Master Your Healthcare Career
Master Your Healthcare Career
From Fellowships to Healthcare Leaders with Dr. Christine Winn and Divya Patel
In this episode Dr. Anthony Stanowski is joined by Dr. Christine Winn, Senior Vice President and Chief Regional Officer at Cooper University Healthcare; and Divya Patel, Administrative Fellow at Cooper University Healthcare, who is also an MHA graduate from Rutgers University.
Dr. Winn and Divya emphasize the importance of administrative fellowships in contributing important skills and experiences to accelerate long term career success.
The episode offers valuable tips for how to prepare for the fellowship interview, and how to learn more about fellowships through the National Administrative Fellowship Network, National Center for Healthcare Leaders, the American College of Healthcare Executives, and ... from CAHME.
Okay, thank you very much for that introduction, melissa, and welcome today to two really special guests Chris Wynn, who I've known a long time through a couple different job stops on your part, and Divya Patel, who is currently a fellow at Hooper University Medical Center. I think let's begin, chris. Let me start with you, and you've had a really kind of interesting career path, but what I want to do is go back to when you received your MHA from the University of South Carolina. You, like me and like many other people, you had to do an administrative fellowship. What do you remember from that period?
Speaker 2:Wow. So you're asking me to go way back. We're both vintage. But yeah, I remember a lot from that time frame because the program at South Carolina had us do a nine month residency during the program and that set me off on a great path and gave me great experience at an old Richland Memorial Hospital in Columbia, south Carolina, which now is part of a giant system.
Speaker 2:But back then I had access to the administrative staff.
Speaker 2:They took me in, they allowed me to go to all kinds of meetings. They sent me off on work, walking with the nursing supervisor, visiting with all the department directors, and back then my master's thesis was on DRG 209 and how to reduce length of stay in hip replacement patients, and back then it was kind of a two-week length of stay and what are some ways that you could get it down and now of course it's outpatient. So it makes me feel incredibly old but also thoughtful about how you look at projects that you give to fellows, because I think about that project and I think about how it trained my thought pattern from the administrative standpoint to look at clinical operations and think through those with clinicians and it really gave me great exposure to clinicians and how to ask questions without being judgmental, and how to think about process instead of thinking about just outcomes. So I think that fellowship really did set me off on a great path and hopefully have been able to make University of South Carolina proud over the years.
Speaker 1:It's true. And Chris, just you know again, that was where you began your fellowship. What's your role right now? What are you doing now?
Speaker 2:Yeah. So a very exciting role change for me that Cooper University Health Care has just acquired Cape Regional Medical Center, which is a small community jewel down in Cape May County, new Jersey. Role at this point is as Chief Regional Officer. I'm responsible for the development of the shore region for Cooper University Healthcare and have just taken on that role over the last several months and so excited to do that on behalf of the health system. Also responsible for our MD Anderson at Cooper, partnership with MD Anderson Houston. So delighted that I have those opportunities with the health system.
Speaker 1:Wow, chris, it's every time I talk to you at Cooper. Your responsibilities change all the time, and congratulations on the new role. The time, and congratulations on the new role. And I think it's really exciting what Cooper can do to kind of bring those resources to Cape Regional. That's really cool. And I know when we kind of scheduled this call initially, it was just you and I talking and you said, hey, anthony, you've got to bring in Divya Patel, because there's this wonderful fellow that we're working with right now and what we want to do is kind of talk about what Cooper is bringing and Divya's participation around in that process. So, divya, let me first introduce yourself and then how did you get acquainted to Cooper University?
Speaker 3:Yeah, so my name is Divya Patel. I did my MHA at Rutgers University in New Brunswick and I got introduced to the Cooper Fellowship actually through a couple of my professors who know the system very well, and they spoke very, very highly of Cooper and the great work that they were doing with the communities that they serve. So they said this would be a great opportunity for you. Apply and see where it goes.
Speaker 1:Wow, and you applied and did you interview with Chris.
Speaker 3:I did yes.
Speaker 1:And obviously it went well.
