Acts 17 - In

Summary:
In this week's podcast, Paul escapes the clutches of yet another angry mob and outwits -- and converts -- some of Athens's finest minds. Is this what following Jesus and sharing the gospel is supposed to look like? Gregg DeMey (Lead Pastor), Jeff Klein (Pastor of Outreach), and Caryn Rivadeneira (Director of Care and Worship Planning) discuss! Listen in.

Today's Hosts
Gregg DeMey, Lead Pastor
Jeff Klein, Outreach Pastor
Caryn Rivadeneira, Director of Care

Questions/Comments:  We'd love to hear from you! Email ASK.

Note: Wade in the Word is a weekly podcast designed to take a deep dive into scripture for the weekend message. Join our pastors, staff, and occasional special guests as we reflect together.

Wade in the Word podcast is a production of Elmhurst Christian Reformed Church, located in Elmhurst, IL. Wade in the Word is produced and audio-engineered by Kyle Olson, Technical Director. For more information about Elmhurst CRC or to find out about other tools and resources to grow you and your family in faith, visit elmhurstcrc.org.

Transcript

SPEAKERS

Caryn Rivadeneira, Gregg DeMey, Jeffrey Klein

Gregg DeMey  00:09

Hey friends, welcome to the Elmhurst CRC Wade in the Word podcast we are going to be diving into Acts chapter 17. This Week in preparation for a worship service on October the 10th. Really appreciate you hanging out with us. I'm here with Caryn Rivadeneira, our Director of Care. Hey, it's

Caryn Rivadeneira  00:27

good to be back.

Gregg DeMey  00:28

And the right reverend, Jeffrey Klein.

Jeffrey Klein  00:31

Good morning. Good morning. Good morning.

Gregg DeMey  00:34

Good morning. Are you full of decaf? Already? Mines full.

Jeffrey Klein  00:37

of decaf. I'm pumped up and ready to go.

Gregg DeMey  00:39

All right. All right. We've been hanging out in the book of Acts for quite a while this journey is going to take us through Acts chapter 20, and the end of this month, and then we'll kind of switch gears after that. But Acts chapter 20 really takes us to kind of a kind of a major Crossroads Acts 21 and following are really the the end of the Apostle Paul's journey. But in Acts chapter 17, we get to step off in three different cities in the Roman Empire. That's Thessalonica, Berea and the great city of Athens. So ready to get ready to travel. I am alright, we're going to pick it up. Acts 17 verses one through nine. I'll get us rolling today. So when Paul and his companions had passed through the cities of Amphipolis, and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where there was a Jewish synagogue. Now, as was his custom, Paul went into the synagogue and on three Sabbath days, he reasoned with them from the scriptures, explaining and proving that the Messiah had to suffer and rise from the dead. This Jesus I am proclaiming to you is the Messiah. He said,

Caryn Rivadeneira  01:49

some of the Jews were persuaded and joined Paul and Silas acid, a large number of God fearing Greeks, and quite a few prominent women,

Jeffrey Klein  01:57

but other Jews were jealous. So they rounded up some bad characters from the marketplace, formed a mob and started a riot in the city. They rushed to Jason's house in search of Paul and Silas in order to bring them out to the crowd. When they did not find them. They dragged Jason and some other believers before the city official shouting, these men who have caused trouble all over the world. And now come here, and Jason has welcomed them into his house there. They're all defying Caesars decrees, saying there is another king, one called Jesus.

Gregg DeMey  02:31

When they had heard this, the crowd in the city officials were thrown into turmoil, and then they made Jason and the others postponed, and then let them go. It's never adult day in the life of the Apostle Paul and his travels. So they are working down one of the famous Roman roads in the Roman Empire, something called the Egnation way, not to be confused with St. Ignatius, and the spiritual pathway, sometimes called the Egnation way, this is a road called the with an Egnation way, that stretch for hundreds and hundreds of miles across what would be kind of the northern border of modern Greece, into Turkey, and all these roads are, you know, probably every 30 miles or so like the significant city or weigh stations.

Jeffrey Klein  03:19

And they were meant to carry the Roman military, but now they're carrying the gospel, which is kind of cool.

Gregg DeMey  03:26

God has a plan for these things. Yeah, right. And Luke, who is a traveling companion of Paul, this point, I think, points out like that we're now in the land where there's probably not a Jewish synagogue in every city. But in Thessalonica, there happens to be one. So Paul, and his companions go back to kind of the classic strategy of going into the synagogue first and kind of leveraging the Old Testament Scriptures, curious that Luke says reasoning and proving that's a strong way of putting it that you could prove Jesus was some side but for folks who have the conviction that the Hebrew Scriptures are really God's word, that prophecy is a thing that a Messiah is coming. So I would not suggest necessarily trying to prove to your modern sort of secular American that you can prove to that person that Jesus is the Messiah, however, there's

Jeffrey Klein  04:24

Yeah, I mean, this is awesome how there's different mission strategies here right? So Paul always starts with the people that have already read the Hebrew Scriptures and these Jews who understood this one God, and all these prophecies that they maybe you understand what they pointed to yet, but they understood, you know, while the scriptures are something that means that we value them so we're willing to dig into them with you and really discuss this and go through it. Whereas he goes a little later to a Greek town where there's no sense of that and he goes a whole different direction.

Caryn Rivadeneira  04:51

Yeah, and I as I was read this, just now listening, you know, the idea of I focused in on that he was proving that the Messiah had to suffer. I mean, obviously, the rising The data is a whole other thing. But that connection between, you know, the suffering servant and how meaningful that tradition has been like you're saying to different groups. To me, that's been a hugely powerful, it's harder, maybe for privileged sort of suburbanites to tap into that. But for many people through history and across the globe, the idea of, you know, connecting that to the suffering servant prophecies,

Jeffrey Klein  05:23

when you read Isaiah 53, as a Christian, you think, how could they have missed this, right? Like, it's so obvious, but then you know, that's just us coming from the other side, reading back into it, it's pretty easy, right? But if you're reading it, and you're seeing this man walking around, or hearing about this, Jesus, and now you're trying to connect this to this, especially when you had all these ideas in your head about where he is supposed to come from, and what he's supposed to be like, and in

Gregg DeMey  05:47

great contrast to a Roman Caesar, who is right, literally, born with a silver spoon in their mouth and totally royal that you're proving that the Messiah, the real Lord is actually had to suffer.

Jeffrey Klein  05:58

Yeah, yeah.

Gregg DeMey  06:01

It's interesting, Luke starts pointing out the kind of people who are either the people of peace or the early adopters of the gospel. So in Thessalonica, there's some Jews who believe as a result of Paul's going into the synagogue, but also names a number of God fearing Greeks, and quite a few prominent women.

Caryn Rivadeneira  06:20

I know of course, I'd love that right. Good job, ladies. I know, isn't that great? And I love that they were prominent as well, you know, I mean, because in the I feel like when Jesus was walking around, you know, it was well, he had prominent women with him as well. But you know, it was the the women in trouble the desperate women who were so drawn to him, so it's sort of lovely, just how I'm going to say attractive the gospel was and I mean that in the spiritual sense.

