What you NEED to know before you pursue a Career in Pharma with Dr. Nerissa Kreher

Ever wondered about transitioning from clinical medicine to the biotech and pharmaceutical world? 

In this episode, we dive into the world of pharma—a non clinical career path that has taken on an almost mythical quality. It’s viewed as either the "dark side" - if you go there you are working for the enemy. Or it’s the "holy grail”- a path that lets you use your medical experience, pays similar compensation but gives you your weekends off!

So what is the truth!? What is the reality of a career in pharma?

Today Dr. Nerissa Kreher of Industry MD Coach is going to help us answer these questions.

You’ll learn 

• Who might struggle with a career in pharma- aka who should NOT pursue this path 
• Practical advice on how to get a foot in the door in pharma, including the crucial factor that can drastically increase your chances of success.

And- the question you’ve been dying to know- how much time do they really spend in meetings??

Whether you’re contemplating a move to pharma or just curious about career transitions, this episode is a must-listen!

Guest Links
Linkedin - https://www.linkedin.com/in/nerissa-kreher-md-mba-1387465/
Website - https://industrymdcoach.com/
Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/pharmaindustrymdcoach/
Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/industrymdcoach

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Click here to book your FREE 30 min Career Clarity Call.

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Transcript

0:17

For those of us who are burnt out, feeling unfulfilled and depleted in clinical medicine. There's this one nonclinical option that has taken on almost this mythical quality. It's probably the most talked about and searched about nonclinical option in the Facebook groups. That I'm a part of. And if you haven't guessed it yet, it's the pharma industry. So pharma has taken on this almost mythical quality either. It's the dark side. If you go there, you're working for the enemy. Or it's like this holy grail. This career path. That can use your medical degree and clinical experience. Pays a similar compensation, but oh yeah, it has weekends off. You have vacations and flexibility. But with that then comes the idea that it's ultra competitive and it's hard to get a foot in the door. There's all of these myths and ideas circulating about pharma. And what I want to do today is bring this non-clinical career path. Back down to earth snap, back to reality. Oh, that goes Gavin. We're going to examine the reality of it. And since I know very minimal about pharma. I decided to bring on a guest expert and who better to do that then Dr. Nerissa. Industry MD coach. She trained as a pediatric endocrinologist and right out of fellowship began her career in pharma and a medical affairs role. And she now has more than 18 years of experience working in biotech and pharma and has helped countless physicians, uh, transition into a career in pharma as well. Today, we're having a conversation to demystify pharma. Is it actually a good option for people who is it right for who would not drive in pharma? And once you decide you want to do it, how do you actually get started? And this episode, we covered the good, the bad, the ugly of what a career in pharma actually looks like. and during the conversation, the risk of reveals, the one thing you have to focus on that drastically increases your chances. Of getting a foot in the door for this mythical pharma world. So excited to bring you in to this highly revealing and tangible conversation. Let's get to the show. You're listening to life after medicine, the podcast for health professionals who want to make a difference, make a living, and still have the freedom to enjoy their lives. My name is Chelsea Turgeon, and my mission is to help you, the lost health professional, find your authentic path to helping others and generating stable income without having to sacrifice your own health and happiness in the process.

Chelsea: 2:58

Hello, my loves. Welcome back to a another episode of the life after medicine podcast. Thank you so much for pressing play today. And I'm here with a special guest, Dr. Nerissa Crare of industry MD coach. And we're going to explore transitioning to a career in pharma and biotech, You transitioned pretty early on in your career, how did you know that transitioning into pharma was the right choice for you?

