The Proof is in the Plants, with Simon Hill

In the first ever episode of the Principles of Change Podcast, I sit down with Simon Hill, author of the book The Proof Is In The Plants and host of the Plant Proof podcast, to discuss the details of his best selling book, his journey and most importantly, the reason why he uses podcasts to fight for positive change in this world.
 
 In Today's Episode:

• Simon's Journey
• Why Podcasts?
• Animal Protein Vs Plant Protein
• Is soy safe to consume? 
• Fats & Dietary Cholesterol
• Carnivore & Keto Diets 
• Should you worry about supplements?
• Unhealthy Propaganda 
• The Power of Podcasts

Buy Simon's book: https://geni.us/DFObfhB
Visit Simon's website and get more info: https://plantproof.com

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Transcript

Simon Hill: 0:00

Don't wait to see what loss of health looks like. Don't wait to see someone in your family have a heart attack. Don't wait for, for, you, you yourself to experience loss of health, to experience a heart attack, get on the front foot,

0:15

That was author nutritionist physiotherapist, and host of the show the plant proof podcast simon hill and this is the first episode of the principles of change podcast My name is Alex and I'm the host of this show. I'm an animal rights activist, lecture and author of the ebook. When Adam. The rights are logic meat. Which you can download in 20 languages for free on my website. Set alex.org. The aim of this show is to motivate you to get more active and find in what way you can each personally make this world a better place. During my past seven years of activism journey, I realized that a lot of people that sometimes friends feel very limited in what they can do in order to help other animals, environmental protection or other social issues. And in my own journey of learning from other activists, I realized that so many amazing game changers have found countless creative ways to make this world a better place. I invite these amazing individuals and chat about what they do, their journeys, tactics, and advice. My goal is to finish each episode by making you realize the incredible power of the individual and remind you. That there is no one perfect way of activism. Finally, if you wish to support this podcast, I would really appreciate it. If you can subscribe and leave a review, And if you'd like to support it directly and have access to early and exclusive episodes, please make sure to check the Patrion link provided below.

Seb Alex: 1:36

Today's guest is the person who inspired me. To start this podcast, Simon hill. So, and if you might already know Simon from his work. He is a piece of therapist and nutritionist who is very, very passionate about making nutritional information. Simple. This has helped me personally so much to learn more about the nutrition. He also makes it accessible so that people can make informed decisions about the foods they feed themselves and their family. Simon is the person behind the plant proof podcast. One of the most famous podcasts when it comes to the health category section worldwide. I like many others have seen a lot of value in what he does. And personally, I had the privilege to be a guest on his podcast to talk about speciesism and animal rights around two and a half years ago. And when I realized the impact that that podcast had. It started making me wonder if I should start for myself. Thanks to his work and research and all the interviews that he has done. Simon recently launched his first ever book. The proof is in the plants. Published by penguin books And has already sold tens of thousands of copies in Australia alone. Now I consider myself to be extremely lucky. To be a friend of Simon who very nicely sat via coffee before it's published worldwide. But. By the time you listen to this podcast, it is already available. And the link to his book and his website and everything that we're going to be talking about on this episode will be in the description of this podcast.

Seb Alex (2): 3:16

I don't want to make you wait for too long because. Simon Has so much to share. And I personally have learned so much from his approach. His openness. His way of communication. And I really believe that you will as well. That being said, I'll see you on the other side. Simon, thank you so much for joining the first ever episode of the principles of change podcast. I have no words to explain how excited I am and even to share my gratitude towards what you've done.

Simon Hill: 3:54

i'm humbled, to the first, the first guest uh, when you told me that you were going to start a podcast, I was very excited because, I've been hosting a podcast for, for a long time now. But I am always looking for more shows to listen to. I don't like to listen to my own show and my own voice, of course. And, you know, I couldn't think of a better person to set out and cover the topics that You I go into. So very humbled, very excited to be here. Very grateful as well at my end. I'm really excited to see how your show evolves and grows. And, and I know it's going to do so.

Seb Alex: 4:33

Thank you. I do have to say being on your podcast as a guest, and then following that with obsessively, listening to all your episodes while cycling is the reason why I decided do a podcast when he told me the impact that it had I think last time I asked you, you told me that around 300,000 listeners. I was thinking, this is just amazing. You know, the fact that you can reach so many people. And then when I realized how much information you're able to share through your podcasts, I thought, okay. I think given the situation, the lockdowns and everything, it's time to sorry. So I want to start off by saying, I have no words. for those of you who are not watching or listening, I'm holding the amazing book that Simon has published. The proof is in the plants. I haven't finished it yet. And I'm happy I haven't finished it because I don't want to finish. That's the thing. There better be a part two for this. We're going to talk about it later on. Please stay with us to see everything we're going to cover about that. please tell us your story. How did you end up getting to where you are right now?

Simon Hill: 5:42

very, very happy that you are enjoying the book so far. It means a lot to me. So for me said really the inspiration behind this book was a moment in time. The seed was planted on a particular day, actually, when I was 15 years. And I was out spending the afternoon with my dad. I grew up in in Victoria in Melbourne, the major city of Victoria in the Southeast part of Australia and on weekends, my dad and my brother, and I would often go and explore the country areas rural Victoria and in particular, some areas that are quite well known for producing great wine. And one of these areas is the Yarra valley. And many of the listeners have probably heard of it. they produce some great wines that are known internationally recognized. And these were incredible days days spent just hanging out together. Father, son, bonding time. And just enjoying life. You know, compared to today, life back then seemed so much more simple. and on one particular day, we we'd had an incredible time. Dad would always choose the small little vineyards, because if you went to the small ones, it was more likely you could make the wine maker, the owner, and usually they were very inspired and they tell you all these titles and you know, you could really feel their passion for what they were doing and we'd have these great dates together. It was just my dad and I, and we were driving back home. It was dark. And my dad started to experience some chest pain and I could, I could see, he hadn't actually said to me that he was experiencing pain, but I could see it on his face. And I remember inquiring in and just, you know, asking him if everything was okay. And he assured me that, you know, he was experiencing some pain, but it was nothing serious and it will probably just go away. and we proceeded to drive home. And we had two homes at, at this time. we had a sort of country little house that we'd spend time in the weekend. And then we had a city home and my mom and brother were in the city. So it was just my dad and I out in the country on this weekend. and so we went back and we cooked dinner and I remember inquiring again and he said everything was okay. And so I thought nothing of it. And I went to bed and fell asleep and I was woken to some, some sort of cluttering around some loud noises from the kitchen living space. And I thought that was a little, a little odd. And so remembering that dad had been experiencing some pain, I thought I better go and check, you know, why he's up at this hour and what he's doing out there. And if he's okay and. When I went out, it was very, very clear to me that he was in AutoCAD. And by this time he could no longer deny what he was experiencing. I could, he was out of breath. I could see the fear had set in and in his facial expression, he was pale and he was making his way over to call triple zero, which is the emergency number in Australia. And he actually had them on the line and they asked him if someone else was there to help describe the situation. And that was me. I was the only other person there. And so I took The phone and explain it. The situation as best as I could. And this is all happening very fast. And you know, only a few hours earlier, it seemed we were having just another great day together. And so it was all very much out of the blue and I should add my dad is my dad. Dan was only 41 years old. So, you know, when I say out of the blue, he not only was he 41 years old, but he, for all intents And purposes was very healthy. he was living the typical Australian lifestyle. He was a young father. He was not taking any medications. He was not diagnosed with any conditions or chronic diseases. He was not reliant on the healthcare system. And so I relayed to the person on the line, the only emergency hotline, what was happening and based on that, And where we were located, which was a long way away from the nearest hospital. They said, we're going to send a helicopter. And they did. And the helicopter turned up very, very quickly before I know you, it, they rushed into the house. They attached to my dad to oxygen, heart rate, monitor, checking his vital signs, scooped him up off the floor, put him onto a stretcher and wheeled him out to the helicopter. And I couldn't fit into the helicopter. So they said that I would try all by ambulance and meet them at the hospital. So I did that. And by that time I called my mother and my brother, and they made their way over to, and as you can imagine, or if any of the listeners are thinking about this, who perhaps been through something similar, that feels like an eternity when you're waiting to find out. Yeah. One of your loved ones is going to be okay. And it's a very scary, traumatic experience. And so we got to the hospital and we waited and the doctor came out and We were very, very grateful that when he came out, he told us they had saved my dad's life And that he was having a severe heart attack. and you know, he would be on medications for the rest of his life, but he was going to be okay. and at the time I remember feeling very, very grateful, but I actually didn't realize how lucky he was. And I didn't realize that the number one cause of death in the world is cardiovascular disease. And the leading cause of cardiovascular disease is actually sudden cardiac death. So for many people, they don't get that second chance. And, my dad did. and you know, thankfully he's made the most of that, that second chance. But then the next day there was a meeting sort of a family meeting in the hospital. and that was to kind of debrief us as a family on what had happened, what my dad's health condition was like, what the prognosis would be like, and also to speak to the family about, you know, managing our risk as we grow older. And my brother was 18, 17, 18 at the time, and I was 15 and the cardiologist set us down and explained to us that he taken my dad's history. And my, my, grandfather, my dad's dad had also had a heart attack. And so he explained to us that cardiovascular disease runs in families. And that as we get a little bit older and become young adults, we should be screened periodically and perform blood tests and keep an eye on, on, things a little closer than perhaps someone else. And while that's that's good advice, I wish the advice went a bit further because to be left there gave both my, my, brother and myself, this feeling that it was out of our control and that it was our genetic fate.

