Ep 156: Neil Fillbrook ~ Fear, Courage & Resilience

What if fear could be your greatest ally rather than your biggest obstacle? Join us in this eye-opening episode of "Truth and Transcendence" as we welcome Neil Fillbrook, Group CEO of BB Merchant Services, who shares his intense experiences from the high-pressure world of banking. Neil recounts the nerve-wracking moments of presenting retail bank sales results to senior executives, likening the experience to a modern-day coliseum. Through Neil's vivid storytelling, we explore how confronting fear head-on in professional settings can be a transformative experience, turning anxiety into resilience.

Explore practical strategies for managing fear in high-stress environments, both psychologically and physically. Discover the concept of "shaking yourself down" and building mental fortitude. Drawing parallels between corporate challenges and the spectacle of a baseball game, illustrates how overcoming these hurdles fosters personal growth and resilience while recognising the dual nature of fear as both a paralysing force and a catalyst for growth.

Leadership takes centre stage as we discuss its critical role in addressing societal and environmental issues. We delve into impactful decision-making and the importance of proper resource management, with insights from Neil's career and experiences within the NHS. From tackling pollution through stringent regulations to addressing local road maintenance, we emphasise the necessity of courageous leadership. Reflecting on the lessons learned during the COVID-19 pandemic, highlighting how taking calculated risks and adapting to new strategies can lead to significant progress. Tune in for a compelling conversation on overcoming fear and taking decisive action in both personal and professional realms.

Where to find Neil:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/neilfillbrook/

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:02

Truth and Transcendence, brought to you by being Space with Catherine Llewellyn. Truth and Transcendence, episode 156, with special guest Neil Philbrook. Now, if you haven't come across Neil, he's the group CEO of BB Merchant Services, which is formerly known as Bank Brokers Group. He's a former senior international banker for one of the world's largest banking organizations, with postings across Europe and Asia. He's an entrepreneur, an investor, a fellow of the Chartered Insurance Institute and an all-round nice guy and family man. So I actually invited Neil, who I've known sort of peripherally for many years, and we've got some who I've known sort of peripherally for many years, and we've got some close friends in common.

Speaker 1: 1:11

Neil has actually managed to craft a life where the professional and the personal are interwoven beautifully, or they seem to be looking in from outside, and to me this is always a delight to see, and I think Neil's someone we could all learn from, and I think Neil's someone we could all learn from. When I asked him how he actually does this, he said by overcoming fear. So overcoming fear is our theme for today and I actually think overcoming fear is a really useful theme for any of us at any time, but particularly at the moment when things are so volatile and unpredictable. There are so many things going on that we can very easily be upset about or frightened about or confused about that overcoming fear and I don't mean denying fear or suppressing fear, I mean overcoming it, transcending it, if you like, I think is relevant. So without further ado, neil, I'm just delighted you were able to come on the show. Thank you so much for joining me good morning, catherine.

Speaker 1: 2:09

Thank you very much for inviting me and it's lovely for someone to say good morning to me when it is the morning here and it's the morning for you. I have so many people who say um good morning, catherine. It's five o'clock in the afternoon over here. With this um global interactions that we all have now. I assume you have global interactions in your work as well.

Speaker 2: 2:30

Definitely, yeah, absolutely. Just back from the States and still trying to get used to the different time zones, and even within the States there's multiple time zones, so it takes a few days just to remember which time zone you're in.

Speaker 1: 2:40

Well, exactly, and there are some states that have more than one time zone in the same state, aren't they incredible? It's even more confusing, and don't get me started about australia. So, um, neil, overcoming fear. I know this is something that's been present for you your life, so would you like to share with us your memory of the first time that you really noticed that overcoming fear was important to you?

Speaker 2: 3:07

That is a great question and there's some on the personal side and there's some on the work side and I kind of I don't know where to begin with this, but I guess probably one of the big career ones. Let's start with the career, first of all. I had a normal sort of corporate career with one of the largest banks in the world and, yeah, lots of different roles with that organization. But the one that created fear that I had to overcome was when I was responsible for the sales of the retail bank, and this is a large organization. There were 23,000 plus people selling various products. There were 23,000 plus people selling various products and every Monday at 2 o'clock, catherine, 2 o'clock on the dot, I would be hauled into the boardroom to give an update on the entire bank, retail bank's results for the prior week. And you think, well, that doesn't sound too bad, neil, but let me just explain it. Me give you some context.

Speaker 2: 4:07

Okay, this forum, um was the main sort of update of the week. It had all the executives, all the executives, not the non-execs but the execs and then all their sort of teams and then all the sort of underlings and the whole thing was videoed. Um, the pack of information was all color-coded so it was really easy to zoom in on any poor performance of any channel, any part of the country, any product. Um, it was just, it was all sort of. It was called the sales and trading forum and it was an epic forum. It got to be, uh, like, I guess, the equivalent of the gladiators of old, in that it was a coliseum shaped room and you would have multiple layers of people all coming for the sport of watching myself and the others having to sort of account for the you know, the company's before the bank's performance in the prior week. So it was hugely intimidating.

