Success, with Simon Mundie

So much of our silly short lives is spent chasing after trophies or money or glory. Success!

But it's never really enough. We just want more trophies and more more money and one day we die and so does everything else, the end. As a culture, we've got success wrong.

Today's guest says we should instead see success as learning to lose ourselves in things - whether that's playing the piano, or sport, or listening to jolly interesting podcasts.  Pursuing, and cherishing, a flow state - the only state in which we are truly contented. And perhaps if we all did that a bit more, we might bugger up the planet a little less.

Simon Mundie is a BBC sports reporter, host of the magnificent The Life Lessons Podcast, and author of the new book Champion Thinking: How to Find Success Without Losing Yourself.  He's had just about every sports star you can think of on his show, and has learned more than just one book's worth of wisdom about what success really means, from those who've chased it, won it, and lost it.

Owl noises:
-- 12:48 - you can find Simon's episode with Caitlin Jenner here, and here's some words about it.
-- 21:14 - Goldie Sayers chucks it long.
-- 44:17 - Dacher Keltner's stuff on awe. I'll get him on here one day. 

Your Brain on Climate is a podcast about human psychology vs the climate crisis: what we think, why we think it, and how it all adds up to a planet-sized emergency.  Contact the show:  @brainclimate on Twitter, or hello@yourbrainonclimate.com.

Support the show on Patreon: www.patreon.com/yourbrainonclimate.

The show is hosted and produced by me, Dave Powell, who you can find @powellds on Twitter.  Original music by me too.

Show logo by Arthur Stovell at www.designbymondial.com.  

Transcript

Dave: 

I am in my happy place. I am at the football.

Well, I'm not really at the football now. I recorded this crowd noise at the football, but I'm not some kind of weirdo who records actual podcast intros whilst at the football. So look, use your imagination. It's kind of like I'm at the football, right? Now, I want to talk about football for a second. It is preposterous, particularly Premier League football. Vast amount of effort and excitement and swearing, all in service of kicking a cow's bladder into a bag more time than other people do. I know it's ridiculous, but I love it. It calms me whilst getting me angry. It immerses me at its best, which given I'm a Brentford fan isn't every time at the moment. I lose myself in it. And given I spend a lot of time getting antsy about climate change and the state of everything, it's welcome to lose myself in things every now and then. 

Now all of that is a precursor to today's episode, which is all about success. At first, ostensibly, sporting success. The pursuit of trophies and winning. That pursuit that always turns out to be illusory and not really what sport is all about. But also wider success. How we define what success is in life. Is a successful person someone with lots of money or a massive car? Or is it someone who's learned to live in a lovely peaceful state, freed for as long as possible from the rambunctious demons of our terrible minds?

Well today's guest is an expert on what real success looks like. Simon Mundie, he's a bit of a hero of mine to be honest. It was a privilege to talk to him. Something of an inspiration for this show. He's a BBC sports journalist. But through his podcast, Don't Tell Me the Score on the BBC and his own independent Life Lessons podcast, it became a bit of a template for what I'm trying to do here. He started talking to sports stars about what made them tick. You know, your Ronnie O'Sullivans, your Frankie Dettors. And started to dig under the surface to draw out what's really going on, what really motivates them, how they really think about the world and drawing out those bigger lessons for life. And he's channeled it all into his new book, Champion Thinking. It takes all that wisdom from Johnny Wilkinson, Andy Murray, Goldie Sayers, Caitlyn Jenner and so many more into meaningful advice for how to live a genuinely successful life. If by successful we don't mean chasing glory, but chasing happiness. 

We had a brilliant chat. We chatted about his journey from BBC Sports reporter, which he still does, to everyday Buddhist; what he's learned about boredom, what he's learned about flow states and how to be aware of the beauty of the people and the planet that pass us by every second of the day. And , you'll be pleased to know, how rethinking what we as a society consider to be successful and what we really pay attention to and chase after, how that might be key, says Simon, to not knackering the earth forever. 

As always, if you hear [owl noise], it denotes wisdom. It means you don't have to stop the show, but there's probably something of interest in the show notes which you can have a look at later at your leisure. Thank you as always to everyone who chips in a few quid a month to help with the running costs on Patreon. That's patreon.com/yourbrainonclimate or drop me an email to hello at yourbrainonclimate.com if you want to give me money in other ways. It'd be massively appreciated. I pay my guests. I think that's really important. I'm getting their time. I'm getting their wisdom. I want to reward them for that. Not many podcasts do, but it matters to me. And you wouldn't get the chat you'll get unless I did that so if you can help that'd be great and if you can't do that please do drop me a positive review as so many are doing it's really appreciated on your podcast medium of choice and tell your friends to tell everyone. 

