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📱Social and other ways to explore Texas History
This episode comes from the Rosenberg Library Conversation series where J.R. Shaw sat down with historians to talk about some interesting historical events and people in Galveston and Texas history. Thanks to the Rosenberg Library for allowing Galveston Unscripted to hold live podcast conversations in the library. This conversation series was such a great experience and we captured some awesome interviews.
We sit down with Mrs. Tommie Boudreaux and Mrs. Alice Gatson, two amazing Galvestonians and authors who have coauthored "Lost Restaurants of Galveston's African American Community" and "African Americans of Galveston". We cover growing up in Galveston, integration, lost restaurants of the Galveston community, and much, much more.
📍Visit our interactive map!
Enjoy this content? Buy me a book! 📚
📱Social and other ways to explore Texas History
This episode comes from the Rosenberg Library Conversation series where J.R. Shaw sat down with historians to talk about some interesting historical events and people in Galveston and Texas history. Thanks to the Rosenberg Library for allowing Galveston Unscripted to hold live podcast conversations in the library. This conversation series was such a great experience and we captured some awesome interviews.
We sit down with Mrs. Tommie Boudreaux and Mrs. Alice Gatson, two amazing Galvestonians and authors who have coauthored "Lost Restaurants of Galveston's African American Community" and "African Americans of Galveston". We cover growing up in Galveston, integration, lost restaurants of the Galveston community, and much, much more.
I consider myself a lifelong learner. I'm learning things exactly all the time about Galveston, not just Galveston's, African American history. I would say. Galveston, Texas built Texas.
Alice Gatson:I want the young people to know, You need to know what happened.
Tommie Boudreaux:He found this skull, and of course he called the police. They investigated this when they realized it was a cemetery. they would have, The social hour on the weekend. Mm-hmm. Selling bootleg whiskey.
J.R.:Welcome to Galveston Unscripted. This episode comes from the Rosenberg Library Conversation series where I sat down with a few historians to talk about some extremely interesting historical facts about Galveston and Texas history. I would like to personally thank the Rosenberg Library for allowing Galveston Unscripted to hold live podcast conversations in the library. This conversation series was such a great experience and I really look forward to picking it up again in the fall of 2023. And a very huge thank you to our guests. This episode with Miss Alice Gatson and Miss Tommy Boudreaux is about an hour long, but trust me, you are gonna wanna stick around for the entire. Thing. We discuss different aspects of Galveston's lost African-American restaurants and some fascinating African-Americans in the Galveston community over the past 100 years.
J.R. (2):If this is your first time listening to Galveston Unscripted, be sure to subscribe to the podcast. If you've listened or watched before and you enjoy the content we are putting out in audio and video, please make sure to like, subscribe and review the podcast. Leave us a review, leave us a rating. It really helps other people find what we are doing here at Galveston Unscripted. Your rating and review helps other people find Galveston Unscripted and discover the amazing history of our little island. And be sure to follow us on Facebook, Instagram, TikTok, all those social media platforms.
J.R.:without further ado, let's hop into this episode with Ms. Alice Gatson And Ms. Tommy Boudreaux.
J.R. (2):I just wanna start and say it is an absolute honor to be here at the Rosenberg Library. To be sitting down and, and talking to authors and historians. For those who don't know me, I'm pretty sure I know everyone here in the room right now, but my name is JR. And I started a podcast back in 2021, uh, during covid in my closet, um, for a nice little soundproof atmosphere and just wanted to tell the story of Galveston. And that's all I really wanted to do. And it has grown into, um, where each episode's getting, you know, Thousands of downloads and people are listening from all over the United States. I'm just really happy to be able to sit down at the Rosenberg in front of a live audience and really, um, share, uh, what, what we all love about Galveston and really pinpoint what makes Galveston Galveston. So we're getting started with only half of our, our guest, uh, lineup tonight. But let's just go ahead and, and hop right in here. So I'm gonna go ahead and give the intro for both Tommie and Alice. Um, because you guys have a lot of similarities. Um, so Tommie and Alice, Tommie Boudreau and Alice Gatson are both Boi and graduates of the Historic Central High School. They both serve on the Galveston historical Foundation's. African American Heritage Committee, Allison Tommie, both serve on the board of directors for the old Central Cultural Center. Um, they are co-authors of African Americans of Galveston and lost restaurants of Galveston's African-American community. Uh, ladies and gentlemen, thank you for joining me. So all my questions kind of go out the window. Yeah, all my questions kind of go out the window since it's just Alice and I now. But hey, um, We sat down at MOD a few weeks ago and we had a wonderful conversation. I think we were, we were slated for like 45 minutes. They were, we were there for two hours and it was just a blast. Um, I'm gonna skip to the very last question I have here, the last topic I have. Um, and just kind of talk about your upbringing in Galveston. What was it like growing up here, uh, on the island when you were young? What was it like for your parents?
