Political Activism with Emma Hurst

In the fourth episode of the Principles of Change podcast, I sit down and discuss activism within the political context with Australian MP and animal rights activists, Emma Hurst. Emma shared her obstacles, the importance of vegan activists in politics, her achievements, the details about how the system in place is set to fail the animals and most importantly, her core principles that push her to fight for change.

In Today's Episode:

• Emma's Background
• From Vegan to Politician
• The Animal Justice Party
• Passing Legislations
• Emma's Experience With Sexism In Politics
• Obstacles In Political Activism
• Advice From Emma
• Emma's Famous Speech 
• Emma's Principles Of Change

Check out Emma's Website: https://www.emmahurstmp.com

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Transcript

Intro

Emma Hurst 0:00

the whole system has been set up to fail. So I think the first step is recognizing where that system is, but also starting to shake that system and get people to recognize that that system, as it's being set up is problematic because that's not what the community think. you know, you go out to somebody in the community and you say, you know, do you think that your dog is a piece of property? most people would say, absolutely not. So we need to hold the parliament to account for the way that it's already been set up to fail animals. And we need to start to change that.

0:33

That was Australian M P I'm a Hearst. And this is the third episode of the principles of change podcast My name is Alex and I'm the host of this show. I'm an animal rights activist, lecture and author of the ebook. When Adam. The rights are logic meat. Which you can download in 20 languages for free on my website. Set alex.org.

Seb Alex 0:54

The aim of this show is to motivate you to get more active and find in what way you can each personally make this world a better place. During my past seven years of activism journey, I realized that a lot of people that sometimes friends feel very limited in what they can do in order to help other animals, environmental protection or other social issues. And in my own journey of learning from other activists, I realized that so many amazing game changers have found countless creative ways to make this world a better place. I invite these amazing individuals and chat about what they do, their journeys, tactics, and advice. My goal is to finish each episode by making you realize the incredible power of the individual and remind you. That there is no one perfect way of activism. Finally, if you wish to support this podcast, I would really appreciate it. If you can subscribe and leave a review, And if you'd like to support it directly and have access to early and exclusive episodes, please make sure to check the Patrion link provided below.

1:51

Today's guest is Emma Hurst. Am I as an Australian psychologist and politician and the new south Wales parliament as part of the animal justice party. I have been personally following Emma's work for the past two to three years and have always been so amazed at all the accomplishments and achievements on the level of legislation. As an activist. I always wondered how it would be like speaking up about animal rights in parliaments and governments in politics, fighting for change and putting in new laws and regulations to make sure that other animals are respected. It all seems so impossible and complicated to me. So I thought. Why not invite someone who has the experience in that field and shared their work with you all. In the hopes of encouraging you to consider getting involved in politics in your fight for a better world. As you will hear Emma herself started as a grassroots activist before she got involved in politics. So if you come from the same background as I do. I hope you will find the same inspiration and motivation that I did after listening to AMAs words. Thank you for joining, please. Don't forget to subscribe or follow this episode I won't make you wait any longer. I'll see you on the other side.

Seb Alex 2:59

Emma, thank you so much for making time for this. I really appreciate it. And I'm sure all the listeners will as well before we get into it and all the work that you're doing. I want you to please give us a small background or story of how you personally became.

Emma Hurst 3:17

So I take my story all the way back to when I was quite a young child. And I remember I was holding a hand in my arms and the head was pairing. And I remember thinking that this hand is showing joy and the same way as my cats at home showed joy, we have. Three rescue cats when I was quite young and I remember going home and I wrote a letter to my parents and I said, Uh, you know, if I can't get my cat, then I can't eat these hands. and you know, it just dawned on me in that moment that, you know, we were actually eating animals and that animals had the capacity to feel joy and pain and fear. And. My parents would have said, look, that's fine. you know, you're got to eat a lot more vegetables. So, I mean, I was sort of turned away from meat at a very young age, but I was also a naive vegetarian for a very long time. it was many years later that somebody simply handed me a flyer on the street and I went home and looked. What was happening in the egg industry and the dairy industry with now, Bobby cows being taken from their mothers, with day old male chicks in the egg industry being masqueraded. and it was just like the lights went on and I, I knew I had to change. I just went vegan overnight and read everything that I could about the topic. And, you know, I really knew in that moment that I wanted to dedicate my life towards trying to change what was happening to her.

Seb Alex 4:45

Wow. That's amazing. So you really made that connection really, really early on. And how old were you when you became.

Emma Hurst 4:52

I was at universities, so I think it was about 20 or 21 years ago. I'm 40 now. So it's been quite a long time. but I haven't actually tracked it. So, you know, when people say, you know, when's your, vegan anniversary and I don't actually know it's been so long, but roughly about 2021.

