Acts 19 - The Gospel is a Riot

Summary:
On this second-to-last podcast from the Book of Acts, Gregg DeMey (Lead Pastor), Kyle Groters (Youth Ministries Coordinator), and Laura Horner (Youth Ministries Assistant) wade into Acts 19. Listen in and find out what this chapter says why it's always "Moving Day" with God, the Seven Wonders of the Ancient World, and why iPhones would've burned in Ephesus.

Today's Hosts
Gregg DeMey, Lead Pastor
Kyle Groters, Youth Ministries Coordinator
Laura Horner, Youth Ministries Assistant

Questions/Comments:  We'd love to hear from you! Email ASK.

Note: Wade in the Word is a weekly podcast designed to take a deep dive into scripture for the weekend message. Join our pastors, staff, and occasional special guests as we reflect together.

Wade in the Word podcast is a production of Elmhurst Christian Reformed Church, located in Elmhurst, IL. Wade in the Word is produced and audio-engineered by Kyle Olson, Technical Director. For more information about Elmhurst CRC or to find out about other tools and resources to grow you and your family in faith, visit elmhurstcrc.org.

Transcript

Gregg DeMey  00:02

Hey Friends Welcome to Elmhurst. CRC's weekly Wade in the Word podcast. We are rocking some new equipment today. Check it out.

Gregg DeMey  00:14

While we have a rock and roll intro going a thanks to Billy Heschel and Kyle Olson for getting us set up with a beautiful little podcasting mixing board. They are currently walking away and leaving the podcasters to their own devices, which could be a dangerous thing because I am sitting here with our youth ministries department today. Yes, Kyle Groters. 

Kyle Groters  00:37

Yeah. 

Gregg DeMey  00:38

And the incomparable Laura Horner. 

Laura Horner  00:40

Hey.

Gregg DeMey  00:43

So, thanks for being flexible and hanging out and talking about the Bible today. I think this is podcast 20 something on the book of Acts. We're in Acts chapter 19. But there were a few chapters that we sliced and diced into multiple pieces and podcasts. But so glad that you guys can be along for the ride.

Kyle Groters  01:03

As to we're excited sweet.

Gregg DeMey  01:06

So just by way of intro, I mean Kyle's been on before but this is your first time I'm recognizing that maybe one of the themes right now going on in life is moving. Yeah, so without you can get as deep or shale into this as you want but I think the horners are literally moving. I witnessed part of Kyle and Grace Groters moving recently and then as I cast my mind on memory lane, my wife Sarah and I are going to have our 30th anniversary this year we have moved more than 20 times wow 30 years of marriage so we have been very stable in our Elmhurst years only three moves in 13 years now. Yeah, yeah

Laura Horner  01:43

that's awesome. Yes, we are moving for the first time in 15 years so it's been the longest my husband Chris has actually ever lived in one place before this is the longest he's you know, been in the same job or in the same state and so he's been itching to move along and we're going a whole bout a half mile three quarters of a mile away from our current home. But we're really excited about our new neighborhood new neighbors and new neighbors Laura we have a bunch of ERC families that will be there because we'll be in Congress Knolls -  in the holy hood

Laura Horner  02:20

we're very excited and God's totally loved this this was not an anticipated move whatsoever at all you know this just kind of spurred on about three weeks ago so

Gregg DeMey  02:30

well Well the thing is about whether you move 3000 miles or three blocks you still literally have to pick up everything put most of it in a box carry it to a truck and then do the same on the reverse side it's a really it's a process it's just you know how many miles a truck drives Yes.

Laura Horner  02:47

And last time the military moved us so it's a new adventure moving ourselves.

Gregg DeMey  02:53

Right on. I believe Kyle has done some time in the the holiness of Congress Knolls as well as a lad. 

Kyle Groters  03:00

Actually I have and then the Horner's new place is in the backyard of my parents current place. So yeah, really neighbors.

Laura Horner  03:09

Absolutely.

Gregg DeMey  03:11

really like to know some stories of things you've done in that backyard in the past a lot,

Kyle Groters  03:14

a lot of things.

Gregg DeMey  03:18

Awesome. So part of the reason I bring this up is because like one of the things that the Bible does for us, Lord willing is like always moving us. And one of the one of the reasons I think, like we generally resist moving is because like we recognize, like, Wow, it is so much work. Right? It's gonna be a full time job for you, Laura for like months. Absolutely. But truth be told, like, God is always on the move. Holy Spirit's always up to something. This is not a knock on like, staying in the same job staying in the same church, staying rooted with your friends and family and people. There's beautiful things about that. Truth is like the deepest things, the most challenging moves are the inward, like changes and growth and shifts in our heart and spirit. So my long term prayers is the podcast is just a tiny little part of God's work to help us as a community and person by person. Keep moving? Yes, absolutely. Well, with that in mind, we're gonna launch into Acts chapter 19. And we'll share with you with the first 10 verses Laura, if you would get us kicked off

Laura Horner  04:31

Absolutely. While Apollos was at Corinth, Paul took the road through the interior and arrived at Ephesus There he found some disciples and asked them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" They answered, "No, we have not heard that there is a holy spirit." So Paul asked, "Then what baptism did you receive?" "John's baptism," they replied,

Gregg DeMey  04:54

and then Paul said, "John's baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him that is in Jesus." And I'm hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. And when Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them. And they spoke in tongues and prophesied. There were about 12 men in all.

