Late-Night Interview: Natalie Jarvis: Business Management in Diversity and Volunteering in the UK, Disability Pride, PhD and motherhood and more...

Students and Graduates!

Natalie Jarvis is a PhD candidate from Swansea University, researching the UK workforce within the volunteering and disability sectors.

Thank you all for tuning in, it has been a pleasure!

To know more about her research, check out her LinkedIn page: https://www.linkedin.com/in/natalie-louise-jarvis-/

I was a guest at The Butterfly Princess Show, hosted by Steph Marie: https://youtu.be/uNapY4rkmDQ?si=yxdqOfGGPceI-ven

Business collabs and become a guest: luisphdlounge@gmail.com

Website: https://www.phdlounge.co.uk

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Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

We refer to them as a homogenous group, so they're just disabled people or they're just disabled volunteers, and this is why I wanted to do the research really to show each person is very individualistic. Their disabilities are usually quite complex, there's usually more than one health condition and it's just. We just need to be a little bit kinder to help them get into the workforce.

Speaker 2: 0:42

Hello students and graduates. Hello students and graduates, welcome to PhD Lounge, the podcast of late night interviews in which PhDs have a drink and talk about their research topics. Guess what? We have another late night talk, and today is the third anniversary of PhD Lounge.

Speaker 2: 1:00

Since its official launch on the 29th of June in 2021, I have been thrilled to juggle the arduous tasks of working part-time at Nando's until today, writing my PhD full-time and dedicating some hours to create and record content about PhD lifestyle and experiences. Although it is still a hobby, I am really optimistic about the future of PhD Launch still a hobby. I am really optimistic about the future of PhD Lounge, intending to continue producing more sessions and late night talks with many PhD students and hoping that this will help us to get outreach, visibility and, who knows, maybe even monetization through sponsors. It would be incredible if we were referenced by other podcasters across the world, and I'm really excited to see what happens when I submit my PhD and prepare myself for the WIVER WOC-Aid.

Speaker 2: 1:53

I'm thrilled to announce that Natalie Jarvis, whom I've already referenced in previous sessions, has been a tremendous help in organizing the website and sharing some amazing ideas for the future of the podcast. I want to thank her for being not just my PhD colleague and organizer of the podcast's website, but also my friend. Thank you, natalie Jarvis. I've recently joined matchmakerfm, where one of the employees reached me out to me through my LinkedIn profile to schedule a Zoom call. It was a great conversation. They explained me the platform for finding potential guests for the PhD lounge, specifically recent PhD graduates to be featured on the show. In reality, he and I agreed that the PhD lounge is a specific niche which is quite hard to find guests, whether they are still undertaking the degree or have graduated, but it's so worth it.

Speaker 2: 2:52

Monetizing the podcast takes time, patience and more hours dedicated to it. Regarding publishing more content regularly, while agreeing with his POV, it is possible to find PhDs who would like to share their research and experience in undertaking this huge degree to a larger extent. And why is that, you may ask. Many of those students, candidates or graduates are active online, publishing their own content through social media. There are so many of them who would love to have a late-night chat with me. Probably I'm not sure Some of them have already engaged with me within the PhD lounge and we had a great chat, and I asked lots of questions about how I could join matchmakerfn with a personal account. In the future, I might even join their agency membership to get more visibility, downloads or even sponsorship opportunities. Last but not least, I also have other news to share with you.

Speaker 2: 3:57

I was a guest at the show called the Butterfly Princess Show, hosted by the amazing Steph Marie. Steph is a beautiful young lady with cerebral palsy from Manchester who invites people from different cultural backgrounds and lifestyles to her show in a relaxed and friendly environment. It was a truly wonderful experience for myself. My talk with her back on the 20th of June was really interesting and productive. It was the first time that someone invited me to join her own talk show, which was a great experience. Who knows, maybe we'll work together again in the future. However, the main focus of her show was to hear about my experience as a full-time PhD student and the challenges of doing research while working part-time, managing PhD lounge and working as a teacher intern across various schools. She was particularly interested to hear about how my vision of traveling changed, from going to different countries for tourism sightseeing to staying in a country for some time and adapting to its language and culture. I'm really excited to share that my talk with Steph and will probably be released on her YouTube channel. I've included the link in the description of this PhD Logs session, so if you're interested in having a peek at it, just click in the link below.

Speaker 2: 5:28

Now let's introduce our guest for this Late Night Talk. She is a PhD candidate from Swansea University researching the experiences of volunteers with disabilities and the definition of volunteering within the workforce and businesses in the UK. This Late Night Conversation was conducted in late May and, whilst you are tuning in, I am currently at Oxford University to find some literary sources and archaeological evidence to resume my dissertation, which I will submit next year. So please have a drink, grab your seats and let's warmly welcome Natalie Jarvis. So all right.

Speaker 2: 6:42

So welcome to the PhD Launch Podcast, natalie. And let me tell you straight away that we've been trying to schedule for a long time and I think it was just for the beginning of this year that we're trying to set up a talk talking about your PhD sharing, about your research topic, doing what you have been doing at a personal and also a professional level and how can you cope with it. And finally we are able to have at the end of May, when the exams are still going on, or maybe at the end of them, and happy days. Well, finally we've made it. Tell me what your feelings right now. I'm having, or being featured right now on the phd launch podcast very similar.

Speaker 1: 7:38

um had the aims of maybe doing this at the beginning of the year but with PhD work commitments it's kind of taken a bit of a backseat. But really pleased and honored to be here and excited to get involved in the podcast.

Speaker 2: 7:54

So you are obviously you organized the website, which is amazingly.

Speaker 2: 7:59

The experience has been so great and we've basically met through email, thanks to felicity mckee, who was, or was, my first guest at the podcast, and the conversation went on building our own history both, both of us building building our history in this sense and we were talking like plenty of times to do, doing this, doing that, how to arrange and also setting up some things for the future, which is, I see it, as brighter as always, obviously with both feet on the floor.

Speaker 2: 8:34

And we've been talking also as well how you can cope with being a mother and studying full time at the same time and studying full time at the same time. I don't know, my mom could also, could or probably would be very likely to do it, but just for more personal realization. But you, you try to do something that is Way above and beyond, as many of the what do employers say In a business context? Saying go above and beyond, go above and beyond. But it seems like, throughout the conversations that we have for periods of time, does it happen at another level? Do you feel that there is another level in you when juggling your motherhood and the PhD at the same time?

Speaker 1: 9:29

It's kind of contrasting. So being a mother is my favourite job. It's the best job, but of course it's really tiring. But at the same time, having my daughter Lexi, my little girl. She's autistic. I'm not sure if she'll ever be independent. So I think a lot of my push and motivation for work and my work ethic comes from the need to provide for her. So I think it pushes me a little bit further. I'm diagnosed with ADHD. That probably allows me to juggle a lot of things. I've got the PhD, I am a mother, I work part-time, but I'm also a trustee secretary and a director, and so there's about four roles going on. I think. On the surface I make it look easy. I do a lot of juggling, but people don't tend to see the times when I'm burnt out. Um, when I hide away, because I tend to hide away at those times people don't see it. Um, but yeah, there's definitely times where I'm overworked, over burnt and tired.