Seb Alex: 13:32

yeah, like it's going to come sooner or later.

Simon Hill: 13:35

yeah, like this is the, the Cod you've been dealt. And so that's disempowering in many ways and it wasn't for another decade. Until I had started becoming very healthfully obsessed with nutrition science and getting right into the data and looking at studies that I was able to see that while cardiovascular disease and type two diabetes and various forms of cancer do certainly run and families by and large, they're running in families because families are adopting the same lifestyle. And this is very, very clear in the literature show. Genetics can play a role and we hear all the time that genetics can sort of load the gun, but the lifestyle is what pulls the trigger. And whenever I talk about this, I like to, to sort of clarify, there are very, very rare circumstances and I'm talking very rare where no matter how someone leaves. Unfortunately, their Jane's will determine their health outcome and they'll have a very unfortunate health outcome. But for most of us, even if our Jane's are stacked against us, how we live our lives, you know, diet and exercise and sleep will determine if those genes are expressed. And so those genes don't represent a guarantee. They just represent a risk and we can modify that risk through the way that we navigate through our life.

Seb Alex: 15:14

There was a study. I read in the book I think it was called the Copenhagen twin study. Yeah. All right.

Simon Hill: 15:21

So there's some studies that was a really interesting study. And that was, that's a, it's a sort of a hallmark landmark study, I should say looking at exactly this. And they were able to look at identical twins and identical twins. Right. Great. Because we know that their genes are exactly the same, but we're able to look at what happens. This is investigating sort of nature versus nurture. And what we're able to look at is what is the impact or influence of genes versus environment. And essentially what that study showed by looking at these identical twins was that algae Jane's account for about 20% of our health outcome. Whereas 80% is controlled by our environment, by the lifestyle that we will bead. And so that means our, our lifestyle is four times more powerful. Then our Jane's in terms of, are we going to experience cardiovascular disease type two diabetes, you know, various types of cancer dementia, et cetera. And when you look at it that way, that is empowering. That's the opposite of the way that I felt when I was 15 and was told that my grandfather had a heart attack and my dad had a heart attack and the conversation kind of finished there. So all of that said, and two to sort of answer your question in a rather long winded way, is the inspiration or was the inspiration and still is the inspiration behind the writing behind the creation of this book. and the message I'm trying to give people is don't wait for pain. To make these changes. Don't wait to see what loss of health looks like. Don't wait to see someone in your family have a heart attack. Don't wait for, for, you, you yourself to experience loss of health, to experience a heart attack, get on the front foot, assume that you have bad genetics, assume that and make these changes to give yourself the best chance to live as many years as possible in good health.

Seb Alex: 17:30

All right. between that happening and you publishing the book, you have also done an amazing job with the plant of podcasts, reaching millions of listeners every single month. What was it that made you want To do that? Was it because you realize, I found this knowledge, I have to share it with everyone so that They don't go through it as well.

Simon Hill: 17:52

Yeah, and I feel like the podcast format allows you to, because it is long format, it allows you to talk about some of the, nuance and the and the gray areas that on social media become lost. Everything becomes black and white. And also when you are wanting to address certain myths and perhaps points of confusion, unfortunately it takes much longer to clear up the confusion than it does to create the confusion. Instagram and, you know, and putting posts on there, it is important, but I've also found that. Yeah. The longer format conversation gives people far more information and really is more empowering in terms of clearing up some of those points of confusion. And then, you know, I would add to that, that I think there are so many incredible scientists and doctors out there who do not have big platforms. And really this show for me, was about finding and connecting with with these people and giving them a plot. You know, they've spent years and decades, you know, in the trenches and they have so much valuable information. And sometimes, unfortunately, even though they have the better, more trusted information, they're less heard on social media. And so, it was about trying to give them a greater voice in this conversation of nutrition and in doing so, hopefully being able to clear up some of the confusion.

Seb Alex: 19:30

All right. So talking about confusion, I do have a few points that I want to raise. I think a lot of people would benefit from your knowledge and what you can share about it. Let's start with the myths about protein, complete protein, incomplete protein, animal protein, plant-based protein. What is exactly going on here?