Right okay anyway I think we're gonna score in a minute I really do. So let's get on with it. Here's my chat with Simon. 

–

Dave: 

Alright, Simon Mundie, hello. How are you doing, 

Simon: 

Hi. Yeah, I'm alright. How are you? Thanks for having me. 

Dave: Oh no, thank you very much. I am going to say this on air. I wasn't going to. This is your show, which has had a couple of names. Do you want to say what it is? Its old name and its new name? 

Simon: So it used to be called Don't Tell Me The Score, using sport as a metaphor for life, using sport to explore life's bigger questions, I think is what I used to say. Then I changed it to the Life Lessons podcast. I'm actually thinking of, here's an exclusive, changing it again. to, actually I won't tell you what it is, but I'm thinking of changing it again because I feel like it could do with a little evolution. But yes, it's the Life Lessons podcast currently. 

Dave: 

Oh, super. Well, it's one of the inspirations for this show. And if you like what I do on Your Brain on Climate, you will very much like Simon's show. It is wise and it is clever and he talks to loads of interesting people and from which picks out lessons that might be useful. So thank you. It's a privilege to have you on, sir. And I wondered if you would start by explaining a little bit about you, a chap who started off, well still does sports journalism, and then ends up writing a book, which is sort of about sport and what it can teach us about life, but it's about much more than that, right? 

Simon: 

Yes, it is. Come on, what name did you have for it? Because I thought this was great. 

Dave: 

Oh, well, Everyday Buddhism. I think it's a book of everyday, everyday Buddhism. I think, like, you know, it's called Champion Thinking, right, your book, and it's all about success and what you've learned about that from the people that you've talked to and stuff. But well, it's not really about like winning trophies, is it, Simon? 

Simon: 

No, exactly. That's the whole point. And so, yeah, it's called Champion Thinking, How to Find Success Without Losing Yourself. I'll just do the big idea of the book just because we've touched on it. And then I'll go back and tell you how we got here, if that's all right, just because I think it's worth just picking up on what you said there about success, because yeah, I'm trying to point in the direction that success is not the panacea that everyone or many people think it is. And it actually has implications actually in terms of obviously the subject you're so passionate about in terms of the way we treat the planet, et cetera. But the big idea is that typically we think success is synonymous with happiness, wellbeing, fulfillment. And success obviously is those classic things, the big job, the big house, the relationship. And in sport it's heightened because it's the Olympic gold medal, the world cup, those kinds of things, the trophies. But there are so many examples of people in life and sport who get there and are not fulfilled. But the experience of flow in sports is inherently intrinsically enjoyable and fulfilling and joyful. And the question is, why is that? And also why do we overlook it? And so I think people talk about trophies, but actually for me, the real beauty of sport is the losing ourself in it, whether playing, watching. And when you experience flow, two things happen, time distorts and your sense of self disappears. And so the question is how real is that sense of self and what is it that gets revealed? So that's the big idea and we can perhaps dig more into that. 

But to go back to me, so yes, I started out, we'll start with the sports reporting bit. I started out on Radio One as a sports reporter in 2010. Before that, I'm a massive tennis nerd, and I certainly was growing up. It was my portal into presence, I would say. Didn't realize it at the time, whether playing or watching. And I have a real ability to hyper -focus and on the other side of that be very distractible. And so I was just obsessed with tennis. And so if anyone asked me growing up, what I wanted to do is always work at Wimbledon. I initially thought as a print journalist, but then I did broadcast journalism at uni, so it was about being a broadcast journalist. And I started working at Radio Wimbledon in 2007, having actually worked there in my university holidays many years before, taking out the rubbish initially, and serving behind the bar and stuff like that. And Did Radio Wimbledon 2007, eight, nine, which was just such a joyful experience for me because the 10 year old me would have cut off my arm to have done it. And then I got the job at Radio One doing all sport in 2010. And that was great. I remember I sort of had this sense of I've made it when they told me the job, because I thought it was a job that was too good for me when I went to Radio One. Then I get this job, very high profile, incredible access. It's the one sports job in the country where you get to cover everything. So I was doing World Cups, Wimbledon's, Olympics, you know, you name it, ashes, you name it, I was there. And I was very fortunate because in those, particularly those first few years, it was a really, I would say probably the most exciting time in the history of British sport. You've got the London Olympics. You've got Andy Murray winning Wimbledon the next year, 2013. So there was just so much going on. There was the Football World Cup in Brazil in 2014, the spiritual home of football. But I was never a stereotypical sports reporter because tennis was always my standout sport. I've never been a football fan, even though I pretended in the early days, to fit in.