Speaker 2: 10:37

Um, I could do with a holiday I get the, I show some empathy and I also try to understand, and also from my mother's side, who says I'm tired, entirely in the sense of being overwhelmed. I was having that conversation with her a couple weeks ago about saying why tired, why being so tired? It might be something that she's not taking the proper vitamins, maybe some diagnosis that that person has that he's not taking the proper vitamins, maybe some diagnosis that person has. But still, though, having everything that we are doing that is possible and having journaling at the same time, it is challenging indeed, but I think it's just the power of will and having that self-motivation that is at the end of that fuel tank in that sense, and it goes, having that mixture and makes that combustion of rising it up and trying to show that emotional resilience in something that you want to do.

Speaker 2: 11:49

Emotional resilience and something that you want to do, especially when situations like this, that in this in us, uh, dads in this sense might have not, might not have that control of it well, I can't say much because I'm not the father yet, uh, but for hearing from other people, hearing from other mothers, and showing that empathy is just another level up of emotional resilience and motivation for the for for a mother trying to achieve that such goal yeah, and I take my hat off to mothers who stay at home, because staying at home and taking care of the house, that's probably the hardest job of them all and with PhD being so complex and it's hard work, sometimes intricate analysis it's nice to be able to take a step away and do work that's not so challenging.

Speaker 1: 12:42

So my part-time work is not so complex, so that gives me a nice break away from the phd um. But then the strategy stuff in terms of the board and the directors. You only meet maybe once every six weeks, so the commitments are not um, not that extreme um, but I like to be able to do a lot of different things like and.

Speaker 2: 13:04

Would you give us an example?

Speaker 1: 13:08

um. Well, the phd looks at volunteering um and disabled volunteering. However, the boards that I work on one is age connects cardiff and the vale um, so their purpose is to help older people um to live better in cardiff. Now that hasn't really got anything to do with disabled volunteering. However, my grandmother's still alive. She's very much a big part of my life and I think that's why I volunteer on that board to try and make a difference in Cardiff, um. But it makes me feel good being able to volunteer um, even on at a board level. It's still um, you're still doing something for for the greater good. You're working for free um, and it makes you feel good that you're doing something impactful and making a difference nice, so does that.

Speaker 2: 14:04

is that the background that you show, that that you said to me leads to what you're doing in your phd in the background of I don't know, do you need? Did you volunteer before getting to the phd or is it something that okay, so now I'm doing this phd in volunteering, it is something that really interests me, or did you have any background that led to that?

Speaker 1: 14:28

So I think my first time I ever volunteered was before my undergraduate application form, because I thought if I did a bit of volunteering in a charity shop that I was more likely to get into university. That's the truth of it. But I never stopped. So I began in cancer research and I did a Saturday and a Sunday there, but I've got about 10 years experience in the charity sector now as a volunteer. But I came to Swansea to do an undergrad in business management. That was around about 2016. And I was volunteering doing bits and bobs, but nothing really intense.

Speaker 1: 15:14

After that was my master's, but that was during COVID. So I finished my bachelor's and COVID came and I thought, well, what am I going to do? The whole world's closed down. So it seemed like the best protocol for me was to do a master's, keep that you know year busy, rather than sitting at home and doing nothing. So after that master's I thought right, I better go and get some experience in marketing. I've got a master Masters in marketing, but I've got no experience at all.

Speaker 1: 15:45

So I reached out to Discovery, which is the student volunteering services based at Singleton and Swansea University, and I just asked them could I start making some social media content. Could I start just having a bit of experience in marketing really, and this is where it kind of started. I fell in love with Discovery and everything that it does and I took on a lot of roles, so I went from just making a bit of digital media content to becoming the project coordinator for that project, so I managed about 11 individuals then making content. Um, and then I'd done a marketing internship and I absolutely what was the reason?

Speaker 2: 16:32

was it the employer or is just?

Speaker 1: 16:34

I don't I don't know, um, a lot of the time you're making newsletters, posters, and I was thinking, you know, I've I really spent four years of education to sit here making a few posters, like I'm sure I'm more capable than this. And I realized that I was. I was dreading getting up in the morning to go to work, but I was happy to get up in the morning to go volunteer for free. So at the end of the masters I decided I didn't want to be a marketeer anymore and I think that's where the idea for PhD came from. So in the beginning I was going to look at the psychological contract of volunteering. But when I began the literature review I realized that it was quite saturated of a field so I couldn't really make that much of a contribution. I knew I wanted to look at diversity and volunteering, but I wasn't sure which aspects of diversity I wanted to look at.

Speaker 2: 17:40

So it took about a year, I think, of literature review, forming questions, to make the decision that I was going to look at disabled volunteering some of that experience, and positive and negative experiences that you shared right now with me led to explore a bit of diversity, but you're exploring diversity in the sense of the inclusion of people from different backgrounds, whether they are ethnical or even people that have a diagnosed health issue.

Speaker 1: 18:31

Yeah, I think in the beginning I did a lot of mind mapping so I was kind of mapping where the diversity literature sat and I knew I wanted to try and make marginalized groups feel more included within the volunteering sphere. Obviously, my PhD I couldn't cover all of that, so I kind of had to decide what are you going to do? Choose one kind of marginalized characteristic. I self-identify as a disabled volunteer and the more I read I felt most connected to that topic. A lot of the literature suggests that disabled volunteers need help to volunteer. They're not competent or they are maybe weaker than people who aren't disabled. I found this like really offensive. I'm disabled, I'm a volunteer, but I'm very much able. So I get quite frustrated at the literature and I think this is where you know passion comes from and to change it.

Speaker 2: 19:38

So that's why we said early in the beginning of here the conversation that when you feel tired and even though you don't show that, people don't see it and we're looking at someone who apparently might be feel good on the outside but internally it is a different perspective. And I'm saying as well during the conversation that I had with felicity here on the podcast, saying I'm seeing one person but then on the inside there's another person. If going to a room saying the sick room, as she told me once on her thesis, it is a different perspective than seeing the sick room from the outside of it. And I think what she was trying to, what you've said to me, it is really alarming. It's really alarming in the sense of business managerial context to see people in the workforce that they have no disability or have a disability. All of them must feel included themselves and must be included within that workforce environment, which is tremendously important because the jobs is for everyone and there must be solutions for it. Do you agree on it?

Speaker 1: 20:55

yeah, yeah, I agree, um, but I think people seem to think or, if an organization is inclusive or accessible, then everybody's included. But I think people who aren't disabled, they can still be excluded from an inclusive business. So I think you know, even without a disability, you don't always feel included. Sometimes you feel pushed out, you don't belong in the groups. And I'm not saying that disabled um people um feel that more, um, I'm just aware that there's less opportunities for them and there's a lot more barriers um for them. What are?

Speaker 2: 21:36

those barriers then, and especially within the uk? It is mostly its context comes from an industrial background, but also it is interesting to see how do they encourage volunteering and asking you what are those barriers that UK businesses currently face?