Simon Hill: 19:49

Sure. so yeah I guess at a very, very basic level we can get protein from animal foods And we can get protein from plant foods. And often people will hear that plant proteins are incomplete. I'm sure you may have heard of that before. and I can put my hand up and say, before I had done the research and looked at it, I believe that I did, because that was the common narrative. And when so many people think something and say something, it becomes the truth, but it's actually not the truth. and let me explain this. The definition of incomplete versus complete, that makes you think if you say plant protein is incomplete, that makes you think it's missing something that, that there are certain parts of that protein that I'm missing. But I want to, I want to walk you through what this actually means. So protein is made up of amino acids and these amino acids, you can think of them as building blocks, think of them as, as breaks. And when you piece them all together, you create a wall and that wall is protein and there are 30,000 on proteins in the body. And depending on the order that those amino acids are put in, it will create a different protein. That's a very, very basic way of thinking about, it. and some of those breaks Al body. can make, Those are called non-essential amino acids. We don't need to get them throughout our diet. Our body can actually just manufacture them. Then there are nine of those bricks amino acids, which we call essential amino acids. Those are bricks that our body cannot make. So those essential amino acids we have to get through our diet. Now, when the word incomplete comes up, particularly in online conversations, it's used to suggest that plants or certain plants are missing some of those essential amino acids use to suggest that they do not have all nine essential amino acids. That's incorrect. That is actually incorrect. Every single plant contains all nine essential amino acids. And I know right now you might be listening to that, and that might be news to you. And I completely understand. It is all across the internet. It's even in some nutrition courses, some outdated courses that say that plants are missing essential amino acids. It's not correct. and it's not just me saying that I reference it in the book. There's a great paper from 2019 written by professor Christopher Gardner from Stanford university, perhaps one of the best nutrition scientists in the world. And, and he walks through exactly this, his, his, what incomplete protein means and where it could be useful. The actual definition of being complete was never used, was never created to suggest that plants were missing an essential amino acid. That was just an incorrect misinterpretation of the. word by lay people, which then became the truth. So what that word was intended to be was to, to actually speak to the fact that certain plants do have a, a different ratio of these essential amino acids compared to animal foods. And there are certain plants that have what's called a limiting amino acid. And let me explain what that, what that is. So if we take rice, the there's a limiting amino acid in Roswell, the limiting amino acid Ross' is lysine. I don't want to get too technical here. I will come out and make this very practical. but essentially what that means is said, if you ate just rice for your, your, your, the amount of calories your body needs every day, call it two and a half thousand, whatever it is, if that's all you act, you would get every single, essentially amino acid you, your body needs and are in the required amounts, except for lysine, you would fall a little bit short. so if we're looking at a population perhaps that has huge food security issues, that that only has one food source and is eating that one food for all of its calories, then the definition of incomplete protein becomes more relevant. But if you're eating with just modest diversity, just a tiny bit of diversity, I'm talking about the, you know, the, the least diverse diet out there other than a diet where there's food security issues, the foods, all of the, different plant foods will add up together to give you all of the non essential amino acids that you need providing your eating sufficient calories. And so the definition of incomplete or complete is not very useful in Western populations, although it seems to dominate the conversation online. So I do laugh every time. I see that. So, you know, I like to simplify this just by saying to people that you will get all of the essential amino acids from plants ate with diversity, not just for essential amino acids, but because it's great for your microbiome. And it's great for ensuring a nice supply of various vitamins, minerals, and antioxidants and all those good things. And depending on your level of, of activity and what your goals are, then you might, you might eat more plant foods that are very rich in protein, Like late the legume group might become more of a focus foods like tofu and Tempe et cetera. Or if, if, if you're not, you're not into you know, building muscle and that sort of stuff, then you, you don't have to go overboard on those food groups. And as long as you're eating with diversity, you'll be getting all the protein you need.

Seb Alex: 26:02

All right. Thank you so much for that. I do want to mention again, that all of this information and more is available in Simon's book. The proof is in the plants with so much more explanation and detailed information on the resources and everything. Since we talked about protein, I want to continue into soy. Is soy healthy, unhealthy. What about the estrogen effects? Does it give man boobs and all these things that we hear all the time? Can you please clarify that?

Simon Hill: 26:31

Great question. And one thing I'll tack onto the end of what I was just talking about too, to sort of give context to this because often people wonder, well, you know, what's the point of just eating plant protein and, and I just want to speak to the, to the science here from, from overall health point of view, we see very, very consistently swapping animal protein for plant protein reduces your risk of developing cardiovascular disease, reduces risk of type two diabetes. It improves health span and lifespan. so you know, what we're talking about here is making changes to live longer and live, live healthier for longer, you know, and, and that's why you know, that that? provides some context as well as of course the fact that plant protein is significantly better for our investors. We're facing huge challenges to face 10 to 11 billion people sustainably. and of course from, an ethical point of view, it's the more ethical option. so when you look through those three lenses of human health, planetary health and animal welfare, there is a very, strong case for choosing more plant protein over animal protein. And it's very very nice to know that those plants contain all of those essential minerals, acids, et cetera, soy soy is wow. Is there a more controversial food then soy, in the bar. I talk about all science not being equal and it's not. and so we can go onto Instagram and we can see two profiles. One profile is saying that is poisonous. Soy will negatively affect your hormones. Soy will give men feminizing effects. The other profile, we'll say that soy has been shown consistently or risk of heart disease, to improve cholesterol levels, to lower blood pressure and improve health overall. And that soy is a great source of protein, et cetera, et cetera. And if you were to look at these two, just on face value, you might just throw your hands up in the air and think, well, nobody knows. We've got one person saying this and one person saying this, I'm just going to opt out. It sounds risky. and I think that's where many people end up and I understand, but there is a thing called equivalents. False equivalents is when we look at two pieces of evidence and we assume that they are equal in terms of their stress. If we, if we dive a little deeper into this example, back on that first piece of evidence that I, that I spoke to that said soy causes feminizing effects et cetera. What kind of science is that coming from? Where are those claims built? I was very interested in understanding that for two reasons, one, I kept seeing it everywhere and everyone was asking me and two, I ate soy and I don't want to experience any of that. So you know, I had good reason to, to get to the bottom of it. So I thought, well, I'm going to look at what all of these, these claims are and what evidence they're using to substantiate that. And There's two types of evidence that is used to demonize soy. The first is animal studies and. Top-line animals studies. There are obviously huge ethical issues with these, but if we're looking from a scientific lens, they they are hypothesis generating at best, which then may lead to science conducted in humans, which we know is more rigorous and more reliable. We know that 90 plus percent of the time what happens in these animal studies doesn't happen. Doesn't play out in humans. So we have to be very careful pointing to that sort of research. But one of the main reasons why these studies can be problematic, Seb is exposure levels, and this is something in nutrition. Science. That's really important when we're looking at a food and trying to determine, is it healthy or not healthy is, well, what amount? What dose? What are we talking about here? And in these animal studies, the exposure level, and this, this is goes for soy, but it goes for many things, is so high that the equivalent, in terms of, let's say soy per kilogram of body mass. they equivalent speaking in terms of humans would be a level of soy consumption that would just never, ever occur. It would be so, so high that it's just unrealistic. So we can't use a study like that to suggest that would be what happens in humans. But although it could be hypothesis generating and might lead researchers to go, oh, that's interesting. Let's see what happens in humans. So we just have to realize that animal studies are not the, the type of science that is used to give human health recommendations. It's not. And the other study that tends to get cited by those demonizing. Is a case study, and this is one case study and a case study in terms of evidence. Hierarchy is right down the bottom. It's very very weak evidence. And it's weak evidence because like this one, it was a male that presented to his doctor and they take a history and then they write it up. But really, you know, I said, imagine you present it to your doctor and you, you gave an, a C your history. We don't know how reliable your history is. It's not a controlled environment, like an experiment. What else was, were you doing? I don't know. Anyway, this guy reported experiencing some some soreness around his nipple and his history in terms of his diet showed he was having equivalent of 12 cups of soy milk. And which is a lot of soy milk. Right. And, and it's not certainly not, something I would recommend. I wouldn't recommend 12 cups of broccoli or 12 cups of dairy milk you know, 12 cups of many foods. You may well have an issue. And, he came in and presented it and his doctor said, maybe stop having the soy. milk. And he did. And the sort of soreness around his nipples went away now. That's a case study it's N equals one. If that was all the science we had, then I could kind of understand that some people may say, Paul, let's take the precautionary approach here with soy, at least at 12 cups of soy milk a day, which again is a ridiculous exposure level. But it's not, it's not, and it's, it's far from it, so, okay. That's that post on social media, trying to scare you from soy, but then over here on the other, on the other post, you have a post saying that actually soy does not negatively affect hormones and cause feminizing effects. Well, what science is that built on? So I can tell you, 2020, there was a meta analysis of randomized control trials. These are human trials. These are not on rats. These are human trials with not just one human, like a case. Lots of humans. They were all adult males. And these are controlled feeding trials where you bring human humans in and you feed them soy soy foods, and you take their blood and you look at the effects on estrogen and you look at their effects on total testosterone and free testosterone. And so this matter analysis took 38 different clinical trials from all around the world. All different races, all looking at exactly this fade soy, what happens to hormone levels. These trials went from six weeks up to a year. So definitely long enough to pick up if there was going to be any issues. What did they find? No negative effect of soy consumption on hormone levels. So we have to then zoom back out and ask ourselves, do we trust that level of science? Or do we want to be crediting fear and basing our opinion off of rat studies or a N equals one case study where the exposure levels are far, far, far higher than we would never be exposed to in our everyday lives, eating foods, eating spicy foods. And of course, when it's explained, like that nine times out of 10 people go, wow, well, I'm going to trust the clinical trial data, looking at humans, but you know, online on social media you know, it can be hard to explain all of that.

