The Work Seminar
The Work Seminar
Ep. 19: Amanda Kass - MA in Geography & PhD in Urban Planning & Policy Turned Public Finance Analyst
Amanda’s passion for public finance harkens back to her undergrad days. Yet before grad school, she had never intended to pursue applied public policy work.
Her interest in social theory and the effects of capitalism in international aid and development led her to pursue an MA in geography. After finishing her thesis on post-earthquake reconstruction efforts in Haiti, she landed a job researching Illinois’ public pension systems.
Soon, she was neck deep in public finance questions reminiscent of her scholarship. Reveling in that work led Amanda to reconsider her future career.
And when she discovered that University of Illinois at Chicago’s PhD in urban planning and policy program included faculty with geography and public finance experience, she found her doctoral calling.
Now her work at UIC’s Government Finance Research Center continues the thread of helping people understand where their money goes—and how it’s being used.
Had Amanda not been open to a job in applied policy, she might never have found industry work she loves.
Note: Apologies in advance to listeners without strong Illinois or Chicago ties. We delve into the weeds a bit — just a bit — of Land of Lincoln and Windy City taxes and finances. But to the locals: Enjoy!
Resources mentioned
Amanda and Daniel Kay Hertz’s TIF Explainer
Where to find Amanda and the Government Finance Research Center
UIC’s Government Finance Research Center
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Hey everyone. Thanks for joining me for another episode. I'm your host, Jesse Butts. Today, I'm chatting with Amanda Kass, an MA in geography and PhD in urban planning and policy turned public finance analyst. Amanda is now the associate director of the Government Finance Research Center at the University of Illinois at Chicago. Amanda, welcome to the show. Thanks for joining me.
Amanda Kass:Hey, thanks so much for having me.
Jesse Butts:Absolutely. So before we dive into the path from geography to urban planning to public financing or to public finance, excuse me, I'm wondering if you could tell us a little bit about what you're doing at UIC now. What is the Government Finance Research Center's focus? And how do you relate to that?
Amanda Kass:Yeah. So the center, the Government Finance Research Center, we were launched in 2018. So we're still a relatively kind of new center. And we're a research unit within UIC, within the College of Urban Planning and Public Affairs, specifically. Um, and so our mission is to shape and inform public policy and scholarly discourse on government and public finance. Kind of, I think what that means is, we do exactly what our name says. We study and research, government finance. And we kind of disseminate that research, I think, in a variety of mediums, because we're really interested in shaping public policy and public discourse. So we write blogs, we write research papers, we write academic papers. We do interviews like this.
Jesse Butts:You're kind of, or not kind of, you're a non-partisan vehicle for, for people who are trying to figure out what exactly is being spent and the efficacy of that with public institutions?
Amanda Kass:Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And I think, you know, for me, I came into kind of public finance from a non kind of linear path. And so one of my interests has long been like, How do I explain to other people how to research public finance issues? How do I explain to someone or help them get tools to be able to understand how their own community is spending public dollars?
Jesse Butts:Is this at all levels of government? Or are you concentrated mostly on like federal or state or Chicago specifically or...?
Amanda Kass:We're pretty focused on local governments, not specific to Chicago, but I'd say local governments within the United States. Um, my kind of career background is such that I also kind of personally focus on the state of Illinois, city of Chicago, and other local governments in Illinois.
Jesse Butts:Great. So now that we have a better understanding of what you're doing and what the organization is all about, can you tell us a little bit about why you decided to go to grad school for geography? What made you want to go beyond your undergrad studies?
Amanda Kass:It's nice to, I don't know, I guess reflect on that a little bit. So, I, when I went to undergrad, when I started undergrad, I actually had a really strong interest in international development and international studies. So I started out as an international studies major and I thought that I would go on to do international work, international development work, but kind of found that I wasn't totally interested in, in doing that. And was, you know, like many undergrads kind of thinking like, What else do I do? And a friend at the time said, Hey, you should take a geographic information system, a GIS class. Like GIS is some software you can learn. It's a practical skill. It'll open up a lot of doors to you. And so that's, that was kind of my introduction to geography. And then I took some other classes within the geography department, specifically, a class that was about development. But it started with kind of a philosophical question of, of kind of, What is development? And introduced me to kind of social theory. And I just loved that class. And that's, that's what set me on the path for geography. And I worked really closely with the professor who taught that class. And I did an undergraduate thesis. And he really encouraged me to kind of go on in and pursue an academic route. And then I should say too my, both my dad and my brother work in academia. So it, this was kind of like a known career path for me.
