Late-Night Interview: Michael Gerharz, PhD: Irresistible Communication, the Aha and Point in no Return effects in public speaking, power of communication in your PhD and more...

Students and graduates!

Dr Michael Gerharz, a German PhD in Computer Science, talks about the importance of effective communication and what makes a great public communicator.

Effective communication is a skill every PhD student must master, yet many struggle to make their complex research understandable to a lay audience. Dr Michael tackles this challenge head-on, drawing from personal experiences of explaining intricate research to family members without academic backgrounds to anecdotes about the reluctance of some academics and non-academics to simplify their language to practical advice on using plain language and digital tools.

To know more about Dr Michael Gerharz and his brilliant work on effective public communication, check out his website where you can find his articles, his blog "The Art of Communicating" and his new book The PATH to Strategic Impact: https://michaelgerharz.com/

Irresistible Communication Podcast: https://michaelgerharz.com/podcast

Thank you all for tuning in, it has been a pleasure!

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Transcript

Dr Michael Gerharz: 0:00

And there's an interesting dynamic here, right.

Luis Maia: 0:02

Yes.

Dr Michael Gerharz: 0:04

Because I bet that if you ask your colleagues, at least 90% of them would be afraid of taking that approach. Sure, because what if I don't know the answer to that question? What if it's an ill-meaning question, if they want to attack me, or things like that?

Luis Maia: 0:54

Hello students and graduates, welcome to PhD Lunch, the podcast of late night interviews in which PhDs have a drink and talk about their research topics. I'm back in Swansea after a week in Oxford where I conducted my third field research of my PhD degree. In short, I had a stipend from the finance department of Swansea University to spend on accommodation, travelling and subsistence from the 1st to the 5th of July of July. I didn't get to see as much as I would have liked in Oxford, but I did get to see some amazing sights, including the Bodleian Library, the Ashmolean Museum and the Historical City Centre. Nevertheless, as a museum and historical architecture and urbanism enthusiast, the sights of Oxford never get old. I want to watch it as much as I want, even if I get another opportunity to go there. Even during the final hurdles of my PhD, I am working hard and hopeful to conclude it so that I can prepare myself mentally for the dissertation debate.

Luis Maia: 2:02

While I was looking for some specific volumes on my research topic, I went to my favorite coffee shop, the Spires Cafe. I was really excited to find an old friend there with whom I'd been friends since last year. We had a great chat about everything, talking about the amazing coffee they serve and how the incredible smoothness and flavor of the cappuccino lingers in my mouth. We also discussed my research with him and his life in Oxford while he's been getting used to the city and the UK as a whole. My friend didn't remember my name, but he was really sorry about it. I'm used to that kind of thing so I didn't mind, but I remembered his name and he was really sorry about it. I'm used to that kind of thing so I didn't mind, but I remembered his name and he was really happy about that. One of the best things about my personality is remembering names, making sure to train my brain every time I meet someone new so that I can remember anyone's name. It's a great quality to have when you meet someone. It makes them feel happy and valued when you mention their name. It also helps to stimulate your brain to remember people and things.

Luis Maia: 3:12

If you're tuning in to this session and you're in Oxford for a while, or even living in the city, then you've got to check out the Spires Cafe. They serve up the best coffee in the city and you can choose your favorite coffee. I also had the pleasure of meeting a lovely couple from Portugal who have been living in Oxford for several years. Both of them are from the capital, lisbon, and we were watching the Euro 2024 round of 16, where my country, portugal, faced Slovenia. We were so excited to see them play and Portugal won on penalties, but unfortunately they were eliminated in the quarterfinals against France on penalties as well. Nonetheless, we had a great chat about the current situation in Portugal, about life, our reasons for moving to the UK and about our work and studies. It was such a lovely time to meet them and have such an interesting chat, and hopefully we'll meet again soon.

Luis Maia: 4:13

If I have to go back, the week in Oxford was absolutely wonderful. Not only was I conducting research, but I also got to catch up with some old friends and make new ones. I really enjoyed spending time there. I'd love to go back there again for another field research trip or maybe submit an abstract for a conference that the Department of Ancient History of Oxford University may announce and then present my topic upon acceptance. I'm excited to share another insight with you on the PhD launch.

Luis Maia: 4:49

On the 1st of July, I officially started my 4th year of my PhD. This is an optional year of my 3-year full-time PhD that I had decided to go for after a deep conversation with my supervisor about it. Despite having one more year to submit my dissertation, I am yet to be able to provide some great material with excellent arguments around my main argument. When I defend my thesis at the Viva Vuelque with the examiner, my supervisor has been saying to me since the start of my PhD that it is better to create an outstanding product than rushing it and producing poor results. My supervisor took six years to successfully complete his PhD for reference and there is absolutely nothing wrong with completing the dissertation beyond the required years. This also makes me question do the majority of PhDs complete their dissertations and their vivas in three years?

Luis Maia: 5:56

I had a great chat with a friend of mine who is also a PhD student at Swansea University a couple months ago. She told me that it is absolutely possible to finish it with a brutal work ethic. She gave me the example of a PhD who completed his thesis in just three years, working as a senior teaching assistant as a side hustle. While it was an interesting conversation where me and her discussed this topic, agreeing with her POV, I also have to say that even if it's possible, it's something rare. That's because not many PhDs can finish the degree in under three years, given that they might have other jobs and their personal problems their personal problems Also that PhD candidate may have written an essay that did not require writing huge text chunks, other than presenting results and showing them through papers and articles.