Speaker 1: 22:01

In terms of the UK promoting volunteering. I don't know if I really agree with that very much. I think we see a lot of adverts marketing from charities, but they're usually funded by the charity funding. They're marketing it themselves. The government do frustrate me a little bit because the charities are having to do and pick up the work that the government aren't funding, so they're making cuts to services and then charities are having to step in to pick up that loss. And I'm not sure if you're aware, but if you're disabled and you're in receipt of disability living allowance or personalised independent payments, if you volunteer more than two to three days a week, my participants in my research are speaking about how they've had those disabilities money revoked. So the government, in a way, are not promoting people to volunteer, because if you volunteer whilst disabled, you're at the risk of having your disability money taken away from you. So they will state if you're well enough to volunteer for three days, why can't you work for three days? But my argument is that volunteering is not the same as work. It's usually quite lighter. Not the same as work, it's usually quite lighter, um, and it's it's a stepping stone a lot of the time to get these people confident enough to go into the real employment workforce, um, but a lot of the time they're kind of demonized by the government. They're scroungers, they're not working enough. They go to try and make a difference, they go to volunteer and then they get their benefits taken away from them. So we're kind of in a bit of a sticky situation there. When we think of the barriers, um, there's a lot, um, a lot of the time people will say well, how does having a disability affect volunteering? And I don't think it's the disability that impacts the experience, it's society that's impacting them. It's not their disability that's doing it, it's, it's the way the society's set up. So, for instance, one of my participants had hearing impairments and he said to me did you know that it was mandatory? It's legal requirement. On every single mode of public transport there should be a visual and an audio alert to tell you where the next bus stop is. I've never been on a bus where they've told you where the next stop is. Um, if you can't see, if you can't hear, how do you get off the bus in the right place to get to that volunteering opportunity? Um, and then mental health. If you've got an invisible disability of mental health.

Speaker 1: 24:50

One of my participants, faith. She had a clean DBS. So DBS is like a barring check check you've never been in trouble with the police or you've never done anything inappropriate with children and that you're safe to work with vulnerable people, really. So this participant had a clean DBS, had never been in trouble before. When she went to go to volunteer with opportunities with children, she disclosed her mental health conditions. They made out as if it was contagious, as if it was worrying it could be passed on to the children, and also that it was some sort of like safety concern. And it's just, we're in 2024. If you've got a little bit of depression, that should not stop you working with children if the DBS is clear.

Speaker 1: 25:42

So that's another barrier that people are coming up against, and accessibility is a big one. So if the organisation doesn't have accessible ways in, how do disabled people get there? I had one participant who communicated only through British Sign Language. That was. That was challenging because I was unaware, I wasn't kind of expecting the physicalness that comes with it. So we had an interpreter who was in between us and after 20 minutes they'd have to take a break, because it's physically draining, yeah.

Speaker 1: 26:21

So then the second half of the interview I had to take to email. But he said to me what do you want me to do? Walk into a charity and start signing at them, as if they're going to sign back at me.

Speaker 2: 26:33

So yeah, I think there's a lot of barriers in play plenty, of plenty of barriers, for sure, and solutions they seem quite minimal to, to to sort out with it. But is it because as you touched upon.

Speaker 2: 26:47

It is a societal issue. Has governments trying to the government trying to sort out that issue provide any upcoming solution? You've said that it is merely impossible for them to work on, but still is there any? It is merely impossible for them to work on, but still is there any light at the end of the tunnel? Perhaps to try to encourage them, to provide them into another solution, perhaps?

Speaker 1: 27:18

I think the fact that everybody's talking about EDI, everybody's talking about accessibility, shows we're definitely moving in the right direction. But then you get your news reports, like the latest one with Richie Sunak who is trying to get everyone off the disability allowance back into work. That really worries me because I don't know what's going to happen next for those people. They already feel like people are demonising them or looking at them as if they're of no economic value. They feel like they have no purpose, and this is only going to get worse if the government do implement these things. There's also a place that used to be called Remploy. It's now been renamed as Maximus, and their purpose is to help disabled people into work, and the two projects that are most successful have now been cancelled by the government and no longer funded. So it's like two steps forward and three steps back sometimes.

Speaker 2: 28:20

Wow.

Speaker 2: 28:20

So it seems a lot of quite political interest around here, but also quite motivating for those people, for those people that have those disabilities and 60% will have a disability even though they don't show signs of it because we still we as a society I think we are still looking at disability as if it is something physical, a physical impairment, and on something mental which we do not, we are not aware of it.

Speaker 2: 29:00

And, by the way, by the way you're saying it, it seems that the government is still does not care, or maybe does care, but trying to promote some sort of a, in a sense, to motivate the, motivate disabled people to um, going into the workforce and obviously encouraging them to work alongside with other people that also need help as well and earning their own salary, also creating their own clubs or maybe unionizing in that sense, which is also in the UK. Probably there's a lot of crisis around it, but as I'm not an expert upon it, so I won't be able to touch really in detail on that matter. So I won't be able to touch really in detail on that matter, but even with what you have done, the interviews in the collection and also this problematic issue of trying to help disabled people. Wouldn't that be some sort of equity, equality or any other aspect that can motivate them to get into the workforce and having a fair a fair how do I say? A fair treatment with other employees and with the employers respectively?

Speaker 1: 30:50

I think you touched on a few interesting things there. I think, firstly, um, we're all more aware of physical disabilities because we can see them, it's it's visible, we can see them, we see that this person needs help and then we tend to help them. Um, with invisible disabilities, um, you know, we can't see them unless people tell us about them. Then we're not going to know. Um. But at the same time, I do think the society is still stuck in a place where we see disability as wheelchair users, um, and we do need to move away from that. I'm not saying that, you know, that's not legitimate disability. It is, and they, they need help to get into volunteering and work as well.

Speaker 1: 31:32

But we do have to see the broader picture and often, um, we refer to them as a homogenous group. So they're just disabled people or they're just disabled volunteers, um, and this is why I wanted to do the research really to show each person's very individualistic. Their disabilities are usually quite complex. There's usually more than one health condition, um, and it's just. We just need to be a little bit kinder to help them get into the workforce. A lot of the time, um, with employability, what they're saying is there's a lot of bureaucratic tick tick boxing exercises going on. So if you go for maybe um, a usual paid job, you have to declare disability prior to working, you have to provide evidence, and that's quite overwhelming for a lot of people and it makes them feel not believed. So you don't believe me. I now have to go to the doctor and get a note just so, you, just so that you believe that I'm disabled, whereas in the volunteering sector we do not see that as much.

Speaker 1: 32:39

Um, they're not asked to provide evidence, much rarely, um. But what I've got across from these people is that they're saying to me I don't want to go into this new place and tell them that I'm disabled. I want them to get to know me for me, and then, after a bit of time, then I'll disclose my disability because otherwise you're gonna treat me differently. I think the future is is not asking for evidence or to legitimize it. If somebody feels they need an adjustment to make them work better, then who are we to stop them? Why can't we just allow them to have it disabled or not? Yeah, if it makes them work better, then just allow them to have it.

Speaker 2: 33:23

So is that also inclined to the concept of volunteering from a business point of view?

Speaker 1: 33:30

Yeah. So a lot of people are saying I go to the volunteer sector because it's more inclusive. They let me in, it gives me a purpose, it allows me to kind of dip my toe in the water and understand what it's like to work, and then that usually leads them on to full-time employment. Um, one person, one of the participants, he really stuck with me, um, with what he said, and he'd say you'd go into a shop or you pass people in the street and they say, hi, how are you? And you say, yeah, I'm good. And they say, well, what do you do as a disabled person? It's so demoralizing for them to say I don't do anything.

Speaker 1: 34:11

I don't work, um, and it's kind of like a badge of honor to them. They're like I have no economic value, I have no purpose, um, and when they, they volunteer, when someone then asks them that in the street, they've then got a purpose, they've got something to say, yeah. So I think volunteering it's not just an employability thing For them, it's a purpose in life, it's a reason to get up in the morning and it makes them feel equal in society that they are doing something and also being more active as well.

