Corporate Strategy
Corporate Strategy
131. How to Make Safe Spaces
How does juggling back-to-back interviews while navigating technical chaos sound? Join us in our latest episode of Corporate Strategy, where we ditch our usual setup and embrace the imperfections of recording on a MacBook Pro over Wi-Fi. From seeing each other on video for the first time to my personal account of conducting marathon interviews in a single day, this episode is all about raw and genuine conversation. Listen as we share our triumphs and trials, including the thrill of finding a promising candidate amidst a grueling hiring process.
Ever wondered if AI can truly replicate human behavior? We tackle this provocative question head-on, debating the limitations and societal impact of GPT. From the pitfalls of superficial online content to the controversial use of AI-generated LinkedIn posts, we examine the future of digital marketing and the balance between authentic human interaction and algorithm-driven engagement. Hear our honest reflections and personal experiences using AI tools, weighing their benefits against their drawbacks.
Creating a culture of safety and openness in the workplace is paramount. We explore the delicate balance leaders must strike to foster trust and encourage vulnerability among their teams. Through personal stories and practical advice, we delve into the complexities of receiving and giving feedback, particularly in high-stakes roles like product management. From navigating leadership challenges with honesty to planning our future episodes amidst technical hiccups, this episode offers a candid look at the efforts to maintain a supportive and dynamic work environment.
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It's going to be a fun one. Oh geez, I mean, at least Craig is here. It could be worse, yeah.
Speaker 2:It could have gotten easy. That's a good point Because, like I'm going to have to edit this in them too, I've not set up Audacity. You know, like this episode could be a very interesting sounding thing.
Speaker 1:I'll be honest. Your audio does sound different. Does it sound? A little bit worse. Oh, does sound a little bit worse. Oh, it's not awful, it's.
Speaker 2:It's probably as good as mine is because your audio is always better. Yeah, I'll move the mic a little closer to my face see, I think it's just the quality of the sound level.
Speaker 1:Totally fine it's the same mic. Oh interesting, it does not sound same microphone yeah, it's the same exact.
Speaker 2:Maybe it's a a me problem.
Speaker 1:I've got my AirPod. I think it's that could be.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah. I mean, you're listening to an AirPod, Come on, but I always do that.
Speaker 1:And you usually sound glorious.
Speaker 2:I'm like for this weird hardwired into Ethernet either, because again the computer's out of commit. So I'm going over Wi-Fi to a MacBook Pro. Of all devices, Wow.
Speaker 1:You know people don't know this listening. This is a weird episode. Your computer takes a dump on you and we're looking at each other. We're actually on video. You can't see us, but we can see each other. This is really weird. We're staring into each other's eyes and I just feel kind of awkward.
Speaker 2:There's not going to be any theme music either, because that's on the computer, yeah.
Speaker 1:We're just doing this one raw.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we're doing this one raw.
Speaker 1:It's raw version You're going to get uncut. I mean, it's always uncut.
Speaker 2:But you, I mean it's always uncut. We're going to get unedited. No intro music. It's a raw episode. I need you to sing the theme song Go on, are you ready?
Speaker 1:Yeah, do it. Do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do.
Speaker 2:Welcome back to Corporate Strategy, the podcast. That could have been an email. I'm Bruce.
Speaker 1:And I'm Clark. It could have been an email. I'm bruce and I'm clark.
Speaker 2:we did it, that's good, that's really good victory. It's even better. It's even better than having the actual thing. Yes, it's. It's funny now that I can see you, because I don't even need to ask you, I can see your face. But they can't. Listeners, caners, can't. How you doing, how you doing, buddy.
Speaker 1:I'm alive. Do you want to die? You see I'm putting my face close to the camera. You see how much gray hair and bags under my eyes I have from this week. I can tell you right there how it's been.
Speaker 2:We both look like we aged at least 10 years in a week since I've last seen you.
Speaker 1:I mean, I might say it we're ugly we are it's Ugly Friday, the handsome days are behind us. If I had to guess our collective average age right now, it would be 45, and that's rough.
Speaker 2:Collective. Oh man, I don't know, that might be generous.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's been a week. What happened this week, dude? I had, uh, I am in the in the process of hiring two people for my team okay okay, and I did a series of five one-hour interviews on wednesday. Back to back to back five one hour.
Speaker 2:When did you eat lunch?
Speaker 1:there was no lunch. It's back to back to back. I mean we tried down like 10 to 15 minutes early and we got a little snack in but I, I just you know, I don't know what it is I like to stack these things together. That's the only way. Like I hate having them dispersed, like I just want to go back to back to back, make a decision, and fortunately we did find one really good candidate, so we're to hopefully make an offer here next week.
Speaker 2:Well, at least there's that. But geez, dude, I couldn't If I don't get because I don't eat breakfast. So if I don't get lunch, I'm dead. I'm done Like I've had to send my wife out before when I've had back-to-backs. Just be like hey, I really need you to give me some food, otherwise I'm at a war crime. Uh, it is bad. So props to you, man. That's, that's a lot yeah, I don't find interviews to be taxing, but at least giving them.
Speaker 1:Obviously, you know, receiving an interview is always a little more difficult, but uh, yeah, dude, it was, it was taxing, but it was honestly I thought it was really good. You know, there were a lot of good outcomes. It was interesting too because we you obviously do like a phone interview before and you kind of do a little quick touch base and do a 30 minutes. You know, let me learn more about you. Talk to me through your resume. These were all working session interviews, so kind of our second round, and the people that I had in our initial like ranking of this position, who I thought I would hire, got almost totally reversed, which was really interesting. It was like the working session that is interesting and they were in person.
Speaker 1:The working session interview just really brought out like are they a culture fit? What's their energy? Like, like can they actually do this job really really well and not just talk? Good, and it was great.
Speaker 2:That is super interesting yeah.
Speaker 1:Huh, but it took me about a day, because then I was just, I didn't do anything that day, so everything kind of got backlogged after that and I was just so behind.
Speaker 2:but today I was super productive for once on a friday which was nice it was good. How about you? Yeah, I just realized that the microphone was on the wrong device, so hopefully it sounds better now. You sounded fuzzy in my ears and I'm like, why does he sound so fuzzy? I'm like, oh, it's because my headphones are acting as the microphone right now, so that's gonna be fun for the listeners to hear the real-time change I'm telling you that you, literally it's turn that switch I should your one airpod.
Speaker 2:And now listen to me like the voice of an angel you know like uh, yeah, no sorry, sorry, listeners no, my hubris, I'm not even gonna blame hubris, I'm just gonna blame brain dream, because my week has been exhaustive. I've I'm gonna be out all next week seven days of of well, not seven, like five work days of vacay, but I'm just trying to get everything done before the end of quarter. And you're you listeners are probably like well, end of quarter is like september. What are you doing? Like I've got so many papers and things that like I have to get in review phase before I can get them in print phase. Like next week I send everything out for review and then I come back to get it all cleaned up and good to then get in print so I can get it out before end of quarter. Cause I ain't missing my bonus y'all, I ain't missing it. You got to get that bonus.