Seb Alex: 35:28

definitely. And I think that. is one of the main issues with social media is that these platforms give anyone the power and influence that they can have. I mean, I've seen people who already follow very unhealthy plant-based diets and up getting deficiencies, getting sick, and then claiming they're no longer going to consume plant-based diets, and then quit that diet and people start following them and doing the same because they think, oh, well, if that happened to them, then it might happen to me, but they are not doctors. They are not nutritionists. They cannot should not spread that kind of information. It's really dangerous because they're so, they have such a big reach. I'm talking millions of subscribers and followers. So. That's one of the main issues with social media. I think it's really dangerous.

Simon Hill: 36:17

I was just going to comment on, you were talking about deficient developing deficiencies and you, you spoke about perhaps not adopt adopting the healthiest vegan diet, which you And I know that a vegan diet does not necessarily mean healthy. If it's a, if it's well-planned though, it is, it is up there with the healthiest diet in the world. Absolutely. You know, and I agree with you. I think it's, I think it's, disappointing to see someone who maybe didn't have a completely well-planned diet and had, a bad experience. I think it is that's, that's disappointing to see. But I also think it's, it's disappointing when I, I see people perhaps you know, understating or undervaluing, the importance of planning for particular nutrients, because I don't see it as a downside to, to, to say, Hey, you know, you do need to appropriately plan. and and and an old diets really needed to be appropriately planned. and you know, I, I, I tried in the book in part three to really give the information to people, to make sure you're ticking all the boxes and that you, you optimize your plant-based diet to get best results.

Seb Alex: 37:26

I think that's something I've seen in both your podcasts and the book, which is your very clearly Propaganda free nutrition, propaganda, free information. You're not here to sell anything. You're not here by getting paid by a certain industry. You just looking at the science, the best science out there and sharing the information and based on the best science out there and what you have come across and what you've learned and seen. What can you say about cholesterol and healthy fats? Because I've seen a lot of contradicting studies. I've even seen studies, claiming cholesterol is not dangerous at all. And I mean, diet based cholesterol, not the one that's made by our bodies. What do we know in that area? Based on the science.

Simon Hill: 38:12

so I guess the reason why dietary cholesterol has had a sort of cloud over it and a bit of debate, and usually it comes back to eggs because they also rich in dietary cholesterol is, is that dietary cholesterol affects our cholesterol levels. So if we zoom back out, We know that having high cholesterol, particularly LDL cholesterol is a, an independent risk factor for cardiovascular disease, which is the leading cause of death in the world. And long story short, when we have raised LDL cholesterol levels in our blood, the longer that we're exposed to that, the more risk we are of developing atherosclerosis, which is the narrowing of our artery, the buildup of plaque, which can lead to a heart attack or to a stroke. And so there's always been some interest in, in terms of, well, what elements of our diet will increase our LDL cholesterol levels. And we know in order of, I guess, how large that they, the degree that they affect our, our cholesterol levels, saturated and trans fats. They are what Jack, our LDL cholesterol up the up. And when you think of such trite and trans fats, saturated fats tend to be in animal foods. They are also in coconut and Palm oil. But if you look at the average standard Western diet, most of the saturated fat that's coming in and the, and the excessive amounts of saturated fat that's, that's putting them well above the recommended levels is coming from animal foods, really dominated by red meat and dairy products and, and trans fats. We've, we've done a fairly good job at reducing in the food system over the last sort of 10 years, but there's still some work to be done. But they tend to come through ultra processed foods. So the saturated fats, trans fats. Jack up or LDL cholesterol the most, then the next is dietary cholesterol. so here's the thing with dietary cholesterol. dietary cholesterol and affecting our blood cholesterol is not a linear relationship. What I mean by that is as you eat more and more dietary cholesterol, it doesn't just keep jacking up your LDL cholesterol. So I'm going to try and explain this. So I do have an image in my book, but I'll try and explain it. What happens is it's what's called a non-linear curve or a non-linear relationship. Let's imagine you ate an egg. Okay. Let's imagine you have no dietary cholesterol in your diet at all, and you ate an egg. You will get a significant jump in your LDL cholesterol levels, and you will continue to get that job until about two eggs a day. And after you get above that sort of two egg, one and a half, two exits today, what happens is the receptors on the cells get separated. And at that point, you can Katie baiting dietary cholesterol, and it won't keep jacking it up. The saturated fat and other, other other trans fats in your diet will continue to, but dietary cholesterol won't. So there is a bunch of studies out there. What that means is if you test someone who's already jacked up on dietary cholesterol, and you just add a couple of extra eggs, you can show that doesn't make much difference. That's true. But if you go in reverse and remove dietary cholesterol back down to zero, you see it falls right off and it does decrease LDL cholesterol. And that non-linear relationship is is just so, misunderstood. It's completely misunderstood on social media. You will see people going in and grabbing a study that did exactly what I just said. Whether they comparing already a high dietary cholesterol intake with a higher showing that there's not much difference. And That is somehow an excuse to go and eat as many eggs as you'd like, that's, not the case. And if you look at the American heart association, and American college of cardiology, guidelines, And recommendations, it is actually to not eat eggs. If you have high cholesterol and well, who has high cholesterol? Well, over 50% of Americans over 50% of Australians that they have a cholesterol level that is considered high. The average cholesterol is sitting between 120 and 130 milligrams per deciliter, which is, which is high. So for the average person, you know, it should be no eggs in order to get your cholesterol down as low as possible. And then they recommend even for healthy people, it's, it's, it's a maximum of one egg a day. So this is much lower recommendations, then, you know, you would typically see, you know, online and, and what, even what many dietitians.

Seb Alex: 42:57

I can't believe that they use the science in such a tricky way, where what they're saying is kind of true because when they gave that person that extra cholesterol it didn't change, but they're not giving the full picture.

