Dylan Brewer | This Is An Experiment #108

Dylan Brewer, explains the value of having a platform to discuss music and meet various artists. He talks about how podcasts provide a place for pure conversations. He also explains how working in music can be incredibly stressful but having a podcast where he can talk without worry is incredibly liberating. Moving on, Dylan talks more about the mechanics of the music industry, such as how having dedicated personnel for artist development could have a very positive impact on the industry. Lastly, Dylan stresses the importance of empathy in every industry and how a positive tone can encourage people and help them succeed. As well as what is tae to BREAK a new artist and the marketing behind it.

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Transcript

Dylan Brewer | This Is An Experiment #108 - YouTube
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkTNlGaQ_E8

Transcript:
(00:00) [Music] experience is the experiment [Music] Dylan Brewer we're back baby we've done it how you doing I'm good brother how are you I'm great thanks for having me back again of course and we were just talking about which I'm gonna put you on the spot so hopefully it happens is you starting your podcast again yeah man every time you see me you you bring it up I'm such a big fan of it I appreciate it yeah it's only a matter of time you know yeah it was just like a lot of work but I think there's some exciting things that
(00:34) you have going on that maybe it'll be a nice little Resurgence of mine absolutely it's definitely yeah if if it's not the only thing you're doing or else or or pretty close to it it's just way too time consuming sometimes yeah yeah it still serves an important like Avenue and what I want to do in my life too I think it served as like it was a focal point during covid you know absolutely other stuff comes in and then you're like all right that's more important but why I did in the first
(01:04) place is like still important to me and so it's like what was that reason just like I think I mean the best parts were just one just being um vocal like knowing I was a very opinionated person about music in the industry and whatever and so it was just like a platform to just like express my opinion on that instead of just like my same three or four friends um and then I met a lot of people from it you know she wants all the attention uh yeah I met tons of artists from it yeah and actually that's the second the
(01:39) third was just it was like every other week three hours straight not even looking at my phone pure it was just pure conversation Good Times uh I think that's my favorite part that gets lost a lot in life in general so how often do you get to sit down with somebody whether you know them or not I mean I have like people like you you're different because I do get the chance to sit down and just talk to you because of Fridays and stuff yeah but most people you don't get the chance to just talk especially without phones what are you
(02:08) doing Luna yeah there you go loons she's gonna [ __ ] new guess this time around but uh yeah it's definitely there's something about having that time without the phone that's just [ __ ] yeah necessary in it no matter how I feel before the podcast the second I I turn it on and I sit down and I realize like my shoulders can drop I'm good to go yeah it's just it's like the greatest relief of the week yeah I mean when you work in music there's your meeting artists you work with artists they're a lot of the times you
(02:51) still have the communication like of speaking to them but usually the context is kind of misconstrued compared to when you like do the do a podcast or when you sit down when I have a dedicated conversation yeah you know usually it's like about work or usually you're wearing a certain kind of hat so you're so the what you're saying is maybe a little bit skewed I mean I never I'm not like disingenuous with most of the stuff I say but sometimes you know you it's like there's a there's a time
(03:20) and place for everything yeah there's a professionalism that's expected too you know like when you're when you're at your job and and you're not the only person whose food is on the table there yeah uh you gotta you got a job to do you gotta work and again like you're saying you don't have to be disingenuous but you got to be professional yeah we don't have to be professional here like we can just talk and and you're also you're sitting there all day with new inputs from work that I'm sure is just going
(03:45) through your head and then it gives you the opportunity to to put it on the table whether it's right or wrong having that that space to talk about it is it's invaluable yeah and with new people consistently yeah that's another thing because you talk to the same people then you start getting into a loophole that's like with any job and it happens a lot of music because you work with people and so it's you know the people is the product whatever it is so it's easy to just get wrapped up in this like drama
(04:14) it's like inherently a dramatic place to work because you're trying to get you you know it's very psychological I guess it's also I mean it's like the entertainment business there's so much of it that is a facade there's a lot of it that's happening very quickly not a lot of time to think what the [ __ ] is she doing yeah yeah uh I like it um there's there's just something about it where it's like if you're thinking too much you're gonna miss what's happening yeah and it's just
(04:47) kind of go go go so having this place to just not not have to worry about what's happening next is is nice that's a good point what was your we were just kind of talking about it but what was an episode from your podcast that you you really loved doing yeah the other one I really liked was the one with Nick Lang and Mike Del Rio and Costa yeah uh those dudes are just some they're so their death of music is insane yeah they were just on a whole different like turn of genre and I was like I can't follow it I
(05:24) felt for like the the first time it's kind of like a egotistical thing to say but I felt like I was like oh I ca I can't follow where these guys are going like they're talking as if they like were currently studying like different corners of the world from like the 70s and like classical music and like just like really throwing crazy references I was like you guys are Geniuses like you guys really uh are connecting Corners that most people who I know don't even know music about so that was a fun episode
(06:00) um the one with Flosstradamus and Mickey was great because we went live and that was like a fun one they also just have a fun they're so close yeah that it's fun to watch them like bicker but also like really enjoy each other's company yeah I mean Kurt is like he's an opinionated guy um so he's very outspoken yeah and we were just like smoking cigars and [ __ ] I would say Mickey is too yeah they both are Curtis sprinkles his little um he has what are the little uh like quirky um puns yeah yeah he's got
(06:37) he's got like Dad jokes yeah but he's a he's a really he's a really obviously he's a really good dude um but he's a really uh really smart guy he's like he's got really interesting takes and he's seen he's seen an industry start and flourish yeah like not many people you meet were around for obviously wasn't there for the beginning of like the G house and the tech house days in the EDM world but he was at the beginning of when it went mainstream was one of the biggest artists in the world