Speaker 1:Yes, yeah, so yeah, I mean. So basically, what you're telling me is all product marketing at your company next week is just not happening.
Speaker 2:Well, it's going to. It's going to happen through the autonomy of the review phase, which, if it doesn't happen, it's actually better, because then it's like well, you had a week, you literally had an entire week where I wasn't here and you could do whatever the heck you wanted, and you chose to do nothing. So either one, we can push this out, in which case I'm no longer responsible for the deadline, or two, uh, your review is forfeit. Either way, I win I win over under.
Speaker 1:Now I have the over under. What are the chances they'll actually review your work next week?
Speaker 2:I will. I do think I'll get it. Okay, that's good yeah.
Speaker 1:I hope I don't It'd be great if I.
Speaker 2:If I didn't, it'd be great, because then it's just like and you're sitting there.
Speaker 1:you're like I'm done, I'm sitting there.
Speaker 2:What am I going to? Do All my work was done Because I am held accountable to the products I deliver before the end date, right? So, like, if I don't deliver them by end date, I will get points off on my bonus for the quarter. Wow, which is like you know. It's an interesting way to do it. I kind of like it because I'm a deadline master and I never miss it master and I never miss.
Speaker 2:But when I do you better believe, I have the best excuse. And it's always going to point to the people who approve the MBOs Like, well, you didn't do your thing, so are you really going to slide me on this? And it's like ha ha Fair enough.
Speaker 1:I like that. Well, hopefully, fingers crossed, they actually do something next week. And also even better this is your Friday and you're going to be off for a whole entire week. That sounds incredible.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but I am brain drained today.
Speaker 1:Claire.
Speaker 2:I am brain freaking drained, so you're going to have to lead this. You've been leading it for the last five weeks anyway, but you're going to have to lead it today because I'm dead.
Speaker 1:Q3 has been my quarter in this podcast. I've done all the work except for the editing and the publishing and the bank account part. I don't do any of that, but just coming to the episode with topics leading it, this is weird.
Speaker 2:Bank account part's handled. That's because of our anonymous donor who's keeping us ad-free for the next year. Shout-outs again to that anonymous donor. And if you want to contribute and keep the podcast ad-free, all you have to do is go into the show notes, click that little link all the links and then buy us a coffee.
Speaker 1:I like it. You know, I've never realized how much you talk with your hands until we start doing this right here you're just waving all over the place, yeah pointing.
Speaker 2:I don't even know how to handle it well, and that's the sad thing, right? The listeners never get to see the hand talk. But it is out of control. Yeah, it is. This is not even work too. It's just non-stop hand talk.
Speaker 1:I'm a fiddler. I like to hold things Like you can't see them. They're out of camera. But I got like a tic-tac-toe thing over here. I got pens, I like to click, I got a whole bunch of stuff just to play with.
Speaker 2:No one else.
Speaker 1:The problem with toys is going to like click on the microphone and then you get like the weird little. Yeah, yeah, I'm going to take it. Oh, nice, man. Well, next week should be a good week. I get a question for you.
Speaker 2:Yeah, answer today. I also started out brain dead.
Speaker 1:I like I. I had a meeting 8 am first of all on a friday. Who in their god forsaken would do that? So in a meeting? It's probably european. No, everyone was us-based. Every single person was us. Yeah, I don't know what made zero sense on a friday. But right after that meeting, I literally was like I'm exhausted. I can't look at my email, I can't look at my to-dos. I had a block of time. I canceled some meetings so I was like I'm just gonna have focus time and I was so dead. But then guess what a miracle happened. A miracle I started going through my to-do list like let me just get started, let me just start a few things, and I started cruising. I started picking up this pace, started working through all these items. I took care of the easy ones first and stepped into the hard ones. I did three powerpoints today. What three? Three that I've been sitting on, sitting in that brain. I got them all knocked out. Today, on a friday, you started brain dead. How did this happen?
Speaker 2:I don't know. That's the what's. This is a weird thing.
Speaker 1:I didn't do drugs. I promise, if anybody's curious, I did not do anything. Did you eat illegal? I, I ate, but I did everything normal. I worked out. I work out pretty much every morning, that's normal, so nothing out of the ordinary. I had a dentist appointment, which usually is awful. Dentist appointment before 8 am on a Friday is the worst thing in the world. It was fine. I was like I've done this before, no big deal.
Speaker 2:And then I had this 8 am meeting.
Speaker 1:I'm calling her right now.
Speaker 2:The dentist is what did it? Yeah, you had your brain rattled by a bunch of metal instruments scraping against your mouth bones, and that stimulated the limbics of your brain. Your gray matter vibrated itself into productivity.
Speaker 1:If we all had a dental appointment every day we'd get things done.
Speaker 1:I went right after. First of all, that would be hell. That would literally be my living. Hell was going to the dentist every single day. That would be so terrible, but it's weird because I didn't feel like. I didn't feel brain dead during that. I was fine, and then, after my 8 am, I felt brain dead, like usually, where I go into mush mode, where I just like log into meetings or watch a YouTube video or something, and I didn't do it. Instead, I just started doing stuff and, for whatever reason, energy came back in. Nothing different, though, so to your point. They could have drugged me at the dentist. They could have.
Speaker 2:They shot something at me? Did they use that tool where they it's like a scraper but it shoots water and it vibrates? It's like you know that one? Yeah, they used that. It just just, oh, it hurts me just listening. My my dentist office just upgraded with that, like this year, and I had it done for the first time a few weeks ago and it was so loud in my ears, just like because you can hear it, but they can't hear it because it's like the bone, the actual bone vibrations. Oh my gosh, dude, I've never minded going to the dentist. I like the pain, I can tolerate it. You know the scar? I don't care, I really don't care. Um, that was the first time I've ever really hated being in the dentist office. I just it's so loud and now I'm afraid that it's going to be the new normal and I'm about to deal with this for the rest of my life and become one of those people that's like I hate the dentist you will.
Speaker 1:I guarantee you will, because they do it every single time to me. They did it this time. It sucks, it's awful, the worst thing was they had to put a cap on my tooth and it was awful. I had to get a root canal and everything. So I got that all taken care of. It took I'm not kidding you four different visits to try to get the cap on that tooth. And the dude who walked in every single time six, four massive hands.
Speaker 1:So he just has a massive hand into my mouth all the way to the back and like try to pry it open, put the thing on. I literally was almost about to say I'm like dude, please, please, find somebody a petite woman, please, that could be you put her hand into my mouth. So you got to stop because I was literally sore for the next two days. You got to stop because I was literally sore for the next two days.
Speaker 2:You got this all wrong. Clark the bigger the hand, the better the dentist. Fact they can apply pressure on the scrape that you know no smaller hand can do. You want the the meatiest big, like you know incredible hulk hand digging into your mouth. Put that scraper, you'll never get along.