Alice Gatson:Well, my parents, uh, my parents were workers. My mom worked for, um, GISD, but let me just back up. My mom, um, my dad worked, my mom took care of the family until we were able to go to school. Then she started working, but she worked for G.I.S.D. She was in the cafeteria and she worked her way up to cafeteria manager. My dad did construction in Galveston. He worked for one of the construction companies and wanting to better and make more money. He joined, uh, uh, wharf. He was a longshoreman on the wall. So, um, there's, I have a sister Rosa and, uh, we think we grew up pretty good. Our neighborhood, we were, we had a mixed neighborhood, I would say. Um, on the corner we, well, on the corner was a corner grocery store. And there was an Italian family. They had a daughter, and she was the same age as probably Rosa and me. Rosa and I are a year and six months apart. Mm-hmm. So we grew up in a, um, mixed neighborhood across the street that was, um, a white family. And we all looked out for each other. We all played with the, the, with everybody. Mm-hmm. You know, in our block. And so that was. That was our community. Our little block. Yeah. Okay. You had another block. And we looked at them. That was their little community. Mm-hmm. And so you kind of had your little community versus their little community. And we just had fun. Awesome. We, it was, it was a close. We had close community,
J.R.:ladies and gentlemen, Tommie Boudreau.
Tommie Boudreaux:We lived
Alice Gatson:at, uh, 36 22 Avenue N LA Morgan is sitting where? Our house used to be, it's 36 10 Avenue N. We moved from there because of La Morgan to 36, 10 Avenue M. we, we, it was pretty good. I, I enjoyed my being a little girl in Galveston. I enjoyed it. I, I don't know if it was the innocence or what, but we didn't have a lot. But it's, we didn't know anything about not having a lot or having a, having a lot or having nothing. We were content, our parents, whatever they said, we knew they were looking out and it was for our benefit. Mm-hmm. Okay. It's supper time. You better have yourself at the house ready to eat and you better not drink water from somebody else's house cuz you got water at your house. So come on to the house and get your water at your house. You don't go and it's okay to go and play and you know, with which we, our little friends. You know what I always say? We had a little gang. I told you our little neighborhood stuck together and then the next block, it was their little neighborhood. So we kind of, we had our little, a little, you know, you could come in and play with us, but it only if our little neighborhood wanted you to come in. Mm-hmm. But you know, that was just our little group. We had fun though. We had a fun little, little thing going on. We enjoyed it. Yeah.
J.R.:So Tommie, I've, uh, done an intro. Um, I did a little rundown of an intro and opened up with what was it like for you growing up in
Alice Gatson:Galveston?
Tommie Boudreaux:Growing up in Galveston? Um, I really enjoyed myself. We did a lot of family things in the family was together. We, um, you know, had all our meals together. We. Celebrated together. Coming up. Um, growing up. Um, My parents couldn't afford to give birthday parties, but we knew all a special day we were going to get our special dessert and nobody could touch it until the birthday person was ready. Um, um, we had, um, my mother would make on special days she would make, um, ice cream and she used the old. Ones that you have to turn. And my father was the last one to turn it because it was getting really hard. Um, she taught us out how to cook. We were cooking, I guess, when we were 10, 11, 12 years old. But we were a pretty tightknit family because my father's, um, mother moved to Galveston. She didn't live with us, but his brothers moved to Galveston and it was just, A big family gathering all the time. Um, the church that we attended, we had attended her church for a while on Avenue K, and there were a lot of kids in the neighborhood, uh, the families. One difference then when we lived in the East End, um, we were a very diverse community. While we didn't. Socialize. Anybody who was ill or mother had a baby, there was somebody there was gonna bring something to help'em out. They would donate clothes if you were sick. If you were ill, they were, you could guarantee you were gonna get a pot of something from somebody. Uh, so that was the way it worked. We had, I think that the time until I was about 12 years old living on Tenth and K, my. Our family and another family. Were the only black family on the block, but we all got along real well, so. Mm-hmm. And one of the things that I remember, I, um, the young girl starting to school, my mother would always, um, we rode the bus city, the city bus. My mother would always have a card for us with our address and everything on it. And I can remember when. She walked, me and my sister to school one day to the bus stop. One day she told the bus driver where we needed to get off and he said, don't worry about it. I'll take care of him. And he actually seated us behind him so we didn't have to go to the back of the bus. And as long as that drug, uh, bus driver was on duty, we sat next to him. Got a lot of eyes looking at us, but we were a big family, family. Yeah.
