Season IV, Ep.1 feat. Jonathan McCrory

Jonathan McCrory is a two Obie Award-winning, Harlem-based artist who has served as Executive Artistic Director at National Black Theatre since 2012 under the leadership of CEO, Sade Lythcott. He has directed numerous professional productions and concerts which include: How the Light Gets In (NYMF), Klook and Iron John (NAMT),  Dead and Breathing, HandsUp, Hope Speaks, Blacken The Bubble, Asking for More, Last Laugh and Enter Your Sleep. He has worked at ETW at TISCH NYU with Emergence: A Communion and evoking him: Baldwin and at Suny Purchase directing Exit Strategy, &  A Beautiful Day in November on the Banks of the Greatest of the Great Lakes. He has been acknowledged as an exceptional leader additionally through Craine’s New York Business 2020 Notable LGBTQ Leaders and Executives.In 2013, he was awarded the Emerging Producer Award by the National Black Theatre Festival in Winston Salem, North Carolina, and the Torch Bearer Award by theatrical legend Woodie King Jr. He is a founding member of the collaborative producing organizations Harlem9, Black Theatre Commons, The Jubilee, Next Generation National Network and The Movement Theatre Company. McCrory sits on the National Advisory Committee for Howlround.com and was a member of the original cohort for ArtEquity. A Washington, DC native, McCrory attended the Duke Ellington School of the Arts and New York University’s TISCH School of the Arts. To learn more, please visit www.jonathanmccrory.com. 

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Transcript

Fluency Season IV Ep. 1 w/ Jonathan McCrory

Dr. Durell Cooper: 
Hello, listeners. We are back with another episode of Fluency and today I couldn't be more excited to be joined by Jonathan McCrory. Jonathan. Wow. It is so nice to finally meet you. I've been a fan of your work for years now and so to, to have an opportunity to connect with you. This is just, this is one of the gifts of podcasting.

The podcasting gods. So welcome, welcome to Fluency. 

Jonathan McCrory: 
I mean, I'm excited to be here. I'm really appreciative for the opportunity to be here. As Sade and I, the CEO of NBT always say we just love to do the good work and the love work. And through that good work and love work, we get to also meet other great people who are interested in that conversation as well. So it's a quite powerful opportunity. So thank you so much for creating space. 

Dr. Durell Cooper: 
Thank you. So I guess we'll start here. For people who may not be as familiar with you as I am could you tell us a little bit about your origin story?

Jonathan McCrory: 
Oh, okay. Me as Jonathan. So Jonathan is a DC native who grew up when DC was Chocolate City. And very, very proud of being that DC native. In that moment in time and period . Grew up in a time and a place where he was able to truly embody and connect with the black community, black artistry, actually train at Duke Ellington School of the Arts.

And that's where I began my musical theater training and my theater training in general. Had many theater moms and theater dads who really just made sure that I was poured into in a profound way. And because I was poured into I landed into NYU and I haven't left New York ever since then.

So in 2008, I found my DC legs in New York City streets and I found home. And when you find home, as many people who are listening may agree to or attest to, when you find that essence of home, you just never wanna let it go. So every place that I've been to in New York City, from NYU when I first stepped into Washington Square Park, to walking the streets of Harlem to walking into National Black Theatre, every ethos, every step that I've taken, I've been guided to understand what home looks like for myself and hopefully in the tenure of the work that I've been able to do lean into the curiosity of what does it mean to create a home for our future. And so from NYU, studied musical theater, then went into Experimental Theater Wing, founded a theater company, called The Movement Theater Company, my junior year of college, which is still going today, going strong. And then from there, founded a producing entity with a bunch of friends. All this was with a group of people, never by myself but with a group of people called Harlem Nine, which is still going strong and I've been able to publish anthology, interconnect people, launch people's like lives and, and, and tribe and family. And then really investigating and interrogating this space of what does it mean to create a national sense of home for black and brown BIPOC artists. To be able to really lean into the curiosity of our abundance.

