Ep 148: Sandy Stream ~ Inherent Goodness & The Power of Vulnerability

Sandy's journey from the confines of a legal career to a student of inner peace and strength is not just inspiring—it's a call to action for anyone seeking a life of authenticity and courage. We uncover the essence of inherent goodness that often remains buried under life's adversities. Her acclaimed book, "The Courage Circle," isn't just a literary work; it's a manifesto for those yearning to break free from societal shackles and embrace the gentle power that comes from self-compassion and vulnerability.

Misconceptions cloud our understanding of power and self-worth. The traditional point system of society is scrutinised, and we are invited to consider how much clearer life becomes when we recognise our own inherent goodness. The transition from intellectual contemplation to deeply embodied truths marks a journey of self-trust and discovery, illuminated by Sandy's insights. We explore the myriad practices—from meditation to dance—that can facilitate this intimate evolution, each of us being encouraged to find and follow what resonates uniquely with our inner guide.

As we wrap up, we delve into the concept of Courage Circles and the symbiotic relationship between teaching and learning that blooms within these communities. Challenging the misconception that peace is passive, Sandy shares her future endeavours aimed at spreading courage and peace across various platforms. We leave our listeners with a sense of hope and an invitation to join the movement towards recognising collective inherent goodness, a pursuit that may very well begin with the simple act of pressing play on this transformative conversation!

Where to find Sandy:
thecouragecircle.com
https://www.instagram.com/thecouragecircle/
https://sandystream.substack.com

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:02

Truth and Transcendence brought to you by being Space with Catherine Llewellyn. Truth and Transcendence, episode 148, with special guest Sandy. Stream 148, with special guest Sandy Stream Now, if you haven't come across Sandy, she's an author and activist whose work is built on the belief that everyone deserves and is capable of finding peace and warrior-like strength within themselves. After teaching law for 20 years, raising her two children and facing a life full of adversities and lessons, sandy decided to turn her efforts towards facilitating workshops for both young and experienced adults to encourage them to live in peace and power.

Speaker 1: 1:00

Her wonderful book, the Courage Circle and I'm going to read part of the blurb from that book is about power, but not the kind you're used to seeing on TV or in politics. That's force, not power. It's a book about finding peace inside, but then not just sitting there but getting up and doing what you need to do in the world. It's about feeling confident, not being arrogant, superior or trying to prove anything, just relaxed confidence by just being yourself. It's about coming out of the most difficult emotional situations strong and soft at the same time. I just love that.

Speaker 1: 1:46

We're going to be talking today about inherent goodness, and I'll say a bit more about that in a moment, but I love the notion of inherent goodness. It's actually a core principle of humanistic psychology, which is my background, and I find it profoundly helpful. And I really wanted Sandy to come on because I love her approach, which is thoughtful, incisive and discriminating and also gently and supportively human, which is a lovely combination. So, sandy, thank you so much for coming on the show Very happy to be here with you, catherine.

Speaker 2: 2:28

I just love your tone of voice, so I'm actually super excited to do this today with you. Fantastic, Thank you.

Speaker 1: 2:36

So this idea of inherent goodness.

Speaker 1: 2:40

I'm just going to say a little bit about it as to why I think it's a relevant topic for everybody, because at the moment, all the time in the world actually, I've been here a few decades now and there's always an opportunity to say that a particular person or a group of people is bad or wrong or mistaken, and there's always an opportunity to try to split humanity, or our small corner of humanity, into the good people, the bad people, the nice people, the horrible people, etc.

Speaker 1: 3:18

Etc. And I understand that I have that in me, that capacity to do that in me as well. And it's lazy thinking because ultimately, we're all here, we've all got to somehow make it work, and this notion of inherent goodness actually opens up so many more opportunities for us in terms of relating and collaborating and negotiating and making things happen, and it's also much more optimistic and it's a much more pleasant way to think of life. So I think it's a great one for us. So, sandy, I know you've got a very personal and close relationship with this notion of inherent goodness. Can you remember when you first really connected with that idea, when it first became something that really landed with you and made sense?

Speaker 2: 4:13

Well, I mean, I wrote this book, the Courage Circle, during very difficult personal times During COVID. I was struggling with my relationships, with my life, with myself, with whatever I guess everything and I was just looking for answers. So I was really all over the place, reading, meditating, crying, doing anything and everything, and I think what happened because of all the time I was spending internally is that I started to internally, is that I started to, I would say, almost mathematically, put things together internally of you know why I am doing certain behaviors, why I think a certain way, why I feel like everything became quite clear as I was looking inward and, part of this, looking for truth. So I stopped looking for anything else than what's truth. So I love your name of your podcast also Truth and Transcendence. So my aim was very directed at truth. Ironically, I'm a lawyer too, but nothing to do with that. But I really really was focused on I just want to know the truth about things. I don't care if it's painful, I don't care if it hurts, I don't care if it's not fun to see, but a real strong focus on what's actually true.

Speaker 2: 5:32

And so, during this process of looking at myself internally and trying to understand everything going on, I started having so much compassion for myself and understanding why and how everything had happened. Why and how everything I felt, why everything I did, all the whys got very, very clear and it became very clear that there was just absolutely nothing wrong with me, that I was absolutely perfectly good inside, and whatever I might have done may be a mistake, but I understood why. Whatever I might have said okay, now I know, I did this, I know I learned that, I know but it no longer was something that defined me, because I just felt my own inherent goodness and that, for me, was a huge moment, because now I could look at anything right. So once you feel your inherent goodness, you can actually start to see a lot more. You can start to see, you know what I'm really doing. This behavior. That's not so good idea and that's not great. And okay, maybe I need to think that because it doesn't anymore affect your inside, whereas normally, I think, for many people who have not maybe yet arrived at this self-knowing, it's very hard to see anything because it feels like it's going to diminish us or we're going to lose some kind of points.

