Animal Rights in Politics, with Christine Teunissen

In the 11th episode of the Principles of Change podcast, I discuss politics and their importance when it comes to the fight for animal rights. Christine Teunissen is a dutch politician of the Party for The Animals, a relatively big political party focusing on animal rights and animal welfare.

In Today's Episode:

• Intro
• Definition of political activism
• winning seats in the parliament
• Balancing animal welfare and abolition
• Advice for beginners in politics
• working with other parties
• Christine's Principles of Change

Links:
http://partyfortheanimals.com

Download this app to help animal sanctuaries and non profits at NO cost to you!
https://abillion.onelink.me/42TD/abp

📖 Find out more on my work and get your free ebook: www.sebalex.org 

Transcript

Intro

0:00

Hi, everyone. Thanks for joining us today. I hope you're doing well for those of you don't know me. I'm Sarah Some the middle east speaking society. I'm an animal rights activist lecture, author of the ebook, one animal rights and logic meats that you can download for free in 20 languages. And host of this show, the principles have changed podcast. And each episode, I get the chance to sit down and talk with amazing game-changers for making this world a better place for all beings each in their own way, using their own gifts, talents, and strategies so that we can all learn more and get inspired to take action in whatever way we each can to make this world a better and more just place for everyone. Before I tell you about this week's guests. I want to share with you an amazing tool that you can start using today. Very easily to help humans and other animals alike just from the comfort of your chair. And that is my favorite social media application called a billion. That's a, B I double L I O The way a building works is very easy. It's an application where you can see where to eat vegan and plant-based options. See reviews of figuring and plant-based products. And most importantly, leave reviews. And the reason why that's so great is because every single time you leave a review. a billion converts that review onto a dollar that you can donate to animal sanctuaries and organizations around the world. So you can leave as many reviews as you want, and in return, donate as much money as you wish without using your own money. All you have to do is snap photos of vegan products or meals that you've bought at restaurants. And then leave a review. If you sign up with the link that I provided, the description of this podcast, you'll immediately get a first dollar to donate just for joining a billion. Today's guest is Christine Tennyson. Christine is a Dutch politician of the party, 40 animals. A relatively big political party in the Netherlands who focuses on animal rights and animal welfare. I personally find a lot of value in using political activism to achieve animal rights. And I've always wondered what is the best way to do this? I hope you enjoy this as much as I did, and I learned so much and I'm sure you will as well. I'll see you on the other side.

Seb Alex 1:59

Christine, thank you so much for making time for this. I really appreciate it. How have you.

Christine 2:05

Oh, quite nice. Uh, we had our 15 anniversary being in Parliament for 15 years with the party for the Animals, so it was a great celebration. Wow. We had a big vegan cake and uh, we also dis distributed it to other political parties and, uh, they were singing for us and so it was very, yeah. Very nice. That

Seb Alex 2:25

was last week. That's so. How was their reaction to the vegan cake? Did anyone

Christine 2:29

complain? Well, there was, uh, someone from the farmer's party and she was saying that this was actually her first vegan cake ever. And she liked it. She liked it very much. That's, yeah, that's good. That was quite a success,

Defining political activism

Seb Alex 2:45

Perfect. That's really amazing. And congratulations on, on the 15th anniversary. Just mind blowing that you've been doing this, um, with the party for the animals, uh, for so long. Um, so let's just jump into the subject. How would you define political activism?

Christine 3:02

Well, I think you have to make a distinction between what we call here, instrumental politics and expressive politics. And when you talk about political activism, um, it's on the side of expressive politics. Uh, that is. You see something going wrong in society. And what we see now is with the climate crisis and biodiversity crisis, that our relationship with other living beings and our relationship with nature is disturbed and we have to change that relationship. So if you, uh, look at this like, um, Yeah. Thing that is going wrong in society. You need people who are standing up for it, for the interests of animals and nature and, um, put it into activism. And that can be in a, in society, but it also is necessary in politics to make next steps and to protect the interests of the most vulnerable. So, uh, and that we call expressive politics because it's not politics for, um, Maintaining the status quo and governing the country in a right way. But it's more changing, uh, the way we talk about things, the way we, um, we treat other values than short-term interests of people. And that is what we call expressive politics is, uh, saying, Pointing out where we want to go with animal rights, with environmental issues instead of like making compromises to, to maintain the status quo and to govern country in the right way. And that is what we call instrumental politics. That's the, you use politics to as a means to, to, yeah, to, to govern. Expressive politics is really changing the world for the better. You can say it, and that is like political activism is possible on the streets with demonstrations, but it is also possible inside parliaments.

