Special Guest: Jon

Our guest today has taken a wondering path to recovery that has included may twists and turns. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_03: 0:00

It's time again for Doc Shock, your addiction lifeguard podcast. I am Dr. Jacques DeBrucker, a psychologist, licensed professional counselor, and addiction specialist. If you are suffering from addiction, misery, trauma, whatever it is, I'm here to help. If you're in search of help to try to get your life back together, join me here at Doc Shock, your addiction lifeguard, the addiction recovery podcast. to be real clear about what this podcast podcast it's for entertainment and information only so let's keep it in that light all right have a good time learn something and then get the real help that you need from a professional all right so i've got a special guest in the studio today john john is a man who has gone through some stuff and recovery.

SPEAKER_00: 1:39

I've had to have the life preserver thrown to me a couple times. You did, yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 1:44

By the lifeguard. Yeah. So... I think it might be important for people to hear a little bit about your background so that they understand who you are and how you got to where you are today. So they understand what we're talking about today, if we get to that point. But for them to understand who you are. Sure.

SPEAKER_00: 2:10

So who are you? Well, I think like anyone else, an ambitious young man at one point. You know, kind of like everything, every opportunity opened to me. And I was a big swimmer as a kid. And once that was taken away, it was kind of like a downfall into the addiction. And I mean, there's a lot of other components that play into that.

SPEAKER_03: 2:40

Well, there always is, right?

SPEAKER_00: 2:42

Yeah. Yeah. So there was... You know, just family issues and, you know, I was run up by peers quite a bit, which I think probably a lot of addicts can relate to. Yeah,

SPEAKER_03: 2:59

the peer pressure thing just kicks in and those that you're around. Yeah. Kind of influencing you.

SPEAKER_00: 3:06

A little bit differently and, like... I kind of started out as more of the like, you know, why would anybody do this? Because I came from the athletics background. And then, you know, curiosity killed the cat. I got interested in like, you know, just hearing them talk about it over and over at the lunch table and then pulling someone aside and being like, don't tell anyone. But, you know, could I get a joint and see what this is about?

SPEAKER_03: 3:31

Yeah. Well, you know what? That's a story that for a lot of people. Irrespective of the drug of choice. It could have been alcohol. It could be pot. Today, it's probably more pot than alcohol for that experience, perhaps. Yeah. Yeah, so you're like the typical American kid.

SPEAKER_00: 3:47

Yeah, pretty much.

SPEAKER_03: 3:48

Yeah. Okay. And then, so you moved on from pot to...

SPEAKER_00: 3:53

Yeah, that escalated. You know, I kind of think of it like the first time I smoked pot, I was like, everything they told me about weed was not... what I experienced. And I kind of was like, well, this has all been a lie, so why not try other things?

SPEAKER_03: 4:11

Okay, hold on. I've got to ask a question. So what did you hear versus what you experienced? What did you hear? It was like, cool, it'll mellow you out, and you got anxious?

SPEAKER_00: 4:20

No, no. It was more people... I was born in 92, so there was still that drug war... idea of everything like very extreme you know like how bad drugs are for you and then like the first time I like smoked weed I'm like I feel great

SPEAKER_03: 4:42

oh okay yeah gotcha so you moved you moved from pot to what what was the next thing that you used

SPEAKER_00: 4:50

um I think ecstasy was the second thing I ever took

SPEAKER_03: 4:55

okay

SPEAKER_00: 4:56

um then there was mushrooms um Then alcohol was probably hand-in-hand with pot. Once I tried pot, pot, cigarettes, and alcohol came together. But my first time really with trying something that was, in my eyes at that time, was hardcore drugs, was ecstasy. I remember that first time taking ecstasy and being like, should I puke this up? Maybe this wasn't a good idea. And then not puking it up and having a great time on that. So then that...

SPEAKER_03: 5:30

And then that led to...