Seb Alex 5:12

Wow. Great. could you tell us also how you went from being vegan to realizing you want to get active, to ending up in politics?

Emma Hurst 5:21

Yeah. So I was studying education at university at the time. And when I started to really open my eyes to this, I knew that. You know, the human caused animal cruelty needed to have a human based solution. Humans needed to change their behaviors. So I switched into psychology and I did my masters in health psychology, which is about mass behavior change. So how do we get people to. Where their seatbelts, how do we get people to quit smoking? And I wanted to learn these strategies so I could take it into my animal activism. And I started working at a charity in new south Wales called animal liberation. And I was the campaign director for about 10 years. And I've also worked at people for the ethical treatment of animals. As they media, officer and I also worked for wild animal protection international as well. And I actually worked in campaign mobilization. So assessing campaigns and seeing how effective they are at actually changing people's behaviors. So that's how I really got into it. And I worked a lot. Individual change, trying to encourage people to change their personal behaviors. but also working in that corporate space and getting corporations to actually adopt animal friendly policies. my former colleague at animal liberation was the first member of the animal justice party elected in parliament here in Australia. And he approached me in the next election. He said, would you consider actually running for parliament? And so I really had to ask myself the question, you know, where am I best placed to help animals? And I could see that there are so many wonderful organizations and so many activist groups that are doing great work, you know, going out onto the street, talking to people, handing out flyers, putting up television screens, having those conversations and individual change was happening quite quickly, particularly here in Australia. Well, one of the fastest growing vegan markets in the world, and I could see great corporations, corporate chains as well through a lot of these activist groups. But then you look at politics and you look at what was happening there. We had a ban on Greyhound racing, which the government back flipped on. We temporarily stopped live export after major cruelty was exposed and it was opened up again. And the government's pushing to open up more live export markets, despite numerous expo eyes of extreme animal cruelty. And it was just like that political landscape was nowhere where the community is, and it didn't match community expectations on animal protection and it didn't match where society was moving to. So I knew it was a really uphill battle, but we just needed as many voices in that political space as we could get. And that's why I decided to write.

Seb Alex 8:03

That's amazing. The, former colleague you mentioned, is there any chance that is, Andy? I forgot his last name. Is that him?

Emma Hurst 8:10

No, Andy Medicus in pain, Victoria,

Seb Alex 8:13

All right. Okay.

Emma Hurst 8:14

and we got another MP in new south Wales. Might Pearson.

Seb Alex 8:18

right. Cause I met, Andy around two or three years ago. How many MPS are there currently in the.

The Animal Justice Party

Emma Hurst 8:25

So we have three MPS. So it's Andy, mark, and myself. And we also have to counsel as, as well, in the last Victorian council elections. And in December this year, we've got more councils in new south Wales. So we're hoping to increase the number of counselors we get.

Seb Alex 8:40

That's really great. tell us what is the main mission of the animal justice party in the simplest way?

Emma Hurst 8:47

Yeah. So we were founded in 2009 and it really came out of this growing frustration that nobody in parliament was representing the needs of animals. and you know, you can really say that just from failures that the government was, you know, Nothing was happening, for animals. and nobody was a voice for animals in parliament. And so that's where the animal justice party started from. And really we want to get in there and be the voice for animals. and so we work on animal issues, but we also work on environment and people, and we recognize that, you know, we need, you know, we need people and animals and the environment to work together.

Seb Alex 9:28

That's true because when it comes to ethics and justice, it does apply to every being and also the environment in which a lot of those beings live in. Could you also explain a bit How is it to work in such a field when we are in such a species of society where animals are seen as nothing but resources.

Emma Hurst 9:47

It's a hard. Position to start from because obviously our law has been set up. I mean, in, in Australia, animals are considered property under the law. and that's problematic to begin with. You know, our entire legislation is built around the use of animals and the animal protection portfolio here falls under the minister for agriculture. Who's. Primary purpose is to look after animal agribusiness industry. So, you know, the whole system has been set up to fail. So I think the first step is recognizing where that system is, but also starting to shake that system and get people to recognize that that system, as it's being set up is problematic because that's not what the community think. you know, you go out to somebody in the community and you say, you know, do you think that your dog is a piece of property? most people would say, absolutely not. So we need to hold the parliament to account for the way that it's already been set up to fail animals. And we need to start to change that. So the way I work, I suppose I work in two spaces. I work in a space where I know I can get legislation passed. so I work in areas where the government has neglected major areas of animal protection and really lift up and elevate. the recognition that we need to actually protect animals. And that could be anything from increasing the penalties for animal abuse, to also working in the space of recognizing the link between violence, towards animals and violence towards people. And obviously with my psychology background, I can bring a lot of that in. and so some of the legislation that we're looking at right now, around working with children's checks, so who can actually go and work with children. And so I'm trying to increase the bar to say that if you've abused an animal, if you've been found guilty of abusing an animal, you shouldn't be working with children. and that's recognizing that link. So it elevates the animal rights issues. and the other area I work on is the things that nobody in parliament has ever even considered. So we're working on a. A piece of legislation at the moment that would outlaw speciesism and really the whole idea there is to actually push that bar. So to actually be in parliament and table legitimate legislation and say, no, no, we need to consider this and we need to debate it. And it's really. Putting it on the table because every idea is crazy when somebody first suggested, but we need to be there to put it on the table, and get those conversations starting. and that's where we start to move the bar and get people thinking outside the current regime that we have, that, that is clearly failing in animal protection.