Seb Alex 5:10

Okay. That's really interesting. I didn't know about the instrumental, um, and the expressive type. So it's always good to learn all these things, especially as an activist myself who's not really involved in politics. Uh, this is such a big area that I, I have so much interest in because I keep on seeing the success in different countries in having political activism, uh, within animal rights. So what are some examples that you, you can give us, uh, about political activism?

Christine 5:37

Well, first let me tell you something about the start of the party for the animals, because I think that's a good illustration of political activism. Um, we started in 2003 and it was in the period that there were a lot of activists, uh, pleading for, uh, a ban on fur. And um, they made a lot. Effort to go inside Parliament to talk with a lot of politicians. And these politicians were saying, oh yes, that's a good idea. We have to ban fur because it's, it's cruel. Um, and so they were invited to drink a cup of coffee and to talk about it. And then there was a new government. Everything changed and all the efforts from the, um, the activists were putting off the table so the ban fur didn't went through. So there you can see that, um, That, that you can be an NGO or an activist pleading for animal welfare in the Netherlands. But when it comes to political action, then yeah, you are not inside parliament and politicians say no. They put other values at first. Uh, other political interests, uh, people's interests. So, um, we noticed then, uh, in that time that it wasn't, was more effective actually to go inside Parliament, so they couldn't refuse us anymore, then stay outside. And that's when the Party for the Animals, uh, was founded was also after, uh, uh, an, uh, protest against, um, using a fur of seals. And that was, uh, after that. Some people, Maria Tema, she's one of the founders of the Party for the Animals, and Nico Kaman is also one of the founders. They decided, well, we have to do this differently. We have to sit inside Parliament so they can't go around us anymore. They can't throw us out Parliament anymore when they are tired of us. So we have to get insight. So we have speech time, we have, uh, time to. Well, to express our ideas inside and also look for support, uh, at other, other political parties. And that's what, uh, what they did. So they founded a party for the animals in 2003. And, um, then they, they made a campaign. And what you saw in this campaign was, uh, also a typical example of political activism and the success of political activism was that, uh, our party leader, that Mariana Tema, she went to, um, a lot of debates during election time was the first time we participated in elections and when, um, there was a subject. Of agriculture or nature. And there were some statements made like we have, uh, all animals, um, uh, have the right to live according to their natural. Behavior. And uh, then every party was saying, yes, that's very important. And it was only because the party for the animals was there. And it was only because, uh, other parties felt the competition and they saw, oh, that's really a blind spot that we didn't see before. Because there are a lot of people in society who think animal welfare and animal rights are really important and the government doesn't do enough. So when we don't show that we care about animals, then we will lose votes. So that was the first political success. And we were not yet in parliament, but because the party for the animals was there, they felt, uh, that they had to do more and. Well, of course in the end, uh, nothing changed really because they promised that, uh, that animals, uh, have to show their natural behavior, but in the end, they didn't do anything. Uh, and that's. A part of the success form the part for the animals that, that we were showing that we really care and that we really do active propositions to change the, um, the circumstances for animals.

Winning seats in the parliament

Seb Alex 9:47

Yeah, that's true because sometimes it's not always about winning straightaway. It's more like putting the conversation on the table, like that's also a win. As you said, if, if the party for the animals wasn't there, no one was gonna speak about those things. And after founding the, the party in 2003, you said, how long did it take until you started winning seats and being in the Parliament?

