94- Compassionate Decluttering and the Human Side of Hoarding w/ guest Margo Nelson pt 2

Unlock the secrets to a clutter-free life with psychotherapist Margo Nelson's transformative strategies for tidying your space and mind. Our enlightening chat with Margo from Courage Counseling takes you through a journey of self-discovery, challenging you to scrutinize your belongings with a critical eye. She guides you through asking the tough questions: Is this item worth moving with? Could I easily replace it? Our discussion goes beyond the physical, delving into the emotional baggage that accompanies our possessions. Learn why releasing items you're not using can actually be a cathartic release, freeing you from the weight of unnecessary clutter.

The heart-tugging dilemma of letting go of sentimental items is demystified as we navigate through the ocean of emotions tied to gifts from departed loved ones. Margo and I dissect the poignant moment a gift achieves its purpose—at the time of receipt—and how liberating it is to part with objects that no longer serve us. As we shed light on the impact of our culture's gift-giving habits, we also extend a compassionate hand towards understanding hoarding disorder, correcting misconceptions with empathy. Whether you're struggling with clutter, know someone who is, or are just looking to tidy up your life, this episode is packed with compassionate insight and practical advice.

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:49

Today, I am joined by one of my dearest friends, margo Nelson. Margo Nelson is a psychotherapist who specializes in hoarding disorder. She graduated with a Bachelor of Science in Art from UW Madison and a Master of Science in Counseling from UW Whitewater, which is how we met. Margo opened her private practice, courage Counseling, in 2017. She works with people who have hoarding disorder, as well as those who are impacted by the hoarding behaviors of a loved one. Her work also focuses on depression, anxiety and grief. Based in Madison, she provides services throughout the state of Wisconsin using virtual services and telehealth.

Speaker 1: 1:29

This is part two of my interview with Margo, because we had so much information to share and I also wanted to make sure that we were keeping these episodes to nice, consumable time frames. So listen in as Margo shares with us how to get a handle on decluttering. Do you have, or can you give us I don't know like a top five or a top three ways to declutter so that we can? You know, maybe we're not. You know, listeners are listening to this and they're like well, I don't know that I necessarily have hoarding disorder, but I do have a lot of clutter and I do know that I have a tendency to hold on to things, and so I maybe want to get a handle on that.

Speaker 2: 2:17

So my number one decluttering tip is don't bring objects into the home. The first decluttering tip is not to accumulate more. So reduce the shopping, reduce the picking up of things. Reduce what comes into the home is the number one decluttering tip. Think about some questions that are easy to ask. If I was moving, would I want to move this? Is this something that can be replaced in 20 minutes for $20? This is the thing where we get into the scarcity issue, because there are people who don't have the 20 minutes or transportation or $20. But I have.

Speaker 2: 2:56

In the last year I've been going through my laundry area and I've released some tools and some what do you call the kind of things that are like there was carburetor fluid and a cleaner. I don't use like that type of thing that at one point you needed and you certainly don't need to be keeping it in storage indefinitely Things that I have a hardware store nearby. I can easily replace them. I don't remember using carburetor fluid, but should I need it in the future, I can get access to it, and so I put those things up on the free site People took. I had a set of wrenches that I literally never used. It seemed like a good idea at the time. But if I've made it this far without using them, they can be useful to somebody else. So I don't want to move those things. I can replace those things. I'm not using those things, so what you're not using, could I use something else for it? Do I have enough screwdriver drivers? Yeah, do I have all the varieties of screwdriver? No, but is there a screwdriver that works every time? I need a screwdriver to work Absolutely, so I do not need more Thinking that whole thinking about. Can you be using something else? Something I ask.

Speaker 2: 4:13

So I've dealt with some older relatives and I deal with. Well, just in general, in life you encounter this. Is this something you want at your estate sale? Do you want the person going through your stuff to have to deal with this? And there's some things that I'm like yes, this is going to be at my estate sale my oil paint collection, my LPs, my fiesta wear maybe not all the fiesta wear, but some of it. They're going to be at my estate sale. I love having those things in my home. Do I need to have all the fiesta wear? Like I said, no, not all the fiesta wear is good to make it till I die? Do I need all of my art supplies? No, I've actually gotten rid of a lot of supplies because there were crafts and art projects that I was actively doing and then I wasn't doing them, so I released the supplies to be used by somebody else.

