn Rivadeneira  32:07

Yeah, goodness. Yeah. It's, I mean, I would whatever, I'm sorry to keep bringing it back to sex, but certainly sexual ethics, LGBTQ issues. I mean, it's just mainly for communities of faith in various communities of faith, because, I mean, there are a million different opinions and views and practices throughout. But yeah, I mean, I'm sitting here with my mask around my wrist. And, you know, just when you said the thing about who, you know, could come to the table right now, I mean, not communion table, but you know, who would you sit and eat with right now, I mean, that's a very legitimate thing for people that, you know, there are people who are saying, if you're not vaccinated, I can't get you know, together with you. Because I'm, you know, with my elderly mom, or my little kids, or what, you know, and so people are getting hurt and offended by that, but yet, to some people, it's this, you know, it's a life and death issue. So, you know, it's, that's a very significant Faultline of, you know, I just, I'm hearing really sad stories about relationships with people, you know, that are breaking down because of this. And, you know,

Gregg DeMey  33:09

yeah. Oh, boy. Yeah, there's, there are so many things. So when you say just like political things, like if I wanted to start a disagreement, I would just like, like, talk amongst yourselves, Joe Biden is good for America. Talk amongst yourself, like the lasting impact of Donald Trump's legacy is going to be positive.

Kyle Groters  33:31

So like, I just don't think it's when she says those things.

Gregg DeMey  33:33

are so broad. Right. Right, that part of the divisive power of that is just like, asking that question sends people to 12 different issues. And depending on where your mind or strong feelings would gravitate like that guides your so one way of I think staying united is to I mean, to try to avoid, like situations like that, or discussions like that, where you're just trying to pass judgment on an a president's entirety of his leadership. And like, if you can hone in or focus on something so that this would create great agreement, but like, much more constructive to have a conversation about, like, what's happening in Afghanistan, and how it played out. But even that is super complicated because there are 20 years of history in it. Sure. Right, but much more helpful to have a conversation about the vaccination mandate, again, super complicated, but there's at least, at least a potential to have a constructive conversation rather than being like, let's give a thumbs up or thumbs down to the entirety of but that's, that's what poll questions do. And like, you read the news, and it's like the latest poll numbers. President Biden's approval rating is bright, you know, Acts.

Caryn Rivadeneira  34:46

Yeah. And I think sort of more of those open-ended specific questions like I was reading a little bit this morning about California is recall, that's not election vote that they had yesterday and just reading that the cost of that a lot. And so there was just a line, and the thing I was reading was, was that wise use of money? And so I'm like, that's, to me. That was a great question that, yeah, it's going to cause some debate and division, because some people would say, of course, it wasn't. But in the state with, you know, significant things. And so, if you can frame that, but again, it's also framing the conversation you have with people, you know, and maybe even laying out some ground rules of here. We're going to talk about this. But you know, let's try and keep it. I don't know, of course, I love that kind of conversation.

Kyle Groters  35:30

Well, yeah, I think it's important when having difficult conversations, especially within a church context, when we're seeking fellowship and seeking the table to come to the table together. So that we do fully appreciate the legitimate nature of complication when it comes to these issues. Very rarely are a lot of these things black and white. And, and my somewhat limited experience, whenever somebody engages one of these issues in a very black or white way, it's a big red flag because there's a very little discussion to be had in that environment. And usually, that's not the point. Whereas when there's a more specific question that allows for some legitimate grayness and some legitimate, there are both good things and bad things and unclear things, including things happening. And if we can unpack that a little bit, we might make some progress as opposed to this is good, go or this is bad go.

Gregg DeMey  36:27

Let me give an example of how I failed at this gloriously recently. So I tried to start a conversation, I'll name my convert, I will not name my conversation partners, but some from church, some not from the church. And I had just learned earlier in that day that the city of Portland and part of the government, the state government of Oregon, in response to the Texas heartbeat law, was banning both interstate commerce and trade with Texas and was no longer going to allow anyone from like the City of Portland, like in official capacity. I forget if the stretch to the state government to like fly back and like Oregon was not going to fund anybody to go to Texas. So I kind fascinating, slight, slightly appalled by this be just on the notion of like, wow, if our political differences are going to start running that deep. We have just every city and state in the Union, like effectively trying to divorce the city and states that they agree with, like, where does that and so I thought that would be an interesting conversation. Like, like, is this going to be a trend? Like, what would this do? But the cause of it? The Texas abortion law, like for me was kind of in the background. Right. Right. But that is such a contentious issue, that it wasn't possible to have a conversation about what I thought would be a fascinating thing, just because everybody's feelings about pro-lifei women's rights. When does the life of a human being really begin? Like, all of that came screaming to the front? Yeah, yes. Caryn. quite nice. How did you not see that?

