126: Stories We Tell Ourselves

This was such a fun conversation with renowned trauma expert Janyne McConnaughey... who joins us in this episode to learn more about how internal dialogue matters... a lot!  Janyne shares invaluable insights from her professional work and personal healing journey, emphasizing the power of positive self-talk and the concept of metacognition—thinking about our thinking. This episode is designed to inspire better self-care and mindfulness in perceiving and speaking to ourselves, providing practical strategies to foster a more supportive internal narrative.

We also address the pervasive issue of negative self-talk, particularly in high-pressure environments like ministry. Reflecting on personal experiences, Janyne and I discuss how self-criticism can hinder performance and amplify the fear of judgment. We explore the importance of positive self-affirmation and the acceptance of imperfection (grace!), encouraging listeners to treat themselves with the same kindness they offer to friends. 

Tune in for an episode packed with resources and encouragement for sustainable self-care practices

Chapters

• 0:01 The Importance of Self-Talk
• 8:08 Overcoming Negative Self-Talk
• 25:04 Navigating Self-Talk Balance
• 39:47 Exploring the Stories We Tell
• 46:57 Recognizing Burnout and Seeking Help

Transcript

Margie: 0:01

Hey, there it's Margie Bryce, your host of the Crabby Pastor podcast, where we talk about all things sustainability, whether it's sustainability in ministry, in your personal life and we acknowledge that the church is in a transitional time, so we hit topics there too that are going to stretch your mind and the way you lead, especially how you lead yourself, so that you don't become the crabby pastor. Hey, there it is Margie Bryce with the Crabby Pastor podcast, and we talk about all things self-care here, in an effort to be good stewards with the body that God has given to us so that we may serve God's purposes wholeheartedly and be able to present to God our best. Just food and exercise, because you can scroll through all the podcasts and just see how often I talk about food and exercise, even though I I attempt to work on that area of my life, always, always. But I see self care in a bigger, as a bigger picture.

Margie: 1:19

And I am here today or Janine is here with us today, I guess is a better way to say that and we're going to talk about the way we talk to ourselves, or self-talk. I know I can be very guilty of that and at times I've realized that I've done it, and then I think that it's no big deal and I move on to something else. It's not a big deal at all and and I'm coming to a deeper understanding that does make a difference. It absolutely does make a difference. So I'm here with Janine McConaughey who has done a lot of trauma related stuff. That's a theological word, Janine, just so you know stuff. They taught me that in seminary.

Janyne: 2:12

It's the one thing I retain, no hopefully I retain they taught me in academics.

Margie: 2:18

I know. So, janine, introduce us again. I know you've been on the podcast before, but go ahead and introduce yourself and feel free to share with us the most recent things you're working on.

Janyne: 2:31

So, first of all, thank you for having me again. When the note came through, I was like, oh, I love conversations with Marty, so I'm happy to be here today and I really have taken a couple months to do some further healing and kind of step back from a lot of things, and this is actually my first podcast back into the game, and so we'll see how this goes today. But my latest endeavor is that I have a sub stack that I'm doing and it's a mixture of the work I do with survivors, the work I do with religious trauma, the work I do with trauma-based spiritual a and just the writing that I do. I wrote a book, hotel Candelabra and it's just a kind of an allegory, and so sometimes it's just my writing. So, anyway, so I am basically getting back into the game right now, but my sub stack is my favorite thing that I'm doing. As far as my work right now.

Margie: 3:46

Yes, I just read your, your entry. I think it was today. It was really it's interesting stuff because it just again with the stuff. I apologize, but it was just really interesting reading and it really kind of makes you think. And that that to me, even when I was in ministry, when somebody said to me, wow, pastor, you really made me think. I felt like I'd hit a home run. That was it for me. I'm not sure what that says about me, but I'm sure something. But anyway, I feel like that's a good thing because there needs to be more thinking. Today the thinking department sometimes seems to be underused in some cases.