Speaker 2: 7:02

So people are operating often on some kind of a point system that I don't even know where it comes from or who invented it or why we follow it. But there's some kind of point system in the world where you get points. If you're tall, you get points. If you do this career, you get points. If you behave this way, you get points here and there. So we're running around trying to accumulate some kind of points to elevate ourselves somehow.

Speaker 2: 7:24

So if I now see, oh, you know, I'm doing this, it's almost like I lost some points here. So it becomes very hard to see anything because it's almost like we're going to lose some kind of value or status or points or whatever you want to call it, whereas if we have come to the other side, I guess, and know our goodness, then you could see anything. It doesn't touch, it doesn't affect this inherent goodness. So for me now, because I was able to do it with myself, so I wouldn't worry about seeing anybody else as good or not good, I don't think all my experience has been to look at yourself first, forget the world completely. But what ended up happening, naturally, is because I was able to see that in myself. I can now see that in others.

Speaker 2: 8:15

So if someone is behaving in a certain way, I could not understand perfectly why and how they're doing it or how it came to be or what happened in their life. I might not know the details of it, but I can understand clearly that something has led to that behavior and that there is likely some very inherent goodness in there, but the behavior is still not okay. So I don't want anyone to think that this inherent goodness discussion is okay, they're good, so it's okay. We're going to kind of let it go. Actually, no, I have very strict boundaries about behaviors and all that, but it's different than being against the person. So you're not really against the person, you're just against behavior, and that distinction is very important, I think, in terms of human respect and understanding.

Speaker 1: 9:07

Beautiful. Yeah, thank you very much, so I completely get listening to you. This is a very grounded experience for you. It's not just a good idea.

Speaker 2: 9:17

No, it's a self-feeling. It's what I feel about myself, not what I think about myself.

Speaker 1: 9:23

Yeah. So something clearly have something clearly happened. You were saying you were doing a lot of inner work, a lot of self-investigation and learning about yourself.

Speaker 1: 9:33

And you came at the very bottom of everything else. You came to the inerrant goodness. Could you? Now that's very interesting. Yeah, now that's very interesting. If I think of that as a journey, that's a very interesting journey. It's a bit like someone says well, I was driving and driving through the mountains and then suddenly there was the ocean. Now if we look at a map, we know where the ocean is and we know where the mountains are. We know we're going to get to the ocean, but we don't necessarily know. If we do a lot of personal work, we don't necessarily know that where we're going to get to is in our goodness. Who knew?

Speaker 2: 10:13

Yeah, who knew? But if it's there, then I guess everybody can or would get there if they were looking for the truth, I think, as opposed to looking for something else, and then the question would be where is the truth, I think, you know, as opposed to looking for something else, and then the question would be where is the truth? So where is it? Like? Okay, I want to look for the truth. Where do I look?

Speaker 2: 10:32

Let's say we have a nice intention I want to look for the truth. Well, the truth is, at least in my experience, in your body and not in your head, and that's a very interesting I mean, we can talk more about that, if you like or not, in terms of how we can get confused about this truth about us by being in the head. So I can talk about that too, if you're interested. Yeah, but the quick summary and I'm sure you're in your world, you're very much attuned to this as well is that the truth is in the body or in the heart space. So spending time there and I do think the truth is there.

Speaker 1: 11:11

So if people will spend time there, they will discover that truth. Yeah, yeah, so it feels to you like an absolute truth, not just the truth for you, correct, yeah, like a universal thing.

Speaker 2: 11:22

Right.

Speaker 1: 11:22

Yeah, so can you remember anything about that kind of last phase when you sort of transitioned from I'm doing all this investigation, self-learning, inner work and then it kind of popped through to the inherent goodness experience? Can you remember what that transition piece felt like for you as you were going through it?

Speaker 2: 11:51

um, I don't know if it. I mean, there was many, many, many, many many experiences. I think that all together might have come to it. So I don't know if it's one, but one, um, very important piece, um, I think is is to learn to feel for yourself. So I don't know how to describe that feeling when you actually it's almost a friend of mine who I think was having a hard time feeling for herself because what stood in the way in that conversation was that you know, if I would say something like, oh my, it, which came from something she had been told, I think, a million times over, and many people are told is don't be a victim, toughen up or whatever, and those kind of sentences I think are kind of misused.

Speaker 2: 12:58

So I'm happy to talk about victim mentality as well, to talk about victim mentality as well, but in this context I think it was serving the opposite purpose, in that we were now not going to look at our I'm not going to look at how hard it was for me, because I'm not a victim, and for me that is not victim mentality, that is actually self compassion, and we have a barrier sometimes to feeling for ourself because of this kind of strict um language that we might have heard. You know, don't feel sorry. So learning to feel um for ourself, um is a, an absolutely um huge step towards uh, I don't know if it's integrating our whole self or being in our heart completely or getting to this inherent goodness, but definitely I think that's a big piece of it. The other piece, like I said, is to spend a lot of time in the heart and also to become mathematical about your experiences, meaning to understand, literally understand why and why, what happened, so that we no longer judge it as if it has to do with us. We can understand.

Speaker 2: 14:12

Oh, you know, I did this because that, I did this because that. So it's not because I'm a bad person, it's not because I'm stupid, it's not because anything else. It's because you know A leads to B and B leads to C and whatever. And it doesn't mean we're not going to take responsibility for these, but not punish ourselves for it or hurt ourselves for it or not be understanding about it.

