Navigating Men's Mental Health and Emotional Expression with Jem Fuller

What if you could transform your communication skills and foster deeper, more meaningful relationships? Join us as we welcome Jem Fuller, the brilliant mind behind "The Art of Conscious Communication for Thoughtful Men." Jem’s journey, from dynamic leadership coaching to the mesmerizing world of fire dancing, offers a unique lens on bridging cultural divides and creating authentic connections. His insights into making things commonly understood remind us that true communication transcends boundaries.

We navigate the often tricky waters of ego and open-minded communication. Jem and I dissect how our beliefs intertwine with our identity and the defensive reactions that often follow when challenged. We also explore the critical issues surrounding men's mental health and societal expectations of masculinity. Jem shows why vulnerability is often seen as a weakness and how this perception hinders men from seeking help. From the struggles of military veterans to young men hesitant to express their emotions, we uncover strategies to foster open communication and community support. Tune in to understand the profound impact of communication on mental well-being and discover practical advice for navigating those tough but essential conversations.

Visit Jem's website to learn more: https://jemfuller.com/books/

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Book on relationships written by the podcast host, Jennifer Furlong.

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Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:07

Welcome to the Communication 24-7 podcast, where we communicate about how we communicate. I'm your host, jennifer Furlong. Well, I feel like I want to introduce this episode as welcome to the Jen and Jem show, because I'm Jen Furlong and I have my guest here, which is Jem Fuller, and so I'm super excited about having my next guest on the show. This is a much different topic. We're able to focus in on a very specific aspect of communication, which I don't get the opportunity to do very often. I've had a lot of wonderful guests on this show and, of course, it's always centered on the area of communication, but today I want to focus in specifically on men and communication, and so my next guest. He is the author of the book the Art of Conscious Communication for Thoughtful Men, so I am eager to do a deep dive into your thought process. What made you want to write this book? What are some interesting finds that you that you discovered while writing this book? Jem, thank you for being on the show and welcome.

Speaker 2: 1:30

Thank you so much for having me on your show, jen, and it's nice seeing your name, because autocorrect corrects my name to be your name. So so much of my typed communication coming to me through text messages or emails. People refer to me as Jen, so there you go.

Speaker 1: 1:47

I'll do my best not to make that mistake.

Speaker 2: 1:48

Yes, I don't, I really, I really don't mind, I don't mind. Yeah, thanks for having me on your show. I've been looking forward to this conversation.

Speaker 1: 1:57

Yeah, I think it's going to be a fun conversation and I think it's going to be a very meaningful conversation, which is, of course, the most important thing. So, for our listeners, who may not be familiar with your work or your background, do you mind just introducing yourself?

Speaker 2: 2:11

Yeah, sure. So starting from the present moment and working backwards, I guess I currently work as a leadership coach and I help leaders create healthier cultures in their workplaces. That's the bread and butter work that I do. But my partner and I also run self-discovery retreats in the Himalayan mountains, in India and Bali and here in Australia. We love that part of our work. We've got four I was about to say four teenagers, but we've got a 20-year-old, 18, 17 and 15-year-old, so we have a busy household. Year old, so we have a busy household.

Speaker 2: 2:48

We live down here on on part of the southern coast of Australia in a little surf town. So lots of nature, surfing, hiking, that sort of thing. And then the background goes. I've been running my own coaching consultancy for 12 years now, and prior to that was working as a senior leader in a multinational travel company. But prior to that was very colorful all around the world, doing everything from kindergarten teaching in Taiwan to fire dancing and tattooing, motorcycle courier, volunteer in third world countries, a laborer, a corporate leader so many different things.

Speaker 2: 3:20

I still kind of scratch my head as to how I fit it all in, but it really was me pursuing my, my passion to immerse myself into foreign culture. So I spent the best part of a decade traveling around the world and really, you know, I just had this insatiable thirst to try and get into cultures that were so different to where I grew up in Australia, you know, in terms of the language and the food and the religion or the spirituality, or you know just the whole thing and that was fascinating for me. And now, as a you know, I'm in my fifties now and the work that I do is really around cross-cultural connection and hence the communication piece, and I look back now and it all makes sense, it all kind of fits together and I understand why I spent so many years in foreign lands.

Speaker 1: 4:07

Yeah, I very much appreciate that varied background and I think one of the things that the through line and all of those experiences which, by the way, when I was reading your bio, I was like this is really cool. I mean, hello, fire dancer, traditional tattooist, kindergarten teacher, what's going on here?

Speaker 1: 4:25

But, I think, for those of us who genuinely enjoy this thing we call communication and just reaching out and getting different perspectives and just learning from others, every experience that you have, I'm sure you're able to draw from that experience and then build onto that experience all the way up to what you're doing today with coaching and working with organizations and, I'm sure, individuals you know, helping them build their communication skills as well. I'm curious what are some of those things, that those qualities that you think you were able to take from those less common experience like the fire dancing. What are some? What are some of those qualities in that particular experience? I'm sure you're able to draw from some things that you can think back on now and be able to make those connections of wow. That is something that I experienced as a fire dancer and it's absolutely applicable to being a good communicator these days, reaching out and being able to have an authentic conversation with someone.

Speaker 2: 5:38

Yeah, look, I think to use that example of fire dancing, no matter where I was throwing fire around, whether I was fire dancing in Asia or Europe or Australia, matter where I was throwing fire around, whether I was fire dancing in Asia or Europe or Australia, or wherever I was doing it people loved it.