Seb Alex 12:28

Alright. And for those who don't really understand how politics works and how the legislation process works, once you put out a legislation, do the people still have a certain power? Can people go and vote yes or no for it? Or is it just up to the politicians? Because in Switzerland they have these where they put out in as legislation or as an idea, and then the people have to go and vote or against. How does it work In

Emma Hurst 12:55

In Australia, it's up to the politicians. so there are a couple of, of issues where they will put it out quite publicly to, for people to vote. but it's very expensive to do that process. so essentially here in new south Wales and right across Australia, if I table legislation, I can put that up for debate and then everybody within that parliament then votes on it. So, again, sort of going back to that whole idea of sometimes putting things up that will pass and start to push that across. one aspect we're looking at right now is, puppy farming. So the intensive factory farming of dogs. And so we can get. The numbers potentially, even if we don't have government support for legislation. and of course, you know, you go out and you get media attention on the piece of legislation that you're going to put up and you try to build the numbers to, really highlight the issues. So. you know, there's lots of good ways you can get legislation. I mean, we're not just bound by legislation. A lot of the things that we do are amendments to government bills. So if the government puts up a bill, they put up, a bill around, around strata recently. And so we put up an amendment that would stop strata bylaws from forcing animals out of people's homes. we had a case during the last COVID lockdown. Where an elderly man who owned his own property, but he was part of a strata complex, was tall that the bylaws had changed. No animals are allowed in the entire building and he would either have to sell his house and leave during the first few weeks of a cupboard lockdown or get rid of his lifelong companion. so. Hideous things like that. We needed to sort of put that amendment through him and we got the numbers to pass it. which can be a really effective strategy as well.

Seb Alex 14:43

All right. And just to make sure strata is for example, when you rent a place and then they changed the law, or what is exactly

Emma Hurst 14:53

it could also be anybody that owns an apartment in an apartment block, or owns a townhouse in a townhouse block. So essentially strata is just, the overseeing body, when you've got people living together in one space.

Seb Alex 15:08

All right. Okay. would it be fair to say that even though, obviously you're fighting for all animals sometimes to get right amount of support, you need to. For example, choose, dogs or other companions that we have, because we know that there's a lot of public and political support already just to get that passed. W would it be fair to say that that sometimes we have to do those things

Emma Hurst 15:31

Yeah, look, I mean, to get things past that, the areas that we're looking at, you know, you had dogs, cats, companion, animals. we also got a whole lot of, legislative changes around domestic violence and animal abuse. are tougher penalties changes that we've got through cover all animals, but it covers, you know, animal, animal cruelty. and of course, hearing new south Wales in Australia, we have exemptions for farmed animal cruelty, which is, which is quite hideous. it's something that we're working on as well to bring through parliament. I think the hardest. Place to get changed in parliament for farmed animals and for introduced animals. it's really hard to get the numbers for the support for those animals. of course, the animals that we will continue to fight for. and we will continue to put legislation up because it's about pushing that bar. but it's also about. This whole system and how it's been set up to fail those specific animals. And of course, because it's been set up to fail, farmed animals and introduced animals, it's failing other species of animals as well. and so where we can lift up the legislation and the protections around other animals, we need to also ensure. In whatever way that we can, that other animals aren't excluded from that. and so it's, it does make it hard, but it's also really important that where the voice for those animals in parliament, because nobody else is speaking on their behalf.

Emma's Experience With Sexism In Politics

Seb Alex 16:59

Yeah, that's fair. And I've been following you for a while and you did put up, a list of the amazing achievements that you've had so far. And one of them was the eight fold increase in penalties for animal abuse, and another was animals as victims of domestic violence. I mean, that is great work. And I can't imagine other political. Fighting to achieve such things to continue in this subject. how has your experience so far working in this field as a woman? Because I said, since I've been following you, I also see sometimes how people comment or even the messages you get sent. So if you could also talk to us that kind of interaction, but also interaction you have with other politicians in your workplace, how does it work?

