KAF Digital Bank: Breaking Barriers with CEO Rafiza Ghazali

In this episode, Rafiza Ghazali, CEO, KAF Digital Bank, shares her unexpected journey into finance. From starting at an accounting firm to navigating crises, Rafiza's career has been shaped by seizing opportunities.
Rafiza explains the importance of understanding the needs of underserved small business owners and leveraging digital tools to provide them with banking facilities. As she navigates the balance between innovation and regulatory compliance, Rafiza is committed to redefining financial inclusion through digital transformation in the banking sector.

KAF Digital Bank is one of the five recipients of Malaysia’s digital banking licences, awarded by Bank Negara Malaysia in April 2022. It is also one of only two digital banks designated to operate under the Islamic Financial Services Act 2013, offering Shariah-compliant banking services. In December 2024, KAF Digital Bank received regulatory approval to commence operations, marking a key milestone in its launch. 

Transcript

AIBP: 0:00

Some careers follow a clear, pre planned trajectory. Others are shaped by unexpected opportunities. Rafiza Ghazali's journey from corporate restructuring during the 1998 financial crisis to leading carve digital bank is a story of adaptability and seizing the right moments. Now at the forefront of Malaysia's digital banking revolution, she reflects on how she got here.

Rafiza - KAF: 0:23

Never in my mind that I thought one day I'll be in a bank and even be a CEO of a bank. You know, I think a lot of over the years where I've been to unlike, you know, some people where they're very different. They really know what they want, right? So in my case, I was like, I know I wanted to be in finance, but finance is very broad, and for me, all the various steps comes from opportunity.

AIBP: 0:56

Stepping into the digital banking space comes with new challenges. Operating entirely online means balancing compliance trust and innovation. Ensuring regulatory stability is just as crucial as pushing boundaries.

Rafiza - KAF: 1:10

We need to make sure that everything that we do, rather than put innovation at the forefront, we need to make sure that they comply with regulation. No point in us trying to be innovative, but, you know, it can't meet the bank narrow requirements. So those, those are the main criteria that we put, you know, when we first, you know, did this project and and it's same thing with the other digital banks as well.

AIBP: 1:39

Financial inclusion is at the heart of calf. Digital banks mission. Traditional banking models often exclude small business owners due to a lack of formal documentation. Alternative data driven approaches are changing this

Rafiza - KAF: 1:53

if we have data through their like. In this case, you know store hub, store hub, escort data of you know, the small business owners as well. So so that then from there, you can understand their credit, you know, the credit behavior, as opposed to, you know, bank statements and you know financial, yes, they do help them, but you know that's more than just three months, you know, financial what bank statements, when you know, we can take a look at, you know, what's their one year behavior track record, and from there, you know, can we apply some sort of an alternative credit scoring where, you know, they may be able to get financing, compared to, You know, otherwise, if they have to go to a traditional bank,

AIBP: 2:44

from navigating the financial crisis to pioneering digital banking, Rafiza journey is a testament to adaptability and leadership. Please enjoy this episode from the AIBP ASEAN B to B growth podcast.

Unknown: 3:02

The AIBP ASEAN beach to be growth podcast is a series of fireside chats with business leaders in Southeast Asia focused on growth in the region. Topics discussed include business strategy, sales and marketing, enterprise, technology and innovation.

Vanessa Kwan: 3:29

Hello and welcome to the ASEAN B to B growth podcast, where we sit down with individuals responsible for driving growth within their organizations here in Southeast Asia. My name is Vanessa, and I'll be your host for today. In this episode, we are excited to have Miss Rafiza Ghazali, the Chief Executive Officer of KAF Digital Bank. KAF Digital Bank is actually one of the five successful applicants granted the digital banking license by Bank Negara Malaysia. Rafiza brings with her a wealth of experience to the role with over 26 years of experience in the financial industry. Rafiza, thank you for joining us today. To kick off our conversation, I would love to explore how your various experiences in the financial sector have led you to where you are today. Maybe you could share with us a little bit about your journey, how you ended up at KAFKAF Digital Bank, and also how, basically, it has shaped your experiences.