Kyle Groters  05:15

Paul entered the synagogue, and spoke boldly there for three months, arguing persuasively about the kingdom of God. But some of them became obstinate, they refuse to believe and publicly maligned the way. So Paul left them, he took the disciples with him and had discussions daily in the lecture hall of Tyrannus this went on for two years so that all the Jews and Greeks who lived in the province of Asia heard the word of the Lord.

Gregg DeMey  05:40

All right, awesome. Well, speaking of moving, Paul has been a man on the move for much of the book of Acts here, sailing across the Mediterranean traveling over Roman roads by land. He recently got back from modern Greece to Israel then did kind of a walking tour through the churches that he planted and what what would be modern Turkey, and now now kind of stays put for more than two years in the city of Ephesus, which for Paul is almost like settling down.

Kyle Groters  06:14

Getting cozy. Yeah.

Gregg DeMey  06:15

Yeah, so one of the interesting little quirks is like this guy, Apollos, who was a native of Alexandria in Egypt, or Africa, Jewish guy. He had spent some time near Ephesus, and then he ended up going to Corinth for an extended stint. So Paul had been in Corinth, and then Apollos ended up there. Apollos had been in Ephesus in that area, and then Paul ends up there. So it's almost like they swap. So I find this wonderful because like, no one leader, no one pastor, no one, like, you know, nobody has everything. Right. So I think in God's in the Holy Spirit's wisdom, he's like, rotating the different gifts and styles and like experiences through what are going to be these super influential early Christian communities.

Gregg DeMey  06:15

Yeah, yeah, he's getting that church just, I feel like he's lining up these leaders for the different specific times when there's thing happening, and just their pastors keep crossing. I think that there could be learning from each other or even equipping each other for the next bit of the journey.

Gregg DeMey  07:32

Yeah, so when a Paulus just this this was the next chapter 18 he had a similar experience to the 12 individuals around Ephesus who were baptized in in the baptism of john the baptist, the baptism of repentance and then not yet baptized in Jesus name not yet received the gift of the Holy Spirit and it's it's almost like a little repeat of the scene of Pentecost Hear that? Right baptized in Jesus name call upon the Holy Spirit, and like a charismatic experience breaks out. speaking in tongues. So yeah, for sure. in baptism, I think there's there's these two dimensions, both like the backward looking, repenting and receiving forgiveness for all the missing of the mark sins, errors, mistakes, and then also this kind of being like freshly empowered. Yeah, I wonder if you guys have any thoughts about that, or in working with young people who don't have as long of a track record of stupid things and sins as we do as adults? Well, I mean, honestly, yeah. I mean, we've all done enough to repent over by age 16. Right. On the other hand, like the older you get, you kind of recognize that there's a cumulative power to just all the nonsense you've been up to in the course of life, and recognizing that some of it is not just like, Oh, I did this wrong thing. It's like, Oh, this actually goes to like, the roots of my personality and character. And yeah, like, that's a repentance that cuts much deeper than just like, I'm sorry, I said this to you, friend.

Kyle Groters  09:15

Right. Now, it's giving up of selfish, selfish desires and things that run pretty deep. But there's baptism discussion, I think is so interesting, especially this two baptism thing that we have going on in this passage, because Paul seems caught off guard. To say the least, like, what what do you mean you haven't been by the Holy Spirit. At this point, Holy Spirit's pretty important. Like we've gotten far enough into Acts into the development of the early church, the Holy Spirit, he's moving He is known. And yet Paul is finding people that know quite a bit of what's going on, have received some serious truth but are missing a really vital part of the piece of the puzzle, right? And I think In one of Paul's letters, he's writing about baptism. But he's and he speaks about there being one baptism later down the road, right? And I'm, and I'm thinking through these sorts of passages where Paul is experiencing people who haven't been baptized yet by the Spirit in the spirit, and imagining him thinking through like we got to figure out, we got to understand that there's something integral to what's happening here, with the movement of the Holy Spirit and connecting baptism to that, lest we miss the importance of what's happening here, right? As far as it goes to our students, a lot of them were baptized as infants, not all of them, right? And that's a whole new dimension as well to bring into how do we think through both the past looking repentance and then also the anointing, the filling the Holy Spirit and the movement to the future, when baptism happens as an infant? And how do we think through that? And how do we allow our baptisms if our students are baptized as infants, or if we were baptized as influencers, young children? How do we let those that event that sacraments speak into our future lives? How do we allow that to be something that is full of life and joy, and can be referenced again, and again, it's something that I think we're still trying to figure out what our students because it's sort of hard to grasp for them.

Laura Horner  11:14

Yeah. When I hear this better scripture, I think I just have so much compassion for these people that they didn't, they didn't know that there was more, they didn't know that the Holy Spirit was going to come on them. And probably, I would assume it would radically change their lives after that. One verse that comes to mind specifically for me was when I was between the ages of 16. And 17, just went through a really big struggle, spiritually in my own life. And I ended up a friend gave me a Bible verse and she said, I think that this is a verse that's really going to speak to you, I ended up getting a tattooed on me. So I would remember it forever. But it's Philippians 313, we're polishing.

Laura Horner  11:56

For brothers. I'm not saying I've already arrived. But I'm letting go of my past, I'm striving for what's ahead. And I feel like that just applies so beautifully here, it reminded me of the fact that we get hung up on our past mistakes, like you said, they become almost identifiers on us. And it's something that is a process of letting go of those mistakes of not letting them identify us of letting Jesus Christ identify us as we move forward and letting the Holy Spirit identify who we are.

Laura Horner  12:27

So I thought, those are just two things that came to mind when I was reading that today.

Gregg DeMey  12:32

Right on, so you're saying you have a tattoo, Laura, that's what I heard. That was not the most significant thing.