Alice Gatson:How was,
J.R.:uh, school, I guess before we get into the restaurants and, and things like that, how was school growing growing up
Alice Gatson:for both of you? Uh, school was fun for me. Mm-hmm. I enjoyed it. Um, I, I can remember my favorite teacher was Ms. Green in the second grade. Um, and my sister was in kindergarten, I think. But we would walk to school because. Um, we were a block from George W. Carver Elementary School, and that's where I went to elementary school and my mother was working there. So my mom would leave out for seven o'clock to be at work for seven o'clock and when she left out, she left breakfast and everything. All we had to do was eat breakfast, put your clothes on and get ready to walk that block to school. So, um, we would do that every day. And my, uh, my sister's little kindergarten teacher. Who's Mrs. Deson would look out and make sure that, you know, we got to school and she would go in, turn, go and let Mom know we made it to school on time. But I, I enjoyed, especially my elementary school, you know, I enjoyed that. I also enjoyed my central high school days. I was in band and our band was fun. I enjoyed it Band. Yeah.
Tommie Boudreaux:How about you, Tommie? In school? Our teacher, cause I think she, you went to Booker T. You, you went to Carver. George w The Carver and I attended Booker t Washington. Booker t Washington was on the east end and Carver was more the west end. West end about the middle of town. But the, the teachers were almost like your parent, second parent. Mm-hmm. They expected the most of you. Uh, they would. Share information, not just go with the classroom. They would expect the young ladies to act like young ladies. Mm-hmm. Uh, they expect the young men to be young men. They would make sure that we would dress correctly. If you were not dress correctly, then they either found some clothes for you to wear or either contact your parent and say they're not appropriately dressed, but. I, I, my favorite teacher was Ms. Strode, my kindergarten teacher. Well, I had several favorites in, yeah, I just loved kindergarten because I loved the story time and the snack time when we would have graham crackers and cook and milk. So, uh, that was fun. Um, Ms. Adams, several of them, but they were more of. I guess just they were the, the consultant, the therapist, the teacher and everything. So yeah. The ability, yeah. Yeah. And, and all teachers, I mean, no matter whether you were in the one teacher's class, every teacher was, was checking on you. They knew your name, they knew the parents. They would actually contact parents. They would visit parents, so, so
Alice Gatson:you wanted to be. On your best behavior? Yes. Oh yes. Because parents, mom was gonna know it by the end of Yes. The end of the day. Mm-hmm. So you, you need to be on your best behavior.
Tommie Boudreaux:And they really expected the best of us. In fact, we had teachers to tell us we had to be better. Mm-hmm. We had to be right. Had to be better. And I realized how much they were. Um, preparing us is when I went off to college, um, I remember our science teacher. Oh gosh, I thought he was a horrible teacher. I used to cry in his class, but he taught us chemistry and, uh, he actually didn't teach much from the classroom book. He had his own notes and he. Taught us Mr. Mr. Dansby. I knew that's who it was. Mr. Danby, Mr. Hall, Dansby. And when I went off to college, I was sitting in classes, in chemistry classes, and those students were actually lost. I, I knew it. The same thing in, in math, and all the other courses, many of them taught from notes that they had. I really think they were teaching from their college notes. But, uh, they had us prepare for school. And
Alice Gatson:I'll tell you, Hall Dansby. You know, going into his class in the beginning of the school year, I was, I mean, I was really afraid of him. But once you got in there, you understood what he was trying to do
J.R.:for you. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Pushing, pushing you to be better. Mm-hmm. Right? Yeah. Mm-hmm. So, wanna transition over to, um, one of your books and maybe just a brief overview and then we'll hop into the lost restaurants. So, um, the. One that you both co-authored first African Americans of Galveston. Mm-hmm. So I wanted to see, and, and hear you guys elaborate on, you know, uh, Galveston had some of the first African American churches and institutions prior to emancipation. Mm-hmm. And post emancipation, Galveston seemed to be this magnet for African Americans. Um, why was Galveston so different pre emancipation and post emancipation?
Tommie Boudreaux:Well, one, and, and they say the people there, the enslaved paper people there, they were still held in bondage and couldn't really live their own lives. But I think it was the workforce that made it different. Mm-hmm. Galveston didn't have plantations. Yeah. Right. Most of the African-Americans or the enslaved people were domestic servants. Um, they, they worked on the wharf, they worked on in houses. They were nannies. They, they did those type of jobs, but however, You know, they were on, they had to be ready 24 hours a day, so they never knew when somebody was gonna ask them to do something. So that was one of the major difference. And people said that Galveston enslaved people had it easier, but it wasn't because they still did not, were not able to live their own lives. But there were times when, um, We had plantations surrounding Galveston that sometimes their masters would hire them out to work on those plantations when their friend needed some extra help. But otherwise, it was the work that they did in Galveston to make Galveston very, very wealthy. Mm-hmm.
J.R.:So post emancipation, post juneteenth after 1865, um, you know, when we sat down a few weeks ago, we kind of discussed, um, A little bit about Galveston being this magnet for African American people to move to, and you, you definitely see that highlighted in the lost restaurants of Galveston, right? Mm-hmm. Um, what was it about Galveston that brought so many African Americans from all over the country? It was
Alice Gatson:different. Now. Most of, not all, but most of the, the, um, people coming into Galveston did come off plantations from Brazoria County, Matagorda County. And from Louisiana, most of them came off of plantation. So moving, they were looking for better and Galveston could offer them better. A a lot of times in Galveston, uh, might have had slaves, but the slaves were taught different skills. Mm-hmm. Other than working in the house. Mm-hmm. You know that we had brick, brick
Tommie Boudreaux:masons. Brick layers. Yeah. Masons.