Speaker 1:You know how long that hand was in my mouth to try to get that cap on and how sore my jaw was the next day. No thanks.
Speaker 2:That's a great sign. If it's sore, it means it worked. You really are a glutton for punishment today, aren't you? I've never had a root canal, so I really don't know. But I have had what's it called. I have had what's it called. It's a divot, Like I have a divot in one of my teeth and it's just a natural divot. So they're like. You know, instead of letting this become a cavity, we're just going to drill it out and fix it every 10 years, and they do so. It's fine, Fair enough.
Speaker 1:I like it. It's not bad. Yeah, I mean, I think we just chalked was so productive on a Friday.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Dental Adventures with Bruce and Clark. Love it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, there you go. What a fun time to be alive.
Speaker 2:What a great time to go to the dentist. Hey, so this episode is a sequel to the previous one. Oh, before we get into that, I know we don't have news. Do you have news? No, screw the news. I just have to call out. Individual contributor posted the best article in our discord and if you're not in the discord same way you can donate to the show. Go to that. All the links, join the discord, get in there in. I believe it's the tech, the tech talk channel. Let me double check that I'm in here. Let me, let me look. Let me look. Uh, yes, oh my gosh. Individual contributor. Posted yesterday, august 22nd.
Speaker 2:Chat GPT is bullshit and, like I know, this is a family-friendly pod. I'm just reading the title. Don't get mad at me, get mad at the people who titled this thing, but it's an actual scholarly article Ethics and Information Technologies put out about chat GPT and like all of the misconceptions people make with it and why this tool is just ruining everything. It's such a good read, like I learned. I haven't finished it because it's hella long, but just shout outs to individual contributor for always bringing the heat with these kinds of like links articles. I just never pass them by because every time I open it up it's like some insane dating in the workplace thing or it's this kind of quality article content and read it, just read it it is. It is mind-blowingly good. Uh, I'll give you like a quick tidbit on why you should do it.
Speaker 2:It makes the. It makes the argument that you know GPT is trying to present like a human. But the best it can ever do is copycat right, cause the LLM is basically copycatting things it sees. But the major difference between humans and GPT we're not going to call it AI because it's not AI. Gpt is goal-oriented nature, because even the worst human is still goal-oriented.
Speaker 2:In some way they want to accomplish something with the actions they're taking, where GPT has no goal other than to present and sound like a human, which is not a very good goal, because that means that what you ask them to do is always goal first, present and sound like a human, meaning that what it's going to give you, it's never going to be worthwhile. And they're very afraid that, with Google and microsoft going so hard on replacing their search engine algorithms with non-goal oriented searching is going to just wreck the internet because it's already feeding bad information to sound like a human with results. Like you know, how do I get this file off of my windows computer and you know, gpt is going to try and shove an answer into your search engine, but it's not actually giving you an answer with the goal of how you get it off in mind. It's giving you an answer that is trying to sound like a human and that shifted my mind. That's interesting. I love it so good. Read the article.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I read the snippet that you posted and, first of all, it just sounds like you wrote it I imagine this is how every single one of the things you wrote like it just starts like this, everything you write starts like this, and then you edit everything out so it can actually be, you know, presented out to your customers. But yeah, I mean I had looked at the article. What's the length of it? How many pages?
Speaker 2:it's long, it's like, I mean it's an actual, like scholarly dig into it's like a really.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's a research it's a research paper.
Speaker 2:It's a research paper.
Speaker 1:yeah, it's an original paper, volume 26, article number 38. That's how you know.
Speaker 2:The read.
Speaker 1:It's not like a blog, it's like. This is a legit long read, and what I love about it is they made it so approachable in terms of how they. It's not a scary research article.
Speaker 2:The title is ChatGPT is bullshit and they literally, like every section, is getting into why certain facets of it are yeah bullshit and I, I love it, I absolutely love it. And and clark, that's such a kind compliment to say that this is how you think I write. I wish I was that smart boy. Howdy, I would be in a different job if I was that smart what if?
Speaker 1:what if this whole thing was written by chat GPT?
Speaker 2:there's no way it's too good. It doesn't say on this journey you're going to uh f of s into the world of chat GP. Like chat GPT writes in such a hideous way, even when you tell it to write like example, this week I've I've written just this long paper on. Well, a couple weeks ago I wrote a long paper on NIST too, but now I'm like creating supplemental content on it and I asked Grammarly AI, which I think is a little bit better than ChatGPT, to summarize my eight-page paper into a one-page blog and like it's still shoved in on your NIST two journey.
Speaker 2:You need to prepare for the overwhelming circumstances that are going to imbibe. And I'm like stop writing Like you think you're smart and write like I wrote. Summarize my article. Don't go off and write your own Like it's. It's so bad. I hate it, but I'll tell you what. It is nice because it just picked all the highlighted points. It wrote it terribly and then I went back through and made it sound like I wrote it and it saved me time. So like there are absolutely circumstances where it works great.
Speaker 1:But, geez, people need to rely on it less because, well, I rely on it less because well, I was gonna ask you do you think all the advances in ai are saving you time or do you think it's getting worse? Like I'm trying to equate it to do, I google things less now it's.
Speaker 2:It's saving me time, but on a on a micro scale. I think that I just I hate calling it AI. I think all of the GPTs and large language models they absolutely save time on a micro level. On a macro level, it's ruining everything and it's going to end up hurting us a lot more. That's what the point of the article is right Like we're ruining things by relying on it too much and just taking it at face value, instead of being critical of it, actually taking the time to look at the output, find the faults, fix the incorrect facts and moving forward. But for every me, there is like a thousand teenagers that just use it to write their paper. So like it's absolutely going to be abused and continue to be abused because no one knows the consequences of the actions they're taking. And every time you post something that's just GPT created without doing any editing of your own, all you're doing is throwing garbage. You're creating garbage from garbage and then adding more to the pile to then have the garbage recreated. It's like recursive garbage.
Speaker 2:So you know and talk. This is going to lead into our topic, which recreates. It's like recursive garbage.
Speaker 1:So you know and talk. This is going to lead into our topic, but I hate that you're personally attacking me right now because I just copy and paste what I get from my LinkedIn posts. I know you do. I can see how angry you are about it and I don't know how to respond to this.
Speaker 2:I saw you write a post recently that I could tell you actually wrote and I responded to it because you wrote it. I wanted to give you a congratulatory Bruce response because I said, oh, clark actually did something today. I mean, firstly, thank you for taking so much of the pod responsibilities recently. But yes, I logged into LinkedIn. I saw Clark actually wrote something. With his physical mind, His human mind did the work for once. I'm like you know what. I'm going to reward him. I'm going to reward him. You know what's hilarious.
Speaker 1:You know what? The funniest thing, the second you did that. I knew I was like man. He only did this because he knows I didn't just copy and paste, it's even better. No one. No one knows me and my real identity. Well, a few people do in the in the discord, but I haven't broadly shared that. So what they don't know is that this post was about eight words.