Caryn Rivadeneira  38:27

Yeah. Right. But I think to your point that like, that is a very legitimate Yes. states and cities sanctioning each other. I mean, I didn't know that that happened. That is really you're right. And that is a worthy conversation. But yeah, for probably framing that, you know, or whatever, when you when it's around an issue like abortion, you know, kind of saying ahead of time, I realized that whole other thing is different conversation. But this is just about this and whatever. You're good at coming up with other examples. Maybe

Gregg DeMey  38:55

I tried and the whole point is like I failed.

Caryn Rivadeneira  38:59

Give it time. Yeah, yeah, down the road.

Kyle Groters  39:03

But that I mean, issues like that gets to the youth and adult divide a little bit, too. And there's a whole spectrum of things, right, of course that there's the youthful or younger culture looking back at their predecessors and kind of either poking fun or saying what do you even why you and worrying about this, right. So there's little things style things right. The center part side part thing, right? We're I think center part is back in now. Inside part is out or skinny jeans are out now, right? Oh, dang, I know, right? It's tough for you, Gregg. But then there's also issues,

Caryn Rivadeneira  39:41

that's tough to give up going back to mom jeans. Alright, love jeans.

Kyle Groters  39:46

But then there's even within like our own domination nomination within our church, when we were going through the woman in church leadership, debate and discussion, something that was really not on the radar for our students and they didn't particularly about was that issue because for most of them, they were like, why wouldn't we? That wasn't the like every single person but most of our students, it wasn't something they were particularly concerned about. Because in their minds, why would we not have women doing this? So just showing a, there's a generational movement that's happened with there are some things that for our young people are still a very big deal. But then there are other things that for the older generations are really big deal and are important that they kind of we've moved on from that that isn't important to us. There are other things that are more important. Right. So there's an interesting divide there. Certainly.

Gregg DeMey  40:33

Yeah, for sure. And I mean, along the same lines in North American Christianity and 90s, this phrase of worship Wars was coined, and we're not totally past it in North America. I mean, even in our elders, discerning for Elmhurst CRC to come back together, there's still like vestiges of that smoldering in the background. But yeah, hopefully, hopefully, we're transcending that. These days, or at least those wars are not being fight fought with the same level of acrimony. In 2021, as they once were going to read a very humbling quote from a guy named Ron Sider, which is about how sociologists can distinguish North American Christians from North American unbelievers. So like along these lines, I think we've talked about music preferences, political preferences, stances on various social issues, like there is not uniformity within the church, like you can't point to a Christian person in North America and say, Oh, you're a Christian. So therefore, blah, blah, blah, even as much as what, as evangelical Christians are brought up in the news. So in Ron Sider's book, The Scandal of the Evangelical Conscience, he says this, increasingly, researchers have not been able to differentiate the behaviors and values of self identified Christians from non Christians, with one exception. Done. Here it is what they buy. As total sales of religious products reached more than $7 billion annually, it seems God's people are constructing and expressing their identity through the consumption of Christ branded products, rather than through the practice of Christ like love. It appears in 21st century America, the labels we display and buy have become our lords. And sadly, Our Lord is being reduced to a label.

Caryn Rivadeneira  42:41

I love Ron Sider. So his one of his great books is at Hunger in the Age of Rich Christians or Rich Christians in the Age of Hunger. So he speaks a lot of about that about our our love of money and things. And Jesus junk and puts in perspective are how wealthy we are. I love he's a good thinker.