Jeffrey Klein  06:44

Yeah. But it's also a great strategy. If you have, you know, again, prominent people come to know Jesus. They're leaders, they're people that people listen to or look to. And so it provides a early group of people that are like, well, if that person believes in this maybe I should consider this right so the

Caryn Rivadeneira  07:02

early influencers I just said something I mean, right now, you know, social media is taking another beating with the, with the whistleblower rightly coming forward. But I had just seen this past weekend that was a pastor who said he met a woman who, who discovered Jesus through tik tok, you know, because there's these people putting out these great things and you think like, okay, we can make fun of these influencers. All we want,

Gregg DeMey  07:21

but was it through a Christian? Sea shanty? I don't know what it was through.

Caryn Rivadeneira  07:26

Yeah, I just think it's funny.

Jeffrey Klein  07:28

Now, there's a lot of jealousy here, though.

Gregg DeMey  07:30

The theme of jealousy rises. It's ugly. greenhead once again,

Jeffrey Klein  07:34

yeah, I mean, here are these Jews. I mean, you kind of what are they jealous of? I think, yeah, like, they're certainly jealous that these guys are getting a hearing that they don't get. Which is not uncommon in the church of America. Like, we're jealous of the church down the road that has more traction than we do or I was really Mike Berean. The other day he was is a discipleship guru worked in England, mostly, but he talked about going to his Bishop and asking to be given some buildings that are basically were church buildings in a kind of ceased to exist in England. And the bishop saying, absolutely not your you need to stop growing, and stop being so whatever, because you're making other pastors feel badly. That was the bishops answer. And I'm like, Yeah, there you go. Jealousy, like, so so not gonna advance the gospel because someone might down the road might be offended by the fact that we're growing and they're not right.

Gregg DeMey  08:26

Let's bring it all to the lowest common denominator. And it's a great strategy. Yeah, I think there's probably also some jealousy, just, I mean, Judaism at this point is more than 1000 years old. And there's, it's kind of set in its way. Right. And for sure, growth is one angle on the gospel, but there's also like, the newness, the novelty of it. And I would have to thank like, just the passion and enthusiasm and energy that motivated Paul and his companions to travel around the world and surely must have like leaked through their words and tone and body language. And like in such a compelling way that like all these converts, I mean, there's probably more converts to this Christian message than the Jewish synagogue has seen in, you know, a century. Yeah.

Jeffrey Klein  09:14

So what is interesting to Judaism clearly was very attractive. And every one of these chapters we run into these God-fearing Greeks, who were drawn to the Jewish way of life by watching these people live and hearing their teachings and it was like, wow, I want to be a part of this. But then it's also cool how God was laying the groundwork for this next wave of missionaries bringing Jesus to the same people and them being ready to hear this message because they were attracted to this Jewish way of life. Right?

Caryn Rivadeneira  09:39

I mean, that was the plan I mean, God intended it to be that way right? These people to be set apart and different to be attractive and appealing. What I like though is like I was it's tempting, I think that to read initially that they were jealous, like for God, you know, in that way, like, Oh, no, these people are like, they're heretics, whatever, but just that in the next, that they rounded up some bad characters, sort of you Now shows their their motivations were not holy jealousy

Gregg DeMey  10:02

is getting more strategic here. Yes, so they round up some bad characters folks of ill repute. And then this energy gets translated into like a full out whole mob mentality. So you need to remember like, Philip II is just a couple cities down the road, right so Paul and Silas are not like, you know, fresh faced and just had a great night's sleep. It's like they've just been beaten. And, you know, We're up all night like, baptizing and having communion just probably a few days before. So like they're coming into this, like, battered and bruised and literally scarred. So just the amount of trouble on every level that they're encountering at this point, it's just really hard to comprehend. One totally. A little nerdy aside here, the the Greek word for the civil magistrates, the city officials, is a rare word polity mark in in Greek. And one of the criticisms through the years of Luke was like, hey, this was not even a word, like no one, use this as city officials. And then, lo and behold, in the last 100 years, archaeological discoveries in this very part of the world, have made clear that that word was used for civic leaders, like there's a big column near here where that word and the name of a particular politics work has been found. So just kind of cool that like Luke, who professes to be super into the details, has been validated in a number of ways by archaeology where he had previously been criticized for making stuff up.

Jeffrey Klein  11:46

Yeah, he's been exonerated over and over again, especially in the last 25 years. They found a lot of archaeological things like the name gal. Galileo is another name uses and everyone's like Galileo, there's Galileo and the records. And now recently, they found in reference to this guy outside of the Bible, so it's kind of cool that Luke has been exonerated as a historian as a writer. And it makes the Bible more you know, robustly like oh, this is history. This isn't just made up nonsense.

Gregg DeMey  12:10

Yeah. So speaking of guys names, we have this poor man Jason here. Yeah. who becomes the I don't know that the target of the the mob?

Jeffrey Klein  12:22

I think I feel like Isn't he the synagogue ruler? I think he is right. I'm not sure I couldn't find where it said that. But I think it's somewhere we get the word that he's the synagogue ruler, maybe it's in the next section. But

Caryn Rivadeneira  12:33

yeah, I mean, the poor guy. And then I'm wondering how many Jason's became Jason especially in our generation. Now there were a lot of that misses an interesting person named your child after I know it's a sad story. And I think it just reminds me to you know, the Old Testament stories till you get that angry mob showing up at your house. I mean, to this day, that would be a terrifying thing. But yeah, yeah.

Gregg DeMey  12:56

So just, I want to touch on the two things that the mob is protesting and what comes out of their mouth. So number one, they say these men who have caused trouble all over the world have now come here as remarkably honest and truthful.

Jeffrey Klein  13:14

cause trouble or have they cause trouble or have the people that have responded to them? cause trouble

Caryn Rivadeneira  13:20

stirring trouble?

Gregg DeMey  13:22

There's trouble around them, right? a cloud of trouble.