Speaker 2: 5:02

And at the very beginning, catherine, I think you sort of started to get to know me a little bit and I'm quite sort of relaxed and I like to sort of, you know, have fun with everything in life. But this was a serious forum, so my banter in the early days was, you know, almost knocked out of me. So the Sunday night, feeling, you know, sort of going to bed on a Sunday night realizing I was going to have to do my you know my Monday morning five-hour commute, two and a half hours each way to go up to this forum to read very early in the morning. The data to try and understand, interpret the data. And the data didn't just compare to the previous week, it compared to the same week in the previous month, the same week in the previous year and, like I said, everything was color-coded.

Speaker 2: 5:51

so if you imagine, you know, sometimes I wake up with the horror of a sheet in covered entirely in red, knowing that on camera I was then going to have to explain those results, you know, um to some pretty intricate, you know, targeted questions to a senior audience, and that was. I did that for four years. It was death by a thousand cuts, catherine.

Speaker 1: 6:11

Oh, honestly, and when were you actually given the pack of data? When did you have the pack of data in your possession?

Speaker 2: 6:17

It would usually arrive as I was on the train. I'd usually get a train at 5.50 in the morning and you know, somewhere on that commute, commute it would arrive. And if I had enough shoulder space to to get on my blackberry, as it was then, to try and sort of open it up and have a quick look, and literally, if it was a sea of red, you know my heart would sink. And even if it was a, you know, a sea of positive news, not not red, so looking black, um, you know, then you have to kind of prepare yourself. That is this week, you know, was it? Because, I don't know, the same week last year was only a four-day week and this is a five-day week because, even everything looking good, if somebody in the audience could find fault or flaw, you can guarantee they'd be looking to to raise it. It just seemed to be a sport um yeah, so that was it.

Speaker 2: 7:03

So I'd learn early in the morning get in. My whole team would be sort of rallying around to try and arm me. It's like the talking points. If you were the white house spokesman, I used to think at times. You know, you're having to sort of prepare for every possible scenario, which of course you can't, and basically you had to overcome your fear. Um, because in that forum if you went in there like a frightened mouse then you would just be chopped up and spat out. So I had to project bravado, even on some of the weeks that were horrific, and often muddle through because nobody gave me a chance to do everything. Catherine.

Speaker 1: 7:38

Oh my God. So you didn't even have a chance to sit and mull over the data and get a good night's sleep and be prepared morning you were receiving the data whilst on the train, where you're already exhausted. Yes and then. And so how did you actually manage to overcome the fear in that in those situations?

Speaker 2: 7:58

yeah, one aspect was the team, because I had a fabulous team. I surrounded myself with people who were positive, high energy, always wanting to to, you know, to help and to kind of look after me, to protect me. So I had a really, really loyal, friendly team and I kind of picked those sort of people and surrounding myself with people who would lift my energy and help me, and I think that's always good advice to anybody surround yourself with good people in life. It's such an obvious uh point to make, but just don't have any mood hoovers anywhere near you. If you can help it, it just doesn't hoovers?

Speaker 2: 8:31

I love that yeah, I picked that up from a former ceo of midland bank. Actually, he used to use that all the all the time and I just thought it's. It stuck with me for many years. That's a really good description.

Speaker 2: 8:42

Yeah, mood hoovers anywhere near you have people that will lift you, give you energy, and then the other thing is just to suck it up. You know, if you know that you're going to go into the coliseum and you know people are going to be trying to slay you and there'll be animals sort of attacking and you know um, you know crowd jeering hoping for a fall, or you know a bit of blood. It is a blood sport. I guess you could argue. You know, you kind of just got to suck it up and say, well, I'm not going to let that, you know, get to me. You know, flap your cheeks, shake yourself down, as I used to do before going into the forum, and then I'd always try and use a bit of humor to try and lighten the mood and sometimes that worked.

Speaker 2: 9:18

But, as you can imagine, we actually went through the financial crisis in 2008. And you know that that was right in the middle of the four years when I was giving these updates. So I saw um, you know, I saw the world's banking crisis right from the inside, working for the world's largest bank at the time and, uh, you know, dealing with, well, everything sort of spilled out of that and uh, yeah, I've learned so many lessons from from that experience. But, uh, a break place and a little joke and surround yourself with positive people and you can get through anything.

Speaker 2: 9:52

Catherine the first you know, I'll admit even the four, four years in before I eventually um moved countries um whilst I was still there doing that role, even the very last day that I did it, there were intense butterflies and nerves, but you just have to kind of swallow those down, put a brave face on it, be as prepared as you possibly can be, and then step into the auditorium.

Speaker 1: 10:16

Yeah, and you also mentioned there shaking yourself down, I think that's.

Speaker 2: 10:22

Do you mean like physically, shaking yourself down Physically and if I was walking with other people I wouldn't start slapping my face and shaking my arms. But in my mind I've been talking and perhaps I'd zone out in the last few seconds as we went into the auditorium but I was kind of, yeah, just getting myself psychologically prepared for battle, yeah, I think that term shaking yourself down so even if you're doing that physically, I know can be very helpful, because fear is is felt in the body and it's held in the body, isn't it?

Speaker 1: 10:54

and if it's stuck, then it's that's when it can have the greatest hold over you. But shaking the body out can actually make it start moving around and lose its hold, and there's all sorts of other energy going on inside you as well as the fear, isn't there?

Speaker 2: 11:08

Yes.

Speaker 1: 11:08

Not just all fear, it's just, that's the one that is most evident in that moment, is the most presenting feeling in that moment.