Speaker 2: 34:42

So I think the problem that we as a society we tend to look at not saying glancing, but overlooking it is the problem of the language. So saying volunteer, it does volunteering but it doesn't give that much value because either that person never did volunteering before or, if has done so, maybe probably got fed up with it and said I don't want to do this crap anymore. And when looking conversating with other people it might be when they do the disabled people say I'm doing a volunteering. They might look okay, okay, they don't say anything, but in their minds they're trying to tell something and let it off steam. But I think that's the problem also, that it's the language that is being transmitted and how we communicate volunteering in a more diverse system.

Speaker 1: 35:47

In that sense, yeah, again, it's society, it's the language, it's what we think volunteering is. Um, when I ask people what is volunteering to you, a lot of people think, oh, it's for. It's for mostly older people who are retired. They sit in a charity shop oh, that's not true.

Speaker 1: 36:08

I say to them what about the rni? What about the life boards? What about the magistrates? What about all the governing board roles? These are senior level volunteering roles that people don't realize. It takes a lot of skill to be able to do and I think it also takes a lot of willpower for, especially from all across age, age, age gap, from all across age range, to volunteering.

Speaker 2: 36:35

I've done volunteering as well, when around in my early 20s. When I did was to hand over food to people that had a job but their job wasn't sufficiently enough to cover the expenses, including rent. So that's the problem of also interpreting volunteering at a formal, a linguistic perspective. And volunteering is is good and also it helps you to boost any skills. It doesn't mean you have to do it the entire life. It opens doors for anyone, including people with disability.

Speaker 1: 37:20

I think, definitely we have this image, don't we? We think of volunteering. Volunteering we think of helping, maybe, older people, but then I challenge people and I say think of those lifeboats out of sea saving lives. You know that's very challenging work. They're really fit. There's some parts of volunteering that are a lot more challenging than paid employment. People just don't see it. But, yeah, I think we need to open our eyes a bit and a bit further to realise how many roles are actually voluntarily. You know most of the magistrates in courts they're working on volunteer basis. Yeah, and I'd love to say that the UK courts were inclusive, but again from participant stories it's not always the case.

Speaker 1: 38:09

So there's a T-link system for people who have urinates. So if you walk into Tesco's or most places, there's a sign and it'll say right, turn your urinate to a certain setting. It'll say right, turn your urinary to a certain setting. So one of the participants was in a magistrate's court, asked to put the T-link on, and they told her sorry love, it doesn't work. It's never worked. I don't think she couldn't hear what was being said across the courtroom. That's that understanding, then. Do the defendants who?

Speaker 1: 38:42

are having things put to them hear what is being said across the courtroom. So I don't think it's just the charity sector, realistically, that has an issue here. It's society in general.

Speaker 2: 38:53

So you've touched something that is really, really important in the sense of when you asked what is volunteering to you. Now I'm asking you, across the experience that you have conducted interviews with participants and also including the volunteer did what is, for you, volunteering? Did it change initially when you, when, when you started volunteering and how? And did it change after all, when, after doing some volunteering experience throughout these years?

Speaker 1: 39:25

it's interesting because people always say to me Nat, you're definitely a people person, you're always trying to help people. I'm a bit like an agony ant. I've got a lot of friends who put a lot of stuff on me. I'm naturally a person who tries to help. I've always been that way inclined. However, when I reached out to discovery, the purpose of me doing that wasn't to just help everybody, it was to become more employable. Um, so you know, I think volunteering is multifaceted in the sense that, yes, we do it because it makes us feel good, but it also gives us a social aspect and some connections. But you know this, there's more to it than just giving you time for free. It does make you employable. It's more of a social element employability, but then also well-being. So I say, for me, there's maybe about four reasons as to why I volunteer, but I would just conceptualize it as any work that is unpaid for a greater good.

Speaker 2: 40:29

So what age then would you recommend for the people that are maybe uncertain when to start volunteering or are a bit confused of what is the meaning of volunteering? Because I've been watching some videos on YouTube many people, they encourage volunteering, but it seems quite predatory in the sense of saying do volunteering, do volunteering Okay. But they're not explaining volunteering, the meaning, the reason of doing volunteering from, not just for the networking, networking and job prospects in the foreseeable future, but also about the mental state, the mental health of uh volunteer, of volunteering. How does that affect, how does it change the mindset of many people that see volunteering, uh, just by glancing at the dictionary I'd say I don't know.

Speaker 1: 41:32

I think any age is probably a good age to volunteer. I speak to some participants who have said it's in my blood. My family have always done it. So from about five I've've been fundraising, I've done all these things, um, I think it's on the person, um, when they're ready, um, you know, when they feel they want to do something. For some people they're never ready, they never want to volunteer, um, but for me it's um, it's kind of like a grounding thing. So, so I'm quite privileged that you know I've done three degrees, I've got good employability prospects. But to understand people who aren't privileged, or to try and step into somebody's shoes, it's hard to imagine.

Speaker 1: 42:19

Volunteering gets us there, on the ground, with those people. You get to talk to them. You speak about their lives.

Speaker 1: 42:26

You understand their stories and the difficulties that they go through, and I think it makes you realize, um just how lucky you are. Um. So you feel that privilege a lot. You go home and you you're thankful for the little things, for having access to a shower, for having a warm meal, things that you'd usually take for granted. So it does ground me a lot, but we still come up against barriers. So I could take maybe 20 students to a local soup kitchen and they could still say no, I don't understand why these people have no money. I don't understand why they don't work. Some people will never understand um, but I think the world would be a much better place if we could all just do a little bit to try and understand the communities that we're in um and try and help these people who are less privileged.

Speaker 2: 43:17

Yes, and I think that, again, as we we are instantly touching upon that this is a societal problem and maybe a lack of encouragement from all age rates to do some volunteering, even if it's just a little, just to open their eyes for a bit. We are selfish by nature and inherently cruel, but volunteering does give a whole different perspective of having, so building that humane character, to see that you feel privileged but you also have to get out of that comfort zone and try to experiment new things. I mean, for example, um, trying for the first time donate some blood. Well, that's a bit of volunteering I would say I've done. I've done that when I was 19, when I started doing with 19, until some, uh, controversy that happened back in portugal years ago, but that but that's another different story about it.

Speaker 2: 44:30

But it is one way of seeing volunteering and trying to maybe abstain from, abstain in a critical sense of those predatory approaches of many enterprises that encourage volunteering and that has some marketing behind it which is quite unfair. So that's one of the things and what I do with my students as well and also can be applicable to, I guess, volunteering in a sense, to have the some, the critical thinking of when do these big corporations they do it. Amazon, for example, is one of those. I I would say I would assume that encourages volunteering, but I might be wrong in the sense I might be wrong, I'm not sure. But uh, having that sense of critical thinking, but at the same time, well, I'm going to risk and starting volunteering at a small business, for example, and gaining some knowledge I think we need to move away, um, from it being like a numbers game.

Speaker 1: 45:25

So volunteering shouldn't just be about oh, this organization needs x amount of hours, x amount of workers, let's get some volunteers in. It needs to be more of a like a reciprocal thing. So what does the volunteer want to do? What are their future prospects, what do they want to get out of it? And we should be aligning the roles to that rather than just going oh we need volunteers here, let's get them in. It should be more of a two-way thing does that is?

Speaker 2: 45:53

does that also?

Speaker 1: 45:54

uh occurs within these people with disabilities yeah, so, um, there's some participants who speak about how they've had really bad experiences volunteering in places that aren't accessible and because of this, they now do a lot more research. So they check out the organizations that they're going to volunteer for.

