The Work Seminar
The Work Seminar
Ep. 36: Finding a Career Outside Your Academic Discipline w/ Author and PhD Zakiya Akerele
Zakiya's debut book Dump Your Degree is a practical guide for thinking beyond academic credentials as you pursue a new career. And she’s followed her own advice, transitioning from the professoriate (with a PhD in religious education) to full-time author.
We delve into her methodology through a step-by-step example of:
- considering different work after or during grad school
- reflecting on and discovering your natural interests, unique talents, and in-depth knowledge
- translating these abilities into relevant full-time, freelance, and self-employment roles
- networking and creating content to highlight your expertise and create your own opportunities
Like many guests have said before, it’s always easier to update your résumé and indiscriminately apply to jobs. But the success rate and job satisfaction of Zakiya’s playbook is much higher, particularly for the liberal arts crowd.
Where to find Zakiya and her book
Dump Your Degree by Zakiya Akerele
Zakiya on TikTok, Instagram, and Facebook
Check out more from The Work Seminar
Visit theworkseminar.com or find @TheWorkSeminar on social media.
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Hey everyone. Thanks for joining me for another episode. I'm your host Jesse Butts. Today we have a bonus episode featuring Zakiya Akerele, a PhD in religious education from Fordham and the author of Dump Your Degree. Zakiya has been kind enough to join us to chat about her expertise helping advanced degree holders control their careers. Zakiya welcome to the show. Thanks for joining us.
Zakiya Akerele:Thank you for having me.
Jesse Butts:Absolutely. So before we talk about your book and the process that you've identified, can you tell us a little bit about your own journey? For example, what happened with your career after earning your PhD in religious education?
Zakiya Akerele:Yeah. So I had finished my degree in 2010. And at that time we were in a recession or maybe trying to come out of one. Regardless, I met a lot of challenges in finding employment. I wanted to join academia, become a professor and I just was not finding full-time employment. I did some adjuncting. Not too much in my field but found some adjunct roles. But after having gone through these transitions of unemployment and underemployment, I tried to figure out a way that I could do work that I enjoyed by creating my own opportunities and not waiting for someone to hire me. So for about three years, I did some consulting work, research, not necessarily directly related to my educational background, but that was able to transfer the skills that I had acquired in higher education were able to transfer into those roles and positions. And from that, I realized that there were many things that I enjoyed doing outside of higher education. So it allowed me to develop my CV in a, in a different, in a unique way. But I subsequently ended up becoming a professor for about five or six years. I, I was on a tenure track in religious studies. I took a break between those five years and did some world traveling and came back to it. And after that transitioned into being a full-time author.
Jesse Butts:Just out of curiosity, what was your area of focus in religious studies?
Zakiya Akerele:Well, I primarily focused on African traditional spirituality. And taught courses in women in religion, but primarily African and African American.
Jesse Butts:Okay. So how long have you been, I believe you used the term full-time author, if I'm remembering correctly, how long have you been in that line of work?
Zakiya Akerele:So it started during the pandemic. I was still teaching and at the time I was, I was pregnant with my second child. And in the middle of the pandemic and I didn't know what to do. I was teaching in the state of Florida. So I don't know if people follow Florida politics too well, but the way they were situating things were a little different from other states. And there was a requirement for me to go back into the classroom in person. And I had just given birth maybe less than two months on top of it still being in the heat of the pandemic. And I just was not interested in, in doing that, going back into the classroom. So I took family leave. And after that ended up not going back.
Jesse Butts:Before we, we kind of dive into your book, was that a hard transition to move away from teaching? Or was it something that at that point you kind of felt like, I'm ready for something different?
Zakiya Akerele:Yes, I was ready for something different. Definitely. I love teaching. And I particularly love teaching in the area that I taught in. I'm passionate about world religions in general. But also just teaching about culture and how people evolved and developed. But I realized that I also like my freedom. And while higher education gave me freedom that many people don't get. Right? So I only taught during the fall and spring. So I had my summers off if I wanted to, sometimes I did teach during summers. But I still wanted more freedom to be able to do things, to be able to spend with my family when I wanted to. And having someone else create a schedule for me wasn't working for my life at that time. So it was, it was a little bittersweet. I, I loved the classroom, but I also was ready to transition out of it.