Speaker 2: 11:16

People get crippled by it.

Speaker 2: 11:17

But as I stepped across the threshold into the room, I would always force myself to just put a block across that fear which is still there, it present, and then just put a big smile on and see people in the room you know a bit of banter and chat about how they are and their family, just trying to create a bit of a bit of lightness, um, and having compartmentalized the area that was was fear, um, and then just project the, the positive energy.

Speaker 2: 11:41

And it'd be interesting to know I don don't know I've never asked the question but how many of the people and often there'd be over 100 people crammed into the room in the sort of spectator seats and obviously all the people that would watch it on video subsequently. I don't know how many of them thought, because I'm quite confident and I project confidence how many would know the sort of terror and fear that being in that sort of forum, being held account accountable for the results of, you know retail bank um, you know sales performance, how much of um, yeah, well, how well I did, and how you know I knew it was underneath. I don't know yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1: 12:21

Well, I imagine some of those people would have been in equivalent situations themselves in the past. So for some of those people would have been in equivalent situations themselves in the past. So for some of them they would have memories of that, whether or not they try and suppress those memories, who knows? But also, it comes down to empathy, doesn't it? I mean, some people have more empathy than others, and I would have thought anyone with any empathy would be able to realize that you might not be just purely having a lot of fun doing this. It might actually be a bit fearful and a bit of a challenge, but I think people outside these organizations often have no idea of what goes on inside in terms of those incredibly challenging. You know, that's an emotionally and psychologically challenging situation for somebody and it takes quite a lot of fortitude to keep doing it with good humour.

Speaker 1: 13:17

You know, I think some people go into those situations if they're experiencing fear and deal with it by going in hostile, and you've probably seen people do that, haven't you?

Speaker 2: 13:27

Yeah, and that really doesn't work.

Speaker 1: 13:29

No, it doesn't. It really doesn't, but it's like an offensive-defensive strategy, isn't it?

Speaker 2: 13:37

Yes, it is.

Speaker 1: 13:38

But you went in with goodwill, so you weren't sort of going in and saying you've put me in this situation. You are inflicting this fear upon me.

Speaker 2: 13:52

I hate you no no, no you can never stop doing that yeah, yeah, do you know what? I went to my first um baseball match a couple of weeks ago in new york new york yankees never been before, and it reminded me of this forum. There was a split second where I looked around the ground and most people are just eating hot dogs, you know, these giant cokes and popcorn, and that's kind of what I felt. It worked.

Speaker 2: 14:13

For many people I think it was a sport to be able to sit there and listen and watch and they were just enjoying it and the more sort of banter and sparring and you know um humor or, like I said, if it was really, you know if I was on the ropes or something. I think they quite enjoyed it. It was like watching a a baseball match. But I've always looked back on that period of four years any monday when I'm having a great time in my life at two o'clock I always just think, gosh, I'm glad I'm not doing sales and trading had a big smile on my face because you survived I survived and I I'm probably better for it, katherine.

Speaker 2: 14:49

I mean, if you can imagine that intense environment, I can. I can go into any form. There's no form you could throw me into that. I would feel out of my depth or, you know, would think was even difficult these days. Really, by comparison, I can't think of a worse environment than that yeah, so it strengthened you as well, and did you?

Speaker 1: 15:07

did you? Um? I know you said you put a block in front of the fear. After you'd arrived, you put a block in front of the fear, um, were you still aware of it being there?

Speaker 2: 15:34

And did it continue to be there all the way through, or did the fear start to abate after a bit? During the situation it wasn't all attacking blows, but but some people can't, can't help themselves. But anyway, once you get into that sort of forum, for me it was trying to help everybody in the room truly understand what the performance was, um, you know, and relative to last year and the previous week, in the previous month, but also what perhaps needed to happen. So you know you'd have the I don't know, I'll make an example. You know you'd have the person in charge of mortgages talking about, well, the mortgage sales in the bank haven't been good enough. Sort yourself out, philbert, sort the teams out.

Speaker 2: 16:09

And I'd be thinking, well, maybe if we advertised and marketed the fact that we've got a great new rate on our mortgages, rather than having a picture of a goat in a tree or a Chinese dragon or an eel, you know, being transferred from one place, you know, maybe it would help us to sell. I don't know, it's a crazy idea, but um, so yeah, but in a non-confrontational way, trying to make those sort of uh, those gentle points in a balanced manner, and then listen to their perspective as well, because maybe you know, maybe you know a chinese dragon dancing around does conjure up, you know, cheap mortgages to people in britain. I don't know, but who?

Speaker 1: 16:49

knows? Does it just remind you that the bank was started by pirates in hong kong?

Speaker 2: 16:53

well, there we go. Is that really the message of your comment, athrin? That's your comment.

Speaker 1: 17:00

It's a great bank and I won't hear it I was told that by people who work for the bank. So yeah, I know exactly. So it sounds like your attention shifted from your own sort of fear slash survival into a creative purpose for what you were there to do yes, I think that can be the pivot, can't it?

Speaker 1: 17:24

because the fear is the other side of the, the passion to contribute something you know, and people have often said to me that you only experience fear if you are actually moving into a situation that is stretching you, yeah, which is a good thing.