Alice Gatson:Iron workers. Iron workers. Yeah. You know, they, we had it going on and they kind of saw an opportunity. Now if you come up to lost restaurants, a lot of these, um, Lot of the African Americans from Matagorda and Brazoia County that they had the barbecue pits. Mm-hmm. They, you know, they brought their cooking skills to Galveston and which was an opportunity to, a business opportunity. They could start business and, you know, things like they hadn't been able to do, have their own business or whatever back, uh, at home. Mm-hmm.
J.R.:So, So, you know, we kind of touched on this a little earlier, so does any other community have a book written about their lost African American restaurants or lost restaurants? Um, do you guys, have you guys ever heard of another one?
Tommie Boudreaux:I don't know if any book, uh, written about lost restaurants. We, there are a lot of books that are, see this book originally was supposed to be a cookbook. Mm-hmm. Uh, it was Dr. Dwayne Jones after we had completed the first book. He came to the committee about two or three years later and said, why don't you guys do a cookbook and you want to find recipes handed down over the generations and all these. Restaurants that people have talked so much about, get their recipes and so on. Well, when we finally start working on it, we realized that all of those people were gone. And many of them, if the family members knew them, they didn't write down recipes. So nobody really knew how to prepare the food. But as we spoke with different people who had, may have been waiters, most of'em were in up in age or um, Um, bus boys or, um, or something like that, they would tell us the story about the person, and that's what really interests us. Mm-hmm. Their, where they, as she said, they, their families came from the, the cotton field and sugar cane, uh, cities, and came to Galveston to improve their lives and how they did it. Mm-hmm. So, uh, It's, it was, it was just that way. And we decided that those stories were so interesting. We needed to tell more than just about the cooking.
J.R.:And if you get, if y'all don't have this book, you definitely need to buy it or check it out from the library and keep it in your kitchen because there are some amazing, amazing recipes in there. That is for sure. Okay, so, um, so what were some of the first. Were the reasons some of these restaurants were popping up in locations. Um, were they mainly near the port catering to workers or laborers, or were they just general restaurants for anybody? Uh, a lot of them
Alice Gatson:were catering to the walls. Uh, um, they were like cafes, so to speak, so they had quick hot lunches or supper, you know, for the longshoreman. I, I know for sure for the longshoreman that's what it was. But on Sundays also, It was an outing for families. The, you know, good after church you'd go, the family would go and, and not so much. It is the difference from now, this is what African Americans had, these were our places to go to. So families would get together at the church or, or have their weddings at these places because that's where we could go and that's what we
Tommie Boudreaux:could do. You know, also they were able to, um, most of them, you know, were not in the heart of Galveston, right? So they were able to buy property in the areas that other people didn't want, want uhhuh. So you'll find that me have five restaurants on the same block. Mm-hmm. Across the street. Down the street. Some of them may be, may have two or three barbecue places. Within a two block radius. Uh, and so they took that opportunity to use the skills that they'd learned. Excuse me. You have to remember that. Excuse me. The enslaved people, um, were their meals was what their owners didn't want. One of the hottest meal, um, one of the hottest entrees now is oxtails. Mm-hmm. Everybody, you know, they want oxtails. They like to go to soul food Place for Oxtails. Well, their owners didn't eat the oxtail. Mm-hmm. Um, now I can remember eating things that some of you probably wouldn't even think about. Calf brains They would actually, um, add eggs and scramble'em up. Um, kidney, kidneys, tongue I understand tongue is a delicacy now. Yeah, it is in some restaurants. So, and they, I guess I'm assuming they probably found wild herbs to season these things. Oh yeah. So the people who came to Galveston brought those skills that had learned from their parents, grandparents, and ancestors, and they'd use that as a means of making money. And the thing about those restaurants, they were open to everybody. So, which meant if someone heard about it, no matter who you are, if you were there to buy something, if they didn't have it, have it, they would try to find a way to make it. What was said, uh, saying about the money? Oh yeah. There was one that, this is not a Galveston man, but he had a restaurant in, um, I think Beaumont and, uh, it was back in. The twenties, the thirties, and he had, um, he had one door for whites and one door for blacks, but for some reason his door for whites was in the front and for blacks in the back, and some of his patrons complained. And he said he wasn't concerned about who opened the doors and came in because on Monday morning, the green stuff went to the bank. So he just, and that was the way it was. They, they, they took on any type of job they could to help themselves and were very creative in the foods that they prepared.