(07:08) as far as in that genre I find people who are electronic artists typically tend to get like just in marketing in general music Marketing in general I think maybe if I'm thinking out loud it comes from a place that's like the DJ maybe historically has served the crowd so it's like inherently like real-time music marketing yeah where you're like this song works this song doesn't obviously a lot of these people are making their own music and they're like creatives and that right but I think inherently in the genre there's
(07:41) something that's like serving the club serving the Dance Floor serving the absolutely you know with and there's all these multiple versions of that sort of dance genre but still I think it's it there's a different approach to them being like an artist where you know your songwriting and like lyrics aren't just on the Forefront of the genre yeah right and so there's something a little bit less personal in the sense of like storytelling maybe um and you're just like creating music and Melody and different sounds I mean
(08:12) you're exploring sounds you're using you know new equipments and newer genre at least in his sense yeah it definitely comes from a different place it's got different purpose behind it yeah and and I've done both I I used to DJ that was my for a long time and I played shows and played festivals and that that was it and there's something about being on stage where you don't have to play an instrument or sing or do something of that nature where you get to really see everybody there and connect in that
(08:42) way versus because you don't have the the lyrics that you're singing to them or the the instrument you're playing to add that connection between them yeah well it's almost like the music itself is more of the performance and there's like there's other elements to the performance then when you see a good yeah you see a good band there's chemistry that you can tell there's a musicianship that you can see that resonates the way the person's singing what there's there's a lot more
(09:06) layers when when it comes to adding those other ingredients a lot of the the dance stuff for EDM or whatever it may be um you know there's crazy ass light shows and then there's you know drops and there's moments of other added you know Design Elements to the show that's part of the creative it's also it's like a bunch a bunch of nerds a bunch of people who are using technology to create art so there's this automatic like like The Tick Tock world is very good at marketing I think it's because they're
(09:37) so there's their understanding of technology and how people use it not just how they use it is so high yeah that like if you're if you're gaming enough you know what you want to see in the game if you're if you're you're whatever whatever you do if you do it enough you you understand that you know the nuances of what you're looking for and I think that's what pretty much electronic music was it was like how do we get these noises and make people want to listen to it you have to really push it it's a
(10:04) very Progressive genre yeah you know that's a good point too so kind of I I know we we've done one before but just give everybody a little explanation of what you do yeah so I work at Epic Records uh part of Sony music uh sort of threefold job I mean marketing um product management and then recently uh doing experiential and so those are all three different things essentially even though it's like one job um product Management's more of like the you know internal communication amongst the entire label and the Departments you
(10:48) know and essentially taking the message that we're gonna market right up from the artists and making sure the entire team of people are aligned with what that message is and what that vision is so like the the veins of the company you're the core you're the centerpiece and and you're ultimately kind of managing all these other departments you're like the centrifuge of of all that um because there's a lot of artists on the roster I mean a lot of the times you are trying to get everyone to pay
(11:14) attention to your artists because there is so many people and you can only prioritize so many but you are talking to the RSM manager every day and you want to see them win so they may not be as like again priority or um bringing as much revenue you know for the label or whatever because of the model that's been stated but you still are trying to get you're trying to find internal Champions I mean that that part is fun it's more psychological because it's the people who you work with every day so you have
(11:43) to be a person who's passionate you have to be a cheerleader you have to be someone who is likable to a degree because at the end of the day you know the accountability can sort of get lost a bit like just across the board again with like if an artist is not a priority but then who's going to care I always say well there's the interns get really excited right assisted like all these younger people who really want to do stuff and don't have kids and don't have a family they're going to be people who
(12:15) actually like get really really passionate about wanting to work maybe a new artist who deserves development you know but isn't as far along or got signed off of a co-signer you know does it mean they shouldn't get a deal or they're not deserving of a team but it it does just take a little bit more you know work if there's absolutely people involved so that's yeah and we were talking about this earlier and it's I work for a label smaller label but a label and working for a label because we
(12:45) both started as musicians producers whatever in that world and working for it you start to to realize that everything goes both ways you can have an artist who screwed over but you can also have an artist who's screwing people over it it's just it's like a an equal effort sort of world and I had such an interesting not interesting I had such a regular look at it before I started working for the label of the only reason and something can go bad is if the artist gets [ __ ] over and then you start realizing that there's like
(13:19) what it takes to be an artist of a a massive massive stature yeah it's I mean it's it's a massive career the amount of work it takes and the amount of of uh accountability you have to take is it's it's extraordinary I've never seen anything like it I didn't expect it yeah yeah I mean I always I think it's all about expectations what we were talking about before on both sides it's it's if you're at the label you have to understand the expectation of the artists a lot of artists maybe don't want to be
(13:53) the biggest artists in the world yeah or and they don't want to do certain things or they are they just they're happy with just performing to 2 000 people or something we're almost in this mindset especially with mate you know with the major label system where you want to make as much money money as possible it's just like any business and so you want to just make every Artist as big as possible But ultimately I think you're rewiring it like you're reverse engineering like the expectation well okay
(14:21) do you want to be what artist do you want to be like do you want to perform in stadiums do you want to be you know and then there's conversations you start then the psychology TAPS in if you're trying to talk to an artist and a lot of the times at a label you're convincing them to post on social media or the the sort of debate about labels you know telling artists to post on Tick Tock and stuff which is kind of just like it's a funny like you know like argument I see online a lot um but in general it's like