Speaker 2: 17:47

The moment you realise and for me it took a while that no one's really attacking me, it's not about me at all.

Speaker 2: 17:52

It's not about me. I'm the vessel that is receiving the questions and the challenges of people, most of whom genuinely want to know what's going on and how it can be improved. And once you realise it's not about you and it's about trying to help that audience not be defensive about perhaps you know things that look, on the face of it, not not good enough, but to actually try and understand what is really happening and what we could do to make things better, then the fear disappears because it's not about you. Then you're just, you're just helping people and therefore your, you know what your role is positive and you know it's engaging and helpful and and actually, on balance, I think most people, um, you know, are sort of good people and most people see it that way and but certainly, letting go of the fear once you get going, once you've done it enough times, but the fear was always there, even that last day. Four years, four years of mondays, five commutes, dear me, you shake it off now, kathleen, I'm shaking it, I'm gonna shake it off.

Speaker 1: 18:51

I'm empathizing with you over here, but I've had other conversations with people in the bank dealing about these sorts of not the same as yours, these sorts of challenging situations. So I hope the listeners have actually picked up that the people who work inside these big banks are not just sitting there eating doughnuts and drinking coffee and counting money. They are actually going through all sorts of… Neil is shaking his head sagely. No, it's not a picnic. I'll also say that the way you've described how you dealt with that in that situation suggests to me that you already had some capacity for overcoming fear before you went into that situation. Otherwise, I don't think you'd have been able to do that in the way that you did. So would you like to share the more personal example of when you first connected with overcoming fear?

Speaker 2: 19:45

yeah, I, I was thinking of, um, I was thinking of one where I failed I think that's sometimes good to look at where I didn't necessarily overcome fear, and then perhaps others where I have. So, the one where I look and I think I I failed through fear to do something and I it doesn't happen anymore, by the way, it really doesn't. I've learned. But, um, my good friend and colleague, um, a gentleman called tom, uh, he and I have very, very good friends and we're working in bristol at uh sun alliance, as it were, naval sun alliance and uh, he said look, you know, I'm just going to take a year off, I'm going to go around australia and just just enjoy myself. You know, I've never done it, I've never taken a year off, I'm just going to do that. Why don't we do it? Best mates, we can go over there, we can just have a wild time together. And I was so serious about my career and myself. I was like I'm a trainee underwriter, I'm learning about insurance and I'm doing my professional qualifications. And you know, at the time I'd left school at 16 and I was taking a levels, evening classes that I was very serious about and it's all very, you know, very serious. And uh, even though this guy is such good fun he's one of my best friends in the world still, and he's a wild child, he and I would would have had a blast, and he did go on to have a blast um, I, uh, through fear, I kind of said, no, I'm just gonna stay here and, you know, do what I'm gonna do. And uh, um, and actually you know these these are some sliding door moments, because I then met my now wife, um, when, when tom went off to australia and I stayed in bristol and uh, you know, to fight the good fight in the insurance, and uh, and I ended up getting all my qualifications, I became a fellow of the Chartered Insurance Institute. I married my wife. We've got kids, you know, two beautiful kids and if I'd have gone, you know, would I have met Marie. So, I don't know, big sliding door moment, but there was fear and I gave into it but there was a happy ending.

Speaker 2: 21:40

On that one I'm trying to think of, yeah, of other examples of fear where I've overcome it. Some are thrust in your face and you have to overcome them. There's two. I can think of One with the father-in-law when we were on holiday. We came out of a curry house, happy as Larry, and then he collapsed into my arms, having had having had a heart attack, um which we didn't realize, but you know, I just stepped into the road. The first car that was was there happened to be a taxi. We shoved him in the taxi and said to the hospital and, as it happens, the the hospital, um over in um, new York. It just happened to be like two minutes away, which was which, as it happened, saved his life. We dragged him in and he'd had a massive heart attack.

Speaker 2: 22:27

And then the fear I had to overcome them was how to keep the family together, how to um help everybody, because the ladies his wife, um and marie and his daughter was there with my, my partner, um, they were dealing with. They couldn't eat, they couldn't drink, they couldn't move, they'd gone into complete meltdown whilst he was on the operating table and for the two weeks afterwards when he had a second heart attack after surgery. It was a terrible experience, but I had to overcome my fears of losing her we were so close and seeing what it was doing to to my wife and her mom and just just work through that fear and help them and get them through it. And we ended up. I would challenge them every morning to have a croissant and I would break it up into little bits, you know, and try and encourage them to to, you know, have this, uh croissant with a hot chocolate, to swill it down because they just weren't eating. They'd gone into, you know, shock, shock, shock and uh, yeah, that was an example.

Speaker 2: 23:28

Um, and then, even closer to home, um, my daughter was very, very ill when she was little and she was nine months and she, she was on the life support machine for seven days and, overcoming that fear every day of my wife stayed in the hospital, I'd come home, keep things going at home and then come back in every day and trying to uh weather the storm of not knowing whether she'd survive that experience, helping my wife through that experience, being strong for the family and the wider family. They're all terrified seeing the girl in the bed next door, a girl named maizey, who did pass away, unfortunately. Um, during the time we were there, daisy fortunately survived and she now is a wonderful, healthy, beautiful, successful businesswoman in her own right, living over in Australia double degree, just absolutely thriving Whenever I see her now, when I look back to when she was nine months old. It's incredible what, what she she got through. But there's dealing with that fear. There's a huge fear when people around you are under threat.