Jesse Butts:Yeah I mean, a pretty, pretty common tale on, on the podcast. So Zakiya, I, I think perhaps the best way to approach your book, Dump Your Degree, is to run through kind of the hypothetical that the show is based on. So let's say you're in grad school or maybe you've been out a few years and you don't feel like you want to pursue what you studied. You know, whether that would be joining academia or being a practitioner of some sort in your discipline. What do you do when you're in that situation? Where do you even start in your approach to all this?
Zakiya Akerele:Yes. I, I would definitely start with a bit of reflection to see what it is you enjoy doing. I'm a proponent of doing what you enjoy. I know a lot of people say, Well, work is work. It pays the bills, or what have you. But I wish more people would enjoy the work. And even feel passionate about the work that they do. So reflecting on things you enjoy, things that you're talented, naturally talented at. And things that you have skills in, right? That you might have developed, whether it's through your journey through higher education or skills that you've developed, maybe you were self taught in an area, but something that you know, that you can do professionally. And after kind of reflecting on what are the things that I enjoy, what are the things that I'm good at, then doing some research on how those skills, those talents can be used in a career. We live in a, a great time in, in history where you can pretty much make money doing any and everything. Right? If you just do a bit of research, you can find ways to monetize work that you enjoy doing. So those are the two things reflection and then research and getting a plan of action together on what are the steps that it would take for you to transition into that field.
Jesse Butts:You know, Let's say I've, I've gone through this reflection and I've, I've figured out, These are things I enjoy that I have some skill at and I have some aptitude. How roughly does that process work of translating those skills to a job hunt. Particularly if you've been in academia. You know, the skill at first might be teaching, but kind of once you suss it out, it's, you know, comfortable presenting in a large group. Is there kind of a way to, to maybe break down some of these skills into more atomic particles and as we kind of think about what we'd like to do instead?
Zakiya Akerele:Yes, definitely. There are many skills that can be used even in freelancing, right? So I'm thinking of someone in academia. Myself, I transitioned into freelancing doing proofreading, and editing, and things like that because of my experience as a professor reading papers and just having that research and writing experience myself. It doesn't have to be so broad. It can be broken down into things that you are skilled at that can pretty much bring in an income while you're even thinking about the larger thing that you want to do. A lot of times people are just looking at, Oh, I have teaching and that's it. But there are so many things that teaching, or like I mentioned, research or writing or communication that can transfer into different avenues that will be able to bring you in an income. For example, right after I finished my doctorate, again, I mentioned that it was very challenging for me to find work in religious studies. Like people weren't looking for... that wasn't in hot demand. Right? But I did find work in research doing research management. And while they didn't specifically put, you know, the degree that I had as a requirement, I was able to lead with those skills. I was able to secure an interview and subsequently become hired as a consultant, doing research, even though the research background was completely different because of that, that skill, that was transferable. Also the organization that I worked for, they were particularly looking to connect with individuals in this community. They were from another state and they were doing research specifically in Florida. So not only did my skills matter, but my connections mattered. So I was able to leverage the people I knew, my connections to the larger community to be able to kind of show that I was a resource to them. So there are other things that you have that you might not be thinking are directly related to work, but they are. And if you lead with those things, that's why I wrote the book Dump Your Degree because most people solely look at the degree. What they have the educational background in. But that's not the end all be all to transitioning, but also to just getting higher, even within your field.
Jesse Butts:How do you recommend people discover, I guess, for lack of a better term, those maybe indirect skills that ... like you were talking about, with research or like I mentioned, comfortable presenting in front of large groups. How do you recommend people, maybe unpack that a little bit?
Zakiya Akerele:You know, one thing I've done is I've asked friends that were close to me. I said, If you could see me doing something aside from what you know me to do, what would it be? What are, what are some things that you think that I am good at? Because a lot of times people can see things that you can't see within yourself. And that's helped guide me as well. I'm like, you know what? I do enjoy doing that. I never thought about that. So people who you encounter on a regular basis may be able to highlight some of your talents that you're not aware of. Or that you, you take for granted, so to speak. Another thing would be, again, going back to the reflection part. Some things that we enjoyed doing as children that we kind of got conditioned away from because we were taught maybe they weren't functional or they didn't offer stability. Sometimes those very passions that we had in our youth could actually be something that is in line with our career down the road. So whatever might just be a hobby, could actually be your profession
Jesse Butts:Yeah, I have to believe that I'm not the only podcaster who asked too many questions as a kid, and then decided to start an interview show.