Speaker 1: 46:18

They go and see them beforehand and they kind of scope it out whether it's for them or not, them beforehand. And they kind of scope it out whether it's for them or not because if you're disabled you go to volunteer and the experience is excluding you. Then it kind of makes you in a worse position than what you started in the first place and so we kind of you know there's no. It does the opposite effect then of what it's intended to do and it makes them feel even more recluse, like they can't get involved in society and it's intending to do and it makes them feel even more recluse, like they can't get involved in society and it's more damaging to them. So I would say to people who are disabled and thinking about volunteering, to check out the organisations first. Find the right fit for you and don't be scared to voice the roles that you want to do rather than being told what to do Exactly and also asking for help Anyone.

Speaker 2: 47:08

Many people nowadays have access to the internet, so ask any help. It's just in the case of you're not certain about it, and that's why critical thinking that we are taught here, whether in a university, or we're taught from an early stage as well, that is so important. Which do you think that it has been? The word diversity within volunteering and from a business context? Does it has been overused or misused, in a sense, from a political standpoint? From a business standpoint?

Speaker 1: 48:00

I think, in my view, there's a lot of talk and no action. So there's a lot of talking and no action. So there's a lot of, there's a lot of conversations about it. Edi is thrown up all the time as if it's some sort of buzzword, um, but I don't think, um there's much action being taken.

Speaker 1: 48:17

We're all talking all the time but none of us are doing anything to change it. Um, and you know, for me, volunteering is not kind of a replacement for work. From my research and what I see, it's either like a stepping stone into employment or for a lot of people, when they finish their working career, it's time to retire. It works as a stepping stone out of employment then. So I see it as a complementary of employment rather than, um than a replacing of employment.

Speaker 1: 48:49

Um, and I think, you know, even though we're looking at all these disabled people need to get into work. We need to see the economical value of volunteering and the amount of money that would be being paid out in employment pay if these people weren't volunteering. Um, and there's a lot there's like millions of pounds just in the uk alone um conducted in work free from volunteers. And if we, if we make it one or the other, then people are going to stop volunteering and we're going to have to pay more people. The government will have to pay more people. The government will have to find more money to provide for the services.

Speaker 2: 49:29

So I think everybody's going to understand. Do you have any example within the aspect that you're touching upon, any examples? So in the sense of I've lost the notion now doing yes on the plane, employment in a volunteering setting.

Speaker 1: 49:51

It's like one of the biggest barriers to volunteering. People say, oh, I want to volunteer, but I can't because I work. So it shouldn't be seen as something the same as work. So we're pretty much saying to this these disabled people, are we going to revoke your disability money because you're basically working, they're not getting a wage, they're working for free. It's not the same thing. We shouldn't be treating it as the same thing.

Speaker 1: 50:15

Um, if anything, I think they should be encouraging um, some sort of system. Maybe when people are people are on JobSeeker's Allowance, maybe if they could volunteer X amount of hours a week, then they will be entitled to their money or they have to do less job searching. It should be seen more as the stepping stone to get you into an employment. I think it should be prescribed to the unemployed to learn skills, skills that can be taken into other, into other places, and they become confident in the situation of work and then they tend to end up in employment anyway. But we have to let them volunteer and not take their money away from them for them to progress into paid employment lots of steps that has been done, but still it's still us, it's.

Speaker 2: 51:04

It's still a small, a small step in the whole and the whole global.

Speaker 1: 51:09

Look in the bigger picture of volunteering yeah yeah, I think you know, in terms of physical disabilities, again, most organizations now think, okay, I've got a ramp, I've got a lift, sure, I'm accessible. And this is where, um, my research comes in. I'm trying to say to them, even though, um, we're getting somewhere and things definitely seem physically more inclusive in terms of invisible disabilities and those adjustments, they're less put into place and we do need to make it more normal to allow adjustments.

Speaker 2: 51:54

No, it does answer the question and I think that, all in all, there should be more of awareness among the workforce, among the employers and employees. I think it's just maybe having some training as well in incorporating volunteering and diversity, and also which motivates people with disability to getting a standard life or a normal life, just like many other people that do don't have a disability yeah, I think, from from what the participants say to me, things are going in the right direction.

Speaker 1: 52:42

But we're just not quite there yet. There's still work to be done, especially with invisible disabilities, making people aware, educating them on it, um, and just trying to make people see the economical value of volunteering and how much the charity sector in the uk is actually picking up um. It's incredible.

Speaker 1: 53:01

You know there's there's millions of pounds and thousands of hours of work, um, and we need to kind of frame it in that sense that it's it's it's doing a lot of stuff for free, so realistically we need to put it on a bigger pair to sew them, or it's on um. If you think of um, you know the way the mental health is currently in the uk. If it wasn't for the likes of the suicide health way the mental health is currently in the UK, if it wasn't for the likes of the suicide helplines, the mental health charities, a lot of people wouldn't access any help because the NHS just can't do it.

Speaker 2: 53:34

And I think we just need to be more aware and thankful for all the work that these amazing charities are doing, which is, again, it's still a long way to go and plenty of work has to be done. Is there any, any other problem? Would you like to touch upon this sense, this sense?

Speaker 1: 53:53

um. I think the only other thing that's come through in my research um is lived experience, um and in particular, dramatic experience. So so people volunteers. For instance, now if you go to volunteer in a homeless um charity, they will say to you have you got experience of homelessness? Because that will aid your um application. If you go to work in um a mental hospital as a volunteer, which many people do, kind of as a befriender, there's little support going on. So, for instance, if I was a trained psychologist and I was helping, having conversations with people in a mental hospital in the psychiatric ward, then after that I would have supervisions, I would have check-ins, I would have someone asking me am I okay?

Speaker 1: 54:46

However, in the volunteering sector, these like high um emotional jobs are being done a lot of the time by people who have experienced these things, but there's no support there because the charities can't afford it um. So it's quite concerning for me that charities are asking for lived experience without providing the support there for re-triggering. So, for instance, one participant her brother had committed suicide and because he had committed suicide, she wanted to work with suicide prevention charities. She was really resilient, she wanted to work there, she wanted to make a difference Now.

Speaker 1: 55:30

In contrast, I had another individual who worked kind of with like child services trying to maintain relationships between a mother and a child before social services interventions. That participant had had experiences of post-natal depression and not very good experiences with their parents During their volunteering. It kind of triggered a post-traumatic stress disorder. She was having flashbacks, kind of like a reopening of her wounds through seeing other people go through it. She stopped volunteering and she had a nervous breakdown. And it's this realization that just because it's free in the volunteering sector doesn't mean it doesn't need support.

Speaker 1: 56:19

So I'm all for calling for lived experience. It definitely allows you to put yourself into someone else's shoes. However, we have to be really careful that these people have usually gone through quite hardships, bad experiences, and if we're asking for them to bring this experience, then we must be supporting them through those roads.

Speaker 2: 56:41

So that was an amazing experience, but it must be quite overwhelming for the participant. You've said about it it's like tripping away no, not tripping, taking away something that you really focused on and you show that resilience is like cutting your soul, basically, and I think everyone should have the opportunity to to do the volunteering and again, as we, we are touching several times, it gives you that experience and I think taking that away it is really a motivating factor in that.

Speaker 1: 57:30

It's really interesting because some people talk about this kind of contribution from further afield. So they're like I really believe in this cause, I've had experiences of it. Like I really believe in this cause, I've had experiences of it, but I know if I work on the ground with these people. I'm not going to be able to cope with that.