(14:55) um and then I guess I guess to go back to the expectations like well artists have a certain expectation of a label you know um where they think a lot of things are going to happen or they think it's like this TurnKey situation or and I get every artist's story is different when they sign but there's yeah there's a lot of complexities to okay well how close are you with the manager how hard is the manager working how hard are you working right I think the biggest thing is like you can't outwork the
(15:25) manager you cannot work the artist yeah because you're just you know we've you do that too much then you're sort of just spinning your wheels or whatever how does it normally work with the major is the manager working for the label or they a third party no I mean managers are typically I think there's a lot of managers who have relationships with labels there's managers who are a little bit further along who maybe are part of management companies maybe they brought their artists to a management company now
(15:56) they're splitting up the management differently like maybe that management company sort of brought in not only the artist but the manager too that happens some managers are just buddies or friends you know and something goes viral and now you have someone who doesn't necessarily have the experience or the or the certain perspective of other more you know other better managers absolutely uh some artists don't have managers uh sometimes someone at the label is serving as the artist manager which is
(16:25) never a good idea yeah good situation is that common yeah it is pretty common unfortunately yeah you know I feel like having that that third party in between is probably pretty pretty important yeah it definitely is I mean because you you need at the end of the day the person who's working at the label is working with tons of different artists yeah and the manager really shouldn't be you shouldn't there shouldn't be a manager who's managing 15 artists one person man it just doesn't you know like I technically oversee
(17:02) maybe like 15 artists on my roster my marketing roster but they're not all the priority and you know what I mean I can only do so much for that one RS that's why there's multiple departments and all this whereas a manager you know there's a certain kind of mindset that they have to have they have to really like they they really want to want success for the artist you know almost like they have to feel like they are part of the project I think at the end of the day most of the time managers are
(17:31) more on The Chopping Block because they're not on salary you know a lot of these people are they're living just like an artist is maybe they're living off of the um advance that you know they're getting 20 of or something and um you know there's also cases where like you see a lot of managers just come for money too you know and you're like how are you making a living you know just because you manage this one artist and I'm talking Indie sign whatever oh yeah and all they do is just
(18:00) manage artists you're like how do you make a lit you know yeah and so I think naturally that becomes an Avenue because money is not need it's not necessary or needed do you think that which one do you think makes a better manager somebody who doesn't have to worry about money therefore they can kind of go all out or maybe the opposite somebody who's who needs the money so badly that they're hungry yeah I mean that's always like the that's like the conversation right I always think that like if you have
(18:29) adversity and you want it and you need it yeah and you had like if you don't have dinner on the table at the end of the day you have to make ends meet you're gonna have to do something I always think that's going to get you further along yeah I mean this is like an age-old conversation if you have a hundred thousand dollars sitting on your sitting you know in your living room and you can take that and work and grow your artist over two years that's cool too it's really all about like your perspective
(18:56) how your parents raised you you know like how what do you want what's your passion what drives you if money just makes you more comfortable it's it's becomes more of just like a human level thing yeah no that's definitely true and I guess it's like what we were talking about the other day on the walk is like sometimes you put yourself in a situation where like you know what [ __ ] it I'll figure it out and then you get to the point where you just you have to figure it out and it becomes something
(19:19) that you realize like you can fit this into your life and make it work you just sometimes need to just kind of go for it and do it yeah and like or you don't if you worry too much about being hungry you might not jump into it but also like there's that that's a weird dichotomy because it's if you wait to be wealthy in order to do the things that you think you can do you could be waiting forever yeah or you could be waiting a day you never know yeah there's need and then there's want yeah and there's the
(19:49) success stories span both of them you know you could look at any big artists and say well they came for money they came from money these artists didn't come for money yeah you know I think the the documentary story is more exciting when they don't come for money you know racks the richest type like that is a more encouraging story but there's certain artists that have their head on straight that came from some money and you know and nepotism is like a you know there's a whole other debate on that and
(20:15) stuff and it's like you know I think it's all at the end of the day is being grateful of the situation that you that you have and that you were given or whatever and it's the kind of growth you see for yourself and for the other people who you can bring up around you you know yeah yeah I I guess a lot of this is just like some a good head on your shoulders with a lot of money is going to be a good head on your shoulders yeah it's just yeah you're gonna do with it yeah exactly and it's it's the work that goes
(20:47) behind and that's also part of it is just because you have money doesn't mean you're not putting in work and that's something I see a lot too is like like I've seen this a lot with people who've been on the podcast that maybe found success on Tick Tock or on whatever it is first then they go into music and of course there's all the people there's the the Logan Paul's of the world that had the money so we got the studio time and it was that's all it was but like some people just because they found
(21:16) success somewhere else first doesn't mean that that they're not working just as hard as you to get to get to get the next gig to get the next goal going yeah yeah it's awesome it's all like subjective to each person's you know who who is Epic Records specifically like a specific category is that why it's it's off of Sony or was it separate first then Sony bought it um I don't know the history of it too much I know I believe in like the ER in the early 80s it was CBS records um and then it changed to Epic I mean
(21:55) epic there's history to Epic that goes way back I think back to like Sly and the Family Stone Michael Jackson was on Epic oh wow uh I don't I don't know like when it converted between maybe it went to CBS and went back to Epic or it means would make sense that CBS was older it was maybe part of a larger media conglomerate or something um but yeah it's I want to say the 50s since I've done the history of it but there's nothing I think genre wise like it is definitely a leader in Hip Hip Hop
(22:29) like obviously it you know I mean like most Majors yeah like we're signing more hip-hop acts and the nature of the of the marketplace but you're also riding around in a [ __ ] in Ozzy Osbourne's uh what is the [ __ ] what were you guys driving around the country an ambulance an ambulance yeah then you have some OG's like Ozzy and like Sade and Mariah Carey and people who have been signed for 20 plus years but then you're also posting uh uh Madison Bear beer bear beer which is such a cool cool [ __ ] scale that you