Speaker 2:It did, it was fantastic.
Speaker 1:That's good, and so how long have you been in your fellowship at this point?
Speaker 3:Four months.
Speaker 1:Wow, wow, those first four months just really kind of blow by at this point. And what have been your primary things that you've worked on in the first third of your fellowship?
Speaker 3:I've worked on a variety of things, from evaluations to looking at Excel sheets and thinking about strategy and how we can further grow certain departments or how we can further grow certain legs that we're kind of utilizing. So it's honestly been a really, really, really good experience so far, which excites me for the rest of my fellowship.
Speaker 1:Wow, that's great. And, Chris, how do you kind of plan where you want the fellows to kind of work in this? How do you kind of select the projects that are most interesting to them?
Speaker 2:Yeah, great question. So I co-lead the fellowship with my colleague, kevin O'Leary, who is the Senior Vice President for Business Development and Strategy. So the two of us together cover a lot of the areas of sort of innovation and development throughout the health system. So our interest in the fellow is really laying out sort of the strategic plan for Cooper, laying out all of the executives. So our, our plan for the fellow is the first month or so we have them meet with the entire executive team, including our co-CEOs. We also then have them look at some key senior leadership, so key vice presidents that they could get to know.
Speaker 2:And then it kind of comes organically and I think Divya will attest to that that you know it might be a slow start in terms of projects, but then once things really get going in terms of the fellow becoming known within the organization and us then understanding the capability and interest levels, we match those things together really well.
Speaker 2:And we did that intentionally because both Kevin was a fellow and I was a fellow and both of us had a very unstructured fellowship that allowed for a lot of exploration and from our standpoint there's many different ways to do fellowships but from our standpoint, having that fellowship experience be open so that the fellow can really dictate do they want to learn more about inpatient, do they want to learn more about outpatient, do they want strategy, do they want operations? And giving the fellow a lot of autonomy and latitude to develop their own style has, I think, been OK so far. Divya can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that that's given our fellows a lot of exploration time so that they can see where their talents and skills and interests match an organization.
Speaker 1:You know it's a really interesting part. And I go back to my own fellowship experience, which is, you know, you get in the first couple months you don't know anyone and you feel a little overwhelmed because everyone just seems so much smarter than you at that point. And where do you go? But it's that connections you make, and then you know you start to kind of go well, do I do want to go into operations? Do I really want to kind of go into some of the management services like marketing or information technology? And so, divya, you've been there a couple months now. Where are you leaning? Operations, staff support, couple months now.
Speaker 3:Where are you leaning operations. I think Chris, chris knows this. But I came into the fellowship not knowing exactly where I wanted to go. I I look, I looked at Chris and Kevin. I'm just like, listen, I'm not sure where I want to go, I don't know where my interest lies, but I have like a general idea and they really did support me in that matter and they really allowed me to explore what I wanted to explore. And through all of my explorations I genuinely see an interest in process improvement, because that's been sort of a little bit of my background, since I do have a black belt but also operations. So I do see an interest involved and that's something that I've kind of been crafting and going towards.
Speaker 1:Oh good, and you mentioned the black belt and I know you know most people on this call will know what it is, but a couple of people are going to go well, wait a minute. Black belt versus you know what you're involved in Lean Six Sigma and talk a little bit about what you had to do to get a black belt.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so it was actually through Rutgers University MHA program. They did a great job in offering these types of classes and it's an elective it's not mandatory the black belt courses but I loved my green belt course so much that I wanted to go ahead and go ahead and get my black belt. The professor was so nice and the way the course was set up is he teaches you in depth on what the green belt course teaches, which is he teaches you in depth on what the Greenbelt course teaches, which is all the methodologies and all of the different techniques that you use. But then also he asks you as a student to seek out your project, which was something that we were kind of confused on, but we were able my team when I worked through my project we were able to secure a really good project. That good project that was overseas, actually in India, so we were able to work on that, while you know, getting our black belt, which was actually really amazing.