Speaker 2: 5:54

And so we have these commonalities, us humans. You don't have to peel back the layers too far to realise that we have things in common, and this translates directly to communication. The root of the word communication comes from the Latin communicatio, which means a sharing, and the verb communicare, which means to make common. So communication is to make something commonly understood. What do we have in common? How can we come to an understanding of each other?

Speaker 2: 6:25

That's what communication is, and so, especially when communication is tricky or being tested in some way because there are two different people or groups of people that have different ideas about something, the best place to start is what do we have in common? Let's start with what we've got in common, you know, and then we can explore. Once we've created that connection over something in common, then we can explore the diversity of our different ideas or our different backgrounds or our different ways. We think the company should move forward, you know, but I think I think that's the through thread is that, you know, we we've got so much in common, us people, and quite often, when people are shouting at each other across those digital divides of difference on social media, you know, and whether someone ideologically is different.

Speaker 2: 7:12

So you might have pro-life or pro-choice, or pro-vax or anti-vax, or you might have a different religious idea or political idea. These people are shouting at each other. There's a lot of fear that they have this fear of difference so that person over there is different to me. I don't even know that person. We haven't even sat down and broken bread together yeah yeah, but I fear them.

Speaker 2: 7:35

So I'm going to try, and so I react aggressively. That's what people do and I think to to. You know, I remember this story, jen, when I was back in the 90s, I was backpacking through Pakistan 1998, actually it was and I was up in the remote northwestern regions of Pakistan, up in the northwestern frontier province, if your listeners remember this. But back in 1998, we think it was Osama bin Laden sent cruise missiles or bombed a US embassy in Africa right and then claimed it, and that was the start of the unrest between them and the US. And then the US sent cruise missiles into Pakistan to try and kill Osama bin Laden. They didn't get him, but they did kill locals. Anyway, that's when jihad was declared.

Speaker 2: 8:27

I was sitting on a bus in remote North Pakistan, a local bus. I was the only foreigner on the bus and I was sitting next to a young Pakistani university student and he had the newspaper with me and he was translating the newspaper into English for me and he was saying jihad has been declared. This was in 1998. Yeah, so a couple of years before 9-11.

Speaker 2: 8:48

Anyway, I had a wonderful conversation with this young man because we were talking about he spoke English, because he was a university student, and we were talking about how neither of us were invested in, in our corresponding countries, political political parties we didn't agree with he didn't agree with, you know the extremist Islamic State. He was quite a modest, mild Pakistani boy who just grew up in a town and was going to university and I was apolitical, I was anti-establishment. Actually at the time I was outside of the whole thing and we were having this conversation and he said to me he said, gem, if I cut your skin here and I cut my skin here, we have the same color blood. Yeah, he said, despite the color of our skin, we have the same color blood. And he looked at me in the eyes beautifully and he said you and me, we are the same he said, and it was just such a poignant moment that I remember, and it was beautiful.

Speaker 2: 9:47

I felt deeply connected to this person who had grown up in a completely different environment to me, surrounded by completely different ideas around life and death and what it all means. But we only had to peel back the layer that much to realise that we actually share a lot in common. And we all need food and water, we all need shelter, we all care about our children, we all grieve when a loved one dies all of us and anyway. So I'm a bit of a hippie at heart and I think that if we can improve our communication and our ability to connect and understand each other, the world would become a better place.

Speaker 1: 10:24

Our ability to connect and understand each other, the world would become a better place. Yeah, I love that story, and your reference to starting with what we have in common is so incredibly important in communication.

Speaker 1: 10:33

I think a lot of the times when we are communicating with someone, we're perceiving to be different from ourselves, and I use the word perceiving because we already have all of these notions of what we think about that person based on the very little bit of information that we have on them.

Speaker 1: 10:51

And so, if we do take the opportunity to have a conversation, dig a little deeper. Yes, we're not going to agree on everything. That's impossible, possible. Even people you grow up with, friends, family, even people who are ideologically the same as you, you're going to have differences of opinion on various topics.

Speaker 1: 11:13

So if you have that desire and willingness to just have that conversation and listen, that does not mean you have to agree with them, by the way. It just means you know, listen to try to understand their perspective, and even after that you may not still understand their perspective, but at least it's a start to that conversation. So many of us are afraid to do that or just unwilling to do that. In all of the conversations that you've had with so many different people from across the world, so many different cultures that you've been able to just interact with, do you find that that is something unique to us in the United States or, you know, in in Australia, or do you think this is something that's worldwide is? Have you viewed a difference in how people are willing to accept a different point of view or at least being willing to listen to a different point of view.

Speaker 2: 12:20

Look, I'm sure there are cultural trends which I haven't studied through data, but I do know that humans this is another thing we have in common we all have a sense of identity. We all have a sense of who I think I am. That's right, all of us, and it doesn't matter whether you're in China or Africa, or Asia, or the US or Australia, or Africa or Asia, or the US or Australia. We all have a sense of being an individual entity. And what happens is that when our ideas are challenged, we've, very literally, we've assimilated our ideas, especially our ideological or political or religious beliefs.