Zakiya Akerele:Oh goodness. I might need to get my son ready for a podcast. Because that kid asks a million questions a day.
Jesse Butts:It's a, it's a great way to, to do it and, and have fun. But yeah, sorry for that little tangent. So, you know, in the process that we've discussed, we've reflected and figured out the skills and kind of the careers that, that look interesting. And we've kind of translated maybe that academic language to professional language, business language. What do you do next? S hould people just get the resume ready and jump on the job boards? Or what do you recommend at this point?
Zakiya Akerele:I definitely don't recommend just jumping on the job boards because unfortunately, when you have AI that's skimming through resumes, you might not be translating what you have to offer very well on a resume. So I definitely... yeah, of course, get it ready. Have people look over it. But be open to rethinking how you present your resume. But also the main thing would be to reach out to your connections. Right? So people who are already in your circle of influence, your family, friends, letting them know, putting it out there, Hey, I'm in the process of transitioning from this field to another. If you or anyone you know has any insights or connections or anything that could be helpful to me along this journey, I'd appreciate it. So first starting there, because it's really about who you know in any industry, any field. Who you know is much better than what you know in many cases. Of course you have to know something in order to do the job well. But then I would also recommend getting on social media, particularly LinkedIn and other job sites because people need to know that you're available and they can know that by you don't have to scream, Hey, I'm looking for this. Even though that has been helpful to, to many people. But also producing content within that new field of interest to showcase that you are familiar with it. That you are open to helping or adding value to others within that particular field. And just getting yourself out there. And then also checking with maybe alumni groups on LinkedIn to see, like looking at profiles, who's connected in that industry as well that you can develop a relationship with and say, Hey, this is, you know, I see that we went, both, went to X, Y, and Z school. I'm really interested in this. Do you have any insights for helping me transition to this field? But connections are very key in making that transition. I think even more so than just hopping on a job board.
Jesse Butts:Have you found with your clients or with yourself that connections, you know, maybe some close ones and maybe, you know, somebody from undergrad that you haven't talked in quite a bit, are they generally pretty open to grabbing a cup of coffee or whatever it might be?
Zakiya Akerele:Yes, definitely. But of course you don't wanna, come out like salesy or, or needy or just so focused on self. You want to, like I said, build relationship. You could start by building a rapport first. Mentioning some commonalities, complimenting some of their posts. Letting them know, Hey, I really enjoyed this post that you wrote about whatever it is. But letting them know you're not just there to be a taker. But even if you're like in a position where you're like, Look, I see this job opening and they're the right person for, you know, me to get to in order for me to have this opportunity. There are still some ways that you can create a conversational approach to developing the relationship instead of just saying, Hey, can you help me get this job? But I definitely see most people want to help because they've been there themselves.
Jesse Butts:You mentioned too putting content out there about what you're interested in, what you want to be doing. How do you put out content where you know you're not an expert, but you want to come across as someone who can do this role or be in this occupation successfully?
Zakiya Akerele:I've heard some advice from others that say, You don't need to be an expert, but that you just need to be more knowledgable in an area than someone who doesn't know anything about it. So having a first step, you might have a first degree knowledge in a particular area, and you've developed a level of skillset at that level of knowledge and putting that out there. So say it's graphic design or some type of artistic talent, right? You don't have to be Picasso, but you might know how to do some basic skills in this and say, Hey, I am available. Or look at what I've created or I know how to make flyers. Right? You don't have to be an expert for many years to have some level of skill set that people may find value in. So don't set yourself back saying, Oh, well, I'm not there yet. Many people are not there yet. But also continuing your, your education journey, not necessarily through higher education in an institution like going back to get another degree, but maybe you get certifications, both free and paid courses that will help you develop your skills so that you continue to grow all while also creating content at every step of your journey.
Jesse Butts:I, I assume you're, you're trying to influence two main groups. I'll call them peer influencers, you know, people who will say, Okay, clearly Zakiya really knows what she's talking about. I will recommend her or, you know, try to give her a leg up wherever I can. And then the other group I'm thinking about are the actual hiring managers who need to know that this person can do X, Y, Z in the job and they bring this unique thing. Is, is there anyone else we should be considering when we're creating this type of content?