Emma Hurst 17:44

It's interesting. Most of the abuse that we get is online. so, yeah, I do get, quite a lot of trolls and quite a lot of difficult comments. And I mean, on the other side as well, I often get, Facebook messages saying, will you come out on a date with me as well? So we get some sort of strange. Messages. And when I speak to the two male MPS, they don't get the same. they also don't get the number of death threats that I do rape threats that I do. they certainly not getting asked out on dates. It's, it's just this sort of bizarre position. And I think that, I think it almost comes from a belief. I mean, the people that are attacking me, I usually the people that are, being cruel to animals. And so I think that there's almost. A target on women. There's almost this belief that as a female politician, We can come after you and, and you'll get frightened and you'll go away. So it's, it's yeah. I'm not quite sure how to explain it. I can't get into the heads of these people. it's really quite awful. And, you know, I have, we get two staff members. So my whole team is three of us. We're all female. And so my team are often going through my Facebook messages and they're having. You know, a lot of what comes through on there as well. and then you go on Facebook. I remember I posted a Facebook post about domestic violence and my history of being a victim of domestic violence. And one of the posts was like, get out of politics here. You are, get, you know, stick your nose in something, get beaten up and start crying about it. You need to get out of politics and you just think this is somebody also just posting a comment. On an actual Facebook post. so it's really quite vital, but at the same time, you know, I've been involved in this space for so long that in another way, it almost encourages me to continue because I look at those sorts of comments and I think. These are the people that are harming animals. These are the people that we need to strengthen our laws them. and of course that's why we're looking at domestic violence and that's why we're looking at tougher penalties. we also got banned. for people who from having and working with animals, for the rest of their life, if they're charged under the crimes, act for animal cruelty and it's so important, and they're the people that will be affected by that. And of course, those type of penalties, that's animal bands, the domestic violence legislation that covers all animals. so that would include fond animals as well.

Seb Alex 20:13

All right. I'm really sorry to hear that. I can, I can't even imagine how horrible that is. Would you be comfortable to also share whether or not, and if then, how, you also have similar experiences in the parliament. Obviously I'm not talking about death threats or things like that, but do you feel that when you bring up a subject as a woman, other politicians who might be man, just look down to you, like. Here comes the woman with her stuff. Do you ever have that kind of sexist interactions as well?

Emma Hurst 20:42

Not generally actually. and I think it's kind of just a very different space because you kind of thrown in, it's almost, you know, it reminds me of going back to school where you get thrown in with a group of people who are. So different to you. but we're kind of stuck with each other. but I haven't personally experienced it, although I have spoken to other women within parliament and they have had more experiences with it. so I'm not quite sure what that is or why. I mean, certainly there's some really varying personalities, within parliament, particularly in the upper house where we are, you know, where we've got the animal justice party and then the shooters party. and then we've got a greens party, which is focused on environment. and then we've got, you know, hard-right conservative parties as well in there. So. You know, there's a real varying of personalities. most of the aggression that we experience, is via social media and email rather than actually within the parliament. So I've been lucky in that instance.

Obstacles In Political Activism

Seb Alex 21:43

All right. Well, that's relatively better. Let's say. would you mind sharing some of the biggest obstacles that you've had in your activism? Political activism, mainly

Emma Hurst 21:54

Yeah, look, I think some of the biggest obstacles really are, you know, the, the strength of the lobby groups that are already working in that animal agribusiness space. So, you know, these people are. a very well-funded, they've had very long built relationships with these political parties and something I got quite surprised about when I actually went into parliament, was that whenever an animal issue came up, there was nobody lobbing for the animals in Australia and new south Wales. And for every other issue that we've had to debate on where there's been legislation. Someone's knocking at the door. They want to talk about it. Now, if it's transport or a health issue, there's always groups, people bringing somebody around to talk to you about it. but when it was animal issues, it was just the agribusiness industry that was lobbying and knocking on people's doors. And, you know, like it's almost like it's only been their voice and that's problematic. and it's a real obstacle to overcome because. You know, it's this, you know, going back to this whole idea of the system and how the system has been set up to fail, to give you an example, how it's failing in new south Wales, and I've spoken to people around the world, and they've said, that's exactly the same as what's happening here. So we've got our agriculture minister with the portfolio for animal protection. What we need is a minister with the ministry of animal protection that is separate from the agriculture portfolio. Then, so he is because he's focused is, is protecting animal agribusiness. It's almost impossible to get legislative changes for certain species of animals as we've just been discussing. there's very weak legislation as it is. And then they create exemptions for animal agribusiness. So, you know, you don't even have to provide pain relief if you're cutting off a large chunk of flesh, around a sheep sinus, for example, which is a procedure that happens a lot in Australia called musing. so you've got all. Hideous exemptions. And then you've got an enforcement agency, which is a private charity who does the majority of enforcement for these weak animal protection legislations. So. animal protection is the only piece of legislation in this country that is not fully funded by the government. And so the charity gets about 6% of funding towards their enforcement agency, and then they have to fund. From the public to actually uphold the law. So if you think about the police having to do a fun run to raise enough money to investigate drug labs, I mean it's an absurd model and that's exactly what's happening here in Australia. And I know what's happening around the world as well, where private charities are having to raise the money to prosecute and uphold. what weak legislation we already have. And so, of course, we're getting constant complaints that these charities aren't going out and investigating certain cases. And of course, the authority to actually inspect and prosecute is also signed off by. The agriculture minister. So as soon as these private charities going to the agriculture sector and start to investigate there and prosecute farmers, the farmers become furious. They go to their minister and they say, take their prosecution, power was away. so that's always hanging over there. So, you know, the whole system is a mess, but our job is really to kind of really pull this out and expose it and get the other political parties that we've got in parliament to start to consider how messed up the system is and why the system keeps failing and what the alternative is. And we need to keep fighting for that. So we need to keep fighting for an independent office of animal protection. commissioner for animal protection, a separate ministry for animal protection, you know, all these sorts of changes and then once that structural system is changed, then we'll start to see some major changes through parliament.