(23:03) get to work with what's is there like a side of it or a a world of genre that you enjoy doing the marketing for the most uh yeah I thought you know I think it's like okay naturally everyone's gonna be biased to the genre that they like the most at the end of the day that's gonna happen people who say you're not biased it's like just lying right they're gonna lean into the stuff that they naturally like more um so like you know I grew up on the rock and roll stuff I mean my dad wasn't a
(23:34) huge Sabbath fan but I like oh you know Ozzy's Emoji he's a legend he still has it there's a certain kind of like you want to do you could you can do things you know again it's all Dynamic right so I was able to do things with Ozzie's Camp you know um I presented certain ideas that they were behind and Sharon was like a big proponent of and like that doesn't always happen with bigger artists because sometimes they're like don't even talk to us you know yeah um so they were very personable with you
(24:02) yeah I was lucky in that regard um and I sort of came in because when I first worked Ozzy you know it was 10 years since his last album this was ordinary man a few years ago and this is when he did the collide with post Malone and Travis Scott and then he brought in Andrew watt who was the young producer and so I think they wanted me to come on and bring like a younger perspective to that project so that was cool too I had more of a purpose than to just like work another Aussie record and come in and be like part of something
(24:30) bigger I had a purpose of like here's a new this could be a new era of Ozzie right it's been 10 years since we had music he's captured multiple Zeitgeist moments through his career with Sabbath and then solo Aussie and then ozfest changing you know revolutionizing festivals and live shows and then obviously the the TV show and then oh yeah he continued doing TV show right so there's all these different verticals he has so to be part of something that's like all right well she's in like another era what what else
(25:00) has he impacted culturally so that was like a fun part with that that's got to be such a wild experience to to see obviously working on it's crazy but then when you're actually driving in that or you're you're seeing a massive 50-foot blow up to all of him like understanding that those ideas whether they fully or partially came out of your head and now they're at this level where it's on a major label with somebody who everybody in the [ __ ] world knows yeah whether it's him biting
(25:27) the bat or his songs or just his cultural reference yeah I mean that's that's that's a really [ __ ] it's a really like memorable thing to get to do yeah it's fine I mean you know it but it's also I get the same sort of gratification that there were satisfaction whatever um from like building with the new artists that no one knows about absolutely and ultimately that doesn't get enough credit because in this industry you know people can just get a quick cosine say they work with this
(25:59) artist and then all of a sudden it's on their resume and they're throwing it around and no one asks how much you're actually involved in it yeah and you're just like well Ozzy's gonna be just fine without me like this is not I'm not doing anything that's crazy right like you know obviously I'd like to contribute some new ideas and have new audiences listen to him like that if I can get that little sliver right but I'm not I'm not changing the world with what's happening with him
(26:27) right but it's also one of those things that with the only way you could know that is if you had some way to go back in time and not do it like it's one of those things it's so easy to say that your contribution was it's great but not necessary but then without it it could have just been a completely different world and maybe maybe things wouldn't have worked out the same and sure it's I I hear what you're saying and I agree with you but I think it's also worth understanding that
(26:53) just because just because if you weren't there things still would have happened doesn't mean they would have happened the way they needed to to the extent that they did yeah yeah I mean again I think it's like it is easier to do it's easier when you have when there's a when there's people listening yes and there's people listening you can and especially for someone like Ozzy and I you could do a lot of like he has done so many things right and there's so many Die Hard fans that ultimately you get to
(27:25) a certain point you could really do anything and everyone's still gonna love it that's like a crazy scenario if you can get to that point where you're just so talented you're so good you could really do anything and people are gonna be like maybe they won't personally like the music but they're going to respect it because they because you're you've been around for so long and you've proven yourself yeah um but I do think just like again it goes back to like Integrity of or or focus on
(27:53) just artist development in general I don't think there's like enough um weight put on this the sort of satisfaction of a new artist and the small wins and it's all it's all perspective right it's it's still in this in this industry it's cooler to say you work with Ozzy than it is to say you work with this new name artist I like the idea of flipping the script right and having like this is sort of what I would do if I started a label right there would be some sort of and maybe some other Majors
(28:26) do it I think Interscope might do like a basically like a development incubator system sort of scenario um it's like what Max Martin does with producers yeah I mean there's a lot of different Circles of people who are focusing on breaking and developing artists yeah you know but in my experience at the label with creative and more creative art Direction design marketing the focus has never come out of the label system I don't think it really exists in general like I don't think there's any big uh
(28:58) brand or business of Music marketing it really just sort of still falls on like the artist manager and label uh agencies are sort of like they have a different pathway and um but I think if there was a the model of the label that put more of an emphasis on of that incubator team right and usually it's like well what's cool to work on right yeah here's here's a good example because I'm like when I work at Google they had a team that was Google X right and I think it was Google X and it was on the like the top floor
(29:39) of the office building in New York when I worked there and they basically worked on new projects they were just a team that were a bunch of creative dudes and designers and technologists and they were just like innovators and they were like new it was even like new business because they weren't even thinking about making money I mean granted Google had so much money they could have a team like this but you could still scale it you know and they were like there was they were mysterious in the Nate because you
(30:09) didn't know where they worked and they kind of their own little thing and you're like that's kind of cool but it's all new things it's all new ideas there was zero percent Revenue coming out of this team it didn't mean anything to the business and the growth of the business of Google absolutely and but they were the coolest they were like who are those people you work on that team that's crazy like Google X you get like it was like separate right and so my point is that if there was an