Speaker 1: 57:52

So I'm going to get involved in the board on the strategic sort of stuff, because I know the support isn't in place for me to be on the ground and it's frustrating that there are lots of disabled individuals who are really capable and talented who want to work in these spheres and change things, but because there's a lack of support there behind them, they're not doing that. Yeah, so a call for maybe more psychological support for those who are working in volunteering roles very similar to their own traumatic experience.

Speaker 2: 58:25

Does that also occur in academia, for example?

Speaker 1: 58:32

Likely, but I'm not sure. I don't know.

Speaker 2: 58:40

I've never seen anyone in a university that I don't university that might have a disability and volunteering in being an assistant professor or maybe a guest teacher that has a disability and giving lectures in academia.

Speaker 1: 59:06

So it's interesting because, again, this is society, because this is where people say so. An individual that I did interview is an academic. We're also a volunteer Now. They're very much open to disclose their disabilities in the charity, but they're not going to disclose them in the university. They don't want to tell somebody they have a mental health condition, risk um their future career, um risk being treated differently, um, and I think a lot of people have invisible disabilities and we just don't know.

Speaker 2: 59:40

But in terms terms of physical disabilities I don't see that many, but it's quite interesting to touch upon this point because I can give an example my mom, when she was doing she was on a nine-to-five job in between commerce but she was studying at the same time during night and she had a lecturer who was giving something around uh, diversity as well, if I'm not mistaken but I think he was diagnosed with some a mental health issue. That, um, on one day it was, I think it was a trouble with the with the university board at the time, back when I, when I finished my undergrad in well, I did erasmus, but I, technically I finished in portugal he got detained through a false menace of a bomb and they discovered that he had died. He had a diagnosis on mental health and everyone in the campus walked out and it was on the national news that he threatened everyone to bomb himself inside the campus. It was a sign of mental health. I can ask that to my mother again, but I think it was around it Because the media was telling that and obviously not trusting the media 100%, just thinking of a grain of salt.

Speaker 2: 1:01:08

But the basis of it and speaking among the staff of the university staff that was working at the time was relating to it about the mental health issue. So that would be one example of a person, of a lecturer with a mental disability and and also doing the volunteering, some volunteering work and getting paid as well I think, when we think of mental health, we kind of we all look at the, the films the craziness, the episodes, the mania, um, and there seems to be levels of mental health.

Speaker 1: 1:01:47

So if you've got a little bit of anxiety or you suffer from a bit of depression, I think in wales that's more acceptable. But if you've got schizophrenia or if you've got bipolar, then look out. You're not safe, you're at risk. Um, and nine times out of ten people with those conditions, 90% of the time they're stable. It's only the rare occasions where they have episodes, but they seem to be the most memorable bit. Um, which is quite frustrating. Um, but at the same time, um, if you went over to Ireland, you wouldn't disclose that you're depressed because they don't believe in it and their religion makes it. It's not okay to commit suicide. It's very frowned upon. If somebody did commit suicide and they came from Ireland, their family would likely say they had a heart attack or a different cause of death because it's so taboo. Um, so I think it depends on where we are on the culture.

Speaker 2: 1:02:48

It's the culture, and you've touched something really important, which is religion, and I, I myself, I don't identify myself with any, uh, religious things, although, for example.

Speaker 2: 1:02:58

But, guys, if you, including you, if you, if you invite me to go to a church, a mosque or a synagogue, I'm open to it. But going back now I think that also plays a part, the religious side than seeing a person that has a disability and wants to do volunteering, even being an acolyte in the church. You probably might present something, depending on the country that you are situated. So probably I need to educate myself a bit on this, but it's something really interesting to look at it as well.

Speaker 1: 1:03:35

It's interesting that you talk about religion, because in the earlier conceptualizations of what is a volunteer, what do they do, a lot of the literature speaks about um religion, because if you think of just christians, for example in the bible, help thy neighbor um altruism, is very much similar to what we're asking people being a good samaritan like and just doing on behind the scenes.

Speaker 2: 1:03:58

We need to help people. Okay, I'm going to help people, but you get bashed anyway.

Speaker 1: 1:04:02

Yeah so I think you know, maybe 10, 20 years ago, the demographics of volunteers were were clearly linked to religion. Um, churches picked up a lot, they did a lot of volunteering. But now, not that we're losing religion, but the more that people are more diverse in the community and maybe religion is less important. When I was younger, I used to go to sunday school every sunday. That was the thing. We all went to sunday school. Um, that isn't really a thing now. So I think maybe this is why we're seeing a step away from the religious linking volunteering, because we're becoming so diverse. Um, but yeah, it's definitely linked to helping others.

Speaker 2: 1:04:48

Um, I think this is why the link with the religion comes in a lot so yeah, do you still have to do any more interviews with uh other participants in the foreseeable future?

Speaker 1: 1:05:01

no, um, so my data collection in terms of interviews, linguistics, is done, analysed, but I asked the participants to do drawings, so I asked them firstly to try and draw their experience Some people couldn't do that.

Speaker 1: 1:05:17

I asked them could they try and draw what they think disabled volunteering would look like? Some people went straight ahead and done it. Some people said that the term in itself is offensive and they didn't like that I was asking them to draw so many individual people in one photo. Most people drew themselves. So I'm not sure now whether I'm going to actually analyse them as a visual data set or whether I'm just going to use them to kind of illustrate my thesis.

Speaker 2: 1:05:48

So that's the only bit I'm fiddling with at the minute. So what constitutes more, what is more difficult in your research, then, or what was more difficult when you began the interviews with the participants?

Speaker 1: 1:06:07

I don't know if you can tell, but I can talk. I can talk quite a lot.

Speaker 1: 1:06:12

I can talk for Wales and because I kind of had this insider view I'm a disabled volunteer myself when I started drafting the research questions, I was really concerned because I thought, right, I'm putting words in these people's mouths here, I'm asking about this topic, I'm asking about that topic and I'm kind of pushing them to say what I want them to say. This is when I decided right, I'm not doing narrative, I'm being too direct here. And this is why I took what is called a phenomenological approach, which is really hands off. The interviewer doesn't say much at all.

Speaker 1: 1:06:51

You have to stay really placid. You can't say, oh, that's terrible.

Speaker 2: 1:06:54

So something a bit more natural and smoothly.

Speaker 1: 1:06:59

Yeah. So I tried to stay away, take like an off approach. I would just say to them can you tell me about your volunteering experiences? They would say where do I start? And I would say, well, from the beginning, that would be good. And I had a prompt sheet. So they'd say certain words, like I do it because it's meaningful. So I would prompt them further then and say, well, what does meaningful mean to you? But I was really cautious that I didn't want to give my opinions or my experiences and I found that really hard.

Speaker 1: 1:07:31

Um, so when people were upset or they'd gone through really bad experiences, I couldn't say, oh well, that's terrible of that charity. They should never have done that to you. I would just say thanks for sharing that experience with me and, um, as someone who's quite um wants to help people, that kind of goes against my brain. That was kind of making me want to get up and give them a hug. Um, whereas I had to kind of take a back seat. Um, a lot of them got upset, um, three of them visually crying whilst telling me their experiences.

Speaker 2: 1:08:06

Of getting interviewed or after the.

Speaker 1: 1:08:10

So that while interviewing, a lot of them would get upset, I think when I asked them to reflect on maybe their happiest time and their worst time, maybe these weren't things they thought about or they hadn't reflected on before, and when we were sitting there talking about these things in depth, um, a lot of them just become quite emotional, um, and you know, I had to make sure I was signposting support services, um at the end, um, but for me it was going home and knocking off from that and not feeling the need to email them and be like hey can.