Speaker 1:Wow. Well, so that was funny because when I was looking through your background I did see that you did something around Lean Six Sigma in India and I'm going well. How did that happen? But that was the connection in with Rutgers and I wanted for our listeners out there. Rutgers is a CAMI accredited program. They've been accredited now for, I think, probably about five or six years at this point and just an exceptional program that I'm really really proud as kind of joined and gone through this process with CAMI and Divya. You're also involved. You've got your fingers in another, different world as well too. The National Administrative Fellowship Network To me, what was exciting when I kind of read about this is the importance of developing that network for yourself, not just at Cooper, but you know, in a broader sense. So tell me what led to you participating in this. Tell me a little bit about the National Administrative Fellowship Network, how it began and where it's kind of moving from here.
Speaker 3:Yeah. So for the first four months of this fellowship, I joined the administration. I joined that national network to kind of get in better touch with other co-fellows that are all across the nation. So, because we want to be able to have a safe space where we can speak to each other, and that's genuinely what this organization was founded on was a safe space where we can collaborate with each other, where we can speak to each other, where we can learn off of each other. And I got involved as the president of that organization. I stepped down fully. However, that organization has taught me so much on the importance of networking, the importance of growing your foundations and really understanding what it is you want to do and how you want to structure your fellowship post.
Speaker 1:That, I think to me. What's fascinating about it because I know you, know you're in there, but I've known a couple other people who are involved in it is it's a group of people that are. When you talk about growing your network, it's not all about handing your business card to someone and go how can you help me get faster? It's ahead. Your approach and the whole thing around the National Administrative Fellowship Network is helping other people succeed, and when you help other people succeed, that's really the best way to build your network.
Speaker 3:No, yeah, definitely. I 100 percent agree and even though I stepped down, I will say this that has led me to an abundance of opportunities, not only within ACHE and Jay as a part of the membership committee, but then also getting in touch with my program, the MHA program, and getting a part to be in there, while getting to be a co-chair in their innovations and entrepreneurship committee, which is something really special and I'm really excited about.
Speaker 1:Oh cool. Well, that is really neat. If anyone wants to learn more about the National Administrative Fellowship Network, I know there's a LinkedIn group about it, but is there any place that people should go to?
Speaker 3:They also just launched their social media. So they're also on social media. They're on LinkedIn, they're on Instagram. It's a great network and they have podcasts that they're always attending the fellows are. They have great. They have podcasts that they're that they're always attending the fellows are. They have great types of articles that they're releasing. So it's a really, really good network.
Speaker 1:Good, well, there was a project that you did I want.
Speaker 1:I want to want you to talk a little bit about and you know, as I was reading through your background and your profile, I saw that you had restaurant worker and then after that, the important part of that was restaurant worker campaign and I was like, well, let me, let me kind of read a little bit more about that. But it was a fascinating. Look in New Jersey about the impact of the pandemic and tell me a little bit about that research that you did there and what happened.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so that research was actually something that came spontaneously. I wasn't expecting it to come in my direction at all, but it was basically about how the pandemic had affected different types of restaurant workers, because when the pandemic hit, you saw a loss in customers coming in which affected a lot of these restaurant workers. It affected their hours, it affected their pay and maybe even management. So I was really able to work with this non-for-profit and really advocating for those restaurant workers, kind of being on the customer service side of things, so getting to speak to them one-on-one, getting to understand their path and getting to understand where they're coming from, what areas were affected for them and how, as an organization, we can help to further help them even further, whether it's talking to their managers or even bringing about new policies that can help change their lives for the better.
Speaker 1:Wow, what a great way to kind of spend some time and understand the impact of. Wow, what a great way to kind of spend some time and understand, you know, the impact of the pandemic on a group of folks and, yeah, they were really, really hit hard during that process. What was interesting to me again, as you kind of look through it and I'm going to bring this up and I hope I don't embarrass you a little bit, but you were a cashier at the Rainbow Food Mart and as I saw that, I thought you know what, when I was beginning my career, I actually was a security guard at Veterans Stadium in JFK Park, which neither of those stadiums exist anymore in Philadelphia, but it provided a good, different, interesting set of experiences to me. So you had the same thing at the Rainbow Food Mart.