Jeffrey Klein  13:26

Yeah, it seems like wherever they go, they have a little trouble. Yeah, for sure are a lot of

Gregg DeMey  13:30

hand I mean, I think this is a great part of following Jesus who himself was always surrounded by a cloud of trouble. So I've been more concerned at some times in the life of the church if just like everything seems like placid and agreeable, like it's the false prophets who have peace and smooth sailing so it's I think whenever the Holy Spirit is actually pushing forward or inevitably moving in the boundaries like there's always going to be trouble actually, I think Season One of The Chosen the show that I mentioned every once in a while, I think the the last episode of season one ends with them crossing into the border of sumeria and there's a soundtrack is actually a song called trouble Yep. Which is making clear like wow, Jesus venturing off or crossing this boundary is going to create a whole whirlwind of stuff

Caryn Rivadeneira  14:32

Yeah, well when you said that about the cloud of trouble I picture of your like pig pen and I think even in that scene, there's like dust kicking up but that's it. I think that's kind of a nice image that when you're on the move when you're doing stuff for Jesus in the kingdom of God, there is Yeah, you kick up some dust along the way. And not everybody knows

Jeffrey Klein  14:47

that there's another kingdom that is trying to continue its rule on planet Earth. Right? So the second thing that they say is also true. Right there they are. Totally How about another king, I think Caesar was called The Son of God indeed. And he was considered to be like this son of a god right or Son of God. So, for someone to say Jesus is the Son of God is definitely a slap in Caesar's face in a way, indirectly. They're not really saying that Jesus is usurping Caesar. But certainly that accusation could stay. No, I think they are saying that they probably are saying that

Gregg DeMey  15:20

this was on like Roman coinage at the time, one of the ways of just Caesar's Lord. Yeah, was just one of the very simple acts of allegiance and identification as a Roman or with the Roman Empire for so for Christians to say Jesus is Lord is not saying death to Caesar. But it's just saying like, there's no greater Lord, you only have to look up a little bit to see like Caesar as the Emperor, you need to look up really high to see that Jesus is Lord, like infinitely higher than the Lordship of Caesar. Yeah,

Caryn Rivadeneira  15:54

I did feel happy though, at the end of this passage that they were able to post bond that felt so modern, I feel like you don't read that much in the Bible. Like Alison, it sort of was like, Oh, look at that. There was some

Gregg DeMey  16:04

so we do owe an enormous debt of gratitude in the Western world to the Roman legal code. And there's a few times we hear little echoes of it in the book of Acts like people posting bond appealing to a higher court,

Jeffrey Klein  16:16

right to citizenship say I'm a citizen, you can't beat me like this. I'm at a trial right

Caryn Rivadeneira  16:21

is brutalist is called it right, these little moments of civility or humanity. I guess it's just sort of nice to see for Jason.

Jeffrey Klein  16:30

Yeah. And Paul and Silas are not found in this. They can't find them. They're looking for him. They got Jason and his counterparts. But Paul and Silas are not actually found. So there's somewhere hiding or Yes,

Gregg DeMey  16:41

I'm a little curious again, like they've just been beaten. So right, kind of like, I wonder if they're like, we can't do this again.

Jeffrey Klein  16:49

They may be. It is interesting that they're not there. And we find out what where they are. I mean a little bit about where they are in the next section. But they're not. They're not mentioned here, right? They only find Jason and his counterparts, whoever these people are, they talk about Jason the others. We don't know who the others are, but we assume they're connected somehow to the synagogue. And if welcome Paul and Silas in to do this teaching. And so they're the target, they become the target of the mobs ire locking them up. And there's no beatings mentioned in this one, but they probably weren't treated like super kindly.

Caryn Rivadeneira  17:24

Probably not locked up. Yeah, it would be nice to have the detail of where they were hiding though. Or where they went. Yeah, were

Jeffrey Klein  17:30

they there somewhere?

Caryn Rivadeneira  17:31

Or maybe it was just coincidence, and they

Gregg DeMey  17:33

had an awesome attic or basement. Right?

Jeffrey Klein  17:38

So yeah,

Gregg DeMey  17:39

what do you call the rooms where you need like a password to get in a safe room? No. The like the speakeasy thing or

Jeffrey Klein  17:46

Oh, yeah,

Caryn Rivadeneira  17:48

I don't know. Why don't we

Gregg DeMey  17:49

have these in Chicago? Like someplace where you can like show up to have dinner or something?

Caryn Rivadeneira  17:53

Oh, no, they still do. So this

Gregg DeMey  17:57

is the first Christian mob.

Caryn Rivadeneira  17:59

Literally right?

Jeffrey Klein  18:01

room. Yeah, without a coat without a coat.

Caryn Rivadeneira  18:06

Yeah. could have had some secret spots or

Gregg DeMey  18:10

Alright, dear listeners, please disregard that last connection. Yeah. All right. So wherever they are, they're not out in public. But then starting at verse 10, we find out what happens next and make another stop on the Egnation way.

Caryn Rivadeneira  18:26

As soon as it was night, the believer sent Paul and Silas away to Berea. On arriving there they went to the Jewish synagogue. Now the brain Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica. For they received the message with great eagerness and examined the scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true. As a result, many of them believed, as did also a number of prominent Greek women and many Greek men.

Jeffrey Klein  18:52

When the Jews in Thessalonica heard that Paul was preaching the Word of God at Berea. Some of them went there to agitating the crowds and stirring them up. The believers immediately sent Paul to the coast, but Silas and Timothy stayed at Berea. Those who scored Paul brought him to Athens and then left with instructions for Silas and Timothy to join him as soon as possible.

Gregg DeMey  19:15

Alright, so seemed like a good idea to go to Berea. The same pattern totally follows here. So yeah, Paul teaches in the synagogue, there's some Jewish converts a number of prominent Greek women, and many Greek men also believe in this place.

Jeffrey Klein  19:37

You know, when I left Wheaton College, my final Bible essay for my Bible major, was based on Galatians four, which is, you know, in the fullness of time God sent His Son. And the question was, what were the, I think, seven or eight things that made it the fullness of time, and two of those are in this passage, the Roman roads, which were meant to carry the troops, but now made it easy To travel from town to town for the early missionaries, and then secondly, the dispersion of the Jews all over the ancient world, making this fertile soil ready for the gospel to show up in various places. So those are two of them. I don't remember all the other ones, but I probably could come up with them. But they're probably you could maybe the internet knows,

Gregg DeMey  20:19

oh, there was no internet.

Caryn Rivadeneira  20:21

There was no internet. Do you remember your last essay that you wrote? I don't know. I remember

Jeffrey Klein  20:25

we had to write that I remember being really cool. Thought that God had prepared the way for the gospel long before it ever God care that he was already at work. And I think that's and it's cool. To me, it's interesting to keep in mind, because sometimes when we think about doing alpha or doing these kind of mission things, we think we have to have all the genius and we have to have all the answers we have to but you know, we forget that God is actually at work before us. So we can just find where he's at work and follow his lead and ask the spirit was already at work, cool. things begin to happen. So yeah,

Gregg DeMey  20:58

yeah, so one of the I think questions and the musical jesus christ superstar is kind of like, like, whatever kind of portraying Jesus as this, you know, super public super popular figure. And there's a little bit of wondering, and one of the songs about like, you know why 2000 years ago, instead of like, you could have made records or put out tapes and got the message out so quickly. So I think part of God's wisdom in retrospect is actually that the gospel got to spread in a pre-net technological ways so that it could actually take deep root and form through households and relationships and our modern mindset is like no if something's awesome, you just like mass market it and get it to every corner of the world in a month or less.