(30:34) emphasis let's just say labels or in the business that made it cool to creatively work with new artists and like that was more special than just being put on a Bieber project or being put on an Aussie project or a Travis project then I think the whole narrative would would flip about true artist development yeah then people who have had more experience right would actually be like nah I want to work on this team now I want to break artists because I think scooter says this [ __ ] he's like uh I think he was
(31:04) when he wanted to work with a country artist or something because everyone kept telling them oh you only know pop Acts or oh you can only break hip-hop the next wins are how many different artists can you break if you get to that level then that's like then then you're like going horizontally across different verticals like you know what I mean like well I guess he's a really good example of that because yes now he's obviously working with the biggest of the biggest but they didn't most of them didn't start that way when
(31:30) they were when they started with him maybe they had some leverage or whatever but he's he's a really good example of somebody who's broken a lot of people yeah and there's I I agree I think there's a there's like a [ __ ] thrill to that too of understanding that what you say first of all has more weight than if you're in a CR if you're in a crew of 80 people who are all doing the same thing for one person yeah yes you could you could do a lot of great with it but your your your voice
(31:58) has a lot less weight to it yeah when you're in a situation like that and as you and a team of five people and the only thing that matters is how much energy you put into it and it's not a forced energy it's like the same thing as some of the best songs are made when you're not trying to make a song you know when you're there because you enjoy it and you're going to be there either way it there's there's something really cool about that and I think you get a I think when you when you go into it
(32:23) without those expectations of I have to do what they've done already then you can do things that are genuinely new and genuinely exciting versus going to work with a Justin Bieber you're not going to be like yo do a country song even if he wants to you're going to say don't do that that's not going to work for you you've already done this we know it works let's continue with that yeah yeah it's just you see there's it seems to be more of the mentality of why we started all of this and why most people in this
(32:51) industry started yeah and I mean there still has to be like a lot of these big artists are you know the the percentage of Revenue is on split evenly across the entire roster right for for most Majors right like maybe there's some companies that are a little bit more even but for the most part you're still making most your money off your biggest artists it's like it leans it's like the 80 20 rule type thing right like 20 of your uh artists are making 80 of the revenue whatever that sort of thing is
(33:21) um so I'm not saying don't put an emphasis on that because you're a bit if you're a business person you have to understand that I just think that internally you can make an exciting culture if you uh create a team that's dedicated to developing artists and like just the nature of their work and the process is uh uh more like inspiring to be a part of or something you know how would that happen would you have to make like some sort of subsidiary of uh uh label that's already found success where
(33:54) each to be on that label you're capped like to be on that label you have you can't have this many you have to be under this stats versus the opposite I mean if you wanna we can like dissect it a little bit I think it's like first you gotta look at what do people care about like when they work at when they're growing in the industry right typically when you have bigger artists you get more people calling you right and you put your name on this and that and typically that you know the the hierarchy is like the older more
(34:27) experienced people work with the bigger artists right I think that there has to be and that's basically how value set right if someone someone for someone to know that I'm a good marketer and I'm a creative it's going to take longer for them to understand that because they have to get to know me a little bit more or they have to know they have to know like oh no he really did all those things or he really or it didn't just come from the artist or you know what I mean absolutely and so some
(34:55) validation right side of maybe you right and so it just takes longer so it's easier for me to just say yeah I work with Ozzy or yeah I work with Bieber and it's like well what did I re again it goes back to my other point I just think that if there's something that was more inherent value like it comes from leadership at the company if I had my own label and I'm the leader I'd be like putting more of an emphasis on the team of people who are coming up with Innovative marketing ideas the value then comes in the idea
(35:24) and execution and how impactful it was right then just like hopping onto a bigger artist and doing the run at radio and doing this and spending the money here and hitting and all that kind of stuff so I think It ultimately comes down to a company culture thing where it's like a major could restructure you know like if you're a big major you could dedicate a team towards it you know everyone works you could you could say okay these four people are gonna work uh the 50 of the developing art like and you tear it off right yeah some people
(36:01) you know it's like make it a commodity also where it yeah it's like something you want to get to to be able to work with new people yeah just exactly flip the script right yeah everyone wants to work with the biggest artists what if what if you started at the label and you were actually like actually the cool thing is to work with the newer artists yeah you know what I'm saying and the only people who find that cool are not the generalization but when you're new in the industry and you can like have a
(36:25) conversation with the artists you can hang out with them like that was what is exciting when I first started just like oh like you get under the hood with one artist and like I am doing so much for them and you're passionate about it whatever again you don't have that same sort of accessibility with a bigger one I think also a lot of people aren't good at having that conversation therefore they'll never be in that situation where they have that connection because just a lot of people don't know how to talk to
(36:47) people or aren't comfortable with it or it's not their thing clearly you and I enjoy talking to people yeah outside of the fact that we have a podcast that's just we're that's who we are yeah he's like there's a person ability to being able to connect with people in the way that you do which I think also teaching that and promoting being a person who's going to go have conversation think about how long this industry told you until you are the the head of the room you keep your mouth
(37:13) shut you're flying a wall yeah yeah I mean that's every internship I had at every Studio growing up was that yeah you have to be encouraged to get active you know and to bring ideas and again it's a culture thing totally um but yeah I mean also it's like if you play again what I said before it's like what is what how does the industry rate value how do they see value um it's obviously subjective but ultimately there's still like what are the things like Forbes 30 under 30.