So who is Jonathan? Jonathan is the curious person searching for home and does whatever I can to build that so that a future me doesn't have the same conversation that I had. Hopefully they get to do something a little bit different. 

Dr. Durell Cooper: 
Oh, that was, that was absolutely beautiful. Thank you so much for sharing that. Let's, let's stay on Jonathan for a little while. I'm, I'm enjoying this topic. I hope you are. 

You mentioned like, you know, you do a lot of this work, this, this good work, this, this love work for future Jonathans and other, you know, Jonathans out there. What do you think like, 12, 13, 9 year old Jonathan, what would that Jonathan say to the Jonathan today, if you had an opportunity to meet? 

Jonathan McCrory: 
So like, so like what I will uplift and say is that I would hope that the 12, the 9 year old, even the 18 year old Jonathan. If I was able to meet them with the kind of infrastructure and the kind of advancement that I've been able to already accomplish, and they met the world that is right now happening, that it's the exact similar essence of what someone who is a black dancer gets to have when they think of Ailey.

Ailey allows for a black artist, a black dancer, to imagine themselves in a global stage, no matter if they ever interact with Ailey or do something at Ailey. The very notion of its existence creates a vortex for my body as a black artist to be imagined and to, like , when I was young, watching them be at the Kennedy Center.

Having them come to my school and talk about how they travel the world, how they do shows at Lincoln Center in New York City, and how they're, and how they're connected to their African self and all of that. The possibilities of that actually awakens a doorway inside the psyche of an individual artist to be able to dream differently.

And, and that Jonathan may never touch National Black Theatre. That Jonathan may never try to create Harlem Nine or create the Movement Theater Company. That Jonathan may not work with those ensembles to create it, because now I get to dream differently.

Right? And so like what I would hope that, that Jonathan would be, if I was to interact with that Jonathan in this present moment, at this present time, they would feel a sense of deep aspirational hope that would allow for them to activate different vortexes inside of what this society needs and pour that brilliance that hopefully would be coming out of them in different pockets of our community that need that same kind of love work, that same kind of labor work, that same kind of visioning work.

So, I would hope that, I don't know. I don't know, but we'll see what happens. I mean, we'll see where it takes us. We'll see what happens in the next 50 years. What new narratives show up. Because of the love work, Sade and I have been pouring ourselves into. 

Dr. Durell Cooper: 
Oh, you know, it, it's, it's interesting as, as I'm listening to you talk, there's like some similarities there.

So when I was like in the 11th grade, the 10th or 11th grade, I can't remember exactly, it was my first trip to New York. I was brought up to do this program that Juilliard was doing at the time called the Juilliard Experience, where they invite high school students up for like a week to like take classes and stuff like that with like actual Juilliard faculty.

Part of that experience, they took us to go see Ailey and I remember sitting there being like 14, 15 or maybe like 15, 16, I can't remember. But I remember sitting there and like, okay. I knew I liked theater. I was already going to like a performing arts high school.

I knew I liked theater but watching this I went, oh, this, this is what we do. 

Jonathan McCrory: 
Yeah. 

Dr. Durell Cooper: 
Like this is what it is. You know? So it's just beautiful hearing you talk about that, but also connecting it to like Ailey, like, you know, seeing it at such a formative age and just how powerful it can be when we realize how rooted we can be like in ourselves. 

Jonathan McCrory: 
And we haven't had a vessel like that in our generation, in the form of theater, in the form of like, you know what I mean? There hasn't been that, that kind of pinnacle. Lighthouse . That has been able to do what Ailey has done.

Now, not to say NBT will be that, right? Not to say NBT will ever, ever aspire to that route where we're touring pieces, well, we are touring pieces around the country, but like, we'll get to the place where we're like an Ailey, right? Because that's a different corporate or structural model than maybe what NBT ultimately wants to do.

But what I will say, Is that the gift of what National Black Theatre has been able to achieve of all the way up until now, is that it has created an invitation for a black artist to have a home to come to when they show up in New York City. If you are looking for a place that looks like you. crafted by you, founded by a black woman. You have a home, you have a space . We've incubated theater companies that way. We've incubated artists that way. We have incubated ideas that way. NGOs, that way, like we are an entrepreneurial landscape of creative production.