SPEAKER_00: 5:32

Yeah, that kept escalating. So then it was like pretty much anything I could get my hands on. I probably did like Coke like a couple times. I didn't do any like opioids or try to turn crack or turn Coke into anything else than what it was. But the weed and... the drinking and trying other things led to rehab, which ultimately led to me learning about other things. So pretty quickly I learned about needle use, heroin and how to make crack. And I mean, if there was any class I was ever interested in, um, high school was chemistry

SPEAKER_03: 6:23

oh no

SPEAKER_00: 6:23

yeah so before before drugs there was like you know going on the anarchist cookbook and going and finding all the like right different things i could make and um now i'm like well i can take this substance turn it into a free base version of that substance and smoke it and so there was a lot of a ritual to it that was kind of like enticing to me and So, yeah, it pretty quickly, like, from... I think it was, like, the summer of 16 years old, I, like, escalated to, like, the most extreme state of it. Like, I never smoked heroin. I never snorted heroin. I went right to needle use. And then that's when everything just started snowballing. In the beginning, there wasn't, like, much access to it. But as that access increased, then, like... from like 17 to 19 was like going through it. Yeah. Okay.

SPEAKER_03: 7:26

So, um, in terms of usage for a while there, you would be what we would consider a poly addict, just whatever you could get your hands on. But then you kind of refined that down to a couple of drugs that were your preference.

SPEAKER_00: 7:40

Yeah. So I, I mean, I liked uppers a lot more. So, um, and like I said I like that process of like making cracks so like I did that quite a bit and then that's actually more like heroin almost came in as a treatment for not having to deal with like the birds chirping in the morning like just still being awake and that just like shitty feeling so then there's just like this kind of like take that edge off where you're just like crawling in your skin and then I don't even think I knew really about withdraws until I had them myself. It wasn't like I was in rehab and people talked about that, but I didn't really associate it right. I don't know. I don't think you think very clearly when you're in rehab.

SPEAKER_03: 8:36

No, you don't. That's why you're there. Yeah. So that brings me to the question that I had for you today, which is, you know, we were talking before we started this today about you just trying to do it on your own.

SPEAKER_02: 8:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 8:52

So your attempt at recovery was something that you started because you just all of a sudden woke up one day and said, oh, I'm going to try to get into recovery? Or was there something that had happened that pushed you to the point where you're like, I can't do this anymore? Yeah, so... Um, you don't have to go into a lot of detail about that situation. I'm just trying to figure out. Yeah. It was a point that you,

SPEAKER_00: 9:17

it was pretty quick. The thing that led me to my last rehab and was like the beginning, um, I was, you know, like forced into that rehab, but ultimately like a year later after like, they're actually being like consequences, like boundary set that were upheld with me. Right.

UNKNOWN: 9:36

Um,

SPEAKER_00: 9:37

I had just an awakening. I always try to tell the story where there's six hours before this moment, I had no power to get over this. And then six hours later, it was like, I'm never doing this again. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 9:54

And so at that point, you're not using anymore and that's the end?

SPEAKER_00: 9:59

Yeah. you know that was to me at that time it was like hard drugs like I'm never gonna do crack I'm never gonna do coke this is what you're saying to yourself heroin yeah like I'm just done anything yeah like weed's fine alcohol is fine but those like everything else is like you gotta stay away from is

SPEAKER_03: 10:16

that because those are so destructive compared to weed or pot that's what you're thinking at the time

SPEAKER_00: 10:20

like yeah like I mean um I've never had to like well not no I have but like and compare like at this time like you know, like being up for three days and like being in psychosis from smoking like crack. and getting dope sick was way more serious than... I don't think I really even noticed at that time. Weed does have its own withdrawal that I think is not talked about very much. Because once I got off those and quit weed, it's like, yeah, you don't sleep, you sweat a lot. But yeah, so based on that, those feel like they're doing damage to me. Weed is like, oh, that's the best friend.