Seb Alex 25:59

Yeah, I can imagine I've been reading a book called the proof is in the plants by Simon hill. He runs the podcast, plant proof podcast, and he's based in Australia. And he was talking in the book about how in the food environment, basically, that's what he talks about. And he mentions how lot of politicians while they're in power. They're probably. Jobs in that animal agriculture industry when they finished their term in the parliament. And vice-versa, it's always like going from one to the other and it's the same people. So of course they're going to help each other out. And just, as you mentioned, even if that charity comes and find something they're going to go to the person who's protecting them. So it's just a loop basically. by the way, the charity is that our SPCA or something similar? Yeah.

Emma Hurst 26:47

honest PCA here.

Seb Alex 26:48

they only get 6% funding from the government and all the rest they have to.

Emma Hurst 26:53

6%. So as is the lowest in every state and territory. we also have another problem and I think that this is the same in the U S as well, where we've got some electorates with a very small number of people who will vote for a representative of their electorate, but they're heavily farming based electorates. So their representatives often. You know, represent that animal agribusiness industry. and that's where it becomes really difficult to get any political potty to talk against the animal agribusiness industry and the environmental damage that they're doing and the animal cruelty that's involved in it. And the health issues. Everybody's fighting for those electric seats. And so no political party wants to take on the industry because they know then that they won't be able to win that specific electorate. And that's another major problem that we've got and we've also got. In Australia, we've got a minor party, called the national party and they will never win enough party enough states to actually win government. But they've created a coalition with the liberal party. Now, the national party, designed to represent animal agribusiness. So they've joined with the liberal party and that gives the liberal party. Votes to win parliament. And essentially it's like they're trading off animal protection laws to win government and then the national party. So out at the Australia, Minister for agriculture is a national party MP. And in new south Wales, the minister for agriculture is a national party MP. so they actually represent the animal agribusiness industry. so it's more than just being offered jobs. They've often had jobs in that space prior to even being elected.

Seb Alex 28:40

Wow. That's really, it it's like a setup. as you say, it's it's designed to fail. The animals. Has the animal justice party been, able to form any coalitions, or get support from other political parties, such as the green party.

Emma Hurst 28:56

Absolutely. Yeah. So look, we've, I mean the greens party is very heavily focused on the environment and very heavily focused on human rights, which is fantastic. And often we sit in a very similar space to them, the animal justice party really came. and formed in 2009, because of the frustration that the greens weren't working in the animal protection space. then there was also subsections of the grains that were, you know, having policies or pushing for things, which involved animal cruelty. So, in the act the greens were pushing for, to shoot kangaroos, here in new south Wales, they're very anti introduced. Animals. and so while we recognize that in some circumstances, we may need to reduce the number of introduced animals that we only support non-lethal means and humane methods remove animals from a certain location. So it might be. providing sanctuary for horses in coziosco park, national park and moving them into a sanctuary if there's too many, or perhaps doing some kind of fertility control to reduce the number of animals that are breeding in an area. whereas. The greens are more likely to support aerial shooting or taking the animals to advertise. and we will never support that. So we're pulling on the science and looking around the world where fertility control has worked and saying that, you know, these lethal means they don't work. if they had worked, they would have worked by now because. People have been using lethal means for a very long time, all around the world. and poisons. 10 80 poison is used extensively in Australia. I mean it takes 72 hours for the animal to die and they're having convulsions and fits. And so they're often screaming and crying and pain for 72 hours. and this is a poison with no antidote either. So. Any animal that ingests that will die this horrific death. and it's a risk to human beings as well. because there is no antidote and because it's so highly poisonous, that's why it's been banned most places around the world, but it's still being used a lot in Australia and New Zealand. so that's where we differ from the grains quite extensively.