Speaker 1: 1:08:43

I help you with that thing, or can I save this? It was kind of like letting the participants go after the interview, which was hard for me, so what conclusions could you draw then?

Speaker 2: 1:08:57

I mean, well, you still haven't finished your PhD, but so far, what conclusions are you drawing from?

Speaker 1: 1:09:07

right now after these interviews so I'm looking at right now kind of the intersectionality between identity and requesting adjustments. So I've kind of categorized them into one theme of identity for four sub themes. And what's coming out is there's this one lady and she says I'm disabled with a capital T. I'm proud, I'm proud that I'm disabled. I don't care, I will ask for more. I want I will get it, because that makes my experience much better. And I named the theme disabledabled with a capital D.

Speaker 1: 1:09:46

The power that comes, the power that comes out in her quote and what I realized is because she was accepting of this disability identity, she was very confident in asking for what she needed and she wasn't afraid to ask for it, so she had all the adjustments that she needed. Her experience was good. Now I had other people who completely rejected the identity. I'm not disabled. I just fell down the stairs and broke my back.

Speaker 2: 1:10:13

Right.

Speaker 1: 1:10:14

I just had an accident. I'm not disabled. And I'd say to them so what would make your experience better? And they'd be like, well, I don't need anything special, like I'm not that disabled and they don't have the best experiences because they're kind of rejecting this identity. They're not requesting the things that would make their experience better because they don't think they're entitled to it. And then another problem is that in the UK currently a lot of health conditions the diagnosis process is really prolonged. So, for instance, if you're trying to get diagnosed with maybe ASD, adhd, asperger's, any of those things, the current waiting list is about five years.

Speaker 1: 1:11:06

So I interviewed somebody who thinks that she is autistic but isn't diagnosed yet. She's gone through all the testing, probably take like another three, four years before she gets the diagnosis or not. Now she's kind of in this state of I'm not disabled yet, I'm not there yet, and she was saying I think I need headphones and ear defenders, but because I haven't got the diagnosis I don't feel like I can legitimately ask for that, because if they ask me for proof or evidence I have none. So there's this kind of there's's four things. It's a bit like a jigsaw. There's the people who are disabled and proud um, they're getting what they need and that's making their experience good. These people who are rejecting it they're not getting what they need. Their experience is not so good. The people who um are in the process. They very much need adjustments and they're not getting them. They might not get them for another five years, which is really concerning.

Speaker 1: 1:12:09

Then there was another group that I named Grieving for the Old Me. So they would speak about kind of these two opposing identities, the version of me before I was disabled and the version of me now. And they had this thing that nothing could help them. The only way we could fix it for them would be to get a time machine, go back in time and remove their disabilities. And they were quite defiant and but what I noticed is those were the ones who suffered with their mental health the most in their experiences and they were also the ones who were talking about this kind of vicarious trauma or this, um re-triggering of lived experience. Were the people, um, who were um in this flux of I?

Speaker 1: 1:12:55

miss the old me, and they are the people who seem to have the worst volunteering experiences, who may need the most support. Um, so what I've realized is whether you accept a disability.

Speaker 2: 1:13:06

Identity has a major impact on whether you want to request, so it's likely in the sense that's well, there's two sides of a coin in what, in what you explain. Those who say, well, I was born with this disability, or I got this disability, so I have to accept it and live with it, whilst other others who may still not accept it or will want or won't accept, but in due time they, they, probably realize, well, I have to bear, bear this, this weight on me, so I have to accept it so that I can have something in life. And it's just how to wait to how, how, how it is, and again, it's just the, the mental factor that we have the difficulty to develop it at its full extent. But so it will take some time, nonetheless, to having the fact that we have a disability in ourselves and we just have to cope with it and trying to adapt it at any circumstance in this sense whatsoever, uh, volunteering, working and getting included into the workforce, essentially yeah, like, like, I don't think there's any right identity.

Speaker 1: 1:14:39

Um, I think people um should have the right to self-identify as disabled or not. I think that should be, you know, entirely up to them, but I think, going forward, what we just need to be more aware of, I've lost my train of thought it's alright, it was.

Speaker 2: 1:15:01

It was saying, as you touching about having the right to have it.

Speaker 1: 1:15:11

I don't think either of the four. I don't think like one is better than the other. I'm not saying, oh, we should all be proud to be disabled and then life's gonna be great, because yes that's a lie. Um, and to be honest, people speak um. One participant said before I was quite proud and I'd ask for what I wanted.

Speaker 1: 1:15:31

I got bullied in the workplace. I had a really bad experience, so now I hide the identity, so it's not as simple as going. Oh, some people decide that they're proud. These people are rejecting of it. It's what they're experiencing that's making them hide it a lot of the time as well. And I think, just trying to come to the conclusion that a disability is not a weakness, if anything. A lot of the time, people who have got a health condition are usually skilled and even like further than skilled, kind of of like specials the wrong word even better than non disabled people. And because they learn to do things differently and they think in different ways, or they've learned to navigate the world in different ways to what other people have, and this has given them better insight.

Speaker 2: 1:16:33

So I just think, yeah, more awareness and probably also looking at other examples, and one particularly the Olympic Games. Well, paralympic Games. Now in this context, and after the Euros, there will be the Olympic Games and the Paralympic Games in Paris, and I think it should be a great example of looking at athletes with disability and competing in a healthy way, in the healthiest way possible. In a healthy way, in the healthiest way possible, and it would be such an inspiration for those who want to thrive, whether into athletics or bocium I think it's called like that the game.

Speaker 1: 1:17:23

This kind of isn't really like my expertise in terms of sports. However, I think again, it's a lot of um, a rhetoric and reality going on. So the rhetoric of what the paralympics shows um and the olympics with people with disabilities maybe um makes people think, oh well, I could do that. I've got a disability and I could do that. However, um, a lot of my participants speak about the postcode lottery of Wales in comparison to England and, for instance, if you want to play tennis with a disability in England, great.

Speaker 2: 1:18:02

Where's?

Speaker 1: 1:18:02

your oyster In Wales. Not so much If you want to become a part of a disabled rugby team in England. There's lots of opportunities In Wales, less so much, and it's really worrying to me that maybe some disabled individuals are seeing these sports on the television and then they think they can do it, and then, when they actually go to do it.

Speaker 2: 1:18:25

There's no facilities and they don't have access.

Speaker 1: 1:18:29

So I think you know.

Speaker 2: 1:18:30

yes, again, it's good that we're seeing these things, but I think people assume that it is more accessible sport than what it actually is, and that comes with imagining that you have your own enterprise then, and then you're managing it with your employees from different cultural, ethnic backgrounds, including people with disability, and you're facing a crisis due to a lack of non-disabled employees specialized in a specific area of your business and trying to practice inclusivity to avoid any conflict and increase friendly and healthy productivity. Would you have any holistic approaches to help both disabled and non-disabled employees to work together in the healthiest way possible?

Speaker 1: 1:19:29

I don't think they're two separate groups. They're just people you know, and if you put non-disabled and disabled people together, they kind of will work together. Naturally, a lot of the time the disability then tends to disappear. But if I was in that situation, I think I would try and sit down with each individual and say you know, I really need all your help. What are your skills? Where can you help me and kind of do this matching against?

Speaker 2: 1:19:55

this win-win thing it's working out.