Luis Maia: 6:54

If I were in that situation, as that PhD student was, I would probably finish it in under three years, not having to worry about working at Nando's part-time, making the podcast, or even working as a senior teaching assistant, having only the two-hour teaching placement at the brilliant club to cover my expenses. Moreover, finishing your PhD beyond the three years is totally fine, and the experience is bound to become richer when you participate in conferences, write papers and articles, suggest new ideas of chapter drafts for your supervisors, or even do a side hustle job that enhances your emotional resilience and work ethic. I am not undermining the value and hard work of that PhD candidate who has already graduated, but, in my opinion, finishing a PhD in another three years is a rare achievement, and so I praise his boldness. This conversation would be an interesting topic to talk about at the podcast, and it is likely that I want to write a script focusing on writing and submitting a PhD dissertation within the required time, whether it is within the three years or more, depending on if your PhD is full or part-time.

Luis Maia: 8:14

And with this update, let's present another late-night interview with a PhD who did his research in computer science in Germany almost 20 years ago. Currently, he is a communication expert, helping his clients to improve their communication skills for different audiences, and has various articles and a podcast called Irresistible Communication, sharing his insights and methods to develop excellent communication techniques to stand out from the crowd. All his excellent work will be put in the session's description. So, after having a moment, please grab yourselves a drink, have a seat and let's warmly welcome Dr Michael Gerhras. So, dr Michael Gerhas, pleasure to meet you and welcome to the PhD Launch Podcast. How are you feeling today?

Dr Michael Gerharz: 9:43

I'm good and I'm particularly feeling well because you've invited me on your show. Great to be here.

Luis Maia: 9:48

So thank you very much. And I was looking actually for doctors or graduates on PhD and essentially the concept of the PhD lounge is basically inviting current PhD students and also PhD graduates. So I've extended the concept to make it more exciting for the guests and I was looking for guests actually and matchmakerfm was, I'd say, the pinnacle of finding amazing guests, of finding amazing guests, and you came to the list and so I got interested in knowing a bit more about yourself, about your PhD and also about what you do with your PhD or something related. So I'd like if you could share with us some of your background and then, upon the conversations that we had through emails or, let's say, message on Matchmaker, you said you had a PhD in computer science and then you shifted up to being an expert in public speaking.

Dr Michael Gerharz: 10:59

So tell us about that background and how your PhD then led to having a 180 degree turn to then become a public speaking expert yeah, and that question makes a ton of sense because it's actually giving me a lot of baffled stares when I tell people that originally I'm a computer scientist.

Dr Michael Gerharz: 11:25

Because, well, computer scientists are not exactly famous for being great speakers and communicators, right, and they're often considered to be those pale guys sitting behind a computer, never seeing a ray of sunlight and running away screaming when someone even talks to them, right?

Dr Michael Gerharz: 11:44

Well, that's actually not been my experience during my time at the university, but of course, it's a valid question, and I think one of the things that always baffled me was how little care there was for the words that people use to convey their ideas, and how many great ideas actually fade into forgetting because people don't care for finding better words to communicate those ideas.

Dr Michael Gerharz: 12:19

And I would often hear complaints about why. I would often hear complaints about why this inferior idea got the funding but my superior wouldn't, or that the audience should care more about this or that, or should be more rigorous in their evaluation of ideas, when the truth is that it's the exact opposite, that if I care for what I do and if I believe in the ideas that I explore and if I think that those ideas deserve to make a better impact, then it's my responsibility to make that happen, to find the words to make audiences interested in that, to get their attention, to make it easy for them to evaluate, to engage in a conversation with me, to get curious about what's behind that theory, that idea, that algorithm that I developed, and that's what ultimately got me to make that 180 degree turnaround, as you call it.

Luis Maia: 13:23

So thank you for sharing, and that is an amazing background. So saying if touch on specific word, which is responsibility and responsibility is a huge skill as well to be committed to in this, in this sense, a large group of people to communicate what we really need, what we want, to let it off steam, basically, and the audience is there to pay attention to us, to what we want to say. And again, another interesting factor here is choosing words that fit for the audience and communication. In PhDs we have that difficulty. We don't, we probably not saying we don't know, but there may be a lack to fill that gap on, to develop even further that skill when you were doing your PhD and then after you've graduated, did you notice any difference when you had that, when you started practicing public communication?

Dr Michael Gerharz: 14:59

Well, actually I think it started way earlier than that. So I think there were two very deciding moments way before I actually got to my PhD that had a profound influence, and the later of those was that I always drive to make it clear to my family what I was doing the whole day, why on earth I would spend five years of my days, basically most of the time, being frustrated about all the experiments that didn't work out as expected, all the bugs that I had to hunt, the papers that popped up and made me feel like, oh, that has already solved everything that I spent three years researching on. So why on earth would anyone go through that hassle? And I wanted to try to find words to explain that to my family. Most of my family doesn't have an academic background. Actually, they are living in my grandma's, living in a, or has been living in, a very small village, never traveled far, never got any higher education, but still I wanted to try and find words to be able to explain to her at least what was the gist of what I do.

Dr Michael Gerharz: 16:22

Why was that important? Maybe not get him, get her to um to understand every um supplety and all the nuance details of the algorithms that I was was researching that, that that probably wasn't the goal, but to at least be able to find words that make it easy for someone who's not an expert, or even someone who's very far away from the actual research community, to be able to at least get the gist of it. And that is something that always kind of amazed me to see how many of my colleagues actually kind of shied away from that or would even consider kind of lowering that bar to be a sign of weakness, so to speak, so that using kind of complex language, being eloquent in the technical jargon, was worn by a badge of honor by way too many of my colleagues who would not cross that border of using actually plain and simple language to explain complex ideas, rather than the opposite, right that the more complex the words you use, the more eloquent they would consider you. But that surely doesn't help your ideas to conquer the world right.