Seb Alex 31:06

Yeah, that's interesting because I get a lot of, let's say hunters or people who are pro hunting. We'll say like, we're helping to control the population, but like you're not. And if you did care about the animals, the problem is that there's not enough funding or even interest to get funding, to try other methods such as fertility control or putting them in sanctuaries to change the conversation and make it a bit more Could you share with us. One of your first accomplishments or victories or the most important ones are the most powerful ones that you've had.

Emma Hurst 31:40

one of my, one of my really good wins was, we got a ban on the solicitations for entertainment here in new south Wales. so this followed on from an inquiry, which we managed to get up into the use of animals and entertainment. So, actually before I got into politics, when I was working for wild animal protection, that was another campaign that we were working on was, you know, dolphins being forced to perform humiliating circus style tricks in dolphinariums all around the world. So, we did an inquiry and, we also got a whole lot of regulations through that. Essentially stop the breeding of more animals into this industry, and ensure that no animals can actually be imported into new south Wales for the same purpose. So that actually means we've got one state left in Australia that is still breeding these centered animals for entertainment, in Queensland for SeaWorld. and. You know, being able to make that change in new south Wales, we had one dolphinarium in new south Wales. We're now looking at. the possibilities of building a sea sanctuary for those animals to actually retire them out of the industry. so it really sort of starts to build that global momentum. And certainly we worked with, we even met with one of the politicians in Canada that got. The breath, the band there as well, while we were working on this campaign. So that was a really big one. the, when around domestic violence and animal abuse, so we got animals recognized as victims of domestic violence, but we also got animals listed onto apprehended, domestic violence orders. So when somebody goes in to get an order from the police, the victim can actually ask that. the perpetrator, you know, doesn't come anywhere near them, that they leave certain property alone, but now an animal can also be covered under an apprehended domestic violence order so that the perpetrator can't come near an animal and that animal is protected. And, you know, there's penalties. If somebody breaches that order. but we also got a$500,000 for refuge refuges to be able to upgrade their facilities, to house animals that were also fleeing domestic violence. That was a massive issue, right across the country where. People weren't leaving violent situations because they couldn't leave the animals behind. they knew that the animals would, would become victims if they left them there. but at the same time, refuges, rental accommodation, weren't allowing animals to come in, which made it very, very difficult. so we needed to ensure that animals could make their way. Of these situations as well. And there's still a lot more work to do in that specific space. we also got a recommendation from an inquiry we did on, dairy. and so we pushed for recommendation. So the dairy industry wanted this inquiry, and this is another reason why it's so important that we have politicians in parliament representing. Because, the dairy industry wanted an inquiry in parliament where they were asking for more subsidies, essentially because consumers are moving away from dairy. more and more people are switching to plant-based milks. The dairy industry was asking for more. I wanted, you know, they talked about labeling laws to change. Plant-based labeling, they talked about putting milk back into schools. So normalizing and encouraging, you know, young consumers that they should be consuming this every single day. so they were looking at ways to slow down that process of people switched to plant based milks. And of course, It's our taxpayer's money that is going to this industry to prop it up. You know, I stopped drinking dairy for ethical reasons. there's a lot of people that have stopped drinking it for health reasons, for environmental reasons. And yet their tax money still going to the industry to help prop it up because of their power within the government. So they asked for this inquiry so they could put, push that agenda. And I was the deputy chair on that inquiry. So I made sure we also spoke to, vegan Australia, vegan, new south Wales. We had this wonderful woman from, vegan FTA, who was a former dairy farmer who was able to give, you know, her own description of. You know, how, how hideous this industry was and how difficult it was for her as a farmer to see the Bobby calves being taken away and slaughtered and how much cruelty there was. and so of course, all of that is in the report. And then we were able to also get a recommendation in that report, even though. It was literally me again, everybody else on that committee was very pro-industry, but we managed to get an, a recommendation in that report that the government should be looking at putting some of that subsidy money instead to actually. Trans transformation. So actually offering to get dairy farmers out of the industry and helping them to switch to plant-based proteins, which is where the demand is. I mean, that's where it should always have been going towards. but it's really about getting that issue on the table. and, and obviously if the animal justice party wasn't in that inquiry, none of that stuff would have been considered. And none of those witnesses would have been coming in to give evidence.

Advice From Emma

Seb Alex 37:00

I understand. That's really amazing. The fact that the farmers can hopefully get subsidies to change into plant-based farming. I mean, a lot of people talk about what will happen to the farmers and this and that, and people will lose their jobs. Well, if the government actually cares about changing. There's more than enough money to help them out it's subsidies. So advice would you give to anyone going into political activism? Because I have none and I'd love to, I would love to be able to do political activism. It's not my thing, I know some people, it is their thing. And there aren't enough. Not role models, the people who are in that position for them to learn from. So the ones who are in that position as someone who is one of those people, what advice would you give?