Jesse Butts:of us, and I'm definitely including myself in this, who really aren't that familiar with what one studies in, in a geography program, undergrad or graduate, what kind of, of courses, or emphases or, or focuses can you study in geography?
Amanda Kass:Yeah. I think geography is a really great discipline that has a lot of sub specialties in it. So let's say, if you're really passionate about climate change and issues of climate change, there's physical geography is one of the branches. I got to take a class with one of the kind of world premiere people on climatology, who did ice core samples as an undergrad. There's also human geography. So if you're kind of interested in societal questions around, let's say capitalism or the labor market. Like, how does U.S. consumption impact international issues? You can study that in geography. And then there's also the kind of spatial science aspect. Like I said, doing geographic information systems. That I think of as kind of more applied route with a lot of kind of technical skills. So geography is a really big, I think, umbrella with a lot of really interesting branches or sub-disciplines to it.
Jesse Butts:And you were taking initially that more... Is it GIS? That's an acronym for that
Amanda Kass:Yeah. Yeah. GIS. Yep.
Jesse Butts:Okay. And what are you, what are you doing in that software exactly, or broadly? Maybe not exactly as the right way to phrase that.
Amanda Kass:I, the way I use it is I think of it like a tool. Like I think of Excel or I think of R. And it's a tool for doing spatial analysis and for map making. So, let's say I wanna make a map of all of the municipalities that are in Cook County, Illinois. My interest is in population growth. So I want to be able to visually see which communities have seen their populations grow and which ones have seen their populations shrink. That's something I can do in Arc GIS.
Jesse Butts:Is this also like if there were... Perhaps some like proposed, I don't know, shopping center or factory, is this type of software you'd use to determine like, you know, how big it could be or how it would fit or that type of thing as well?
Amanda Kass:Yeah, for sure. There's a lot you can do in GIS software. Think of it, like you can put in a lot of different layers and analyze those layers all at once. So let's say you, you're considering lots of different sites for, you said a mall or a development, and you want to take into consideration transportation, environmental impact, nearby population, other businesses that might feed into this new business. You could layer all of that in GIS and use kind of some of the analysis tools to refine the location and kind of narrow it down from, let's say a really big pool of locations to more specified ones.
Jesse Butts:Got it. So, when you started your master's and you were working through that program, you entered with this kind of, I don't want to say GIS focus, but maybe the route surrounding that was what you were interested in. Did that change or evolve as you, you engaged more with the field?
Amanda Kass:I would say I have kind of, um, I had dual parts to myself at that time. So the GIS part was, I think, rooted in a more kind of practicality of, I need job skills. Cause I graduated undergrad in 2008 when the financial crisis was happening, right. So that was really formative to me. And I really thought about what kind of jobs can I get? And I felt a real importance of like having skills that could land me jobs. But then the other part of me was, was really academically inclined and really interested in social theory. Kind of critiques about capitalism. Um, and that was the kind of side that I was pursuing when I went to do the master's program. It was not kind of GIS, rooted or practical at all. It was really rooted in these kinds of questions about international development and a kind of capitalism.
Jesse Butts:I'm sorry. I misunderstood that. As you were in your program and you are finishing up, did your interest in international development, the, you know, critiques and questions about capitalism. Did that intensify? Or were you leaving with kind of a different perspective than what you started?
Amanda Kass:Yeah, it's I think I got kind of burnt out in the master's program to be totally candid. So, again, I went there when I started the master's program, I thought I would continue on into the PhD program. So I, I kind of view the master's as like a stepping stone to the PhD. And again, at that time I was doing more kind of internationally focused research. My thesis for my masters was about the post earthquake reconstruction efforts in Haiti. I went to Haiti for just about a week, and kind of And I was particularly interested in the kind of outpouring of international aid and particularly U.S. aid that was pledged to the reconstruction efforts. And I was really interested in like, Where does that money actually go? And then this, this kind of brought up like lots of ethical questions for me of like, essentially, like, What am I doing with this thesis? Or would this work to kind of actually make the world a better place? And I just kind of felt like what I was pursuing was not, not what I wanted to do. But I didn't really know what I wanted to do. But I just knew that the path that I was on, wasn't what I wanted to keep doing.