Speaker 3:No, I definitely did. I will. I'll never be embarrassed of it because, even though it was my first job, it taught me the value of connecting with people. It taught me the value of customer interaction and now, on the flip side, when I'm in healthcare, it teaches me the importance of of bedside manner and the importance of you know having that emotional connection or even just that friendly interaction with patients as you're walking through the halls or you're rounding or anything in that manner.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, absolutely, and I felt the same way too. It was a very interesting part of my life and career that some of those lessons kind of stick with you and especially, like you said, how do you interact with the public, which is a fascinating way to do it. Let's go back to the fellowship part. So the National Administrative Fellowship has something called a fellowship playbook. Tell our listeners about what that is our listeners about what that is.
Speaker 3:So the fellowship playbook it's basically like a booklet that the fellowship network was able to create, which better outlines how to go about the application process, how to navigate interviews, how to navigate writing your personal statements, perfecting your resumes, when is the appropriate time to start that application process? Is it too early, Is it too late? So it's really like a comprehensive booklet. Almost. That kind of entails all of those factors really, and even so, more than a booklet, it's actually a Zoom session. So we do a series of events that are every summer when fellowship season is at their peak. So typically, you know, when applications are saying, hey, like we're doing fellowships, the podcasts and everything start to kick off. And we do, like you know, Zoom sessions. We do team sessions with students that are interested in this, answer any and all questions that they might have. So we really try to make ourselves available for all of that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, but what an incredibly great way to kind of get back and get forward to the next generation. Chris, I'm going to turn to you here because you've interviewed a lot of fellows you know, not just here at Cooper but in the other kind of jobs that you've, roles that you've had in different hospitals and health systems. What have you seen have been the most successful ways for fellows to be prepared when they're coming in for an interview?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think having a good understanding of what a fellowship is and what they are looking for to get out of the fellowship. I think that it's hard when a fellow is interviewing and they're just looking for a position, because a fellowship is really for a special kind of person that's trying to sort of sort through what they want to do in healthcare. And if that isn't the goal, and the goal is just to get a position and get your foot in the door you may not be prepared to do a variety of projects and to get out and meet people and as Divya has done so successfully and as Divya has done so successfully be able to kind of take small projects and big projects. And so I think the fellows that do best are the ones that are sort of excited about that potpourri of opportunity versus just getting their foot in the door in a hospital.
Speaker 1:It is so true and I think you know when I've talked to students about it, one of the questions that I get is geez, you know, I graduated with my degree, I can go right out and earn X. Why should I take a lower salary in doing a fellowship? And my comments are what you'll learn in that one year the experiences you have you'll never get ever again for a long time. I still remember when I was in my fellowship or residency at the old graduate hospital, sitting in the boardroom and hearing the discussions going on and how that got me to think a lot differently about healthcare. And it took me a long time to get back in the boardroom from there. Divya, it won't take you as long as it took me, but those lessons kind of sunk in and I figured out where to go.
Speaker 2:Yeah, they stay with you. I think the opportunities to have access to the C-suite are not as plentiful when you're a junior administrator somewhere within a health system as when you're a fellow and you get to pick the brain like Divya can walk down the hall and have access to any of the SVPs of Cooper University of Healthcare, which is not really typical when you're just coming out and getting into a position. So I do think that that's a great point, anthony, for fellows or for MHA students to consider a fellowship.