 And then what I found was, increasingly over the years, that I just found it was a little shallow. And I still do a bit of sports reporting for the Today program, so I don't want to write it off completely, but it's not the only thing I wanted to do. 

And alongside, let's say, my career, there was also, I think, some, well, there was some personal stuff around suffering. So I was looking for some answers to why I felt a bit broken and needed fixing, insecure, those kinds of things that I think are inevitably the triggers that get people onto the so -called self -improvement journey and was looking for answers along with therapy and various other things. And that led me onto a bit of a spiritual path around 2013, which really sort of blossomed. And so as the years went by and I was becoming more, less excited by just reporting on tactics and results and score and those kinds of things, the kind of surface level stuff, when really I like going deep, as you know, I wanted to do something around that. So I pitched to do a podcast using sport as a metaphor for life. I just wanted to have sport as a way into these deeper themes. And that got commissioned and started broadcasting in 2018. And then, yeah, did that on the BBC for X years, got approached about writing this book pretty early on in the process. And then have, you know, yeah, been very fortunate. I've spoken to some pretty amazing people and I've had some pretty surreal experiences. I was recorded in an episode in Caitlyn Jenner's house in LA, which was broadcast on BBC two, which was surreal. I didn't necessarily expect that to happen when I set the podcast up. Um, but you know, you don't ask, you don't get. 

And yeah, so, you know, really felt like I've sort of maxed sport out and then got approached about the book and I started writing it. And I would say that I initially was, I always wanted to have some of these Buddhist spiritual, whatever you want to call them spiritual, loaded word undertones in there. but it was the degree to how far I was going to go. And then when I did the second draft, I just, I couldn't not really go there. And I think the publishers pushed back a bit and have tried to squeeze me a little bit on it, but actually credit where it is due, they have allowed me to go there. And so yes, sport really now, particularly with the book, is just a vehicle or a window through which to explore these things that I'm really interested in. The questions around identity, questions around what flow reveals, questions around, you know, our conceptual sense of self and then the aware mind, as I call it. All these different things. And then the podcast has evolved now and I've gone… really sports only a very small part of it, hence the name change. So yeah, I think that tells the story, Dave, pretty much. 

Dave: 

Although when did it first occur to you that, when did you first begin to go, oh, sport is a metaphor for life? Was there a particular moment when you were watching someone do something and you thought, hang on a minute, wait a minute, there's a metaphor in here, if I look for it? 

Simon: I think it just happened organically. I think I always had that interest in the bigger questions, primarily initially on a personal level. My dad's always said I think too much and I've always replied that he thinks too little. So, and then I just think it was a marrying of the two. And so like I said, with the sport side of things, I actually, a lot of my friends, most of my friends, or certainly some of them, know a lot more about sport in the round than me. But I had this obsession with tennis and like I say it was almost like a spiritual thing for me.  You know watching Roger Federer or playing it myself, you know that portal into presence and so… it's just because it was my career. initially there was no plan. I remember wanting to move into more of the psychological or the space I'm in now but without the sport and then it just so happened. It just so happened that the two kind of came together. And when I started talking about it, it just was obvious, you know, sport is a really good way to explore these deeper things. And then obviously podcasts just started to come up, which meant that you had more time to dig into these, have longer conversations and go deeper into this. So I think it happened pretty organically. It wasn't a conscious decision. As you know, I would suggest that life's always in the driving seat anyway, and it's just happening through you. So yeah, I think that's the essence of it. It's been a kind of surrendering and I'm pretty amazed actually that it's ended up here from there actually.

Dave: 

I'm a football fan, massive football fan, been one for years and years and years. And it's always been one of the things that's very hard to explain to someone who isn't. Like say, an ex of mine was like, why are you bothering to trek halfway across the country on a Saturday and sit and watch these men kick this ball around? And I never really had the… I couldn't really explain it. I just knew that I liked it. And then when I began to actually in provocation, you know, in that provocation, begun to think about it, I was like, I'm not thinking about work or about, you know, what's going on or the argument we just had, or the fact that I'm old and life is meaningless and all of that sort of stuff. I'm just thinking about these idiots kicking this cow's bladder around and realizing that that was it. Like I could dress it up in any other way I wanted. And there's all this stuff about, you know, being part of a communal experience and all that, but mainly it's just, I'm just bloody enjoying it. And if I enjoyed it, I mean, I'm completely in this moment. Right? 