Jesse Butts:And just, just timeframe wise, you finished your master's in 2011. Am I remembering that correctly?
Amanda Kass:Yep.
Jesse Butts:I know probably technically we were out of The Great Recession, but you know, as far as I can recall, it still felt like we were in the throes or the aftershock of it. But what did you end up doing after you, you finished your master's and knew that you didn't want to pursue the PhD in geography?
Amanda Kass:It's kind of a funny story. So I finished up my master's at the same time that my now husband was finishing up his undergrad, and he was moving to Chicago for graduate school. So I moved, moved to Chicago with him and didn't really have a plan. I spent the first summer that we were there writing my master's thesis up and just applying to every and any job that I could. Because I had these GIS skills that I developed as an undergrad, I applied to kind of anything that had to do with GIS. I just applied to stuff that had to do with public policy. Initially, I worked at a retail store. I worked at Banana Republic when we first moved there because I really had, I had no idea, you know, like, what's next? What do I want to do? But I need a job.
Jesse Butts:First I want to say that a summer in Chicago, not knowing what to do is a pretty good place to be and good time of year. For anybody considering Chicago. But, um, that plug aside. So how long were you working at Banana Republic or, or sorting things out before you landed on, you know, work that was more aligned to, to what you were doing? Or is that when you were seriously considering an urban policy PhD?
Amanda Kass:No, I wasn't. So when I came to Chicago, I kind of knew. I had an interest in like some day maybe I'll, I'll go back and pursue a PhD. There's no geography PhD programs in Chicago. So I was kinda like, I don't know what's next. I heard about the Urban Planning and Policy Program at UIC and thought of that as kind of most aligned with my interests. And actually CUPPA the college has a job's board, just an online kind of list of jobs. And I actually went to that and, and looked at jobs on there and applied to the job that I got, which was as a researcher for the Center for Tax and Budget Accountability. And I have like no idea what was going on in my brain that made me think I was qualified for the job. Because I'm like, wasn't, it was for a position researching Illinois' public pension systems. I didn't have a background in fiscal policy or public finance at all. I didn't know anything about Illinois' politics. Like I'd heard of who Rod Blagojevich was but didn't know anything past that. Had no awareness that public pensions in Illinois were underfunded or what a huge issue this was. Like just no idea what I was getting myself into. But like, there's something in my brain that was like, Oh, like I was interested in money when it came to the reconstruction, reconstruction efforts in Haiti, this has to do with money. This seems like an interesting organization, I'll apply for it. I'm lucky that I got it and it ended up being a really great fit for me. But I still, you know, I I'm like, I don't know what was going on in my brain thought, I thought that I could do this.
Jesse Butts:I think this is a really interesting point though, is that we often feel that we're not qualified or we're far from the ideal candidate. And we let that hinder us. But it can be taking these chances like these that changed the trajectory of our careers and our lives.
Amanda Kass:Oh, Yeah. And it totally the other, like, I don't know. I think like funny thing that I think back on is, I had long said, like, I wasn't interested in doing applied work or public policy work. And then here I was after my master's degree, like gravitating towards jobs that have direct kind of public policy work. Or like that's really the space that the work that I've been doing is in. And so, yeah, it was like not only a job that was not quite aligned with my academic training, but also kind of in a field that I had long thought is like, oh, not for me.
Jesse Butts:So what led to that mind shift change?
Amanda Kass:That's such a good question. I wish I could like put myself back in where I was at. Like, I guess it was like almost 10 years ago. I think at the time I was just applying to like any and all jobs that I thought I was remotely qualified for and that, and that seemed interesting. And I was fortunate that the job that I got at the Center for Tax and Budget Accountability was one that I really loved and, and I think through that job, learned how much I really do like having a foot and kind of the quote unquote, real world, of impacting policy or being able to weigh in on contemporary policy political issues. And so it was really like through that job experience, I think, that I uncovered that what I'm really interested in.
Jesse Butts:And was that the job prior to applying to PhD programs and going that route or...?
Amanda Kass:Yeah, it was. So I worked at CTBA for several years before I applied to the PhD program. And then when I started the PhD program, worked there part-time for a while.
Jesse Butts:As you entered the urban planning program, is public finance typically a concentration? Or was this kind of another scenario of finding something a little tangential and then kind of making it your own?