J.R.:Um, it's, yeah, it's good to hear you say, you know, it's, it's nice to hear you say that the, all the money's green doesn't matter. I mean, that's how kind of it was viewed. Mm-hmm. I mean, was it common for, you know, um, a, a white person to walk down and go eat at the. Yes. And some of these black owned restaurants. Yes. You know, where, you know, you couldn't have black people walk over to the white owned restaurants,
Alice Gatson:right? Yes. It was
Tommie Boudreaux:common. Mm-hmm. Oh, oh yes. Because now I don't, I don't remember ever actually having dining in a restaurant, but my father would sometime take us when he would purchase food to go. And you would see as many white people in there as you saw black. Mm-hmm. Um, I think, uh, is it Cherry? I think his name please. Yeah. Bill Cherry. Bill Cherry. Bill. Cherry. Cherry. We talk about all the different restaurants they go to. Mm-hmm. Um, so it, it was, it was, it didn't matter who walked in. Um, they worked and they also, many of them were open 24 hours. Uh, they would have, um, The social hour on the weekend. Mm-hmm. Selling bootleg whiskey. Many of'em didn't have permits to do that, but in the wee hours of the night when someone was having a party there, if they ran out, they could pull something, a Johnny Walker bottle from under the shelf and sell it to them. So they found different ways to make sure that they make money. Uh, Mr. Oliver, I know that, um, three generations in that book, you see that. I got a chance to speak with his grandson and, uh, and his son before both of'em had passed now and said he remembers working there. And that was the way it was on weekends. You know, people would come there and party all night long, but as long as they were buying the barbecue, the food, they kept going and he supplied them with the extra spirit that they needed.
J.R.:Um, so it just reminded me, um, For those listening or watching, uh, they don't know what the Green Book is. Could one of you tell us what the Green Book is and why it was
Alice Gatson:significant? Well, I'll let Tommie take over, but the, the Green Book, the green book was uh, uh, a list. It was a book that was put together for African Americans because when you travel, we didn't have, uh, hotels to stay in or places to eat. So the Green Book was a collection of, as you travel in the south, especially there were, uh, restaurants that were safe for you to stop and eat or even get gas to get gas or hotel, you know, lodging. So, Tommie probably can expound just a little more on there,
Tommie Boudreaux:but, well, and, and basically that's what he, it was, um, I can't remember his first name, but I know his last name was Green. Green. His last name is Green. Green. He was a postman. Mm-hmm. And, um, he delivered, you know, mail in different areas and so on. He was run into African Americans who were in New York, where could they stay? And he would try to give'em direction to where they could go. So he realized then that, you know, maybe I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll publish a book. And that's what he did. He contacted, you know, different people that he knew in various states and so on, and asked them about. Now there were a few, um, places. In fact, we, we had, um, a couple to come and tell us about the Green Book. When they discovered it, they decided that they were just, Get a, a van and just travel and visit some of them. Um, and what they would do is that as people would hear this information, a safe place where they could get gas or safe place where they could stay, then that was entered into the book. Galveston had several. Mm-hmm. Um, one of them, I know TD Armstrong. Armstrong had one Gus Allen had one. We had people who opened their homes for the people, uh, Mrs. Pope and, uh, Ms. Freeman home was open to people. Ms. Pope
Alice Gatson:was one of the, she was one of the, Main one. She
Tommie Boudreaux:stayed open a good while too. Yeah. And then there's one, what is the one that's an antique there? That's the building is still standing. Mm-hmm. Only under hotel. Yes. Uhhuh. Yes. Uh, yes. It's still standing. It's an, and when I understand that they had like, um, uh, they had an area for the people. Who wanted to, had need to place the rest, but they also had the Ladies of the Night in another section. So, um, I guess that's what everything you need, I guess, why the built everything you needed. So. Absolutely. But Galveston at one time was an open town. I mean, we were a little Las Vegas. We have all kind of names, Sin City, all those kind of things. But, uh, we've, we've survived. But the Green Book was helpful, uh, for those who, who did travel. Mm-hmm. Um, I never, and then, cuz you had, you had sundown cities. Yes. There were sundown cities where you weren't supposed to be caught on the road after dark. And some people did have some problems with that. Um, I can remember my, my dad, I never did understand why he did that, but when he would take us to visit our grandmother in Mexia, Texas. We would start out early in the morning. He made sure that his gas was topped off and he actually had a container with gas, which would be dangerous now. And my mother would fry chicken and food and stuff, and he would drive all the way straight to my hair without stopping. Well, let's say there was some stops in wooded areas. Oh, I'll, I'll say that. Um, but you know, I understand now why he, he did that. He did that. You know, because we will be asking, you know, can we get out and walk and play? No, you couldn't because you just could not travel through the United States safely. Mm-hmm.
J.R.:So definitely wanted to hammer on something a little bit, a little bit of a transition here. You know, reading lost restaurants at Galveston, even just flipping through, if anyone's picked this up and flipped through and they, and they start reading where most of these entrepreneurs and restaurant owners are from you, you start wondering what's going on with Louisiana and why is half the state of Louisiana moving to Galveston? So, wow. Was Albert Feas, Gus Allen, TD Armstrong? Mm-hmm. All of them from Louisiana. So it's, Just one of those things, opportunities picked
Alice Gatson:up on of opportunity.