Simon: 

Absolutely. And that, that's such an important insight. And I think so many people overlook that. So you'll know on match of the day, sorry for being a bit cliched here, they'll say it's all about trophies. It's all about winning. I would argue what you've just pointed out is what it's all about. It's what sports all about. In fact, not only is what sports all about, I would argue that's all we're seeking all the time is that to be so engaged in a moment that we lose ourselves. And when I say lose ourselves, what I mean is that when you're so focused on this moment, you're so present that you're not thinking about what happened last week or what's going to happen next week, time distorts. I mean, you'll know that, right? A really compelling match that will fly by quickly. Same as a conversation, good conversation. Everyone can relate to that, where time distorts. And when time drops away, as you've just alluded to, then your identity drops away as well, because we all, if you look at people's Twitter bios, we all talk about ourselves in terms of, you I'm a dad, I'm an ex -fan, I'm this, I'm this, I'm this, I believe this, I think this, et cetera. And that's all fine and interesting and important to navigate the social landscape, but it's also not fundamental, it's not the whole story because when we lose track of time, we're completely present and you're only here now, then identity is meaningless. Identity just drops away of its own accord. And so then something else more magnificent is revealed. I call it the enoughness that is always present in all of us, but that we lose touch with as we get older. 

We've got a nine month old baby. And it's perfectly clear, she's very utterly present, no ego, no beliefs, no identity. And it's not even a question that she's not enough. And she would never question that she's not enough. She doesn't care, you know, she doesn't care if she soils herself in front of us or anything like that, doesn't, you know, who gives a monkeys? But obviously as we get older and as the ego and the language machine in our heads, comes online and then we start to conceptualize and judge and compare and contrast and then we lose touch with that enoughness. And I would say it's just the kind of aware presence is completely already fulfilled and whole and joyful. And so what things like your football or my tennis or my wife's piano or Adrian Chiles’ ironing he told me this week, it's just portals into our true nature. That's all it is. 

And it's just, we look at it in different ways. So, you know, with your ex who's like, what are you doing? Of course. Yeah. Well, it doesn't make sense and we can, it's the way into it is different for all of us, but it's all the same thing. It's all the same thing. 

Dave: 

And it's like you say, it's not just the watching it, right? Some of the best bits of your book is when you're interviewing, particularly as the book goes on, sports people who don't play no more. And you're talking about that sense of great loss that they feel. And it's not cause they're not winning the trophies anymore or cause they can't compete for the trophies. It's that feeling is gone. That kind of immersing yourself in a thing for hours at a time. 

Simon: 

Absolutely. Goldie Sayers, who was Britain's best javelin thrower for many years and won a medal at Beijing in 2008. Yeah, she pointed that out, which I thought was a really insightful view that in her view, the reason so many top athletes struggle in retirement is not just the loss of structure, status, finance, et cetera. It's also, or primarily, the loss of this portal into flow, into presence. But it's so easy to overlook this that we think it's the other things. And hence the cliches around trophies and whatever else. 

But that’s not to say though that flow is the only way to get to this. This is, I think, is another interesting point that yes, of course, we all have our activities that we love that take us there. Football, as I've said, tennis, dance, piano, whatever it is. But actually, if we can recognize that we are not there's more to us than our conceptual identity, than this stream of thoughts and some corresponding feelings, that there's something that is there first, that is aware of the thoughts, that is aware of the feelings, and we can always just drop into that. It's a recognition fundamentally. There's something there before the thoughts and feelings and sensations and perceptions. Then actually I think that sense of presence, of aware presence, of flow, and the peace and the joy that are inherent in it are actually available so much more of the time. 

I'll give you an example. I did the Today program. Wait, it's Friday today, isn't it? On Monday, Monday. And so I have to get up at 4 a .m. and I get picked up at 20 past four and I'm in and it's intense, but I'm done at quarter to nine. And I walk back from Oxford Circus to Waterloo. And I love that walk. And it's kind of trippy. And this is where I go there and I'm always detaching from my thoughts and detaching from my feelings and just coming back to noticing that, hang on, there's something that's aware of everything, something that's aware of everything. And I experienced flow or presence, whatever you want to call it, then. So it's available all the time. It's just that we don't recognize it. And I just think the flow and these things are, yes, they're valuable in and of themselves, but they're also a hint that this is already the case at any moment, it's just that we have lost touch with it and overlook it. In fact, it's the only thing that's happening really at the deepest level. We just think it's not.