(37:44) a lot of people know it's but that's still this kind of like weird like award-based thing that exists and a lot of people still care about it and there's billboard for you and therefore there's all these like metric award things right that exists and for whatever reason it's an industry thing people need their ego stroke like all that kind of but you know how could there be this other sector that's like you know like everyone knows that this is the coolest creative team in the business that are breaking artists at a
(38:16) crazy speed where they're coming out with crazy ideas like I would like to be part of a label that is churning like marketing ideas like and executing them at a high level consistently and then that label is known for that and then it and then you're actually breaking the mold then you become a commodity right and then you're not just another major label and that's been around doing the same thing it's entire history you know a good example is like I love that company Mischief in Brooklyn oh yeah
(38:45) it's like mschf or whatever clothing company right no so they do well they work with like clothing brands they're basically kind of like I mean you could say they're like a viral marketing agency but they're just like way cooler their ideas are like um I mean they did they did like that ATM machine pop up at Art basil yeah where you go up and put in your card and then it's like it's almost like social experiments yeah they go up and they rank everyone based off the the money that's in their bank
(39:15) account that's not for a brand that's not even like your typical agency work it's almost like their own uh experiment yeah as you will yeah and it's like it's it's almost art in itself it's like marketing is the art form and it's like a it's it's performance art in a sense they did like the shoes the Nike shoes for little Nas X had like the blood on them they got a bunch of them they did the big red boots like they'll do those drops they did these like oh okay yeah they went viral I mean they
(39:43) they're very good at viral marketing yeah but it's not like viral Marketing in the sense of like you know cheap like digital agencies that are just be like we're gonna jump start your video from one View to a million and it's gonna you know what I mean like that's almost making fun of the consumer I mean and having the super consumer consuming the fact that they are the performance are it's like to me it's like that's true R when you have something you know when it's like Banksy like shredding his
(40:12) artwork in front of people like that's just like man that's brilliant it makes you the product yeah exactly exactly yeah it's like oh it's on you now you thought it was over there actually the the Arts you yeah and it's your reaction to everyone freaking out because you just shredded artwork that everyone was that everyone uh valued at this certain kind of thing like another thing that this company did uh they had it was called like a s I forget what the the campaign was called but it was basically a cease and desist
(40:43) campaign so they launched a bunch of like uh it was like a Grand Prix branded thing so they created a bunch of Grand Prix like race car styled like jackets essentially or a tire and they did different ones with different major brand logos on it which they did illegally essentially and before they launched the campaign you could choose your favorite brand like you could essentially buy the shirt with the brand on it right again they didn't get clearance from these Brands but the whole idea was like the first brand to
(41:18) send us a cease and desist letter all the people who had bought that shirt's brand got a like a free like got a bunch of other free merch that the company made so it was like this it was a it was a cease and desist race of Brands it was like it was shining a light on how quickly brands are to like secure their logo you know what I mean who said the first one dude I think it was uh uh maybe Subway I think was the first one it's it was just funny though because it was like they they were doing the illegal act was the campaign so cool
(41:57) there's something about about doing the crazy [ __ ] that's in your head that you know is gonna work but it's a little too crazy to to want to be the person in the room to say it yeah it's like when you see a video on Tick Tock of somebody like getting one video and then making fun of it somehow or like ending it and you're like wait that's so obvious yeah that's [ __ ] genius it's so obvious why didn't I do that and it's just like being that that brain that can look at something and
(42:22) figure out how to manipulate it in a way to resell it right or to have it in front of more people's eyes I think it's it's it's fun yeah I mean great art sort of is looking at society and playing with it and toying with it right and and it's why it's why good art people hate you know yeah you always it's divisive that's the best art right it's looking to get out of emotion one way or another course so you're looking at how people reacting whether it's humans or companies or you know
(42:52) it's and it's and it's it's adding a Whimsical narrative to what's happening in a way that is a little trick it's like it's tricking people a little bit like it's it and and that sort of outcome usually is really fun so anyway that's just like an example of a company that I really I admire what they do and the way that they you know how like clothing companies do like shoe drops and they'll like number their shoe drops they number their marketing drops like their campaign
(43:20) drops oh interesting a lot of the stuff they do you know they do this like one shoe that's like a you know remember that candy Gobstopper like the ball that would change color they had like a Gobstopper shoe that like the more like the the soul wore down it would change this layer yeah yeah I'm just like that's just like a fun idea like the the product is the idea you know it's not the shoe no one's who gives a [ __ ] about the shoe it's like those red boots right the the product became being able to
(43:46) wear them look who's gonna buy them yeah there we we knew who was gonna buy them yeah this is this is the this is the point and why we made it you know and all the people who you knew would never buy those didn't we're gonna make it ridiculous on purpose to show you look at what this means about uh internet and fashion culture that it doesn't matter what you're buying it's all apply on the whole thing so fun it's like there was another I think you know that company called I think yes Theory they were
(44:14) another one on YouTube big fan of yes Theory maybe it might not have been yesterday I think it was like and this some of the same guys I don't remember but they did the same sort of thing where they like they were like let's um where they had like a fake Justin Bieber eating a burrito that was yes there yeah yeah and to see how fast they tried to hit the front page it's just like a reflection of society a reflection of our culture and that's more of the purpose of it it's not the purpose of
(44:39) like oh we just want to go viral or go viral yeah well that's I really like them for that reason because they show the dichotomy between that because you can do it for something like a Justin Bieber eating a burrito from the middle versus the side and people go nuts over it but you could also do it just with the concept of of something as like mundane as as you just got to give people a chance and there's like a lot of good people in the world and they go and they stand outside asking for somebody to go on a random