Janyne: 4:31

That's interesting because my students you know, I taught at the college level for 33 years and my students would walk out of class and say your classes make my brain hurt. I go oh good, good, good, that means that you're thinking my brain hurt. I go oh good, good, good, that means that you're thinking. And so I generally take a different perspective than is expected and so, yeah. So, thank you for reading and, yeah, today's was interesting, so it's a whole. We're doing a whole. My husband and I together are doing a series on we Do Therapy and when two trauma kids married each other and all the lessons that we've learned. We celebrated our 45th anniversary last week and so, yeah, so that's one of the threads that will pick up again in September.

Margie: 5:21

Well, we want to talk about why self-talk is so important. You want to start us off and I'm sure we'll get rolling.

Janyne: 5:35

That question is so big.

Margie: 5:37

I know, I know. Did you ever know? I used to be a newspaper reporter.

Janyne: 5:44

Oh no, I didn't know that. Yeah, yeah, that's how I can ask respectable questions.

Janyne: 5:51

Well, it's a respectable question. So why is self-talk so important? And I think that everything that we do is affected by what we believe about ourselves. That we do is affected by what we believe about ourselves. And, of course, in my work that I do with trauma. You know, a traumatic event can happen, but trauma is actually the impact of what happens to us as a result of that traumatic event and our ability to find support and process it and get it out of our body and all those kinds of things. So when we talk about self-talk, then we are going to be limited in everything we do by what we believe about ourselves. And self-talk is basically what we believe about ourselves coming out as something verbal in our head and I thought about, I wanted, I wanted, I thought about metacognition. Okay, this is the educator I'm going to show up with cognition.

Janyne: 6:53

Okay, I love that word. I may say it again a couple times. Anyway, what it is is thinking about your thinking. So, it's your own thoughts and your own cognitive processes and and, and that is what you're supposed to do, and and so self-talk is a form of that. It's a form of thinking about your thinking. But if it's, if it's negative about yourself, then then you're not really reflecting on it.

Margie: 7:26

So let me just see if I'm getting this, making sure that I'm understanding. So if I say boy, I really stink at that, okay. And then you say to yourself wow, why did I say that about myself? That's thinking about your thinking. Yes, some people don't make it that far, though to the why am I saying that about myself?

Janyne: 7:53

Right.

Janyne: 7:55

And so metacognition allows you to think about what you just said, because we always I don't know that there's a human being alive that, like you're in the middle of some.

Janyne: 8:08

I started going to the senior center and doing yoga, you know, and if there's any place that negative self-talk is going to show up for me, it's in yoga, because I haven't gone for a while and I'm like, why can't I do this? Right? So, by the way, really really healthy for me, it's the best self-care that I that I can possibly physically do, and so, but but then I need to stop and think well, why do I feel that way about myself? I said because I'm so concerned about what other people are thinking and I look around the room and everybody else is just focused on doing the, the pose, right, they're not looking at me, they can't, they can't look at me and do what they're doing, right. And so it takes that extra step, that metacognition, to realize why I'm saying those things about myself during yoga, right, and you're right, if you don't go there, then you, just you begin to believe what you said and you begin to be more and more negative about yourself and then you, it inhibits what you're able to do, and especially if we're talking about ministry, if you're constantly telling yourself you're terrible at it, then you're going to be terrible at it.

Margie: 9:19

Right. Isn't that funny? I mean because would we think it's egotistical to say I am an amazing pastor? Nobody is better than me. I mean, now we're wandering into egotistical a bit but I think it does impact your performance. I know for me, when I first got up to preach, I would just about break out in hives, my neck would get all red and whatever. And the more I did it and the more I stepped into it, I started doing better. But at one point what I said to myself is put your head up, your shoulders back and step into that thing that God has called you to do. I started saying that to myself as I walked up to the podium, up to the microphone and and then, um, it made a difference.

Janyne: 10:20

Yes, yes, because if you're sitting there waiting your turn and you're thinking, oh, am I going to say something stupid when I get up there, Inevitably you will say something stupid when you get up there.

Margie: 10:33

Well, that's not a comfort, is it? That's nothing.