Speaker 2: 13:04

We've assimilated them as a part of our sense of identity that's right and we get very, very our ego, our sense of identity gets very, very defensive when it's challenged, because to the ego, if the ego is challenged, it's akin to real life and death. The ego believes that it's actually in danger of of death when it's not you know, you can have a death of ego.

Speaker 2: 13:28

You can have an identity crisis. I'm speaking firsthand here because I've had them. You can have an identity crisis and you still live. You still wake up, breathing, in fact. It's an opportunity to re-identify, to, to upgrade the software, so to speak, and develop, hopefully, an improved version of who you think you are. But anyway, to the ego, it's real life and death. So when someone challenges your ideas or your beliefs, that's why we get super defensive.

Speaker 2: 13:56

When you're defensive, you're not listening, you're not able to listen, you're not seeking to understand the other person's point of view, because you're too busy trying to defend yours right and so I think part of the practice of better communication, more conscious communication, is the practice of realizing that you can just loosen your grip a little bit on how you think things should be.

Speaker 2: 14:17

It's just relax your grip a little bit because maybe there might be other ways.

Speaker 2: 14:21

And, like you said, jen, when you really come to a place of curiosity as to where the other person's coming from and you really lean in and seek to understand, that doesn't mean that you have to agree with them at the end of it, and you might not completely understand them either. But the practice of seeking to understand means that you're loosening your grip a little bit on how you think things should be and who. You think you are right, and I think that's a healthy thing to do, because then we can expand our consciousness, then we can be open to learning and growth and re-identification and the world, like your experience in the world, becomes easier. It just does yeah, um, so, so. So I think the practice of more conscious communication, which is being more aware of the communication itself and less defensive, is actually quite a spiritual practice. Insert here whatever word works for you. If you're not a spiritual person, call it whatever you want to call it, but for me it's quite a spiritual practice.

Speaker 1: 15:56

Got a burning question about communication or do you want to hear more about a specific topic? Well, send it our way. Email us at info at communication247.com and you just might hear your question on a future episode of Communication 24-7. Let's communicate about how we communicate. Of Communication 24-7. Let's communicate about how we communicate.

Speaker 1: 16:24

Yeah, I think one of the things that makes it easy for individuals to keep up that wall when we're communicating with someone that we perceive to be different from ourselves is it makes it easier, if I don't know that much about you, it makes it easier for me to be able to pretend that you must be my enemy in some way or you're so different from me that there's just no way we're going to have something in common.

Speaker 1: 16:50

I've held a lot of different positions within the communication field and some of them within. You know it touches on politics. You know, as a media analyst and speaking to other media analysts, when you're reading the news and talking about some really difficult having some really difficult conversations about tough topics, about tough topics, when you have those conversations and you try to seek to understand where the other person is coming from, you begin to again not agree with them because you know you're so politically misaligned that you're not going to agree with them. But to be able to just understand, okay, I don't agree with you, but I get that point that you made right there.

Speaker 1: 17:36

I understand that one point that you just made and I just I learned something new about this situation or that organization, or I learned something new about you as a person. You're becoming more human at that point. You're becoming more, more connected at that point. You're becoming more connected at that point and it makes it much more difficult to view that person as an enemy, to view that person as someone who is just so at odds with you that there's absolutely no way to ever have anything in common with them.

Speaker 1: 18:07

And so I try to encourage people to have those conversations and to be open with those conversations and understand no, you do not have to reach an agreement, but just maybe you might see them as a human being a little bit more and it might make it easier to even have more conversations down the road. Yeah, so I'm just, I'm just so excited to hear someone else be able to express to my listeners that it how important it is to just be open to those different perceptions and and yeah, it's not going to be an end to your ego, I promise you.

Speaker 2: 18:47

No, no, no, no. Our ego will always be with us. That's completely fine, but by by developing an expanded awareness of our ego. And when our ego is driving the bus, just to be more aware of that means that the ego is less able to drive the runaway bus and our ego is necessarily defensive and reactive. When, even when you're sitting on your own and you're scrolling through social media, and the algorithms put some clickbait in front of you, something to enrage you or upset you or make you go, no, you know the part of you that reacts immediately and just goes no, that's so wrong, that's, that's your ego yes well, um, your sense of identity getting super defensive.

Speaker 2: 19:31

And just notice it, just call it out and go oh wow, look at you jumping straight in there, ego to defend. And how about if we pause and take a breath? Yes and literally loosen your grip a little bit and consider alternative perspective. Just consider them. I'm not saying you have to go and change your religion or change your spiritual beliefs, or or maybe you, maybe they expand a little bit your ways of seeing things, but just the practice of pausing and considering alternative perspectives, that's a healthy practice in itself.

Speaker 2: 20:06

This is a practice of open-mindedness you know, so the next time you're scrolling and you see something that makes you go no, or something that makes you go yes, something that makes you react strongly, immediately, yeah, put the phone down, take a breath, notice yourself and then just consider alternative perspectives. You know, I, I, I know that sounds very simple, but I think it's a really healthy practice oh it's, it's such an important practice.

Speaker 1: 20:37

I say respond, don't react.

Speaker 1: 20:40

And I think it's very similar to what you're saying is hit that pause button and acknowledge how it's making you feel. Think about how your emotions are impacting not only your ability to receive that message, but now it's impacting how are you going to send out a message? What is going to immediately follow with your emotions? And I think, at the same time, if you're having a conversation with someone else and let's say it's not social media you're reacting to, but it's someone else, you're having a conversation with someone else and let's say it's not social media you're reacting to, but it's someone else you're having a conversation. They say something that triggers you. You get that emotional response.