Christine 10:09

Well, that was already very quick. Uh, we. Almost won a seat during the election time in 2003. Then we participated in the elections, uh, for the European Union, and that was in 2004. And we, well, of course we didn't wanna see there. We were too small, but. Um, the still, like the pacer in the marathon? The, the, yeah. The, uh, function, which I described just now, um, just that other parties are running faster for animal welfare was also visible during election time of the European, uh, elections. And then in 2006, we. Two seats in parliaments and every journalist was astonished. Like how did they do that? You know, because we were still made fun of in the media. Mm-hmm. And that is also. I think a sign of political activism is that, that you're standing for things that are controversial at the moment. So it's when, when we talked about a party for the animals, then people found it a little bit threatening as well, like. Uh, what's the next thing? Uh, a party for plants. What's the, what's the meaning of this? Is it, uh, treason of species? Because you're not standing for, uh, human rights, but for animal rights and a lot, there's a lot of, uh, human suffering as well. So why are you choosing for animals? So all that, yeah, it's, it, it was very controversial, but at the same time you saw that we were connecting with a lot of people in society who. Or showing compassion in their daily life, compassion towards other living beings. So it was a movement, a social movement where people already were waiting for to happen. And I think it's not a surprise in the Netherlands because, uh, well we kill, we slaughter every year. We slaughter, uh, 600 million animals here. In the farming industry, 600 million animals, that's an amount you can't even imagine. And so we have far more animals than people here in the Netherlands. Uh, it's not really a surprise that people stand up here in, in, in this small country, this small, rich country. Um, so I think there. The time was right for the party, for the animals to, to grow. But the media, the mainstream media here is also very focused on what's happening during the day and the short term and the, yeah, the juicy details of politics. So they weren't very aware of this political movement, which was going on in, uh, yeah, uh, in our surroundings. So that was really a victory Two. And after that, uh, we did a lot of propositions. Another, there was another sign of political activism, uh, that we, we played a little bit, we were creative with the political instruments that we had, so we didn't follow the right. Um, Uh, yeah. How do you call it? The right way of, uh, of uh, how they do it in parliament, you know, the, um, but, but we use it in a creative way. For instance, when there was an agricultural debate, We used all our time just to do propositions for animals. So not speeching, but do doing 60 propositions motions to change, uh, the law for the better for animals law and policy. So that was really a surprise. And again, the media went very angry because, uh, They were saying, oh, the party for the animals doesn't know how it's going in politics, how you, how you should behave. So that was really a surprise. But again, we got a lot of media attention and it was also a way of growing again. Um, another aspect of being creative is that we, and. Therefore getting more attention, more awareness about animal welfare, because that's of course the most important thing that you create more, uh, awareness is that we used, for instance, the parliamentary opening year to make statements. We also always have this, um, Once in a year we have this opening, and then the king is giving a speech on behalf of the cabinet, and he is explaining the policy of the year. And it's a really big event. And every, uh, woman is, is wearing a hat, a special hat. And of course, the news is about, okay, what? What hats. Hats are this time very special and popular. Was Mariama, um, our former party leader, she was, uh, and now Esther Allen, our new party leader, is wearing, um, a hat with statements every year. And we set this tradition. So one of the first times that we made a statement, we, uh, connected with the initiative of Paul Carney. That was, uh, meet free Monday. He initiated this, uh, this also to ask attention and to, to develop awareness about animal welfare. And then, um, our party leader, Was wearing a hat with meet free Monday on it. And it was a very, very special hat. And then, um, yeah, everybody went asking, okay, why meet free Monday? And then Paul McCartney send us this letter, but with thanking us and, uh, saying that a party for the animals is an example for the rest of the world. Uh, so you saw that we made a statement and created more attention and more awareness. For, yeah, the position of animals. And, and we asked the question, why should you eat meat every day? Um, because there's a lot of suffering behind it. So we could explain the message behind it. And now every year we, we make a statement. This year it was about, uh, um, quitting with, uh, with devastating the, the forest, so destroying the forest. Uh, we made a statement, uh, with like a half tree on, on, on the head of our party leader, and every year people are very curious about, okay, what's the party going, what's gonna happen and what's going to do next? You know, so, um, I think part of the success of the Party for the Animals is also yes, being creative in telling your story and also not, um, being too serious all the time because Yeah, yeah. We know it's a very serious subject. Of course, the suffering of animals, it's very serious. So, um, and, and, and people, there are a lot of serious things going on now in the world, and yeah, people are curious. Yeah, more positive, positive way of activism. I think that that, uh, asks, uh, that, that gives you a lot of, um, yeah, kind responses.