Rafiza - KAF: 4:25

Thanks, Vanessa and AIBP for having me. Well, yeah, I was just given the thought of it. You know, when I first started, I was just, I was just recalling when I first started my first job. Never in my mind that I thought, one day I'll be in a bank and even be a CEO of a bank, you know, I think a lot of over the years where I've been to unlike, you know, some people where they're very different, they really know what they want, right? So in my case, I was like. Like, I know I wanted to be in finance, but finance is very broad and and for me, all the various steps comes from opportunity, which, you know, there's pros and cons. You know that. I know some people say that, Oh, you you need to plan your career goals. You need to, you know, to me, it's, that's, that's a whole exciting bit of the journey. You know, you come across something that you didn't really anticipate, and then you see the opportunity. So that's been sort of my career parts. And if I look at, you know, if I were to look at my CV, and then I see, you know, there's various, various, there's various experience, although, you know, they're all within the embed of either finance or, you know, of corporates, you know, I' ve not, I've not gone out and try entrepreneurship, you know, if that's what I'm saying. So, you know, over the 26 years, it's, it's been more of working in a corporate it started off with an accounting firm. I knew I wanted a certification. Even when I was doing my degree, I was doing accounting and finance at university, I knew that I just didn't want to just go to the work, you know, with just a degree. I wanted something more to it, I think, especially at that time, I remember this, you're talking, you know, in the mid 1990s or even early 1990s and a degree alone is not enough. And hence why, you know, I really wanted to do a certification, and I started off and of course, to do to get a chartered accountant, I have to work with an accounting firm. So that's how I started. And then after that, the crisis came. The crisis came, and I was, you know, I was due to come back to Malaysia all that time, no one was hiring and, and especially, you know, someone with just having the, you know, sort of in the early years, the people were being laid off so and, and the one of the most exciting thing to do at that time was corporate restructuring. So I joined a special purpose vehicle that was set up by the government to, you know, to buy overnight performing loans from the financial industry. So I thought, you know, okay, that would be a great way for me, you know, to get into the thing and, and, and, luckily, it's probably one of my best decision in terms of career, because I get to see a lot, not just from, you know, the the company itself, the company that you know, we restructure, but also from the standpoint of what it means to the financial institution that we buy the NPR from, you know, and from there you sort of learn, like, you know, what happened? What could the financial institution do better? Etc, etc. So, so that sort of opened my mind. And then along the way, you know, I've had various experience, but it's sort of within and now I'm back to financial, you know, industry. So I started off with financial industry bailing out, you know, banks that you know, that were laden with NPL, and now I'm, you know, back, you know, working in a bench. And when we had the COVID 19, right? It sort of when that happened. It brought memories to the town when I was going through the 1998 financial crisis, because there were a lot of companies that got into trouble. And at that time, I was cradle, so we were, you know, we were at, at the stage where we can actually help the startups. So, so before, you know, during 1998 crisis, when I was at Dana Hartle, we were helping out the the the borrowers, you know. And then the COVID 19 is the same, same business model, similar business model, you know, you have the assistance, you know, you have startups in trouble, so, and, and, and everyone was just, you know, trying to figure out what to do, you know. So it's sort of, it's sort of brought back memories to what I experienced in IPA, so, you know, like, so I've seen a different spectrum of, you know, helping out borrowers, being a borrower being an issue. And then now I'm back at a financial institution, yeah.

Vanessa Kwan: 9:37

So you've basically gone one wrong from managing NPL, you know, in ganahata days you mentioned earlier during the 1998 financial crisis. And you've also kind of helped to spearhead the innovation initiatives at some Derby back then. Yeah, and then you wanted to be with cradle, you know, how has all these different experiences to a certain extent, I would say it involves risk management. Management as well as innovation. How has it kind of influenced your current mindset and your current drive for digital banking? Well, we will go more deeper into your current and tough, but maybe we can start with that.