SPEAKER_03: 11:02

Yeah, okay. So... The destructive part, you'd had enough. Okay. But then you start struggling trying to get off of weed and alcohol.

SPEAKER_00: 11:17

Yeah. Because it was... Like, with the weed, I mean, I was... Especially because, like, it's been pretty normalized. Like, at that point, like, parents accept it. You know, like, you're 20 years old. My parents... Didn't make a big deal out of it. Other people like I felt like, you know, like just publicly I could talk about smoking weed and there's like, oh, yeah, you smoke weed. Oh, you drink beer, too. Like, you know, there wasn't

SPEAKER_03: 11:45

not a big deal.

SPEAKER_00: 11:46

Yeah. So. So then, yeah, I just kept smoking.

SPEAKER_03: 11:50

Trying to get to the point where you're actually. So now at this point, I guess then you're defining being clean as I'm not doing the felonies. Yeah, exactly. Okay. And at that point, weed was not legal because that wasn't until January 1st of this year. So it's like I'm not doing the felonies anymore. I'll stick with the misdemeanors.

SPEAKER_00: 12:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 12:15

Not realizing that those also can kill you.

SPEAKER_00: 12:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 12:19

Right. And then at some point you had that awakening of like, hold on. I'm dealing with addiction. I'm not dealing with a drug.

SPEAKER_00: 12:29

Yeah. That's a really good way to put it. Because, and how I'll explain it now is, and I mean, I hear this story over and over, even from people who like, aren't like the level of addict I was at is it's like, oh, you know, it's like that beer at the end of work. It's like, oh, you know, it takes the edge off. Oh, it helps me like, like people can be around me better and I can be around myself. It's like at that time it was like, yeah, like I'll say, I'd say something like that. That's fine. Yeah. That's totally normal. Which, which in a... It is messed up because that has been pretty normalized. You still hear people who are going about their lives, have kids, seem relatively normal saying that script.

SPEAKER_03: 13:14

Yeah. Except if you have an addict brain, in which case those will overtake you as well. Because that beer after work becomes two and then becomes five, then becomes six. And then you're getting up in the morning and you're feeling kind of shaky. And so you drink one in the morning and then it's like, why am I drinking beer? I could drink vodka.

SPEAKER_00: 13:33

Yeah, well, mine always stayed to weed. I would just like, I mean, to give you the escalation is it's like going from... just smoking weed to now like growing weed to growing more weed. So you always got to go

SPEAKER_03: 13:53

to extremes,

SPEAKER_00: 13:54

right?

UNKNOWN: 13:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 13:57

Always got to go to the extremes.

SPEAKER_03: 13:59

And so that guy.

SPEAKER_00: 14:00

Yeah. So, I mean, it's, it's like the same progression just like with something else. It's like, I, I always got in like, I mean like, yeah, I like the substances cause the substances make it so I don't have to deal with the like emotion. And yeah, Then I could feel productive because... So you think. Yeah, because I'm... That's what you're

SPEAKER_03: 14:23

telling

SPEAKER_00: 14:23

yourself. I've got a whole operation that I'm running. Right. And then I can tell people that and they'll think that I'm productive too, even though I really just like pour water and... some buckets and smoke weed all day this you've turned into

SPEAKER_03: 14:37

breaking bad yeah

SPEAKER_02: 14:39

that's that story i guess yeah

SPEAKER_03: 14:42

so when um okay so the top the the question i asked initially was about you deciding that you could do this yourself versus you needed help and it sounds like you're a person who very much is like no i've got the power the strength to make things happen and i can figure this out

SPEAKER_02: 15:00

Yeah. That's

SPEAKER_03: 15:01

what you're saying. And that's how you were using too, the same way. Like, no, I'm not just smoking it. I'm growing it. I'm not just growing it. I'm cultivating it. And I'm not just cultivating it. I'm refining the cultivation to get the right. So your recovery, I'm assuming you probably would use the same approach because, hey, I'm a smart guy. I can figure it out. I don't need help.