(45:08) vacation to Japan in 30 minutes and they'll stand out there and yeah and they always find somebody yeah and they've been going for long enough I do believe them I do believe they're probably doing it pretty honestly yeah yeah and it's just being able having a big idea the only thing stopping you from doing it is the determination to do it yeah whether it's a funny idea like those [ __ ] boots yeah or it's something amazing like bringing some random person to Japan and giving them an experience
(45:35) like that yeah yeah I mean I feel like we went off on a tangent a bit but that I think that sort of like to me that kind of marketing is interesting that sort of creativity is like rarely even tapped in in the music industry rather than the label business so man you got a wild very very interesting mind it's always it's always cool talking to obviously I like talking to you because we're good friends but I feel like your perspective on everything that we've talked about whether it's the Human Experience or the
(46:12) music experience or whatever it seems like you you pay a lot of attention to your surroundings and weather and experience was positive or negative you take it in and you store it have you always kind of had that taken on the world where you're you're very analytical about it um maybe at times you know like it's not like every day you're sort of like um trying to piece together things and be you know it's it's it's how like interested you are and how much you want to explore new ideas and how much you
(46:52) want to you know like and that comes from understanding I think ultimately what your passion is and being self-aware actually goes back to what I was going to say before about working with different artists the Madison and the Aussie yeah and like this is a good example or maybe an extension of what your question is because again it's easy if if I work with an artist who is not maybe uh inherently making music that I would like outside of my workplace yeah right it's easy for me to be like I don't get
(47:25) it I don't know that world I don't know that it's just subconsciously you know again why there'd be biased towards why I want to work with someone who like I that I actually surround myself with with friends and I go to the kind of shows and whatever and there was a certain point where I was like I actually am going to flip the script and I'm gonna become more interested in the artists who are maybe making music that I typically wouldn't listen to or my friend group or my circle wouldn't listen to
(47:54) for a number of reasons one it was an opportunity for me to explore the culture and the and the audience yeah who are they where do they live what are they talking about what does it mean to them what is the certain kind of like um you know like slang from a certain area they're using a why and to me that exploration was more interesting the second part of that was I like the idea of can I Market this artist so well that someone in my friend Circle who also wouldn't typically listen to the artist would have would
(48:28) maybe not like the music because I'm not changing their music but they would respect the artist if I can connect that person over here in this circle and then the artist who's making music over in this circle to me that's a win yeah that's the same conversation about putting more of an emphasis on the artist development team right I think it's cooler to connect those dots than to just say well I'm gonna just live in my lane and I'm gonna listen to the rock music and that whatever I came up and
(48:53) grew up in and not really give any Focus towards the other stuff in that process I've sort of what your question was is I've found more of a desire to like connect the dots understand things that I typically wouldn't have you know look under the rocks that are that are the least flipped you know there's I heard this this podcast earlier I don't know who it was but that was speaking but he was saying how I think he's sort of like the man's man sort of guy toxic masculinity as the popular
(49:26) opinion would say and he was saying how somebody on his team got a tweet from like Chelsea Handler or something and the guy was saying how important families are whatever and she had this whole tweet saying how you don't know what you're talking about you're this misogynistic male uh women should be more empowered to not have families and this and that and the guy on his team his first response was like that [ __ ] like what the [ __ ] is she saying and he goes He the boss said to him he was like go do as much research
(49:53) on her and do your best to not judge as you're doing it come back tomorrow and tell me if you have the same answer yeah read her her book and she talked about how she lost her brother and her parents fell apart from it and she didn't have a father figure because of it and you like look into somebody's life and you start realizing of course she [ __ ] thinks that because for her that probably would have been the best route yeah that that's what her life taught her and it's just like no matter
(50:19) where somebody is on the Spectrum if you'd like them if you don't if they have similar political beliefs or whatever it's like there's always a story behind the person and sometimes the people who aren't talked about have the most interesting story or or the the most to learn from yeah it's empathy yeah that was if empathy was the priority then a lot of these conversations wouldn't you know to be more growth and I think than not grow yeah you know but yeah to me I think it's you know it's
(50:48) like there's always going to be an audience somewhere from artists even if even if everyone in the room says this music's bad this music's trash the internet says it the whole there's a lane for something everywhere and I I like to me that's more that's fun I I actually would have fun taking trash music and marketing it you know yeah that's a hard how can you Market trash music that's the hardest that's the hardest thing to Market that's when your art becomes almost more valuable than
(51:18) the art you're selling yeah and that's my point in this [ __ ] red shoes it's like they're stupid shoes but you've sold them and and there's a there's another interesting like thing or Earth or or um cultural moment that you're highlighting in in doing so it you then take the emphasis once you show the magic trick you're like actually the products over here yeah we weren't really selling the shoe David Blaine [ __ ] yeah yeah man that's so fun that's such an interesting
(51:47) take and I really hope that if you if you are a kid and you're about to go to school and you're trying to figure out what you want to do and you love the marketing world but you haven't seen that side of it I mean you're a really good example of how how that is such a massively creative aspect of this industry and all the other industries that I think people don't really realize of how how how much you really get to put yourself into it and how not only exciting it can be but how necessary you can be to a situation
(52:22) yeah it's yeah it's pretty cool yeah I mean I think for people who are to that point about who are trying to get in the industry like the one thing that I don't like seeing I think there could be more of it's just I mean it's a reflection of just like internet culture and trolls it's like there's so much just like everyone has an opinion that's usually negative yeah everyone's like this is [ __ ] music this is not get you know and because it's easier right to just Express a negative opinion than to try