Speaker 2:Yes, that's great, that's fantastic. I loved it.
Speaker 1:And that's why it makes it so funny because it's like I didn't write this whole thing and that's so novel, like the way that you're sounding right now. I literally wrote eight words and did a picture and that's it. I appreciate it. Guess what? I wrote it from my own brain. I took the picture from my own thumb.
Speaker 2:I did it. Let me ask you. You don't have to do it right now, but like what was the engagement on that versus the AI ones? Less Damn.
Speaker 1:See, this is what you haven't figured out. This is what you haven't figured out. The algorithms are trained by GPTs so they love me, they love to surface me everywhere. Well, yeah, because you're feeding them.
Speaker 2:You're literally adding garbage to the heap. They want more garbage. The heap must grow. Want more garbage the heap must grow.
Speaker 1:Oh, my goodness, that's it. I'm not kidding when I tell you no, you're not. I get way more engagement on GPT. I do edit them, so I don't just copy and paste them in there, but for the most part I type in some garbage. I literally go in there and this is what I do. I type in just like random garbage, not complete sentences like stuff that I want to talk about and like make this a LinkedIn post. That's literally what my prompt is Make this a LinkedIn post. I just type garbage of like this is my goal of what I'm trying to do. This is the kind of tone that I want. This is the topic and it spits out something pretty that pretty much gets what I want, and make a few edits and then I post it, you know.
Speaker 2:now I'm wondering, like, yeah, sure, these posts get more engagement because this is my marketing brain working, right? Like, is LinkedIn engagement even good anymore? Like, maybe you want less engagement, right? Like, exactly, Are the bots feeding you positive reinforcement because you're empowering the bots? It's a good question. I don't know. I'm afraid of the answer, because if that's true, then I need to look for a new job, like yesterday.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean I'm looking at the data, right now I'm done right, like I'm done with marketing, because it's over. If the bots only feed the bots, then there's no human, it's over for you.
Speaker 1:I mean, what kind of job are you going to have in five years?
Speaker 2:I'm not going to be a prompt engineer, I refuse. I'm going to go be a barista at the local coffee sling in place, give me, give me that tall mocha frappe, a latte Chino, just for you.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it is interesting. I'm looking at the engagement right, and what's interesting is that, like, in terms of likes, I think the genuine one I posted got more likes faster, but the ones that are AI based and GPT based they grow steadily, so like. It is a fact that I think they trend better in the algorithm and they get associated to more people so they get more impressions. But real humans like my real handwritten ones, better, faster. Whoa, that's bad yeah.
Speaker 2:That's bad, clark, that's even worse. Right, it is worse. That's what I'm talking about. That's the fear. Right it is worse. Right, it is worse. That's what I'm talking about. That's the fear right. Like if I can no longer drive demand generation activity with human content, like having humans engage with the thing. If the humans are outnumbered by the bots, we have lost the fight and maybe that'll cause a reset. Like, if you know, considering dead internet theory and all of this, maybe we get to a point where everyone just acknowledges it's all garbage and we stop doing it. But I don't know if that's going to happen.
Speaker 1:It's interesting. Yeah, looking at that, it's really interesting that you said that and I looked at my last 10 posts and two out of the 10 were handwritten and they definitely got more likes faster. But over time the AI-written ones have done a lot better, so it's interesting.
Speaker 2:This is where my brain lives all day. If you want to know what the life of a marketer is like, it's looking at things like this and asking the question do I need to update my resume for a completely different line of work? Start learning a different skill. It's going to be over here. I'm going to have to go join product management and do nothing with my life.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean go join product management and do nothing with my life.
Speaker 2:You know, that's what I mean.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean go into product management and be a valuable member of society. Okay, thanks. Well, this leads me to my topic, because I said you're attacking me personally, and the topic for today, this part two of our episode, is how do we create a safe workplace, and I'll tell you what corporate strategy ain't safe. I'm getting attacked live. It was funny is because I can see you. I know you were getting passionate about it, and it wasn't just you saying you were passionate about it, I could see it on your face.
Speaker 1:You felt it, which did make me feel attacked. Yeah, I feel safe?
Speaker 2:Yeah, you shouldn't, you shouldn't. I think one thing that's great about me is not only do I hand talk and do the knife threateningthreatening emoji with my arm all the time, but you can tell it's like I'm ramping up and now I'm going to bite into you verbally. How do you create a safe space? I don't know. I don't know what safe space is. I don't believe in that.
Speaker 1:Do we need a safe word? At least the Ark isn't here. We have Craig, so it feels safer. Anytime Craig is here, I'll tell you that.
Speaker 1:That is true, that is very true. So, yeah, what are the characteristics of this? Like, this topic is really interesting because I mean, I'll say it this way you and I are pretty confident in not only our ability, the way we present ourself and we don't back down to a good fight Like I will go into something and fully expect for war. I'm like I'm ready to do it and if you prove me wrong, I'm going to admit I'm wrong, I'm going to say I'm sorry and all that, but I will embrace this conflict. And so sometimes I think that can create an environment that people don't feel comfortable in. And so, as we were thinking about this and as it was posted in kind of the channel around safe workplaces, I was thinking more about, like, how does the way that we come off affect different personality types, affect the environment and does it create an unsafe workspace for people?
Speaker 2:we need to go one level up, right, because the word safe space is used a lot in society today. It's often tied to, you know, a political either. One side provides safe space, one side condemns the safe space. There's a lot of conversation about that out there outside of the workplace, right. Like colleges provide safe space, like it's incredibly politicized. So I think it's worthwhile to kind of break down like what that is in the workplace, specifically because I like where you're coming from, from type a personalities, uh, you know kind of go-getters, sharpshooters, you know the guys who like quickly jump into the conversation, and then there's those that are more reserved the extrovert versus the introvert versus the. You know the overconfident weirdo who likes making meetings. What is a safe space?
Speaker 1:I think that's a perfect place to start. I think a safe place from my perspective would be in the years that I've been working, is people feel comfortable to admit they were wrong about something, feel comfortable and failing, they're not afraid to voice their opinion and they feel like they're respected. And obviously I'm not doing the hre stuff of like. Is this a safe environment? Or someone to like physically abuse me? I'm going on like it's almost like mentally safe or like I don't know if corporate safe is the right term, but that's what I kind of think about is like, if people feel comfortable and they feel safe, they're going to be more willing to participate and give their opinion on things and admit when they're wrong and not fail and overall create a really good workspace. What do you think?
Speaker 2:I love that because I was going to say it's a safe for you a space where you feel safe to fail. To say it's a safe for you a space where you feel safe to fail. You started with a space where people feel safe to admit they're wrong, which, bravo, clark. I think you won the episode with that one, because that was like a moment for me. That's huge. Right, like failure is one thing, because then you just you're confident enough to keep pushing forward and try the task. Let's experiment, let's, let's be agile, confident. To say I was wrong means you are putting out an energy of vulnerability for yourself, like it is a truly a space where you can be vulnerable and you know that that vulnerability is going to be met with acceptance and help and you know what you need to improve the situation or to learn something. I love that.