Speaker 2: 24:32

Yeah, and being able to manage through those situations is really, really, really tough. Yeah, they make you a better person. I don't want to ever go through those things again, but obviously we all do in our lives. Everybody listening to this will have had some similar experience. Um, some will have froze through the shock and some will have been able to sort of um sort of manage through it. And you know, I seem to, in times of crisis, I seem to be able to to manage those situations quite, quite well and get through them and help others through them, and then collapse afterwards.

Speaker 1: 25:03

Yes, yes, because that is another thing that happens, isn't it? Where somebody really shows up in the moment to help deal with the crisis and they kind of put to one side their own need, their own vulnerability, temporarily, and then afterwards then they need some space and some time to actually process that. Yes, yeah, fantastic. So where did this, where did this faculty? And you come from? Do you think were your parents particularly good at overcoming fear?

Speaker 2: 25:35

um, yeah, I think. So dad did two jobs, you know he did. He did his job and then he'd do a full, um second shift, so he would sort of double up every day and then come back absolutely exhausted. He was working for british rail and, uh, you know, just a true stalwart for the family, he'd work every hour god sent, come back, you know, make his way into, you know, to the bedroom to slap our legs if either of us have been naughty, my brother or I, which we invariably had. I didn't want to hear that. You know, 2 am when he got home after a double shift. But, um, he was a great dad, you know. Um, yeah, he worked through adversity, and my mom also. Just, you know, one of the strongest people I've ever met. Um, she went through, you know, two lots of cancer. Um, she was like a barmaid, so a hardworking individual, but she worked through accountancy exams, became a qualified accountant, worked for one of the big British building companies. But the two of them very humble, very sort of poor background, I guess.

Speaker 2: 26:37

They always bonded together, they always fought for any adversity and they're kind of shining lights for me in terms of what you can achieve yeah I guess we kind of went from you know um sort of lower end of society you know, to kind of you know moving up into the sort of lower middle class you know they've earned, uh, their keep. They've really done well, they fought through a lot of adversity and got to this point, and then that gave us a platform, my brother, my sister and I to to you know sort of press on and try and take the family to the next sort of run of the ladder I know that sounds very capitalist, but I mean in every sense.

Speaker 2: 27:14

You know, not just monetarily but all the you know the, the job prospects, what you can do with those job prospects, the the you know what you can do with, where you can live and the choices you can give to your own children. I think most people do want to sort of move up the ladder. You know right that's. But they certainly laid that foundation, catherine, on how to work. You know really hard and grind out a victory for the family. I learned from them.

Speaker 1: 27:42

Yeah, yeah, no-transcript, and not everybody has that sort of approach and attitude that you do. The lack of blame in the way that you describe these situations is particularly noticeable to me, because I think a lot of people, if they experience a lot of fear, the immediate reaction is to look to blame a person or a situation for the pain of the fear. And it sounds like you're just not doing that. And it sounds like your parents didn't do that. They could have easily said my life's really difficult. Whose fault is it? It sounds like they had a self-responsibility about them, and did they also have that kind of humor that you've expressed in terms of Sure, yeah for sure, dad was forever taking us on shortcuts.

Speaker 2: 28:36

This is before, you know, there was satellite navigation and you know Mum would be sat there, you know, tutting and saying your father's taking us on another shortcut. Children, it'll be an extra hour to the campsite, you know, and it was always done in good humour. They were always very light and you know, um, yeah, so they're an inspirational uh couple. I was so lucky to to be um their child and um, yeah, I think I learned a hell of a lot from the catherine, right, I mean, they've both gone now and it was you know they went early both of them, both to cancer, different types of cancer, seeing them battle through that, both of them, you know, privately, silently, you know no drama.

Speaker 2: 29:15

You know I learned so much about what these hospices do. I am forever indebted to hospices. They were in different hospices but what hospice workers do is incredible and when you see that from the inside then you want them to have more power, more funding. But what they do is absolutely incredible the way they look after and how both my parents pass over at different times. But losing them young, you know, that kind of helped me to grow, I guess, quicker, perhaps Because you suddenly realize hold on, I'm the adult, you know, and by then I was like early 40s and of course I'm an adult. But you don't ever really realize you're an adult until you lose your second parent yeah, yeah, I know exactly what you mean.

Speaker 1: 29:59

I had a similar experience and you suddenly realize hold on, I'm the head of the family. God, we're doomed. Yeah, exactly I'm saying the quarter player with my crayons, but now I need to make decisions I need to actually be responsible, but it sounds like that self-responsibility thing was imbued into you right from an early age and it sounds like that was very, very helpful yes, I mean, I've got a similar thing in my background.

Speaker 1: 30:24

My parents were scots and the scots, whatever you may say about them, they've got a very strong, um dour sense of humour, as in we're going to have fun, no matter what.

Speaker 2: 30:37

Exactly.

Speaker 1: 30:38

How bad things get.

Speaker 2: 30:40

I've got a lot of Scottish friends. I love the Scots.

Speaker 1: 30:43

Yeah, they can be annoying, but yeah, that quality of, yeah, we're going to have a good life.

Speaker 2: 30:51

Yes, whatever.