Luis Maia: 17:57

But then I think there's also a sense of irony in when explaining jargon and other specific words to people that don't know anything about our field. They, on one hand, as you said, they see this eloquence of he's quite, say illiterate, illiterate, sorry, illiterate, and then, on the other hand, they go apart, they let us go speaking our own selves, and they don't receive the information that they are not trained to process. And I say also from my experience, and still as a PhD student, when I explain my research to my family, only my brother and my mother have degrees, my father doesn't. But aside from that, it's completely different from what I study in ancient history. And I say so have you been progressing your thesis? If I say something, oh, I've been progressing about this specific case study in which these inscriptions in Hebrew and Persian. I'm taking so much time to analyze its words, its meaning and all of that. And then, specifically, when I speak this with my mom, to which I speak more frequently about the thesis, she won't understand any single thing that I've explained using appropriate words to more simplistic words.

Luis Maia: 19:44

To talk my research, to share my research, even at my part-time job as well. When I explain not very often, because many of my working colleagues there, they don't understand and they won't even bother with it. And so one of those key components colleagues there, they don't understand and they won't even bother with it and so one of those key components is trying to shape the language to suit your own audience, and I think there is something that we as PhD students and even after as being an alumni, we still have that difficulty to hone those skills. Do you reckon as well that is a lack of practice or maybe a lack of information from the universities themselves when announcing public speaking events, but that might or may not teach specific vocabulary to share our own research to an audience that is not knowledgeable about our subjects? Is it a thing that universities are missing?

Dr Michael Gerharz: 21:01

do you reckon? Well, I'm certainly not deeply involved in the in the university procedures anymore, but from from what I see, from kind of the annual workshop that I do for the university of bonn, and in teaching phd students on how to communicate their science better, mostly to a broader public, I would certainly agree that there's a lot of room for improvement there, that there is some potential that's being missed there. I mean, there are some students and some researchers who just take it in their own hands and who just would use the tools that are available today, that weren't available when I was doing my PhD, where we didn't even have blocks or things like that, where basically the only way to spread the word about your science was to publish a paper in some journal. But times have changed a lot since then and if you really care for spreading the word, then hopping on one of the social medias or just launching a YouTube or TikTok channel will help you do that in a way that gets you in direct touch with broader audiences. And when you do that kind of consciously and pay attention to the reactions, that kind of consciously and pay attention to the reactions, you'll have a very good chance of getting a feel for what resonates, what kind of words, what kind of explanations, what kind of metaphors actually work for a broader audience.

Dr Michael Gerharz: 22:54

But that's not a very widespread sentiment in the university as a whole, where I still see many professors not really bothering about whether anyone is able to really whether a broader audience or the general public would be able to really understand what they were doing. I'm not entirely sure whether kind of a vocabulary is the path to go here, but certainly kind of a more profound understanding of why it matters that I am able to explain to someone who's not a very deep expert in my own field, to someone like those people, to explain to them why that is valid research, why it matters, why it's worth a couple of hundred thousands of pounds in funding and stuff like that. So there's certainly a missed opportunity and sometimes even kind of a shifting of that responsibility that we spoke about earlier, where some of the parts of the research community will consider it kind of the responsibility of the public or the readers to make sense of their research, rather than the other way around.

Luis Maia: 24:31

Sure, and again, it's the responsibility, and specifically in many universities, as you've touched, that many professors don't seem to bother to a larger extent just to find the right words to communicate effectively and something comes up with what you do and I'm really reading some of your free e-books, your articles that for me, will be very helpful as well in the near future to communicate even more in public, even when defending my own research. Specifically, and one specific aspect that I was really interested in knowing about it is to let the audience do your work, if it is the correct approach that I'm taking it, as I was reading here on your PDF. So what are your thoughts upon this?

Dr Michael Gerharz: 25:36

to let the audience do do the job yeah, that's certainly kind of provocative way of phrasing. What I see in many presentations, not only in the scientific context but also in industry context, is that well, many presentations are kind of given from what you could even call a selfish context, right, selfish approach. Where here's what I want to say I throw it at you and I'm hoping that something sticks, and it's mainly your responsibility to make sense of it, to find the point and to kind of figure it out where it all leads to. What's the actual point in what you said, um and and so what? What will happen in in scientific context often is that, well, scientists are kind of an anxious society, in a way, right In that.

Dr Michael Gerharz: 26:36

There are two very strong fears, and the first one is that what they would say is not complete, that someone would say would be able to argue that you've missed this or that part. So the usual approach is to overfill presentations, papers or basically any kind of communication that you do so just to make sure that every single aspect is checked. And of course, the other probably even more important, is that some of that would not be correct, so that we would use some vague or not entirely appropriate way of phrasing what we say, and so many research presentations that I see are much like the textbook style where we start from kind of the assumptions then build everything up style where we start from kind of the assumptions, then build everything up, kind of discuss every option, variation, variant, parameters, until we get to a point where we've kind of covered it all and then only then comes kind of a practical example. But of course that's a very overwhelming way of communicating to your audience. And when you compare that to how more popular-oriented media like Scientific American, for example, or some of the better-known YouTube channels like Veritasium or something like that, they would often do it the exact opposite way. They would start with an example, something that's very familiar from our everyday life that we've probably been in touch to or have experienced, gone through ourselves to make sense or at least to raise a question, which might not be an entirely appropriate representation of the whole theory that I'm going to present, but it gives your audience a point of attachment which allows us to engage in a deeper conversation and to dig deeper and to finally get to a point where we've arrived at a complete and correct definition and treatment of the topic, but in a way that my audience was actually able to follow.