Speaker 1:That's huge vulnerability and, I think, humility on top of that like things like being able to say if you're challenged with something, I I don't know. I truly don't know. I think it's something that people undervalue. It's like if someone's not willing to BS something because they feel like they have to give an answer, otherwise they might look down upon, and they're just saying, frankly, I just don't know, bruce, I don't know what the deal is here, but I'm happy to do some more research and help figure that out. We'll do it together, and I think that alone is such a good indicator to a positive culture.
Speaker 2:I completely agree. How so? Okay? I love this definition of safe space. It's like a place where you can be vulnerable, like let's leave it at that, because I think that is the strongest.
Speaker 1:I think it encompasses it yeah, yeah, truly.
Speaker 2:How do you do that in a corporate setting? Yeah, this is where you get to your question right, like, do you have to silence certain personality types or like bat them down when they come in swinging with their, their ideas and their attitudes and energies? Like, because not everyone is going to feel like they can be vulnerable with certain personality types?
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's a really tough question. You know you've got to create the environment you know we talked about in the last episode. You know leaders create the weather.
Speaker 1:You know and how people feel and I think it is up to the leaders to create the environment that people are going to be working in. And you just set an example. I think that's the way I look at it is I want to be. When I go into meetings or when I do something wrong, or when someone's right, I'm like hey, I know last week we talked two weeks ago I was convinced that this wasn't the case. I did the research, I was wrong and you were right. You had a great suggestion. So next time, you know, I'll listen to you more, we'll do the research together. So that way, you know, I can fully be on board with whatever the plan is. But I think that's such a big part of it, because if the leaders don't do it from the top down and they don't set the example or they don't create that environment, it'll never be a safe place.
Speaker 2:I would I would agree and I would also argue that, yes, leaders are where it has to, like it has to happen at the leadership layer. I think this is also and this might be counter to something I've said in the past, so I have to be careful about putting my foot in my own mouth, but, like, this is one of those times where asking that question in the interview process, like tell me about a time you failed, uh, can be very enlightening for the people you hire and bring in for that culture. Fit Right, like cause that their answer to that question can tell you how they respond to unsafe situations. Yeah, right, like you failed. What happened? What did you do? What was the response by leadership? You know, how did you handle that, based on how they respond, is going to very easily tell you like, well, what did you fail? What are they going to do to you? What's the expectation? Right, like I don't know.
Speaker 1:Just thinking about that, yeah, Are you saying it from the interviewee perspective? Yeah, like, how do you guys handle failure?
Speaker 2:It's a really interesting question, right, cause everyone asks that question and you know it's kind of become an almost an eye roll question because you have to have a canned answer. But you could screen almost for how good of a culture fit that person is based on their response. Yeah, because if it went, you know when? When is the time you were, uh, when you faced failure in your previous job, and they're like, oh well, you know, we uh, we were just slow on the uptake of a new thing and I came in and I was like, okay, guys, this sucks, here's how we're going to change it and make it better. And we're going to change it and make it better and we're going to 10X our output and like it's all about them, right, it's all about how they came in and they fixed the problem on their own and they're the change agent.
Speaker 2:It really wasn't about them failing, it was about other things failing around them. Versus they say, oh, there was this time when I had an idea, I went off on it and we realized I was completely wrong. But it was a learning opportunity to actually get some good data, find out what doesn't work, you know, and then pivot off of this, and the team really helped pull me through and, like you know, the two responses there show two very different culture fits, one of which is people oriented, the other is self-oriented, and you could judge a lot, I think, based on how people answer that question to create safer spaces.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I agree, I was thinking actually the other way around, like if I'm getting interviewed, if I ask that question, how do you guys handle failure? I think that would be really, really interesting, it goes both ways.
Speaker 2:It's a good question to ask right back.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely, you got to do goes both ways. Good question to ask right back yeah, absolutely, you got to do it both ways. It's like you get. You just asked me how I handle failure. I'd love to hear you know you as a company. How do you guys handle failure and put them right back in the hot seat, because that's a hard thing to tell. You know a candidate? It's like, are they going to be open and exposed? Let's be like, yeah, you know, sometimes we do fail. You know we actually spent. We spent multi-million dollar on investments, on, you know, building out this campaign strategy that just completely flopped. And you know what we did. We said we're going to take these learnings and you guys did great getting these learnings and we're going to take those into our next project and, like you know, it's a very positive kind of vibe where it could just be like you might get the answer.
Speaker 2:We don't tolerate failure and in that case you got to really think about it and say do I want to go there because that's a little scary? Hey, I like. I almost feel like this is the solve for finding the safe space as an interviewee, right like you. Throw that question back at them if I expect. I've never. I've never been asked that as someone who gives more interviews than receives them, so I don't think it's a common question under the belt out there, but I would urge every corporate strategist out there who listens to this podcast who's going to go in and interview know that one out and please let us know how it goes.
Speaker 1:I mean to be honest with you. The best candidates ask the hardest questions. Yeah, cause they're Because they're shopping for themselves, they're not just out of desperation looking for a job. So your questions say so much about how experienced you are, about how interested you are in this role, and I think you've got to ask hard questions because then the employer will be like wow, that was a really insightful question. No one's asked me that. I would remember that Now.
Speaker 1:I did five interviews this week. No one asked that question or anything in orders of magnitude close to that difficult of a question. To me, All the questions were softballs and sometimes things that they can just find on our company side. I'm like that literally tells me. I'm like OK, you did no research, you don't really understand our product or what we do. You made it to this round of the interview. What are you doing? You got to be better than that. It puts them down on the list, but if someone literally comes in they ask those tough questions to assess the environment, it puts them on a pedestal above everyone else.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I love this. I feel like this is a very strong Cheddar Movements moment, which we haven't had in a long time. We haven't. I'm glad the cheddar movements have come back.
Speaker 1:We haven't been slicing that cheese. No, I'm happy now we're slicing it.
Speaker 2:Just put that slice on a piece of bread, you got yourself a sandwich, baby.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you're making cheddar, you're making those cheddar movements.
Speaker 2:Okay, so that's how you find a safe space? Yep, let's throw it on the other side. Right? You exist. 99% of the people who listen to this podcast have a job and they're at a place where they don't feel they have a safe space. How do you create one in the workplace?
Speaker 1:Do you want to ask from the manager side first, or do you want to look at the individual contributor?
Speaker 2:side. Let's start with manager, because it's always their fault, and then we can move to individual contributors. Yeah for sure, always the manager's fault.
Speaker 1:Yeah, as I kind of think about my team and I think I've not to gloat I think I've created a safe space in my team where my team is comfortable coming to me when they know they're going to miss a deadline and they're not afraid to say it. And they're not pointing fingers either. They're not like, hey, it's because of this person or this thing, like they're openly saying hey, we're behind, I'm not afraid to say it, I need your help. And what I love about managerially, I think what we've done on our team not just me, but my direct reports and then their direct reports it's we set the tone of.