Speaker 2: 5:05

So you know, is this something you want to carry for the next 50 years? I don't want to carry carburetor fluid for the next 50 years. I don't want to be burdened by it. And does it go bad? Yeah, like it's crazy how much stuff goes bad. Like check the expiration dates. Wendy cluttering oh my gosh, great decluttering tip If it's past the expiration date, get rid of it. I don't care what they say about best buy dates. If it's past the date on the package, get rid of it because you are not using it. If it does not have a date and you haven't used it, get rid of that. You're not using it. Just make a decision in your brain. You're not debating how long our canned goods really good for. Let's look it up on the internet now.

Speaker 1: 6:05

Or spices Spices is the thing that got me. Oh spices, man. When my mom died, my papa and I were cleaning out kind of their kitchen cabinets and she had like five Mrs Dash and my brain went I can't let that go to waste. Like I use that in cottage cheese, I will use this. So I brought home a big grocery bag full of Mrs Dash and various flavors. How many of them have I used? None, none.

Speaker 2: 6:41

Well, you just brought up a really great point of. We have been raised to be thrifty. We are praised for saving money and being thrifty and using things up until they're done and really squeezing to the bottom of that toothpaste tube, and you could imagine a future where Mrs Dash would be used. So you need five, and then you had to store five and have space for five and keep them wiped down because things in kitchens get sticky because you cook in there, and you became responsible for five, mrs Dashes. Every object is something you're responsible for and I have a lot of responsibility in my life. I don't want to be responsible for wrenches that I don't use.

Speaker 1: 7:34

And I really appreciated your suggestion and how you handled some of the things that you were decluttering from your house, of using those free sites on Facebook. Like most of us are on Facebook, they have these wonderful buy, sale, trade or local free groups that you just post the stuff that you want to get rid of, say, hey, this is out on my front step, come grab it and people will come take it away for you. All you have to do is take a picture of it and put it on the internet.

Speaker 2: 8:06

I have really utilized those free sites and I'll tell you a story about my shed in just a moment. They can be a little bit dicey, though If you're somebody who wants to go get the free stuff, if you're going to utilize the sites, you need to be very clear that you're not going to just go pick up free things that you don't need. Today somebody posted oh my gosh, do you know the nesting Pyrex bowls and the primary colors, the red, the yellow, the blue, the green? Oh my gosh. Okay, somebody posted those bowls and I collect Pyrex. I have interest in those bowls. They're not the specific Pyrex I collect. I collect a very specific Pyrex pattern and the reason I narrowed it down to this is the pattern is to avoid having too much Pyrex. I have one set of nesting bowls because household having nesting bowls, that's reasonable. Two sets of nesting bowls, that's no good, but because I have the skill to say no to free stuff. But I can imagine people that want that set because it's free and it's usable and I can use it.

Speaker 1: 9:18

Like, just like the Mrs Dash, I can use it, I can. Does that mean that I will? Probably not. How long did that Mrs Dash live in your home?

Speaker 2: 9:29

A ridiculous amount of time. Did you use all five up?

Speaker 1: 9:32

No, no, I don't think I used any of them Honestly. So it went for a while. I don't think I used any of them Honestly. So it went from Wisconsin because that's where we were living when she died. It moved to Iowa with us. It moved to our second home in Iowa it's still in the same white grocery bag and I finally opened it up one time and Brian was like I'm going to get rid of these. I'm like you know, yeah, I think I think I can, boz, when gone almost 10 years we have not opened this at all. We've moved it twice. I don't know we can. We don't even have to put it on a free site so that somebody will get you side of it. Nobody needs to be eating that.

Speaker 2: 10:22

I guarantee it was past the best buy date. Oh yeah, and you do break up some really important parts about loss and grief. I think it's very appropriate to have some items of the loved one who has passed. I think it can be comforting, bring back memories, be reassuring I know that of at least a couple of things that are connected to your mom that you keep in your home.

Speaker 2: 10:49

However, sometimes people clear out a house and they keep everything all of the Tupperware, all of the sweaters, all of the sacks, all of the carburetor fluid and laundry detergent and first of all, this is the object of a person who has passed, and so now the laundry detergent has become sacred and so you don't want to use it because, finishing up that laundry detergent, it's as if the person is no longer with you because you used up the laundry detergent and it becomes very complicated. So people need to be very intentional with the objects they choose to keep. Is this what represents your loved one to you, or are you just holding on to these big ballpoint pens because they were in the desk drawer? That is a really tricky area.

Speaker 1: 11:47

Yeah, and I'm guessing that that's one that has to be teased apart within the therapy room. Yes, Like nowhere are we going to dissect any of that on a 45 minute podcast nor is it appropriate. But also just to put that out there of, like, if you're having a hard time letting go of some of these things, that might be a good indicator to go in and talk with somebody, if you're not already.