Jeffrey Klein  21:43

So even methodology wise, you know, Jesus, in the early earliest disciples, they reject the whole crowd thing. So we love crowds, if you know if I get to speak to a big crowd, I feel way more important if I'm speaking to like, 10 people, right? But the the gospel really spreads more deeply and fully when we're actually around. You know, a smaller group of people looking face to face each other and figure out how to follow Jesus together and kind of wrestling with that. So

Gregg DeMey  22:09

Why would you say that the crowd seems to be going so well.

Jeffrey Klein  22:13

So the crowds You know, I think Jesus says in john somewhere that he didn't trust the crowds because he knew what was in their hearts. And I think that's something that we you know, should keep in mind sometimes. Again, I think the Christian faith spreads more deeply when it's like me looking you in the eye across the table and say, Okay, let's wrestle with this. What does it mean to follow Jesus thing?

Caryn Rivadeneira  22:31

Yeah, I mean, but this is true for any messaging. I mean, there's I think any marketer would say this that's sort of the grassroots me telling a friend to buy something is the most effective in a way to advertise a product if I want somebody to read something, and I tell them I mean, that's gonna be better than any commercial. Yeah, so this has always been true. I'm grateful for modern technology to get those messages out in different ways but

Jeffrey Klein  22:54

so you gotta love these brands. Yes, they

Gregg DeMey  22:57

have sort of a distinctive response. What do we what's compelling about them?

Jeffrey Klein  23:02

Well, it says more noble character, but another version says much more open minded. So it depends which version you read the Greek word I don't know I didn't really look it up

Caryn Rivadeneira  23:09

but open minded seems to make more sense since what makes them noble seems to be that they received the message eagerly but then they also examine that they were both receptive but curious, which I think is a great combination. So

Jeffrey Klein  23:22

again, they get together with the Bible or their scriptures, whatever kind of scriptures they had and they start wrestling with this together and they Okay, we should look at this, this new teaching and see if that is true or not, or you know, they're really digging in together. Instead of having this emotional, passionate, negative reaction.

Gregg DeMey  23:38

You're changing things.

Jeffrey Klein  23:39

Yeah, what are you doing? You're changing stuff. They actually said let's look into this. Let's see if there's anything to this let's let's dig in with our brains. And let's make a decision. That's that's pretty sweet. So you get like these brands, this be a good church to go to as a senior pastor.

Gregg DeMey  23:54

It sounds like Paul lasted for like two days. They sent him they sent him on the way. But then he got a trip to the coast, which sounds amazing.

Jeffrey Klein  24:03

Well the Thessalonicans of course are right down the road, so they run over to cause trouble.

Gregg DeMey  24:09

The jealousy spread is spreading like wildfire. Yeah,

Jeffrey Klein  24:11

it's unbelievable how they're gonna just go after these guys, no matter what they realize, oh, they're not any longer in Thessalonica. Oh, we hear they're down in Berea. Let's get down there. And how do they hear like is this again, there's no internet, there's no that they sent a carrier pigeon over with, hey, they're down here causing trouble. Yeah, this is funny. And then the berean number is not nearly as prominent as city as like Philippines or Thessalonica. This is more of an off the beaten path, which is interesting. Because you wonder if that had some impact on how they received this or how they just function in general. They weren't as you know, like even Israel today you go to Jerusalem on the Sabbath, it's shut down, go to Galilee in the Sabbath. It's not quite as shut down a little bit, a little more like chill. So it's interesting how you get away from the center, maybe of things You get a little more chill, you can a little more thinking a little more thoughtful. You're not quite as worked up? I don't know. Yeah.

Gregg DeMey  25:05

Yeah. So it strikes me that the brains are almost a little bit scientific in their spiritual approach. So part of part of the scientific method is having open mindedness and wondering, so you have a hypothesis, but you're not emotionally attached to it. Like you're not gonna fight somebody over your hypothesis, you're looking for evidence. And quite frankly, the scientific method is looking for evidence that disproves your hypothesis, not that supports it and proves that right? Right, you're looking you're trying to look at it from 12 different angles and come up with a reason why your hypothesis might be false. And if you can't find anything to falsify it, then you start wondering, oh, this might actually be be true. I think sometimes that gets flipped exactly backwards. I'm not sure how this has happened through modernity. But I've gotten the feeling from more folks these days that the scientific method is more like, Oh, you have a hypothesis, and then you just Marshal as many support structures around it as possible. And that makes it seem true, like no, that's exactly backwards of how it should work, we should be like suspicious of our hypotheses. Because maybe there's some ulterior motive that we're not even aware of that's like generating our hypothesis, like we want this to be true. So the real way forward, is trying to defeat your own hypothesis. And if you can't defeat it, then you maybe are on solid enough ground.

Caryn Rivadeneira  26:30

And totally that's always my advice to writers too. And you're writing like an op ed piece, and you're throwing some out, you have to be your own devil's advocate, know all the arguments in your head, not me, you could not that you have to write them all into the piece, but just to be prepared. So writing a science is what I'm trying to say, yeah.

Gregg DeMey  26:47

I feel like a negative Nelly saying that, or like the scientific method is, but to me, that provides like a certain amount of, like lightness, because, like, rarely does like the truth or the idea just like rain down from heaven. Right? And it's kind of delightful to pursue it.

Jeffrey Klein  27:08

Well, it's a reasonable approach versus a emotional passionate overreaction of the vessel. And icones, which is we say is, you know, Luke writes is out of jealousy, how Luke knows that, I don't know. But he clearly is able to read the tea leaves that this is a jealous reaction to this gospel, not a reasonable one. So now we have a reasonable reaction. We're going to look into this and see if our ideas may be wrong. And maybe we need to re think our ideas and let's let's study the Scripture. So they're looking to authority there, they're going to where they believe authority is in this Hebrew Scriptures, but they're willing to then explore them from a different angle. Yeah, I mean, for different angles. I feel like

Caryn Rivadeneira  27:46

this passage should be very exciting to the skeptics and doubters in the you know, in the scientifically minded out there, because I think this is a great example that it doesn't need to be. It's not like you need to read the Bible and just never question anything, or just take her whenever I hear any sermon or whatever. I mean, it's really, really good to be engaged and to receive it to be open. But it sounds so modern vaccinium going to do my own research, it's not necessarily doing your own research, but exploring it, testing it. I mean, that's a that's a good thing to do.

Gregg DeMey  28:16

So as the gospel goes, for this part of the world, I often find myself thinking about my sister who lives in Turkey, just like near this border. Sure. And being a North American, like having experienced a number of countries around the world, she and my brother in law refer to kind of like warm and cool cultures in terms of like emotion. And Americans would be slightly on the cooler side, like we're a little more like lead with reason and thinking things through. And my sister would say, like, Turkey is like, the warmest hottest, like, even compared to like what Italians like in European like we think of whatever, but warm Mediterranean blood and leading with right, strong emotional reactions to everything. So it's a little, my guess is there's probably some cultural continuity in this part of the world. And yet Paul is journeying down toward Athens, which in the Greek world is probably the coolest part of the culture and has this long history more than 500 years at this point of being a plate a city of ideas of philosophy of intellectual debate, so it's probably no accident that as they journey closer to Athens that wow, the brands are more open minded than the Tesla Nikon's just on the road of culture.