Dave: 

Do you think our culture has got success wrong? The idea of what it means to be successful. I hear this all the time. I heard it just the other day, just in passing, even people who do know better say things like, of course, that person's very successful. And what they mean is, by that, that person's got a big house and is doing well in their field and everyone thinks they're fantastic. Have we got that wrong? 

Simon: 

Definitely, 100%. I think that the number of people who are mega successful, who are being driven by a sense of internal disquiet is really vast. In fact, I would say that it's probably quite significantly more common than not, because you need to have something that's driving you to get to these kind of elevated levels. And I mentioned, I spoke to Adrian Chiles this week. He said, came out with an interesting line. He said, the more successful I was getting, the more miserable I was on the one hand. And then he also does a lot of sport interviews. He noticed the same thing. A lot of them are driven, for example, by not a desire to win, but a fear of loss. So there's a fear that I think is driving a lot of success, if we just use sports metaphor again. And so absolutely, I think it's such a narrow way to look at people because there's so much more to anyone than what they do, or what they own. In fact, that's so shallow just to focus on those things as opposed to, it sounds trite, but how kind someone is, how open someone is, how empathetic someone is, the quality of someone's relationships, just one's ability to be present. Just there's so much more to it. And I think as well that, if we were still in touch with that sense of being enough, which as I said, is there underneath our beliefs and thoughts and feelings, I don't think the drive to acquire and strive and seek success in particularly in such elevated circles in the way that's celebrated wouldn't be there in the first place. 

And then I think to your subject of around, for example, the planet, then I think, this decimation of the planet and this abuse of the planet and the abuse of the animal kingdom, for example, would not be such a problematic thing. If you look at indigenous communities, you know, who live in harmony with nature. there isn't that same striving. It's a recognition that we're not separate from nature. We are nature, not even a part of nature, we are nature. And so it's insane to do what we do. 

But so absolutely, I think we've got success wrong. I think the word ‘enough’ is so fundamental is recognizing we're enough and also recognizing when we have enough, we don't need much. And so, yeah, I think it's destructive on a psychological level in terms of people thinking they're not enough because they're not successful. I think it's destructive for people who chase success and get there only to realize it didn't fill the void. And then it is destructive on an outward level in terms of the way we treat other people, the animal kingdom, and nature more broadly. So absolutely, very problematic. 

Dave: 

There's some sort of direct ways that it, some of which you've alluded to, that this pursuit of success, which is, you know, turn on your telly and an advert comes up. But I was thinking this last night, is that the cinema and all the adverts before the film I was seeing. Just like big cars and happy, glamorous people having happy, glamorous lives with lots of money and going to beautiful nature places without any other people in them and all that sort of stuff. And all of that makes people not only do jobs they don't like in pursuit of money to buy things they don't really want anyway, but it just generates fast amounts of shit, which ends up in the sea or up the arse of a porpoise or both. And there's a lot of environmentally type people have said that's kind of the problem. The problem is what we pursue, what we are sold. What do you think you've learned from the sport world about how to live in a better way, in practice. Because the thing is it's so hard to unhook from all this stuff, right? Like if you were in sport, you've got to go chase the trophies and win the races, because that's what you do. And there's so much sort of glamour and glory around it. And if you're in life, you know, it's just, you swim in it. So how do you, how do you kind of detach yourself from that, do think?

Simon:  

Can I go deep here? 

Dave: 

You ain't gone deep already?

Simon: 

So I've spoken about identity and I am a dad, a football fan, believe this, think that. And so we've all got a self -concept, an ego, a sense of self, which we tend to locate in the head or maybe in the chest, but primarily in the head in countries like this. And we think that's who we are. And that gives us a sense of separation. So that means, you know, I am separate from you, I'm separate from wildlife outside, et cetera. But if we can, the first recognition I think that's so important is to recognize that you're not your thoughts, you're aware of your thoughts. Thoughts come up and you're aware of them. It's not like you think your thoughts, it's more like you're aware or you hear your thoughts. So thoughts are just coming up in just the same way as, your heart just continues to beat and there's something there that's aware of it. So I think this is the first important recognition is to recognize that you're not your thoughts. So therefore you're at the fundamental level, the core level, you're not this thought -based conceptual identity that we think we are. 