Emma Hurst 37:49

It's interesting. You know, when you say, like, it's not your thing, it's because I suppose for me, I never considered a career in politics myself. I, as I said, I studied psychology. I didn't study law. but having worked and campaigned in this. For so long, I got a pretty good understanding of the law around animal protection in new south Wales and in Australia. So, you know, that really sort of built that background of information. And certainly I've worked in grassroots organizations working on individual change, but also working in corporate change. I suppose when I got into politics, I mean, it would have been somewhat useful to have had some law degree, but I don't think it's essential. as I said, you know, I've got two people in my team and so I made sure I hired two people that had skills that I don't have because nobody has every single skill. look, if people want to get involved, you know, I mean, fine. The political party that is closest to your values and get involved in, reach out. there's quite a lot of political parties all around the world. And I think people don't realize this. but there are political parties in most countries, even if they're not elected yet. So they've actually started to form. So get involved, become a member. I was on the committee. for the new south Wales animal justice party, before I became an elected member, and all sorts of, sort of start to look at things from that sort of legislative mindset, you know, what could make a big change for animals? I have actually, oddly, one thing I didn't expect, I thought when I came into politics, The amount of change that I was going to affect for animals was going to be less than what I was doing in my other jobs. what surprised me was that, that, that hasn't been the case. And I've also used a lot of the work that I did in my other jobs, in my work. you know, I still speak at protests. the great thing is when I speak at a protest now, because I'm a member of parliament, the media come along. So you know, you have all these sort of extra tools with you. I do a lot of media work, so, you know, we reach out to media, we come up with story ideas. we run a lot of social media channels, we also run campaigns as well. So we often think of things from a campaigns, perspective, you know, how do we change this? How do we do a critical path analysis? How do we do power mapping? What do we need to do to get from a to B? so you know, a lot of those tools I'm still using within my parliamentary role, the only difference is then we've got all these different. Resources available to us. you know, so we can ask questions to ministers whenever we want, and they have to, they have to provide us with an answer. we've got budget estimates where we can question ministers where we can question departmental staff about what they're doing about certain animal issues. and, you know, we're drafting legislation. We've got people in parliament that help us draft that legislation and make sure it's written in a particular way. So, I would just encourage people to get involved in any space, really, because if you're going to get into politics, you need to understand. A lot of those different areas, you need to understand public speaking, you need to understand media. you need to understand what some of the biggest issues are that are happening to animals. and then also you need to be able to talk to people. So I know a lot of grassroots activists talk to people out on the street and you know, they'll just start talking about a particular issue. Or if you've got some TVs up, you might start talking to somebody on the street about what's being shown on that TV now. I'll I have to do the same thing, you know, as we've been discussing to get anything passed, I have to get the numbers in parliament, which means that I need to have an open door policy with every other political party that wants to talk to me. And it means that I have to go and talk with people from across the political spectrum. So I can often get the grains on side with what I want. but there's only three grains and there's two animal justice. So that only gives us five votes. So I need a lot more. so I normally have to get labor site as well. there's sort of some, like they're meant to be slightly left leaning of centrist. it's difficult on some issues, but they're far more progressive than the government on a lot of these. Then I need one more vote in my parliament to be able to pass it in my house. which means I need to get either the shooters party or the Christian Democrats, which is, quite a conservative religious party, or an organized, or, a political party called one nation. who are. Enormously conservative. So I need to get one of them across the line on the issue that I'm fighting for.

Seb Alex 42:39

yeah.

Emma Hurst 42:40

and you know, that's how we ended up getting bands, for people who had, acted in a way that was cruel to an animal. and we've had quite a few other pieces of legislative change and amendments passed by getting one of those people to actually come over and agree with the amendments that we're putting up. so I'm still having those conversations. With people in the same way, as activists on the streets, conversation with people and try to convince them of why this issue is important and why people need to agree with you. so, you know, it's not that much different.

Seb Alex 43:14

out of curiosity, if you're able to share, I don't know how the laws are, but which one of the three is more likely to agree with your new legislations.

Emma Hurst 43:23

With the three conservative parties.

Seb Alex 43:25

Yeah.

Emma Hurst 43:26

Probably the Christian Democrats at this point. so, the one member that they have, you know, personally has quite strong feelings about protecting animals. however, he's leaving at the end of the year, so I don't know what the new guy's going to be like. so we're going to have to talk a bit more to him. The other political parties. I mean, interestingly, I did get the shooters across the line on the strata changes. but they will be the hardest in all circumstances, to get them on side for animal protection issues.