Speaker 1:When you come with a problem, also come with a recommendation or two on how we're going to get it back on track, you know. So it's OK that you come with a problem, we're going to figure it out together. But come and tell me what we should do. And that kind of creates that autonomy in the workplace too, where it's like we trust you. You know you're the closest to this thing. Tell us how we're going to turn this around.
Speaker 1:I'm not here to solve it for you, it for you. I'm here to help you and encourage you and help you get through that if you can't think through things or look at it from a different angle, so that way you might be like, oh yeah, I didn't think about that, let's do that instead. And so I think creating a space like that, where it's like you can have your employees come to you and tell you that and I even had to pull my employees aside sometimes in meetings and be like, hey, it's okay to say you don't know, Like I could tell you weren't really sure what the answer was there. It's okay, like you can just say you don't know and then go back and get the answer, so that way you can come back more informed. So I think a combination of those two things of like letting your team know if something's not working, you know, bring it to our attention. If you're going to miss a deadline, bring it to our attention and come with end.
Speaker 2:What I would add, as a entry-level manager who's just figuring it out, is openness and honesty go a long, long way. I'm a big believer in open secrets and not hiding things from my team, because if they hear it from someone else, then they know that I knew and it's. It's always better that they hear it from me so like and I will go so far as to say that it's it's important that as managers, you fall on the sword first, right, like you need to be the one because you're responsible for your team and if your team is failing, it's probably a failure of you as well, because you weren't able to correct the situation. It was kind of like when we had danny on and, uh, you know, then I pooped my pants.
Speaker 2:Book great read, go out there and get the book. If you haven't listened to the episode, go listen to it. But he was talking about his one, one team member where he kept trying to like fix the problem when in reality they were in the wrong position entirely. And you know, retrospectively he realized that now that person is in great success. And I think, as managers, it really is up to us to kind of fall on our own sword and be like hey, you know I failed you by putting you in this position in the first place. Right, like it does, come to us and being open, being honest, not hiding things. Uh, that could potentially benefit people on your team from knowing or giving them the feeling that they're trusted. The same way they trust you, you trust them. I think that goes a very, very way, and owning up to your mistakes with them too, is huge.
Speaker 1:Setting the example. Yeah, I think that's great and to your point, I think you know especially newer entry-level folks. If you're in a meeting with them and you're like you take the blame, like you take it on the chin for the team, they're going to really appreciate that. They're like, okay, you're being a shield to us and you're not pointing us out to be like, well, it's his fault, it's Nancy's fault. She should have done this in front of everybody. It's like I'm accepting responsibility for my team for a thing we should have caught and we're going to do better next time. And you kind of set the tone for even the leaders above you to be like I'm not going to let you to say this is my team, I take responsibility for them and our work, and so I love that. I think that creates a really safe space.
Speaker 2:Yeah and you know it's ultimately it. It's more risk for us to do that like. It does put us in a more potentially detrimental situation long term. But I think that's the role, right like that is. The role of the manager is to be the one who can fall on their sword. You you don't see it often, but I think you'd see us do it. I think I'd do it. I'd do it, I'd bleed all over the place. I'd like you will not only fall on the sword, I'd take my guts and wrangle around like a lasso.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it'd be really gross.
Speaker 2:It'd be ugly.
Speaker 1:It'd be some soft stuff.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I'm getting excited about it. Now, listen, I don't want to cut you open.
Speaker 1:I just think I would get a bad, nasty wrench coming out of that. So I want to tell you about a time I failed, yeah, as a type, a personality. Okay, there was, and I'm going to. I'm going to give this example because I think it kind of ties into a way. An individual contributor, or a person who is not a manager, helped create a safe place, and it hit me by surprise. I actually felt bad once I heard.
Speaker 1:So we were in the middle of this project, things weren't exactly going as planned, and so I had to kind of take the reins and be like we need to give direction here on what the solution is and drive this team to do what we need them to do, even if they want to take time, to take longer. It's like you've got a deadline, you've got to get it done by this date. What I heard when we were collaborating was that after I came in, I gave a couple of meetings. I felt like everyone was on the same page. Like we left the room and I say, ok, great, you know, felt like everyone was on the same page. They were kind of quiet this team always was, so I didn't really think twice about it. I was like, ok, yeah, you know, I guess the team's on board feel comfortable giving you feedback and giving you answers because you're so strongly opinionated and so they feel like they just need to be quiet because they don't want to try to battle with you on things and they don't feel like they're comfortable approaching new topics with you. And, by all means, like I wasn't being negative, I was being myself, but I was so outgoing and so like driving to the point that they just didn't feel comfortable in those meetings and so they kind of, you know, shied away from approaching that conflict, even if they felt different.
Speaker 1:And so it was a really harsh learning for me, cause I felt like a little bit attacked at first, like like what do you mean?
Speaker 1:Like I was so shocked, I was like I don't, I don't know what you're talking about.
Speaker 1:And then she got to walk me through everything, told me about her team's perspective, and I was like I truly had no idea.
Speaker 1:And I'm really happy you pulled me aside to tell me and it was a really good feedback point, because it's one of those things that the individuals on that team knew that them and their partners didn't feel comfortable like voicing their opinion against something, because I was so motivated to get the goal that I wanted done and they went to their manager, they shared that feedback and then she approached me and so like it kind of hurts because it's like why didn't they just approach me, like was I negative about it or whatever, but like in retrospect it's you'll always have that Like there will be teams who are not comfortable coming to you and giving direct feedback, especially when they know your goal, your end goal. They don't want to get in front of that train. So the fact that they went to their manager and express that in not a mean way and I'm fine with all these people still talk to them I thought that was such a great way to approach it as someone who knew that other people around them were feeling the same way.
Speaker 2:And I'm going to ask a question and it's going to sound like I'm digging on you. I'm not. If you dig on me again, I'm quitting. I swear it's not a dig. When this situation happened, were you a product manager?
Speaker 1:Yes, so the reason I ask no, no, no, don't you dare, don't you do this.
Speaker 2:This really feels like a product manager-specific thing, because not only has this happened to you, but I've literally seen this happen to other product managers as well, where I'm the one who has to go tell them you are very difficult to give feedback to and then and unlike in your case they get offended like well, why would I be? I don't know what it is about this role, but the personality types it attracts not you, just in general you could say. I think it is like a cult, there's a culture of product managers out there, and I don't think you're actually adding to that, if I had to guess, because I find you to be the most approachable person on planet earth. But I think, in general, people have gotten so used to this kind of behavior from that department and I you know it's in the title, right Product manager, product owner You're the one in charge of everything, right, so there's a little bit of hubris that comes with that.