Tommie Boudreaux:It was an opportunity. They just didn't have the opportunities in, in Louisiana that they had in Galveston. And the, the, the, the waterfront really drew a lot of them. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Because, um, Galveston, you know, let's face it, we know that many of the, um, the, uh, free people left and so they needed the workforce. So that's why when they heard that there was work there where they would actually get paid, then um, they, they came to Galveston and some of them, you know, when they brought, they brought the family, brought the entire family. So you may not have the grandma and everybody family. You may not have an uncle who can, can work on the wharf, but he knew how to cook. Mm-hmm. So, yeah.
J.R.:Okay. So I definitely wanna leave time for questions, um, here in a little bit. So we have about five more minutes. Um, so this is one thing I definitely wanted to ask you. People have moved away. Buildings have been torn down, but so many lives were affected by these entrepreneurs and establishments. They were places that spurred conversations, business plans, places to rest, and enjoy a good meal. Why is it important to continue to remember these lost restaurants and stories from our community?
Tommie Boudreaux:I guess I, I just wanted to say one word. They were survivors. They found a way to survive, and if it was through cooking or whatever they did, they were survivors. Let's, you know, after emancipation. They were still in bondage. You know, you had the black codes, you had all these laws that were a pass to, let's say To maintain their status as a second last class citizen. And even though, you know, we had early churches, we had early school, you still were not accepted, but you found a way to survive. So I don't know if you wanna answer Well, my thoughts about
Alice Gatson:that. Um, I think we should, we should make sure that the young folks know what's going on. Know that, uh, there are obstacles and how these people overcame the obstacles that they faced. Um, they should know that there, they, that really, they harder, they had a harder challenge than we probably would have today, but there was a challenge and they had to get. They had to learn how to get over it. And if they know what happened and they see what the past, they'll know how to go forward and what I need to do if they did it during those times, surely I can do better than that. And that's my thoughts about
Tommie Boudreaux:it. Because they have more opportunities now. Yes. Yes. Mm-hmm. And when their, um, ancestors survived a little of nothing. There was always food on the table. Mm-hmm. They kept a roof over the, on the, over their heads. Um, and, and the thing is, it's so many things they, they learned to do. Um, my mother could take'em a hand. And make three meals out of it. Mm-hmm. I mean, you may have had baked, you had some dumplings. You had you, that was a way to do it. That's right. Stretch it. Many meals were not, we didn't have meat. Um mm-hmm. But she would cook a big pot of beans. Beans. That's right. Monday was bean day anyway. And cornbread. And you were full. And then that was the thing is, and even on those special days when she. When we were able to have like shrimp, you know, we were limited to how many shrimp we could have, but you had to eat everything else on your plate. Mm-hmm. So, and when you did, you were okay. Yeah.
J.R.:So, while putting together some of these stories for lost restaurants, what were some of your favorite stories or favorite locations or, man, I wish I could have eaten there, or I wish I could have gone there and eaten.
Tommie Boudreaux:For me, it wasn't so much eating there, there were so many people that I wish I had been able to sit and talk to mm-hmm. To speak with them. And my favorite one was, um, well I had several favorites, but, um, Murray CourtneyMurray who had top cafe. He didn't know anything about cooking, couldn't cook according to his granddaughter. You wouldn't wanna touch any, the food he prepared, but he hired. People who could do the job, but he became very involved in the community. He was the place that was the place to find out what was going on locally, um, statewide and nationally, he sold, um, income tax. Sometimes he paid a person's money so they could vote. Um, but the other thing that he did is that he became a promoter and he brought in. Some of the best African-American talented talent in the in, in the United States. Count Basey, cap Calloway, um, Sarah Vaughn, Nat King Cole, all of those people performed right here in Galveston. He brought them here. He also provided entertainment for the military, and he was giving them discounts before it, quote unquote, became popular. Uh, But he was a, a wonderful man and, um, and so sad that, um, in the sixties, um, the city of Galveston acquired his property. His granddaughter said they did compensate him, but he didn't wanna start all over again. He also helped the people on the job. Some of them he knew. He wanted them have additional, he paid for little training courses for them. Um, and when he was 88 years old, he took on a job, part-time job, working for one of the government workforce, uh, programs. Someone asked him why was he still working? He said he just enjoy helping people. So he's one of my favorites.