Gregg DeMey  43:06

So I wish it was the case that Christians were 10 times more generous than the average North American, but that doesn't seem to be a trackable, it does seem that our product purchases is the best way to identify us. So Wow. That's I feel like that's kind of a prophetic word. So interestingly, that the gift of prophecy is mentioned when Judas and Silas are part of bearing this message. But the way their prophetic gift expresses itself, according to Luke, in Acts 15, is through the strengthening and encouragement of the church, that they think that's pretty awesome. It's not like they're out there just forecasting the future. But it's like they're calling forth, like what the church can be through their, their way of bearing this message and bearing the gospel. So maybe some of our folks listening our profits without knowing it. Like if you have the gift of calling forth people's potential or like giving strength or encouragement so folks can walk forward into an unknown future. Like that's all part and parcel of the prophetic gift. Yeah.

Kyle Groters  44:25

Just a good reminder, because when we think profit, we think, Old Testament. They think of why Java mountain, we think calling bears out of the woods. I think

Gregg DeMey  44:34

bears go on up old Baldy is one of my favorite quotes in the Old Testament. You should tell that story in youth group often because it's a bunch of it's like the youth group. It's the ancient Israeli youth group is like,

Kyle Groters  44:50

No, we actually talked about it. Just like a few weeks ago at one of our studies. It came up nobody believed me like that's not a story. It is a 100% True story.

Gregg DeMey  45:02

Interestingly, that story might appear in worship next summer at Elmhurst CRC, calling bears

Kyle Groters  45:09

out of their summaries very

Caryn Rivadeneira  45:10

you're gonna say like in a song and I was like, Oh, that's okay. Yeah,

Gregg DeMey  45:15

yeah, I wrote a new song. These are the days of Elisha.. Okay?

Kyle Groters  45:21

bears come crawling

Gregg DeMey  45:22

the wolves and the bears. Oh boy. Alright, let's bring Acts 15. Home to the end verses 36 through 41. So sometime later Paul said to Barnabas, let's go back and visit the believers in all the towns where we had preached the word of the Lord and see how they were doing.

Kyle Groters  45:44

Barnabas wanted to take john also called mark with them. But Paul did not think it was wise to take him because he had deserted them and Pamphili and had not continued with them in the work. They had

Caryn Rivadeneira  45:55

such a sharp disagreement that they parted company. Barnabas took mark and sailed for Cyprus. But Paul chose Silas and left commanded by the believers to the grace of the Lord. He went through Syria and to psyllium strengthening the churches. Felicia, I guess is where you want that Cecilia? Silicea. Phyllis. Yes.

Kyle Groters  46:15

As silly as a different affiliate.

Gregg DeMey  46:18

breaking my heart.

Kyle Groters  46:20

Sorry about that. Alright, and Cecilia? Yeah. See?

Caryn Rivadeneira  46:24

Maybe that's why that was your story.

Gregg DeMey  46:26

I was born in Sicily.

Caryn Rivadeneira  46:27

Yeah. There you go.

Gregg DeMey  46:29

I mean, so let's see is the province in Sumatra?

Caryn Rivadeneira  46:34

Silly, so silly. And so maybe that's why I said it. Maybe I was thinking about his Italian roots. Anyway, can't read.

Gregg DeMey  46:44

so fascinating that this is the conclusion of Acts 15. After all, this hard work of mending and bringing people together. There's an apostolic breakup story. So Paul and Barnabas, after being used by God, to bring Jews and Gentiles together, Paul, I think it probably has this Holy Spirit inspired idea like we should visit the churches again, who knows the number of months or years that have gone by at this point to check-in. I mean, they had pointed elders at all these congregations, but probably to do a follow-up and then like push the borders of where the message had gone, which seems like a beautiful idea. And then Barnabas proposes taking his cousin, John, who Luke kind of casually mentions had deserted them previously done. And Paul doesn't want to have anything to do with this. So part of me wants to ask like, while Paul the Apostle of grace, where does the grace man? Or is it common sense? Who knows what Paul knew about? JOHN Mark? Did he need more time? Are they like oil and water in terms of their approach?

Kyle Groters  48:01

Currently, I was actually talking about this last week, as we were in this passage, and whenever I've read this, my immediate reaction, my gut reaction, is that Paul is kind of being a jerk a little bit, right, not knowing any of the broader contexts. And that's weird to say, because it's the Apostle Paul, right. But it just it, it seems we don't have very much information just that. Paul wasn't convinced that it was a good choice. And therefore, like, all the work that we've done before, all this incredible stuff, we're done. It's like the band's breaking up over the smallest thing.