Amanda Kass:I think it's definitely for me was a little... the latter. Finding something that's a little tangential and like making it my own. Again, when I first moved to Chicago, I had heard about CUPPA and part of why I'd heard about it is the person who became my advisor, Brenda Parker, her PhD is actually in geography. So the urban planning and policy program was long on my radar as like the most geograpyish program in Chicago. And then there's scholars like Rachel Weber and Phil Ashton that their, their work isn't kind of public finance, but it's public finance ish. So Rachel Weber asks a lot of questions about kind of economic development. She does a lot of work around tax increment financing. And so I thought that the program was a really good fit with my interests. And then, I've kind of started building up this career doing public finance, and I wanted to keep that, I guess, that, that kind of career door path going. So I kept working throughout the PhD program.
Jesse Butts:And there are just a couple terms you mentioned that I want to make sure that we understand. So CUPPA, what is that?
Amanda Kass:Oh, CUPPA is the, let me make sure I get the acronym right. It's the College of Urban Planning and Public Affairs. So it's, the college at UIC that I did my PhD in and that I still work at. And so the college has two different departments. One is the public administration department and the other is the urban planning and policy. And so public finance typically falls more in public administration departments than urban planning and policy departments.
Jesse Butts:And you mentioned, I actually can't recall the definition. I just know the acronym, TIF. I know kind of what it is. It has to do something with certain areas can spend taxes in certain ways. But maybe you could give us a real definition of that.
Amanda Kass:Uh, TIF is such a thorny, thorny, thorny topic. So TIF stands for tax increment financing. And so it's, it's an economic development tool, basically. So what happens is an area gets designated a TIF district. And so then all the properties that are in that district, all the properties within the TIF district, then any growth that is in their property value, the taxes from the growth and the property values is used to finance development projects within that TIF district.
Jesse Butts:Let's just use Chicago as an example. If Navy Pier expanded, and that brought lot of growth and revenue. Instead of that going back to all of Chicago or for, know, the mayor's office to figure out how that spent that district instead gets to decide where, in its purview, that's spent, versus the whole city saying, Oh, we got a little extra money. We can apply it in this neighborhood five miles away.
Amanda Kass:Yeah, that's roughly how it works. And part of the argument is that that extra money wouldn't have happened but for the development. And so, but for this TIF district, you wouldn't have had that extra money. And the actual kind of mechanics are a little more complicated. I actually wrote, I think an explainer about TIFs with Daniel Kay Hertz a couple of years ago. And I think it's on my website or it's on his website if people are listening to this and like scratching their heads, like what's a TIF?
Jesse Butts:TIF and some of these other things, these are the kinds of things you're interested in studying. These implications of how how tax revenue is collected and how it's spent ...Are these the things that you're diving into more in both your PhD program and the job that you maintained during that time?
Amanda Kass:Yeah, definitely. And I think some of it too was, was a desire to provide information and explanations to people. So I think public finance is often highly technical, somewhat arcane, and there's like a high barrier to be able to kind of enter the conversation in and discuss about it. TIF is a good example of, I think, there's a lot of politics around TIF. But there's also often a lot of, kind of confusion about the actual mechanics of TIF. How does it work? What does it do?
Jesse Butts:As you are in your PhD program and you're simultaneously working full time, what are you thinking as you get close to your dissertation or start working on it as to what you want to do after you finish the program?
Amanda Kass:That's uh, that's a good question. Again, as somebody who graduated undergrad in the last financial crisis, that was really formative to me. And also seeing the kind of massive changes I think in higher ed. So as a PhD student and somebody in the PhD program, right, like you're kind of trained that the end goal is an academic job. That the end goal is to get a tenure track position at a R1, you know, research institution. But those jobs are very, very few and far between. So I kind of, again, have this mindset of like, I want to keep a foot in a world outside of academia to kind of try and keep the maximum number of career op the doors open. And I was really fortunate that the center that I'm currently at launched in 2018, which is around the time I think that I started, I think I passed my qualifying exams. I was like all but dissertation at that point. And so I got the position as the associate director. And kind of helped launch the center with the founding director who is also the Dean at the college of CUPPA. And, I'll be like candid of like I haven't really thought much past my current position. I'm fortunate that I love this job. We have a new director, Deborah Carroll, who started this past summer. Who's amazing. I love working with her. We've got some really interesting research projects that we've got going on. So I've been fortunate though. Like, I don't really need to think past my current job.
Jesse Butts:Nice. And just to, to clarify. So you finished your dissertation while working at your current job?