And then it's like, okay, so what are we? You said about sport, I've already touched on flow. So when we're in flow, that sense of self goes and we love it. We love losing ourselves in the moment. You hear people say that, I lost myself in the moment. We love it when we lose ourselves. Okay, so what is it? That means that when that sense of self goes, we're relieved that it's gone. We seek, we want it to go. But there's something that remains. So it is this sort of aware presence. Now, this aware presence, that's in the background of thoughts, of feelings, sensations, perceptions, it is inherently enough, it's inherently okay, but also it's not different in me than it is in you. And so I think this, until we get to this recognition that while we seem to be completely separate and individual and distinct, and therefore it's dog eat dog and, you know, I'm here and I'm separate from you and I'm separate from the world and therefore I'm going to try and squeeze as much out of life as I possibly can for myself at the expense of others. As opposed to recognizing that actually at this deep level I'm not different from you and I'm not actually different from my cat who's just up here. 

And so there's this recognition of a of a connection and a sameness, and I'm loathe to use the word oneness, but I will, a oneness with us, between us, and therefore… It's almost a recognition of that we're not separate. And so for me, until we see that and recognize that, we will carry on making these cataclysmic actions that harm the planet, for example. 

And it doesn't really matter what policies a government puts in place. This is my opinion. It doesn't really matter. It's a bit like shuffling deck chairs on the Titanic because the premise is wrong. Until we recognize that at the core level, it's not like I have a life, I am life and so are you and so is the planet. And therefore, we're not separate. We have a, there's something that connects us at the deepest level, literally connects us at the deepest level. And therefore, if I'm harming you or the planet, I'm harming myself. Until we really understand that, I think, you know, we're doomed. And to bring it back to sport, that's why we love flow, because we get in touch with that. It's also why we love falling in love, because we're, for a moment, we're, ah, you complete me.  I lose that sense of self. Absolutely. But in everything we do, art, music, cooking, we're always seeking this because it's the truth. It's the deepest truth. It's what makes us feel our most content and happiness. But because of the ego, which I would suggest is an evolutionary thing, we're not the finished product, then we're stuck to make these mistakes until we transcend it. Now when that will happen, I don't know, maybe it will never happen.

Dave: 

Well, and this is of course the charge that will come back is we ain't got time for all that Simon, we ain't got time for a cultural awakening en masse. We've got to get this water bottle out the arsehole of this porpoise. And I think that is, we can do both, right? I mean, you know, you talked about your kids, right? So what, if anything, are you trying to do to incult them in the ways of awareness? 

Simon: 

Well, okay. I'm actually in debt to them. My eldest, who's just come home and I can hear her making a racket downstairs, so she was distracting me when I was talking there, and I'm in her bedroom. We've got two cats, Roger and Mariah. My wife named Mariah after Mariah Carey, and I named Roger, who's right here, after Roger Federer. We got them during lockdown when she was three or four and she just so like loves our cats. And so when we would have meat, particularly mammals, she would get really upset. I remember once we spoke about having lamb and she was like, lamby and started crying. And so as a result, we've stopped eating. We still eat chicken and a bit of fish because I don't. know how to feel healthy without that, and that's the truth. But actually the difference from where we were five, six years ago, when we talked about having a couple of meat -free days, whereas now it's like, no, no, no, we are pretty much primarily vegetarian. And so, yeah, in terms of the planet, that to me is actually the thing that stands out most. We do try and do what we can in other ways. It's difficult to quantify. I quite like just being at home, to be quite honest. Obviously there's the flying and that kind of thing. I just quite like being at home. I don't need much. If I've got good vegetables and a walk to the park, I'm pretty happy. 

Yeah, but beyond that, it's tricky. I think you're right, just to your point earlier, which is, okay, I've got this big kind of spiritual revolution idea and it's not something you can make happen. I think as with anything, it just happens, right? But I completely agree with you that there needs to be this, as you say, action in the first instance. And I really applaud a lot of people who are stepping up and you know, making some serious noise. And my wife and I, we talk about it, you know, we get so bogged down in all the nonsense of politics and there's so much crap going on in the world caused by this sense of other, me and other. So whether it be, you know, immigrants or different religions or whatever it is, all this strife that's distracting us from this massive issue that you're pointing out which is the planet. And so, obviously we just gotta draw attention to it, but everyone gets distracted because they are still othering others, which for me is the fundamental problem.

Dave: 

The last thing I wanted to talk to you about was about boredom, because it's the thing that you've been, you were banging on about this on the socials the other day and I thought it was very good. It's right, isn't it? One of the things in our economy at the moment is we're not allowed to be bored anymore. It's just content all the time. And you were saying, you're advocating for put your bloody phone away, get off your phones. Talk a bit more about that.