Simon Hill: 43:10

Yeah. And you see that quite a bit in study design. You can make a certain food look good depending on what you compare it to as well, you know, compared to what is another very, very important question. In nutrition science on that cholesterol. One said there was a great study, 2019 randomized controlled trial. I love this study, because what they did was they compared red mate with white mate with plant protein. So three different groups and they wanted to say what the effect is on LDL cholesterol levels, Yeah, four weeks, you would eat a certain way. So they had some people eating red meat, some people ate white meat some people eating the beans And then lentils, et cetera. And what would they saw was that there was not a significant difference between red and white mate, which was interesting. First of all, Because we assume that, chicken is far healthier than, than red meat, but from a cholesterol point of view, they didn't see any difference. And I should say they were looking at lane mates. So often people say, well, you're looking at, at, at fatty cuts of meat, lean meat, they actually had one arm of the study. We're looking at low saturated, fat, red meat, low saturated, fat, white meat versus plant protein. And it was the, as we would expect, it was the plant protein group whose cholesterol dropped most. And why? Well, because plant protein does not contain any dietary cholesterol. So even if you eat lean red meat and lean white meat, it's still coming with diet free class. Whereas if you're getting into plant protein, which is laying by definition in that it's low in saturated fat, it's also free from dietary cholesterol. So, you know, if, if your aim is to get your diet, your LDL cholesterol down, and you've been told that by your doctor, then absolutely. you want to be getting into a diet where, you know, most, if not, all of your protein is coming from plants.

Seb Alex: 45:15

all right. That's interesting talking about eating lean meat and all this stuff. There's one area where I personally don't have a lot of information and I really want to learn more about this. I see a lot of really impressive transformation. I mean, a physical transformation when I check the hashtags of carnivore and keto diets on Instagram. So there are people who are doing these diets and they are definitely getting the transformation that they're aiming for. Why is that happening? How is that happening? And what is the science saying about this today?

Simon Hill: 45:54

Okay. So what is the science saying? Next to nothing, because there's really no science on that, on that, way of eating a carnival diet, there is some science that doesn't look so great. And I'll speak to that, but I also, I would never deny that people are getting these results. They are, you know, they're definitely getting these results and why they're getting the results. Well, I mean, you know, that protein is very satiating. Protein fills you up. And so if you're eating a carnival diet, it does make sense. It's going to be high in protein, you know, that protein helps with muscle growth and strength. And we also know that if you're trying to lose weight, lose body fat, because it is satiating, it can help you eat less calories over the day. So I, I think if, if someone was training hard and eating an all meat diet, then yeah, I feel like they could get great. results, but we have to ask this question at what cost, At what cost, because there are some alarming things that stand out for me in the science. When I look at this way of eating, you know, above and beyond the fact that it is the most unsustainable diet for people to follow from planetary health reasons. I just can't believe that it's actually, there's a conversation about this way of eating, given what we face to feed 10 to 11 billion people. I just feel like it's such a privileged diet first and, foremost. And, and, and, you know, it's impossible to scale it up and feed the world that, so, you know, and, and of course from an ethical point of view, it's, it's disastrous. So, but from a human health point of view, yes, you can get result and maybe you can have a six pack and look ripped, but we got to remember, there are a number of ways that you can do that. And if we look at the daughter on, particularly on red mate concerns, You know, we know that red meat increases risk of colorectal cancer. We know that 50 grams of red meat even unprocessed meat day can increase his risk of cardiovascular disease by around 18%. And there are a number of reasons why red meat is rich in saturated fat. It contains Dodger cliff straws that we just spoke about. And nitro. So compounds, nitrates, the list goes on. what baffles may say is that within that sort of ancestral community, it's very much built around this, manly thing of eating animal products. And, If that was your position, if it was all about being manly, but you also want it to be by sorry. You wouldn't eat red meat, you would eat salmon. I'm so surprised that they're not all just eating salmon. I don't get it because at least that would be a healthier choice. Again, not talking about planetary health and animal welfare. It would least be consistent with the science that shows consuming more polyunsaturated fats and less saturated fat is going to be better to your health, but they're not all out there sort of on the salmon bandwagon. So I don't quite understand it. I think keto movement is so intertwined with this paleo ancestral way of thinking that it's hard for them to be very scientific, right. And so, it's a weird movement. I feel like it seems like they're quite loud on social media, but I actually think it's a very, very, very small percentage of people that are moving in that direction too, to an old, animal based diet for the reasons that I just discussed. I think most people realize that's not going to be healthy longterm. It's going to set them up for some serious health issues. It's not going to be great for longevity or the longevity doctors and scientists out there are saying, let's ease up on animal protein, not let's double down on it. You know, all the environmental organisms, the FAO, the EPCC, they're all saying we need to eat less meat, not more. and of course, if we look around at the way we treat animals, why would we want to double down on this. You know, for me, I just, it's, a little bit mind boggling. But, I feel like the shift to more plant-based approaches is far greater and moving with far, greater pace. So I tend to not sort of focus too much on that these days.

Seb Alex: 50:07

I actually even saw posts by, let's say an influencer in that community appealing to the number of ingredients in a vegan burger. claiming that. it is unhealthy because look at how many ingredients it has a saying, like meat, and it's just one ingredient, you know?

Simon Hill: 50:23

that and the natural sort of fallacy of, well whatever's natural and whatever our ANSYS is, did his best. it's, you know, usually I say to someone, well, do you have air conditioning? Do you wear clothes? Do you, have you ever taken antibiotics? There are so many things in our life that would not be considered. Quote unquote, natural that I've actually improved our health and wellbeing. And what I think is most important is going to the science and looking at health outcomes, not what we think in our head is natural, natural equals best. But when we put, when the, when the rubber meets the road and we look at the science, What happens to someone's risk of cardiovascular disease? What happens to their risk of various cancers? What happens to their risk of obesity? What happens to the risk of type two diabetes dementia? We have modern science. Thankfully that's looked at all of this. Yeah. It's saying, Hey, more plants, less animals. It's super clear. And And I think in that movement, it's, it's hard for, for, for them to reconcile that information when they're so, married to this idea of natural equals better. And I often have some dialogue with people in that space who are a little more open to the science. And I say to them, look, if you want to adopt a keto genic diet, I get it. I get it. Maybe high fat for you feels best, but you can do that in a way where you're getting more of that fat from plant foods. And it's going to be unsaturated fats from avocados and nuts and seeds and tofu. And when you do that and you cut down on those animal products and you still follow that low-carb keto diet that you like, but you're doing it in a, plant-based way. Now, your marrying up the way that you like to eat from a macronutrient point of view with science and giving you all the self, the best chance of not just being ripped and feeling good today, but also being around to spend time with your family for longer.

Seb Alex: 52:26

yeah, I think that's one of the

Seb Alex (2): 52:29

main things that I really enjoy so far in your book is. Let's say you're concentrating on not only adding extra years to our lives, but also adding extra life to our years. So basically what we're living now, are we adding extra health to our years or are we just adding extra years and then living sicker longer? and that's something I think a lot of people that are going to benefit from, and Now, that we've covered most of the confusion that there is around all of this, I also want to concentrate on what you believe are the do's and don'ts when it comes to a plant-based diet. What do you think, or how do you think is the best way to go forward for people? And, and for me, for example, one of the biggest obstacles that I. To this day I struggle with is eating fried foods because I'm, I just love fried food so much. What is your stance on that? and what kind of advice do you generally have for someone who's listening to this And has not, let's say gone on a fully plant-based diet.