Rafiza - KAF: 10:13

Yeah, yeah. So you know, you know, as you know, so when I was, when I was at Sam W, right at that time. You know, it was an early stage where, you know companies, especially very established companies, trying to be innovative. But you know, being innovative, and especially if you are a very established organization, you need to have sound risk management control within the organization. Because, you know, the heart, the chances of the concept fail is very high. So what do you do? What are the things that you need to take into consideration to sort of both back the people that has the innovation, and also the board of directors? Because, you know, hey, you know, you were doing something new. We're doing something which no one does and so and as you know, the fear of people, especially at that time, I think now it's a lot better. I think the feel of feeling is very real at that time, because, you know, it involve jobs and, you know, trying to convince something that's never been done before, to the board of directors and and hence why, you know a sound risk management, but at the same time, nothing too stringent that inhibits creativity. It's very important so that you know the organization needs to allow for this feelings to happen, because otherwise people will never be innovative, right? And so that's the same happen. That's the same concept that we the mindset that we have to use when I was at cradle. Because cradle again, you know, you're dealing with early stage startups trying to innovate, trying to do something different. And you know, we were at, you know, for some of you who may not know, cradle Fund is a government agency that provides, you know, early stage funding, seed funding to early stage startups so that they can develop new innovative technology. It's a theme mindset as well, because, you know, you're talking about government's money, utilizing governance money. What happens if it fails? But you know that's it's like again, especially at the early stage, nine out of 10 ideas will fail. So you know, but you need to have a mechanism to make sure that, you know, all parties are protected and that we are not abusing. You know, the structure just to give up grounds for the sake of giving up grounds,

Vanessa Kwan: 12:51

Understand, and maybe, I think this is the perfect segway for us to go deeper into your current venture, maybe for our international audience, who may not be that familiar with calf digital bank. Could you perhaps give us a brief introduction? You know, you're one of the license holders who are going to play in the Islamic digital banking space. So maybe a brief introduction about that as well.

Rafiza - KAF: 13:13

Okay, so back in 2022 central bank, which is panna gara Malaysia, issued out five license, five new license for the digital bank under the regulatory framework, so for them to set up a new digital bank. So even though they've given out their license, but check to operational readiness. So this is something new, because central banks, you know, as you know, especially Malaysia, it's not often that they give out new license. And the difference between this new digital bank license compared to the other incumbent banks that goes through digitalization is the fact that we're not allowed to have any branch. So everything from onboarding all the way to regulatory reporting needs to be online. So, you know, we're not allowed to have branches. We're not allowed to have face to face customers. So everything is done electronically and and it's regulated by central banks or, you know, as you know, like mes, you know, before we are allowed to operate and onboard customers, we need to go through a very rigorous assessment, both by an independent party and also central bank. So that was back in 2022 so as you know, out of the five, three were given license Well, you know, grab, which is GXP, were the first one to come out, followed by, you know, eon and boost last year. So end of last year, December. So Ministry of Finance. Give operations, give green light to operate to the last two digital banks, which is ourselves, and also a consortium of YTL and Sea, and they branded their bank as right back. Yeah, so that's where we are,

Vanessa Kwan: 15:17

understand, and maybe if you can go a little bit deeper into kind of serving the customer segments and building customer experience. Earlier, you mentioned that as digital banks, you have to do everything digitally, so no branches, no physical interactions. Yeah, I understand as well that you've also recently started the alpha testing phase for the digital Oh, that's great. Maybe you could just walk us card today. through a couple or, like, some of the initiatives that you are currently working on, how are you looking to kind of drive the customer experience if you are actually doing everything digitally?