Emma's Famous Speech

Seb Alex 43:56

I can imagine, which is weird because a lot of the times hunters claim that they care about animals and it's like, well, if you care about animals, This is a party you want to support. Now I do have, one last question before we with the finishing question, and that is your first speech in the parliament. that your first ever time giving a speech like that or you had already done a certain amount of public speeches.

Emma Hurst 44:23

I had done some, public speaking, through my other roles. but certainly not. You know, like such a personal speech, I suppose. you know, I'd spoken quite a bit at protests and rallies. but it's interesting actually, because with the inaugural speech in parliament, you know, typically people talk about themselves and how they found their way into parliament. and you sort of get, you know, 15 or so minutes to do so. And. every other MP watches that inaugural speech. and so I sort of thought, well, if this is my opportunity for every single politician to hear what I have to say, I'm going to talk less about myself and more about the issues. And so I made sure my speech was focused around the. what was actually happening to them. and you know, if you listen to it, it's not a lot about me. It's a lot about what's happening in this country and why I made a change it. and so I saw it as an opportunity to. Get all those conservative, politicians to sit down and actually listen to the stories of, you know, what happens to an animal in the live export industry. you know, that pigs are still in sales stores that, that carves are taken away from their mothers. And people actually came up to me afterwards and they said, I had no idea that carves were taken to the slaughter house in the dairy industry. and so. It's not very often. You can have an entire room of politicians sitting down and actually listening to an animal rights activist about why they do what they do and why it's so important that we change the laws. And so that's what I made my inaugural speech.

Emma's Principles Of Change

Seb Alex 46:03

It's literally one of the most powerful speeches I have myself seen, and I will definitely add it into the description of the podcast episode for those who are listening, they can check it out. I even remember when I first came across it, I think if I'm not mistaken, it was around two years ago. I even sent it to my father. And just a few weeks ago, when I was preparing to start a podcast, I told some friends I'm going to reach out. to Emma Hurst as well. who's an, a MP in Australia and the two of them that are know, and I immediately just went on YouTube and I heard Emma her's speech in the parliament, straight away, sent the link. So to finish off, I wanted to ask you, what are your core principles that are pushing you to work for change?

Emma Hurst 46:43

Ah, that's a good question. I think that. You know, that was just this real driving force that, you know, the best way I can explain it, you know, when you're going to enter into a car park and you turn the lights on, it's like this fluorescent lights just come on. you know, that, that day when I came home and started searching about what happens to animals, that's literally what it felt like. And I just thought, I think that people are inherently kind. I think that people. care about animals and love animals. And, you know, I suppose from my years in psychology, I now see that there's so much cognitive dissonance, when cognitive dissonance comes into place, it's usually because somebody does care about animals. and that's why they don't want to hear. But there's cruelty going on. They certainly don't want to hear that they may be contributing to it because it's too hard for them to hear that their behaviors are in congruent with their beliefs. but I think that's still there and I think that people can change and that they will change. And so I guess my core value is really, you know, to, to spread kindness and to get people to really think. Outside of their own species and to realize that, you know, other others matter as well and that we need to recognize the sentience of animals. And in fact, we have to, you know, our entire world relies on us to be able to. Recognize the need to protect the environment, the need to protect animals. wearing covered lockdowns, because of the way people treated animals, which allowed, you know, a major disease outbreak. you know, I've been speaking with, Doctors and medical experts that are saying that, you know, it's the first of many pandemics. If we continue to do what we're doing. and of course all the environmental destruction that goes along with it, you know, there's this real urgent need. And I think I'm really driven by. That urgency, that so much needs to be done. And that each of us needs to advocate in whatever way we can to reach out to people, and to build that education and awareness. and then also change people's behaviors so that, you know, we can protect animals and, protect the future generations of, of all spaces.

Outro

Seb Alex 49:06

Perfect. Am I thank you so much for your time. I really appreciate it. And congratulations on your. Achievements, and I can't wait to see more of those lists of new achievements your Facebook. That's where I follow you. you again so much for your time.

Emma Hurst 49:21

Thank you.

49:23

Thank you for joining this episode with Emma Hurst. I hope you enjoyed that as much as I did. It's really amazing how much you can actually achieve with political activism. And as we go forward as a movement, I really hope we get to see more people, more activists. Taking action. Like Emma Hurst and others. If there's one thing I can ask from you all is to please share this episode with at least one friend of yours, if you found any value in it so that more and more people realize how important activism is and how much it helps other animals, the environment or whatever. Cause it is you're fighting for. I'd also like to remind you to subscribe to this podcast channel, which is, and will always be for free and leave a review to help it reach more and more people if you'd like to support his podcast, which I would really appreciate and in return, get free, exclusive and early access to all these episodes. Check out the page on link below. Until the next episode keep in mind the actual power of the individual