Speaker 1:Oh, it's true. And the thing is is you're doing everything from the lower end of the scale up until the very high end. You'll find yourself. You know, I remember in my fellowship being in a you know getting ready for a meeting once. You know, getting ready for a meeting once, and I'm there with my, the person who was my preceptor, and the physician who was the director of the emergency room, and we're there and my preceptor turns to the doctor and says, dr Laus, would you like a cup of coffee? And he says yes, and she goes Anthony, would you get Dr Laus a cup of coffee? So it was everything from getting a cup of coffee to being at the boardroom and doing a presentation. And you know you look at that as how do I, how do I really kind of understand what's going on in that process? That really kind of sets it apart.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and Anthony, wouldn't you say that it also shapes you a little bit in terms of whether you now would ask somebody to get coffee? I think some of those lessons about how you treat people no matter what role they have in a health system. I think you do learn as a young professional, whether that's you're a fellow or it's your first position I think you learn how maybe it was how you were treated and how maybe you don't want to treat other people from that experience.
Speaker 1:Well, I think that. And then, you know, I also kind of say in there, one of the things that I picked up from that was also to kind of be prepared for the wants of other people and what, what. I think what I think my preceptor was doing at that time was stay attuned. So when she asked him that question I should have said, Dr Lax, can I get you a cup of coffee? And I think that would have that. To me that was the more important part of it. And you know, I think that's again the lessons you learn and laws of civility and stuff that you go through Absolutely. And you know, you see that in your team right now and I've seen it with the CAMI team, where we're in a group, and I'll see the team volunteer and get coffee for people without being asked, and it's really an important part of it.
Speaker 3:Divya where do you want to go from here?
Speaker 1:I know you said you're exploring a couple different things within Cooper, but a couple years out from now, where do you see yourself being?
Speaker 3:Well, that's funny. You ask that because actually when I was meeting with a lot of the C-suite, they all asked me the same thing. So it was really it's like a full circle moment, because back then back I shouldn't even say back then, but like four months ago if you had asked me this I would have told you I genuinely don't know where I see myself in five to 10 years, but it was actually what our chief ambulatory officer now told me. What our chief ambulatory officer now told me. She said if you were offered a position no questions asked, any amount of salary, you name it what would that be? But what do you would like?
Speaker 3:Genuinely asking, without any ties, nothing on plain paper, what would you write down? So I told her that it would be operations. I genuinely want to see myself in maybe five to 10 years either at a VP of operations and then slowly work my way up to chief of operations, because I've genuinely loved working with the chief of operations here and I've loved working with Chris because she was once the ambulatory operations chief. So working with both and being able to kind of have exposure again to a lot of the C-suite here, I've grown to love that kind of department and operations as a whole.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I can't think of a better operator than Chris, and I used to work for a company called Aramark and what Aramark said is, if you're called an operator, that's the highest praise you can have from Aramark and I think it really kind of shows you can motivate people and you can get the job done. So good choice, Let me. Let me go to another question, Chris. I mean a lot of times when you talk to fellows or students who are going for their fellowships or their residencies, they aim for the big names, and the big names are that the Cleveland Clinic, Mayo Advocate, you know Henry Ford, they're kind of out there. You know, in the Philadelphia region it might be the University of Pennsylvania and the like. And then you've come to organizations like Cooper, which is in its own right an amazing institution in Camden serving a population in need but also kind of breaking out of it with the MD Anderson and the expansion into Cape May, with Cape Regional Advice to students in choosing a place of residency, if I can ask you to talk about that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's a great, great point. I think one of the things that I'll say about Cooper, our mission is to serve, heal and educate, and so I think we live that mission daily. So I think we live that mission daily. We're a two point two billion dollar organization. If you're looking in cities, I think viable choices on are on both sides of the river in Philadelphia in terms of you know you may not want to look at Rutgers and New Brunswick, but that's a wonderful organization as well.