Speaker 2:But I think that also leads to a little bit of a hardened, I know best type situation and you might actually be going too hard on yourself in this case, where I think this is just stigmatic of that role in general because, like I said, this is not just you, this is them, and it's interesting. I have not met a product manager in my life, that's not true. I have met one outside of you that I was truly comfortable being open and honest with, where I didn't feel like I had to put on kid gloves before telling them something, cause I was worried they were going to be upset by the information I was telling them, as if I had told them their child was ugly.
Speaker 1:Just saying, I mean. I don't think you're entirely wrong, cause I think you know a lot of this role is about knowing your customer, knowing your data, spending months like trying to figure out what's the best path forward. Right, you've done the work. Yeah, you've done all of it. You've got a strong opinion. You've done the work to come with that kind of maybe not emotional, but emotional baggage of whatever you know people are talking about or, if they get in your way, you're just going to try to steamroll forward whatever it takes.
Speaker 2:That's a good point. So I'm I'm not one to say that I am the master at receiving feedback, because we've talked about this in previous episodes how I have blown up at receiving feedback from certain people, and I will also say those were interesting circumstances because those people sucked, yeah. But something I have done in my current role, at my current job, is be very, I would almost say, self-deprecating about the things that I do with people that I know lack confidence if they're junior in their position or if they are a little new to the company. What I'll actually do when getting in conversations with them, where I want their honest feedback, is I'll be like all right, here's what I've done. It's terrible.
Speaker 2:I actually need you to bring your uh experience with campaigns, social media, whatever, and make this good. Can you give me some ideas? And I will listen to what they say and I will actually take their feedback, regardless of whether or not I think it's good or bad, and I will use it. Uh, and I will throw everything I think to the side because I want them to feel like they can come to me in the future and say, bruce, what you just did appeals to nobody. And even if, on this first time, I might be right and they might be wrong, I'm going to give it to them. It's their job, they're the experts.
Speaker 2:I am not, and I've found it works so well that now, anytime I do something that is in any way, shape or form questionable, people will just tell me, and you know there's there's no fear about it, because I'm the one who's saying like, yeah, this is terrible, this is what you get from a technical marketing manager. I need this to sound good from a field sales perspective. Can you help me with that? And allowing them to be the one to drive. I find it creates a very safe space for repeated interactions.
Speaker 2:But you've got to be willing to put yourself on the sword and bleed Right, which I like both things you said.
Speaker 1:From an individual contributor perspective. Like you said, you embrace those hard conversations on behalf of other people, so you kind of go and stick your neck out there to be like I'm going to tell this person what they don't want to hear, but I need to do it because no one else is going to say it, and that's a very noble thing to do. It's a hard thing to do, so it's great that you do that and if you do have the confidence as an individual contributor who's feeling that you should do that, that'll only create a better culture. You know, if you can help address the problem and it will help the person who didn't even realize they were doing it Like in my case it'll help that become better and become and help create that, you know, positive workplace. I think I liked the second thing you did too. It's yeah, it's, it's showing hey, I trust you, I hired you for a reason. That's the thing that always kills me.
Speaker 2:Maybe I didn't even hire them. They just work in the company, right? Like it's an interaction with a human being that I know I'm going to interact with in the future. I want to create a very good first impression with them, Our first interaction together. You're the expert. You might've only been here a week, but you still have the domain expertise. How do we make this better?
Speaker 1:I like that. Yeah, I like the approach. I think I do that a lot with my team too. They'll ask me questions like what do you think? That's literally how I respond, and then they kind of tell me what they think I'm like that's great, like what if you did this too? And so to your point, I always try to make it additive. I think when I ask that question I truly am looking for, I think they can answer it. They're going to give me something good here, and I'll just be able to add on top of it or just say, yeah, it sounds like the right answer, you got it, and I think that builds that trust in that person too. On, I do know the right answer. I don't need to go to my manager for every single thing that I need and I can make these types of decisions. So I think both those things really help the culture.
Speaker 2:I think the one thing to be careful with with additive and like when they tell you what they think as leaders. If we then guide them to the answer they will they will become a crutch right. It's like here's my idea, thanks for your idea. I think we could add this and now the idea is perfect. Versus, you might go with an idea that 75% of the way there, let it go out Like I know it's dangerous and it's go with an idea that's 75% of the way there. Let it go out Like I know it's dangerous and it's scary, but the feedback they will get going through that process can actually be way more important than just giving them the answer and letting them get there on their own or alternatively, maybe they were right and we were wrong and it was good to trust them inherently. Maybe they were right and we were wrong and it was good to trust them inherently.
Speaker 2:I've seen it play both ways, but I I only start to become more of an interjector of ideas Now, when it becomes a pattern of they need help Right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I agree. Yeah, it's that careful balance. I sometimes use the 80% rule. I'm saying if they're 80% there, good enough yeah exactly, completely agree.
Speaker 2:Yes, yeah, that's what I get. It's tough because sometimes you have to be ready for that. They're not even close answer, and then you got to help guide them.
Speaker 1:But I agree with what you're saying.
Speaker 1:It's like as long as they're generally on the right track, even though it might not be up to my 100% standard, or even if I know a leader is going to rip them to shreds because they're not 20% where they would need to be for that conversation, you make sure you're there to support them. Sometimes I'll even go to my boss and be like hey, listen, they're going to present to you and they're really excited about this presentation. I think they're really close. I need you to encourage them. I know it's not going to present to you and they're really excited about this presentation. I think they're really close. I need you to encourage them.
Speaker 1:I know it's not going to be perfect. I'm going to help fill in those gaps. Don't worry, let them explain their plan, their idea, and I'll help get them the rest of the way there. And so I literally have to go kind of prep my boss, because they don't think about that. They have to think about so many other things. So when they go to something it's very to the point, very direct, and if something's not there, they're going to be like go back and figure it out and come back to me later. And so I'll literally preempt those conversations to be like this person's coming. It's important. They need the visibility with you. They want to get your opinions on thing and they're really excited for you know not gonna be perfect, but I need you to encourage it.
Speaker 2:Yep, that's a great way to do it too, is you're? You're encouraging experimentation from the person that probably needs the confidence boost to begin with. You're setting expectations with the stakeholders. I love that.
Speaker 1:I think that's that is the definition of safe space, because both sides are allowed to be vulnerable right, absolutely great, and then afterwards you can follow up with them, be like you did an awesome job, like congratulations. They really received that well and you can kind of just encourage them that they did the right things. And of course you softballed it a little bit. But as long as 80 there, no one's going to be upset about it and as long as you accept?
Speaker 1:that expectation. It's like that's what you have to do as manager for your team to grow. Otherwise, you're always going to be intercepting everything and making it perfect before it goes up, and that's never going to get you to that next level either.