Simon Hill: 53:29

I think that there's, there's not a one size fits all approach here. I think some people in my experience have changed their diet overnight for whatever reason and have done extremely well. And they have they have the strength and, the discipline and the motivation behind that change to hold them to that. And they're often sailing. And then I think for other people they've perhaps tried that and failed and it is hard. So if that's happened to you again, We live in an environment that can make it very, very hard. And there's, social elements. There's cultural elements is there's a lot of things stacked against us to move in this direction away from the normal way of eating. So for someone who is probably not inclined to do so well on the over night thing, I suggest starting small and get some momentum, simple swaps is where I think people can really start to build some momentum. For me at the start, it was, you know, looking at, I looked at a meal that I was having consistently, which was a beef bolonaise and I looked at that one meal and I thought, how can I make this taste? But with plants. And it was as simple as learning a recipe that used lentils and walnuts and mushrooms to create a mince. And I remember looking at it and thinking, gosh, this is so weird. And I followed that recipe. I realized how simple it was and all of a sudden a meal that I was having three or four times a week, I had changed just by swapping out really the main ingredient And I kept everything else the same. And that gave me a lot of confidence because I was able to say, I didn't need to sacrifice flavor. I think that's a really big thing as well is you don't have to give up your joy for food. And when you're adding lentils or you're adding tofu, or you're adding Tenpay, if you just eat them out of the packet or the cans. I can understand that it might taste a little bland for people. And so you don't have to be hardcore, add some condiments, add some flavors that the flavor that is coming in, the chicken we ate or the beef, or even in the sushi roll is actually brought by everything that is around it. It's the marinade or it's the herbs and spices, or in the case of the sushi roll. It's the seaweed with the ginger, with the wasabi, and then you dip that into soy sauce. and when you sort of begin to make sense of that it becomes a lot less overwhelming and confronting because you can still bring the flavor to your meals and they go into be super enjoyable. So start small, realize that flavor is key and herbs and spices and condiments are going to be your, your sort of best friends there. and slowly but surely. You know, whether it's starting with one meal a day and then as you get confidence, or two meals a day, and then before, you know, it you're at three meals, a day thing you know, find that starting point that feels right for you. And is that right level of commitment for you? And I'm sure that as you're adding the great thing is as you're adding more of these new, you're going to feel better. You're going to feel better that your human making progress and you're moving in that direction. That feels right more or less aligned for you. But also those foods you're adding these whole plant foods, which will be fruits and vegetables, whole grains, legumes, nuts, and seeds. They're not just passive bystanders. These are, loaded with nutrition. And so From an energy point of view, if I tally sleep, you'll start feeling the benefit adding these into your diet and moving away from a standard diet. So, you know, that's, that's really, my, my main tips are take some pressure off start small. Focus on bringing in the flavor and uh, go from there.

Seb Alex: 57:25

All right. Thank you for that. And when it comes to consuming a plant-based diet, and ideally whole foods plant-based side, do you believe or not? I mean, you believe in what the science says. So based on what you know from the, science, what main supplements do you think people following a plant-based diet should take, if any

Simon Hill: 57:44

Great question. I don't see supplements as a downside or a negative. I see them as helping you optimize and successfully adopt this dietary pattern and feel at your best that's all I'm concerned about and also about what does the science show produces the best health outcome. And we know, for example, with a plant exclusive vegan diet vitamin B12 is something that you want to be conscious of And you will have better health outcomes. If you supplement with B12 and you can get B12 through fortified foods. There are a number of fortified foods, and I dare say in the next 10 years, what will happen is there will be an emergence of more and more B12 fortification in plant-based milks et cetera. And so it will be far less likely that someone ever experiences B12 deficiency. But for the moment, I believe the most reliable source of B12 is a supplement. And you can do it daily, which is a dose of about 200 micrograms, or you could do it twice weekly at about a thousand micrograms, or you could do it once a week at two and a half thousand micrograms in each of those ways are equally as good. And we'll make sure that your B12 levels are adequate. So that's B 12. I would say vitamin D three, and really this goes to anyone, not just plant based eaters, but if you're living in Northern latitude, away from sun and you don't get a lot of sun and Perhaps you have fair skin and you're quite mindful of being in the sun, which I get then vitamin D three supplementation, I think is particularly important and at a sort of dosage of a thousand to 2000 IU per day for most if you're living in an area where it's very sunny and you get regular Sonic exposure, then you can on your periodic blood test, you can do a vitamin D test on that. And if your levels are in the healthy levels, then you probably don't need to supplement. The great thing with vitamin D is even if you were at a healthy level and you supplement it with a low dose, like I just said, it's not going to take you into toxic territory. Th so that's beta 12 and day three. The other two, I would say that I want people to be mindful of is ID. identity particularly important for our thyroid health and production of healthy levels, thyroid hormones, which help regulate our metabolism. And we only need about 150 micrograms a day. It's a tiny, tiny little bit, and we've had issues with iodine sufficient iodine intake in the past. And that's why you will see. Iodized salt. And you'll see that in various parts of the world where governments have tasked, you know, manufacturers to do that fortification of iodine into salt to help kind of reduce the amount of iodine deficiency in a population. And that's certainly one option. You could buy iodized salt And about half a teaspoon a day on most brands gives sufficient iodine. If someone's on a low salt diet, maybe they have cardiova cardiovascular disease or high blood pressure, or that worried about their salt. There are other options. Seaweeds are very rich and I. And so rich that some of them actually, you want to stay clear of in terms of consuming too much like kelp is so, so rich that the, dosage amount is tiny. So be careful. with kelp. You can do it, but you have to be very careful. You're not overdosing because too much I had and it can be toxic. My recommendation is if you're going down, the seaweed route is dulse flakes or a wakame flakes. These are available at most Asian grocery stores now in most big grocery stores as well. And a really neat thing you could do is you can, I often just break them up And sprinkle them on top of a Buddha ball or you know, some sort of savory bowl. You can also equally, if you have a green smoothie, you can blend those in and you can't even taste that there, Well, you can put them into your pepper shaker. And so that every time you put pepper on your food, some of that comes out as well. Or the third option for someone who just thinks, well, I just want to make sure all my bases are covered is to take an iodine supplement, which is also completely fine. If that's the route you choose there's nothing wrong with taking an iodine supplement that offers about 150 micrograms a day. If you're pregnant, the prenatal supplements usually offer a little bit more cause the amount that you require goes up but that's the options for iodine. and I'm pretty sure that everyone can kind of navigate that space and work out is iodized salt is seaweed or supplement the best option for you. And the fourth one would be Amica threes. And I want to keep this simple, but often we hear about fish being very important for make a three intake and, fatty fish in particular like salmon or mackerel. They do contain DHA and EPA omega threes, which are a long chain omega-3, which are the bioactive omega-threes in our body that, that, that sort of get to work and produce the health benefits in plants. In most plants like certain nuts and seeds. We have a mega threes and there are called ALA and the body takes these ALA omega threes. And it actually converts them into DHA and EPA, the longer chain ones that are in the fish. Okay. So right now, as of today, the science suggests that as long as you're eating enough of those plant omega3s, you will convert enough DHA and EPA to have adequate amounts of those in your body. and so how much is that? Well, it's actually in terms of food is actually not a huge amount. And I like people to think about this as almost a supplement. And I'll use flaxseed as an example here for a male adult, you need to have about two tablespoons of flaxseed. a day two to provide adequate amounts of omega-threes and for a female about one tablespoon. So we're not talking about huge quantities here and equally that could be chia seeds as well. They're probably your two best. And so if you're choosing not to take an omega three supplement, you just want to be consistent with that. And making sure that each day, or as close to each day, you're trying to. To get at least that amount of flaxseed into your diet, and then remembering that other foods like hemp seeds and chia seeds and walnuts are also really good sources. So you might have an opportunity every morning on your oats where you can put lots of those on, and you will be making sure that your body is getting sufficient amount of omega threes. Now, sometimes I'm asked what about supplementing and there are supplements out there that are a direct source of DNA chain APA. And we know. That one of the, the, the most common supplements taken by omnivores is fish oil. It's a billion dollar industry. So it's not just plant-based eaters that are supplementing with DHA and EPA. The industry is built on omnivores and fish actually get their amiga threes by feeding on ours. So it comes up through the food chain and today, thankfully there are very sustainable ways of growing the micro algae away from these ocean systems that we can harvest and we can directly get the DHA and EPA out of the algae, out of the plant directly without having to affect the ocean ecosystem and fish supplies. And without the animal welfare issues. And so if you really want as an insurance policy, a direct souls of, of these long-chain DHA and EPA omega threes, there are number of brands online. Now you can go to iHub and go onto Amazon and search algae oil, DII, APA, and you'll find a bunch of brands on there. So, there are again like iodine with a mega Fraser. there's a few different options for April sort of depending on, you know, where they sit and, and, and what they would like to pursue.