Speaker 2: 12:16

Absolutely. I definitely encounter people who have some insight that they're seeing this might be a problem. I can see down the road how this could interfere. I don't want to become. I cleaned out an older relative's home and I don't want to become that. And because boarding disorder does have, there seems to be a genetic component to it and there seems to be an environmental component to it. So there's, if a loved one from your family had this condition, that increases your odds and so people will see. I saw what happened over the course of 90 years of stuff and I don't want that level of accumulation.

Speaker 1: 13:04

We were talking before I hit record, and one of the other big things that I think people have trouble letting go of are gifts that they have been given by a loved one but don't necessarily use or want.

Speaker 2: 13:22

That is so appropriate given the season. Yeah, we are such an obligatory gift giving culture and people do feel this incredible sentimental attachment to this person picked this out for me. First of all, I do like the work of Maricando. I think that some of our things don't apply to the client I'm working with and some of her base concepts are really good and she always says that the job of the gift is to be the gift and once the gift has been given its job, it's done. I was like, well, that is that really held with me.

Speaker 2: 14:05

And then recently on a TikTok and I'm so sorry I can't tell you the creator on this she brought up that Maricando concept and said a gift is not a shackle. The gift is not intended to weigh you down, hold you back, become your responsibility for the next 50 years and be a burden to dust. The person who gave it to you does not want you to be burdened. They do not want you to live in clutter. And that's something I do say to people often is the people who gave you those objects do not want you to live in clutter. So if they give you a gift that you enjoy, yeah, use it, keep it, treat it with reverence. Have a ball. If it's too much, if it doesn't suit you, if you know, let it go, release it.

Speaker 2: 15:00

Do the honor of allowing the object to bring someone else joy? Yeah, something I just so people on the free sites are putting up their gifts. I am seeing a lot of scented lotions, a lot of pancake mixes, a lot of novelty items to create pancake mixes. It is just a very curious thing from my perspective to just watch the sites, see the trends, see what people will take, see what people ask for man. Someone should research that and write a book. Someone could.

Speaker 1: 15:48

I think there are yeah, there's lots of information to be had, even from just the social media free sites. Speaking of gifts, and because we're recording this on December 27th, I'm hoping to get this out relatively soon, since it's still relevant to the holiday season, one of the things that our family has done, because Anthony is in that age he's 12, so he still likes toys but we have a closet full literally a closet down in the basement of all of his toys. Plus, he's got his bedroom closet full of toys that we've moved away from doing and you'll open present objects for gifts and we've moved more towards experiences and family gifts this year. Well, most Christmases we do this. He usually gets one big gift, but because it's one big gift, you open it and then it's done. And then there's like oh, it's so disappointing that there was only one gift and it's really cool gift, but it's done within five minutes. One of the things that we do for birthdays and Christmas presents is we create scavenger hunts.

Speaker 1: 17:07

We put together clues and then hide the clues throughout the house so that he's got to go through each clue, figure out what the clue is and where the next clue is. This year for Christmas we had I found one, and I ended up putting together 17 different clues and it took him over half an hour to find his gift.

Speaker 2: 17:29

I have never heard of that. I love the concept. If opening gifts is fun, you haven't taken away the fun that you've expanded the event and it is an event that is fantastic, yeah.

Speaker 1: 17:44

So I just want to share that in case other listeners are thinking of, like okay, well, yeah, I don't want to clutter my friends and family's lives up, but I also still want to give something Like yeah, do an experience gift.

Speaker 2: 17:55

But also, if you're going to give an object and you make that opening an experience, and when you're talking about kids toys on the free sites, you saw people throughout the month of December sorting through their kids toys, preparing for there to be more choice incoming and creating space for that, and people who have children that are in the appropriate age, like kids out grow toys. Kids in the appropriate age group got to get those toys for Christmas. You know it's a. You know people do this planning on. I'm super impressed with people who put up the Halloween decorations on the free site at the end of September. I put ice skates on the free site in August because that's when I was decluttering. But I am always impressed with people who do the giving away in a very timely fashion.

Speaker 1: 18:53

I somewhat am impressed with that, but I'm also like, ooh, that takes a lot of energy to hold on to the thing for the right time.

Speaker 1: 19:01

And I'm still holding on to it and I'm still responsible for it, of like and this is kind of why I've moved away from selling anything on marketplace is I just end up taking it all to salvation or mere goodwill just because I like I want it out of my house. I don't want to mess with coordinating with people to pick it up. I don't want to have it here for another five weeks, five months. I want it out, it's just going.