Rafiza - KAF: 15:52

So then, you know, when central bank give, you know, the five of us and license, the mandate is to serve the underserved. So IE, because incumbent banks are doing a good job with, you know, looking at the very bankable clients, but in Malaysia, they are still quite a large number of segments. Maybe they have a bank account, but that's what they call it, underserved, you know, due to various reasons, majority of it due to lack of documentation and lack of track record, as you know, currently how they are being assessed by, you know, the income banks. A lot of it requires a lot of track record. And this is where bank, Negara, you know, give us a mandate, you know, the new digital banks. This is the segment that we need to look at, the underserved and the while the underserved and the unserved now with respect to customer experience, it is very, very important, because we are all new digital banks, right? It is very important when we design the you know, user journey is that it has to be simple. And you know, as a customer, as a new customer, you know, you're trying to open a bank account with a new pen. You know what's one thing that you look at is trust, right? Okay, is this credible? Is this trustworthy? You know, are they, you know, will my money be saved? So I think at the end of the day, you always need to go back to the problem, problem statement and why I be underserved. There are various reasons. One of them, not many people have the luxury to go to a bank branch to do banking services. Maybe, you know, they are small business owners. You know, for every couple of hours that they have to put a pen, it's lots of income for them. So they want to do, they want to be able to do everything on their app. So that's another thing that we you know, when we design the user journey is that we need to make sure that it's simple and you don't need to have, you don't need to have a PhD to be able to, you know, on board that's number one. And number two is that, again, you know, at at this stage where there's so many scammers and you know, people hacking into security, how do you give the comfort to the customers to bank with you? So I think those are the thing that you know, when we look at those are for us at at the beginning, because we don't have any track record. That's one of the things you know. Those are some of the things that we take into consideration when we design the usage

Vanessa Kwan: 18:42

Understand, and earlier on, you know, we spoke a little bit about innovation and risk management. You know, to innovate, you also need to have to balance, rather the risk part of it. Even for yourself as digital bank, I'm quite sure you are very strangely regulated by the Central Bank as well. Yeah. But how do you or how will you kind of measure the success of your innovation efforts at the digital bank? And you know, earlier, you mentioned that customers are at the forefront of what you do. So are there certain metrics, certain KPIs that you'll be using to track the innovation at the digital bank?

Rafiza - KAF: 19:18

Oh, okay, at the moment to be honest. We you Understand, and do you think in the near future, or even in the know, I have to be honest at the beginning, because the effort that it takes for us to cross the starting line, we need to make sure that everything that we do, rather than put innovation at the forefront, we need to make sure that they foreseeable future, do you see potential opportunities for calf comply with regulation. No point in us trying to be innovative, but, you know, it can't meet the banker requirements. So those, digital bank to operate outside of Malaysia. See, for example, so those are the main criteria that we put, you know, when we first, you know, did this project and and it's. Same thing with the other digital banks as well, but some are a lot better at, you know, being innovative, because it all depends on, you know, at that time, what the market is looking for. You know, are they looking you know, as a customer, I'm asking you a question, are you looking for something simple that works, or are you looking for something innovative, that 5050, that it works? You know, at the beginning and so in a lot of well, when you know, when we were going through with at, you know, the SAM W, so, you know, like, whatever it is, it needs to work, you know, at the beginning and later on, then that's when you, you know, you become innovative. And it's the same thing with a lot of technology as well. A lot of the technology that we have come across initially, it could be a little bit clunky, but it works, you know, it stabilized. And to us, that's very important. And then once it's stabilized, then, you know, then you can be a little bit more creative in in trying to be innovative. So and especially, it's not so easy, because we are a regulated industry, if you're not a regulatory industry, and if you're not talking, and if you're not in a business of safeguarding, you know, public money, then yeah, you know, then that is a different story. in the ASEAN markets across South Asia. Definitely that is something that we are not discounting at all. You know, obviously, in order to scale, you can't just rely on the local market. But at the moment, the priority is to serve the Malaysians. You know, that's, that's our priority, make sure that, because that's a mandate given by banker, you know.

Vanessa Kwan: 22:03

And I think going on from there as well, you know, we've seen a lot of changes in the global banking sector, especially in the US. Do you see those disruptions coming into ASEAN, coming into Malaysia, affecting what you are currently doing? And I guess also, maybe it's slightly different for the Islamic finance space, are there special considerations, certain disruptions that you are aware of or trying to kind of navigate through at the moment?