Nerissa: 3:23

So I actually wasn't planning to make a transition when I did I was slated for a clinical research role in academia. And unfortunately, the role was cut. this was through my spouse was going through a match process. And so a complicated move across the country. they offered me a job at mass general, in a clinical role. And so I think what I knew was that's not what I wanted. So all through fellowship, I had not really enjoyed being in my clinics day to day. What I had enjoyed was being in the hospital and doing my clinical research work. So instead of taking that role, which was a scary decision because we were a young family moving to Boston. we really, needed the income. I just sat back and thought this is really not what resonates with me. Through my network, I shared my resume with someone who worked in pharma. She was actually a sales representative and she shared it with her company. They're a company that market a recombinant human growth hormone. And so they actually asked me to look at this role in medical affairs. And I thought, I might as well consider this. it's not something that I was seeking, but it allowed me to do research because I was involved in a phase four registry study. I really took the chance and I said, you know, I'm young in my career. If it doesn't work out, I can go back, but I loved it from day one. and really never looked back.

Chelsea: 5:02

So one thing that I think is interesting is you never took a clinical attending job. It was right out of fellowship that you moved into. medical affairs. I think a lot of people struggle to, even if they don't enjoy the clinical work during fellowship, they struggle to trust that clarity. And there's a lot of doubt and second guessing and feeling like, well, if I don't get into clinical now, it'll be too late. So how did you work through that and how did you really trust that clarity and sort of accept that you were going to take a different path?

Nerissa: 5:31

As physicians, we go through this somewhat arbitrary process. The path is laid for us. We're not interviewing for jobs in a way that most people are. And so we are sort of on this path that is tried and true. And we trust it. I really appreciate it. Coach people to think about their intuition and, you know, this listening to your gut. that though, it's easy to say that, but I've also found throughout my career that if you're not careful, you can get pretty numb to, What do you actually like? What are you actually feeling? and so I think some of this is a process of sitting with yourself and getting comfortable with knowing your likes, your dislikes, and How does that make you feel? Even if it is in your gut, is it something that's exciting? It really is going inward and listening to yourself, which for those of us that are type A overachievers, sometimes I think we push that down a lot and just go on the path that. Maybe even someone else in our life has wanted for us versus what we're wanting for ourselves.

Chelsea: 6:49

Yeah, a hundred percent. So now kind of walk us through how you got from that initial role in medical affairs where, you know, day one, you loved it, never look back, and then now to where you are today, what has that journey been like?

Nerissa: 7:03

I've been at a lot of companies and I've moved between medical affairs and clinical development throughout my career. So after that first role, I stayed at that company for a couple of years, and then was recruited to another company. And it was like the perfect role because it was a hybrid role, which doesn't happen very often they wanted part medical affairs and part clinical development. And my hiring manager was a vice president of clinical development, very, well experienced drug developer. And so it was an opportunity for me to be mentored by him, but still do some medical affairs that I was comfortable with. Over the course of the 20 years, I've had an opportunity to be promoted. And through that took my first chief medical officer role about seven years ago and have been a chief medical officer since then. I'm currently working as a consultant chief medical officer or part time and also on the board of directors of a public biotech company.

Chelsea: 8:06

So for people who don't totally know exactly what the day to day of that would be, which me, I'm one of those people. What is some of the day to day? Things that you immerse yourself in.

Nerissa: 8:15

Most of my work has been in small startup biotech. So, you know, the, not the big Pfizer's Novartis of the world, but startup companies who are early in their funding cycles, moving into the public markets. And that's really where I enjoy working. So my role as chief medical officer, it goes from being very much in the weeds Things like designing clinical trial protocols, reviewing those protocols with a small team, perhaps to working with investors with a CEO to talk about our science to talk about the clinical development strategy. And also, I should highlight probably, working closely with regulatory affairs. So going to the FDA, going to the European. Equivalent of the FDA, which is called EMA. it's fun because it is a wide variety of work that might be very tactical one day and very strategic another day.

Chelsea: 9:14

how much of the time are you in meetings?

Nerissa: 9:15

Yeah. so a good deal of the time. I might be meeting with my team thinking specifically about clinical development. I might be meeting with our whole leadership team talking about performance of different teams. Would probably say between any one day, 60 percent of the time.