To have that as a vortex, as a space where things are coming out of and allowing for that burgeoning new economy to show up. That is for us, that is by us, that is in our community, right? We think about Harlem as the Black Mecca, but also a Harlem that is also definitely going through a gentrification because everything is changing or shifting.

How do you then anchor this cultural legacy to actual people in a way in which that doesn't displace them outside of their own rich history, legacy, and fortitude that they deserve. 

Dr. Durell Cooper: 
Oh. So I know NBT has come up a few times and, and we're gonna get there. I promise we're gonna get there. But I wanna talk about some other work of yours first. So, last year I had the privilege. I was blessed. I was given the gift from the universe to have the opportunity to see The Gathering: A Sonic Ring Shout at the Apollo which my mentor Donna Walker Kuhne had worked on. And she was like, you gotta go see this. You gotta go see this. And I was able to, to make a a student matinee of it actually, which, you know, was probably the best scenario for me to be able to see it because not only was I able to kinda like go and like listen to it, but then the conductor was also breaking down the different pieces of it and then connecting it back to how this is all interrelated to our roots.

Jonathan McCrory: 
Mm-hmm. 

Dr. Durell Cooper: 
You know, as part of like the diaspora and I was like, this is amazing. It's absolutely amazing. And then looking around and seeing like, you know, you know, again, going back to like young people, how they were experiencing this, like this, you know, I'm gonna let you talk to it because it's your work. But the, just thank you for that gift to the universe because it was amazing. But yeah. Could you talk to us a little bit about a Sonic Ring Shout? 

Jonathan McCrory: 
Yeah, so The Gathering: a Sonic Ring Shout, it was built off of centering this piece, which was having its New York premiere called The Seven Last Words of the Unarmed made by Joel Thompson. And that piece is really centering around animating the seven last words of male identified bodies who are murdered by the cops to an 80 person orchestra, 60 person choir. So what does it mean for that symphonic sound, those last words that were stricken from us by their last breath, to be honored, uplifted and honed in that way? And Kamilah Forbes, who is the Executive Artistic Director for the Apollo Theater wanted to make sure that if we are gonna uplift this very beautiful piece that deserves this space, that it didn't come from a space of trauma induced, but it came from a space of liberation, a space of healing, a space of radical imagination that helped us to move the conversation forward. So in wanting to create that liberation space she brought NBT, she brought me into the mix. She asked me to see if I would direct the evening. And I, and then she, what she presented to me was like three pieces. She said, you got these three orchestral pieces that are existing. I need you to do something with it. Turn it into a whole evening. I said Okay, sis, I love you. We gonna go this route. I need to bring some of my family with me because we gonna need to bring some of the pedagogy structure. So she said yes to bringing National Black Theatre which has been a huge brand advocate and supporter of the Apollo for many, many years. So NBT and the Apollo and myself really got to go through this beautiful process, and American Composers Orchestra got to really sit with this piece that was meant to actually show up in 2020. So in 2020 it was meant to like premiere and have its moment and be done, but then the pandemic hit. And when the pandemic hit, it forced us to go into three years of hibernation and going into three years of hibernation asked us to have a different conversation with what the results were gonna be. And by having the moment to pause, we had the moment to also deepen, also a moment to reflect, and also a moment to create a beautiful love note that has actually been a transformative gift to myself, to my colleagues, to my community, to people who have interacted with it.