Rafiza - KAF: 22:31

Yes and no, because our market is very different, you know, at the end of the day, it's also depending on the readiness of the market, like, for example, you know, in the US, you know, open banking is, is there, you know. But in Malaysia, probably we're not ready yet, you know, because in order for us to have an open banking you need to have the right infrastructure in place so that, you know, it can be conducted in a secure and trusted manner. So, yes, there are some things disrupt, you know, disruptive. What they call it, technology that are, you know, that can be applied in us, may or may not necessarily, you know, can be applied to the Malaysian market or even ASEAN market. As you know, the markets are different things that may work in other developed countries, and that's why, you know certain technology works, depending on the maturity of, you know the people. I'll give you an example, as you know, you know, Malaysia, Singapore, we are so dependent on Grab and Uber, right? But you can't really use that in Japan, because the public transport that is so good, you know, and, and and there's no demand, you know, people can't, people can't buy cars and become an Uber driver or Grab driver, you know, because so, so there are certain things which you can but, yeah, we just need to be, you know, mindful of that.

Vanessa Kwan: 24:17

Understand, understand. And you mentioned something very interesting, right? The applications of technology and how, in terms of the use cases, can support what you're actually driving in Malaysia, we've heard a lot of buzz around AI. Everyone's really on the AI bandwagon back now. Do you see a lot of applications, or successful applications, that can support what you are currently doing for serving the underserved markets at the digital bank.

Rafiza - KAF: 24:43

Oh, yeah, that one is is given, you know, like, I don't think you can not use any form of AI in your business if you want to survive, right? For. For a lot of financial tuition, the opportunity would be efficiency. So having AI especially doing the low, you know, the sort of the initial low level work, as opposed to having, you know, humans doing it, things like automation, you know, managing complaints, managing, you know, customer service, addressing query issues that you know that is a given. And then now you see, you know people use AI to personalize customer experience. So IE, you know, they understand, they learn your behavior, and you know, then they can make recommendations on what are the things that you need which you didn't realize you need? You know. So those are, you know, I, I believe strongly that, you know, that's something that can be applied, especially in the financial industry

Vanessa Kwan: 26:01

understand, and you know, beyond applications of technologies, one of the key areas, or rather one of the strong suites, I would say, of the digital banking licenses in Malaysia is actually the partnerships and consortiums that you've formed. Digital bank has actually worked with, like custom money match, store hub, also, I believe so yes, how has these partnerships actually kind of strengthened the overall growth strategy of the digital banks? And are you kind of like leveraging each other's reach, you know, like the ecosystem play or how? Yeah, how does the dynamics kind of look like at the moment?

Rafiza - KAF: 26:39

Well, you know some, some of you, you know, for some of you who may not know that, you know, the consultant makes up of KAF Investment Bank, which is an established investment bank in Malaysia, uh, custom, I think most of you know who custom is generic, so, huh? And money match, yes, you're right. But KAF Investment Bank has been in Malaysia for the last 50 years. But they're very strong in investment bank, you know, being a bank, and we know, for a start, that you know, and it's a lead on certain member so, but coffee investment bank are not too familiar, unlike the other conservative members on the retail market, and as you see, the customers of our current consultant members are the underserved market. And we leverage on our consultant members to really understand the, you know, the needs of the underserved. Because, you know, these are the people that they deal with. Whereas you know COVID Investment Bank, what we bring to the table is the fact that, you know, we know how a bank works. Additional bank, whether we like it or not, there are, excuse me, there are still some functions that you require to run as a bank, risk management, compliance, all the governance structure. And I think that's the, that's the, what we call it, you know, we leverage on each other's strength. You know, when we go up to the market.

Vanessa Kwan: 28:20

Understand, and one of the digital banks strategies is actually to kind of redefine financial inclusion for the Malaysian markets. How are you actually utilizing digital tools to kind of drive the SME market, or, like even the underserved communities in Malaysia?