Balancing animal welfare and abolition

Seb Alex 17:21

Yeah, I can imagine. And, and it's really amazing that you've been thinking of all these creative ways of putting the message out there. One thing I'm wondering, uh, which I've been wondering for quite a while, when, when it comes to politics and animal rights and politics, is that there's obviously. This, um, let's say notion of, of course, when you're vegan and if you believe in animal rights, you want the abolition of animal exploitation, you wanna finish like, yes, put an end to this, to these industries. But of course, when you're in politics, you can't just straight away vote to put an end. You have to take other measures, such as the meet Free Monday, you know, like of. Every vegan would wish, like no, every day should be, of course it free every, yeah. So how do you find a balance in that? Because of course it's not, uh, you can't go to, to the one extreme, of course it's not extreme to stop killing animals, but for the change to be overnight, it would be extreme. So how, how do you find a balance between a welfare message and that will, that will basically take us to the abolition or that we are trying to aim for?

Christine 18:27

Yes. Well, that's a very good question, and your right, that you always have to find balance between the abolition of animal suffering and animal use and steps towards that goal. Mm-hmm. and, um, in the Netherlands, we have a very diverse parliament. We have 17 different political parties at this moment. Wow. And so if you want to achieve something, Then well in concrete sense then you have to work together, of course. Mm-hmm. So there's a tension you want to abolish and animal suffering. And at the same time, you have to work together with a lot of parties to get things done. So how we do that is we always point out what's the end goal is. Um, and but not so radical that we. The majority of people. Yeah. So for instance, in our election program, you see now that, um, the amount of animals, like the breeding of animals here in the Netherlands for the farming industry, we say we have to reduce that with 75% mm-hmm. in four years, so, wow. Yeah. So that's already quite far. And of course it's, uh, one of the major steps towards the ablation of the use of animals in total. But if you say, in our election program, within four years, we have to stop using animals, that would be far too well, too far for the majority. So we are very sensitive about what, what is acceptable for people and, uh, being in the forefront. And at the same time, um, not so far that, that, well, that is acceptable that we lose people. Um, when you look in parliament, we always say where we want to go. Like we have to, we say a lot of times we have to abolish farming industry. Um, so we always point out our goal. We also say always like, we have to shrink the farming industry with 75% in four years. We say that, but at the same time we also do propositions, which are a step in the good direction and a smaller step. So for instance, we had. We have this animal law in the Netherlands. It sounds good, but it's a very bad law because it's keeps the industry at place. Yeah. But what we did was, um, um, well, um, Offering an amendment to parliament, which was saying not the animals have to adjust to the system, but the system has to adjust to the animals. So it, it raises more awareness about what the behavior is for, uh, the natural behavior of animals is. And of course, a lot of parties are not so aware about this farming industry that animals can't actually. Um, have their basic needs so they can't, uh, drink all day. Like chickens can't drink all day in farming industry, but a lot of political parties and representatives don't know that. So we delivered this amendment, uh, and it was actually, uh, approved by Parliaments, so that's very nice. So we changed the law and we turn it around. What that means in the end. Now they're really in trouble, the government, because they're like sweating and, okay, what, what can we do with this amendment? How, how do we have to execute it? Because it's so difficult? Because if you think about it, then the system can't allow animals to, to show their natural behavior. So in the end, it's a very far going proposition, but it looks like a very small. And this was approved by Parliament. Mm-hmm. So, and now you have all discussion going on about, okay, how can we execute, uh, this, this, this amendment? Um, so that's one of the examples of a well, um, visibly, likely a small step, but in the end it has, uh, a big impact. And, uh, it's, we are working towards that goal. The same counts for. The abolition of, uh, cooking crabs and lobsters alive. This is also something that, uh, a majority of Parliament thinks it's not morally acceptable anymore. You can see that as a small step. That motion was, uh, was approved just a week ago, and we, that's also our tactics that we. Uh, years before by delivering emotion. Okay? We don't cook crabs and lobster social life, and then it's being, um, dismissed. It's not approved. And then, but. awareness is coming. People are already thinking about it and other parties are thinking about it. Next time, next opportunity, we deliver the motion again. And there's, then there's already more support because parties think, well, a lot of majority of people think, think in society that's not acceptable anymore. So. Mm-hmm. we have to vote for this. And so, uh, last. It was actually approved in parliament. And then you can see that, of course, as a small step in the ablation of animal use, but it's a step forward. Yeah. And that's the most important thing. And in the end, it all contributes to more awareness about animals as living beings and not as objects.