Chelsea: 9:36

In the work that you're doing, like, what has surprised you the most, What has been a pleasant surprise about the work that you've done?

Nerissa: 9:43

I think the biggest surprise is going back to what I mentioned about investors. as you move up, you have more and more opportunity to meet with investors, speak with them. I'm straight biology major, never did any business courses or anything. And I actually found that I really enjoyed those conversations with investors because some of them are PhDs. And so, you know, we go very deep into the science and if they're not, I find that their questions are often very insightful questions that I might not have thought about because either, So seemingly obvious that I haven't asked myself the question, or it really is a question that kind of comes out of left field, but has merit. And so it keeps you on your toes. and also you get exposed to the whole cycle of how we raise money, how we execute on raising said money. and so that piece of it has been really fascinating for me.

Chelsea: 10:42

Yeah, and it sounds like also just how dynamic it can be working with people from different like disciplines and kind of with different educational and experiential backgrounds. And then when you come together working on a common thing, how you guys are all bringing different perspectives and approaches to the whole process.

Nerissa: 10:59

Absolutely. In fact, it's one of the things that I talk to people about when I'm coaching potential physicians that, we live in sort of a bubble in medicine that everyone understands our language, we can speak it, and we sort of all are on the same page. In biotech and pharma, you're all of the sudden around People that are, have finance degrees, people that come with operational backgrounds, and so you're forever learning from other people and other disciplines, which I find, very rewarding and that forever learner piece is very satisfied in biotech.

Chelsea: 11:39

People who are unfulfilled in clinical medicine, they can look at pharma and as like, put it on this pedestal as this perfect escape route where, oh, I can use my medical degree. Oh, I can receive like a pretty similar compensation, but then have my weekends off and have more like flexibility. It's more like a nine to five. Who is pharma the right choice for?

Nerissa: 11:59

So that's a really important part. Chelsea. I think any physician who is looking at a career transition just because they're burnt out. It's not the right way to approach it. Right? I mean, they really need to understand why are they burnt out, and get in a better mental space before they're making a massive change. But related to your question specifically, I think to work in pharma, one, you have to be a team player. So if they're not willing to sit back, listen to other people openly, consider other opinions. Pharma is going to be a tough road. I think that humbleness that comes with being able to sit back, listen to other people's opinions is really important. So that's one that Having the patients to see things go slower than they typically happen in medicine. And that might be funny to say, right? Because now we are seeing, things take a lot longer approvals, et cetera. But, the cycle in pharma can just be and I think it's important for us to understand that we can't just be slower. There are certain times that we want things fast, but you know, there's an approval process and it has to run up the chain and somebody else might have a different opinion to get sign off or something. So being able to bring some patience to the role and understand that you might not be the only decision maker. Those are a couple of things that I highlight to people. And then, I think solution oriented is a very important piece. So it's not just identifying what the problems are, but helping find solutions.

Chelsea: 13:43

So it sounds like one of the things, what you're saying is, if autonomy is a really high value for you, Then pharma might not be the best option because you are like a part of the team. There's other people making decisions. You don't get to have that quick speed of like doing things on your own. Does that totally

Nerissa: 14:00

agree with that? I do. Now, there are some roles in pharma for physicians that are, still team oriented, but maybe less so more of an individual contributor. If I had to rank, I would typically put pharmacovigilance or drug safety more in that individual contributor, but you're still working with a team. You know, medical affairs, clinical development, many more people are weighing in to the work that you're doing every day. I Do think if you're someone who's highly autonomous, pharma might be difficult.

Chelsea: 14:31

For people who are trying. To get into pharma. It can also feel like a really intimidating field to break into. I see this in Facebook groups all the time. Like there's a lot of scarcity and there's a lot of Oh, it's hard to get a foot in the door. And so can you just sort of talk us through what are some of the maybe common myths that people believe about the industry? And like, where have you found them to not be true?