Janyne: 10:39

I mean, you just are like no, you have to stop yourself to go. Why do I think that? I think that because of and you can go back and you usually your subconscious will take you to the exact incident that you just died with shame because of it, and you get stuck there and think it's going to happen again and again. But yeah, and sometimes I mean and then like what, what is your definition of doing something stupid, what every other human does? You know that you mess up your words or you say stuff right, like why did I in that podcast, why did I keep saying stuff?

Margie: 11:16

oh, thanks, now I'll be thinking about that.

Janyne: 11:20

There is no, you were already thinking about it.

Margie: 11:24

No, I was done. Thinking about it Really though, you know, feeling like you're a failure and saying that to yourself, feeling like you are worthless or I'm a bad pastor. I mean, I've said that in jest. I'm not serving actively in ministry right now, but when I did, at certain points I'd say man, I'm a bad pastor. You know, like they send you to the bad pastor the sin bin, like in hockey, or something Time out for you, but it does change your moment in a really interesting way, Do you think?

Janyne: 12:07

I think so, and when we say I am a human being who's doing the very best job that I can at being a pastor right now, and I'm not perfect, and it is okay not to be perfect, then it allows you the space to be a human being. I think that sometimes we just beat ourselves up for being human, right and not perfect, and not perfect and no one is and no one really expects anyone else to be either. I mean, if we're really honest, we rather like it when other people are human, because then we feel less pressure on ourselves to meet some standard that can never be met, to meet some standard that can never be met, and so, but I think, I think that it does, it does affect us, it affected when you would walk up having those thoughts in your head as, instead of thinking, you know what I know, I know what's important to say today and and I may not say it perfectly, but that's okay, because I don't have to be perfect and it's okay.

Margie: 13:29

Yeah, yeah. And then tying that back into our identity in Christ and what we are called to do and to be about, and stepping in. I mean I think I'm pretty sure, I'm pretty sure that God knows we're not perfect.

Janyne: 13:47

What do?

Margie: 13:47

you think, but at the same time, at the same time, the stuff there I am again the stuff we say to ourselves about ourselves are things that typically we would not say to other people.

Janyne: 14:05

Oh, we wouldn't, we would never, we would not say those things to other people. I mean your best friend, even, right, you know, we mean, and I'm I'm looking across the way my best friend lives One of my best friends lives right next door to me, you know and so I'm looking across the way my best friend lives One of my best friends lives right next door to me, you know and so I'm looking over at it, into their yard, and I'm like I would stop her, right, if she was saying that. I would say wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. What are we? What are we saying? What are we saying here? And because it just hinders, it hinders relationships, it hinders everything. And but the thing is, is that you, you can't stop yourself.

Janyne: 14:46

I think that's an important point to make. Is that, is that we're huge? That's another part of being human. Is that, when something, when we do something, immediately shame starts to attack us and say well, you did that. There's just something horribly wrong with you and there's something you know you're never going to mount, you're going to, you're worthless, you're never going to. You know you're always going to make these mistakes, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. You know. And then shame sets in and the thing to do is to be like oh, I recognize you. Shame, I recognize you. I see you trying to take control of my life and make me believe things about myself that is not true, and then you can step back from it and say, no, what I believe about myself is again I'm an imperfect human who's doing the very best job that I can, especially in ministry. And I think you have to say that a lot, because you're never, you're never going to get it exactly right.

Margie: 15:50

And sometimes the sheep will tell you. Right right, the sheep bite sometimes right.

Janyne: 15:58

Like as an author, I get so little pushback. I mean, I've just been so blessed by that, I have amazing supporters and people who follow along with my writing and things. But but I I have to know that I won't always get it right. And somebody will ask me a question and sometimes it creates and I'm like, oh wow, I wonder why I said that in there and I realized that there's something that I need to go process and think about more, and then I'll usually come back and write something about that. Right, so it's actually actually it's a learning experience. If we can be curious about why we're saying the negative things toward ourself that we do the negative things toward ourself that we do, then we can be curious about where did that begin? Where did that particular feeling about myself begin? And it's curiosity that turns it into a learning experience instead of a negative experience.