Caryn Rivadeneira  48:35

Right? Yeah, I had that sense, too. Because even when I read it that because he had deserted them I wasn't even taking that is Luke editorializing. I think that that's what Paul was probably saying, No, he can't come he deserted us, blah, blah, blah. And so I kind of see this as like, probably both felt like that was the right decision. And to me, that's what I mean, Paul was probably right, in his mind and whatever it was spirit lead per field decision to say, now this guy didn't stick with us for whatever reason, but Barnabas the good man, I don't think he's suddenly this is about him turning evil or whatever. It's probably just now I want them to come with Yeah. What are

Kyle Groters  49:15

Are they both right? If they weren't right

Gregg DeMey  49:17

or both? Yes. So to play the other, the other side here for a second. So God for sure can bring good and fruitful things that are bad situations right. So one of the things that happens here is that you have this dynamic team of two that suddenly multiplies into four. So you have Barnabas and john Mark together and you have Paul and Silas together. So just 100% multiplication of kind of like message bearing graceful out and we know from history like john Mark became like Peters kind of right-hand man and Rome eventually So, like, clearly he was not a lifelong desert or, or beyond, you know whether he was 100%, like, ready for the road ahead or the road Paul envisioned? Like, who knows. But Barnabas saw, I think the future potential and john mark, and that was enough for them to walk side by side from that point. At the same time, like Paul and Silas become this amazing team, used by God through the rest of, of Acts in the years to come. So I don't know if this is like an ecclesiastics to everything, there's a season moment. But it's so clearly there's a season to like, do everything you can to bring everybody back together and around the table. And maybe there's a season to, like divide and conquer.

Caryn Rivadeneira  50:51

Totally. And again, they're, they were out and about, and they were spreading the gospel. So it's not like it was one church. I mean, there can even be good things to church splits or whatever. But I see this is probably God using different personalities, different skills, spreading people in different directions to reach different people. So yeah, I mean, it's unfortunate if it ended ugly. I mean, such a sharp disagreement doesn't sound like things are handled probably in the best way. But I don't know. two dudes who spend a lot of time together get sick of each other. Right? I mean, that's, that's all Yes. I

Gregg DeMey  51:26

don't think that's what the Bible is saying, though, I think by sharp disagreement, it's not just like speaking to them, I don't know, the anger or the yelling Enos of it. It's like it's focused. Like in that sense, it's like they agree about everything. But on this particular thing, like, is this person our partner or not? They're like, totally in disagreement.

Kyle Groters  51:47

Sometimes that's enough. Sometimes it should be.

Gregg DeMey  51:50

Yeah. You're wrong, Kyle. There it

Kyle Groters  51:54

is, hey, our denomination has resulted in division. So Oh, completely, like six of them. But

Gregg DeMey  52:03

so this is a good thing to reflect on. Because here we are in a Reformed Church or you know, 500 years past the Reformation. And I think for those of us who are, you know, Protestants in general, we grow up thinking as this could only have been a needful, good, righteous, Holy Spirit, God-ordained thing for there to be a totally new huge branch splitting off the tree of Christianity.

Kyle Groters  52:33

Yeah, just history. History tells us that pretty much everybody involved in the early days, that was not what they were thinking, even necessarily in our, our primary reformers or magisterial reformers that we look to, across the board, really wanted to actually try to stay more together than they ended up falling. And it wasn't their first choice to smell. They didn't want to, they got to stay together. And they made efforts really far into the reformation, like serious efforts to try to re-join communion with Rome. Yeah, they weren't sure they were effort they care they wanted to. But it is interesting because that's not the history that we often come away with.

Gregg DeMey  53:16

Yes, so I do believe in retrospect, that church in by the 15th century, in the 16th century, when the official reformation occurred, like was in dire need of repentance, and reform and change and cleansing. On the other hand, I would say now, all these years later, one of the bad fruits of the reformation, is that, like, not only was that initial split in the early 1500s, did that happen? But there have been the unintended consequence of the spirit of the Reformation is like, hey, if I don't agree with you like we need to do what Paul and Barnabas did split start company, and I'll start my own church. So the proliferation of churches denominations, like since the reformation, has been unprecedented has never happened in the history of Christianity before that, and has not happened in the other main branches of Christianity. It's unique to Protestantism.