Speaker 2:I think, um, there's a. There's a phrase that's used in journalism and it's used in lots of different places, but it's called punching up versus punching down Right, like you. You see a lot of anytime someone's like criticizing poor people or the lesser fortunate, it's considered punching down right Because, like, oh, you from your privileged class up here is now criticizing people that you don't understand because you haven't walked in their shoes. That's punching down. Punching up is basically hey, I know where I am, I'm looking at you up there and I'm telling you we can do better. That's punching upwards, and I think, as leaders, you want to talk about making safe spaces in both directions. You've got to be able to do that, and if you can't, you need to digest or dissect why.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely, and it's your job to have hard conversations too. You sometimes have to go to your leader and be like hey, the way you approached it was not great and the team's really struggling. Or you need to staff these extra positions, otherwise my team's going to burn out, and if you don't do that.
Speaker 2:You're failing, as the manager Couldn't agree more 100% agree 100% agree. Dude, well done, Well done. Keeping the good topic train rolling and starting a conversation I didn't think I could participate in and to get with one I feel confident about you Do.
Speaker 1:You feel like you got some energy. You feel like you got out of that brain mush.
Speaker 2:You were in before, I feel like this pod was a safe space for me to be myself. So thank you, clark. Accomplished I love it.
Speaker 1:Two fists in the air.
Speaker 2:Two success, and only because I can see you, I have to do it yeah, yeah. Well, we did it once again. Um, it's been a long one, it's been a long one. You know what I don't expect this oh, we do, we do have no, no, you told me.
Speaker 1:If you don't remember this last episode, you said we have a really fun one that I need you to do, yes, and so you saved this for me and I'm not ready. Yes.
Speaker 2:Good, good, get in the what Do you Meme channel. It's a game. We play every podcast where we make one of us describe a meme with our mouth parts, and it's Clark's turn. Clark, I need you to. There's actually technically two in there. We got one on August 12th and we got one on August 16th.
Speaker 1:And there's even more. Oh, no, no, no, hold on, I was looking at the quote. We did that.
Speaker 2:We did that one of the previous app. So yeah, hit me with the first one, clark, yeah.
Speaker 1:All right, I'm going to. I'm going to have you imagine me as a hipster, yeah.
Speaker 2:He has not seen the movie.
Speaker 1:That's what we, that's what we can establish. He has not seen the movie. No, I have no idea what I mean. I know who it is, but I don't, I don't know. I don't know the reference. Maybe I'm just missing it.
Speaker 2:You'll have to tell me one of my I'm not cultured favorite wes anderson films if not my favorite life aquatic great movie continue oh yes, I've not seen this.
Speaker 1:You are absolutely correct. So, yes, I'm a hipster wearing a beanie. I got some cool shades on. Do a little snapping. I'm doing it. You hear this. Ooh, it's picking up. I'm picking it up in my headphones. There it is. That last one was a good one. I think that was the right one. It's good, and what it says is eyes snap in your direction, finger pointing. Two reasons I don't trust people. One I don't know them. Two I know them. I actually would flip these and I actually commented this after. I actually don't trust people because I know them, and that's my number one.
Speaker 2:And then number two is because you don't know them Exactly.
Speaker 1:It's the devil you know versus the devil you don't know.
Speaker 2:I gotcha. You know what I mean. I follow the logic here. That's some real programmer logic. Clark is laying on us here. He's got an ordered list.
Speaker 1:We've got going on.
Speaker 2:Otherwise it's going to just break everything.
Speaker 1:You can't change the order of the array. What do you do? You do a try-catch so that you protect yourself from crashing your program. Come on.
Speaker 2:This is definitely an if-then Good job. Clark, you have to read the second one.
Speaker 1:I love this one so much. I love this one so much because it's so spot on for what we do every single time we start this podcast. Everybody's seen it. You got Winnie the Pooh lounge in his chair. Normal him, he's just hanging out. Then, for whatever reason, he gets a tuxedo. He's got a little bit more of like a eyebrow raise. He gets fancier and fancier and at the end he's got a top hat, a monocle. He's grown a mustache. So it's like advancing from casual all the way up to the most sophisticated thing in the world. And it starts with most casual vibe check, which we do familiar, every single time. Right, just do a casual vibe check, we're checking in A little bit fancier. I want you to put your pinky up and say vibration inquiry, vibration inquiry.
Speaker 2:Piglet, small smacker of honey for the vibration inquiry.
Speaker 1:This is why you had to do this one and not me. And the last one is Fourier analysis, fourier analysis, fourier analysis. I love it, incredible. I think we got to start next episode by saying pinkies up.
Speaker 2:Fourier analysis, fourier analysis, let's bring it on. Fantastic memes to our meme team. Meme team the meme team bringing the heat with their memes. Hey, if you want to play what Do you Meme and submit a meme based on something we've done in a previous episode? All you got to do is join the Discord. I already told you how to do it, but I'm going to tell you one more time, just once more. Tell me you go into your show notes, you click on all the links notes, you click on all the links. No, no, I'm ready. Do it tell me. I'm telling you, I'm telling you, then you can join the discord. Listen, he's telling you right now, go ahead, okay, okay, yeah, so, so, as, anyway, as I'm saying, you know, you click join the discord.
Speaker 1:You ready, you you write this down. Oh yeah, yeah, okay, I got my notepad out. Go, go ahead.
Speaker 2:Okay, okay, I'll start over, Don't worry. Show notes All the links Join the Discord. What do you meme channel? You got all this, yep. Did you record it into your tape deck? I did Roll back the tape, yep, oh no.
Speaker 1:We're not rolling on the tape. It was there, don't worry, it was there.
Speaker 2:How many?
Speaker 1:movements of the thumb are needed if you're on your phone right now. Two you scroll down, you tap it, you tap again and you're there. That's it. Is that three tap? Is that good UX If you count the scroll?
Speaker 2:it's three. Hold on, I'm going to have to roll back the tape. I got to count the tabs.
Speaker 1:We need some usability testing here. All right, roll back tape again. We need a One more time. Okay, okay, we're there, okay, yeah. So you scroll down, you hit the link tree and then from there you hit join the discord and that's it, you're there. And then you can submit your meme in there and be like the cool kids. I missed the part where it was in the show notes yes, that's right completely missed it glad we rolled back the tape don't worry, edit it out later. No one will know we will.
Speaker 2:Actually, we won't because for this episode I am PC-less. That's why we have no intro music. It's going to be just a mess. It's going to be a mess of an app, but sometimes they're a little bit more raw and this is one of them raw apps. So thanks for putting up with our technical difficulties. I should have a new monitor by the time we record our next episode and problems will be solved. Fingers crossed for you. Until then, I actually we might not have an episode for two weeks because of You're right, we have a little gap, unless, clark, you want to record something on Memorial Day and we put it up Tuesday. Oh, we could, we could. All right, we'll talk about that offline yeah.
Speaker 2:We're going to take that offline, but until we get back to that, double click into the deep dive. I'm Bruce.
Speaker 1:And I'm going to circle back on that with you. Okay, we'll offline it, all right, and I'm Clark.
Speaker 2:And we're going to roll back the tape on that because y'all are all on mute. We'll see you next week.