Margie: 17:00

Well, that's pretty powerful stuff If you can stop yourself and do thinking about your thinking thing and then if you start to see a pattern of this, I think I'm starting to be on the lookout for it. You know saying, oh, I'm useless or what do I think, why do I think I'm great I guess imposter syndrome fits in here somehow as well If you get to the place where you just are questioning the legitimacy of your call, of your ability to serve. I think one of the podcasts that I get a lot of hits on is one called Am I Enough? That one seems to be pretty popular. That seems to be a question that you know, and no, none of us are enough for this task, and that's why we have to be relying on god, god's power, in our heart and in our lives and as we serve.

Janyne: 18:08

But for some reason that still doesn't turn off the ticket, you know I think that I don't push back a little right there, because I think that when God creates us, we are enough right. God doesn't create us and say, oh, I'm creating you is not enough, you're probably not You're not enough you never were, you never will be right. So I think, on one hand, I know that because we are human.

Janyne: 18:39

On one hand, I know that, because we are human, that we do need to depend on God walking with us and giving us wisdom and helping us to do the right thing, but that needs to be separated over here from who we were created to be, which I believe that you know and you can push back to me too. But I believe that we are created with the gifts and the talents and everything that we need to walk in partnership with God and do the important work that God is calling us to do. And so and I think that I think that that has been really important to me, especially because I spent so long not doing what God gifted me to do, so I did not publish my first book until I was 65. Even though, even though, in when I was working on my doctorate, they said you're, you're the best natural writer in the cohort. You, even though, when I did, I mean, self-studies at colleges are like, not interesting writing Right. And and they, they said the self-study team said this is the most enjoyable self-study we've ever read.

Janyne: 20:03

Then I I mean, and this was just repeated to me over and over again, and yet I didn't get it, because, because I didn't believe I could really be an author and it took me months of therapy and my therapist trying to get me to understand that, yes, this is your gift. So where did that begin? Right, because I was born with that ability. Yes, I honed it. Yes, I, you know, worked on it. Yes, I spent my whole life writing for other projects, etc. But I was born to be a writer and and I had everything I needed to do that.

Margie: 20:46

But I didn't believe in myself and uh yeah yeah, oh there, and there was negative self-talk in that. You know, what do I think I'm doing? Why do I think I can do that? Or?

Janyne: 21:00

right clear. Up until the time I won two awards on Tarama and the Fuse, I was still doing that negative. Well, you know, people are buying it. Yeah, maybe I say some important things. And so the two awards that the book won. This is really funny. The two awards are very different from each other. One of them is is just, is more of a pure, pure writer, and the other one is how the book is constructed and how and so it. It really is the publisher side of it, and so you know, I mean I, I have to put the content in there. The publisher has to work with the content. But it's more of a combination. But by the time I'd won two awards, I was like, okay, I give up. God, yes, you created an author.

Margie: 21:43

All right, I'm good Then you were able to give that kind of self-talk to yourself. Right, I am a fill in the blanket, I know. Recently I went to some coaching development work out at a university, work out at a university and it was amazing stuff in that we were learning to identify when people say I am fill in the blank about themselves, and then as coaches that that is an important thing to listen for and then to follow up on or really say more about that or why, why do you say that about yourself? All of those kinds of things. So that's kind of not a point of Genesis, but it was a really re-emphasis of that self-talk piece.

Janyne: 22:38

Well, okay, so let's talk about a lot of the messages that we give out, give get in the church. You know the idea which, theologically, I completely agree with, disagree with. Disagree with that. We're worthless that we are. You know the whole exegesis of being wicked. I mean that you need to go do a whole study on that one and so forth.

Janyne: 23:06

But there's a there's a prevailing in some theological camps. There's a prevailing feeling that you are and I and I it. So part of that is theological. So I did my dissertation on the view of the child from innocence to non-innocence and I studied all of the theological trains that you know, all the way from back from Plato, aristotle, through all the major theologians, through all the denominations, and what their view of the child was, and it ranged from innocent to born sinful, completely sinful and wicked, and you can trace those all the way down and how the teaching methodologies and things are chosen as a result of that.