SPEAKER_00: 15:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 15:21

How'd that work out?

SPEAKER_00: 15:22

Well, it didn't. So, I mean, along the way, I'm still like... I've gone to therapy since 15. I was a tool gatherer, but I never used any of those tools. I'd go get into crisis. Without even using those tools, I'd be like, go throw a fit about how none of those tools work.

SPEAKER_03: 15:51

Without any idea how to use them.

SPEAKER_00: 15:53

Yeah, and it's like I knew how to use them, but I refused to use them because I had a tool that I was using, and it was the wrong

SPEAKER_03: 15:59

tool. All right, but we're using analogies here or metaphors. Just because you have a tool doesn't mean you know how to use it. Sure. Something simple like a hammer. If you're a framer for a profession and you're building house frames with 2x4s and use a hammer, you have a very special hammer, and you know how to use it in a lot of different ways that– just Joe homeowner doesn't know. So you're like Harry homeowner who has a, a hammer and he understands if he swings his arm, it pounds a nail in, but that's about it. Yeah. So that's really not knowing how to use the tool the right way. Sure.

SPEAKER_00: 16:37

I, yeah. And, and I did that for like a long time. Like, you know, I got, what I thought was sober at 20 and then it wasn't until like 27 that it just like hit me and it was like it was during a phone call I was going through a breakup at the time and I got I was talking one of our one of our me and my ex's like mutual friends and I'm like she's like yeah you know I'm in a fight with my boyfriend you know maybe I'm overthinking it I did smoke this morning and I just went oh That's what this is doing. And it's like the insidious nature of like addiction. And I always like to like attribute like a spirit to different substances. And weed's a trickster. Weed like sits there and it's kind of like... it takes you a step away from the problem. So you feel like it's doing you a service, but it's also making you just like, and I don't know if this is for everyone, but for me, like I'm already someone who's going to go like dive into things. I'm an overthinker and weed is just going to amplify that. And I'm in a point in my life, like going through this breakup, I think I was still in like, we did like this like 30 day separation. So like my mind is just like, we're not even talking for 30 days. What's going to happen at day 30. My mind's running crazy. And I'm like, And then I'm smoking weed and I can't get myself to do anything. You're

SPEAKER_03: 18:06

talking about during that 30 days you're smoking weed.

SPEAKER_00: 18:08

Yeah. I mean, like I smoked weed all up until this point, until this like phone call.

SPEAKER_03: 18:12

Oh, okay. So you just checked out.

SPEAKER_00: 18:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 18:15

Right. That's the step away from the problem.

SPEAKER_00: 18:17

Yeah. But I'm also, but like, it's like you're a step away from the problem, but I'm also like... You're a step away emotionally, but I'm still grinding my gears in my mind about what's going on, and I'm amplifying that by smoking. Well,

SPEAKER_03: 18:31

see, but that's part of the effect of marijuana is it causes anxiety.

SPEAKER_00: 18:35

People

SPEAKER_03: 18:36

smoke it because they think they're getting rid of anxiety, which initially you are, but then what it does is it then starts to cause anxiety to the point of psychosis.

SPEAKER_00: 18:46

Yeah, the thing I want to make clear, though, is for somebody who's making an excuse for it is that... you might not even know, like you hear the stories of your friends like, oh yeah, I turned 30 and like now weed makes me anxious. It's like, it wasn't as like, I wasn't having a panic attack or I wasn't aware I'm having a panic attack. I still feel very relaxed by what weed's doing. I'm just now realizing that like it got normalized. Like you, you normalize this like kind of psychotic behavior in your mind where it's like, you're not aware you're overanalyzing and panicking and ruminating.

SPEAKER_03: 19:29

That's why it's the trickster.