Seb Alex 24:04

Yeah. Thank you so much for sharing that. I, I, I guess that's the perfect answer that, uh, personally I would be looking for. Um, could you, of course, you shared the recent, uh, victory that you had with the motion, but could you share some more victories that you've had thanks to political access and for people to realize what are the different things that they can, uh, start working on? Of course, one day, if they are in politics or a successful party where they can pass motions and proposition.

Christine 24:33

Yes. Well, of course we, we can share a lot because, uh, you, we have a website and we also have an international website where you can find all our propositions. I think it's too far, uh, to, to, yeah. Too much to mention everything. Yeah. But, um, for instance, We also, uh, banned the hunting on like rabbits and, uh, other species which were threatened, uh, actually in their, um, existence. And we, we banned this hunting for temporarily. It was, but still it was a ban. And we also made a discussion, uh, more, yeah, more present about why should you. Anyway. Why, why should you, why, why is it existing anyway? That's also thanks to the party for the animals and thanks to us as we put it on the agenda, um, that people talk are talking so much about animal welfare in the first place in the farming industry. Um, the use of, of animal products. That's a success of the party for the animals being in parliament for, uh, for all these. So you see that only our presence there is already, uh, a success and is already contributing to that awareness. Um, yeah. There are a lot of other things like illegal, uh, hunting. Hunting trophies are banns. Mm-hmm. thanks to us. So the import of them, because we don't. Uh, it's not allowed here. It was already not allowed, but the import of, uh, hunting trophies, that's also, uh, banned by the party for the animals by our proposition. So there are a lot of, um, examples and I, well, I can show you of course, everything on our, uh, our website. I should, I, I can advise people to go there and, uh, to see what we have more. Of course. Also in a climate crisis, we are very, very active. Not only on animal activism, although that's the most important core issue for us, but of course there is, um, in a broader way, we have to change, um, how we treat nature, how we treat. Environment. And so we are very active on, on climate as well. We have this climate law now, uh, we delivered it and there it says what is actually necessary. Um, the contribution of the Netherlands are necessary contribution to make sure that we, uh, restricts the temperature rising of the earth, uh, to one and a half degrees. Uh, that, um, the, the law is showing. So this is also something we delivered in Parliament and, um, yeah, it's, it fuels a lot of discussion about what is realistic and, uh, is it realistic to, to keep on going with business as usual, or is it realistic to listen to the party for the animals and going further. Uh, yeah, so the discussion, uh, we fuel discussions with these kind of proposition.

Advice for beginners in politics

Seb Alex 27:45

I will be linking the, uh, the website of Party for the Animals in the description, um, so people can check out all the details. Now, let's imagine someone's listening to all of this and they're thinking, this is absolutely amazing. I think we should do this, but where do I start? What kind of advice can you give to someone like that?