Speaker 1: 1:19:57

What do I need from these people? Where are these people more skilled? Where are their expertise and actually using them? Rather than just assigning them to volunteering or employment things that we need we need to to assign them to ones that they want and they need.

Speaker 1: 1:20:14

So would you promote, then, firstly volunteering and then encouraging them to practice volunteering at the school, whilst also working and from a salary salary paid wage there's a few big organizations, um, like d DVLA, who allow their organisation employees to all do a free day of work and they get paid for that volunteering day by the DVLA, so they get to take the day off, go volunteer somewhere else whilst still being paid in their role.

Speaker 1: 1:20:48

And I think we need more of that. We need more encouragement for organizations to allow people to take the day off to do a bit of volunteering. But, yeah, we all just need to help out a little bit more, not just these like silos of oh, this is the services from the government, this is charity, this is the private sector. I think we all need to come out, come together a little bit more and help out. Um, and for me, I think we need to kind of take the red tape or the bureaucratic exercises away from it. Um, you know, we shouldn't be making everyone disclose, prior to a job or prior to an experience, if they're disabled or not sure that should be up to them.

Speaker 1: 1:21:29

Um and again, like an open door policy with adjustments. I don't think it should just be them saying, oh, I need this. It needs to be a two-way thing where the employer says, well, my other employee found this helpful do you think this would work for?

Speaker 1: 1:21:45

you, um, and I think we should allow adjustments for everybody, even if they're not disabled. I use a fiddle toy frequently when I teach, so it's just something in my hand to keep me focused, to keep it going. Now in the beginning of term, some people can say why are you doing that? What is that? By the end of the term, they're like where can I get one of those fiddle toys? Because that's really good. So I think the more we see adjustments in day-to-day life, um, the more we see these adjustments being normalized, um, then the better world it'll be.

Speaker 2: 1:22:21

That's so in uh, with that said, it's just to say doing something, others will see it and then will try to adapt themselves. And then encouraging people to do volunteering, encouraging, uh, people with disability to do volunteering, and or and with the perspective of getting to the workforce and inspiring other ones that want to follow that same path, then and that and all of it and similar to remote working.

Speaker 1: 1:22:52

I think you know we've seen a big move since covid in most sectors for remote working. Um same needs to be said for volunteering sector. A lot of people with disabilities who can't get to places would have a lot more opportunities if we took a lot of things online. So I think you know the future would be brighter if we could facilitate more remote working, not just in business, in charities too.

Speaker 2: 1:23:20

So I believe, then, that the word volunteering, it's still a word that needs to be widely explored, and I think it's the definition of it might be infinite, because we still need to do plenty of work to be more, not say just inclusive, but being more humane as possible to incorporate every single person from different disabled backgrounds, but that will take a long time.

Speaker 1: 1:24:00

Yeah, I don't think as a society we'll ever be completely inclusive, but I think, hopefully, this is probably what I'll spend my career pushing for, um, and I hope by the time I end it, we'll be in a better place than when we started oh well, natalie.

Speaker 2: 1:24:17

So it was a great to, to hear to, to hear you and share, to hear you sharing a bit of your, of your research. So I'd like to ask you uh well, as a, a mother and as being a PhD student, do you have any advice that you would like to give to the students, and including graduates who, well, are not parents yet but they want to do a PhD? So what would you?

Speaker 1: 1:24:46

I think I'd encourage anyone to do a PhD. It's kind of the most sort of stress some days, but it's also the source of great happiness, but not as a mother, but when I become unwell. When I first come to uni to do a business management degree, I wanted to be an entrepreneur. I wanted to open 10 million companies. I wanted to make loads of money.

Speaker 1: 1:25:16

And my aim was money, money, money, and I'm open about that. But as soon as I had cancer, I think I had to realign my life. I think I thought what matters to me, what makes me feel good, what can I do to make a change on this earth that when I'm not here anymore, I'm still having impact? Making money is not going to do that. So my advice to everyone would be go and have a career in something that you feel passionate about and something that makes you feel like you're improving something or leaving it in a better position than what you found.

Speaker 1: 1:25:55

That will include as well doing the, the PhD, then yeah, I think, um, you're never going to get the chance to have three years to choose a topic of your choice. Um, you know, I chat for hours about it. I probably drive my partner absolutely insane, um, but at the same time, it's so exciting. It opens so many doors for you, um, and there's so many skills that come with being a sole researcher.

Speaker 2: 1:26:24

Um, yeah, I think everybody and I also agree with agree with you on that, natalie, because as I've been touching upon as well with the previous sessions that I had, other talks we had with other PhD candidates that I think for me, phd will be the future degree and then I think it's slowly being visible in academia at least, and I think in industry jobs too, but I think it's a small strata. I think it would give me an idea of doing a session for the foreseeable future about this and about my perspective, but I do believe that it will be the required degree in the future for specific and major tasks that require a specialized, exclusive speciality for that specific job. So that was it, I agree. So do you have any social media you'd like to share? In regards to social media you use for working contexts, like the one that you you've shared on LinkedIn, I have a LinkedIn and that's the only one.

Speaker 1: 1:27:33

So I'm more than happy for you to share my LinkedIn, but, yeah, not on other social media platforms. But, yeah, linkedin would be great.

Speaker 2: 1:27:42

So if you check just Natalie Jarvis on LinkedIn, then you will see the work that Natalie has been done specifically on her research. Probably that you've shared yesterday, or was it today that you shared about your talk, about your topic at the PGR Research Festival?

Speaker 1: 1:28:02

Yeah, so I'm not going to brag in my show. I think I conducted a conference on Monday and then on Tuesday Swansea's PGR conference, and today was my PhD podcast, so three days before PhD.

Speaker 2: 1:28:20

Again, we had to schedule it and hopefully it was today. It was great because we tried to schedule it for a long, long time. And we got there eventually. So, natalie, thank you so much. Keep on doing what your voice tells you to go, and I believe that your PhD research topic will be a great topic in the future then, so that everyone will have. Whoever is reading it will have a different feeling and a different sense of seeing volunteering in a different way. In a different way.

Speaker 1: 1:29:02

Thank, you so much for having me.

Speaker 2: 1:29:03

Thank you so much for having me.

Speaker 1: 1:29:06

Thank you Bye.

Speaker 2: 1:29:10

And that's a wrap for this Late night chat with the lovely Natalie Jarvis. Her inspiring talk at the PHC lounge about the challenges of supporting and promoting equal opportunities for disabled volunteers in the UK workforce, despite their physical or mental impairments, really made me think. It's clear that change is needed and it's great to see that positive steps are being taken. It was also really lovely to hear Natalie sharing some of her interviews with disabled volunteers and workers through her PhD. They talked about the difficulties of getting socially and laboriously acknowledged into the workforce or showing their pride on how their disability led them to challenge themselves in their lives to achieve their greater goals and dreams A really engaging topic that is worth tuning in and, if you have done so, thank you very much.

Speaker 2: 1:30:06

More late night talks and solo sessions are coming soon and if you want to know more about Natalie Jarvis' research, I'll leave in the description her LinkedIn page by typing her first and surname respectively. And if you want to know more about the podcast, then check the website phdloungecouk, where you can find also my socials Facebook, phdpodlounge, instagram, phdlmfx, phdlaunchcast and make a donation to help the podcast grow and for the podcast algorithm If you are a PhD student or graduate and would like to have a late night chat with me, or if you want to make a collab or business inquiries, then send me an email at luigephdlounge at gmailcom. Thank you.