SPEAKER_00: 19:31

Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_03: 19:32

Which is an interesting effect of that drug, THC, the effect of it on you, as opposed to methamphetamine or cocaine or opiate drugs, which have a different effect, and they blunt you in a different way. But it's the mystique around marijuana. and uh so it does trick you and lull you into this apathetic state yeah while increasing anxiety at the same time so it it becomes very difficult to manage

SPEAKER_00: 20:04

yeah so it's it's like insidious like like in comparison to like heroin where it's like it's like this abusive mother who like has like attachment issues and you know she loves you and she takes care of you and she feeds you and you're like hey like i'm gonna go off to college and she's like you're not gonna make it without me see how well you do and she she's giving you no preparation for life and you go out and you just get beaten by life but while you're in that coddled womb of mom there everything feels great but once she's not there. Then you start every, all the, like the, um, the veil rips off and reality just comes rushing in and physically and mentally. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 20:56

So when you, um, are thinking about recovery, what you're saying is it was a, it was a progression of, of an understanding of what recovery really is. So like the old story about people go to AA or they'll go to AA and it's like, yeah, I'm in recovery. Okay. And then they mentioned, yeah, but I smoke pot. And everybody in the room is like, oh no, no, no, no, no. You're not in recovery because you just, you just switched from one for the other. And it's like, no, no, but it's, it's fine. You know, I can still function with alcohol. I can't function. Yeah. Because you smell like alcohol and everybody knows that you're drunk and you've lost psycho motor control. That is a different neural receptor in your brain that it's hitting as opposed to THC or opiate drugs or crystal meth. I mean, they're hitting different receptors. So some drugs you can function seemingly. Okay. Um, outwardly you could appear to be functioning okay alcohol no if you're if you're drunk you your psychomotor control is gone that's very obvious thc now it's doing something else to you

SPEAKER_00: 22:06

yeah or i mean or heroin where you're sitting there nodding off and

SPEAKER_03: 22:10

that's not

SPEAKER_00: 22:11

normal you're not even aware of it like that one yeah but

SPEAKER_03: 22:13

everybody else is yeah right so

SPEAKER_00: 22:15

you're just and they point it out and you're like what everything

SPEAKER_03: 22:17

no no man just leave me alone i'm fine yeah you know yeah So you are progressively going through a variety of different drugs in your drug history, usage history. And you're eliminating this and eliminating that because you have standards. And so your standards are like, oh, I can't use this. That would be bad. That's wrong. So then I'm switching to something else and something else. So now you're down to, like I said, you're down to marijuana and alcohol, and you're seeing those now as a problem at some point, right? And you realize this, no, this is addiction I'm dealing with. It's not a drug. Yeah. Like understanding you have an addictive

SPEAKER_00: 23:02

brain. Yeah, yeah. Like you have an addict brain. I don't think even at that point I fully realized that yet, but I was like on the like, I'm at the door. It hasn't opened up yet. There's a little bit of an awareness peeking in. Yeah. Yeah. And I think I've been lying to myself.

SPEAKER_03: 23:18

Yeah. So I think of this stages of recovery, like we have like the recovery, you know, the AA steps, you know, I think we have stages of recovery too. And you have that early stage where you just chaos. And then the middle stages where you're kind of accepting and you're surrendering to recovery, but you're negotiating what you're going to keep and what you're going to give away. And then in later stages, when you really fully understand that this is not about um a drug of choice it's about your who you are and your brain and that's why we talk about recovery in terms of being like a spiritual change it is is something like my model is i'm going to point you guys can't see it on the podcast but um abstaining from a drug which is what you were doing with the the other the other drugs that you'd stop. Abstaining from drugs, that's up in your head. So I'm pointing to my skull. Sobriety, clean and sober, that's coming from your heart. That's inside. That's a character change. That is a core fundamental realization that I have an addict brain and my brain betrays me. It's not the drug of choice because I can switch from alcohol to pot, pot to gambling, gambling to shopping, shopping to sex, sex to porn, porn to... you know, marijuana, marijuana, then, you know, Librium. And cause I'm, I'm always anxious. You know, you could just, you literally can just hopscotch all around the place, but cause you're not really treating the actual problem. Right. And the problem is your brain and how it's filtering information and why it's filtering it that way. So you got to work on the trauma. Yeah. Really? I mean, that's my approach.