Christine 28:03

Well, it's good to know. A lot of people don't know that, but we are actually a very, uh, fast growing international movements. We have more than 20 party, 40 animals already worldwide. And in the Netherlands alone, we have 80 representatives at the moment. Mm-hmm. So we are growing really, really, really fast. And, uh, we also help other NGOs who, who are. Yeah. Who, who, who hear about a party for the animals and also want to found their own political party, for instance. Um, in Modo, a political party started, they have a lot of, yeah, a lot of suffering of, uh, stray animals there. It's, it's really. Cruel. And so there are a lot of people came together and said, we want to change something, but in politics, and it was of course, uh, the policy there is, is very, very bad for stray animals at this moment. And it's quite simple actually to change it. But, uh, the NGOs don't get a grip on politics, so they decided there, I want to start a political party. And you see that in other countries as well, like in Portugal. Albania in Georgia, in in Spain, um, in Denmark, Finland. We also, we already have some starting party for the animals there, so if you want to start also a political party and you want to make a stand, yes. Then um, contact us. We have our international website. I think you can can share that and uh, yeah, we can see what we can do to help.

Seb Alex 29:41

Absolutely amazing. And if someone's wondering what kind of obstacles can someone have if they get into political activism, what can you share with us, uh, from your experience?

Christine 29:50

Well, there are actually two big obstacles and one is that people will make fun of you In the beginning, that was mm-hmm. the case in, in it was our case as well, that in the beginning they were just ignoring. And then, uh, after that they were making fun of us. When they saw that we got a little bit foot on the ground, we got more successful. And I think you have to go through that. It's one of the. Yeah, the standard parts of being a social movement. You know, the, what Gandhi said once, like first they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, and then in the end you will win. Yeah. And that certainly counts for animal welfare parties. So, um, that's one of the obstacles you're going to see, that people are going to make fun of you and they will also fight you because they see you as a dangerous competi. And next obstacle, um, is of course the, the political organization in the country. So some countries have a more difficult election. Um, uh, Procedure. So for instance, in France it's far more difficult to get into Parliament because you need a lot of more votes, lot more votes than in the Netherlands. In France you need like 5% of the of the votes to get into Parliament. And in the Netherlands it's. Around 1.2, 1.3%. So it's, uh, more democratic representation and well, in Germany it's also a lot more difficult. So my advice is to, yeah, to, to do a little bit research about how, how, what are the political opportunities, but also when, when it's difficult to get into parliament. Then it's still very useful to found a party for the animals because you can always look what you can do on a local level. You can also be very effective there. And what I was telling about in the beginning that when you are founding a party for the animals and you are participating in elections, you also create awareness. Other parties will see you as a competition. So they will see, they will look if they can, uh, copy some of your, your ideas to get more votes. So it can be very effective already to participate in elections, although, uh, you don't have a big chance to get into Parliament, uh, in the end.

Seb Alex 32:30

And how many seats, because you said the, the first time you got two seats in the Parliament, and how many do you have? We

Christine 32:37

now have six seats in parliament.

Seb Alex 32:39

Wow. And what's the total number of seats?

Christine 32:41

150. Yes. Okay. So that's quite much. And um, That's very good to mention that there is a big difference between power and influence. Mm-hmm. and when you are a very big part. Well, in, in the Netherlands, we don't have one party who has the majority. We always have to work together. But, um, of course you have parties who have a lot of power, they're in the government. But as a small party, you can have a big influence if you are, um, Because you have the space to, to, uh, point out where we have to go in the end. So this, this expressive politics where I was talking about you have a, um, um, you have the means in parliaments to make these statements, and you have the means to put things on the agenda and you have other parties are forced to talk about it. So you can have a big influence, as I was saying, uh, before. The party for the animals was there. People didn't talk about animal welfare in the farming industry. And uh, uh, in, in Parliament there was, there was, was absent, uh, until the party for animals came there. So we have a lot of influence by only putting things on the agenda already. And I think, um, Yeah. And also in other parts, because in other political parties in their program, there also came more awareness and more, uh, propositions for animal welfare because the party for the animals was.