Speaker 2:So I think, for students evaluating different places, getting to know what the you know, as Divya did, what the mission is of the organization, how that mission aligns with your own personal values, looking at the kinds of projects that the fellow has worked on in the past, I'll you know, I'll never forget that back in the days when I was a fellow, you know, I would talk with colleagues and they would be like in an office somewhere you know, looking at a spreadsheet or filing stuff and not doing something that's meaningful work. I think a fellow to be would want to look at those project lists and kind of see what would I be involved in, how would they use me, because certainly you may want to just do things that are in an office and that's fine. But if you want some exposure to departments, physicians, operations, analyses, meetings, then look for those kinds of experiences and then match your you know lists up to where you think, just like with college, where you think you might be able to get in a couple of stretch places, and then you know some places where you think you would have an opportunity. But I do think that there are a host of organizations in the Philadelphia area like Mainline has some great opportunities for their fellow you know. Certainly we we did that one together, anthony, back in the day at Paoli and I do think there's lots of opportunities like that that might get masked by some of the larger institutions. But at a, at a, you know, a medium-sized institution, you may have greater access to more projects, more C-suite exposure than you would at a big organization. So there's trade-offs for sure. But I think those two things the mission of the organization matching with your personal mission, and then the project lists are some things that could transcend.
Speaker 1:I couldn't agree with you more. I think we ran in. What Chris was referring to when we talked about the Paley part is when I was at Aramark we had an administrative fellowship program. When I was at Aramark we had an administrative fellowship program and we took students from around the country, from CAMI accredited programs, and we placed them at our partner institutions.
Speaker 1:And I remember we had an incredible opportunity up at Susquehanna Health System, which is in northeastern Pennsylvania and where they were opening up a brand new hospital and they needed a fellow to kind of help them along with the process and so many people kind of turned it down because it wasn't the brand that they were looking for and it was like geez, you know, to be able to be part on the ground floor to open up a brand new hospital is an incredible experience in there and we did eventually get a great fellow there and they had a wonderful experience. But that part is in there. So, divya, let me kind of, you know, ask you in this area you probably interviewed at a couple of different places for fellowship what made you choose Cooper?
Speaker 3:The mission and the way they're able to serve the population that they serve. Because if it's something that I've learned alongside when I was working as a CNA to volunteering at hospitals or throughout my MHA it's I love giving back to people. I love giving back to the underserved minority groups. I love giving back to people. I love giving back to the underserved minority groups. I love giving back to people in general, and the way Cooper has been able to do that through their mission, their vision and their initiatives that they're able to do was something that I really saw myself working towards as well. So, like Chris said, if you're looking at fellowships, it doesn't matter the name of the organization, but more so along the lines of what they're doing, how they're doing it, how it all ties back to the mission and vision. But then also, what kind of things can they offer you, what kind of projects can they offer you? Because it can make a world of a difference.
Speaker 1:Absolutely Well, good advice and good choice, and I got to say, probably no one better to be a mentor for you or a preceptor than Chris Wayne just one of my favorite people over the time. So well, with that, I want to talk about two resources available that Cami provides to people. One of them is, if you go onto Cami's website, wwwcahmeorg, in our white papers area, we did a great white paper two years ago back in 2022, with NCHL about administrative fellowships, and I would encourage anyone to kind of go into there, take a look at that white paper.
Speaker 1:There's some great analysis in there and some great approaches to kind of look for and you can get a sense about. You know what makes a fellow successful. We kind of look at some NCHL data in there and we also look at things like salary and and then job opportunities that kind of go forward from there. So that's one the second part. On the CAMI website, if you go to wwwcamiorg and look at the advanced search tool you can look at different programs that we have and within that you can see where the fellows, what the fellow salaries are by the different programs. So it kind of gives you a sense about what the median salaries are for people doing fellowships. And it also if you're picking a program to do as an MHA program or an MBA in healthcare or anything in healthcare management, it'll kind of give you a sense about geez, you know certain programs like South Carolina and Rutgers and where I came from, widener, really kind of encouraged a fellowship, but others not so much. So you know a good, good place for people to kind of go and look through.
Speaker 1:Well, with that I just really want to thank you both for your time today. This was a fun conversation for me to do Divya your time today. This was a fun conversation for me to do. Divya, it's great to meet you and so much success to you. I think you've got a good foundation of a start everything from the Rainbow Food Mart up to Cooper University and then beyond. You know. Much success and please stay in touch. I'd love to hear where things kind of go with you and Chris, I know you and I will always be in touch, so absolutely Thank you for participating with us today.
Speaker 3:Thank you. Thank you so much.