Speaker 2: 19:25

The more you handle an object, the more you want to keep it. So the more it's around your house, the more you're taking pictures of it to put on the free site or what have you. The more you're handling it, the more you want it. I am a big advocate, for if you're ready to get it out, get it out now. I'm impressed with those people who give away Halloween decorations at the end of September. I get it out of the house when I can get it out of the house and both are okay. Both are okay. Yeah, it's not a problem. Yeah, you know it's it's, and it's really remarkable to look at it as a population.

Speaker 2: 20:00

People have this idea that people with horny disorder are lazy. Oh my gosh. No, no. They put in a tremendous amount of energy to accumulate these things. They have so much energy that goes into the upkeep. It might look like their home isn't tidy and clean, but they're still putting forth a lot of energy to having those objects around them. There, it is not a lazy population and in general, I don't believe in lazy. That's another podcast.

Speaker 1: 20:26

That is another podcast. I love that idea.

Speaker 2: 20:29

This is not a population that's irresponsible. In fact, they're more responsible. They want to be planning for the future. That you know, what might I need in the future? What might someone else need? There's definitely thoughts of what if a neighbor needed to borrow this? They're planning for their futures and other people's futures. They're holding on to the past for themselves and for other people. You know, someday someone of the next generation will want this information. They will want this picture. They will want these things. You know they're taking care of so much. This is definitely a bright, creative population. People sometimes have this stereotype of well, that's just stupid that they're keeping that. Absolutely not. There is a lot of thought and creativity that has gone into that object. It is not an intelligence issue. And again, if you know that this population is generous, if you know that they're responsible, how can you work with that responsibility as an asset?

Speaker 1: 21:43

Any other final thoughts before we wrap up?

Speaker 2: 21:49

I really talk a lot in general and haven't brought it up today that kindness and compassion are the key. Kindness and compassion for working with people according to disorder. Kindness and compassion for yourself. Kindness and compassion if you're trying to work with somebody and you feel frustrated. One of the big perks of me as a professional is that I don't have decades of experience with a person. A lot of people can be very emotional because they think their loved one chose stuff over them. That's not actually the case. I understand how it may look like that from the outside, but kindness and compassion for yourself for having those feelings, and kindness and compassion for the person who is experiencing the difficulties.

Speaker 1: 22:40

I love these ideas. I think, whether you're listening to this and you feel like you have a clutter issue, or you feel like maybe you're on the verge of hoarding or maybe you are hoarding, I think Margo has given us some really good tips on how to start with it. And then, if you want to go deeper, margo, how can people get ahold of you if they are listening in Wisconsin, live in Wisconsin and want to work with you?

Speaker 2: 23:08

So I am available through my website. I am courage counseling Madisoncom. There's actually a couple of courage counseling in the country. I'm the only one in Wisconsin, so I'm an expert in hoarding disorder. This is what I do. I am rare. There are not a lot of people that are experts in this. However, there are a lot of people who deal with anxiety, grief, depression, adhd, other circumstances which lead to clutter. So if you can't get someone who's an expert in hoarding disorder, find somebody who works with another one of the issues you're having and see if that helps resolve your hoarding disorder.

Speaker 1: 23:49

Thank you for sharing that, because I was going to ask if people aren't in Wisconsin and they can't access you because of current licensing regulations which side note, not important right now. Thank you for giving them options of hoarding experts are rare, and so if you can't find one in your area that takes your insurance or that you feel like you connect with, look for someone who treats some of the other underlying issues that you might be having Absolutely, and if that doesn't help resolve some of the hoarding behaviors, then keep working and finding an expert who will and if you are a therapist who would like to consult with somebody about hoarding disorder, please feel free to give me a call, because there does need to be a greater community of people who work with hoarding disorder and I'm happy to be a resource for that.

Speaker 1: 24:47

Yeah, Thank you for putting that plug in there, because I think there's a lot of mental health professionals that listen to the show, that, yeah, I wholeheartedly believe in consultation. It takes a village.

Speaker 2: 25:02

Yes, absolutely Well. Thank you so much for having me on, sabrina. I appreciate you all the time.

Speaker 1: 25:08

Thank you, margot, for coming on and hopefully you'll come back at some point. I would be delighted to. I hope you have enjoyed these episodes with Margot as she walks through what hoarding is and gave us some tips on how to declutter some of the items in our home. If you have questions, if you're looking for more information on clutter, on hoarding anything in that realm, please email me at info at healthhoparmonycom and let me know those questions, because Margot said she'd love to come back and answer any of those questions that we have. So I'm going to gather them up and then invite her back on the show and answer them so that you have all the information that you need. Hope you are well, my friend, until next time.