Working with other parties

Seb Alex 34:19

Yeah. And one thing that, uh, I was talking about with my friend recently, when it came to political activism and having political party, he said, you know, I, I just can't imagine, um, having to collaborate or work with non vegans. And I said, yeah, but if I'm not mistaken in politics, you, you don't really have another option because you can't pass a motion by yourself. You do need the support and vote of other parties. So how, how has your experience. And kind of finding partners or, or other groups or political parties who are not maybe vegan, but they're ready to support you in what you're doing. How, how does that roots go? Basically,

Christine 35:02

Well, there are also people in other political parties who are vegan. For instance, we have one, um, person in the liberal party who is vegan and one person in the Labor Party who is vegan, but they're not active, um, advocate for it, but they are vegan in their personal life. So you already see that we have, uh, therefore some sympathy. other, uh, political parties. Um, and my advice is also to create your own space in that because for instance, we do also propositions to make vegan standards in the restaurants, uh, in Parliament. And every time of course we ask ourselves for vegan foods. So you see already the norm is changing in parliament as well, in sight, in the, in the organization because we are pleading. So when you see, when you go to the restaurant now in our parliament, we have a special, oh, um, a special cooking place for vegan. And a lot of people go there, even if they're not vegan. They think, oh, that's nice. It looks nice and it tastes that nice. So I want that and I don't want the meat part. So we are working in changing the norm, and I think you always have to start. Uh, close to your own strength and look from your own. Power and strength. What, what can we do here? How can we change the norm in a friendly way? Because if you don't do that, and if you, uh, if you're going to point out to everyone who is not vegan yet, then you, you don't get majority with you. Then you lose people, and then you are the only vegan in the house. So that's not. Not how we want to see it. We want to, in our actions, we want to change as much as possible and to see that other people from other political parties come with us.

Seb Alex 37:01

Yeah, I guess at one point, um, I've asked myself this question, do I want to be right or do I want to be effective? And sometimes the way to be effective means maybe I shouldn't be so right all the time. Not that there's right or wrong in this, but. We hold our ethics so important to us that sometimes we don't wanna make any kind of sacrifice, even if it's the most effective thing to do. But personally, I do believe that being effective is more important than being right cuz it has more impact. Now, before I finish with the last question, I do have one more question. What would be your advice for someone who wants to start with activism?

Christine 37:38

Well, I think you have to look for like-minded people in the first place because you can't do it on your own. So you have to look for people who are not only involved with animal activism, but also want to change and want, and know a little bit about politics because you can't, I think you can't change, uh, the way we eat and the way we treat animals when you are not in politics because a. The norm, the norm standards and laws are being made in parliament, in politics. So you have to find people who understand that and want to make their mission, uh, to change that. Um, um, in politics. So yeah, I would advise to look around and find the right people. And you don't need hundred people. Uh, we started with, with five in the beginning, and they were all from animal welfare organizations and they saw, they, they understand the necessary step to go into politics and to change it for the.

Seb Alex 38:46

Perfect. Now to finish off, I always ask, what are your core principles that are pushing you to fight for a better world?

Christine 38:55

Well, um, we have some wonderful, we have four pillars as a part for the animal, four principles, and I think, uh, that's a wonderful starting point to start a movement. One of the principles is compass. Sustainability. The third one is personal responsibility, and the fourth one is personal freedom. And I think that the combination of compassion and sustainability and at the same time, personal freedom and personal responsibility, uh, is a good combination not to. It points out that, uh, you, you, you were talking about being right or, uh, doing well, doing steps in the right direction. Yeah. And I think these starting points, uh, are a very good step in the right direction. And, uh, they inspire me every day. And also, uh, yeah, and the most important. Starting points, I think is compassion. When you start from compassion, not only towards animals, but also towards people. I think that's a, that's a great starting point, and from there you can change the world.

Seb Alex 40:14

Perfect. Well, thank you so much for your time. I really, really appreciate it. I will be putting all the information in description for those of, uh, the listeners who want to learn more. So one more time. Thank you again for all the work that you're doing and for making the time for this.

Christine 40:28

Thank you. It was an honor to be here and to talk with you.

40:31

Thank you again for joining this episode. If you felt inspired or learned anything new, please feel free to share the link with at least one friend or maybe on your social media pages. That definitely helps us reach a lot more people with our work. And if you wish to support this podcast and my work in general, as an activist. Check out my website set alex.org. Thank you again for joining. I'll see you in the next episode.