Jeffrey Klein  29:41

Yeah. Good. So how do we do all this? alpha in all honesty, all you know, there's several alpha groups going now and what's awesome as you you're in the room with people that have chosen to come and be open minded to the gospel, so they're not nestled nearly ready to receive anything but they're at least willing to come explore with you. You know, okay, you know, yeah, I mean like this one guy is coming on Sunday night. He's awesome. He just says, Yeah, Jesus, he was a nice guy walked around you got crucified I think he was I think he definitely existed but that's all. But I'm here I'm here to explore because I, I know you guys seem to have something that I don't have and I want to I want to see if I can, like learn about this, how do I get this? And that's pretty cool. So I, I love to tell him, Hey, I love your why you're here because I love that you're open minded and willing to explore this, and I just draw conclusions and walk away. But you're willing to come and explore, you know, really what the truth is. That's awesome.

Caryn Rivadeneira  30:36

That is, I mean, I wish people who grew up in church their whole life, I wish everybody kind of had that approach to because it's I think there's so many of us who we just, I believe, that's what I was taught and I believe in but if you haven't really experiment saying you should reject it, but if you haven't sort of gone deep into it and kind of smelled around and questioned and in wondered some of these things, I think your faith can tend to be a little bit shallow. So I always get very excited when people are in that place of just yet. What is this? Even if, in the meantime, even if it's not they're not entirely receptive. But

Jeffrey Klein  31:08

how much do you think fear plays into people's willingness to be open minded? I think there's a lot of fear that if we really explore this and dig into this, and what if there's, what if I was wrong? What if I didn't have the right understanding? What if I have to admit that I was wrong, that I, you know, that I might have understood things in one way? Now I understand that whole new way? You know, I think I've said this, I know, journeyman. I've said this, you know, I've had to say yes to Jesus multiple times, because every time you teach me something new, I have to say, okay, I've to decide, am I going to go down this road? Am I going to just ignore this and say that this is a bunch of malarkey. And, you know, again, I think my camp travels have forced me into settings where I've had to keep saying yes to Jesus, and new things that I've learned about him from people that maybe understood more than I understood, even though I thought I really understood a lot, ran into people on the way that was like, well, these guys seem to be moving away, I'm not moving. And then I searched my Bible and go, Hmm, this seems to be in there. How did I miss this? Like, what's happening here? So so it's not just open mindedness of like, Hey, I'll just accept the idea. It's this, like, I'm going to study the Scriptures. I'm gonna dig in and see what is his God have more for me here than I thought he had? Am I or am I just locked in my, you know,

Gregg DeMey  32:24

on a whole other level? How shall I put this? So in the background, when Paul visits the synagogues, right, there's like, I think some assumptions that contribute to the open mindedness. So every Jewish person who grows up with being formed by the old test, narrative knows, like, we were all made in the image of God, God chose us as His people, we were slaves for 400 years, God set us free, we kept rejecting God, we keep rejecting God. And the solution of this is to be the Lord sending us his Messiah. developmentally, even in modern times, I would love it if we did better at shaping our kids to have all of those assumptions. Like I kind of have all those assumptions in many of them are at odds with our modern world. And if you grew up even in a Christian household, then your basic assumptions are live like I am, I'm a pretty good person, and like Jesus is the frosting on top of the cake. Like that's, that's not compatible with the open minded composter that the bereans are in. Right, because all of that biblical background is what keeps us like, open to the work of God. Yeah.

Caryn Rivadeneira  33:39

Yeah, that's a great point.

Gregg DeMey  33:41

So I mean, one of the wonderful things about Alpha is that it kind of pushes you into all of those biblical roots and background through the course of the experience.

Caryn Rivadeneira  33:52

Yeah, well And to your point about the fear I mean to the Jewish people who this was their complete perspective complete understanding and rightfully so is faithful people you know, trying to be true. Yeah, this idea of the Messiah who had suffered had diamond all of that would have been like this cannot possibly be it and I think exactly to your point now there's a lot of modern day Christians who are so afraid to think differently than maybe exactly they were taught or, oh no, what if the creation story is more poetry than science? You know, is that going to shake the whole Bible for you know, is that going to whatever you hear all these things,

Gregg DeMey  34:28

poems aren't true current poems aren't true.

Caryn Rivadeneira  34:32

But you know, you hear that people are so afraid to think differently because they think it'll just destroy their whole faith and that's mean God is pretty big and I don't think that's how it works. But

Gregg DeMey  34:44

I'm, I'm just, I'm just kidding. poems are true. Learn a whole

Caryn Rivadeneira  34:48

different level. Right? Right. Right. The creation story is very, very true.

Gregg DeMey  34:51

Thank God that you can always say all things in a factual prosaic way right. So speaking of People who did love to say things in factual prosaic ways Athens has been full of them through the years. So we are going to journey down the road to Athens. Just a tiny bit of geography, for the people who don't have maps in their head. But I mean, the modern country of Greece kind of sticks down into the Mediterranean Sea. It's kind of a peninsula, the Aegean Sea on the eastern side of the Adriatic Sea between Greece and Italy on the western side. And then in the south of Greece, there's kind of like a secondary little peninsula, called the Peloponnesus, which is really like the hothouse of Western culture, that little part of the world. So Paul is headed down there. So while Paul was waiting for them in Athens, he was greatly distressed to see that the city was full of idols. So he reasoned in the synagogue with both Jews and God-fearing Greeks, as well as in the marketplace day by day with those who happen to be there. A group of Epicurean and Stoic philosophers began to debate with him. And some of them asked, What is this babbler trying to say, and others remarked, he seems to be advocating foreign gods. They said this, because Paul was preaching the good news about Jesus and the resurrection. So then they took him brought him to a meeting of the area pegase, where they said to him, may we know what this new teaching is that you are presenting, you are bringing some strange ideas to our ears, and we would like to know what they mean. In parentheses, all the Athenians and foreigners who live there spent their time doing nothing but talking about and listening to the latest ideas.

Jeffrey Klein  36:46

Paul then stood up in the meeting of the Areopagus and said, People of Athens, I see that in every way you are very religious. For as I walked around and look carefully at your objects of worship, I even found an altar with this inscription, to an unknown God. So you are ignorant of the very thing you worship. And this is what I'm going to proclaim to you.

Caryn Rivadeneira  37:08

The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth, and does not live in temples made built by human hands. And he has not served by human hands as if he needed anything. Rather, he gives himself he himself gives everyone life and breath and everything else. From one man, he made all nations that they should inhabit the whole earth. And he marked out their appointed time in history and the boundaries of their lands. God did this so that they would seek Him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far away from any one of us. For in him, we live and move and have our being. As some of your own poets have said, We are his offspring,

Jeffrey Klein  37:51

their verses we are God's offspring, we should not think that the divine being is like gold or silver stone, an image made by human design and skill. In the past, God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent, for he has said a day when He will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to everyone by raising him from the dead.