Speaker 1: 30:52

And also that sense which you said several times in the conversation about focusing on the contribution that you want to make. How can I be helpful in this situation? And that's what I call a spirit of service service to other people and I think that's a real saving grace. Often, I think it's a real problem when we get self-obsessed into no, no, I'm frightened. Poor little me and that thing you're representing. Well, yeah, poor little me, but that's not very interesting. What's more interesting is how can I be contributing?

Speaker 2: 31:29

It's the choose your attitude. That's what I always think is choose your attitude, because even when you're in those sort of moves, you've been sorry for yourself and it's usually something pathetic. But you know, I say to myself I just got to choose my attitude here and now. Right, do I want to be sort of a bit down and, you know, a bit grumpy about something, or I just want to be positive and we choose. Right, it's. It's, even if you don't do it consciously I've tried to force myself to do it consciously am I going to be up? Am I going to be positive? Is the glass half full or am I going to allow myself to look at things negatively? And just, I always flick the switch to positive, because you know why be down, why allow yourself to feel negative, why not just, um, you know, quickly flick the switch and go positive? And because better things happen when you're positive wonderful.

Speaker 1: 32:11

Well, and I've no doubt that the people around you are benefiting from that approach as well, and good for you in that regard. So, if we think about leaders in the world today, now there's an awful lot going on in the world and everyone's got their own opinion about what is, or should be, or has, etc. Happened. It's very easy to get opinionated about all of that, but, bottom line, I think there are a lot of leaders in the world who are trying to be part of the solution, and I'm including people who are just simply trying to be leaders in their own lives.

Speaker 2: 32:48

Yes.

Speaker 1: 32:49

Now, some of those people are listening to this podcast right now. Some of those people are looking to this podcast right now and some of those people are looking to soak up advice and input and so forth, which I know you've done all your life as well, as we were talking in the prequel, soaking up input from other people. If you've got an opportunity now to say something to those people in regard to overcoming fear, transcending fear, what would you like to say to those people in regard to overcoming fear, transcending fear, what would you like to say to those people?

Speaker 2: 33:17

Well, there are certain things that are happening in the world that somebody can change and governments, I find, often don't make the big changes that they need to. I'm going to give you some silly examples. There's one this week and I posted about it on my LinkedIn. I was really annoyed when I saw the billions of gallons of sewage just pumped into Lake Windermere. You know I'm very passionate about nature and the environment and seeing you know water companies do these terrible things I'm a sort of regular wild swimmer in the local rivers down here and the idea of just you know people pumping in waste into these rivers it breaks my heart and the damage that it does to the wildlife and the fish. I'm a fisherman so I feel deeply about that.

Speaker 2: 34:02

Now, government can fix these things. They absolutely can fix these things if you say to a water company that's making billions you know several years after the event, so you've allowed time to pass and you know and then you say, well, we're going to challenge you. You know, a hundred pounds, you naughty people. It's meaningless. It's absolutely meaningless. And every day, millions of gallons of waste are pumped into the waters in Great Britain and I'm sure this happens in other countries. I'm sure it happens Now, I've certainly seen some examples of that in the US. I'm now. I certainly see some examples of that in the us. I'm sure it happens everywhere.

Speaker 2: 34:37

But government using that very specific, simple example could, could fix that. So you know the fact that there are shareholders behind these, these private water companies, it doesn't mean that you can't take very, very powerful action against them and you should. So you know somebody in rishi, in charge of the conservative government in great Great Britain at the moment. He and his ministers could take immediate action on that one particular issue, immediate action, and they could rectify it overnight. Because if the charges, the fines, the restrictions, the punitive action placed on a water company, if they did this ever again, was enormous, it would instantly stop because the shareholders would insist on it stopping. So been going on for you know, as long as I can remember, under multiple governments. This isn't a conservative issue, it's across all governments. But it could be fixed blink of an eye. But that takes powerful leadership because rishi would have to presumably give a few things away to get other people on side to to vote for this. And I understand policy, I know what goes on behind the scenes, right, so I know that, but it's something that could be fixed. So I think there are things that leaders could do, and I picked one that's really simple and tangible and get your arms around it, because it helps to illustrate if there is a willingness to do something really powerful, really dramatic and and that's a subject I think would pretty much you wouldn't be able to find a single person, apart from an executive, in a water company, a sewage company. You wouldn't find a single person in the country that likes the idea of waste being pumped into their beautiful waterways. Not a single person. So it has to be a vote win.

Speaker 2: 36:08

And there are many examples. They're often simpler ones, I accept, but they are often ones you can fix. Yeah, I mean, we, just around the corner of the back of our place here, there's a pothole that is so enormous that any cyclist that hits, hits it, comes off and hurts themselves. So we've been here in this property five years. We've raised it every year with highways. Um, they, they do send crews out and occasionally they'll pour a pour a bit of gravel into this big, big hole and then the next night it will rain and it will wash it away, and then we have to phone up and complain again and say you know, try tarmac. I don't know, try tarmac. It could actually be better than that.

Speaker 1: 36:41

Radical idea.

Speaker 2: 36:42

Radical idea. And then, literally this year, you know, a group of cyclists came round, tried to take the corner. One of them hit the you know the pothole smashed into the, the you know the sort of curbside, and then we had to help him in and his friends helped him into our garden room whilst we waited for an ambulance because he had serious you know concussion and I think he broke his arm, as it turned out as well. And this group of cyclists they were saying, neil, this happens all the time. It happens all the time because of the number of potholes right now.