Speaker 1: 14:35

Yeah, so that's developing a very different relationship with yourself, both in terms of the compassion and the discernment, I suppose, in terms of how you're looking at the reality of what's going on and the behavior and so forth. What sort of work were you doing to help you in this transition? What sort of explorations and modalities, and whatever where you actually employ it to help you with this?

Speaker 2: 15:08

I would say anything and everything I could find, but you know, during COVID times we were actually able to find a lot. I found a wonderful app that had a lot of talks and speakers, whatever it was called Insight Timer. That had a ton of meditations and speakers and all these things. That's one. Books is another, journaling is another, meditation, of course, all kinds of body work, from movement, dance, qigong, like anything and everything, and also, I guess part of it was also using whatever. I don't know if it's from being a lawyer or I'm a lawyer because of it, but there is.

Speaker 2: 15:52

I guess I have some kind of ability to put all kinds of information together. That is a bit complex, and so it was many, many, many pieces of a puzzle. It is not like one thing, like, okay, I'm gonna meditate 10 minutes a day and feel better. No, you gotta learn about so many aspects to have this all work. And so this is why I tried to write um the courage circle with, uh, you know, each piece being just one page or two pages about each topic. So so one could be boundaries, victim mentality.

Speaker 2: 16:27

There's so many and the book is whatever, 200-some pages, so it shows you how many separate topics came together for me to put things together and people can delve deeper in each one if they wanted to, but they were necessary parts of the puzzle for me, so I was just literally looking at anything and everything that I felt I should gravitate to. So all I was doing is listening to my own internal interest levels. This seems right. Okay, let me follow this a bit. Let me follow that a bit. Let me look here, let me look there. And, fortunately for me, things came together, because I now feel myself, I feel well, I feel strong, I feel kind, I feel clear, I feel fluid, I feel all the things that all human beings are able to feel.

Speaker 1: 17:17

Yeah, beautiful. Thank you for sharing that, because it's always when we come across people who found a beautiful place, like the place that you've found, it's very easy to kind of look at that person and think, well, they're different from everybody else. You know they found this place because they're special and I'm not special and therefore I won't do it. So it's very helpful to hear a little bit about the journey to it. And that thing you said about trying whatever, anything and everything, but listening to your own interest levels is so important. I love that. I've met people who said well, what do you think I should explore? What should I try? There's a type of workshop that I run, the Pellewa workshop, and somebody was interested in doing the Pellewa workshop and she contacted the sort of lead teacher in the UK and said which teacher do you recommend I study with for Pellewa? And this person responded and said well, my recommendation is that you work with the one who you resonate with.

Speaker 2: 18:28

Yeah, I'm not going to tell you which one it should be I don't know, yeah, and that applies with everything.

Speaker 2: 18:36

Yeah, I totally agree with you. That's I mean, in my website I actually have a little tab that's called don't follow me, follow you, I love it with you. Yeah, beautiful. And this applies across the board. It's not only you know which osteo should I go see or should I try this, it applies really across the board, even to the point.

Speaker 2: 18:56

Yesterday we were talking about boundaries in the circle because I have a courage circles and the topic yesterday was boundaries and someone's asking me well, so for. So, for example, if somebody is depressed, do you think I should help them? Like, should we be helping them or should we put a boundary? And I said my boundaries are not the same as your boundaries. There's no way I could tell you what boundary you would put. We don't have the same thing at all. So, for example, let's say I've experienced a ton of depression myself and I realize that helping this person now triggers me into going backwards and I think, well, maybe I'll have a boundary of I'm sorry, I can't help with this because I'm going to go down so that could be my boundary and maybe your boundary is something completely like there isn't. You know, it's very, very.

Speaker 2: 19:40

Each one of these things is very personal, because we are each, if we are in our bodies, able to gravitate, almost, I guess, like planets. We gravitate towards what we must do or what's good for us. If we're listening, well, we're like planets, walking around gravitating to different things. So we just really need to listen and trust ourselves, and maybe that's the hardest part to learn to to trust ourselves. Um, because we don't have a lot at least I didn't and the people in the circle, I think, also often say they did not have feedback from others, which is encouraging you to follow you.

Speaker 2: 20:21

Like we don't get that in general in life. We get follow, follow me, come, do what I say, do what I think. Here's the advice do this, you know. So nobody is like really, you think you should. You know, read, oh, okay, you're interested in that book, good luck, you know, interesting, let me know how does it go. You know, oh, you think you should travel there. Nice, instead of really, that country is not good. I would go here, I would go there or I would do this, but you're not.

Speaker 2: 20:48

It's not you yeah so we don't get that feedback a lot. So I think it takes um a lot of courage to uh trust yourself, uh, especially if we're surrounded by uh people who are giving us the opposite, basically, of uh of that message of trust yourself, trust yourself, trust yourself. Yeah it's very, very hard.

Speaker 1: 21:11

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I was actually talking to somebody about this just this morning, about that we're in a culture where we're not necessarily encouraged to think for ourselves or trust ourselves, and he told me this story about the Prussian army. You might have heard this, I don't know. Apparently there was a war 1870 or something, and the Prussians lost the war, and the reason they lost the battle or the war or whatever, was because all of the officers and soldiers wouldn't do what they were told, because they thought it wasn't right and they basically objected or tried to do it a different way, and they actually lost In battle. They lost.

Speaker 1: 22:00

So they said to themselves what we need is soldiers who will just do what they're told. That's what we need is soldiers who will just do what they're told. That's what we need. So we need to develop a way of educating people that will have people learn to just do what they're told and not think for themselves Okay, that's what they got out of that. You mean, that's what they took from it. They didn't take from it. Going to war might not be a good idea, right, okay, yeah, yeah, I see where you're going.

Speaker 2: 22:23

Took from it, they didn't take from it going to war might not be a good idea, right, okay, yeah, yeah, I see where you're going. Okay, I was like which one? What are you thinking? Okay, but I hear you they didn't they thought that was.