Alice Gatson:One of my favorite was, uh, Wade Watkins, and he was a chef. The head chef, one of the head chefs at Gaidos. And, uh, his story was interesting as to how he came from San Antonio to Galveston, where the, and he was in the restaurant industry. So he saw an opportunity here and he, it goes, history goes back to the old Buccaneer Hotel and his roots, you know, and coming to Gaidos where he. Was given an opportunity and he took advantage of it and did what he could do. He was sent to, um, French cooking schools by the Gatos, and they thought a lot of him, and he was loyal to his job and he did what he could do to help promote them. So that was a good, I enjoyed, you know, the research on that. I also just enjoyed a fun one was, um, there's a picture back there. Sydney's drive-in one of the. Uh, the drive-ins of the time, and I do, I never got a chance to go, but I always wanted, as a little girl, we'd pass by, go to the post office because they were close to the post office. But in the daytime we might, daddy might drive us to the post office, but I look over there at the drive-in and the car hops and the cars out there, and on Sundays people would go meet, meet up there. But what I'm thinking about, After the football games. Now I got a chance the little girl daddy would take us to the football games. But the, you know, just the idea. I wish I could have gone cuz they talk about, oh, they had a good time at Sydney's Drive-in and I want it to be in that good time. Yeah.
J.R.:And we've got a photo of Sydney's Drive-in back there so we can all check it out. Um, on whenever you guys take off. Um, okay. So we are kind of running out out of a little bit of time here, so I'm sorry I did. No, you're fine. Mm-hmm. I did promise give you a little opportunity to talk a little bit about Rosewood, uh, cemetery and kind of what's going on there. And then believe the proceeds to the, this book goes to Rosewood, is that correct? Yes. Yes. Both books? Both. Both books? Yeah. Both books. So could you tell us for people listening and um, watching. Who may not know anything about Rosewood Cemetery. Could you just give us the rundown of what's going on over
Alice Gatson:there?
Tommie Boudreaux:Rosewood uh, cemetery was founded by a group of African Americans who decided that, um, African Americans needed a, a, a, um, a decent, a proper burial site. And so in 1911, a group met at Wesley Tabernacle Methodist Church. And form the Rosewood Cemetery Association. I think they all paid about$25. Um, and they purchased, I don't know what I guess they did at the fundraising too, but they purchased the land on the far west end. That was didn't have a seawall anything at the time from, uh, the Joe Levy family. And the land actually extended. To where the seawall is, to back where, as far as where Randall's is now. Uh, so it was going all the way to Broadway, up to 61st Street. Um, it was a large plot in the middle of it. That's where they decided to have the cemetery. The first was in 1912. It was, it was a child, the last barrier, uh, I think his name was Boyd. I can't remember his name was Boyd 1944. But I think with one of the storms, um, a lot of things were damaged. Then some of the African Americans found that, you know, it was a little distanced to go that far for burial. So around 1944 it really didn't exist anymore. And, um, Well, they weren't bearing of people there anymore. And as the, the associates passed on, other people had, uh, became the owners the last one to own, it was Thomas D. Armstrong, and it was discovered by someone. Was a neglected area. All the trees. In fact, I think Jamie Durham told us that that was a, a homeless person was finding a, a, place to to, mm-hmm. I guess to rest. He found this skull, and of course he called the police. They investigated this when they realized it was a cemetery. So for years it was just sitting there and apparently some of the Galveston city citizens realized it was there and they went out and cleaned it up not knowing it was private property. Uh, TD Armstrong, when TD Armstrong passed, his family sold the estate so this developer had the cemetery. So when they went out, they, this group went out and cleaned it and realized later on they were told they were on private property. Well, by then we had the African American Heritage Committee, and that's when they came to the committee and said, you know, we need to find a way to save that cemetery. So that's how it all started. And finally, with a little, took a little time, but donated the cemetery to Galveston Historical Foundation. So we had cleanup days. Um, the first time I saw it, I mean, that was sometimes even after this group had cleaned it. I mean, the weeds were so high until they were like trees. And, um, could you explain where it
Alice Gatson:is? Uh, it's, it's kind
Tommie Boudreaux:of, it's one in a weird spot. It is. It's off of 61st street. It's on 63rd Street. Mm-hmm. And I, the best way I can describe you to get there is that if you know where Golden Corral is, the restaurant on Seawall Boulevard. If you stay in your right lane, you will see the address. 63rd Street you turn right is now surrounded by motels. Uh, and we really feel that somebody may have inched a little of that cemetery. Uh, and so it is, um, we maintain it. Uh, Dr. Jones has worked on grants. In fact, at one of the board meetings, he indicated that he'd gotten a grant. We've had a group of graduate students from the University of Texas in San Antonio has come up with design of. What they could, what we could do so people can at least go out and visit. It's difficult to walk around because you never know when you're gonna step in a pothole. And I guess that's where some of the areas of, of sunk, we had a young man working on, um, I guess it's master's degree from Texas A&M that actually used the a drone to kind of go over the cemetery. And he was able to find images that looked like they may have been a casket. Mm-hmm. So, so we, we'll still working on it, it's still not, we really would like for it one day to be on GHF's, um, sacred Places Tour. But that's, that's the history of the, the cemetery. I didn't know anything about it, hadn't ever heard of it. And, uh, when we formed the, um, the African American Heritage Committee, there were people there who were, were aware of it and told us all about the history of
Alice Gatson:it. Mm-hmm. So
J.R.:to support the preservation of that, you can purchase
Tommie Boudreaux:books. Absolutely. Right. We don't get a penny. So it's there on the grounds as, um, and, and still we rise. The Galveston Juneteenth story because the space is so small and we weren't able to get everything we wanted to get in it. We are doing a companion book with the same title. Mm-hmm. And it expands so much more. Um, people that we are still finding they were born and raised in Galveston did well. So
J.R.:yeah. Wow. Okay, so we only have about five minutes left. I'm gonna open it up to Q&A from our massive audience that we have. So, uh, yeah, let's open it up. Go ahead, Mike.