Nerissa: 14:54

the most common one that comes to mind is I call it, I'm just a, I'm the justice syndrome. So, you know, I'm just a family medicine physician or I'm just a pediatrician and they think that if they're not, an oncologist or, that they can't get a role in pharma and it's, Really not true, all types of physicians can get roles in pharma. Some are a little easier, and some might take a little longer. but I love to tell this story about a client I worked with who was a pediatric child abuse specialist. And she landed a pharmacovigilance role. And so she's the perfect example of there is no wrong specialty to pursue a role in pharma. The other one that happens a lot. Someone will say, well, all the job descriptions say, I need three plus years of pharma experience or five plus years of pharma experience. you know, we talk about job descriptions being aspirational. Of course, they want someone with experience. But I typically say to people they should be applying for jobs that are five plus or less years of experience. That's a pretty entry level role. That happens a lot. the other one is I don't have any business experience, so I'm not qualified. And that's okay. There are plenty of people with business experience in pharma. They're not looking to hire you for business experience. And actually, you know, the other thing is physicians. We sell ourselves short all the time, because as I talked to a physician, I They start telling me about how they're, you know, running their clinic or they're implementing something in the clinic they're working in. That's business experience, right?

Chelsea: 16:42

Those are things that I see a lot too. Just people thinking they don't have enough experience. They don't have the right background that they just like need to. all of these things before they can start applying, but in your experience, obviously there's like different variables and stuff at play, but a baseline, is it enough to have. finished residency or like what is sort of the baseline level that you really need to be eligible?

Nerissa: 17:04

There certainly are people who transition with only their MD and not any clinical experience. Now, Many of those folks are people at very high caliber medical schools, and they're recruited to go into VC firms or investment banking firms, which then touch pharma. I think for medical directors, clinical development, medical affairs. I typically recommend people do their residency, especially if it's someone who's talking about quitting residency and trying to move into pharma. I really encourage them to get that clinical experience. If it's specialty training, whatever it might be. But I don't want people to walk away with the idea that if they're only an MD, they don't have residency training for some reason that they couldn't. It's just a higher bar and it's going to take longer and more work. after that, your residency training. That counts as clinical experience. I remind people of that as well, right? I mean, it's like arbitrary to think that our residency wasn't clinical experience. I mean, it was. and so just thinking about how they position that in their resume is important as well.

Chelsea: 18:17

I think like physicians in general will just like really write ourselves off if we don't meet like literally everything. And we always think of the rules instead of the exceptions, which is fair sometimes, but also It doesn't let us have our own individual journey and story not everyone's going to be the exception, but like, if this is something you want to do and you didn't go to residency and you only have your MD, like, it's not impossible and I think that's helpful and important to know.

Nerissa: 18:43

Absolutely, what I say to people is remember with just just your MD, you have more. education and training than most people working in pharma, right? I mean, there are lots of people that have bachelor's degrees. There are lots of people who don't have a doctorate degree. And so, as you said, we set such a high bar for ourselves because that's how we've accomplished getting to where we are.

Chelsea: 19:10

What would you say are like the most important pieces of what you need to focus on if you're wanting to transition into a role in pharma.

Nerissa: 19:17

Resume versus CV, professional resume is really important as compared to an academic CV. And then Really, really important is networking networking is really critical. The more live people you can get your resume in the hands of much better chances of getting in.

Chelsea: 19:35

When you say networking, what does that actually look like? And do you have any like tips or best practices for how to do that? Because I think the word itself can feel really intimidating. And like, there's all this like corporate language that we don't know. And so, for somebody who feels intimidated by that word, is there a way for you to break it down? Into what that could actually look like.