So, The Gathering: A Sonic Ring Shout really comes from looking at the cultural phenomenon that happens in the Geechee, the Gullah Geechee culture called the Ring Shout. There was a mechanism used during the Antebellum South by black enslaved and indentured humans. Black people, who would utilize this technology that traveled across the ocean during the middle passage from West Africa, and found its way to the Carolinas. And this tool was a tool of finding church, was a tool of finding liberation, and was a tool of finding their healing. So what does that look like? What does that taste like? How did they do it? The Ring Shout is a moment where they would go out into the forest. Find a sacred space that they would gather in, and then they would literally use their grief for their own transformation and their own liberation. And from that space of liberation, they would then begin to have conversations with their spirituality. With their future. And on some level I would even romanticize and say they created the mechanism to forecast a me, a you, this conversation to actually happen in this moment in time. Right? They forecasted a space from their third eye of future that we now get to engage with. So, in wanting to figure out how do we meet this moment after the pandemic and in the midst of the pandemic with a love salve, with a programmatic gift that will be a salve, that will, that will not try to say that all your problems are gone by the time you finish looking at this, but can't say for this moment, we are gonna create the mechanism for you to know what your liberation looks like, so that when you meet the world that has not changed, you are not confronted with the shock of what that means. Because in the Ring Shout, they did all of that and then they went back in the morning to being back on the cotton fields, back on the sugar cane fields, back on being indentured servants, being slaves. So if we look and we think about what theater and art can do, a lot of what we do is a Ring Shout. A lot of what we create is a Ring Shout mechanism. We open up the gateways and possibilities for us to understand our own liberation, yet inside of that, of what we're meeting, the future us that we're meeting, the present us that we're meeting is also a relationship to a world that has not changed. A world that still, when we walk out this door, when we get off of this podcast, when everything happens, you and I have metabolically gone through a shift. However, the world that we're interacting with may not know that shift. And so then what does that mean? How do we engage with each other afterwards? And so the Ring Shout was also a coded way for us to create care inside of what we were seeking to do. And so what, what we ultimately were able to create and conceive collectively was a seven part journey that took you from your root chakra to your crown chakra. So utilizing the seven chakras that live inside of the body as different sonic modules that would then be opened up through the pathways of these works. We also then paired the three existing works with newly commissioned pieces that were in response, call in response, which is part of the Ring Shout technology, that were in response to the other one. So, like Jason Michael Webb is responding to Joel Thompson's. Toshi Reagon is responding to Courtney with Sanctum. Nona Hendryx is responding to Carlos Simon's. And then you have Abby Dobson who's doing The Benediction, awakening the space with her acapella piece.

So all of that intentionality. And then you have a person like Mahogany L. Browne who narrates original pieces that help us to actually have an oratator as we would have in our tradition, in our black African tradition, an oratator to guide us through those different benchmarks and different aspects.

So the intentionality of what you were able to witness and what folks got to witness was deeply thought of and also should not be seen, right? It should just be experienced. I hope that you don't experience all the labor, you experience the gift of the opportunity to relax and breathe. And it's because of that tilling that you could then begin to relax and breathe. So that's The Gathering. That's a little bit more around the context of where it came from, how it was conceived. The exciting aspect of The Gathering is that it's on the verge of having another opportunity.

We are on the prospects of actually transferring the show to the Kennedy Center. And what would it look like to do it in the Opera House at the Kennedy Center, at this level, at this scale? To invite this conversation to our community and if we get the date that we want during a national election, what does it look like to bring this conversation to our nation's capitol during a national election?

To have a conversation around police state violence, around psychic trauma, to have a conversation around the various different ways in which we create dissonance. Because of how society is configured and treats us. 

Dr. Durell Cooper: 
Oh, thank you so much for sharing that, that, that's so, so beautiful. And I, you know, what this is sort of like reminding me of right, is just how much we're all these vibrational molecules that are bouncing around on this spinning rock in the middle of nowhere trying to make sense out of this thing called our existence. And I think what's so beautiful again about that offering is that, you know, we talk about generational trauma or you know, cyclical trauma or harm. But joy also gives out the same ripples, right?

So as you put that out into the universe, we don't know the accumulative effect that it has over time. Because as you mentioned, you know, if we're going into like the space time continuum of it all, there's another alternate universe out there somewhere where this is still reverberating.

I mean, it's reverberating for us now, and when people listen to this, they're gonna just start, you know, Googling it and, and looking out for it. 