Speaker 1: 21:15

That's the time to hit that pause button, acknowledge how this is. This is making me feel a certain kind of way. So how is this impacting my ability to take this message in? And it's impacting how I'm about to say something, but also acknowledge how that other person's emotions are potentially impacting how they are communicating with you. I think that certain awareness can go a long way and you know, and, and, and. Going back to the ego thing, I think not taking yourself so seriously all, the time can go a long way.

Speaker 2: 21:53

A long, long, long way.

Speaker 1: 21:55

Oh, a long way. I have a friend who lives in Philadelphia and I went up there in the fall and so I'm conservative and she's more liberal, so we're on the opposite ends of the political spectrum. We have great conversations, and so when I visited her in the fall, I went to her apartment and she just kind of smiled at me. She was like, let me take you to my office, I want to show you some things. I just hung up on the wall. I'm like, oh, here we go. So we go in there and she has these huge posters of Barack Obama hanging up on the walls.

Speaker 2: 22:33

And.

Speaker 1: 22:33

I just started laughing and she was like I knew you'd appreciate this.

Speaker 2: 22:38

That's awesome.

Speaker 1: 22:39

They're incredible posters. I like to share that story because I think it's just an example of, regardless of your beliefs, your you know your values. When you give someone else an opportunity to be able to build a relationship with you and have conversations and not allow your ego to be in the driver's seat like you were just describing, you can have such a fulfilling relationship with that person to be able to have conversations and even if they push back on you, it is only going to enrich you even further by being able to have conversations.

Speaker 2: 23:23

Yeah, I mean, I love that. What you just said, jen, about you know, not taking yourself so seriously, yeah, it's a key to a happier life. If I meet someone and I ask them how they are and they say, oh, life's pretty heavy and it's all pretty full on, and so I guarantee somewhere in the mix they're taking themselves way too seriously. And the ability to just remember, you know, know, I mean, I I even still love doing this right on a clear night.

Speaker 2: 23:52

Go outside, look up at the milky way in the sky and remember that we're standing on a tiny little speck that is orbiting around a star and we're out on the edge of the milky way and the milky way is a disc shaped galaxy. And we're out on the edge of the Milky Way and the Milky Way is a disc-shaped galaxy. And we're out on the edge of the Milky Way and looking through the Milky Way to remember that to cross from our side of the Milky Way to the other side, traveling at the speed of light, which is 300,000 kilometers I don't know what that is in miles, but 300,000 kilometers a second, all right, every second you're moving 300 000 kilometers.

Speaker 2: 24:28

Traveling that fast, it would still take 120 000 years just to get to the other side of the milky way right, yeah yeah, and the milky way is one of not millions of galaxies that we know of, it's one of billions of galaxies that we know of, right. So the whole thing is massive, massive. And here am I standing down here on little planet Earth, getting all upset because I was stuck in a traffic jam or something, or because somebody called me a name or somebody offended me or something, and I'm getting all serious about it. It's like, oh my Lord, people, can we lighten up?

Speaker 1: 25:03

a little bit, please. A thousand percent. Yes, I am a speck.

Speaker 2: 25:09

Yeah, right, and in a second I'm not going to be here anymore.

Speaker 1: 25:13

That's right.

Speaker 2: 25:14

In two generations I won't even be remembered. My grandkids' kids aren't even going to know who I was. And so why am I taking myself so seriously? And I think that when we lighten up about how important we are as an individual, when we lighten up a little bit and we can laugh at ourselves a little bit, I think that then we're actually even more effective in our mission or our purpose or our service somehow doing good. If you're somebody who's driven to somehow have a positive impact, whether it's just locally, as a member of your family, or whether it's more broadly, whether you want to get out into community and somehow do good work, I think you're more effective in that good work if you lighten up a little bit and don't take yourself so seriously.

Speaker 1: 26:02

Yeah, and you're more apt to be successful in gathering others to your cause. You're going to be more successful in getting supporters, even people who disagree with you.

Speaker 2: 26:19

Yeah, you're more attractive.

Speaker 1: 26:20

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 26:21

When you're a bit lighter, you're certainly more attractive, and I think, also when you lighten up a little bit, because, if you imagine this metaphor, we were talking before about holding on too tightly.

Speaker 2: 26:31

So if you're holding on very tightly to the way you think things are, or to the the path, the journey that you're on to try and be successful in business, say you, you want to be successful in your career or you want to be successful as an entrepreneur, and you're holding on very tightly to the way you think that should go, when the storms come and they come, when the challenges come and they do come, you are more likely to capsize and get get swallowed by the seas of the storm.

Speaker 2: 26:58

If you're holding on too tightly, you need to loosen your grip a little bit and go with the flow, so to speak. You need to be able to. If the winds change direction, you need to be able to harness that change in direction. You need to be able to. If the winds change direction, you need to be able to harness that change in direction. You need to be able to pivot, as everyone was saying during the pandemic, but you do need to be flexible and adaptable and to do that you need to loosen your grip a little bit and lighten up a little bit, and so then, I think, you can harness flow state more easily, and when you're in flow state, you do your best work, you attract the best people, you get the best successes in life. So it's a real metaphor for living not only a good life and a happier life, but a more successful life, I think.