Laura Horner  12:40

It's a great way to memorize Bible verses

Gregg DeMey  12:42

can indeed, one of the things that strikes me is we could for sure be more intentional about praying for a fresh anointing of the Holy Spirit like and significant transitional moments. I mean, in a way, every at the beginning of every academic year, the end of every academic year, like in the lives of our young people, like those are big moments. And then, I mean, especially the passage from elementary school, to middle school, middle school, to high school, and then high school to whatever lies beyond. So I'm not giving you job orders right now. But like, I think like we could find, we could find a way to try to, like, collect families and students together and honestly, like, lay hands on and pray for a fresh feeling of the Holy Spirit. Because I believe there's like two dimensions to this, like, in one sense, like as you're attached to Jesus, like your lifelong, eternally full of his spirit. Right? But in terms of, like new expressions, not that the Holy Spirit leaks, but it's like, we can't contain the Holy Spirit. So when we receive those moments of anointing, they don't last forever. And we're, I think, wise to pray for invite these fresh moments of being filled up.

Kyle Groters  13:58

Yeah, I think leaking the right vein to take it down. Except for I wouldn't even just push that out. It's overflowing, right? Talking about, even just the love that exists between Father, Son and Holy Spirit, like that's an overflowing life and love. And I think that's what's happening in the anointing of the Spirit is God is giving us that overflow. And we can't even get we're not going to continue forever. But we definitely want to be in tune to when he's moving in that way back to the movement idea, right?

Laura Horner  14:26

One of my favorite moments that we do, surrounding profession of faith actually is when we get together with our students that are making profession of faith. They get together with their mentors, and we all sit in a big room and we talk about what the Lord's done in their life to lead them to the moment of professional faith. In conclusion to that meeting, what we do is we all lay hands on them and we pray, we anoint them, our elders, anoint them with oil, and then we pray over these students. It's such a beautiful mo is one of my favorites that we do and I think that that is that New Beginning in their their Christian walk and their faith in God and to anoint them at that time is just incredible.

Gregg DeMey  15:08

That's exactly what I was thinking of. So I'm trying to express the longing like we could do that more often. Yeah. And professional faith, for sure. Like it's super special in the stories and testimonies of our young adults like are front and center right there. Yeah, I guess Paul does say, you know, we carry around this treasure and clay jars. I mean, his image is like more light leaks out as a result of our brokenness. But as I guess, same thing, we carry around the like living water. Yeah, in clay jars as well. So

Laura Horner  15:41

and as it pours out, we have to remember that there are other things that are trying to fill into those cavities as well. So as those things kind of leak out, we have to re consume of the Holy Spirit so that way, other things don't fill in and break into who our identity is becoming.

Kyle Groters  15:59

Just alright word.

Gregg DeMey  16:01

Alright, love it. Well, with this notion in mind of like amazing things happen when followers of Jesus have a fresh filling of the Holy Spirit. The next little bit of Acts 19 is super curious and dramatic along these lines. So we are going to read from Acts 19:11 through 22. If you'd get us rolling Kyle.

Kyle Groters  16:27

Yeah, absolutely. starting at verse 11. God did extraordinary miracles through Paul so that even handkerchiefs and aprons that touched him were taken to the sick, and their illnesses were cured and the evil spirits left them.

Gregg DeMey  16:40

Some Jews who went around driving out evil spirits tried to invoke the name of the Lord Jesus over those who are demon possessed. And they would say, quote, in the name of the Jesus whom Paul preaches, I command you to come out on quote, seven sons of Sceva a Jewish priest, we're doing this and one day the evil spirit answered them, quote, Jesus, I know and Paul I know about, but who are you? And then the man who had the evil spirit jumped on them and overpowered them all he gave them such a beating that they ran out of the house, naked and bleeding.

Laura Horner  17:18

When this became known to the Jews and Greeks living in Ephesus, they were all seized with fear, and the name of the Lord Jesus was held in high honor. Many of those who believe now came and openly confessed what they had done. A number who had practiced sorcery brought their scrolls together and burn them publicly. When they calculated the value of the scrolls. The total came to 50,000 drachmas in this way, the word of the Lord spread wildly, and it grew in power.

Kyle Groters  17:47

After all this had happened. Paul decided to go to Jerusalem, passing through Macedonia and akia after I had been there, he said I must visit Rome also. He said to his helpers Timothy and arrest us to Macedonia oh he stayed in the province of Asia a little longer

Gregg DeMey  18:06

wow what an amazing scene This is we're kind of close to Halloween and this is like one of the most I don't know Halloween-ish spooky. Yes, spooky. Really disconcerting on the one hand, but kind of hilarious at the same time the way Luke tells it I mean the quote of this evil spirit Jesus I know Paul I know about but who are y'all

Laura Horner  18:32

it's like name dropping gone wrong.

Kyle Groters  18:35

So wrong man I yeah, the demons words. So it reminds me of CS Lewis's Screwtape Letters like yeah it's that almost vibe right like this deep demon not I mean playful is not quite the right word, but he's definitely poking fun I would say these these guys trying to call out demons and do miracles right he's definitely poking fun. But even just the way he does things I know Jesus like I'm and I know about Paul but like I'm familiar with who you're talking about. Right? Like it. There's even in the midst of poking fun there is a certain amount of terrified all I probably have, like, I know who this guy is. And I know this guy's important too. But

Laura Horner  19:25

who the heck are you? Well, and I think it's interesting to him like so this demon. They know Jesus. But do these sorcerers know Jesus? Like did they actually know Jesus? I don't

Gregg DeMey  19:36

know. Yeah, so for sure there's power in the name of Jesus, but it's not a magic word. Right? Right. And again, 2000 years ago, Jesus was like one of the top three names in a big part of the world. So it was not, you know, some unique or never heard before, you know, magical utterance. So the power in the name of Jesus comes through relationship. up not through the syllables and not through the proper pronunciation and these guys knew the word knew the name we're trying to leverage the power but had none of the relationship right they were not filled up with the Spirit of Jesus at this point

Gregg DeMey  20:23

yes, I had so many great little things that would cause him the seven sons of skiba it just rolls off the tongue like a great band name.