 Let's, let's, let's go into NBT. First of all, congratulations on all the incredible success that National Black Theatre is having.

And I know it's a team effort but just what has this moment felt like, , just kind of going through this experience of everything, like all this work that we talked about from Harlem Nine, to Duke Ellington to like, you know, the Sonic Ring Shout now, now this is the fruit of like Jonathan's labor, you know what I mean?

And it's, it's bearing some sweetness, let's say. 

Jonathan McCrory: 
I mean, what I ... what I will, say is that the opportunity of this moment and the bearing of fruit of it is something that I have to always create pause for because I've always been a doer.

I've always been tilling and laboring and I've always been fortifying. And I stretch into the vibration of celebration and I try to stretch into it so hard all the time because I also understand, to your point, the joy of the mechanism of resilience. And if we can create space for the joy to show up, we actually create more. We tell the universe, actually, that's what our body wants to live inside of. Not the opposite. I don't wanna be the laborer forever. I don't wanna be the, I wanna be the person who gets to celebrate. Right? And I wanna be the person who gets to enjoy the fruit that I labor, not just bear it. So in this moment, it's a pinch me moment.

It's a get soft moment, right? It's a... It's a be quiet. Humble your breath. Be clear about the context in which you actually are in and also be grateful that you're the one who gets to witness it because there's many generations who did not get to.

And so then what does it mean for your body to be the witnesser that gets to be the vessel that gets to lean into it and be able to actually experience it. I think that it is, to your point, deeply collaborative. I'm only, I'm, I, I'm only able to stand here connected to National Black Theatre because of three individuals in particular, and I'll talk about each and every one of them when I talk about this bearing of fruit moment, right? Someone witnessed a show that I directed at Harlem Stage called Michele. Her name is Michele Shay. She then said, do you know this person by the name of Sade Lythcott who works at National Black Theatre? Do you do anything with NBT? I think the two of y'all should know. And I was like, I don't really do anything at NBT, and I would love to know Sade. So then, Michele Shay is Sade's godmother. She then connects us. We have tea and coffee, and, like, almost 11 to 12 years later, this is the fruits that bear from that tea and coffee, right?

And so then Sade becomes a really important mechanism inside of this moment of bearing fruit and, and celebrating because she honored the specialness of what our connection could be. Right? But she also equally said, I'm gonna invest in this 25 year old in a way in which I don't think anyone else will. I'm gonna give him space. I'm gonna give him space to dream and imagine and be inside of his adulting self in a way in which that even, I had not even imagined yet. I thought the space that I'm occupying now I would get when I'm 40, but at 25, to be given the question, do you want to go on this kind of sacred road, blew my mind. Right? So that's one other thing. And the last individual that I just wanna uplift in this moment is our founder, Dr. Barbara Ann Teer. On so many levels, I think that, I was crafted, stitched, and profoundly made to be a vessel for her channeling. On so many levels I feel like, I feel like I, I'm a child of hers. On so many levels I feel like I was crafted by source energy to be able to do this work in a present way. The labor that I've been able to till is not, is not small. It's humongous. And yet my body was crafted to hold it. And welcome it. And not to say I don't have my days where I get tired, fatigued, and wanna say, like, I don't know if we can curse here, but f- it all, right? 

Dr. Durell Cooper: 
You sure can if you want. 

Jonathan McCrory: 
But like, I also just wanna say that, I've been really meditating on this, this idea of the breaking point and how we talk about things that break us or things that navigate our breaking point. And I've been really wrestling with this notion or with the solidarity point of what if the conversation is not, what is my breaking point? The conversation is really leaning into how do I, how how is this actually affirmation that I'm unbreakable? Right, and that I chose to honor it by breaking, right?