Janyne: 23:51

So I think we have to understand that theologically, you have to really dissect how that is affecting you and how that is playing into what you say about yourself, like the fear of pride, right, like that came up actually a little bit earlier and I was going to say something. You know not to be prideful. Well, there's a difference between owning what you're good at and being prideful about what you're good at. Okay, so if I'm prideful about being an author, then I'm. I'm going to go say you know, I'm a better author than anyone else.

Janyne: 24:30

I'm going to, you know, I'm going to say things like that If I just own being an author, I'm saying I was born to be an author. I'm, I'm gifted as a writer and I can just own that. And that isn't pride, that's just that's owning what I, the gift that I was given. Yeah, that's different self-talk there and that is.

Margie: 24:52

That is definitely different self-talk, and I think scripture says we should not have a view that is too high of ourselves, but we also should not have a view that is too high of ourselves, but we also should not have a view that is too low. That is the Margie Gregg probably poor rendition of what Paul says not to think too highly or too lowly, but and that's true, you know, not thinking too lowly either ties in with what we're talking about in terms of how we speak to ourselves. I don't know, maybe we should go, look in the mirror and have to really face yourself when you're saying some of these things. I don't know if that would make it better, worse or make you think about what you're thinking about and saying about to yourself a little more.

Janyne: 25:41

It's interesting because I'm speaking at a conference this Saturday, one of the small church conferences, and I did a and anyone listening to this podcast. If you want a copy of this, I'll just email me and I'll give it to you. But I took the piece out of Trauma in the Pews, which is a trauma, informed spiritual practice and I talk about. I talk about self affirmation. So one of the things that I say is to walk up and stand in front of the mirror and say things to yourself in the mirror and that is the absolutely like positive statements to yourself in the mirror is one of the most difficult things. That for someone with a low image of themselves, for them to do and and it's and and that you're right.

Janyne: 26:32

The balance is not to be looking in the mirror and going you are just the best. Yeah, I know it's totally different thing, but just to look in the mirror and say you know, I am loved by God, I was created with gifts and talents for me to serve and make this world a better place, and I can work on those. And let me tell you when I say that I'm an author and that I'm a gifted author, I know I can give you the list of 10 things that I cannot do, that I can't do well, right. And the things that my editors catch me on every single time, right. So it's not that I'm a perfect author. I need editors and Grammarly. You know, nothing goes out without going through Grammarly, and so so there's just this balance that we have to find that right there in the sweet spot in the middle, wherever we accept both the things that were, that were created and gifted in, the things that well yeah, oh yeah, I'm gonna do that in everything.

Janyne: 27:43

Oh my gosh, I did it again. And so um and I just, but I'm to the point where I just laugh at it, like how many times will it take before? And I do get better, you know, but if I start beating myself up about it, it doesn't do any good yeah, no, it doesn't.

Margie: 27:59

It doesn't, it is. It is strangely like you're being prophetic about yourself when you live in that negative space. And it says things in scripture like as a person thinks. So they are Right, I mean.

Janyne: 28:20

I actually looked that up. You said that because right before I was sitting here and I'm like, oh, I'm going actually looked that up. That is so interesting. You said that because right before I was sitting here and I'm like, oh, I'm gonna look that up.

Janyne: 28:27

And what's so interesting about that is that that verse is about who we show to others and who we actually are like. Like, if you look at the whole context around that it's it's about someone who invites you to their party and then they say all sorts of good things about someone who invites you to their party and then they say all sorts of good things about you, but they're in their heart they're thinking something totally different, and that you should be cautious about just accepting all the nice things that they say, because they may not. So I have never, ever looked at the entire context around that verse and and so what I realized is that that we ourselves need to be. The flip side of that is that we need to be honest about who we are, and being honest doesn't, for some reason we think, being honest about ourselves mean we have to be negative about ourselves.

Margie: 29:21

Yeah, that sounds right. Yeah, if I'm honest with myself, I'm going to say this, this and this, and how I missed the mark, whatever it is. You know you do do that kind of thing. But I love that when scripture bears out our psychology. But think about this, everybody that pushes back on psychology and I got called on it once for I preached a sermon and it was using a sermon form that I had actually been taught at NTS by Dr Dan Boone you give the sociology of a situation and you give the psychology of a situation.