Kyle Groters  20:33

Like something a pirate story and seven sons of Sceva

Laura Horner  20:37

exactly I think of like schemes like they're up to these schemes

Kyle Groters  20:41

does sound like that a little bit? That's funny. Yeah.

Gregg DeMey  20:45

Yeah, so the reaction to this I mean, after this encounter, they run out of the house clothes torn naked and bleeding. Luke says again, it sort of sounds like a Hollywood horror film. But the town reaction is like everybody takes us seriously so one of the things that folks took for granted 2000 years ago was that there's an invisible world and there are powerful things going on beyond what our material eyes and ears can see and hear. So like, that's a given we moderns don't necessarily share that as a given or live our lives day by day with that as a given like for sure I have that conviction but I mean there's multiple days in a role that I can go by without really like being strongly impressed by the fact that the material world is only a shadow compared to actual reality right? So the town reaction is like everybody takes us seriously like we might need to give up on our our magical non Jesus attached nonsense and take this seriously.

Laura Horner  21:58

Yeah, and this was like a huge way of life for them. I mean, this is, you know, everything is ingrained and to this sorcery are holding on to stones or small idols that are there and the way that they grow, they decorated their homes even so I don't know it'd be like us piling everything in our house and throwing it out in the street to be burned. Things that they were holding so precious. I just they were so impressed by this to do that.

Gregg DeMey  22:29

Yeah, I was trying to think of some modern equivalent So Luke records that they you know, burn all these scrolls and magical items and that you know, the total is 50,000 drachmas, which is a Greek silver coin worth about a day's wages. So like the modern equivalency in value is like more than $4 million. Like more than $4 million of stuff, like goes up in flames as a result. Yeah, so like, that's a big deal. Like this is more than just like, oh, okay, I guess we'll talk about Jesus a little bit. It's like, so I am looking right now. Sorry, we're not recording this, but I'm looking at a new phone I got Oh, yes. It's a mini my last phone survived more than three years. I never had a case on it. I actually, my very clever spouse, Sarah talked me into putting out this sparkly case on it. And I think maybe this phone is the equivalent for me, of what these ancient like books and scrolls were. So again, in the ancient world to own a book, not a common thing. So if you had a book that, you know, had the right words, or like, thought you could open up an entryway into unseen realms, like that would be a super valuable book. So I think it was, you know, if I got the smallest font I could find because I'm trying to have the smallest technology intrusion in my life. But if you get like a new, you know, iPhone 13 Pro, we're recording this in October 2021. So like, that's a new great thing. Like, one of those is like, 1000 bucks. Yes. Right. So if 4000 people took $1,000 phone, and just like, pitched it as a result of like, wow, God's real and like, that would kind of be the modern equivalent. Yeah. 4000 people times $1,000. Yeah.

Laura Horner  24:31

Think about how compelled you would have to be like, but I honestly think about how compelled you'd have to be if this is blacking you, and you have the thought of this is blocking me from the Holy Spirit. I'm willing to give this thing up.

Kyle Groters  24:48

And or scared to death. Yeah. scared out of your mind. Listen, if I was, if I was, if I heard some crazy guy was beating people up and said that I'm running one on seven. And this dude Jesus was somehow involved in all of it. I'm like, I don't want to I don't want to get beat up like this sounds like a bad situation standard change something up, you know,

Gregg DeMey  25:08

stand the right side of this Jesus dude. All right. Well, we could take a long, tangential detour down whether our phones are helping or creating obstacles for us another

Kyle Groters  25:21

podcast, probably Yeah, absolutely. Certainly.

Gregg DeMey  25:26

So one last little detail in this passage is Luke mentions that Timothy and a rastus, are traveling around with Paul. And for sure, this is like one of the themes that leaks through the details, like Paul is always bringing around younger next generation leaders with him. And given that we're sitting here together today, just want to allow you guys maybe to talk out loud about what you observe how that's going in the context of our spiritual community. Yeah, absolutely. Don't sugarcoat it, guys.

Kyle Groters  26:03

Well, you know, we, we regularly try to impress upon the students, that the majority of the significant biblical actors, that his participants in the biblical narrative are in the vicinity of their age, not all of them by any means. But most of them at least got their start. Many of them we meet for the first time when they're in their teenage years, presumably, I mean, that to my best knowledge, like it's, it can feel distant, like this is a bunch of adults doing a bunch of crazy things. But in reality, it's a bunch of 14 to 20 year olds, running around moving and shaking for much of the text Old and New Testament. And that's, that's a hard thing to grasp as a big cultural gap in some ways. But we try to regularly encourage our students to think through, listen, these young men and women are not, I mean, they're very different from you. But as far as some basic fundamental realities of teenage life, they're not so different from you. And,

Gregg DeMey  27:07

yes, certainly, like, How old was David? When Samuel called him? How old were Jesus disciples. So it's not like they had it all figured out. But like, if you're gonna walk God's way, like the starting point, or the point where you're like, yep, my life has gone this way. Like, God is eager to start young.