Gregg DeMey  38:16

When they heard about the resurrection of the dead, some of them sneered, but others said, We want to hear you again on the subject. And that that Paul left the council, some of the people became followers of Paul and believed among them was Dionysius a member of the Areopagus, also a woman named Damaris, and a number of others. So Paul is in the big city and officially, The kingdom of God is in more majorly conflict with a different sort of Kingdom at this point.

Jeffrey Klein  38:51

Yeah, Greek Greek philosophers. So the epicureans and the stoics agreed on one thing, there was no life after death. That was one thing they agreed on. They had a lot of other things. But that's one of the major things that so this whole idea of a resurrection would have been super Like what?

Gregg DeMey  39:08

Well, the resurrection of the body in particular, right? I mean, the Greeks kind of were some of them were okay with the idea of the immortality of the soul, or the psyche, or the right, the spirit, but the idea that the material body would somehow be redeemable or survivable would have been, like, laughable and totally offensive.

Jeffrey Klein  39:27

Yeah, this sermon actually digs into a lot of the sermon Paul preaches is pretty interesting how he goes at several of these ideas, the Epicurean stoics and some of the Greek philosophy, the idea that you know, God started things he began things you began because, again, the immortality of the soul flies in the face of this idea that people have a beginning. Right? They begin with body soul, spirit, whatever body so however you say it, and they go forward from there only God's eternal, right but that if you were good, Epicurean or stoic you I thought Well you know your soul was floating around out there somewhere got planted in and all of nature is God in this this spirit of god the spark of God got planted in you which is kind of where you get your life from that when you die you just cease to exist so you just have to become this Sage if they go after this life of you know getting rid of pain in pursuing pleasure and all these kind of things pretty interesting

Caryn Rivadeneira  40:21

it is but I feel like Paul is actually appealing to that because he's talking about how sort of the Spirit of God in the in the world the way the nations are kind of spread out and I feel like he is saying like this was Dunn's that you would reach out and he's to me I see him acknowledging in their in their unknown God temple or idol sorry altar that they have there. That it's saying like yeah, this is because you are responding to that. I mean, they obviously had are their own gods, but I sort of feel like right I sort of feel like he is trying to appeal to their, to their philosophical nature and saying, No, this is your Curiosity is you reaching out to God?

Jeffrey Klein  41:00

I like him. He complements them. Yeah, you're very religious, I will totally he starts out not ripping. I'm like, you guys are messed up. Yet, but I really you're you're super religious, I can see that you've got Gods here. And you know, you're really, really a very religious group,

Caryn Rivadeneira  41:14

which they were. That's true. Right. He appreciates their palates.

Gregg DeMey  41:18

I'm a little uncertain about that. I mean, I don't think like most of the intellectual Greeks, like ever believed in the pantheon of Greek gods, you don't think?

Jeffrey Klein  41:27

Yeah, the Stoics and Epicureans probably were not super into the gods. They were probably they said the gods were remote and on involved in human life. So even though they would have had this pantheon of gods and these statues, I mean, this is, this is happening, Mars Hill, which is where he is, is right by the Parthenon. So like he climbed the hill there, and you go up to the part that is higher than Mars Hills below or this Areopagus or the Areopagus as you're saying, How are you proud that you know, this group met there was kind of the chief court of Athens, right? They were meet there and they were, they put Socrates to death. They are Areopagus back in the day. For his crazy philosophical, right.

Gregg DeMey  42:10

So little linguistic confusion. I wish the an NIV translation just had Mars Hill. Yes, that would be easier, more convenient. So we have this English word. I'm not sure how we got it. Areopagus or Areopagus. It takes three words in Greek to say that I mean, I think the Greek phrases to Areo-Pagus. Yeah, no, honestly. Yeah. And I don't know in American English, we tend to put the accent on words. Like Yeah, later Brits do it earlier, but the actual Greek word would be pagos. So I always end up saying area pigas.

Jeffrey Klein  42:50

It's okay whatever I mean, it is i i've got I got to stand on Mars Hill. Yeah, it's still there. 

Gregg DeMey  42:56

It's Mars Hill. 

Jeffrey Klein  42:56

You can go the Mars Hill and you can stand there and it's still there right below the Parthenon. And you can look at this whole the Parthenon, you know, you can picture this, where Paul's walking, there's all these in the Parthenon, all these different statues to Gods and the fact that Athens was a super learned place. Like this is like the the smartest of the culture and this is like the university town. Like Elmhurst or Wheaton. You know, the university town, lots of really learned people. But it's interesting to me that it doesn't eliminate idolatry. It just makes it more sophisticated.

Caryn Rivadeneira  43:29

I guess I always felt like the Greek and Roman gods or the Nordic Gods for that matter. I mean it's it's a different sort of so called religion it's just trying to make sense of the Worldwide Church I guess. People say that we do as well you know, just trying to make sense of the world. So I see the overlap between this sort of religion Yeah, it's very sophisticated, but and philosophy, it's, it doesn't seem very disconnected to me.

Gregg DeMey  43:53

So there's likely another cultural element going on here. Like probably Paul has not been in Athens before. theoretically possible, right? But I mean, just the way that language and culture works. I mean, Paul grew up hundreds and hundreds of miles to the east of here. He probably speaks good Greek so is intelligible but like the folks in Athens would be the equivalent of having like, the posh English accent and talking about super intellect. And Paul is gonna sound like a hillbilly to that. Yeah, right. Right. So he's talking about these super significant things and trying to meet them on this plane and like, clearly you're not from around here. Babbler Yeah. Weird. Awesome that Luke kind of quotes them as referring to him like as a babbler, which is not to say he's, you know, not well spoken or clever, but probably has to do with like, oh, you're from like the hinterland of the eastern part of the Empire. And we can,

Caryn Rivadeneira  44:53

chuckled at that a little bit. Maybe Luke was judgmental about his accent too.

Jeffrey Klein  44:57

And he's and he said, he says, he's he He's advocating foreign gods. I know who criticize them. The early church father says that they thought he might be advocating to Gods because Jesus is a masculine Greek verb and resurrections a feminine Greek verb and so treesize some goes as far to say he thinks that the people were confused and maybe he was talking about Jesus is one God and resurrection is another guy. It seems kind of crazy, but that's that's rewrites.

Gregg DeMey  45:26

Okay, verbs don't have gender. I got confused there.

Jeffrey Klein  45:30

It's a nice a verb, yeah. Noun, a noun resurrections noun, so I just use the wrong. Okay, I just use the wrong part of speech. It's one part of speech. Sorry.

Gregg DeMey  45:41

I'm easily confused. Being a babble or myself. Yeah. So like Paul does a masterful job, obviously, meeting them on their own turf, and as you said, kind of referring to their own sort of religious artifacts that are there. I mean, he also is, like, smart enough to drop some, like Greek quotes on them. Yeah. From their own body of literature. Like this is really impressive.