Speaker 1: 27:39

Yeah, that's a fantastic metaphor. I live on the coast of Georgia, in Savannah, georgia, and one of the things that you'll see on the beach posted everywhere you know just be mindful of the tide when the tide when, when you know the the tide comes and goes and we have rip tides and you have to be willing. Everyone, all the locals, know if you get stuck in that rip tide, you're just going to have to be willing to go with, as scary as it is, go with that flow and just it'll take you downstream, it will just just go with it.

Speaker 2: 28:10

You will end up downstream somewhere.

Speaker 1: 28:12

but if you fight against it, you're going to consistently fight, you're going to wear yourself out, and then that's where people end up drowning, because they just can't fight it's. It's not something that you're going to be able to win that fight.

Speaker 1: 28:26

Yeah, I love that metaphor, and I think these are all concepts you know you and I have been having a conversation about that are universal. You know, I think, regardless of your background, regardless of your gender, regardless of your experiences, I think many of us, many of the listeners, can relate to what we're talking about. So I'm curious with the book that you wrote. It looks like you wanted it to specifically either speak to men or speak about men. You know at least what made you want to take that particular focus.

Speaker 2: 29:07

It was actually an idea that was given to me. I started writing the book generally, for everyone, the Art of Conscious Communication. And the reason I started writing the book about communication this is what you and I have in common is that I believe that communication is at the bedrock of our ability to be successful or to live a good life in every aspect of what we do, not only in our relationships, but in our ability to be successful or to live a good life in every aspect of what we do, not only in our relationships, but in our ability to be able to manifest an idea into reality. If you can't communicate the idea, that's just not going to happen. You know, to cross those divides of difference, to harness the power of diversity to for us, you know, it's just, it's fundamental for humanity is communication.

Speaker 2: 29:47

And so I started writing a book generally about communication. And then I engaged a book writing mentor and she said to me Gem, you need to pick an audience, you need to pick a niche to write for, because it's too broad, and she suggested it. She said do you know, I think men could really do with some help around communication. And I thought, yeah, I think, generally speaking, I think you're right. So I some help around communication and I thought, yeah, I think, generally speaking, I think you're right. So I started writing the book for men. I mean, I wrote the book for men and it's interesting because it's mainly women that buy self-development books, not men, and I get a lot of emails from women saying thank you so much for writing the book, I got so much from it and now I just need to try and get my husband or my sons or my brother to read it. Yeah, which which they're doing. So that's interesting.

Speaker 2: 30:29

But I mean, look, I I am quite passionate about men and I'm again, I'm generalizing not every man, but men in general and and specifically in our cultures, the us and australia. But I am passionate about men upgrading their ability to be able to communicate, because I think it's tied into things like violence, you know, our inability to be able to be aware of our emotional feeling state and then communicate and express that as we're going along, rather than it being pent up and pent up and then exploding in anger. In anger, I mean 90, I don't know whether it's 95 or 97% of the world's violence is perpetrated by males, and not only against women, but also men against men. So there's just and I'm I'm a pacifist, I don't think that violence is. I mean, I understand when there's controlled violence in terms of boxing, and that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about uncontrolled violence in the home and in the street. I just think it's so sad and unnecessary and I wish it wasn't happening. And I think a lot of it to do with men is that they don't know how to communicate. So there's that side of things.

Speaker 2: 31:38

But then also, even you know, like the old patriarchal structures that we operate within, not only in the corporate world, but in our government structures and in our societal structures, it's a patriarchal structure which is a structure of dominance. So for me to be successful in a corporate career, I have to climb the ladder, I have to beat the person next to me to get that promotion. So it's a competitive climbing on top of each other to survive and to win system. And I think that system is becoming antiquated and I think that we need to upgrade it and I think we should be having a more feminine style structure which is about us together, like let's raise the tide together, let's be more human centric, more about we rather than about me, and so I think that these are the changes that humanity would benefit from, and to do that we have to be better at communicating. We really do, and so, yeah, so I wrote the book for men and I know it's helping.

Speaker 2: 32:42

I'm getting some really lovely feedback over the last couple of years of how easy it is to read and how immediately applicable the practices are. At end of every chapter there's a practice and people are loving it. And very, very luckily, I published it in australia and I got picked up in the us by an agent gray and miller agency in the states, and they got me a book deal which this year, with mango publishing in miami, florida, and they are we've done the re-edit, we're doing the second edition, they're rebranding it and and doing narrating, the, the audio book, and that's set to be released in august, I believe. And so I've signed a deal with mango publishing in the states which is as, as a young budding author when I say young, I mean young author as a young budding author, it's pretty exciting to have a publishing house pick you up and say we'll publish your books.

Speaker 2: 33:37

So there's that one which is coming out in August, and the book that I'm writing at the moment is called how to have that Conversation. And it's about the conversation, the one that you know you don't want to have, but you want to have, but you think it should be good to have, and that you're scared to have because you don't want to upset the other person. But if you do have that conversation and it goes well, it'll liberate you from this burden you've been carrying. But we kick the can down the road.

Speaker 1: 34:00

It's like oh, I don't know. I don't know how to have that conversation.