Zakiya Akerele:I would say yourself because a lot of times we think of hiring managers, we think of recruiters, we think of those gatekeepers or the people we need to impress to get a job. But you also have opportunity to create your own career without going that route as well. So, so for example, I mentioned freelancing before or consulting, right? So focusing on how to develop skills that even if those individuals aren't open to hiring you or bringing you on. Your skill set is still at a level where you can create job opportunities for yourself. So yes, definitely develop your skills. Get, like I mentioned, certifications, take courses that will help you in your career development. But also do that for yourself so that at any time, where those jobs might not be available to you or they might not be available right away, you still have the opportunity to earn an income and, and have a career while you wait.
Jesse Butts:And one thing I should probably clarify too, when we're talking about creating content, I know so many think this means, Oh, I need to start a blog or a YouTube or TikTok channel, but it's probably much broader and, and you know, probably much more incremental than that. Is, is that fair?
Zakiya Akerele:Yes, definitely. I know a lot of times... even myself, I, I have these grand ideas and I'm like, I gotta jump and do everything all at once. And it's definitely incremental as you mentioned. Doing one or two things, learning those skills as much as possible, or even trying a little bit of them all and, and seeing which one feels best to you. So a podcast works for you, whereas someone else it might not. Right? But a blog might be better because they write better. There are people like myself who are not big fans of social media but have to get on there and might not want to be on all social media platforms at once. So which one connects or aligns more so with your personality and the things that you enjoy and then focusing there.
Jesse Butts:Let's say someone's in this journey. They've been making connections. They've been networking. They've been producing content that shows their skills, their aptitude. Going into the job board alone, it can be not the best path, but is this something you're doing simultaneously with all these activities? I guess I'm, I'm asking, ineloquently, How do all of these activities coalesce into finding and landing that job?
Zakiya Akerele:Of course, many different approaches at once can be helpful. Right. Because you never know which one will land. So yes, apply for jobs. It depends on the field as well. Right. Because I know certain jobs really it is about who you know, who can open doors for you. Whereas others you know, you might have more luck by just going out on a job board or posting your resume on LinkedIn. And actually that is a good way. At least letting recruiters know that you're open. Right. I think there's a, a button that you can press where only the recruiters can see that you're open for work. So putting yourself out there, applying for jobs, connecting with connections and seeing what's available or letting people know that you are available to add value in whatever area this is. Reaching out to alum. All of those things can work. And you have to just try them out to see which works best, particularly for your industry and your career journey. So, that's the approach that I would take. Of course, I would suggest doing the relationship building first and simultaneously throughout the whole journey because typically making those connections helps individuals land roles, more so and more often than just going at it blind.
Jesse Butts:Pretty early in the show, you mentioned creating your own opportunities. And you mentioned that, you know, this is an age where with a little bit of research, you can kind of make money doing almost anything. What exactly does that mean, Creating your own opportunities and making money? I mean, does this mean you have to be an entrepreneur or a freelancer? Are there ways to kind of take this approach maybe, and maybe we could define that a little bit, and still find full-time employment if you're more interested in working for a company than working solo?
Zakiya Akerele:Yes. I definitely think, people should, even if you are working for a company, you should always have something in place where at any time, if you're let go, companies close, what have you, you won't just be stuck high and dry. Can't earn a living, can't pay your bills. I know I was taught, Get a good job, it's stable, you have benefits and then you retire and move on with life. But we recognize that that's not really a reality, right? That stability is an illusion. At any time, anything could happen. So if you are working for others, still develop your career in a way where you're doing things on the side that won't stress you and take too much time. But that at any time, if you are let go, you still have something to fall back on. I know we used to say that about degrees. Oh, that getting a degree or getting even, a, a graduate degree, it'll give you the opportunity to have something to fall back on. But we are seeing now that not even the degrees alone um, offering that opportunity. So, having multiple streams of income or opportunities to create income is key. Whether that's through freelancing, whether that's through consulting, whether that's through content creation, because we see content creators are getting paid substantially now. Whatever that is, that is in alignment with something that you enjoy, which would be my preference, something that you're passionate about, so that at least when you're doing it, it doesn't feel like, Oh, this is an extra labor that I'm adding on to my full-time job.