Jeffrey Klein  46:06

It's super impressive that this Jewish man would know this, these Greek poets and what they say, That's impressive.

Gregg DeMey  46:13

I wonder if Paul has is like getting coached up in the background?

Jeffrey Klein  46:17

Yeah, I don't know. It's very cool. But pays to be well read.

Caryn Rivadeneira  46:21

I mean, that's a good I mean, that's, you know, I don't know, I think that's always going to be a technique is to be able to speak to people in a in a, you know, through their culture through a popular understanding of other experiences and connect that I

Jeffrey Klein  46:35

will don't people respect if you have actually read, not just judged it, because you just get we're told by somebody, well, this is a bunch of garbage, but then you actually picked it up and read it, and then appreciated

Caryn Rivadeneira  46:45

it and found value in it

Jeffrey Klein  46:49

is what your poet's say and you know, let me speak about that.

Gregg DeMey  46:53

Also, it's like, a knife in the ribs. When Paul says, like, in the past, God overlooks such ignorance, right? Like, what your calling is. So it's like he's he's trying to couch receiving the gospel, not just in terms of having a change of heart, but in terms of like receiving this, like divine wisdom or knowledge.

Jeffrey Klein  47:18

Yeah. And he's appealing to authority that they would respond to that, that the Hebrew Scriptures would have no authority here on the rap because on Mars Hill, they would be like, what Hebrew Scriptures? What does that Who cares? But this would have authority, these these ideas of authority, the Greek poets, right? So he's appealing to what they consider to have authority, this alertness and this, which is

Gregg DeMey  47:37

Yeah, and it's interesting, the things he quotes make the imminence of God, the nearness, the intimacy of God, like very real for folks who are inclined to be like no, the gods are on the top of Mount Olympus and they're not really there anyway, they're just these distant so to refer to like both we are his offspring, and that God has given everyone life and breath that sense of like nearness and being embodied and like the Divine Presence like that would have been I think kind of like a shocker like no we don't that's not a concept for us

Caryn Rivadeneira  48:20

it would have been shocking but I feel like it's also appealing to their intellect because it's speaking to that if God is that close if God is that present then God would be knowable in some sense and something that is you're able to explore you're able to study so it's I don't know it's appealing to me

Jeffrey Klein  48:37

and if you're talking if you're thinking in your mind that God's remote and Ron involved in life and now this guy comes and says no, he's super close and he's right near and you can actually connect with him Connect exactly that's a whole nother concept I I think of like guys like Tim Keller as like the modern day Paul right Tim Keller I've always envied his ability to just he's super smart and just to build reasonable arguments for the Christian faith you know CS Lewis obviously is another one that you know Mere Christianity those guys just let you read this and go wow, that's just brilliant i and t right man and T writes another one right? So these are g brilliant. scholars who are super learned they know and they can take and really build a very logical and accessible argument to the Christian faith and why it's true and why you should look into it. I've always envied that because I just don't have that same ability.

Gregg DeMey  49:30

Yeah, it's good you have the gifts you have though. Yeah, whatever

Jeffrey Klein  49:33

I'm just saying I just know that you know I've often thought well I'd be really cool to do that but I just don't you know just don't don't don't quite have the mind that works that way.

Gregg DeMey  49:44

No, it's kind of the engineering mind like a level of theological precision then I don't know like a cute Yeah, I mean, I think a certain amount of just like, I've seen videos this dress comes along with like having a mind that operates with that low incision and all the time. Yeah.

Jeffrey Klein  50:00

But I've seen videos of Keller in rooms full of seekers having these conversations and they're it's, it's amazing just off the top of his head, it seems unprepared is just bringing reason. It's kind of what happens in alpha, like you're sitting in alpha and you're thinking, Okay, how do I enter into this? So even last week, it was kind of cool happen, like you're just in a whole conversation alphen preaching that conflict kind of broke out about what's wrong with the human race and, you know, are we good or not good. And, and so to be able to then enter into that is really important at that point and go, Okay, let's think what does the Bible say about this? And just, but in a way that is reasonable and gets people like intrigued and pulls them in versus? Yeah,

Gregg DeMey  50:41

yeah. Yeah. No, this is where I think in many cases, like church history does us favors though. Even though we have all kinds of modern technology. There's not that many new, like, brand new ideas under the sun, right? So like, just like that conversation at alpha. I mean, the church had that conversation 1700 years ago, like, in a very serious way. And like someone as smart as Tim Keller could probably like, reap, replay that. I mean, like, yeah, Agent debate, and then also pull out like the three pillars of like the proper Christian tried and true response to that. And then like, retranslate it for modern people.

Jeffrey Klein  51:17

I mean, yeah, these guys are based, that's a lot to do, like, real time it is. And these guys are basically asking that worldview questions like what's, you know, what's wrong with the world? And how do we fix it? You know, kind of Who are we first? And then you know, what's wrong with the world? How do we fix it? How do we get it to be right? That's really the basic question. So I said, you know, last week and alpha, it's late. The question is, why did Jesus die? Well, that digs into all those questions, or what's wrong with the world and how we think we get it to be better. And of course, there's all kinds of theories. But you know, if you really believe Jesus is the only way, then you have to kind of build a logical argument as to why is that true? Like, why is Jesus the only way Why, why wouldn't he die? Like, what's the point of that? Like, couldn't we just, you know, pursue this other these other methods. And that's what these Greek philosophers are really, they've come to their own conclusions about how the world works, how we got here, who we are, and what's wrong with it, and then how do we fix it?

Caryn Rivadeneira  52:08

Right and again, just as much as I appreciate all those minds, the field of apologetics and reasons is sometimes makes me a little nervous too, because I also just really appreciate the people who also just bring in experience the mystics when you talk about going back in church history and stuff to just that idea of, because for sometimes there isn't that he knows there are people who there's not going to be the definite answer, but it's the experience of God and that weird faith moment to have the unexplainable. So I feel like those two things together for

Gregg DeMey  52:36

me, this is 100%. Both and totally should be scientific. Yes. And open minded, like the bereans, but also, whatever the experiential and charismatic side of this have, like that's a different way of being open. Oh, absolutely.

Caryn Rivadeneira  52:51

Yeah, no, absolutely. I just appreciate and I feel like sort of probably both is going on here. Because he is kind of getting this, you know, the nearness of God. He's appealing to their minds, but,

Jeffrey Klein  53:02

and this is the same man who wrote in Corinthians, right? It's not by my wise and persuasive words, you'll come to know Jesus, but by a demonstration of the Spirit's power, yep. like whoa, First Corinthians, right? It's like that, you know, you'll never understand this unless the Spirit of God reveals it to you. We all my great arguments will not be the thing that convinces you by Jesus will be a revelation from the Lord.