Nerissa: 19:55

Yeah, I love that. And that's really a great point. Maybe we should just call it connecting because really, that's all it is connecting with people. so what I recommend to people first. Think about your current network. Who do you know that already works in biotech and pharma? And if you look at, for example, your residency class or your fellowship class, it's possible that someone from your programs is already in pharma. Reach out to that person, get to know your neighbors. It's funny how many people, someone's spouse or partner already works in pharma. And so that's an immediate network, you know, in the house right beside yours. and then I spend most of my time on LinkedIn. that's where biotech and pharma people live. So you can search, pharma physician or physician in pharma. Medical director and look at companies that you might be interested in find the physicians again because we're colleagues. We want to help each other. Reach out to physicians who are already working in pharma. I'm also a big goal setter, and I think that many of us like to sort of keep track and set goals for ourselves. So with my clients, I set a networking goal. How many calls, how many outreaches are you going to do? And then, you know, accountability around that.

Chelsea: 21:21

I love that cause it makes it like a lot more tangible of like, just like reaching out to people. when you reach out to somebody, do you have any tips for like, what even to say? Is it just like, Hey, I'm wondering what it's like working in this company. I'm interested in getting into this.

Nerissa: 21:35

Yeah, I think it's really similar to what you just said. I typically would suggest people, you know, brief introduction. I'm exploring pharma as a career transition. I would love to speak with you and understand your experience at XYZ company. could you spare 15 minutes? Right. I mean, you're not asking for an hour or even half an hour, but if you can get someone for 15 minutes. That's a really nice touch point.

Chelsea: 22:00

I love that idea of like really asking just saying exactly what it is you have in mind and then asking like, could you spare this amount of time just to make it really concrete? you're putting the ask out there right at the beginning. And then on the actual call, what is sort of the best approach to that? Is it literally just like, you're going in and listening for like, what is their day like? Or. how they got the job or like, what are some of the main questions that you would potentially recommend asking?

Nerissa: 22:24

You want to obviously understand what is their role. let's use clinical development as an example. If you already know, that's their role. Maybe you want to ask a question. Like, could you walk me through what a typical day looks like for you? or. Maybe there's not a typical day. Can you walk me through what several typical days might look like? you might want to ask a question about, what is their travel schedule? How much do they have to travel? you might want to ask questions about. What is the culture of the company that they work in? And that might depend how far you are along in the process. If you're just looking generally, maybe getting into specifics of any company, it's not as important. But if you're at the point where you're considering a company, that can be very helpful. I would also ask what are their. Recommendations about making the transition any tips or, potential things that they should consider doing. And then you always want to offer. Is there anything I can do for you? Right? Because this person has given. Their time and you may feel like I have nothing to offer this person that's given me their time, but you never know. So you can thank them. And then you can say, if I can ever do anything for you, please reach out. I'm happy to help in any way so that it at least feels like you're not just asking that person to give, give, give.

Chelsea: 23:50

Yeah. I love that. And I think like when we break it down like that, it's like the whole concept of networking, it doesn't seem as scary. We just didn't have to do that really to get into med school. And so that's not part of our wheelhouse and it's not like a normal thing we think about, but when we break it down as like you're sending people messages, you're connecting on phone calls or zoom calls, like it actually doesn't have to be that scary of a process.

Nerissa: 24:13

Exactly. It's just like sitting and talking with someone that you've just met at a cocktail party. I mean, honestly, that's how you should think of it.

Chelsea: 24:21

But it is funny how like the concept of networking, cause I even, I've been doing more networking calls on LinkedIn, just with like other people kind of in adjacent industries are like in different roles. And I always find myself way more nervous before a networking call than before a sales call, because it's just like, What you know versus what you don't know. And so I'm just like saying that to normalize for people. If they're having fear around networking, that's okay. It doesn't mean to not do it. It's just like unknown and it's new.

Nerissa: 24:48

Totally agree. And, you know, I think it's again, getting back to the mindset piece. It's reminding yourself of all the very, very difficult things that you've done and continue to do as a physician and just saying like, okay, well, I mean, come on, if I can do all of these hard things, I can get over this hurdle of thinking that networking is hard and I can do that too.