Dr Michael Gerharz: 29:08

But that fear that we talked about earlier, that we might not be correct and complete in our presentation, extends to the whole thing. So even at the first slide, we have the fear that we might not be correct and complete, and so we throw everything again. We throw everything at our audiences, completely overwhelming them, leading to the audience just tuning out because they cannot follow, because it's too deep, too quickly. And so what happens here is that we basically ask the audience to find their way through the maze of all the things that we got to say, find their way through the maze of all the things that we got to say and to find that way that they can make sense of all the information, because we were afraid of speaking with more clarity, using plain and simple language, finding simpler words to express complex thoughts. But the thing is this if we overwhelm our audience or if our audience decides well, that's too complex for me, I don't even care, they didn't even bother to make me care, they will tune out. And what happens is that, despite being complete and correct, that doesn't matter, because no one's heard it, because they tuned out earlier, because you missed their attention entirely, and so I think a much better approach is to make that work for your audience way easier.

Dr Michael Gerharz: 30:50

To not delegate the hard work of what's the point here? Where's the focus? What's the easiest way to make sense of it? How does that translate to my everyday life? To make that work for the audience as easy as possible and think a little bit harder on our side. What would be appropriate metaphors? How can I translate this technical concept into something that makes sense from their everyday life? How can they better relate to that? Is there an effect on their future from what I'm researching here and what is that effect? And how can they kind of weigh that with? What's the alternative? And that is something that you don't want to delegate to your audience.

Luis Maia: 31:33

Sure, and I think this is an interesting thought, critical thought because many of the speakers they probably miss the psychological impact from their audience Because if they, for example, will share their own work on a larger audience, one of the things I think they could think about is think about what the audience really wants to hear and not thinking too much on ourselves as speakers. And I think that would be also an important aspect to think about because many of the people who's going to attend but not really getting the audience continuing, get continuing excited, exciting to hear the rest of the topic. They go behind, they sit down and they say when does the speaker end? When does this speaker stop talking so that I can go? When does the speaker end? When does this speaker stop talking so that I can go?

Dr Michael Gerharz: 33:05

And I think that's one of the key aspects that many speakers miss. In trying to practice, there's a tool that I've borrowed from that goes back to an American math professor, professor Sari Donald Sari. Professor Professor Sari Donald Sari, and I found that anecdote in a brilliant book about college education what the Best College Teachers Do by Ken Bain, and in that you'll find that story about Professor Sari, who uses in his lectures what he calls the who. Gives a damn principle the who gives a damn-a-damn principle.

Luis Maia: 33:37

How do you spell it?

Dr Michael Gerharz: 33:38

Who-gives-a-damn, who-gives-a-damn, like D-A-M-N, who-gives-a-damn, ah, who-gives-a-damn. Principle yeah, and he will explain that principle at the beginning of the first lecture of the semester, and it goes something like this that by that principle, he gives his students permission to interrupt him at any time during the whole semester with that exact question who gives a damn? And he will then immediately stop to explain why this particular thing, that particular equation that he's currently writing on the blackboard, is super important for today's lecture, but also probably why it's important for your broader education and journey in becoming a mathematician. And so basically for every single thing, every single word, every single so to translate to other fields every single bullet point on any slide, professor Sari would be able to tell you why exactly it is there, and not only from his perspective, but why it matters for you as someone who's listening to that presentation, to that presentation. And, of course, one crucial subtlety here is that this is different for different audiences, right.

Dr Michael Gerharz: 35:03

For a math student, that might be different from a conference presentation, from a pitch to the funding partners, from a keynote at a public event, right, and that, as you basically pointed out earlier in your remarks, that is a question that's not asked nearly often enough where we really ask ourselves so who gives a damn? Many presentations, particularly in the science field, are given from, in that sense, from an entirely selfish perspective, where it's about here's what I found out kind of makes sense rationally. But from our perspective, as someone who's gone through that process and who knows why that sequence of of thoughts makes sense, um, so we're gonna speak about things that matter to us, that cost us blood, sweat and tears, bring it in in a, in a sequence that makes sense to us, and then leave everything else to the audience and not once asking so slide 13,. Do we really need those six bullet points on that slide? And who gives a damn for bullet point five?

Luis Maia: 36:31

Yeah, or maybe it's to try to convert those bullet points into a plain text.

Luis Maia: 36:41

That ought to be a bit more engaging, more impactful for the audience.

Luis Maia: 36:46

And asking about that do you give a damn about this text?

Luis Maia: 36:52

And one of the things that I also try to do as a teacher as well, because I have a teaching placement as well, and one of the things that I try to do with my students is to introduce myself to them, to set up the mood, and I start with slides and in my case, since I teach history of art, I do small text but plenty of images and I try to communicate them with images, inviting them to interact with the simplest words possible, but at the same time, trying to make them more engaging with them, with them.

Luis Maia: 37:43

And I think that's a good way of practicing in a less selfish way so that they can get engaged and then they can ask plenty of questions, as I allow them to interrupt a few times so that they can get excited in their interaction, and then we try to communicate as a whole, and I think that's one good way of practicing. And also many, many PhD students, including those who are venturing into industry jobs or academic jobs, also may miss those points because they probably lack of training or maybe any sort of practice or interacting with people, and comes also with their own inner personality, probably and that that is really a brilliant approach to to any kind of scientific topic or, or, and, and the presentation to any kind of yes scientifically interested people.

Dr Michael Gerharz: 38:40

Because one thing that's for sure, and that we do know about that kind of audience, is that it's made up of people who like to figure things out.

Dr Michael Gerharz: 38:51

Sure, they are in, they are intrinsically curious people and throw any kind of puzzle at them and they basically can't help and immerse themselves in it and try to make sense of that. And so what happens with a lot of presentations is that we dismiss that aspect. We figure out everything for them in a way that makes sense for us but not necessarily for them. So we rob them of the possibility of engaging their science mind, their curious mind, of their desire to figure things out. And that's, at least from what you described to me. That's what you seem to do with your students, that you tap into that curious part of their brain. You allow them to be a scientist in that moment, to feel like here's something that makes me curious and I want to figure it out. And basically you're much more a guide than a lecturer or someone who's giving a monologue about something that interests him, but much more a guide that shows your students a way to make sense of that field for themselves.