Speaker 1: 34:11

And so the book is how to have that conversation. That's what's being written at the moment. If you've read my book Cracking the Rich Code, you know it is chock full of fantastic advice from top thought leaders and super successful entrepreneurs from around the world. How would you like to be a member of an exclusive community that provides that same how-to content from those same leaders? What if you were able to attend member-only live events and interact with them? I'd like to invite you to join the Rich Code Club. It will change the way you think about yourself, your money and your life. It's the only social media platform purely focused on helping you grow. Join the Rich Code Club today for free by clicking on the link in the show notes. Hey, are you liking what you're hearing on the Communication 24-7 podcast? Well, do me a favor and go ahead and follow us and leave a five-star review on your favorite podcast platform. Your support helps us keep the conversation going strong.

Speaker 1: 35:14

Oh, both books so needed, absolutely needed. I think everyone is just so hungry for that, and I'm so glad that your book that's geared toward men has been picked up and is's being published and redone, you know, within the United States, because I just looked at. I pulled it back up because I knew we were having this conversation and it was just last month. It was the American Academy of Medical Colleges, they were talking about men's mental health, and the very first sentence in the article was men in the United States die by a suicide at a rate four times higher than women, and yet men are diagnosed with depression and mood disorders at far lower rates. And then the question was why is this? And I think that's such an important question and I think it ties directly into something that you said regarding men's communication and within our societies and I know you know, especially within the United States we do have this expectation that if you're a man, suck it up.

Speaker 2: 36:23

You know like life sucks right, Life sucks. Yep.

Speaker 1: 36:28

Shit happens.

Speaker 2: 36:32

Yeah, we even tell our boys don't cry like a girl.

Speaker 1: 36:35

Yes, oh, anything you quote like a girl rubs me wrong way.

Speaker 2: 36:41

What a ridiculous thing to say. And and you're right. And because we have created these generations of men who believe that, to be a man, you can't be vulnerable. Vulnerability is a weakness, right? So that's why men are not being diagnosed with depression, because they're suffering alone, in silence, because they don't think that they can tell anyone about it, because that's vulnerability and that's weak.

Speaker 2: 37:01

And then I'm not a real man, and so I might as well just get to the point where I take my life it's really sad. And so I might as well just get to the point where I take my life it's really sad. And to communicate consciously and authentically, there has to be some vulnerability, because you have to be vulnerable and say I'm not great right now, or I'm not feeling, I don't know how I'm feeling about this, or I don't understand you, or I don't have this, I don't have my shit together, don't understand you, or I don't have this, I don't have my shit together. You know, you need to be able to be okay with vulnerability to communicate more effectively, and that's where men struggle with it, I think.

Speaker 1: 37:36

Yeah, and what's so fascinating about that in this? You know, in society's idea of what it is to be a man and you know and to just kind of man up and suck it up. I'm a veteran and so I've had an opportunity to speak with so many veterans who have served in in the military and in all the different branches. I served in the Marine Corps and I have friends and family who served in in so many of the different branches where whether it was Air Force or Army, navy, coast Guard, marine Corps one of the interesting things that I have found in my conversations is the number that the statistics are just out of the roof when you look at the servicemen and women who come home, the rates of depression, the rates of thoughts of suicide, you know, ptsd, all of those things, repeat, is when they get out of the military it can be such a lonely place Like all of a sudden you're not surrounded by your brothers and sisters who you were able to have those conversations with.

Speaker 1: 38:53

You know, especially ones who you you went overseas, you know you were deployed, you went through war together, you experienced some true hardships together, but you were together and they were able to be vulnerable.

Speaker 1: 39:07

They were able to, you know, cry in front of each other and hold each other and tell each other look, we're going to get through this, you know, and have that sense of emotional support, that support system. And then, all of a sudden, when you get out of the military, you're surrounded yeah, you may have family. Then, all of a sudden, when you get out of the military, you're surrounded yeah, you may have family, you may have friends, but you're not able to just really have those conversations with someone who truly understands what it is that you went through, and I have not read any studies on this, but my theory is I think it ties back to exactly what you were talking about is is not being able to have those conversations, to communicate in an authentic way. What am I going through? What am I feeling? How do I feel short? You know, how do I I all of these emotions that that I'm going through? I don't know how to express them, and I know that you're not going to understand what it is that I'm trying to say.

Speaker 1: 40:03

I think there's something there in that you know, and in in the military and have gone through some true horrific hardships, know that the one thing that did help them get survive, that, you know, get through that with one another, was their ability to have people with them. They could communicate in that way. I just find it just be a fascinating juxtaposition of expectations versus reality.

Speaker 2: 40:46

Yeah, yeah, yes. Everything you said I agree wholeheartedly with. And someone very close to me, a man very close to me who's been suffering chronic depression and has been suicidal and chronic anxiety, but has been keeping it to himself, apart from his wife and and close, close friends. But he's been keeping it to himself because of the stigma attached to mental health and he feels like a failure because of his struggles. Anyway, he he's been suicidal for quite some time and he finally agreed to going into hospital and he's in hospital. He's in a mental hospital and he's having electric shock treatment and he was so fearful of going in there and then when he went in, he was also saying please don't tell anybody, I've gone in here. I can't bear to think that people know that I'm in here. Anyway, he's been in for a week and he's actually met a community.

Speaker 2: 41:46

I was texting with him yesterday and he said the nurses are actually really lovely and there's a little, there's a posse of people in here and he said they're everyone.