Laura Horner  27:24

Yeah. But if you look too at these, these characters in the Bible, these people, they always had somebody alongside with them. They had adults in their lives that were near them, or pouring into them. When we look in this passage, and we have Timothy, I mean, what we know of Timothy is that he had a mother and his grandmother, right that were pouring into him. And then now he had Paul as this mentor. And so when I think about this in our own context of ecrc, i, this is something that I think we can always do better at, honestly, I remember in my own church growing up, I went to a very small church, where there was probably about 50 to 100 people there. 100 people is generous, but

Gregg DeMey  28:14

everybody knows your name.

Laura Horner  28:15

But that was the key. I was known when I was a teenager. I had Auntie's that I could go to, I still have them in my life that I could go to, I can name the family, they had home that all of us teenagers, we just ended up there as a landing ground. sometimes they'd even set up band equipment. So the band that had joined out of the youth group could practice and play in their home. And I think about that, and I'm like, wow, I wonder how many there's many of our youth could say, Yes, I could point to a handful of adults in our congregation that could speak to that. But how many of our adults can say, Oh, I know this many teenagers in our youth program. And then also, the cool thing that's happening that we've noticed in ECRC youth ministry is a bunch of our students, I would say we're getting close to half now aren't even from our congregation. They're outside of ECRC.

Gregg DeMey  29:17

And so how is this possible? Laura, where are they coming from?

Laura Horner  29:21

They're being invited by friends. Yeah, they're being invited inside. And so now how are these students getting to know the adults in our church? And if they're not here on Sunday morning, how are they meeting the adults? So that's a question that I think that Kyle and I are working on is how do we invite the seasoned generation into the lives of the students that they may not see on Sunday mornings?

Kyle Groters  29:52

Yeah. And Laura, you said we can, we can always do better and I would, I would even up that and say we must do better in this regard. Having had the privilege of growing up in this community, for not my whole life, but for much of it, and my, one of my parents growing up in this community for a time when she was younger as well, my mother did, really having a good view of the cross generational and the immensity of generations over time pouring into each other, and how beneficial that can be. I mean, I, I won't, because I don't necessarily need to, but I could, I mean, I think the three of us could, I could shoot off 10 names right now of seasoned saints, who I think would just thrive in relationships with young people, and who young people would love to learn from. And we haven't tapped into those resources. We haven't made those invitations. We haven't said, let's try to make this happen or figure out creative ways to do so in meaningful ways. And I think that there is, I mean, and some and to their credit, I mean, a couple weeks ago, Jack McNamara came to me and said, Kyle, I did pray on Saturday mornings, do you have any students give me their names. And if you want to bring any students with you some morning, where you want to have any students come, right, like, I mean, taking that extra step in saying I want to be involved in a concrete way. And that man, and you know, he has truth. Talk about some Holy Spirit movement, right. So that's one way that I think we need to continue to encourage and give an opportunity for our students another way shus participation in church life, our students are more hungry than we give them credit for to actually be active parts and have leadership roles. And what we're doing in worship on a Sunday morning, throughout the week, and different opportunities, yes, school makes scheduling difficult. But there's ample opportunity for our students to get involved. And we just need to figure out how to creatively invite them into that, I think, yeah,

Laura Horner  31:55

I think as a parent, too, I've spoken to a couple parents, I said, Look, I take this position that I'm in is just a huge responsibility. And because I'm a parent of teenagers, to my kids, attend youth ministry, and I know that for me, I will be a voice in their lives, I'll be an important voice in their lives. But I can't be the only voice there needs to be others. And if I expect that for my own children, then why not be the person to stand up for others, their children as well, it can't just be about my own little family, but it's about the big circular family,

Gregg DeMey  32:30

well, for sure, then developmentally, there's a point at which we as parents, like our voice doesn't land in the same sort of way. Right, and if there aren't others who are echoing and affirming what we tried to put into our kids, that's a problem. So if you are over 50, and listening to this podcast, I would like to challenge you a little bit. My observation is that, folks, as we head into later parts of life, the folks who are truly happy and joyful, have found a way to kind of like turn around and face a couple generations younger, and give something back or come alongside. And so there's a million different ways for this to happen. But if we as like Christians, in our later year, like viewed that as like a significant vocation, in our older years, or even in retirement, and like giving, giving life and passing on the good things that we've received to the the younger generation, the emerging generation, like that would be amazing. So I mean, maybe some time some one of us will tap somebody on the shoulder, the best way for it to happen is for you, listener to hit like have that thought and let the Holy Spirit prompt something out of you. And if you come forward with some idea, can I guarantee that it will be well received and heard and then we'll do some serious discerning over that whatever

Kyle Groters  33:59

we can to make things happen. Yeah, yeah.

Gregg DeMey  34:02

So sometimes we older folks, like, we just changed a little bit how Sunday morning worship here happens, right? coming out of the pandemic, like we're trying to be all together as one big family and change is hard. And it's maybe easier, especially for some of our older folks to be a little like, I wish I didn't have to go through this change as well. But the real like if you take a couple steps back for me like the the real significance of what's going on right now is not just every Sunday morning by Sunday morning. Like it is significant, like we meet God, but but the how of details of how it happens, like relatively unimportant in the big cosmic theme. But here we are 2000 years after the death and resurrection of Jesus and generation after generation has like successfully. I mean because of the Holy Spirit's help, like pass the baton of faith on Yeah, and Like that's what's happening right now, year after year, and you can't necessarily see it on any particular Sunday, right are the moments where you do see it are like, Oh, I just professions of faith happened today or like this 20 year old just got baptized, like, it's awesome when there are moments like that, yeah. But the most significant thing that has happened that happens here in any given year is this sharing and passing on of the faith. Yeah, and I have such a longing, like if we could be if we could keep our eyes just like on that higher vision. And be like, as passionate and excited about like, this is what I want to do. Yeah, and even if all the songs stink, even if the sermon is horrible, like the opportunity for God, like to use that particular Sunday as one small part of this bigger, eternal project of sharing faith and helping grow one another. Like, that's where it's at.