Margie: 30:05

Then you bring in the theology. It's kind of an well, since when is why we do the things we do? Somehow out of God's purview or or out of theological discussion? And then you run into verses like, as a person thinks, so they are, you know, and even how the context works and everything. And I love it when the scripture uh, not validates psychology, but it certainly shows that God's aware of what we do, things we do and how we work. I mean, if God is the author and constructor of us, I think that that's probably something that's important.

Janyne: 31:07

You know, over the past couple couple years, polyvagal theory has become more prominent what is that?

Margie: 31:17

just going for the biggest word used on the podcast I have done.

Janyne: 31:22

I have done metacognition and polyvagal theory. All right, okay, I can't can.

Margie: 31:29

See, there's my negative self-talk. I can't keep up.

Janyne: 31:34

And so that's kind of what I do is I go and I study all this and then I kind of distill it so I can distill polyvacal. And actually I have another freebie that I gave away at a conference, if anyone's interested in that one too. I did it during the pandemic about just breathe and okay. So when you, when you are having a really stressful day, and all of a sudden you sigh Like I'm the best sire in the whole world and and what I came to realize is that we have a nerve, that it's a multi, it's called the wandering nerve and it runs all throughout our body. It connects our brain to every part of our body and it has two parts. I'm really simplifying, like all my friends, like you made that a little too simple, janine, okay so. So it has two different parts and and you stay in balance by those parts either slowing down, being at rest all of that is controlled by this nerve in your body. So what I began to understand is that that kind of breath is how you, how your body, is trying to bring that nerve back into balance. Okay, so you, just you think about it and after you sigh really big like that, then you're kind of you feel like you can keep moving and do whatever.

Janyne: 33:01

I had a place where I where I would walk through the building and I actually have one of my sub stacks just on this, which does a much better job than I'm doing right now but when I would get ready to walk into the admin offices, I would sigh by the secretary there every time, and one day she stopped me. She said do you know, you sigh every time you walk by me and I'm like, oh my gosh, I don't know why I do that, but now I do Because I was trying to calm my nervous system. It's the autonomic nervous system. That is just how God created us. That is how God created us, and we have so many ways that we can. And actually the project I'm working on, which is Trauma and the Puce 2.0, is talking about how we can use the pause and how we can understand how our bodies work so that we calm ourselves instead of going into the negativity. And so, anyway, I don't know how I got on that, but well, you just wanted to say polyvagal, what?

Janyne: 34:15

polyvagal, what polyvagal theory? I know. So the. So the man, the researcher who introduced this to the world, um, I got to introduce him to a seminar one day, on the line and and before we were in the green room together and we talked about grandchildren and you know, and I was just like, and I was just like you know everything that I want to learn about this and it, you know, and I was just like, I was just like you know everything that I want to learn about this and it's so deep that I, you know, I can't. But then he was just a human being and he calmed me, right, just his very presence. And I mean I was supposed to be the person that was introducing him and he was calming me because I was in the room with him.

Janyne: 34:49

And I just think, I think about how our lack of understanding about our bodies and the ways that our body reacts to the world around us reacts to whether we feel safe emotionally or physically. Children in the classroom who do not feel safe cannot learn. We cannot interact well with other people unless we are able to help our body feel safe, and so the internal self-talk that we're talking about is many times a result of that, of our bodies being out of whack and not being able to find the pause and to calm ourselves, and so, and we can't live. I posted. I posted on Facebook, I don't know if you saw it. I posted this is how we want life to be, and there's this straight road that's just going straight off into the distance and it's just flat and smooth, right, and this is how life really is, and it was a roller coaster and I think, when you are under stress, when you neglect to slow down, to slow down, I think that is when my brain seems to fire a lot more negativity.

Janyne: 36:23

Yes, I don't know.