Luis Maia: 40:15

Yeah, sense of that field for themselves. Yeah, so did you have any experience in working out with your clients and, in a sense, of having one of your clients had the difficulty of transforming completely his communication style to a more appealing way for their own audience? Did you have any experience in working with clients?

Dr Michael Gerharz: 40:48

Well, I think that most of my clients come to me at a point where they've discovered for themselves that, well, well, there's a bigger impact to make sure, and there might be, they might be more to explore. So it's not that I will come to you and try to persuade you that you need to kind of shift your entire perspective. But of course, that happens that you come to me because you think that your presentation needs more bang and needs to wow your audience more, and then I, of course, be willing to engage with you on that. And, yeah, okay, what is it? What is more bang for you, what is more wow for you? And and what do you hope to achieve with that wow? And then we will start probably working on that.

Dr Michael Gerharz: 41:47

Sure, but what sooner or later happens for most of my clients is that they realize that it might not be about wowing your audience at all, that wow is only ever kind of the first step that opens your audience's mind to be willing to engage more, but that your ultimate goal might be the aha effect, that you bring them and lead them to a profound aha moment.

Dr Michael Gerharz: 42:15

And so the moment that you realize that changes a lot for your approach and your view and perspective on public speaking or communication in general.

Dr Michael Gerharz: 42:26

Because the moment you realize that it's not about wowing them, that this is only ever the prerequisite for leading them to the aha, that it's much more about the aha. It means that it's an aha for the audience because you know everything already right. It's an aha for the audience. So it's not really about impressing them but about being helpful. And that in turn means that you can step you can comfortably step off the hero's pedestal because you're not there to get your audience to cheer for you. You're there to lead them to a profound insight that leads them to feel a little proud and to having seen that new insight on that field that they didn't even thought think that would interest them. And so to just step off the hero's pedestal and leave that to your audience, because you've tapped into their curious minds and helped them figure out and see something and grow through the things that you've told them, and that is certainly a profound shift for several of my clients.

Luis Maia: 43:33

So what's the high effect? How do you develop it?

Dr Michael Gerharz: 43:40

Well, as I tend to see it, the whole point of a presentation is to make your audience see something that they didn't see before. Right, and hopefully in a profound way, because if it's just an easy announcement, that's not difficult to explain. Why not just send a simple email or write a short memo about it? So the whole point of making a presentation or preparing a larger piece of communication is to make your audience see something that they didn't see before, and that means a couple of steps that are immediately derived from that. First of all, of course, you need clarity about what is that actually. What do I need them to see? And you'd be surprised to learn how few people not exclusively, but particularly in the science community wouldn't be able to say that, to give a concise answer to that.

Dr Michael Gerharz: 44:48

So what is it that you'd actually want your audience to see? And once you've nailed that, or have clarity for yourself what that is, you can ask the second question so why don't they see it already? What do they see? What do they see that I don't? And what do they miss that I see already? And once you have that, you can kind of build a path between those two points, between those two points and the ultimate goal of a presentation is to lead them to what I would call the point of no return, which would probably coincide with that aha moment where you've told them everything that helps them really see what you wanted to make them see, where there is no coming back. No going back for them because they've seen it in a way that they cannot unsee it anymore and where it makes total sense because you've explained it in a way that makes sense, using words that they can understand, using images and metaphors that they are familiar with.

Luis Maia: 45:56

Yes, something that is more Exactly, it's something that they, they are familiar with. Yes, something that is more Exactly, it's something that they are more familiar with, something that is more common, as they've seen, whether on TV or on YouTube, something, in a sense it's more of a touristic point of view. It's kind of like when they go to, when they go to an event, they're attending a guest, a speaker, and you feel like they I mean, I'm a tourist here and I want to hear what you have to say and then something comes up and they say something that sparks them. I say, aha, that's what I want to know, and so, basically, basically, that is a yeah, that is a great, great approach and that is a great approach and that is so starkly different to what most people do.

Dr Michael Gerharz: 46:42

So most people, when I ask them how they would go about preparing a presentation, they tell me similar things. First of all, they start with a presentation that they've already given a couple of weeks ago, and then they fill up all the other details that have come up since ago, and then they fill up all the other details that have come up since and so until they discover whoa, that's way too much information for 25 minutes, um, so, and then they start cutting and it's still too much, um and and so, basically they they have that problem of overwhelming their audience because there are so many things that are interested and interesting and great and and fascinating about my field, which makes sense. I mean, you're doing a PhD about it, you're researching five years on it. Of course, there's more things, more interesting things to say about it than you've got time to say.

Luis Maia: 47:28

Yes.

Dr Michael Gerharz: 47:29

But that approach that you've outlined is a very different approach, where you basically turn that upside down and you don't even bother about all the things that you can say, but only ask yourself what is that one thing that makes that tourist look over, come closer and think to themselves well, that is interesting. I want to know more about that. And so, getting clear and starting there, so what is that one thing and often it's really literally one thing only what is that one thing that sparks that curiosity that then allows me to tell them about a second thing that again sparks some questions for them and some curiosity, which then allows me to speak about a third and a fourth thing. And so suddenly I have a path that leads them from where they are something that makes them curious to where I want them to get, to see what I need them to see.