Speaker 1: 22:32

They thought it was inevitable because they were being attacked by hordes of screaming barbarians or whatever was going on, and they thought they had to battle them.

Speaker 1: 22:41

So they came up with this different way of educating people which apparently is what our current education system is based on Everyone's sitting in rows, bells, instructions, et cetera, et cetera. So we're in this culture where, as you say, we're not really necessarily encouraged, and some of us, if we're very lucky with our parenting and the schools we go to, and so forth, if we are fortunate enough to get that input. But I think a lot of people are fighting against a lot of conditioning and a lot of cultural norms.

Speaker 2: 23:17

Yeah, yeah, and it's hard, but I guess for me, the information is still there, the body is still speaking. So, no matter what's happened or no matter what someone has been educated, not educated, thinks or not thinks, believes or not believes, ultimately your body is speaking For sure. You can ignore it, so that's possible, but if you become interested in what's truly going on, I think that exists. So we cannot. You know, it's not something that can really be extinguished.

Speaker 1: 23:50

No, exactly, and we can always still learn. I think some people think they can't learn once they go past 15.

Speaker 2: 23:59

Yeah, we can learn and we can also unlearn. We can learn and we can unlearn.

Speaker 1: 24:03

And you say sometimes you know it's there in the body and the body is telling us. I think I know what you mean by that, but I'd love you to say a bit more about that for the listeners and how you experience that. You know, how do you listen to what your body's telling you and how do you make sense of that whole experience?

Speaker 2: 24:24

Um so, um, how did I? So I started thinking about um, you know, where are we first of all, like, where am I If we talk? So it's a. It's a bit of a complex notion. So I'll try to. I'll see what comes out in my words right now, but I guess that the essence of it is to start to think about, like, who am I? It's a pretty deep topic. Who am I? Where am I? What am I? Whatever you like, and one thing I invite the people to do in the circle every time we meet is to let go of their title.

Speaker 2: 24:56

So that's one thing we can let go of. Forget my job title, Even let go of your kids. We kind one thing we can let go of. You know, forget my job title, even let go of your kids. You know, we kind of try to deal with each other. I suggest, you know, let's try to deal with each other from, like our humanity or our heart or our essence.

Speaker 2: 25:09

You know, I kind of throw words like that, whichever one people want, and we can quickly start to get in touch with that part of us that we are not, you know, this title or this whatever, or anything else, that there's something a little bit deeper.

Speaker 2: 25:23

So I guess that would be a start to to at least be curious, like is there something else I am other than, okay, I'm a teacher, I'm a mom, I'm whatever, you know, whatever word you want to say, but is there like a me in there?

Speaker 2: 25:36

So I think that's the first interesting question to start getting in the body and to see you know what is me and who am I really, and and start to uh feel yourself uh, and that means not to demonize your emotions anymore. So that's a huge step to start to actually look and at your emotions as something uh important and instructive and guiding you, as opposed to negative, because we're also raised thinking emotions are like wrong or bad, which obviously I disagree with. So you know, if I feel sad, we, you know, we try to see why am I sad, to get to know myself better. Okay, I think I need some friends or I think I'm alone, you know. So that's part of getting to know ourself and deeper, through our emotions, and that's in the body, right, that's not in the head yeah so I think that's important, plus doing anything that's somatic, dance, whatever, all the yoga, everything's everything in the body.

Speaker 2: 26:29

So that can that could be number two that super helps. And then, uh, at least what I've seen in the groups, one thing that can super help is to not stop thoughts, necessarily more like going in the body instead of stopping the thoughts. But there are some thoughts that are just completely 24-7 for a lot of people, that I think we could at least I don't know if it's extinguish or question so that they're not so present. Then we can get a bit more in our body when we have and one of them is exactly what we were talking about right at the beginning, which is this inherent goodness. So the way I'd like if it's okay, if you have time for me to go further on this, please. So one way I like to what I put it in the book, in the illustrator she did a beautiful job drawing it is that you imagine your head is like a calculator, literally like the calculator with the numbers right and the body is where the truth is. So the head is doing calculating 24 7 and the body is where the truth is, and we're often spending time calculating, and the way I tried to now describe it. Actually I was talking to someone about it. So let's go even further and let's talk about chat GPT and let's call the head the chat GPT. Actually it's a tool, you know, we can use it as a tool and our body is the truth or the me, the programmer, the essence it's not in your head. But let's say, your chat GPT has been programmed and one of the questions that has been inserted into this program, one of the most first prompts if you want to call it the chat GPT prompt is how can I improve myself or what's wrong with me, or how can I do to fix myself? So let's say that's been a prompt to fix myself. So let's say that's been a prompt. You now have maybe your whole life, 24-7, doing a million zillion things to fix yourself or to improve yourself or whatever else, and that is what is completely taking over the life.

Speaker 2: 28:34

So the question I would ask people to look at is I would ask people to look at is what if nothing is wrong with you at all? What if the prompt is incorrect and has been put there because we're treating each other all the time that you're wrong? What's wrong with you? What's wrong with you? And people have often talked in the circle how they actually heard that sentence what's wrong with you, what's wrong with you? Literally, it's been implanted into this prompt, and so you spend your whole life questioning just that. What if nothing's wrong with me? What if I just went through things? Or something like that?

Speaker 2: 29:12

For those that I've interacted with in the circle, and as they interact with each other, we start to question is that really true?

Speaker 2: 29:20

Is anything really wrong with me?