Amanda Kass:Yes. Which I don't, if anybody's interested in doing a PhD, I don't totally recommend doing that...
Jesse Butts:So just a very practical question. You were working and going to school full time. You finished your dissertation while you're at your full-time job. What is it like now not having an academic obligation over you as you're working?
Amanda Kass:Oh, gosh. It's interesting. It took... So, when I was working on the dissertation, writing it, I would start writing at like 5.30 in the morning. And spend a couple hours writing and then switch over to doing my full-time job. And during that phase of like getting the dissertation done, there's no work-life balance at all. It was kind of like work was all consuming. And luckily my dissertation and PhD interests somewhat align or overlap a little bit with my work interests. So it wasn't like I was in two totally different worlds. But now that I'm done with the dissertation, it's been a little bit of... unlearning. Like learning or relearning how to have a life outside of being a PhD student and a full-time employee. So like trying to rediscover hobbies and what to do with free time.
Jesse Butts:Are you still like waking up at 5.30 out of habit or have you...?
Amanda Kass:No. Oh my gosh. No. But it took, it took a little while to like undo that, right. And, and like undo this feeling of like, Oh, I have to be, I have to be like waking up early and being quote unquote productive. And if I'm not being quote, unquote productive, then I'm doing something wrong.
Jesse Butts:So reflecting back a little bit, are there any other areas from your study, from your master's program that you see a relationship to your current work? Like any skills or just any of the topics that you were studying?
Amanda Kass:Yeah. I think, some of the skills that I developed as an undergrad is thinking critically. So, taking a step back and, and trying to see a bigger picture or, engage kind of like critically with the question before just like jumping into it. I think the other big thing I got, especially from the GIS work was around data management and data organization. So I think that's like one of my plugs for why people should do GIS classes. In addition to learning how to do geographic information system work and learning that software, you develop really good, at least for me, you develop really good habits for how you organize and manage your data. And not just data, but like any documents. Like how do you organize Word documents? How do you deal with version control? That's super, I think, practical and helpful and a skill that you develop that can be applicable to kind of any job.
Jesse Butts:What did, what did you have to learn about yourself to find work that would fit you? Especially, ruling out academic careers?
Amanda Kass:I wouldn't say I ruled it out. I think what I would say is what I, what I did rule out is viewing that as the only path and the only marker of success or a good career. And I think what I had to learn about myself, I think what I had to learn in general is that, is that there's lots of other types of jobs and there's other work that is fulfilling. So, you know, one thing that I learned again is like, I really liked this kind of more applied side. I liked the side of doing public policy work that was more in the short term or in the immediacy. So as an example, Illinois, the state of Illinois in the state General Assembly, is working on crafting the budget for the upcoming fiscal year, which will be fiscal year 2023. And what I really enjoy during budget season is being able to read the proposed budget. I get asked by reporters to kind of weigh in of, you know, the governor put forward his budget proposal. What do you think about it? How's the state of Illinois' fiscal situation? Is it improving? Is it declining? And I really like to be being able to engage in that kind of work. And I the nature of academic work is often so longterm. So for example, I just got an article finally knock on wood published, and it took two years from the first submission of the article for that to get published. And that's not even counting the kind of data collection and analysis time. So a two year process for one article. So I guess what I had to learn a little bit about myself too, was it was that I like... I don't like working on just a very long term timeline for projects. I like the mix of short- and long-term. I don't know if that makes any sense.
Jesse Butts:I think, I think it absolutely does. I'm wondering if we could provide a little context for listeners outside of Illinois. When you talk about planning for the state budget and that work. Was it three, four years that Illinois went without any budget? I mean, just, if you could give a little context to why this is such a bigger deal in Illinois than a lot of other states.
Amanda Kass:Yeah. So the, I mean, there are budget battles in every state, and every state has its own kind of like fiscal year cycle. And in some places they have two year budgets, not an annual budget like Illinois. But yeah, it's gosh, long been contentious. I think since I've been working on Illinois finances, which is since 2011, I think it's always been contentious. It kind of reached a peak during the last governor's tenure. So during Governor Rauner's tenure. Governor Rauner was a Republican. There was a Democratic led General Assembly, both in the House and the Senate. And it was like a loggerhead over the budget. And so the state didn't have a budget, a formal budget for two fiscal years. Again, this is why, I like really like public finance and love what I do is that even saying that there was no budget for two years, isn't totally correct. There's many aspects of the kind of state's functions that are on autopilot and that it doesn't require the General Assembly and governor to sign off on a budget for spending to be occurring. And the General Assembly passed funding for K through 12 education. And the governor signed that into law, which is one of the biggest chunks for the state budget. So, there was an impasse over the budget for two years, but not kind of all aspects of the state's finances were affected. And not all aspects of society kind of felt the consequences of the budget crisis.