Luis Maia: 48:32

And also comes with storytelling and also managing the time that they have. Many of us, we have plenty of information that we want to spread, because obviously it's our passion to spread that, to share that information for the audience, but at the same time, there's little time to share with it. I'd say, for example, in events where the speaker has 20 minutes to speak, that time goes completely fast and the own goal that most of those speakers have is to okay, I have this, I've set it up, I've rehearsed and I'm jotting everything that I know. And then what? If they heard, they heard. If they didn't, I don't really care. As we were talking previously of focusing too much and not trying to, in a sense of giving emphasis to the audience what they actually really want, and so going sometimes off script and asking questions and including the storytelling could be really interesting to make that aha effect to the point of no return effect as well.

Dr Michael Gerharz: 49:55

Yeah, and there's an interesting dynamic here, right? Yes, um, um, because I bet that if you ask your colleagues, at least 90 of them would be afraid of taking that approach. Sure, um, because what if I don't know the answer to that question? What if that it's an ill-meaning question, if they want to attack me, or things like that. But I think that that fear often comes from kind of the same shift in perspective that we spoke about earlier, that this comes from a position where I approach presentations as an opportunity to impress people, to show them how brilliant I am as a researcher or how brilliant my theory is. When that's not the case at all, no one shows up to listen to you because they think they need another brilliant hero in their life. Sure, because they are brilliant themselves and they know that.

Dr Michael Gerharz: 51:03

And I take any bet that 90% of the people in the audience think they're smarter than you.

Dr Michael Gerharz: 51:09

And so the much more appropriate approach, or the much more helpful approach for both sides actually is to not even bother with impressing them, but to just be helpful, because, I mean, you've spent two years, three years, sometimes five years, looking into those things, researching, look, picking up every stone, looking behind every corner.

Dr Michael Gerharz: 51:36

I mean, who in that audience would know more about that than you?

Dr Michael Gerharz: 51:41

Um, and so just making use of that, that realization that you're not there to impress them or to give the impression that you would have looked under every stone, but just letting them know what you saw under the stones, that you did look under and the things that you did find out yet and the things that might give them a pause because it gave you a pause yet but that might still need to be figured out and taking the questions from the audience as another opportunity to just understand deeper for yourself but also us together, where that leads us, where that leads us, that might help to alleviate that fear that that well, well, I mean honestly, um, in most occasions, who wants to fail you? Um, when they're sitting in the audience, right, they have to sit there for 30 minutes listening to you. I'd rather have you succeed than fail, right? So I'm most mostly on your side and just just well, using that dynamic that the questions that the audience might be asking might be in our all together, our best interest.

Luis Maia: 53:00

That's a very helpful, of course, and I think here, in all fairness, I think it's time to practice, listen to speakers that have a different approach, not a robotic thing, but rather something outside of the box basically that sparks people, that sparks their interests in hearing of what you really are about to say, what you're really going to say, and I think, both in universities and after universities, that has to continue to going on with time, patience and also experience, which is the most factor here, but at the same time, is the practice and listening to other people that want to make a different approach.

Luis Maia: 53:59

And one thing that I've checked on was your podcast, the Irresistible Communication. You have two minutes, say two minutes, and I think you also said no bullshit guide on how to be the legendary speaker, in a sense, and one of the things that I was really interested in hearing, those tiny and precision two minutes speaking of good content. That is something completely different from podcast sessions that have half an hour, one hour, 45 minutes or even three hours, like in Joe Rogan style, basically. So what that led to, how your podcast project come about and why two-minute communication podcast sessions are rather effective on your on your site, besides having the interviews that you had already um, yeah, I mean basically you, you've outlined it already, right.

Dr Michael Gerharz: 55:09

I mean there's no, there's no shortage on long-form podcasts. We've got enough conversation style podcasts. We've got enough tutorial style podcasts.

Dr Michael Gerharz: 55:21

We've got enough rambling thoughts podcasts yes but there's but on the other hand there's not a ton of kind of short, concise, succinct podcasts that probably just fit in the two minutes that you have waiting for the bus or that you've got left before heading into your next meeting. And then, of course so that was a niche where I thought that I could raise a voice in a way that we don't have an abundance of yet. So it's a place where there's actually an opportunity to still make a difference without just putting out yet another podcast. And then, of course, my intention isn't to exhaust any of the topics that I touch on in any of the episodes, so I'm not publishing the episodes, hoping that this would be to refer to what we spoke about earlier, to be completely correct about everything that there is to say about that topic.

Dr Michael Gerharz: 56:32

My intention is more like to give you a pause, to speak about things that gave me a pause that I thought would be worth thinking more about, that would be worth paying attention to in your next communication, in your next presentation, in your next meeting or discussion negotiation, and to just pay attention to one little thing and that's something that's always doable, right, that's something that we can always do to pay attention to one nuance and get more conscious about what we do in respect with regards to that particular nuance and probably change a thing or two if we think it makes sense, or just well, dismiss it if we think that's not applicable to us. And that's kind of the thinking behind my podcast To give you that pause in a way that I hope has a chance of making an impact in people's lives. And if you listen to a couple of those episodes, it might even lead you to a profound shift in the way that you communicate.

Luis Maia: 57:42

Sure, I was hearing a few of them before meeting you and it's really interesting, and also for me it's also impactful in a sense of okay, this might be some key aspects that I want to improve, but don't know how I'm going to respond to it. So I went to check on plenty of them, because two minutes go fast and I'd say I went to your website and check on the list, okay, so I've listened to all your sessions and there's a check mark. Okay, now what's next? What is the next one? And for me it's been really helpful because then I will update myself to trying to accommodate even more, trying to find some different ways of approaching people, whether it is on an event setting, when I'm speaking towards an audience, or on a daily life.