Seb Alex: 1:05:55

all right. Amazing. I actually do add flax seeds in my morning, milkshakes, and I've read that I have to, it's better to grind them up for better absorption as well. Right.

Simon Hill: 1:06:06

Yep. Absolutely. Same with chase it's actually. Yep. That's a good point.

Seb Alex: 1:06:10

All right. I need a better blender for that. Chia seeds are not easy to grind as easy as flax. It's. All right. I have a question regarding something you mentioned about. Some supplements. If you take more of them, you're not entering toxic territory, but some of them you are on the top of your head, which ones are better to be careful with in order to not get to that point.

Simon Hill: 1:06:35

Okay. Sure. So the omega threes, you're not going to have any issue with that. They're they're fats. And most of the brands will be about 500 milligrams to a gram. Anywhere in there is completely fine. For B12, it's going to be very, very hard to get to a toxic level but just stick to those levels that are recommended. There's no need to take more on that. For iodine is one you want to be careful of. So 150 micrograms a day is what you should be targeting a little more if you're pregnant. You definitely don't want to be jacking that one up too high. The other one, just to be careful of is. Selenium can be toxic if over consumed. I like to recommend Brazil nuts for selenium, and you only need about one or two a day. I actually look at Brazil nuts almost as a supplement. So you could throw one or two into your smoothie, or if your kid is not allergic to nuts, it might be a snack for them. Or you could just have them as a snack yourself, but you don't want to be having handfuls and handfuls of Brazil nuts because you're, you will be consuming too much selenium you know, those, those are the main ones. The other one is iron. I think you, you may want to be careful supplementing iron, particularly if you don't have low iron levels. And some people do get sort of nausea or stomach upset if they're consuming too much iron through it, through a supplement. So those are the main ones to, to sort of just be aware.

Seb Alex: 1:08:04

So one other topic that I find really, really interesting in the book is how the food industry functions and how the health industry functions and the education industry. They're all kind of one under one big, that's a model. They're all doing the same thing. When it comes to lobbying and marketing and placing the foods in the right places, in the supermarkets. What can you share with us about that?

Simon Hill: 1:08:29

Yeah, it's fascinating. The, the food environment, the way that the food environment shows up, which is what our service stations look like, what our school canteens look like, what our hospital you know, kiosks look like a hospital menu looks like what our grocery stores look like dictates what we do. And in many ways we are puppets. So there is very careful activity that is going on to construct a food environment that leads us down the path of the dietary choices we're making. We like to think that it's all about free choice, but this is very carefully orchestrated. And in fact, there is a number of published papers that talk exactly to this. and there is a term used to describe this called. One of the terms is corporate political activity, CPA, And it's essentially a playbook or a strategy that the food industry uses not too dissimilar from tobacco or from gambling industries that creates an under-regulated market and a market that is maximizing profits. And they go about this in a, number of ways. Some w one of the whys is the marketing to children to showing up everywhere that shorter are to become a very normal part of their life. They can be the sponsorship of sporting organizations that children are watching and looking up to their idols or running around. watching professional football is. And the major sponsor is McDonald's. It can be the types of food and affiliations with the types of food in hospitals and affiliations with hospitals. For example, again, McDonald's is affiliated with a number of, of hospitals. It can be research set. It can be like Coca Cola has done for a long time conducted research to try and distract people from the real cause of obesity. And they're conducting research to suggest that it's a lack of exercise that is to be blamed for obesity and not an over consumption of hyper palatable ultra processed foods, such as their beverages. So it can be it can be the, the impact, the way our dietary guidelines are. impacted, you know, our dietary guidelines in Australia, they're not the worst in the world, but they were certainly impacted. And I write about this in the book. There were certainly impacted by the food industry and they could be clearer. They could be sharp, or they could be like health Canada who say specifically, choose plant protein over animal protein who are more clear on the reduction of ultra processed foods. And so, you know, what about the front of label package? The front of label front of packaging labels, I should say, in Australia, we have what's called a health, star rating system, which gives a food, a rating out of five now on face value. That seems like a really good idea, but the industry was very involved in the creation and design and formulation of that rating system. And so today I can tell you in Australia while not all fruits would get five stars, which is the highest rating. and at the same time, there would be packaged foods that are getting five styles, and there are inherent problems with that health star writing system. One of those For example, is that there is no differentiation between natural sugars and added sugars. and that is why certain fruits are penalized. So there was all of these things going on that are creating a food environment where people are eating more animal products and more ultra processed foods, less fruits And vegetables. And that is why today. And I'm speaking to Australia, but really this is representative of most Western countries today in Australia, 95% of people are failing to eat the recommended amounts of fruits and vegetables. 80% of people are consuming insufficient amounts of fiber. 42% of the average person's calories are coming from ultra processed foods. And about 70 to 85% of protein consumed is coming from animal protein. And really, we need to flip all of this on its head. So, you know, the book and the podcast Is great for reaching people on the individual. But we need some big changes from a government level level. And I know that you're going to be speaking to people that are in government positions. and I'm a big believer this is a you know, a multi-pronged approach. There has to definitely be education and giving people information that they, can act on before the food environment changes. That's really important because if we have this information, we can help people navigate it before it does change. But at the same time, we do need to have the right people in government, the right spokespeople who are creating a different food environment, a food environment that just shows up in a way when naturally people are making the healthy choice, the more sustainable choice and the more ethical choice

Seb Alex: 1:13:53

Wow. That's really the thing is we don't even think about these things. I've never thought about where products are placed in a supermarket. It's really interesting and

Simon Hill: 1:14:03

You know, just quickly on that sorry to interject the UK banned junk food at their checkout.

Seb Alex: 1:14:10

Wow.