Chelsea: 25:11

Yeah, that was like my mantra when I was starting my business. I just made the mantra, I figured out med school, I can figure out online business. And I just kept saying that over and over again. And I was like, there's no excuse. Like if I could figure something like that out, I can absolutely figure this next thing out. we talked a lot about like how to get into a role and like some best tips and practices for that, which has been so helpful. But what about like once you're in it, like what are some things you wish you had known before going in to pharma?

Nerissa: 25:40

It's understanding that. Not everyone comes to the table with all the team's best interest. I think from a place of fear, people can sometimes behave in a slightly negative way. And so just knowing that you. Need to have your radar up.

Chelsea: 26:01

Having somebody who maybe has a different agenda, how does that sort of impact you in your role?

Nerissa: 26:07

It can impact people in thinking that you have support for something that you're proposing. I'll use a clinical trial protocol as an example. It's If you're proposing a certain primary efficacy end point, and you're thinking that the whole team is backing you up on that. And then. In the presentation, all of a sudden, someone that you think is in agreement is starting to question it. That might be a situation where perhaps I should have done more homework to really sit with individual people and sort of vet an idea. It's, you know, called Pre agreement, right? That the agreements aren't actually made at the table in the presentation or the boardroom. Agreements are made prior to the actual meeting. So that would be a situation where it could come back to haunt you if you haven't done that, extra work.

Chelsea: 27:01

Does that feel frustrating? Because I know like one thing within clinical medicine, something that can be frustrating people is Oh, we have to call insurance and get prior auths. And we have to do it. It's like, why can't we just do what's right. And like, do what the best thing is. Does it sort of feel like that?

Nerissa: 27:14

That is a very fair analogy. Let's keep with the efficacy endpoint. You know, maybe it's the perfect efficacy endpoint, but it takes 2 years to show a difference, right? It's something that doesn't change quickly. And someone saying to you, we don't have the money to run that trial for 2 years. Or we don't have that much time, right? We need a readout more quickly. We need something within six to 12 months. And so even though it's the right end point, it doesn't fit perhaps the business needs. And so you have to be creative and open to. It's great that that might be the best primary efficacy endpoint, but if the trial that you've designed can't actually be executed because the money's going to run out or the support, then, it's not the best efficacy endpoint because it's not ultimately bringing a drug to the patients.

Chelsea: 28:10

yeah, that makes sense. So it's less feeling like you're friction and like rubbing up against some, force that's like, doesn't have the best interest at heart, but it's more like you have to just be creative and flexible and adapt and adjust to like, what's actually going to make the most sense for the thing you're trying to do is as opposed to just being in your science tower. It's like, we're actually in the realm of like practical application. And so it's just sort of. Maybe the growing pains of like coming back to that.

Nerissa: 28:34

That's exactly right. And I think a word that kind of comes to mind that, you do have to be flexible and the learning there, I think, for physicians is understanding all the needs. That are at the table, the business needs, maybe there's like a timeline. Maybe there's a competitor that they're developing a similar drug for a similar disease. And if your protocol is putting a readout two years behind their readout, Well, that's not good ultimately for the drug you're trying to develop. So it really is not just about the science and you have to take away some of the rigidity around that and say, okay, what are all the factors I'm trying to develop this protocol around?

Chelsea: 29:20

Is there anything else that you like wish you would have known before going into it? Anything you wish you could like go back and tell your younger self?

Nerissa: 29:27

everything that comes to mind is just about taking the opportunities. And, that's part of the success of my career is I've raised my hand for things that may be, I had no idea how to do it. But as you said, like, we can figure out hard things. And not being afraid to fail and taking those opportunities, raising your hand, even for things like I've, Been willing to travel internationally. and things like that, they differentiate you because now I have global experience. Whereas if I was oh, I'm just going to stay in my U. S. role, I would have lost that opportunity to explore other regions. So it's really about just taking the opportunity and being open to it.