Gregg DeMey  53:25

That doesn't mean he gives up on the argument exactly right. Yeah, just I almost see it like boxing, like the arguments kind of like, knock you off balance a little bit, or a different analogy, they kind of like knock down some of the hurdles that we instinctively erect. So if you have like 10 hurdles that are up that guy can never believe that because of, you know, these things are on the way. But like, intellectually, or with some intellectual honesty, like you can somewhat easily knock some of those hurdles down. So then there's like a level of openness or receptivity. So Paul kind of does this, but then at the end, like he, like tries to land the final punch with the resurrection. And like, that's where then the reactions kind of go three different directions. Like some people think he's just a lunatic at that point. They are whatever mocking or sneering him at him. Other folks are like, okay, that's super provocative. We're gonna have to talk more about this. And other people, due to the Spirit of God are the early adopters. And again, we get their names. And in each of these three cities, I think it's probably no accident. Luke mentions both believing Greek men and prominent Greek women. And here we have two guys, Dionysius who's like a member of this intellectual Council of the philosophers, and a woman named Damaris. Yeah.

Caryn Rivadeneira  54:53

Yeah, you always look at me when you're medicine. Oh, no, it's so exciting. It's really important, I think for people to understand this and to just get a name in there, I was talking recently about my book written grace. But there was a chapter in there called one hit wonders. And it was or one line wonders, maybe it was about a few of the women in the Bible who just get that one little line. And so it's tempting to sort of throw them off as that's sort of insignificant, but to be named in the scriptures is pretty incredible. Like that's, especially as a woman in those days, I don't think it was much better for women in Greek society than anywhere else in the in the world. But yeah,

Jeffrey Klein  55:29

yeah, it's, it's cool. It's cool that a member of the Areopagus comes to know Jesus, right, this moment, like something happens. And he's like, I believe, I think this is right. And I

Caryn Rivadeneira  55:39

think this is I mean, the three things, you know, those three responses are pretty good. I mean, yeah, people are always going to sneer at the message no matter what we say. But the idea that essentially two thirds, we don't know that officially, but that we're at least curious and or accepting. I mean, as I'm that's remarkable, that's great for people to want to hear you again, or at least to leave thinking about what you said is what the what the Spirit said to

Jeffrey Klein  56:03

me, this is a super exciting place to be able to speak and go like, this is like the fun of camp. Like you walk into a camp, there's hundreds of kids, probably more than half of them have no idea what you're talking about. They could care less they've not gone to church, they don't they have that grow, especially in the minority, this is even more true. Like more and more kids don't go to church. And so when they come to Christian camp, their parents sent them and they're literally listening to this for the first time, that is just a blast. Because then you're building and you're literally every night or every day, every morning and night, you're building an argument throughout the week for why they should consider this Jesus. And you're kind of going through these basic questions and it's it's a lot it's, it's, it's fun, it's exhilarating. It's super scary. You get a lot of people sneering at you bad, you get others that are you know, I'm getting receptive. Could

Gregg DeMey  56:51

you sum up? Like, if you're at a week of camp? Like, can you sum up either, like what you're building? Or conversely, like, what are the top three, like hurdles for young people that need to be, you know, overturned, so that the openness is there?

Jeffrey Klein  57:05

Well, I mean, I think you're, I tend to build on you know, just talking about, again, this idea of, you know, who we are, who we who are you really, what does the Bible say about who you are? versus like, you know, then I often talk about who is God or Jesus, like, are they laying out like, a lot of times kids think of Jesus, his guy walked the earth for 30 years. I love how, Carlos Ortiz says that 33 years on earth for Jesus, like 33 cents in a billionaire's pocket. So the idea that there's this cosmic Jesus, that is actually up there and having resurrected and is actually wanting to have a relationship with them just kind of laying out. This is who you are this Jesus our is Jesus, our legacy is Trinitarian. Yeah. And then I then I move into what went wrong? Like what's wrong? So Planet Earth is clearly a mess, everyone can see it, your lives, probably a mess, your family's probably a mess, everything you go in is a mess. And then I build the case for like, What went wrong? What happened? And how are you? Are you involved in that at all? Actually, you are right. But but then yeah, the barriers obviously, that you get into the week and start to present is loving God, this loving Jesus, who cares about us in charge of anything? The biggest barrier is well, then why is my life pilot garbage?

Gregg DeMey  58:24

Yeah. So I think that's really significant, maybe for our listeners is that you very wisely start with issues of identity. Yeah. personal identity with young people, which is like where it's at, where the door opens. And then Jesus identity. Yeah.

Jeffrey Klein  58:39

Sometimes I start with Jesus, and then they start with us, just depends on the week or the group of kids or what I think the Holy Spirit's telling me to do. Yeah. So it's, yeah,

Gregg DeMey  58:48

well, you're a good Calvinist John Calvin started his whole thing with like, what starts first knowing yourself or knowing God? Yeah. And then says something like, Who can say yeah, if you start with God, you end up knowing yourself better if you start with yourself, and are really ruthlessly honest you end up knowing God better so yeah, like knock yourself out.

Jeffrey Klein  59:07

Yeah. Yeah,

Caryn Rivadeneira  59:09

it's true.

Jeffrey Klein  59:10

It's good.

Gregg DeMey  59:13

All right.

Jeffrey Klein  59:14

Great chapter. Great chapter is

Gregg DeMey  59:17

amazing chapter of the Bible. So we get to have the extra fun of having whole worship service based on Acts 17 this coming Sunday.

Jeffrey Klein  59:25

Yeah. And attain team preaching.

Gregg DeMey  59:27

There will be tag team preaching, okay, hopefully a bell sound

Jeffrey Klein  59:32

will sound and we'll battle it out and then the next person will vote on who does it best. There you go, I

Gregg DeMey  59:36

believe Well, I'll be the first one in so

Caryn Rivadeneira  59:39

that's clearly gonna be a live phone afterwards.

Gregg DeMey  59:44

I'll body slam the powers of darkness and Thessalonica and Berea and then slap Klein's hand and he'll jump off the What do you call the rubber band rails and like WWE. Flying will spring in From the corner,

Jeffrey Klein  1:00:02

drag and take over

Gregg DeMey  1:00:04

your team.

Jeffrey Klein  1:00:06

We're on the same team, aren't we? So I'm not body slamming young body slamming something else the philosophies Yeah. That'd be exciting. be exciting.

Caryn Rivadeneira  1:00:14

Okay, Greek delicacies after church this week.

Jeffrey Klein  1:00:18

I think we're gonna have some cinnamon rolls. I've seen in the kitchen, some brownies.

Gregg DeMey  1:00:25

Greek desserts would be just right though. Alright, so that is one of the lovely things about being back together worshiping indoors, there is this opportunity to more enjoy the company of others and talk about what's going on. So hope to see you in person and then hope to see you afterwards out on the east patio for some refreshments and good conversations and follow up. Thanks to Billy Heschel who keeping us in good order actually. Now it's Kyle Olson. Did you guys exchange Thanks, guys. Whoo.

Jeffrey Klein  1:00:56

It's amazing.