Kyle Groters  35:57

Yeah, and I would say, before we move on, even just that passion, in that life in Christ, and in the spirit, year after year, passing that on, that's really what our students are longing for unif, they don't necessarily realize that my generation as a 27 year old, and those behind me and coming up behind me, they really want to be part of a community. That is that really believes what she says she believes, right? The reason a lot of my generation and generations coming up or leaving the church is not because they don't want to believe or necessarily because they are wanting to doubt God or doubting Jesus, but they are struggling looking at a church, broad perspective, that doesn't necessarily seem to match up with what she says she believes. What they desperately want us to be part of a community where men, women, children together, all ages, and seasons are passionately seeking God and experiencing his presence and his power and moving with the spirit. So whatever we can do to make that happen together, that's going to be one of the largest testaments in ways that we can successfully pass this on to our youth and invite them into participation because they don't want to be part of something that's not moving. Right? They want to be part of something that's moving and breathing.

Gregg DeMey  37:13

Yes, so some encouraging data just out of the last couple of weeks, American millennials more than 50% pray to a personal God every day. So less those who are older, like me kind of feel negative or like, there's a super spiritual generation just dominated by TechNet. Like, no, actually, maybe there's like something like going on. Yeah, something's happening.

Kyle Groters  37:39

Yeah, I would say so.

Laura Horner  37:40

Yeah, well, and I think it's interesting to like in our text today that we were reading over where they were bringing, you know, even handkerchiefs that have been touched or whatever, I mean, that that goes back to in Ephesus the grounding of just sorcery that was there and God was still using it. Like even that pagan. Bit of sorcery he decided in any can to use that. I think we see that nowadays, even with phones like or technology is we are seeing communication being a way that God can use it. God can use anything.

Kyle Groters  38:17

Oh, for sure. Yeah, this podcast? Yeah,

Laura Horner  38:19

absolutely. Yeah. I mean, we've we've had students text us and say, Hey, I saw this interesting thing on Tik Tok about, you know, and it spoke to me from the Holy Spirit. And Kyle and I both rolled our eyes when we heard about it, but then we actually saw and we're like, wow, actually, that's really good information in that one specific thing. Yep. But God still uses

Gregg DeMey  38:44

it. redemptive power is pretty pervasive. Yes, yes,

Laura Horner  38:48

indeed. Absolutely.

Gregg DeMey  38:50

But you're telling me if I get one of Kyle's old t shirts that won't do anything for my health?

Laura Horner  38:55

Just, I mean, I might do something for

Gregg DeMey  38:59

something positive for my lovely, thank you for sharing those insights. We still have one major scene left in Acts chapter 19, in which the gospel causes a riot of sorts in the city of Ephesus. So let's take it to the end of the chapter. And then we'll talk a little bit about that.

Kyle Groters  39:21

Yeah. starting at verse 23. About that time, there arose a great disturbance about the way a silversmith named Demetrius, who made silver shrines of Artemis, brought in a lot of business for the Craftsman there. He called them together along with the workers and related trades and said, You know, my friends that we receive a good income from this business. And you see in here how this fellow Paul has convinced and led astray large numbers of people here in Ephesus, and then practically the whole province of Asia. He says, God's made by human hands are no Gods at all. There's danger not only that our trade will lose its good name, but also that the Temple of the great goddess Artemis will be disrupted. It and the goddess herself who is worshipped throughout the province of Asia, and the world will be robbed of her divine majesty.

Gregg DeMey  40:07

When they heard this, they were furious and began shouting great as Artemis of the Ephesians. And soon the whole city was in an uproar. The people seized Gaius and Aristarchus, Paul's travelling companions from Macedonia and all of them rushed into the Ephesian theater together. Paul wanted to appear before the crowd, but the disciples would not let him smart. Even some of the officials of the province friends of Paul sent him a message begging him not to venture into the theater. The assembly was in confusion, some of them shouting one thing some another most of the people did not even know why they were there. The Jews in the crowd pushed Alexander to the front and they shouted some instructions to him. Alexander motion for silence in order to make a defense before the people but then when they realized he was a Jew, they all shouted in unison for about two hours. Great is Artemis of the Ephesians.

Laura Horner  41:01

The city clerk quieted the crowd and said follow Ephesians doesn't all the world know the city of Ephesus is the guardian of the Temple of the great Artemis and of her image, which fell from heaven. Therefore, since these facts are undeniable, you ought to come down and not do anything rash. You have brought these men here, though they have neither Rab temples or blasphemed are goddess, if then Demetrius and his fellow craftsmans have a grievance against anybody. The courts are open, and there are pro counsels. They can press charges. If there is anything further you want to bring up It must be settled in illegal assembly, as it is we are in danger of being charged with writing because of what happened today. In that case, we would not be able to account for this commotion since there is no reason for it. Whoo.