Jesse Butts:And I'm glad you brought up degrees again, because I, I wanted to circle back to that Dump Your Degree, and kind of how literally to take that. For example, I I have a master's in writing and publishing, and I primarily work in marketing. And I haven't led with my degree, but when people hear you have a master's in writing, you know, in marketing, there's a ton of writing. So people are glad to hear that. And I feel like most jobs, in general, you know, they're like, Oh, and Jesse has a strong writing background. That's that's valuable. One guest in particular, she had a PhD in literature. And she said that was a stumbling block for employers because they assumed, Oh my God, this person's gonna analyze everything to death. They're going to put in all of this, arcane, esoteric vocabulary. And, you know, it was a, a little bit of a roadblock. And she kind of deemphasized that, and how do we, or when should we kind of dump the degree? Like what points in the job process should we be maybe emphasizing or deemphasizing, our graduate degree specifically.
Zakiya Akerele:When you see that it's not opening opportunities for you in your career. I learned early on right after finishing my PhD probably within the first six months or so. And I was like, this is not working, so I figured out ways to structure ... back then we were using cover letters more. I don't think people read them as much now. But I was emphasizing more so my talents and skills and the things that I could bring of value to that role as opposed to the degrees, especially when I was interviewing. And to be honest with you, there were times that I actually took a degree or two off of my resume to apply for certain jobs. And that was because I knew that people would have a bias in the hiring process because they thought, Okay, this person is overqualified. Ironically, some of those jobs were paying the same amount or at the same level as those were, that were requiring my level of education, even though I took the degrees off. So you have to really play around with it. It's a case by case situation. But when you see that people may be thinking you're overqualified or there's not a direct match or they're overlooking the skills that you might have to offer as opposed to, Oh, this person is highly educated. And they might, like you said, be bringing in all this stuff that we don't need. I would suggest you revisiting how you could deemphasize your degrees.
Jesse Butts:Is it just things that they don't need? Or do they sometimes have a concern, I don't wanna pay for somebody who, you know, has, multiple degrees, they might think that they need to earn more. Is that ever a concern or, or not particularly?
Zakiya Akerele:I have had that happen where I was in a job interview. It was related, I wanna say to like writing or I can't remember what it was. Many years ago, but it wasn't, definitely wasn't related to my degrees. And the person was like, Oh, HR says you wanna earn top dollar because you have a PhD. You know, they kind of brought their bias with them in the interview process. And I actually had one personal experience where I was hired. I did not let them know that I had a PhD. I did let them know that I had a master's. I was hired and I was on the process of transitioning out of that role. And so they were looking for people to fill my position in others. And I overheard the manager who was in the process of looking through resumes saying, Oh, this person has a PhD. What does she want this job for? And they were about to, you know, basically throw hers to the side because of her level of education. And I don't think I was supposed to hear that. And it, it convicted me in a way, cause I was like, Okay, should I say something? They don't know I have one, but I overheard this. And I said, You know what? You don't know why this person needs this role. And I don't think the person had a PhD. I think they were a PhD student. I explained to her, I said I have a PhD. I didn't put that on my resume when you all were hiring me. I was on my way out of the door at this time, so it didn't matter. And I explained to her that she may be more than capable to do this role and you're adding bias based on her level of education. And she was shocked. That ended the conversation. It was pleasant. It wasn't, you know, it wasn't uncomfortable. I just had to be honest with her. So, yeah, there are times where people just look at it like, oh, why would this person want this job? Or we are gonna have to pay them more. Or, it is.
Jesse Butts:Are there any other aspects of I'll call it the dumping your degree philosophy? Any kind of bigger things we haven't mentioned in the idea of dumping your degree when you look for, for different work that we haven't touched upon yet?
Zakiya Akerele:Really the title is not to be taken literally. It's more so to say, Hey, let's put it to the side for a minute. Right? Cause a lot of times, especially with my students, where they were about to graduate, and I'm teaching undergrads. And they're like, Oh as soon as I get this degree, jobs are just gonna be lining up. And I'm like, No, that's not how it works. So you might not want to lead or only focus on the degree, meaning they do themselves a disservice by not looking at their talents, not looking at their skills, not looking at their connections and looking at how all of those things together will create the opportunity. Not just the degree. So many people have been told, Oh, get the degree. I was told that, Get the degree, you'll get the job at the end. It feels like everybody has a degree now. Like who doesn't have a degree? And then the way it's, it's going, many people are even getting graduate degrees in order to, they feel like they need them to better their chances in the job market. Or stand out from the competition. So really there's a devaluing of many degrees. And so what do you do when you and everybody else has that same degree and they're applying for the same job? What do you have that is different from them that will add more value to that role and to that company? So that's what I mean by dumping your degree. You can dump it and say, You know what? I'm not going to work in this field ever again. I'm gonna transition my career and I'm gonna look at something completely different. Something that I might not even have a degree in. And that's fine too. But either way, whether it's a figurative dumping of your degree or a literal dumping of your degree, I just want you to be able to focus on your skills, your talent, your connections, and other things that you have that will be valuable to whatever, you know, your career journey looks like.