Jesse Butts:You mentioned that you love your job. For you, how important is job fit? Do you need to find a job that you love? Or is it kind of serendipitous for you that you have?
Amanda Kass:For me, it's huge to find a job that I love. And it's not just about the work that I do. It's also the people that I work with, which is one of the reasons I really love UIC. And I really love CUPPA. And so it's been a really, it's been a really great fit of, I feel like I'm doing meaningful work and I'm getting to do that with people I really enjoy working with.
Jesse Butts:With your job, obviously what you do is, is very public facing. And I don't know if it's a step above and beyond, or part of the job, but, I mean, your writing has appeared in, in Chicago Magazine, Crain's Business Chicago. I've seen you on uh, Chicago Tonight, which is a show on WTTW, which is Chicago's PBS affiliate affiliate. How did, did you start all that? And how does that fit into the job for you? Is, is that an expectation of your role or is that just, I mean, your passion?
Amanda Kass:Yeah. I think that's, that's, I don't know, nice of you to ask and somewhat nice to reflect on. I don't, it's definitely not a requirement of the job, I don't think. I think it's, again, when you were talking about, you know, What kind of like led me down the path, or what did I have to uncover about myself? That's something also that I discovered is that I like, I personally like having that public facing role. I, I find it both like terrifying to go on live TV and live radio, but also really like exciting and, uh, a real, like, I dunno, a feeling of accomplishment after it. And also like a, just a sense of like, you know, I watched Chicago Tonight for a long time. And it felt like, well, I can be on there. Like I knew stuff about Illinois' finances. I know stuff about Chicago's finances. I can speak to these issues. And the way that I got into it actually was from the first job I had in Chicago at the Center for Tax and Budget Accountability. I worked with somebody there who unfortunately has since passed away. Her name was Kathy Miller. And I first get into this job and she's like, Amanda, you need, you need to introduce yourself to this reporter. You're now the person who studies pension. This person has a pension question. You need to call them up and you need to introduce yourself to them. And I was terrified of doing that, and very resistant. It was like, no, no, no. I'm a researcher. I want to sit in my little corner over here and sit on my computer and crunch these numbers. I don't want to call anyone. No. But I was also, you know, new to a job, new to this career. And it was just like, I don't, I don't know, I guess I have to do this. And call that person up and introduce myself and then had to do a public presentation to the League of Women Voters, the Illinois League of Women Voters. Again, another time where it was like very terrifying, and I very much felt like, I don't know what I'm doing. I'm not capable of this. But was just kind of like shoved into doing that. And then found like, okay, I survived, I can do that. And I really, I enjoy talking with people. I enjoy giving public presentations. That's a very long-winded answer of how I came to do these things.
Jesse Butts:It's really fascinating. Do you do some of these as a way to build your brand or, you know, make yourself more attractive as a potential employee to other organizations as you move along in your career?
Amanda Kass:Hmm, that's a good question. I mean, definitely somewhat. Like, I think one of the valuable things that I have, I think is the network, the network that I built in Illinois. And I think some of those connections though, are like a two-way street, especially with reporters. So I can provide analysis to them or help answer a question, but sometimes reporters can help me with, Hey, I saw this news story that's referencing some pending legislation, I can't figure out what the actual bill number is. Can you tell me what that is? Or, Hey, read a story about this lawsuit, I can't find a case number. Like, can you tell me what the case number is? And so I think, yes, it's definitely something I can market or is valuable about myself, but I've also found I really like collaborating with journalists. And I really like this, kind of relationship that scholars can have with journalists as like partnerships, not just a kind of one way street, but a real kind of partnership.
Jesse Butts:Earlier, you were mentioning since you finished your dissertation, unlearning some things or rediscovering hobbies. I'm curious now, how would you describe your relationship to work? How large of a role does it play in your life?