I chose to honor the moment of my, affirmed unbreakableness to be broken, right? That, that we are co-curators and crafters of our own design. And how do we navigate that co-curation and the choosing of what we choose to do now. Not to say, I'm not trying to say that, that like we don't deserve to have that feeling, we don't deserve to feel in those spaces, but if the universe, if I do believe, and this is my methodology, my pedagogy, not everyone's, but if I do honestly believe that everything's divinely crafted, divinely made, and I am divinely a steward of that, then why would anything come for my harm? Everything would then become for my good. Everything would be coming for my space of amplification and affirmation, if that is the truth that I actually believe in. 

Dr. Durell Cooper: 
Oof, all things working together-

Jonathan McCrory: 
Did I answer your questions? I feel like I went all around the mulberry bush. 

Dr. Durell Cooper: 
Look, you, you, you answered it. You know, what, what do they say in court? Like, asked and answered.

So let's, can we just very briefly, so Fat Ham. We have to mention the elephant in the room - 

Jonathan McCrory: 
Yeah, please talk about Fat Ham! I didn't talk about Fat Ham at all - 

Dr. Durell Cooper: 
- or the pig in the room, right? We have to talk about Fat Ham and like, you know, that, one - the incredible success. But also I wanna make sure people are aware that it's out and can go and see it. 

Jonathan McCrory: 
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So Fat Ham. So everyone who's on listening to this, you definitely need to check out this show called Fat Ham. It's happy on Broadway. It is funny. It is important. It is significant.

I'm gonna tell you all the reasons why. One is that it's making history. It is the first time in a half a century that a black theater is transferring a show to Broadway. And it will be the third black theater in the history of Broadway to transfer a show directly to Broadway.

The fifth production by a black theater to do that. The other two theater companies that were able to do this work, this love work, this breaking work of the glass ceiling, was Negro Ensemble and then New Federal Theatre. So National Black Theatre is a part of that, now, legacy and pantheon. Why you also wanna come see Fat Ham is because it is a Pulitzer-winning play that is radically giving us as a community the gift of joy as a mechanism. We talked about joy throughout this entire time, and I think if you wanna see joy in action, joy as a revolutionary act of liberation, come see Fat Ham. Come see what it looks like to go through grief and find laughter on the other side. Come see what it feels like to own your laughter as a choice of expression. Come also see what it looks like to live inside of the world of folk who are searching, as we all are. But what does it mean to find ourselves on the other side of grief? After, after three years of a, of a pandemic, an epidemic that seems to continuously radically shape shift and move who we are and where we are. It, it becomes, it becomes really important and I just wanna uplift the importance of us really finding those communal spaces that allow for our laughter to be a part of the mechanism so that we can radically shift and shape some of the dead spaces that live inside of our lives. 

So that's Fat Ham. It's happening right now. It goes until the end of June for sure. It might go until August, but it only gets to stay on Broadway if the community shows up. Unlike other productions where they have set time, this is a commercial production and it only is able to stay alive because community members are able to invest in showing up and making it be an appointment that they want to go to.

So if you're listening from wherever you are in the world and the globe, make sure that you check out Fat Ham. Give Fat Ham some love. Buy a ticket today. And actually, I promise you, on the other side, you will find the reward of why.

Dr. Durell Cooper: 
Jonathan, are you doing any talkbacks for it anytime soon? I would love, I would love to come and, one, have an opportunity to meet you in person but also to see it and and just listen to you talk , like, I - I'm not done listening to you talk. 

Jonathan McCrory: 
So technically there are talkbacks that are happening that are connected with the show. And the Chambers Group, our PR company, they can make sure that you know when those talkbacks are happening. We have one actually coming up this weekend with Cynthia Erivo actually hosting a talk.

As far as NBT doing talkbacks, we just did one. We're not scheduled to do another one currently right now. We might do one in the course of the run, and if we do, we'll make sure that we let you know ASAP. 

Dr. Durell Cooper: 
Oh, thank you. Thank you so much. And you know, Jonathan, you are our ancestors' wildest dreams. So thank you. Thank you so much for being here today. Thank you for sharing your light. Thank you for sharing your joy. And thank you for allowing me to experience this, this good work, this love work . If only for a moment. So thank you. 

Jonathan McCrory: 
Ashe! Have a good one. Thank you so much.