Gregg DeMey  41:53

Everywhere The Spirit of Jesus goes, there's just peace, everyone's calm and gets along with each other. Now everywhere the Holy Spirit goes in the book of Acts total chaos erupts. strikes me that one of the signs of a false prophet in the Old Testament is that they're always promising peace. You know, whereas like real profits, there's always some trouble there's always some moving, because God is perhaps always on the move. And yeah, so we for sure, I mean, after the last couple years, and in the coronavirus-era can like relate to public outcry and kind of like chaos in the streets. And this is like quite a scene of it. So what might not dawn on us 2000 years later is that in the city of Ephesus my sister actually lives like right near here modern Izmir is the city of Ephesus. And she lived there for a few years. Anyway, in Ephesus was one of the Seven Wonders of the Ancient World. Not that we can recite the Seven Wonders of the Ancient World, I don't know if I'll remember all of them. But a couple of them, for sure. Still known to us the Hanging Gardens of Babylon. The Great Pyramid of Giza, which is the only one that still exists, there's a huge lighthouse in like 400 feet high and Alexandria, or Apollos was from there was a statue on the island of Rhodes the size of the Statue of Liberty, even a little bigger, called the Colossus of Rhodes. And one of them was the Temple of Artemis in Ephesus. So in terms of like tourist destinations 2000 years ago, like if emphasis was kind of like one of the places where it's at and like, just like, you can go to Ellis Island and get a little miniature of the Statue of Liberty or you get like a New York City poster. There's this whole like, trade around tourism and this dude Demetrius sounds like, you know, he had probably a pretty good little small business going, you know, making a good way to himself gathers all the other folks are like, this whole Jesus stuff. What Paul is talking about, like, this is bad for business, like people listen to him, and then, like, they don't come to the temple anymore. Their family members don't come to Ephesus to, like buy our stuff.

Kyle Groters  44:15

Yeah, and this isn't the first time that we've seen some economic outrage when Paul was on the move we saw earlier next with the saving of the the frustrated and annoyed response and saving the servant girl that the fortune telling girls and telling the girl and there was a similar response in a different situation. But money is a powerful motivator.

Gregg DeMey  44:40

Yeah, so just very broadly, like, if you have a relationship with God, it touches every part of your life, like including your pocketbook, your livelihood. I mean, so people who are not Christians think that you know, folks who orient their lives around like tithing and giving back are insane. Yeah, like Americans are super generous worldwide, but like Christians who tithe like that's, I think the average American gives like 1.2% of their income away. Like, which, again is amazing, right? But the idea that you would give the first 10th of everything that like comes from the work of your hands, or because of the gifts that God's given you, like back into the kingdom of God like that as a crazy thought to everybody, right? Yeah. That's true. I think it might have been Martin Luther is that first there's the conversion of the heart. And then there's the conversion of the pocketbook. And having been in the church planting world, I can guarantee just when people just because people come to Jesus does not guarantee that immediate, they're like, Oh, awesome, how can I know? Give 10%

Laura Horner  45:51

Well, didn't Jesus talk to? Didn't Jesus talk to somebody what was I forget what they named him. But Jesus was talking to the rich young man, I think he was the rich young ruler, and he said, you know, basically sell everything and then come follow me. And he wept because he knew he couldn't do it, like this rich young ruler just knew he could not get rid of everything to come.

Gregg DeMey  46:15

Right? I'll volunteer, I'll give my time. Just don't make me give up my Bitcoin.

Kyle Groters  46:24

Yeah, there it is. Yes.

Gregg DeMey  46:30

Again, I'm just curious how your read and how are our young people experienced this? dynamic?

Laura Horner  46:39

I think that I see this, I don't know about you how but I think I see this most when it's talked about time, right? Now, obviously, students don't have a wealth of money. But time is something that's very precious to them. And so when you engage them and talk about like, Hey, you know, have you read anything in the world lately? Are you doing devotions? What's going on? One of the biggest things we hear is, Oh, I didn't have time, or or they say, I really want to, but I don't know if I have the time. And so it's that figuring out like, Okay, well, if this is something that's going to be the most important to you as your relationship, then you need to put time into it, just like we need to put time into other relationships, if your relationship with God is the most important relationship, you need to invest the bigger amount of time in it. Yeah, that's a good point, they don't have a lot of money, they don't have a lot of money, they do

Kyle Groters  47:34

have the same amount of time. Yeah, but they are, I would say, there's, and this isn't necessarily bad by any means. But there's a deep installment, I think, in our specific subculture, even of the normalized path of life progression, we'll call it that, right? You finish high school, you either go into college, or increasingly, so you go into a trade or you start working, whatever it may be. But you do have a pretty clear goal of career progression, right. And that's going to look different for every person. But hopefully, you'll be able to save well perhaps invest a little bit to get to the point in your life where you'll be able to retire. Like I mean, this is a still fairly expected or hoped for outcome. Again, this is not a bad thing, by any means. But there is underlying that the potential of as a core part of what my life needs to be, is the making of money. And while there's a practical reality of I need to be able to make money to live in this culture, and in this environment, this is fair, that can also become what do you want to do? What do you want to do when you graduate? What's next? Well, I want to figure out what's gonna make me the most money, regular thing we hear, right? Kind of in chess, but also low key, kind of like, No, actually, that's, that's what I got to do next. Right. Yeah. So this does play into the development and the lives of our young people. And I think we also we, we will send this message unintentionally, quite a bit. So