Rafiza - KAF: 28:39

Okay, so again, when we you know, try to understand, if you put yourself in the shoes of you know your potential customer, which is say, for example, a you know, a small entrepreneur you know, in a in a restaurant business, what are their problem statement? You know, they, if you look at the if you look at the business, they don't have full time CFO to look after their finances. Most of them is the business owner themselves, that does the financing, that does the thumb level of bookkeeping, and, you know, and then maybe they might engage, you know, a small accounting firm to do their, you know, to do their bookkeeping at the end of the year, so that they file, you know, even if they have to buy, you know, even, like a lot of the, say, for example, the the stores or whatever do They do, don't even have any form of, you know, actually, no accounting, accounting platform, right? But they do need banking facilities. They do need, say, for example, or they they want to transfer money or send money, or they want to, perhaps, you know, just before. Already festive seasons. You know, they need some liquidity, whatever. What are their problems? Their problems is that banks may not necessarily well as incumbent banks may not necessarily entertain them because they don't have a fixed income, right? Their incomes fluctuate. And this is where, you know, as a digital bank, you can leverage on data, to say, for example, if they have data to their like, in this case, you know, store hub, store hub test score data of, you know, the small business owners as well. So, so then, from there, you can understand their credit, you know the credit behavior, as opposed to, you know, bank statements. And you know financial, yes, they do help them, but you know, there's more than just three months you know financial, what bank statements when you know, we can take a look at, you know, what's their one year's behavior track record, and from there, you know, can we apply some sort of an alternative credit scoring where, you know, they, they may be able to get financing, compared to, you know, otherwise, if they have to go to a traditional bank.

Vanessa Kwan: 31:21

Understand. And I think that will also change slightly after Malaysia kind of do the national digital ID properly.

Rafiza - KAF: 31:27

Yes, that helps as well, you know.

Vanessa Kwan: 31:30

And I think it would definitely be exciting to see how that would kind of shape the banking landscape in Malaysia. I'm, I'm cognizant, and I kind of wanted to shift gears slightly. You know, for you personally, Rafiza, how do you gage different successes in your leadership or like your role models? Who do you look up to? You know, with International Women's Day approaching, are there certain female role models? Yeah, that essentially you look up to model after certain benchmark or goals that you kind of want to meet or strive to meet on a fairly regularly basis, I would say,

Rafiza - KAF: 32:09

Yeah, for me, I don't just look at one person. There are various role models that I, you know, that I watch and it, and also, again, it depends on the situation, right? So, in my early years, I remember, you know, I was working at the Central Bank and the governor then, you know, Tan Sri Zetti, she had a very unique leadership style compared to a lot of other, you know, thought leaders that I've seen because, especially during that time, you know, she so she's got a way on getting things, things done without being in the faith and and to me, I have so much respect For that, you know, like the minute she enters the room, right? She carries this aura that, you know, there's, it is a lot more respect rather than fear. Obviously, you know, like when we were at Central Bank, we were, like, so scared of her, you know, and, but it's more of out of respect rather than, you you know, feel so, so, so you're talking about that leadership style, you know. And then again, there's, there's, you know, different people who, who I look up to, you know, there are a lot of some people that you know I look up to because of the way, how they manage crisis. I think that that's, that's also, you know, another way that I've, you know, I've got one of my ex for that, you know, I mean, he manages crisis very well and very calm, very composed, you know, don't panic and, I think that's also one I try to, you know, whenever, whenever a crisis comes to me, which is a lot actually, you know. And I always try to remember, okay, well, how would he handle this, you know? So I, I pick that as a role model. So, different, different, you know, and, and, and what I do sometimes, you know, especially if I go to a conference, right? And I'm talking about, this is when I was building my career, not now. Now I don't really care so much, but, you know, I remember when I was in my early 30s, and, you know, I was nervous about, you know, even networking. I've, you know, I've never been a confident person from day one. You know, I was very shy. I was very introvert. You know, I was one of those who prefer to do work rather than, you know, mingling around and and, but I know that in order for me to, you know, step up my career, I need, you know, networking is very important. So the first few times I remember going to conferences, I was just observing. I was just observing. Different people, the way, how they network. And if I go into a group of people like, you know, what are the sort of things that they start the conversation with, you know, like you observe and you learn, and then, and then you you kind of like, you know, adapt to your own style, because obviously you can't follow everyone, right? So you you have your own stuff. So, so those are some of the things like that, especially with the when the young people, when they ask me, oh, how do I do that? Because, you know, now, I go into a conference, I go anywhere. You know that I'm so confident, you know that they thought, How do you do that? It's not easy for me as a start, some people are very natural at it. They can just go to a room and make conversation. But I'm not. I'm one of those who needed a bit of hard work and and I tell them that a lot of the times observe, observe and then determine whether is that you because the last thing you want to do is to be fake, right? You need to be natural at it. You need to be genuine. And this is something that I always tell, you know people that you know i i You know, I mentor, and, yeah, that that you need to develop your own style. But observe, you know, from various people.