Luis Maia: 58:45

And I think that also will reflect upon time and practice, experience and patience, time and practice, experience and patience. And so nowadays, information goes so fast and we receive tons, tons, tons of information that we don't know where to grab from and we just grab a handful, but paying attention to something that they might miss or it's something that is really interesting to me, to me, sorry to the person then those tiny, tiny, tiny, those small minutes then might make the difference. Don't know. If you check on the impact of your audience when they listen to it, do you feel any sort of difference? Do you feel anything that uh makes you uh joyful in that sense?

Dr Michael Gerharz: 59:40

don't know if the question was well delivered um, I mean yeah, of course, um what makes?

Dr Michael Gerharz: 59:47

me proud what makes me proud is when I get messages from readers or readers of my blog or listeners to the podcast, sharing with me an anecdote of how that made a difference in this or that occasion. This week, someone shared with me that they used Chet GPT's custom instructions option to ask Chet GPT for his responses, to give them in a communication style that's in line with Dr Michael Garage's style, and that was really well something for me. So they felt that this was something worth emulating and striving for.

Luis Maia: 1:00:42

And that really makes me proud. Yeah, do you reckon also that, since now you've touched upon the chat GPT, do you reckon as well this AI tool will be helpful 100%? So in the sense of, for example, I want to check something on child GPT but I'm going to rely 100% on the tool and say, give me a tool that can be effective, but on the other hand it might not be. So that could be something a contradiction around here.

Dr Michael Gerharz: 1:01:19

I don't know. I mean, we're speaking to PhDs here or PhD students here, so I would assume that your audience is really capable of critical thinking, right and so that, just as they wouldn't 100% trust any paper that they read that's gone through a double-blind review process and being published in a reputable journal or at a conference, they wouldn't even trust that paper. So why would they trust any kind of internet engine? So I'm not sure that that's a problem, but there's certainly a lot of good uses where that's not even even the the biggest concern. Um, speaking to one of the things that we touched upon earlier, where and where many scientists often struggle to find kind of more relatable language metaphors and anecdotes, that is a that that excuse is. Well, it's an excuse, it's become an excuse, it always was, but it's just another word of.

Dr Michael Gerharz: 1:02:41

I'm lazy and not even willing to launch ChetGPT, because if you cannot find good metaphors or translations, that is something that Chetet GPT excels at, so just ask them.

Dr Michael Gerharz: 1:03:04

So I'm going to speak to a group of ninth graders who I know all play Fortnite. So what could be five metaphors that this group is familiar with to speak about these hebrew letters that that I'm researching, or to explain the routing algorithm that I was researching, or whatever your field is. So that is a question that is very easy to ask, that does not require a lot of creative thinking and it's just for free, and it might not be a perfect answer and you might not be happy with the responses that you get, but it at least gets you thinking and you can at least inquire deeper and ask why is that not really exactly what? What? What would I need to to tweak so that it is a good fit? Or what would I need? How could I modify the prompt in a way that I get more appropriate? Um, because maybe I didn't get the audience right or maybe I explained my topic not exactly right. So there's a huge potential, especially for scientific presentations, to find more relatable languages?

Luis Maia: 1:04:36

Sure thing, with AI being another dangerous tool to consult any doubts that we have, especially when trying to communicate our scientific research to an audience. And then one of the things they might do is provide me X, y and Z and they give you a list of options and then choosing the right one, but not entirely sure. But at the same time they get okay, this is the answer. Then I'm going to practice. But how about, as you touched, have you touched? Having the critical thinking which is so important in our lives? Does this really fit? Does this fit? Will this be really engaging? So why not asking again chat GPT you've said this here on your answer. So how about on the other side? Will it be really helpful? And then chat GPT might give you another answer, but probably a more positive one. And then, upon your decision, then you will rely on it, but also based on your own skills, not just relying on the chat GPT at 100% per se. So using that tool and then using your own core expertise and trying to practice and speaking, delivering that speech to an audience that will engage with you as long as you do your homework, basically, as we said earlier. So I think the ChatGPT is a resourceful tool for effective communication, but at the same time, it comes as well with our inner self to having the criticism to apply that tool in a positive way.

Luis Maia: 1:06:31

So one thing I'd like also to ask to you is this scenario activity question. So you've probably heard about Toastmasters, right? Yeah, certainly so. This is an event that I was recently keen on it to investigate, but I'd like to ask you about seeing yourself at a Toastmasters event. And then you need to share your PhD research with an audience that obviously has no background in your field, and your challenge is to transform your complex findings into a captivating story that not only educates but also resonates deeply within them. Then how would you use your storytelling skills to ensure your audience feels both heard and intrigued by the power of your words?

Dr Michael Gerharz: 1:07:26

Very good question. I like it very much because Toastmasters is actually something that is, an organization that I recommend very often to people who say that they struggle with communication or even stage fright, and it's a very forthcoming, positive community that I cannot recommend highly enough and anxiety as well, anxiety as well.

Luis Maia: 1:07:49

Yeah, yeah, finally enough. So thanks for bringing that up, anxiety as well.

Dr Michael Gerharz: 1:07:52

Yeah yeah. What makes that question a bit hard for me is that I did my PhD in the tech field a very fast moving field at a time that was very different from today. Wi-fi was a new thing back then and the iPhone wasn't even on the horizon. Nokia was the dominating manufacturer, so it was a very different field than I was doing. My PhD was in the field of mobile communication, which looked very differently than it looks today, looked very differently than it looks today, and that means that the research that I did was also targeted for that world that existed back then. But I'd argue that. So I would probably invite you on a situation that you would rather not like to be in Like during the time I did my PhD.