Speaker 2: 29:22

Maybe nothing's wrong with me, maybe I've been through hell and I'm just dealing with that now, or, you know, maybe I have traumas I need to heal, or maybe whatever, instead of something is wrong with me, and that allows us maybe to also help to kind of question a lot of those thoughts that might be completely taking over our being, and again drop back in the body, spend time in the heart, look for the truth and all the other things.

Speaker 2: 29:52

So it's. I don't know what path other people will take towards this, but I do know that this kind of stuff can be contagious when we look at each other without this critical what's wrong with you concept that people walk around with. But I only think it can happen if you've done it for yourselves, like I doubt we can do that to or for another if we have not first been able to recognize that in ourself, and so I guess that means we need to always start with us, as you must agree, I'm sure I completely do, and I've seen people try to do it without doing it themselves first, and it's not pretty and what does it look like?

Speaker 1: 30:36

What do you mean? So let's say, somebody hasn't done the inner work that you're talking about, and then they're seeking to help somebody else to do inner work. What happens is that the challenges that the person they're working with encounters actually trigger the unworked, actually trigger the unworked areas in the practitioner and cause the practitioner to then start to disempower the client in some way.

Speaker 2: 31:14

Because they feel protective or defensive, you mean.

Speaker 1: 31:18

Because they go on automatic.

Speaker 1: 31:20

I think one of the things that happens with what you're talking about, the awareness is we become less automatic, we become more conscious of what we're doing, whereas when we haven't done the work, we can react automatically like a program, like you were saying chat, dbt and when that's happening we may not notice. That's what's happening. Yeah, that will tend to then divorce us from authentic connection with other people and it will short circuit compassion as well, because we feel disempowered, because the experience is forcing us to meet the place where we haven't done the work.

Speaker 1: 31:59

Yeah, yeah, the place where we haven't done the work yeah, yeah, it creates all sorts of problems and I myself, as a practitioner, uh have had experiences where I'm working with people and I notice I've got something going on with me, some sort of reaction coming up. Yeah and um, I know that mine is not.

Speaker 2: 32:19

Yes.

Speaker 1: 32:20

Yes, Beautiful Mine right, yeah. It's not appropriate for me to work on it there and then, when I'm working with the client, what I need to do is rededicate myself to the wellbeing of the client and what we're doing, and subsequently afterwards. Then I used to have an incredible practitioner supervisor who I would then have a session with. We would unpack what it? Was coming up in me. Yeah, yeah. So you can't necessarily wait, can you, until you've completely done your own work before you start?

Speaker 2: 32:49

no, because you don't really know right. So even just yesterday between you know, just to tell you honestly, there was an interaction that I was having and I felt myself getting all kind of you know whatever word you want to call it rilediled up or who knows what. And I guess what you're talking about, which I try to do now as well, I mean that's the best thing we can do. Before I didn't do that, that's for sure, but I realize now the best thing to do is huh, I got riled up. I wonder why. Let me go check this one out. Cool, like, let me figure out. You know what's going on. Do I need to set a boundary? What happened Like? Am I bothered? Like, but it's on me.

Speaker 2: 33:26

So, whereas before, as soon as we get bothered, upset whatever triggered, you're automatically looking to, you know, blame the other person or tell someone what to do or whatever else. And I think, someone who has understood the power that they have in life and knows that the most effective and powerful and I mean literally powerful way to address all things is to look for what you are going to do in this situation, because you have this ability. You just might need to navigate a little bit, but it's there. So I'm with you. If I get you know whatever word you want to use, trigger this that roughed up anything. Okay, time to look and see what's going on and I wonder what I'm going to do about this one. I don't know yet. Like, let me go look at it, but it's mine. It's mine to look at mine, to figure out, mine to act from, because it's my life and my responsibility.

Speaker 1: 34:25

Yeah, yeah, and I also get from what you were saying about inherent goodness is that if we're really connected with that and very grounded in it, then we're not going to beat ourselves up whilst we're doing our learning.

Speaker 2: 34:40

Oh no, at the opposite, you're very open. You're like hell. I wonder what it is. It could be anything.

Speaker 1: 34:44

I want to know yeah, great, I don't want to know what it is yeah, let me figure this one out like it's not going to.

Speaker 2: 34:51

I'm not a bad person if I didn't know this yeah I'm not a bad person because I didn't figure this out when I'm 20. I'm just, it's fine, I'm figuring it out now. You like we don't go there because it's not something that is true. So it's not because you're trying. It's like if you actually found that to be true in your own heart. And so I do recommend everybody spend some time doing just look up heart chakra, heart meditation, heart opening, heart, heart math institute, like everything. Heart, where you literally spend time, um, in the heart, like paying attention to the heart space, and I I think naturally we will. At least it might help, you know, to lead, to lead the way or something absolutely.

Speaker 1: 35:38

Yeah, we can't do any harm, can it?

Speaker 2: 35:40

no, can't do harm.

Speaker 1: 35:42

To be your own heart of the week, yeah exactly monday, so yeah so I'm just curious, um the you were a lawyer, you're still a lawyer, and you did all this personal work over a certain period of time and at some point you started doing these amazing circles. So over what sort of period of time were you doing this? Uh, kind of particularly significant personal learning and growing before you reached that point of really connecting with inherent goodness? Was that like a couple of weeks was? Was it a couple of years? Was it a decade or two?

Speaker 2: 36:25

I would say, you know, I had some important levels of self-inquiry going on when I was 30, where there was some pretty, you know, you know serious things going on family, all kinds of things going on.