Vanessa Kwan: 36:08

Understand, I for one, hope that you won't have too many crisis that coming your way.

Rafiza - KAF: 36:16

At least it's crisis at my end, rather than the crisis at the customer. And, you know, I much rather have the crisis now we solve it before it goes to the customer. Yeah, because in any new technology, you can't expect any thing perfect. If you do then you're in the wrong business. You know, you do need to, you do need to expect crisis, but it's just how you manage it, to me that's important, and how you you you know, you get everyone to work with you. You know, in addressing this crisis, to me, that's very important.

Vanessa Kwan: 36:49

And I think one of my second last question, in fact, for you, over the next five years, what is your vision for KAF Digital Bank, the digital bank's role in Malaysia's digital economy, and what are you looking to achieve?

Rafiza - KAF: 37:06

For us, it's very important that, well, one of the conditions you know, before the digital banks can become a full fledged banks is that we, currently, we are in the foundational phase. So in during the foundational space, you have some limitations on what you can do. And I think we all aspire to be able to graduate one day. So for us, you know, my my number one focus is, you know, for us to be able to graduate, to become a full fledged bank, and there are a number of things that you know you need to do. So IE, whether or not you've, you know, you've addressed the mandate that Ben negara give you, ie serving the underserved. You know, financial inclusion, financial literacy, and you know, and more importantly, is the path to profitability. You know that we need to make sure that that we have a path to profitability by the time we graduate, ideally, we turn profit. But you know, if not, at least, you know, there is a clear sign that you'll be achieving profitability. So that's very important. So, so yeah, so for KAF Digital Bank, you know, over the next three to five years, that's what I'll be looking at. And you know that that is one thing that you know in Fauci time, that I get people come to me that, hey, you know, I'm your customer and I love your app. You know? It's great. It's amazing. You know? Yeah, I hope you know one day, you know, I get people coming back to me.

Vanessa Kwan: 38:41

I hope I will be one of those people if you allow foreigners to but I think Rafi, there's something outside of the digital, digital banking space. Where do you see the largest growth opportunities? Number one in Malaysia, and then number two in ASEAN as well.

Rafiza - KAF: 39:01

To me, I have, I'm very excited at, you know, like, like, when, you know, when AI first came out, right? I mean, I everyone is so excited. I now, I don't want to mention what software, because, you know, there's so many out there and then, and then recently, the one in there. It's like, it's, I think, I think especially, you know, when I look at the generation of my kids, right? It's, it's just, so there are things that come in and, like you said, you know, it's completely disrupt. Things which were relevant last week may not be relevant anymore. I think those are the things. It's exciting, but at the same time, it's a bit scary. So I keep on, you know, telling people be prepared to be unprepared. You know, like, unlike, you know, maybe 10 years ago, 15 years ago, you know, preparation is key. You know, everyone say, oh, you know what? Whatever that you do, you need to prepare. I remember when we were doing, you know, Project paper for a new innovation, you know, the the more traditional bosses, right, will, you know, you need, you need to do all sorts of analysis. You know, what's your competitive benchmark? You know, blah, blah, and you need to be very prepared, you know, before you can even go out to the market. But nowadays is like you need to learn not to be prepared. And, you know, go along as you. Yeah, as you go out.

Vanessa Kwan: 40:36

I understand digital banking revolution will continue to evolve day by day. I think, beyond just the technologies, also like you rightly mentioned at the very beginning, how do you build a more inclusive, efficient and also responsive to what your customers want at the end of the day? So it's something that's definitely very exciting and repeat most of us on our tools, hopefully we will see more of good news from calf digital bank in the coming years and to our listeners, we hope this has kind of given you a bit more understanding to the digital banking landscape in Malaysia and what rafiza and her team is doing. Thank you very much, rafiza for joining us in this feature. We look forward to continuing the conversation with you very soon.

Rafiza - KAF: 41:24

Thanks, Vanessa, thanks for having me.

Unknown: 41:26

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