Malcom:I've got one comment, one question. You had asked about other books and lost restaurant, other communities. There's actually a series that publisher does called Lost Restaurants. There are others maybe not African-American restaurants necessarily.. They have published for other cities across the country Now my question is... You were talking about where there were some restaurants. Where whites could go to the black restaurants And it was very common to see that I thought What was integration like? How did restaurants integrate in Galveston?
Tommie Boudreaux:Well, I would say that ours were somewhat peaceful. We did have sit-ins, a young man named Salton Camps, um, kind of organized a group to sit in, uh, one of the, was it Kress's? One of the, the dining areas. Woolworth, Woolworth Woo. Woolworth. It was Woolworth, Woolworth, Uhhuh. But um, on the corner, well, they really didn't have much of a problem. I think they were arrested one time, but. Because of people like Gus Allen, TD Armstrong, and some of the other well-known African-American citizens, they really didn't do a whole lot with it. And I would say that our um, integration. Um, was complete when they integrated the two schools, and that wasn't a problem either. And I think one of the reasons I said it, because Ball High inherited our athletic teams, because Central High School was known not only in sports, but in academics, academic science and everything. Prairieview, uh, college now University was, uh, the black. Interscholastic league. And if you'd go on and look at their collection, central High School was the top in almost everything and did better. It's the Houston schools and the Dallas School. So integration, wasn't it? It wasn't, it wasn't anything like it happened in other cities. Great question.
J.R.:That was a good question.
Ruth:Do you feel as if the process of writing this book has sparked more interest or joy. When you're now cooking some of these recipes in the kitchen?
Tommie Boudreaux:Oh yeah, I think so. Well, the thing I was interested in, in, in just knowing some of the recipes, you know, I, uh, one of my favorite places to dine was, um, Clary's and Clary's just is so sad, but he just happened to pass before we completed the book. And, um, some of his recipes are in there and I know what they taste like. We have recipes from my mother, in fact, in Alice's mother and, uh, Ms. Henderson, uh, Diane Henderson's mother. And these were recipes that she originally cooked. Without, um, let's say without measuring and so on, but she decided for my youngest signed wedding anniversary, she would buy the cups and spoons and all the things she needed and measured as she, as she prepared it. And so the recipe is there with all the, the measurements and quantities and so on. But, um, I've had friends who've said they've tried a lot of the recipes. There aren't a lot in there, but they've tried them. Yeah. Mm-hmm. And, and one
Alice Gatson:that's really interesting is the, uh, honey Brown barbecue sauce. No, I don't think anyone knows the secret to the sauce or really the recipe. That was one galvestonian. He's not here anymore. He passed away recently. But he swore Honey Brown gave him the recipe and it's nothing like honey. I had honey brown's barbecue and a sauce. It's nothing
Tommie Boudreaux:like it. Well, bill Cherry interviewed his wife and she said he never shared, she didn't know what he used, what rub he used on his meats, and if she didn't know,
Alice Gatson:no. Nobody. That's
J.R.:right. Mm-hmm. I really appreciate it. Tommie. Alice, this has been awesome. Thank you for kicking off the, the series at the Rosenberg. Really, really appreciate it. Um, any closing
Alice Gatson:remarks? Well, I just hope everyone enjoyed it and they really got something out of it. And, and as I said earlier, I love doing this, but, and I love it because I want the young people to know, You need to know what happened. You need to know. I always say, you need to look back so you can go forward. So that's my comment.
Tommie Boudreaux:And, and for me, it's as if I'm, I consider myself a lifelong learner. I'm learning things exactly all the time about Galveston, not just Galveston's, African American history. Galveston, I would say. Galveston, Texas built Texas. Mm-hmm. There were so many firsts here, and we are so proud that she, I heard her say when I was coming in, very proud to be a Galvestonian.
J.R.:This episode comes from the Rosenberg Library Conversation series where I sat down with a few historians to talk about some extremely interesting historical facts about Galveston and Texas history. I would like to personally thank the Rosenberg Library for allowing Galveston Unscripted to hold live podcast conversations in the library.
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Tommie Boudreaux:we were a little Las Vegas. We have all kind of names, Sin City, all those kind of things. But, we've survived.