Speaker 2: 41:55

There's lawyers and doctors and laborers and all sorts of folk that are struggling the same as him and they're all in there together and it's just even just that even him having a sense of because he lives on a farm, he lives isolated, and even him having a sense of it's I'm not alone, it's not just me, yeah, you know, has been already therapeutic for him. So there's really something around that connection and communication and and community of people who understand what you're going through, who get what you're going through, and, like you said, with all the service people that have been through terrible trauma, having each other, you know, is so vital, and I think I've heard from other vets as well, that when you finish your service and you go home and you're surrounded by people who don't understand what you've been through, that it can be so terribly lonely. And so then, the importance of continuing some sort of communities with other ex-service people so that you can still be surrounded by people who get it, I think must be really important.

Speaker 1: 42:58

Yeah, it's so incredibly important, you know, and I've experienced it myself, you know, being a woman veteran. And then when I meet other women veterans and we start talking, we start sharing stories and experiences, and it's like you too.

Speaker 2: 43:11

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1: 43:15

Not alone in this. You know it's you don't want to think of other people suffering, while at the same time, it's just it opens the door to another connection that you may just desperately need. You know, that connection with someone to be able to just get through the next day, the next week. You know how, however long it takes, you know. So what kind of advice or I guess what were some of the findings you know as you were writing your book that would lead to some advice to, to young men and who are still hesitant about communicating with others, or the idea of being vulnerable and opening yourself up, to paying attention to your emotions and then, oh God forbid, sharing your emotions with other people.

Speaker 2: 44:06

Yeah, a couple of things come to mind. I've been sitting in a men's circle which is quite literally a group of us men who sit around a fire once a month and we sit around the fire there's no alcohol, there's just water sitting around a fire with a, with a bottle of water and talking, and we take in turns. We go around the circle, we might pick a theme, you know so there might be a theme to talk about that month and you just literally go around and each man has the opportunity to to talk about what they feel or think about that theme, and the other men just listen. It's that simple and you could do this in your community. If you're in a community with a group of friends and you don't have to see if you can't sit outside around a fire, just sit in someone's lounge room but just go there with the pure intention of sitting and having the opportunity to share how you feel or what you think, and for the others to listen 's all it is. It's not a therapy session. You're not trying to solve each other's problems, you're not trying to offer each other advice. You're simply listening. And it's quite a powerful thing to do, and and and it's free, it doesn't cost anything. You could just need to get a group of mates and say, hey, do you want to try this men's circle? And we'll just sit around and talk. So that's something that comes to mind. Another practice that you could start a solo practice is just making some time to sit in contemplation and self-exploration. So if you have a family, if you have a partner and children, let them know what you're doing. Just say, hey, on Sunday afternoon I'm just going to go and sit in the backyard, I'm just going to go and sit under that tree just for 15 minutes or half an hour and I'm just going to sit with myself and do a bit of self-exploration, just get curious around how I'm feeling today.

Speaker 2: 45:58

That's it. That's all I'm going to do. If you're single and you don't have a family, go and dedicate some time and say I'm going to go and sit 15 minutes and sit there quietly and just contemplate your internal world how are you feeling? And then start to language that. So I'm feeling calm, or I'm feeling a bit agitated, or I'm feeling stressed, or I'm feeling tired, or I'm just start to put some words to it. Whatever words come to you. That's the first step. And then the second step is start to share how you're feeling with someone who cares. So if it's your partner or your best friend, say hey, I want to get better at communicating how I feel. So I'm going to start practicing it and I might be a bit clumsy to begin with. I might not be very good at it to begin feel.

Speaker 2: 46:42

So I'm going to start practicing it and I might be a bit clumsy to begin with, I might not be very good at it to begin with, but can I ask that you just lend me your ear occasionally and just listen while I try and communicate how I'm feeling, and of course the person who loves you will say of course you know. And then you just sit there and kind of bumble your way through it. So I I'm feeling a bit agitated, I think. I think perhaps maybe I'm feeling stressed and I think I'm feeling stressed about abc, you know, whatever that is.

Speaker 2: 47:13

So this is this, this is starting to communicate your emotions and and when you, as you practice this, if you made a weekly practice and said to your wife and kids, hey, every sunday I'm gonna go and sit, sit under the tree and spend some time, they will support that. And also the other benefits of that is that your children are learning from example. They're watching you spend time contemplating and practicing self-awareness. They're going to mirror that. They're going to be like oh wow, that's a good thing to do awareness.

Speaker 2: 47:42

They're going to mirror that they're going to be like oh wow, that's a good thing to do. So you're teaching your children, the next generation, how to be more contemplative and communicative, you know, in terms of your emotions. So, yeah, there's a couple of a couple of tips, oh.

Speaker 1: 47:54

I love that and I especially appreciate you verbalizing. It's okay to stumble your way through it. You know communication. I always say it's a skill just like any other skill. You got to work at it to get good at it, and so you have to give yourself permission, be human. It's not going to start off with everything being 100% accurate. It might feel weird at first, you might use the wrong word, you know occasionally. Whatever it is, it's okay, as long as you just continue to try it out, continue to work at it and you'll get more comfortable. You'll get more confident in your ability to communicate about those feelings and what you're thinking about and how your emotions are influencing your ability, you know, to to connect or communicate with others. You know, whatever that, it is that's bothering you. Don't give up the first time it doesn't go well, because, trust me, it's not going to go well at some point.