Margie: 36:23

And that's because you feel unsafe in your own body as soon as you emotionally or physically or in the situation you go toward the, the negative which is kind of built into us as a protective measure, and and um, when a lion might eat us and we feel right, right that, like I don't feel safe right here because there's lions around and there's and and um, the same reactions occur in our body even though we don't have lions roaming across our neighborhoods right now I mean, I'm thinking about pastors and I was contemplating this and how I'm going to roll this out, but allowing pastors to have conversation about leading people in this election cycle, you know, and Because a lot of people don't feel safe, you don't feel safe.

Margie: 37:17

Regardless, I'm not going to wax and wane political here at all, but I'm saying people are hearing this and that and this and that, and sometimes you don't know what to think and then you just don't feel safe. And then, as a leader in a faith community, how do you address that and how do you lead in the midst of that? And I'd like to be able to have conversation with ministry leaders about that, because it's very easy to go negative, especially when there's a lot of negative around.

Janyne: 37:52

Right, right, and, and I you know, so some days I'll be on Facebook. I do, I do research on Facebook. I'm just always watching seeing how people are reacting to those kinds of things, Cause that helps me as a writer. But anyway, sometimes somebody will post a meme and somebody else will post a meme, and I'm like like, wait a minute, they are on completely polar opposite sides of this whole thing we're dealing with, but they just posted the same thing to prove their point right.

Janyne: 38:20

The point actually is is that neither one of them feel safe, and and all of the all of the fear-mongering is making it worse, whether it's about this side or about this side. It is disrupting their ability to stay calm in their own bodies, and and then they go to the negative, and then they and and so, but it is. It's all about feeling safe in our own body, but if we respond to everything with negative self-talk, then we don't feel safe in our own head because we're being so, I mean okay, that's a really scary thought feeling safe in your own head, or then you don't feel safe at all Right, like you're having a really, really bad day and you just need somebody to just be like wow, that that's tough, that is a really tough day and the only person around is yourself and you're going why are you, why can't you right you?

Janyne: 39:23

so you're, you're the person you need you, you, you are the one you need in that moment.

Margie: 39:31

And negative self-talk does does not causes you to be unsafe with yourself and that's a, that's a, an equally big deal and and um, I think I will save that for our next conversation. But the story you tell yourself about yourself, right, is an extension of what we're talking about, because you can have the facts in front of you, you know, and facts are things that you see, things that you hear, but then we always take what we hear and what we see and we make a narrative about it and whether that is something that you are talking about, something separate from yourself, but it also bears truth in what you're, the story you're telling yourself about yourself. I bet there's a fancy big word for that too, that I don't know.

Janyne: 40:37

All right, I will. I will try. I don't always come up with them. I use them when I come up with them, but if somebody asks me what the word is, I'm done.

Janyne: 40:44

I have no idea, okay. So one thing, one thing that I want to say about that, because what you just said is so important, like the story we tell about ourselves. And where did that story begin? Okay, the story we tell about ourselves is buried inside of the of whatever happened to us as children, and of course, I talk about trauma, I talk about sexual abuse, I talk about all these things. You do not have to have that kind of story to be affected by something that happened to you as a child. And so I I posted, I posted a sub stack last Saturday about moving, and the research says that if you move between the ages of 10 and 15, if you moved then you have a I'm going to probably get the number right but like 41% greater chance of being depressed as an adult.

Janyne: 41:41

And if you move twice or more during that period, you have a 68% chance that greater chance that you will be suffer with depression as an adult. So what happens to you and for the most part we just take for granted yeah, we moved, you know, several times. You know it was hard, I had to go to a new school, you know, but we downplay that and don't realize that those things affected what we came to believe about ourselves. So sometimes, sometimes, when I say something negative, I can actually hear the person saying it. Okay, whether I can, whether it was a teacher, whether it was my mother, whether it was a sibling, whether sometimes I can actually know whose voice that is being said in. And so so those things are, and that's where you have to be curious once again.