Jesse Butts:One thing that you've brought up a few times is you recommend people finding work they enjoy versus just approaching like work is work. It's something that occupies me between nine to five. But you know, it does seem that there's quite a spectrum of enjoyable work. There's, Yeah, I, I, I kind of like it to like, I love it. I'm obsessed. This is my purpose in life. How do we determine, I guess that level of enjoyment that makes sense for us as we look for work. You know, especially coming out of grad school where, I mean, we've spent so much time and energy in our field and, for listeners to this podcast, they've decided that that just isn't working out for them anymore. So they're very used to putting their heart, soul, and mind into their work. What do you do after that? Like how do you approach that enjoyment in work?
Zakiya Akerele:There are different degrees of enjoyment. For example, I had a, a roommate in college who enjoyed, literally enjoyed, cleaning so much so she started a cleaning business, even though I forgot what her degree was... it was something related to music. So she had a passion for music, but also started a cleaning business because she said it, it helped her decompress, relieve stress, things like that. The way we look at work, when we think of work, we think it has to be something so bright and shiny and amazing. But it doesn't have to be at that level to be enjoyable, to be something you even are passionate about. So I would definitely just strip away all of the outside noise and reflect on, What is it that you enjoy? Even if it's something that you would consider menial things. A lot of times people's hobbies or just mundane things that they find pleasure in are ways that they can develop a career that are often overlooked because everybody's gunning for the corner office or something big and bright, you know? And there's nothing wrong with either, but I'm just saying that people should be more reflective on looking at what it is that they enjoy.
Jesse Butts:How big of a role should work play in life? I mean, should it be strictly nine to five? Is there something wrong when people love their work and want to spend, I don't know, 60 hours a week at it? How do you tend to advise your, your clients or readers in this respect?
Zakiya Akerele:Whatever works for them. I come from a family... like my grandfather, he was working all the way into his eighties. And we had to stop him. Right. He would've still been working if we didn't say, Hey, you need to sit out. There are people like that, that just find passion and drive in their work. And that's what motivates them. They can't sit down. And then there are others like myself who are maybe more on the opposite end. Like I wanna do as little work as possible. I prefer to spend time with having experiences, whether it's through traveling with my family. And then also there are people that are probably in the middle. It just... what works for you, but also what works for those that you were responsible for. Because I know that there are some people that are so focused on work that they neglect not only themselves, but their families. That's not a good thing, right? So if people around you who you care about and love are not happy with how you're working, you might wanna shift some things. But if you're at a point in your life where you're the only person that matters, you know, you only have yourself to be responsible for, and you enjoy working 60 hours a week, fine. Make sure that you're taking care of yourself though. I don't recommend people focusing on work just as, I have to do this to survive. I really recommend people look for things that they enjoy, that they find pleasure in. Or if they can't find work in that, or if the work doesn't give them that feeling that they find a way to do that work, the least amount of time possible. So if you're working, if there's a way for you to work for yourself, only a few hours a week, fine. If that is a few hours a day, fine. But make sure you have time to enjoy life. Not just make work the focus of it.
Jesse Butts:So beyond your book, Dump Your Degree, are there any other resources that you would recommend for our listeners?
Zakiya Akerele:Yes, I would recommend if you're in the process of transitioning your career, there are career transition coaches and programs that help people who are looking to transition. Cause sometimes you need somebody to guide you along that transition journey. I offer services primarily in group settings in that way, but there are also other avenues to approach that as well. Just doing a little research online and typing in career transition consulting or career transition coaching.
Jesse Butts:Where can people find your book and more about you?
Zakiya Akerele:Yes. My book is available on Amazon, Barnes and Noble, Walmart, many online retailers. Or you can go to ZakiyaAkerele.com and my book is available through my website as well. And that's where you can find me. I'm also on Facebook, TikTok, and Instagram @ZakiyaAkerele.
Jesse Butts:All right. And I'll be sure to include all that in the show notes. Well, Zakiya thank you again for joining us. This was a wonderful conversation.
Zakiya Akerele:Thank you for having me.