Speaker 2: 48:54

I mean that's how communication is. Yeah, completely yeah.

Speaker 1: 49:00

That's just how life is. You know, in general, be gentle be gentle on yourself. Yeah.

Speaker 2: 49:04

You know, be gentle on yourself, just just you know, and and it's the it's the actual act of practicing communication. That's the important thing, not how eloquent you are. It's that you're actually trying to communicate. That's what's important.

Speaker 1: 49:18

Yeah, absolutely. And I did want to say just one more thing very quickly, because you had mentioned the fire circle, so that you have people that you can just blow off some steam. This is what's going on with me today. I just need you to listen to me. That's so important. And then the ability to just have that alone time to reflect and get your thoughts together and practice communicating your feelings together and practice communicating your feelings that's that's important and I think a third part of that is therapy, you know, and I think it's important to be comfortable with understanding that therapy.

Speaker 1: 50:14

I think everybody, everybody could use some therapy.

Speaker 2: 50:18

So that stigma behind.

Speaker 1: 50:20

you know, I think I need to go talk to a therapist. I think is much better today than what it was even five, 10 years ago, but we still have a ways to go and I hope for. My hope for men is to be able to, you know, get past that stigma and to recognize that the strongest thing you could probably do, the most courageous thing you could probably do, would be to be honest in your desire, for I need help and I need professional help. I need to speak to a therapist, someone who's going to help me work my way, process my way through what I'm going through.

Speaker 2: 50:58

Yeah, absolutely. And also if you are someone who you might be fine. But if you have a friend and you ask them how they are and they go, yeah, I'm fine, and you feel like maybe they're not dig a little bit deeper, go, hey, are you really okay? Like I'm here and suggest therapy for them. Say, hey, I know a good therapist. Like, do you want to try them out, rather than just letting them kind of brush it under the carpet and go, no, no, no, I'm fine, I'm fine.

Speaker 2: 51:26

If you feel like they may be struggling, you know there's a really lovely question to ask. Rather than just asking hi, how are you? You could ask hey, on a scale of one to ten one being really terrible and ten being couldn't be better how are you today? Give yourself a score out of 10. It's a great question because it makes them actually think about it and be a bit real. And if they go, well, I reckon I'm a six. I go oh, wow, I'm curious Where's the four points difference between a six and you being? You know at your peak, at your best, what's going on for you? Because it creates a more real conversation and I have to actually answer you then and go well, I'm actually fighting with my wife and we've been fighting for a while now and I don't know what to do about it and I've got no one to talk with about it and it's like, oh wow, now we can have a real conversation.

Speaker 1: 52:12

Yeah, that's a fantastic prompt because I can tell you there are so many people who would not even know how to begin that I'm fine, I'm fine, but they're really not fine.

Speaker 2: 52:22

But they wouldn't even know how to say I'm not fine or explain so you can ask for a score out of 10.

Speaker 1: 52:28

Yeah, that's a fantastic way to start that conversation. Thank you for suggesting that. I know someone is going to hear this and that's going to be so incredibly helpful for them and that's the whole reason why I love having these conversations. So, if there's anyone out there who is interested in getting your book or contacting you, wanting to learn more about you and see your TEDx talk, all of those things where are you? What's your social media, your website, all of those things.

Speaker 2: 52:54

Everywhere is Jem Fuller with a J. J-e-m-f-u-l-l-e-rcom is the website. Jem Fuller is the handle. On all the socials you can find me. I'm really accessible. If you want to start a conversation, reach out to me and especially if you reach out through the website, that will come to me and we can start talking. The book now. At the moment, mango Publishing in the States we had to take down the first edition, take it off Amazon and Booktopia and all the places, so you can't get that anymore. But I think pre-sales for the second edition are happening. I think if you can't find the book, contact me through my website and I'll I'll get you one. I'll make sure you get one for sure.

Speaker 1: 53:35

Okay, that's fantastic. I'll I'll be sure to put your URL in the show notes as well, to make it easy.

Speaker 2: 53:41

Awesome. Thanks, Jen.

Speaker 1: 53:42

Click and go. Yeah, jim, it has been an absolute privilege to have this conversation with you. Thank you so much for writing this book. I don't think we talk about men's mental health and how important it is to communicate, learn those communication skills for men, and how just linked those two topics are mental health and your ability to communicate how you're thinking and what you're feeling and all of those things.

Speaker 1: 54:11

So I truly appreciate you taking the time I know it's early for you in Australia to have this conversation, but it's been such a blessing to have you on the show and I hope we're able to do this again sometime in the future.

Speaker 2: 54:26

Yeah, I'd love that. That'd be great. Thanks, Jen.

Speaker 1: 54:28

All right. Thank you All right, everybody. I hope you enjoyed this conversation as much as I did. Be sure to check out Jim's website, and I hope you all have a wonderful rest of your day. You take care now. Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of the Communication 24-7 podcast. We truly appreciate your support and love hearing from our listeners. If you enjoyed today's episode, please take a moment to share it on your social media platforms. Your shares help us reach more people and continue to bring you great content. And don't forget to follow us on all the social media platforms X, instagram, facebook, linkedin, youtube and now TikTok for the latest updates and more tips on effective communication. Thanks again for listening and until next time, keep communicating effectively.