Gregg DeMey  49:08

yeah. Somebody want to push back a tiny bit. Because like, for sure, like our young people, like, are not flush with you know, 1000s and 1000s of 10s of 1000s of dollars of cash, right? But the principle I mean, that Jesus puts down so beautifully is like, hey, if if you can be trusted with a little you can be trusted with a lot. Absolutely. And whatever you do have and I mean, we're in a community that like, we're the whole range of the gamut in terms of like, personal and family resources. Right and what what matters is not like the amount and I'm not trying to drive for like, hour we need to like bring 10% of our of our total our teenagers. But the idea like that I'm living my life even as a 14 And God, what had God has given me? I want to give back. What like what's first and best are like things are going on beyond myself. Like, there is never too soon a day to start practicing that idea. Yeah. And probably the most precious dollars recorders that come in here are are not the huge checks are the huge digital transfers that come in. It's like people that don't have much that still are living their life, you know, according to that, so

Kyle Groters  50:31

yeah. And I mean, by way of illustration, with our children's worship that we do, and we have a, we support a child, her name is Harriet, right? And so we every large group that we have chosen worship, we take an offering for her either before or after our little section, right? And, you know, it's just by way of illustrating that exact principle. And it's, there's something beautiful, watching the little ones, and putting forth a quarter 50 cents $1 whatever it may be.

Gregg DeMey  51:01

Yep. Yeah. Yeah. So it's, I think it's, it can be easy to defer, like, oh, I'll give later when I have something. And same thing with time, like, Oh, all right. I'll volunteer later in life when I'm done working so hard. And I mean, what happens observationally is like, if you live your whole life, according to, you know, a certain pattern, like just because you have a change of life circumstances, like that pattern is established at that point. And again, now that we can't change, not that we can't be moved, but it's a deep

Kyle Groters  51:33

groove. Yeah, definitely.

Laura Horner  51:36

Yeah. Yeah. I think that's one thing, too, that we can be encouraging our students. I mean, they obviously is social, cause social, you know, they're very aware of different organizations to give to, I think that they crave that I think this is a generation that craves that they want to make a difference in the world. So how do we shape that into an eternal difference?

Gregg DeMey  52:02

Yeah. Totally different. Note with this, I love that Paul wants to get out there to calm everybody down. And people are like, this dude,

Kyle Groters  52:13

hold me back scenario,

Gregg DeMey  52:14

you're going to blow this whole thing up, if you go out there, like they're gonna murder you. And

Kyle Groters  52:20

what I find so interesting about the way that this thing plays out, right? With our middle school students, right now we're talking about authority, and the importance of authority, even when we don't always like it. And then with in children's worship, we're in a series on wisdom and living wise lives and how to find wisdom and be wise, right. And the person that ends up settling things down here is a presumably pagan, the city clerk, right, and a man who exhibits immense wisdom and authority, even though he has no skin in the game for the cause of Christ. He minimally, demonstrates that this is he's a wise leader, he understands whatever we're doing here, this doesn't make any sense for a variety of legal and practical reasons. We got to cut this out. I think it is striking even to see the movement of the Holy Spirit in ways like this when we don't necessarily expect it right. They don't let Paul go up there. Alexander's gonna go try and make a defense, that doesn't work. And it ends up being from within the mob itself, right from within the people. This leader comes out and says, Okay, everybody, we we got to figure this out. This is not how we can do things here. Yeah, in the midst of our current cultural milieu, with many authorities, that are not necessarily speaking for or with intent to, you know, increase the gospel, the mission of the gospel. I think this is a good reminder, potentially of there is wisdom out there that exists in ways that we don't necessarily expect it. This can be a helpful thing to listen to, and a helpful thing to create meaningful peace in situations.

Gregg DeMey  54:03

That's a great point, dude. Yes, city clerk can maybe sound like a backroom accountant. But that position named like this dude is like the CEO of the city, like kind of the mayor of the city. That I mean amazing to me that they're yelling for two hours straight. Yeah. I know. American fans are not like we think we're excited about you know, stuff in sports, but like if you've ever gone to like, I know Latin American soccer game or European soccer, we're literally there's like clubs that have songs and people will sing for an hour after a big victory, like right outside, like Americans don't do that. But Ephesians do. So they're going out for two hours. And yeah, so just the common grace, that the way like law and order and pieces made and so like the decks get cleared, so that Yeah, like like God, God, God has everybody ultimately. Yeah. Like in, like being used in the plan. And pretty cool that Paul thinks he's the guy here and gets like multiple counsel like, nope, you're not the guy right now.

Laura Horner  55:15

Discuss it down.

Kyle Groters  55:16

Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I mean, I said that the city clerk didn't have any skin in the game necessarily on that for the cause of Christ, but verses ago, 4 million bucks of significant texts and items from his city were burned at you know, not necessarily direct command but certainly by virtue of what Paul was doing there, right. So as the CEO, he has some funding. I mean, he is right, he has some financial bind that what's happening Ephesus. So it would not have been surprising for him to comment and said, You know what, let's grab those guys. And let's just take them out. Let's just, you know, stone them, beat them kill them, because they've caused some problems for me. They're bad for business, right? I mean, that's what I would expect of someone in his position, but he does quite the opposite. Right.

Gregg DeMey  56:08

All right, final cheer for the Holy Spirit, who indeed is always moving stuff. Sometimes we have a little inkling What's going on? I think, the vast majority of the time we have no idea. Yeah, right. wonderfully. Yeah.

Kyle Groters  56:22

And we get the opportunity to be swept up in that movement. Gotta keep our eyes and ears open to do so.

Gregg DeMey  56:28

Well, speaking of common grace again, I'm thankful for Kyle Olson and Billy Heschel. Hopefully the communication is clear today on the new podcasting equipment, I'm going to hit this awesome button and we're going to exit with some music so huge thanks Kyle Groters, Laura Horner, leading the charge with our young people as we do the most important thing. Keep passing on the baton of fate. Alright, peace, everybody