Speaker 2: 37:10

That's something so simple and so tangible that councils and again, this is across different parties, this is not a party political broadcast they haven't fixed these issues. These issues are simple to fix. If you pour gravel into these holes, it'll wash away the next day, so it's a total waste of money. If you invest a little bit more to actually do it properly, then you can fix brisbane's roads, but that needs councils to invest the money to do that. So and they'll say, well, hey, near, we've got to fix, you know, hospitals and. But every issue can be solved if the leadership in that country are serious about prioritizing the issue, and then politics is swept aside and results are driven down from the top for the local councils to implement and then manage properly. Yeah, yeah, any of these issues could be fixed and I know this is.

Speaker 2: 38:01

It sounds really trivial the points I'm bringing out, but I think when I was over in america that's a couple of weeks doing business, katherine and you talk about the american politics and you'll have some of your listeners that are over in america and there's pretty much again, everyone I spoke to is looking for a middle ground solution. I didn't meet anyone that says, yes, we should be absolutely right wing and you know, uh, although we should be completely left. It was people talking about, you know, sensible provisions in america, sensible compromise, whether it's the sort of gun regulation or it's about um border or any of the really sort of hot topic issues. They're at the middle ground if it's sensibly discussed and I engage a lot of people in these sort of political discussions over there Nobody wants the current system.

Speaker 2: 38:48

Yeah, two sort of geriatric leaders you know, and one, oh my gosh, you know. Just look at the facts about the individual you know, one of them obviously very old and you know, and the other insane. I mean it's. There has to be a middle ground, right, and I think people on both sides of the equation are looking for this sensible middle ground and I think people would vote for that. I think their system in America is even more broken than over here. I would encourage Rishi Catherine to fix some of the simple things by being brave, not being held back and just getting on with things that the public actually want.

Speaker 1: 39:28

So you think that putting into practice some of what you've just suggested could be facilitated by the leaders overcoming their own fear.

Speaker 2: 39:39

Yeah, something's blocking them from doing these things and I think with politics it's trying to make everybody happy, trying to sort of make lots and lots of compromises, but there are certain things that I think are just so black and white that everybody would support these things being addressed and being addressed very strongly. But I think it's politically correct to say NHS, nhs, nhs, nhs, nhs. That's the one that's politically correct. But the amount of resource that's poured into the NHS the piece about is it all being managed? Is every single penny being accounted for? Yeah, I mean, when I had a knee operation, catherine, and they sent me home in a wheelchair and with some crutches, there was absolutely no follow-up whatsoever to make sure I returned the wheelchair and the crutches.

Speaker 1: 40:26

Right and those are expensive pieces of kit.

Speaker 2: 40:29

Hugely expensive. I mean, obviously I took them back because you know of course you would. Why would you do anything else? But you know there aren't those systems in place, the basic systems to manage the resources properly. But I think to say anything about the NHS other than we're going to pour more money in is really politically sensitive, unless you put aside the fear. If you set aside the fear and say this is what I'm going to do and these are the reasons I'm going to do it, of course we're going to support the NHS. The NHS is incredibly important, but I think there is some mismanagement of the money and there must be Catherine, right, I've seen it. And, to be clear again, to do a political. You know the NHS do a brilliant job.

Speaker 2: 41:20

They've looked after me and my family and I think the nhs is a wonderful gem and you know, I think everybody in america would love to have the nhs. Yeah and um. So I think nhs is brilliant. But the point I'm making is there are ways to manage resources better to make sure that more things are fixed in the world. But you've got to be really brave to prioritize, and I use two silly examples. But I think they're examples of practical, tangible things that could be done. That may not appear to be as important as just throwing billions more at defence contracts or NHS is.

Speaker 1: 41:45

You're kind of pairing up the psychological and emotional aspect of the matter, with the practical and the pragmatic, which I think is something that's often missing in the narrative, although I do listen to some podcasts where they do do exactly that, which I find very, very interesting, but the way you describe that makes perfect sense to me. I actually did quite a lot of work for the post office not very long after they privatized Is that the right way to describe it? Yeah, and they were transitioning from a situation of being a cost center to a profit organization and there was an awful lot of pain people went through in regard to becoming accountable and the whole accountability thing and there was fear in the leadership about implementing that.

Speaker 1: 42:47

But you know the fear of losing popularity and the fear of people leaving, the fear of people just stopping their jobs, not doing their work, etc. Etc. But they et cetera. But they had to do it and they did it. So you know I've seen some very interesting examples of exactly that.

Speaker 2: 43:07

And that's a really sensitive one to have gone to, with all the things that have happened subsequently with Verizon, and I know you're not linking the two things- no, no, it was a long time before that.

Speaker 2: 43:15

Good, yeah, exactly. But yeah, I think to change any organization dramatically takes guts. I've been through loads of organizations over the years and it does take courage. It does take guts doing things differently and opening up offices in the United States, and that was something that some of the other senior leaders in the organization had some fear around, because to go and sort of conquer the US, as it were, and be successful in the US, it costs a lot of money, it takes a lot of time, it removes a lot of focus, it's a long way away, so there's a lot of travel, the entire business, et cetera, et cetera.