Speaker 2: 36:46

So I learned a lot about trauma actually in that five, seven years. So I, if I think you know, I mean I was always interested but in terms of like, really deeply having to deal with things, I would say since I'm 30, it's been constant and now only now, so I'm 53. So I would say, like, from whatever this past two, three years do, I have a clear sense of many things coming together for me. So I don't want to I don't know which point, what you know, it's a whole process obviously, but I would say now I feel a sense of clarity and about, you know, many, many topics, not just about the inherent goodness, but things that have come together so that I can feel like I am able to live, feeling right, right, meaning not right wrong, but feeling I'm living the right way for what I have to do in my life to be in peace, no matter what's going on. So there's no more the condition of what's going on as I just navigate whatever happened.

Speaker 1: 37:58

Well, I kind of know how to move, I guess beautiful I think that's very helpful as well, because sometimes people can think right. I need to get this sorted out by the end of the weekend right, yeah, well, great if that's, yeah, if that's possible for some people.

Speaker 2: 38:19

Sometimes they have big, immediate things that occur and clarity For me. Often, in Buddhism or others, they talk about the flowers that are opening slowly. That would resemble a little bit more my experience anyways. Exactly.

Speaker 1: 38:39

And the flowers have thousands and thousands of petals, don't they? In all the meditations you know, there's a flower, it's got 5,000 petals.

Speaker 2: 38:48

Yeah we're just opening up, slowly, keep opening up and opening up and opening up.

Speaker 1: 38:53

Yeah, because it's something I pick up listening to you is this sense that there are many, many, many avenues and facets that you've explored and that there's about like an integration where it came together, and I just want to highlight that impression that I get just to sort of value both of those states, the state of exploring lots and lots of different things and it's all lots of different things, and then also that state of integration when it lands and just to really emphasize how they're both equally as valuable and important as each other no-transcript of what am I doing, which is much harder.

Speaker 2: 40:19

How am I? I participating in this? What am I? What can I do, you know, to really own responsibility for our life, without blaming ourselves, without criticizing ourselves, just to, you know, take over, basically take over, be in charge of yourself. That's a huge one and that's why I love, love, love anybody that even walks into either the circle that I do or just starts anything like start therapy or start whatever. For me, these are big acts of power, because they have literally flipped the switch from everybody's doing anything to me to I'm taking the step, it's mine. So for me, those are the hugest acts of courage and power, even though they're often demeaned or looked down upon by others. For me, it's actually the complete opposite, like I perceive that as the opposite. I mean they're acts of power.

Speaker 1: 41:14

Yeah, yeah, it's the showing up for the learning experience, or the showing up is the step, yeah, it's accountability. Once you've done that, the rest is an adventure. Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 2: 41:28

Whereas some people who have never yet started right. You can see a lot of that where we spend a lot of time just blaming everyone, or that's happening, or I'm this way because of that or whatever, and I'm not criticizing that. It's hard to switch to the other one, so there's no criticism in that. But I'm just saying that those that start, just the start is you know, you're on, you're, you're facing a different direction. Basically, you've turned the direction and really the direction is what matters. It's not arriving, it's the direction You're facing, the direction towards. So for me, that's what I try to. What gives me peace as well, today, every day, is am I pointing in the right direction? It's not about where I'm going, it's am I turning in the right direction? So, yeah, lovely, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1: 42:19

So would you like to share a bit about these wonderful circles you're doing and how that started and how it is. Oh sure I love them topics.

Speaker 2: 42:41

Maybe I'll try to share. I was terrified to do it, but I thought, you know, these are topics that are so important. How come, like you know, I have all these university degrees and this and that, and how did I not know these things? That's crazy. So I thought I wonder if I could, you know, share. And maybe in my mind I was thinking, teach right, teach these topics to others, because I do facilitate legal workshops so in my contract world. So I thought, okay, I'll facilitate, kind of, maybe I could try that.

Speaker 2: 43:06

I was terrified to try, but I knew that the owner of our local yoga studio very beautiful studio in Montreal and I proposed the idea to her and she's like, yeah, sounds great, you know, go for it. And so I set it up and we sent her mailing, whatever. Two people showed up one week, then like three, then maybe two, then zero then and I'm like, oh, what do I? You know, how do I go with this? I'm not sure, but I really feel strong. But so finally I created what's called a meetup and there's an app where you create meetups and or, you know, you know, for people to meet.

Speaker 1: 43:41

Yeah, we have that.

Speaker 2: 43:42

You have? Yeah, they're everywhere. So I created a meetup, which was very terrifying for me as well.

Speaker 2: 43:47

And low. You know, slowly but surely people started joining and now it's been a year that I facilitate twice a week. The groups are usually around I would say 15 to 20 people each time, and they are I. It's so wonderful. It's so wonderful what happens in this circle. First of all, we are all different, so meaning we are all like. You know, this race, this age, this gender, this whatever, like. There's just no specific type which is beautiful. Everybody is respectful. There's honesty. So people are actually open, honest, sharing, respectful, kind. So for me it's peace on earth.

Speaker 2: 44:33

Actually the circle is exactly what is beautiful and possible in our world. Yes, all the different ages and races and genders, and blah, blah, blah, blah blah all sitting together respectfully, kindly, openly, honestly, not jumping down each other's throats or telling each other how to live or what to do with each other's lives. Each one is sitting there as their own human being, responsible for themselves, and just sharing ideas for each person to take or leave as they wish, or something like that. So I absolutely love doing them and, of course, even though I thought I'm going to be teaching, what truly happens is that I'm learning. So I attend, yes, I facilitate, I give my points of view, I talk like the way we are talking here, but then everybody takes turns and speaks their thing, their way, their ideas, their, whatever it is, and everybody is learning from each other, including me, learning from everybody.

Speaker 2: 45:27

So it's a beautiful environment. That's all I have to say, and it's the kind of environment that people can really, really grow in, because it's healthy, and this is where we grow in healthy spaces. Just, I guess, like you know, plants grow in healthy earth or whatever. I find this kind of circling and healthy space is a place that allows people to have a look at themselves and see what they're doing in a healthy way and make choices and everything else. So I'm loving doing it and it gives me you know, it gives me peace knowing that it's possible actually, because otherwise, if I just look at what I see in the news, you'd think this is not possible. But it is. It is possible right.