Chelsea: 30:14

Was there a time that you feel like you did fail, like you like took an opportunity it didn't turn out the way you wanted and you had to kind of like work through that? The idea of failure can be so scary especially us as perfectionists. So it's really helpful to hear like, Hey, this is a failure. People can fail and they actually can be okay.

Nerissa: 30:32

Yes. I mean, how much time do we have? A failure I made was a choice about moving companies. I had been in the smaller startup space, sort of mid career and knew that I enjoyed it, but I decided I would take a role at a bigger company. And there were some great opportunities that it offered pretty quickly. I realized that I liked being in small companies. And so again, not really a failure, a learning opportunity, but it's a lot to change jobs. Right. And so I look back on that and say, well, there were probably some warning signs. I should have paid more attention to. And again, going back to listening to our intuition, I probably didn't do that as well as I should have with that job.

Chelsea: 31:19

yeah, you can make the quote unquote wrong move. You can change to a different company and then, you know, And then you realize, wasn't, that wasn't the move. I shouldn't have done that, but then you can learn from it and it, none of it has to be permanent or the end all be all. And like you said, it just comes back to this, taking the opportunities, not being afraid to fail because if you take each failure as a learning opportunity, you're going to be ahead of people who are just too afraid to do anything well, Nerissa, thank you so much for coming on. And just kind of like demystifying the whole process of pharma. There is just a lot of misinformation around that. So thanks for just being the expert and sharing all of your knowledge and expertise on that.

Nerissa: 31:55

Ah, well, thank you for having me on and you do for physicians as well.

31:59

So who is pharma? Right? For, for people who like being part of a team environment, especially interdisciplinary teams. People who have this joy and love of learning for learning sake. People who are flexible, who aren't bothered by things moving at a slower pace, or by lots of time spent in meetings or office politics. These are all parts of the day-to-day reality of working in a career in pharma and so if you decide that this is right for you, what I want you to take away from this episode is. The one thing you need to focus on to get a foot in the door is networking. And I want to repeat what Nerissa said during the podcast. The more live people. You can get your resume in the hands of the much better chances you have of getting in. And live people. It doesn't mean just sending it off to people. On the internet and hoping that they read it and see it it's being in front of someone face-to-face maybe through a zoom screen, but maybe in real life and having real live conversations with human beings. And when we think of networking, yes, it can be scary. Cause that's not something that we're used to, but really networking. It's connecting. And when we can reframe it in that way, it's just having conversations with people that you're interested in. Being like I like to think of it as like I get a girl crush on someone and I want to learn everything about them. And I'm so fascinated by them and I admire them and look up to them and there's so much fun energy involved. And if that energy is not involved in your networking process, Then maybe you're not going into something that is right for you, right. If you cannot tap into this sense of like, oh my gosh, they're so cool. I would love to do this. I want to be like them. If you can't tap into that through your networking process and yours might look different because mine, mine becomes a fan girl. Uh, situation. If you can't tap into that though. Then that could be a red flag for you that maybe you're just going through the motions and trying to get this job because of sheds, because you think it's what you should do, because it seems like the right next step. And so I want you to be really aware and pay attention throughout your networking process. Does it feel fun? Does it feel like you get to nerd out and just, oh my gosh, I get to talk to these people who are doing these things that excite me. Does it feel like that because it gets to feel like that. And if it's not feeling like that you might be pursuing the wrong path. Because if you really want to make a difference, make a living and have the freedom to enjoy your life. That starts by pursuing your own authentic path. To success and fulfillment. And the best way to pursue your authentic path is letting your joy and excitement be your guide. It's like Jimminy cricket, but not a conscience. We're going to always let joy and excitement. Be your guide. All right. With that we will leave it for today. Thank you so much for listening. I appreciate you all and I'll see you next time.