Speaker 2: 43:57

But the easy thing to do in any organization is to not make change because that's safer. Right, don't make change. But if you just don't change and you don't grow and you don't take risks, then your business is never, it's only going to contract, it's never going to really, really grow. That's an example of you know, we all had a bit of fear. I particularly was very bullish about we should do this, we bullish about we should do this, we should overcome our fear and we should do this. And uh, I'm always one of those, katherine, if I believe something, I'll I'll see it through as well. And I said, well, I'll take responsibility for that, I'll go over there and I'll set it up and I'll find a local ceo and you know, I'll invest money in this and I'll spend my time over there and I'll, you know, help to make success. And I think that's that's what leaders have got to do. It's taking the risk, you know, removing that bit of fear, committing their time, their effort, their energy into making those things successful. If you remove the fear and then you back it up and go for it, I think it's usually a recipe for success. Um, we, I've got a few others I can give you.

Speaker 2: 44:53

During covid, you know, we couldn't go out and see our clients so much. Obviously because of covid, we couldn't go out at all many times and we pivoted to a slightly different sort of project, a different product in fact, that we were offering, and it was just a kind of one-off. And it's one of those things where, again, the board is saying Neil, what are we doing here, what are we doing? This isn't our core business? And say, well, look, you know everyone's grounded, everyone's at home. You know we're not out talking to people. We can't go. And you know, do some of the bank negotiations face to face. We can't go and meet new clients, that's face to face.

Speaker 2: 45:25

So we obviously switched to teams, as everyone did, or zoom or whatever, um, but we tried a new product, a new offering and, um, it's been extremely beneficial to our clients, extremely beneficial and extremely beneficial to us. But for the first couple of years. Afterwards, catherine, it was kind of on the agenda. So Neil's crazy idea. You know how's that going. Okay, should we just move on, avoid any embarrassment? Okay, I've exaggerated to make a point, but I've got a better word imaginable and everyone's really supportive.

Speaker 2: 45:58

But, you know, taking some crazy risks, doing some things that, at face value, might be a little bit. You know what are you doing. Why are you doing that? If you really believe in it, you can't interfere Trying it, making sure it's a success. Because I actually believe, if you empower people and this is not necessarily senior leaders, it's anybody in the team, right right.

Speaker 2: 46:17

If you empower people and back their ideas, if someone says, I think we should do x, you know, oh well, let's do x, I think we should do it, even if you're thinking x, I'm not sure. If you back the person, give them the empowerment, give them the support, give them the tools, give them the encouragement, you know, nine times out of ten, one in ten, they'll fail. Nine times out of ten because it's something they believe in and they're passionate about and you've helped them, they'll make a success of whatever that thing was. It's just easy to say no, let's not do that or no, you know. So. Everyone's got something to bring to the party, everyone. But we don't always unleash it through fear no, amazing.

Speaker 1: 46:56

Well, thank you so much, neil. This has just been an amazing conversation and I think people could learn a lot from this. So if somebody would like to contact you and chat either more about this or about what you're offering in your business, where would you like them to go?

Speaker 2: 47:22

them to go. I think probably the simplest is is, uh, my linkedin um account, so neil philbrook, with an f, neil philbrook, there's only one of me on the on the system um, that's the one I use. In sort of business life and my private life are intertwined, particularly with my family all being part of the business as well. So I think that's the best place and, as you can tell, I'm very open to talk with anybody, to share thoughts, to have a discussion. So I'd welcome anybody that wants to connect and reach out. And if there's something on the business side that we can do, once they've looked at who we are, what we do, then I'd be happy to help as well fantastic.

Speaker 1: 47:52

And the final question I always ask people has there been a favorite part of our conversation today for you?

Speaker 2: 48:00

when we discussed the subject, you said this is this is why I think neil would be good. From what we've talked about, I wrote down on my bit of paper here five things that I think I should cover, and the thing that I'm sat here amazed at is I haven't touched any of the five big moments in my life where I overcome fear. So I think you're very good, katherine, because what you've done is you've made me open up in areas I haven't talked about, some ever, some for many years that I didn't plan to talk about. So you're very good at this, and you've opened up some things I wouldn't have planned to talk about. I didn't plan to talk about.

Speaker 1: 48:31

Oh good. Well, I hope that you're happy that you've talked about those and that you're not sitting there going. Oh my God, she's made me say things I didn't want to say sitting there going.

Speaker 2: 48:40

Oh my God, she's made me say things I didn't want to say. Not at all. I certainly didn't think I was going to talk about politics today, but yeah, I got on a bit of a rant then, didn't I?

Speaker 1: 48:46

Well, you know, I've heard some ranting. Neil, that wasn't ranting, that was reasoned discussion. Thank you so much. I've really enjoyed this and I'm delighted we managed to do this. Have a fantastic day.

Speaker 2: 49:02

Thank you. Thanks, catherine, lovely to see you.

Speaker 1: 49:08

Thank you for listening to Truth and Transcendence and thank you for supporting the show by rating, reviewing, subscribing, buying me a coffee and telling a friend. If you'd like to know more about my work, you can find out about mentoring, workshops and energy treatments on beingspaceworld. Have a wonderful week and I'll see you next time.