Simon: 

Yeah, so for the first time in history, we don't have to be bored. You know, when I was growing up, if I was waiting for a train, I had to wait for the train. If I was queuing to get something, I just had to queue. Whereas now, obviously, we all have these things, don't we, in our pockets, these digital distraction devices that we can reach for. And I think it's problematic on several levels. I think that we are not allowing our brains to power down first, and so that's causing a massive increase in mental health and anxiety and stuff like that. Obviously there's the question of the content that people are seeing, which we focus on, but actually I think the bigger problem is just the amount that people are on the phone. It's an addiction device, right? And so, and because we're so distracted and distractible, then we're not looking up and then we're not noticing what's happening around us.

You know, when I walk or when I get a train, I will just stand there. You know, if I'm on the platform, I always look down and people are on their phones, head over, and they're missing this moment, right? Because this moment is the only moment that matters. You know, we never actually experienced the future. We never actually experienced the past. It's only ever now. But most people use this moment as a means to get to an important future moment, which is where the success and the not enough stuff sort of comes from. And so I think that by not looking up and by being perpetually in this state of distraction and comparison and like you say, being sucked in by these glossy images and I'm not enough and that's just being reinforced by social media, we're missing these, you know, the really big issues, but we're also just suffering individually. 

You can't get into flow, for example, if you're permanently distracted, if you're just leaping from one thing to the next. If you're spending seven seconds or less than flitting through clips, you can't get into flow. Flow follows focus. And so that ability to be engrossed in something like you are when you go to a football match is being robbed of us. And then people aren't doing things like creative endeavors to the same degree.

We know mental health is a massive problem, but then also we're turning a blind eye to the really big issues. For example, climate change.

Dave: 

And even the stuff around us, right? Like we're, you know, we're walking through the park on our phone or listening to a podcast. Not that podcasts aren't important, but I do sometimes think I might listen to too many podcasts. You're not looking around and seeing the state of things. And you know, the amount of times you see people with their loved ones on trains, like I do this all the time as well, you know, sat next to my wife and we're both on our phones and not talking to each other and, and all of those seconds are lost and they're never coming back. And there, and there's something about like, I don't know, maybe looking around us and seeing what is here and what we might lose and what we're losing, whether that's trees or people feels completely.

Simon:

 A couple of things spring to mind. Um, I was walking back from the park the other day and I noticed stuff was just blooming early. Obviously I would have missed that if I'd have been on my phone. So that's one thing. I was like, gosh, this is alarming. Right, so that's part number one. And then another one I remember, and ironically I did film a little video about this, but just thought, you know, you've got to meet people where they're at. But I was on the train platform. As I said, when I'm on the train platform, I will just stand there. It's a moment of stillness to look around and I sort of filmed this thing and behind me you could see all these people on the platform and everyone's on the platform staring at the phone. And I said, you know, if everyone here knew it was their last day on earth, of course they'd look around and go, shit, what am I missing? You know, right? You look up above you, right? Okay, it's a sky, just this blue canvas, but actually consider that as far as we know that goes on and on and on and on potentially to infinity, right? That's pretty mad. That's certainly more interesting really on a deep level than, than, um, anything on, you know, scrolling through a tweet or what someone's opinion on the latest political scandal, the feeling of the wind. I remember the feeling, the wind on my sensations of the wind on my face, it listening to, to birds. So I love just those simple things that even now I'm looking at my window, you can see the wind going. And it's so easy to miss the everyday miracles that are all around us and they are all around us. 

And that comes back to this point around presence, around, you know, this moment is the only moment that matters. And this moment is enough as it is. We don't need to add to it. And that means just go outside and literally look and it's enough. Like, it's miraculous if you can pay attention to it. And I don't mean think about it, right? So I interviewed a guy about ore. And ore is this emotion, Dacher Keltner is his name. He was like one of the world's leading happiness guys. And he talked about awe and when we go out into nature. So he's a really good one. So if you go for an awe walk, he called them, a really interesting phenomenon was observed. They got people to take selfies before and after this all walk when they're out in nature. And then the first, their faces took up most of the screen. And in the second, it tended to be only in the corner because they were much more aware of their surroundings. But when we do this, when people do this all walk, their sense of self disappears again, or at least diminishes. And what I would say is when I'm in the park and I see a beautiful landscape, the moment of real beauty is not when my mind goes, oh, isn't that beautiful? It's in the recognition beforehand. And when the mind is silent, and it's just, it's not like there's you and the landscape, there's just the landscape. And then the mind chirps up with, oh, isn't this beautiful, right? But that's not where the beauty is. It's before the mind starts commenting. Because it's a bit like having subtitles on your telly, right? The subtitles are not the movie. The movie is just a pure, direct experience. What you see, what you sense, what you feel, what you touch, those kind of things that are immediate, that are inherently, absolutely present, whereas our thoughts about them can never refer to the direct present. And we're far too caught up in our thoughts and our thinking, as opposed to this direct awareness in which beauty and all these things, where you can really connect with the magnificence of nature on a really deep, profound and fulfilling level, as opposed to, so what, it's just another landscape. That's amazing. 