Amanda Kass:That's a really good question. And, yeah, you, you kinda like pose this question, I think in one of your other interviews and I've been thinking about it since then. And I still don't have a good answer. But I think, for me, it not only was I finishing the dissertation, but I was finishing the dissertation during a pandemic. And finishing the dissertation during the pandemic and working from home and working really remotely. And so I think, perhaps, with a lot of people, there's a rethinking of like, What is my relationship to work if I'm working from home? And, I don't have a kind of separation between my home life and my work life, right? Like, it's easy to have your job, or your, or your work kind of creep in and take over. And I think it's really important, to the extent that it's possible, right, that we, that we're kind of like privileged to be in a position that we can have something of a work-life balance to really kind of maintain that. Which is not a good answer at all. I would say my work is interests, but I also think it's really important to kind of have my identity not solely be my career or not solely be my job.
Jesse Butts:What questions should someone who's out of grad school, and they're thinking about pursuing maybe another master's or a PhD or some other advanced degree that differs from what they studied before. What, from your experience, were, were some of the questions that helped you decide to go that urban planning, excuse me, urban planning and policy route after that geography experience?
Amanda Kass:I think the first question is Why. Why is someone doing it? What's your goal? What are you hoping to accomplish with it? I think there's lots of professional master's programs. So I think for some people there can be a kind of real practicality of, I got my undergrad in X and I really want to pursue a job as an urban planner. And I've noticed that everyone who does urban planning has a master's in urban planning. So I really need to get that. I want to pivot my career. And that's why I'm kind of pursuing a master's. I think for PhD, I think there's maybe a little less like practicality, like career question, but I think it's important to reflect on like, why ... Why do you want to pursue this? What are you hoping to get out of it? And reflect on too some of the opportunity costs with going back to grad school, right. It can oftentimes be a pause in your career. It can have long lasting impacts on your kind of salary over time. So I think reflecting on like, Why are you going? What's motivating you? What are you hoping to get out of it? And then I think very practically for somebody who's interested in a PhD is, What financial kind of resources are going to be available to you in your PhD program? One of the key pieces of advice that I got as an undergrad was, Don't go into a PhD program if they're not offering you financial support. So if you're not going to be a funded PhD student in a program, don't pursue that program.
Jesse Butts:Were there any books or Ted talks or anything that you, you saw or read as you were kind of considering a different field of study that might be helpful to somebody else?
Amanda Kass:Sometimes I like to listen to the podcast, How I Built This.
Jesse Butts:The NPR one?
Amanda Kass:Yeah, The NPR one. Cause that often, like, I don't know that that like inspired me or helped me, but I find that like an interesting one. You hear people kind of talking about how they built their company and some of like the pitfalls that they went through in their kind of trajectory.
Jesse Butts:So I'd like to, to wrap up with which I'll completely acknowledge is a pretty selfish question, but as I've been listening to you, I've been realizing how ill-informed I am. And how part of that is that it seems so hard to find sources related to public finance that aren't hyper-partisan. You know, t he headline is, They spent $13 per donut at this whatever meeting. So I'm curious, what advice do you have, aside from following the work that your organization is doing, for people to get a better understanding of what revenue is being collected, and how it's being spent, and how effective all of this is?
Amanda Kass:Yeah, that's a great question. Again, this is one of the challenges of... with public finance. Again, I think there's like a really high bar to kind of get in. Unfortunately it's easy to sensationalize numbers. So, I like your example of, Oh, they spent $12 per donut at a meeting, right. You can really like sensationalize that. Using Illinois as an example, using Illinois' long-term debt and saying, This debt equates to $30,000 per resident. And I think often times, people don't realize debt, it's a long-term obligation, right. It's something that's not going to be paid off in one year. So I think maybe one easy tip or practical thing is, If you're reading a news story and it's got like some scary number in it, some big number, try and take a step back and think of like, What is actually being discussed? Is this a short-term, is this something that actually gets paid off in a year? Or is it, again, if it's, talking about debt, these are long-term obligations. The other thing is, if people are interested, trying to get involved in your local city or your state's budget process. Right. So when the budget cycle is happening, kind of trying to get involved, seeing, like, what does the city council do with the budget process? What do they vote on? What are the biggest sources of revenue? And you can identify those, some through budget documents. All cities and states put out budget documents. Ask your local representative, your city council member like, I'm trying to understand this; help me make sense? Where do my property taxes go? Where does my income tax go? Help me understand where my money goes.
Jesse Butts:All right. Well, thank you, Amanda, for joining me on the show. This was wonderful.
Amanda Kass:And thanks for having me.