Janyne: 42:38

You know what, what causes you to to be anxious in situations, to feel clumsy, to feel all of those things. And for me, it's generally how many times I started a new school? Every year, from fifth grade to 10th grade. So for five solid years I went to a new school every single year, and my anxiety of going into new situations is just off the charts sometimes. And my survival skills that I use to walk into the room, own the room and step into it and find my place there is also a phenomenal thing. But before I'm able to do that, I die of anxiety. And so these things are and I'm like why? You know you're going to do a good job once you get in there. Why do you have to be so negative about yourself? Oh, because of what happened to me all those years.

Margie: 43:40

Right, and sometimes just acknowledging that yes Moment is is enough to diffuse it.

Janyne: 43:50

Right, I mean I just stop and I give my younger self a hug and say you know what I got this one? I'm not 10 years old anymore, going to a brand new school in a new state. No, I'm not. I know how to do this, I can go in and I can do this, and so yeah, instead of being upset with that younger part of me that gets all anxious, they just need a hug, because that was hard, it was so hard, and so yeah, just to have compassion. So there's another word the self-compassion.

Margie: 44:27

The self-compassion is a big deal. This is a big deal because you are nicer to other people frequently than you are to yourself. Yes, you are.

Janyne: 44:41

We are.

Margie: 44:41

We all are. Yes, we are. And with that I'm going to wrap this episode up, this episode up, and I'm going to kind of give a little bit of a teaser here for what we're going to talk about next, because we are talking about stories we tell ourselves. But then I'd like to continue our conversation, janine, with women and the stories we tell ourselves, especially in the religious environment.

Janyne: 45:14

Yes, important topic, absolutely, thank you.

Margie: 45:23

So how do the pieces of your life fit together? Do they fit together well and things are humming along just fine, or are there some pieces that are tight or absent or just not fitting the bill? This is your invitation to join me in my glass workshop for a video series, where I am going to do a stained glass project while I talk to you about sustainability and building sustainability into your heart and into your life. So I am going to be doing my art, which is a form of self-care, and I'm going to invite you into that space with me and I'm going to chat. I'm going to chat about self-care and I'm going to show you how I create, and there's a nifty, nifty analogy Stained glass seems to be a very good metaphor for what I want to talk about. So I'd love for you to join me. To do that, to opt in, I'll need you to email me at crabbypastor at gmailcom. That's crabbypastor at gmailcom. So you won't want to miss this. You definitely won't want to miss this. So make a plan to join me in the glass workshop. Make a plan to join me in the glass workshop.

Margie: 46:57

Are you wondering whether your fatigue, your lack of motivation, your lack of interest is burnout Maybe. I just wanted to let you know that I have a resource on the website, margiebricecom that's b-r-y-c-e. Margiebricecom and it is a burnout questionnaire free for you to download and kind of self-assess and get a sense of where you're at. There are questions that not only ask about what you're going through but maybe how often you're experiencing it and that's kind of a key to where you might be, because you have to know where you are in order to chart a course forward. And most pastors who experience pastors and ministry leaders who experience burnout rarely know that that's where they're at until they're well into it. And if you're unsure about that little statistic, so far, everybody that I've interviewed on this podcast who has experienced burnout, when I ask that kind of question, they're like, yeah, I didn't know that's where I was at. So again, go to margiebricecom it's on the home page of the website and you can get your burnout questionnaire and kind of see where you're at.

Margie: 48:29

Hey friends, the Crabby Pastor podcast is sponsored by Bryce Art Glass and you can find that on Facebook. I make stained glass as part of my self-care and also by Bryce Coaching, where I coach ministry leaders and business leaders, and so the funds that I generate from coaching and from making stained glass is what is supporting this podcast, and I will have opportunities for you to be a part of sponsoring me and, as always, you can do the buy me a cup of coffee thing in the in the show notes. But I will have some other ways that you can be a part of getting the word out about the importance of healthy self care for ministry leaders. Hey, thanks for listening. It is my deep desire and passion to champion issues of sustainability in ministry and for your life, so I'm here to help.

Margie: 49:39

I stepped back from pastoral ministry and I feel called to help ministry leaders create and cultivate sustainability in their lives so that they can go the distance with God and whatever plans that God has for you. I would love to help, I would consider it an honor and, in all things, make sure you connect to these sustainability practices you know so that you don't become the Crabby Pastor.