Speaker 2: 46:14

Well, well done oh, thank you, I was just looking for my piece. I don't think I was trying to do anything else my own piece.

Speaker 1: 46:24

yeah, well, you know who cares. You mean great, I don't mean to be. You know. It sounds like that's a beautiful gift to be giving to your community and that people can come and join in with that, and presumably people can come as often as they like, or one, yeah, whatever.

Speaker 2: 46:42

Yeah, they drop in, they leave two months, they come back, they do whatever they want. Yeah.

Speaker 1: 46:47

Wonderful. I think we could do with more of those.

Speaker 2: 46:50

Yes, please do. And if anyone listening to this would like to start one themselves, I wished and envisioned in my mind who knows if it comes to be true but I envisioned when I was writing the Courage Circle that it's actually written in a way that others could form circles themselves. So if somebody out there feels like doing it, please email me. I'll be happy to tell you the few things that I do to get them started. And please go ahead and start your own courage circle and run it with people in your community. That would be great.

Speaker 1: 47:25

Yeah, why is it called a courage circle?

Speaker 2: 47:30

Well, the name to me for the book, called the Courage Circle, actually came from my own experience, which is when I was in the midst of this utter confusion, lost state that I was in. I don't know how or why exactly, but I painted a circle in my living room, but close to the ground, basically A circle there, and this was my place that I would sit all the time doing this, meditation, writing, crying, whatever else I was doing. That was like my whatever, and so I called it the courage circle because I realized that ultimately we need to create first this circle around ourself. You know, really look internally what's going on. And then, if you read the book, there's actually a few chapters and it takes you from. There's like a bit of an image of how we grow in the circle.

Speaker 2: 48:24

So first chapter is about just creating this circle. Then the next chapter you kind of sit in the circle. So I have a few chapters about that. And the third one when you start to see your feelings, your things, the picture in the circle might look a little bit crazy or upset, you know, all over the place, which I think is a normal part of the process, and then, once that whole chapter is processed, many things in there. The next step I put it as now you're kind of just a bit sitting in the circle, but now a're going to stand up, stand up for yourself, stand up in the world or stand up whatever. So now we're standing up, kind of from this circle and eventually, of course, we walk into the world and do what we need to do with that courage. And so that's kind of the imagery that I don't know where it came from, but it came to me to do it this way.

Speaker 1: 49:29

And so, yeah, it's beautiful. It is a wonderful book.

Speaker 2: 49:32

Oh, I have my copy of it on my shelf.

Speaker 1: 49:36

It's a beautiful book and just that lovely image on the front of the person reaching up and drawing a circle is just so touching, really touching, so beautiful I think. I think the work you're doing is amazing, really amazing. I love your invitation to listeners to create their own circle. Create your own courage circle and just let that spread. I think there's a lot more group work going on at the moment, of all different sorts. I personally think that humanity needs group work at the moment.

Speaker 1: 50:10

I think during the years of the virus, as I call it, um, there was a lot of fracturing of community and connection and relationship, and we we're trying to address that balance. I think a lot of us, and I think it's very, very important, um, we'll swing around, you know, and you did a lot of us, and I think it's very, very important. We'll swing around, you know, and you did a lot of work, solo work, which it sounds like you did an awful lot of it on your own, you know, drawing on different resources. Some people do that particular path with a mentor or with a group or however people do it.

Speaker 2: 50:46

Yeah, you know, and I think it's Well, I was reaching out to people as well, like anybody or anything. So, you know, I think it's. Yeah, I think you know we just have to go towards whatever feels right for us, like you were saying earlier, right, so we might gravitate. You know, I feel like talking to this person and just go. If that's what feels, just do it. I feel like trying Catherine's ecstatic dance. Well, try it. Catherine and I are joking those are listening that I'm going to come to England one day and do her.

Speaker 1: 51:20

Dancing with her, absolutely. You'll be very, very welcome and you'll meet a lot of other strange people over here.

Speaker 2: 51:25

Oh, lovely, my favorite.

Speaker 1: 51:30

So at this point, I like to kind of think about leaders in the world because, as we know, there's an awful lot going on. There are challenges, and everyone's got their own point of view about what is actually occurring in the world, what isn't occurring, what should be occurring, what we should be doing about it. Everyone's got their own point of view and in amongst all of that, there are a lot of people in leadership positions of different sorts and political leaders, community leaders, spiritual leaders, business leaders and also leaders, community leaders, spiritual leaders, business leaders and also, I think, a growing number of people who are really committed to being better leaders in their own lives, just being leaders in their own lives and I like to think most of these people want to be part of a solution and helping things be good, and some of them are listening to us right now. So the invitation to you is is there something you'd like to say to these people in relation to some of what we've been talking about today?

Speaker 2: 52:40

um, well, and my latest uh motivation is to start to speak out a little bit more in the world, considering what I see as well, and it's starting with this idea of peace. So you know, a lot of times we think there's going to be peace in our world if there is going to be the end of war number one between this country and that country, or maybe we'll have peace in our world if there's a peace treaty signed with this country and that country, but actually we all know that is not true. We will not have peace in our world if there's a peace treaty signed with this country and that country, but actually we all know that is not true. We will not have peace in our world even if there's an end to this war number one or war number two or peace treaty here. But that is not, at least in my view and the view of many, the way we arrive at peace. So the way to arrive at peace, as many have said and I agree is for each person to find peace in themselves, that it would be the method or the system to go about it.