Dr Michael Gerharz: 1:09:01

I recall that Hurricane Katrina hit the southeastern coast of the United States right, and that was a huge disaster for that area. It devastated huge parts of the infrastructure, including large parts of the mobile phone infrastructure, which is a big trouble in devastated areas where you struggle to find people who might need your help and where the helping forces might need to be in danger themselves and need to rely on communication. So what do you do in those fields when you cannot rely on a mobile phone infrastructure to just work and to just be available. So that's when you'll be happy that a technology like ad hoc networks exists, and that's when you'll be glad when the networks that you build there in an ad hoc fashion are reasonably stable and you can rely on connections that are established in an ad hoc fashion remain available for a reasonable amount of time, at least long enough to make the data exchanges or to exchange short messages. So that will probably be the story that I'd be sharing there.

Luis Maia: 1:10:29

Sure, and I would definitely assure that your audience would be amazed with your storytelling and say, aha, I want to hear this. And then I want to hear more, so that more aha effects will come in the process and say, no, now there's no point in return. And then I will tell you more.

Dr Michael Gerharz: 1:10:49

Yeah, I hope so, thanks.

Luis Maia: 1:10:55

So let's wrap it up here, our session, and first. So what advice do you have to share about anyone who wants to go for a PhD and for PhDs to take their maximum effort in developing effective communication to take?

Dr Michael Gerharz: 1:11:13

their maximum effort in developing effective communication, trying to bring both together.

Dr Michael Gerharz: 1:11:26

I recommend to not consider the communication of your research separate from your research, to not look at it as an afterthought First you do the research, then you communicate it but to use the power of communication, of good communication, as your guide as you progress and try, as early as possible, to find plain and simple words to explain what it is that you're trying to achieve with your PhD, finding words that you can explain it to the people outside of your office and your immediate lab neighbors in a way that even your friends, your school time friends, could understand what you do, if not your family, who has no background in academia at all. So to use communication as a feedback loop, because you will discover that the better you can describe what it is that you're trying to achieve and the better you can explain how what you did in your research actually contributes to that goal, the better the actual research will become, because it becomes more conscious, more guided and more directed towards something that you can express why it actually makes sense.

Luis Maia: 1:12:58

Right. So, for the listeners here, just make sure to practice from the start your communication skills in PhD and using what Dr Michael here has shared with us to excel yourself and to stand out from other PhDs and take your best shot in developing effectively your communication, whether in an audience or with your family even your with your supervisor as well, which is the most the person that you are spending most time with, in a sense. So, uh, so, dr michaels, uh, any other future projects that that you are working on? I've also saw that you have, uh, one book already published and another book coming coming up soon. So, uh, what would you like to share with us? Any social media as well?

Dr Michael Gerharz: 1:14:01

yeah, um, so my new, my new book is coming out in october. It's called the path to strategic impact, because that that's something that I see way too often, that there is that brilliant vision that that businesses have probably also applicable to science, where you have the, the vision of that, of exploring that field. You might even have a good strategy of how you want to go about it. But, but well, that that book is tailored to, to businesses. Certainly, what often happens is that once the strategy is there, no one really knows what it means, right?

Dr Michael Gerharz: 1:14:35

You might hire a marketing agency to come up with a fancy sounding mission statement, but no one knows what these fancy words actually mean in a deeper sense. Or you have that bunch of PowerPoint documents about strategy that no one really reads and no one knows what it actually means for the choices they need to make each and every day. And it's a book where I try to give you a simple checklist of four principles the path principles plain and simple, actionable, transformative and heartfelt. And if your communication checks those four boxes, then your strategy might have a good chance of of getting actually executed in in every day. So that's coming out first of october. Um, and yeah, besides that, I'm still continuing to write my daily blog, the art of communicating, which you'll find on my website, michaelgerhardscom g-e-r-h-a-r. On my website, michaelgerhardscom G-E-R-H-A-R-Z One word, michaelgerhardscom. You'll also find pointers to the podcast and to all the free downloads that you mentioned during the conversation. Just head over there and feel free to connect with me on LinkedIn or Instagram. I'd love to follow your journey.

Luis Maia: 1:15:46

All right, and now I'll make sure as well myself, to follow you on Instagram and, for the audience, make sure to follow Dr Michael. That it will be very helpful, and if you also have a podcast on your own about communication, then Dr Michael will be an incredible guest for you to share his insights about effective communication. So let's wrap up. So, dr Michael, thank you so much for being my guest and for having your time to come to the podcast, and I hope to speak to you soon then.

Dr Michael Gerharz: 1:16:25

So thank you very much. It's been a pleasure. Thanks for having me.

Luis Maia: 1:16:28

Thank you so much, and that was the absolutely excellent late night talk with the brilliant Dr Michael Gerhas. His different approaches to communicating effectively in public, such as the aha and no point in return effects with any individual at a coffee shop or during a school class or during a conference with large audiences and what the audience really wants to hear, are truly invaluable. Throughout and after graduating as PhDs, it provides us with some truly helpful insights that will help us to deliver better communication to a range of audiences who do not know about our topic and what a PhD means. The amazing thing about effective words and simple communication, like the aha effect and no point in return, is that it makes communication in a public setting so much more incredible when we focus on what we have to improve while practicing this fantastic skill with patience and discipline. So thank you, dr Michael Gerhars, for sharing your work and for providing your approach and also sharing about your Irresistible Communication podcast with your Two Minutes and no Bullshit Guide concept against providing longest hours.

Luis Maia: 1:17:50

Regarding tutorials on how to communicate effectively in public, you can hear Gerhard's podcast on your favorite podcast platforms, follow his social media and his website and you can even book a one-to-one appointment with him to improve your communication. All these details will be provided in the description. If you have tuned in throughout this late night interview, you are more than welcome to make a donation or follow the website phdloungecouk, where you can also find my socials Facebook PhDPodLounge, instagram at PhDLMF and X at PhDLoungeCast. Thank you all for tuning in. It has been a pleasure, thank you.