Caryn Rivadeneira  54:19

Yeah, not to say there's always disagreement or other little factions. But yeah, I mean, it's fascinating. And I know Kyle, you love church history. I enjoy reading about it. I always find it super depressing. Because it's brutal. I mean, I just, it's like, you know, we think of like, oh, we're just unified, whatever. It just means since these days, it's been rough. I mean, by rough, including, you know, the torturing and killing of one another if we don't agree. So it's like, so there are church splits, but I mean, it's, yeah, it's, it's part of who we are. And it's sometimes it's for good, obviously. You know, it's there are very important distinctions between denominations and there's, there are reasons to You know, sometimes split in a healthy way. But yet it is interesting that it's and I mean, to be fair to, I love the Bible and love the word of God, it's confusing at times, there's a lot to fight about within the Bible and to wrestle with. And that's mostly, I think what these battles are about,

Gregg DeMey  55:20

it would be lovely. In the arc of history, if we Christians were discerning enough to divide over things that were essential or really mattered or that were more. I don't know, like Paul and Barnabas, like relational in character and had the potential to like, actually multiply the gospel rather than just being like, you're wrong, probably going to Hades and doing my own thing,

Kyle Groters  55:48

lighting the fire and burning it, and then the Reformation or we're going to fight, you know, 60 years of war and Ravage the fullness of the countryside and other people. That's a great,

Gregg DeMey  55:57

yeah. So if you're listening to this, you probably have a little history with a reformed Christian Reformed Church, and just one minute or less of like, why is there a Reformed Church of America and a Christian Reformed Church in North America. And the Reformed Church is actually the oldest chartered organization in the United States going back to I think, like 1632, in New Amsterdam, that Dutch immigrants started sort of like the national version of the church on the other side of the Atlantic, the Christian Reformed Church, started in the 1850s. So more than 200 years later, a much later wave of Dutch immigrants came to the United States, knowing the Reformed Church of America was here, and was kind of ethnically still way majority Dutch and thought like we're going to get to the United States, we're going to find these brothers and sisters on the other side of the Atlantic will join with them. And this wave of immigrants in the 1800s soon realized, like, wow, these Dutch Americans, they're like Americans. They don't want to speak Dutch or have worship services in Dutch and like, we disagree about these handfuls of things. So like, we better start our own church. And for cultural reasons, that is probably not an invalid thing. Right? Because I mean, as a whole group of people, like becomes Americans and like changes their culture and identity, like, that's a big thing. On the other hand, once like a couple of generations went by, then all the Christian Reformed people were Americans, and all those cultural differences by  and enlarge, you know, didn't did exist with the same kind of sharpness or focus. But are these organizations' denominations still, you know, exist on parallel tracks today? Now that they are one of the same now, there's not a few differing values, but by and large, like 97%, similar,

Caryn Rivadeneira  57:53

and splits could be on the horizon as well, I mean, that it's time to reform news later this year. Exactly. So these tiny little denominations keep getting and again, it's I mean, you know, whether these things, they're not necessarily essential to salvation, but you know, some of these issues are very essential to who is being reached, who is being who's called to preach or to be elders, whatever, are honored. I mean, so there are some, you know, issues that are essential to certain people, significant issues, they're hugely significant issues.

Gregg DeMey  58:30

Where we get in trouble those sometimes we are not able just to keep it to those issues, and we extend it to like because we disagree on this. You're, you're Yeah, you're out. Well, in the spirit of unity. I know you can't see us, folks. But we're sitting around an old table that our friend Kyle Olson has prepared in a new way with boom microphones. So super thanks to Kyle for facilitating a little nicer environment for us to have this conversation. Be one actual table around the same big table together. So thanks, Kyle. Thanks to Billy, Billy Heschel for being our sound engineer and making this happen. We do want to continue to do all in our power to gather around God's word so and so far as you have the influence of staying at the table or bringing others to your table, are looking at our congregation as one of Jesus local table. Like we want to be in this all together. So that's why we're recording these every week. So look forward to seeing many of you in worship on Sunday. Thank you, Caryn. Thank you, Kyle. Thank you. Peace, everybody