(52:56) to find a positive spin to whatever is happening yes again whatever that positive spin or your negative comment is all subjective people are different you know but I do like the idea of going well if this artist is giving me two strengths and 20 weaknesses right um they're late to everything they don't uh answer my text they don't are good interviews they're all you know it's like this is what your the cards you're dealt with are you gonna win off a two nine in hand or are you just gonna flop
(53:29) you know like yeah are you gonna like come on like this is the fun part trying to like extend yourself and so I just think like people become a little bit and we're all habit like creatures of this of like our own opinions become more important in a in a moment than um because it's how we express ourselves you know so that's why it's like easier but instead of like I've tried personally to practice like okay if I express an opinion a lot of people you know it's inherent event about things because you're
(54:03) passionate about it okay cool you've ended all right now take what you just said now you cooled off a little bit now 180 the whole thing and go if you had if you're if you had a bad experience with a co-worker or a friend or an artist get your get it off your chest yeah right then go what are three great things about this person that maybe you know it's just there's just something to flip the script of the scenario and it goes back to your point of like oh if you learn a little bit deeper about who they are
(54:31) whatever that process is I think we don't whether you're a internet troll or whether you're someone who works with artists you don't take the Second Step because it's just easier to say on the first step you know it's like the game we play with Danny where we're all sitting there trying to hum a song and everybody else has to guess everybody's your competitor until there's one winner and then everybody's job is to go compliment that person and such a like obviously it's very different but the
(54:57) dichotomy or the the the the thought behind it is the same it's like you're competing against these people and at the end of it no matter who won or who lost everybody in that group is going to go around and say something great about that person it's just like yeah just just because somebody wins doesn't mean that they beat you always yeah you know and I think that's a hopefully an important thing that's like what we were talking about earlier is I was telling you I'm trying to start this
(55:26) like support group for music podcasts and I think most people's idea of that would be like why would you give them tips why would you want why would they want to give you tips it's like you don't have to be competition yeah I know for a fact that your podcast will never be mine and mine won't be yours because I am not you and vice versa right yeah that's the that is the 100 differing factor that will be there forever so we could have the same people on I'd love to see half if not all the same people on mine and yours
(55:55) and see the dichotomy of how they speak with me and how they speak with you and and see them from a different perspective and like I don't know I think the comedy world's really good at this where everybody coming up with you is either going to be your enemy or they're going to be the latter that you climb up and that's up to you that's 100 up to you and I really do believe that that that's a choice and nobody's going to be competition and if you're focusing on everybody being competition you're not
(56:23) getting your work done you're just [ __ ] thinking about other people yeah and it just seems it seems like a waste of time and it seems like that's not how you go about your your life yeah yeah yeah I agree I mean I I like the process of whether it's a comedian or whether it's a musician or something like what like finding that one like the strength of the edge or the you know even if there's five people in the in you know watching the comedian or if there's five people at the show you know just like leaning a bit more
(56:57) towards like an optimistic Viewpoint yeah because being like oh this night he'll never make it now that person doesn't have a chance it's just like yeah you may be right you know maybe they should just stop what they're doing and be in another industry yeah but just like the the conversation and like the tone we've just like inherited like a bit of a slightly negative tone with a lot of things absolutely it's it's if you're telling your best friend that they could be doing better
(57:26) because you believe they could be doing better that's very helpful if you're telling them that they could be doing better because you think they're doing [ __ ] yeah that's a very different reason you know like letting them know that they're not doing well sucks letting them know that you think they are worth more than where they're at right now it's positive yeah it's just all about intention and how you express your how you express it which I'm [ __ ] working on yeah it's like you what if you tried
(57:50) this and it's like you're you're then exploring new ideas with that prayer in the sense of giving advice right because now we're on just like some psychology type talk [Music] um that's cool but what have you tried these ideas yeah and not like I don't I don't think what you're doing is gonna work yes again there's certain you know people know each other at different levels and sometimes like being straight honest brutally honest whatever sometimes helps whatever again I think
(58:19) I'm just talking generally speaking in my experience in the business is like there's always slightly the negative tone and to me that ultimately discourages more people that encourages them and that's what I think the point is right it's like um maybe you get the one person that gets that like if you know you you say something that's like sort of beating them up for the day and it you know like turns them to be like [ __ ] I don't want to do it you know whatever yeah then I think you can convert those
(58:51) people I just think ultimately in certain work environments no matter what the industry is yeah it's like you can't lean on the on the negative side of the scale it's not gonna help anybody tone yeah Dylan you are the [ __ ] man we'll we'll do many more of these Let's uh shut this [ __ ] off and go drum yeah I love it thank you dude thanks for having me bro always always I appreciate you tell everybody where to go find your podcast even though I know you're not filming it right now I'm such a [ __ ]
(59:21) big fan oh man I haven't plugged my podcast since I uh was recording it uh it's called the rounds it's on Spotify uh we did 25 episodes so and there's a good amount it's on YouTube too right no it's on Instagram rounds radio rounds radios on Instagram that's kind of more fun because there's little Clips we have a little Tick Tock thing you could sort of see that um Spotify is like for longer if you want to like explore new music that's kind of what it like Spotify is that bit
(59:54) um yeah and we're gonna get it going again we're gonna launch a season three comment tag do whatever you got to do make this guy start it up sooner than later Bradley tells me every day so I'm sure if I'm gonna keep telling you until it happens I know dude I love you thanks I appreciate you thank you for watching thank you for listening and to everybody out there remember what to say hi I'm Dylan Brewer and this is an experiment yeah it is love you guys love you brother bye [Music] experience is the experiment
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