Dave: 

And you're bringing us right back to sport again. I think the most present moment in any sport, in football anyway, I can't really describe what I mean and you only know what I mean if you watch football, is the moment before the ball has gone into the goal, but it's definitely going to. So it's left the player's foot. It's definitely going in, but it hasn't yet gone in. And you don't have time to process that. That's like a kind of microsecond type thing. But you feel that experience of a thing that has not happened yet, but is happening. And it's, yeah, football is also about having drinks with your mates and having fun. But it's also, a metaphor for life. Simon, thank you so much for coming on Your Brain on Climate…

Simon: 

Dave, let me just add one thing. Yeah. Just on that, what you just said about goals, about that goal, right? That split second when the bulls left the foot, okay? In that split second, you're just being, you're not becoming. And I think that's the success thing. We're not striving, you're not seeking for that goal. In that moment, ah, you're not what you have, what you want and therefore that you just are. And then it's only then after that, oh hey, then the mind comes up, wait, and then you start the stride again. We need another goal, we need more, more, more. In that moment, that's the only moment of that enoughness is shining. That's what I would say. 

Dave: 

Very good. Well, I'm going to watch my team get absolutely walloped by Arsenal this weekend, so there ain't going to be any enoughness. But, but, but, you know, other than that, I think you have a very good point. Simon, look, thank you so much for coming on Your Brain on Climate, you're a wise and interesting chap. Plug your book, what is it called, and plug your various vehicles. 

Simon: 

Yes, so my book is called Champion Thinking, How to Find Success Without Losing Yourself. We've gone obviously pretty deep and I'm sure people will be like, what the hell's he on about, to some degree. But I explain these things in a bit more detail and in a more accessible way in the book. And then the podcast... 

Dave: 

We should say actually Simon, the book is fundamentally about your amazing conversations with sports people like Johnny Wilkinson and Will Carling and Goldie Sayers and Caitlyn Jenner and these people who have, all in various extents, have learnt that there's sports not a matter of life or death but in a weird way much more important than that, right?

Simon:

 Absolutely, yeah. The sporting anecdotes are just a way into this deeper understanding rather than this superficial, you know, acquire more, succeed more, get more, blah, blah, blah, usual success narrative that you pointed out earlier. But yeah, yeah. So it's all founded on the conversations I've had, been fortunate to have over the last six years, but the insights are far deeper, I would suggest. And the podcast is, for now at least, Life Lessons. The Life Lessons podcast with Simon Mundie. That's it, yeah. And my website, SimonMundie.com, if anyone wants to get in touch. 

Dave: 

Or you can get up at six in the morning and listen to him banging on about tennis.

Simon: 

Very occasionally on the Today program and maybe even on Telly at Wimbledon as well.

—

Dave: 

Well we did score in a minute and then Arsenal scored more and so we lost. It truly is the taking part that counts after all, perhaps. 

Anyway, look, thanks massively to Simon for coming on. Do read his book, Champion Thinking. It's fun, it's accessible, it's dead interesting, not just for sports fans. And hopefully he'll have the cut of his jib by now. I can't recommend his Life Lessons podcast highly enough.

Do get in touch with me, I'm on Twitter @BrainClimate. You can drop me an email to hello@yourbrainonclimate.com. And a reminder, if you've liked this, you want to chuck in a couple of quid, I'm on the Patreon at yourbrainonclimate. You can give me a review on your podcast medium of choice. It all counts, it's all wonderful.

Thank you very much for your support. Right, I am off. I'm gonna go and find Maggie the Cat. I'm gonna stroke her. I'm gonna tell her that we are figments of the same being stretched across the harmonic beauty of life. And that if she bites me, and she will bite me, she's only really biting herself. Maggie! Maggie!