Speaker 2: 53:32

So if you are interested in peace, then you must invest in peace, which means to invest in yourself and if there are things to heal, things to feel, things to learn, whatever it is to turn to that direction and find your own peace and see if you can live in peace with yourself.

Speaker 2: 53:54

And, in my view, that's what will be contagious on others. And one of the misunderstandings, I think, about peace is to think that living in peace means that you're just going to sit and do nothing. That is not, to me, what living in peace is. Living in peace can be very active. It's really a sense, an internal sense of ourselves, of how we feel, about how we are living or what we're doing or how we are, and that's whether we live in peace or not. And I think most people are not clearly living in peace themselves, and so I would invite everybody to have a look today, this exact second, and ask yourself am I in peace and if not, what can you do to find your own peace? That's, I think, the best thing that everybody could do for our world.

Speaker 1: 54:44

Thank you. Beautiful, well, I think I could just meditate on that for the rest of the week.

Speaker 2: 54:50

Just very beautiful we need to invest, invest, invest in peace, in your peace, and remove this idea that taking care of yourself or doing this kind of work is selfish or useless. No, it is like the best thing that somebody could do. Really. It's the best thing you can do for this world.

Speaker 1: 55:14

Brilliant, great. So we'll just do that, then, all of us.

Speaker 2: 55:18

Okay, great, wonderful High five Done.

Speaker 1: 55:23

So in a moment I'm going to start moving towards winding up. So first I'm going to ask you if people want to find you, where would you like them to go?

Speaker 2: 55:34

Well, my website is the Courage Circle, but I am making my own next courageous moves, because it's not that I don't experience fear I definitely do, but I also experience courage. So my next greatest move is to become even more outspoken about what I see and hear, to see if that could be helpful to others. And so I started a YouTube channel. I'm starting Instagram and Substack under the name Sandy Stream or the Courage Circle, so I'll be putting more and more information there, mustering my own courage and getting into the world even more than I am. Beautiful, very exciting.

Speaker 1: 56:21

Thank you for doing that, because I think with you, with what you're doing, and what a lot of other people are doing in their intention to bring about peace, is just so fantastic. It's such a gift to the world. I'm very, very grateful for it. So thank you.

Speaker 2: 56:40

Thanks, Catherine. Well, I'm sure I didn't get to interview you. I would love to do this in reverse and see what you're doing and how you're going about your life.

Speaker 1: 56:50

But I have a feeling, yeah, really, because I have a feeling that you are also Give me a call, oh nice.

Speaker 2: 56:57

But I do have a feeling that you are doing lovely things. I just don't know all about them, but my feeling is that you are also contributing to our peace in our world as well, in your beautiful way. But I don't know all the details, but it is my feeling.

Speaker 1: 57:13

Thank you very much. Well, I did actually look at these statistics the other day of where in the world people are listening to this podcast. And there are people listening to it in Russia, Ukraine oh my goodness vietnam. Wow, all the places so there are people over there listening to these conversations and that can't do any harm.

Speaker 2: 57:39

No, I've doubt now.

Speaker 1: 57:42

We've talked about a lot today and you've given that beautiful advice and guidance to leaders that I invited you to give you. Is there something, anything else that you would like to say which, if you don't say it in an hour's time, you're going to kick yourself?

Speaker 2: 58:00

say it. Well, I'll be honest, I don't kick myself ever, okay, but I mean, as a truth, like I really don't, you know, do that to myself at all. But if you were you but I hear what you're saying, I know I'm just sharing that I don't do that, but is there something that I'd like to share more? No, I mean, I'm just, I'm really hopeful for our world to realize what is possible. So I'm really focused on what's possible as opposed to what's actually currently happening. It's not a denial of what's happening. I see what is happening.

Speaker 2: 58:41

It's very painful to watch our world, our world, but I think this, you know, the human ability to focus on what is possible is where we could make choices aligned with that possibility. And so that's kind of where I'm at right now, just because I witness what is possible every single week, several times a week, I witness it. I see what is possible. I know it's small, I know it's only 10, 15 people or whatever we are every single week, but for me it's huge because it's something that's possible. So if it's possible here, it's possible there. It's just like that. Was it a three minute mile or four minute mile? I don't remember, I'm not a runner but you know, once certain barriers are broken, then others.

Speaker 2: 59:29

suddenly it becomes a possibility for many. So I guess I'm just there to say that this is possible in our human race, and so that's all.

Speaker 1: 59:43

And the last question I ask all my guests, which is again we've talked about a lot today. Has there been for you a favorite?

Speaker 2: 59:54

part of our conversation today. Well, what I really like is just talking to you. That's my favorite part. I mean, people are on audio but we are on video together, so you have very glimmery eyes. You have very sparkly eyes, so that's really nice to talk to.

Speaker 1: 1:00:11

Beautiful. Thank you so much. It's a delight to talk with you as well, and thank you so much for sharing all of this today. It's beautiful and wonderful material and insights and experience that you're sharing. I wish you many, many years of your wonderful circles and many more circles springing up all over the world Wonderful.

Speaker 2: 1:00:36

Amen to that. Let's see what happens that would be wonderful.

Speaker 1: 1:00:39

May we all welcome and embrace our inherent goodness and recognize that in others.

Speaker 2: 1:00:46

Yeah, that would be beautiful. Thank you so much for doing this Catherine Really appreciate it and for having me.

Speaker 1: 1:00:52

My absolute pleasure, thank you. Thank you for listening to Truth and Transcendence and thank you for supporting the show by rating, reviewing, subscribing, buying me a coffee and telling a friend, buying me a coffee and telling a friend. If you'd like to know more about my work, you can find out about mentoring, workshops and energy treatments on beingspaceworld. Have a wonderful week and I'll see you next time.