Simon Hill: 1:14:11

Yeah. It's an incredible, it's incredible move. They're very progressive in the UK in many ways. And, so they bandit from checkout. So hopefully there'll be some healthy food now at the checkout. But we do know there's a big study that's been done showing that ultra processed or what we call junk food is on sale nearly twice as much as healthy food, which is a problem.

Seb Alex: 1:14:33

So you mentioned different approaches. And for example, having people in the government or different types of ways that we should try to change the system that we're dealing with, I want to talk a bit about your podcast, because one of the main reasons I started This podcast is to make people realize there's not one perfect or single way to raise awareness or be active and do impactful activism. I myself have been more involved with grassroots animal rights activism, but that doesn't mean that that is the only way. And when I came across your work, I realized, you know, most often in the top five or the top 10, depending on a country health category of the podcast, worldwide reaching so many people, I thought, wow, This is one specific way that a person has, decided to have an impact. Can you share with us for anyone? I mean, this could even apply to myself now that I think about it What were your obstacles And, what were main things that made you realize? Wow, I made some breakthrough today, you know, So success and obstacles. What are main things that you faced?

Simon Hill: 1:15:39

for me, I, for as long as I can remember when I was four or five years old coming home, I would always see Paul's and Paul's scientific papers. My dad has been in academic research looking at how do you vascular disease, type two diabetes and writing papers. and he's in the laboratory doing work you know, under a microscope level, learning about mechanisms for 30 plus years. and so I've always appreciated science and I've always loved learning the mechanisms, understanding the mechanisms, and I've seen it as something that's very powerful that can really help us all better navigate our lives and and improve the world hopefully. And so my whole idea around starting the podcast And writing this book. is built on my love for science and representing science very honestly. And what I've found Sarah is because I'm not prepared to over extrapolate and make crazy claims that I, calmed back up, that I found that people are engaged with the content and that they, they trust the content I'm putting out. And, I wouldn't have it any other way. I couldn't think actually about going about this and trying to, fool people, because I don't think we need to, you know, I'm myself. I don't eat animal products. for animal welfare and environmental reasons. And if it were purely just based on health, I could easily have a small amount of animal products in my. diet. I could, I think that it's hard from a justice science point of view to argue that a completely plant exclusive vegan diet is absolutely the healthiest diet without question. I think that's very hard to argue. And so I don't argue. I don't think I need to I think the science is strong enough to show that you can adopt a plant exclusive vegan diet and it can absolutely be super healthy and it can be one of a variety of diets that are quote unquote optimal. Absolutely. And I think, well, why would someone want to do that Well, it ticks all those boxes. It's not just for human health, it's for environmental health and it's also for animal welfare. And so, you know, I think just staying on us to that has served me. well. And, you know, It keeps me very interested. I think if I was taking a position of trying to distort narrative or distort the science or you know, over-represent things, It wouldn't be so fun. I love looking at the new science that's coming out and looking at what it genuinely teaches us. And, you know, I think that in terms of, of effecting the listener that genuine approach And authenticity is key. So everything that I've done from the start has been about that bang bout staying true to the science, staying honest and still not being scared to talk about my opinion on things outside of human health, like environmental considerations and animal welfare. But understanding that they are separate that you can look at the science, you need to look at the science objectives, separate to those pillars, but then you can come back and, look at everything together because when we make food choices, it's not just about our own health or for me. Anyway, personally, when I think of the food I'm putting on my plate, I'm thinking about how is it affecting MEI and how is it affecting the world around me? And, you know, so that's my approach. And kind of has been, I guess, my approach to activism and talking about all of this joining this conversation from the start.

Seb Alex: 1:19:42

all right. So that being said, what are, if any your future goals, is there anything specific we have coming? I mean, I know you've just launched the book and I've been seeing the reports, the amount of sales. Do you have a number by the way? Do we know how many books have been sold so far more or less?

Simon Hill: 1:20:02

I know it's in the tens of thousands. So it's quite, it's going very well. It's only launched in Australia at the moment. It was the number one selling book by sales And, its debut week, which was really incredible because that means there is an appetite for this information beyond just my community, which is amazing. And When I wrote it, I was thinking about the proceeds of this book. And I decided that all of the proceeds would go to a non-for-profit in Australia, which is run by a guy called Jimmy half-court. James Stanton cook is his full name. He has half a beard he has half a bead to represent half of the world's forest. Bang, clit, and he's fighting very, very strongly to help protect the Daintree rainforest, which is the oldest rainforest in the world is super rich in biodiversity. There's so many plants and animal species that, that call that home. And we worked out that with each book sold, we can save two square meters of the, rainforest. So who knows how much we'll end up saving. But it goes out at launches in America, in November one and the UK and through Europe, September one. So it's been a bit of a soft launch, I guess, in Australia. And we'll, we'll see what happens.

Seb Alex: 1:21:19

a self launch with tens of thousands of books sold. I'm going to be linking the book in the description for anyone who's interested to grab a coffee. Simon, is there any last word that you wish to share with the listeners?

Simon Hill: 1:21:35

Oh, just I'm grateful that they've, they've shared this time with us. Thank you for hanging out with both of us. I love this guy. Super proud of what you're doing, Really looking forward to seeing your show grow prosper. I know that it absolutely will, and it's going to create so much positive change throughout the world. So well done on going ahead and pushing ahead and getting started because that's the hottest pot, right. And you've done that now. So I'm really excited to see how that grows and yeah, if the listeners have enjoyed this, then, you know, and they don't seek of my voice. I'd love for them to listen to, to, to my various episodes. And they could find me on social media as well. If they want to ask any questions, I'm always around to try and help as many people as I can.

Seb Alex: 1:22:22

and that being said, thank you again so much not only for this, but also for inspiring me to start this. And I'm sure I'm not the only one you've inspired in many ways, whether that is by adopting a plant-based side, becoming vegan for ethical environmental or health reasons, but also by getting active and raising awareness Simon until we meet again, hopefully in another episode. Thank you so much.

Simon Hill: 1:22:46

Thank you, sir. I appreciate you really, really enjoyed this.

1:22:50

I

Seb Alex: 1:22:51

hope you enjoy it. Listening to this conversation as much as I did when I had it with Simon. I really recommend you all check out his podcast and also get his book. If you can. There is so much to learn from all the episodes that he uploads and also all the information that he shares in his book. What you heard today is probably less than 10% of what you can learn from Simon. I very often listened to his episodes. Mostly when I'm walking or cycling. And I've learned so much, and it helps me so much in my advocacy for animal rights and plant exclusive diets. If you enjoyed this episode, I would really appreciate it. If you can subscribe and also leave a review on whichever platform you're using. That always helps new listeners to check out the episodes and the content that I'm sharing with you. If you would like to get exclusive early access to the episodes, make sure to check out the links below to support this podcast on Patrion, I'm extremely grateful of any financial support that I get. as it helps me continue my work. As an MRIs activist and continue creating online content. If you wish to learn more about what I do, check out my websites of alex.org, Where we can also get yourself my free book when animal rights and logic meet in 20 languages. If there's one thing I can ask from you all is to share this episode with at least one friend or maybe on your social media platforms.

1:24:15

You might know someone who can learn a lot from the information that Simon shared in his episode,

Seb Alex: 1:24:21

And I hope that by sending them this, they can consider switching to a plant exclusive diet and also learn more about veganism and animal rights. I hope you enjoyed the first ever episode. I have so many more amazing guests that I have interviewed I can't wait to share them with you. And until the next episode, keep in mind the actual power of the individual.