SPEAKER_00: 24:58

Yeah. I mean that, that was everything like in, and in that time, like when I quit the weed, like now it's like, that was probably the only time I'd been without weed trying to quit weed when I'm not on something else. So now I'm like,

SPEAKER_03: 25:17

that was it. Yeah. Just weed.

SPEAKER_00: 25:19

Yeah. And I've, and I've heard of like, like my friends and stuff and they, you know, they'll say like, you know, quit weed for a job and they don't get this. But for me, I mean like, like, Someone dumped a bucket of water in me in my sleep, sweating. And I used CBD to sleep for the first week. And then that ran out. I was able to sleep from then because usually I can't sleep without it. And so once I was off, then I started like... I mean, I'm still dealing with this breakup. The breakup is now like... I don't have the exact days, but the breakup's either official or I've realized that this isn't going on. I've made the choice myself. And I'm dusting off that toolbox and just utilizing everything that's been taught to me. And I guess what you said is like, yeah, like, You can use this hammer for like all these different things. You're like a craftsman. You know what you're doing. Yeah. In the beginning, I'm probably beating myself on the head with it. And then that slowly like, you know, I'm like learning through a progression of like journaling and kind of creating my own thing. therapy for myself right in this process

SPEAKER_03: 26:53

so all right we're going to play lightning round okay all right you're going to answer quickly to these questions all right brief answers and there are no wrong answers they're just answers okay marijuana addictive

SPEAKER_00: 27:08

addictive yes

SPEAKER_03: 27:09

okay it is marijuana has no effect on you when you're not using it you know you use it all the time but when you're not using it marijuana has there's no effect

SPEAKER_00: 27:18

Reframe that question. It doesn't affect you. It doesn't affect

SPEAKER_03: 27:20

you when you're not using. Let's say Monday through Friday you smoke four days and three days you don't. Marijuana is not affecting you on the days that you're not smoking. Oh, yeah, it's affecting me. It's affecting you. Okay. There are no withdrawal symptoms from marijuana.

SPEAKER_00: 27:34

Yeah, no, there's withdrawal symptoms. There's withdrawal symptoms. They're not as bad, but they're withdrawal symptoms. Okay.

SPEAKER_03: 27:39

Marijuana causes you to be anxious? Yes. Yes, it does. Yeah. Okay. So it is addictive? Yeah. All right. Okay. Is it easy to get off of?

SPEAKER_00: 27:47

When you're ready.

SPEAKER_03: 27:48

But otherwise, no?

SPEAKER_00: 27:51

Yeah. Otherwise, you're just internalizing an addiction and it's going to be white knuckling it.

SPEAKER_03: 27:56

Okay. So pretty much all the myths that are out there are just that.

SPEAKER_00: 28:02

Yeah, and I would even say when I was still smoking weed, I never would buy into the idea that like, oh, weed's really good for you. It helps you deal with your emotions and blah, blah, blah. Because I think I had enough of like, you know, I'm still in therapy through all this. So like, I have kind of like a reality check once a week. And there's kind of like, all right, like, I mean, weed at this time is like, weed's not that bad. But weed's not that bad, but people are making it. into this like miracle. More than it is. Yeah, they're making it a miracle cure. And it's like, no, like, man.

SPEAKER_03: 28:37

So it's a... Okay, so it is a problem. And I feel like I'm just literally just... I'm spinning in the wind. It's just... It's like I'm wasting my breath. Because like you said, parents... The parents, your parents, or you see parents that just kind of like, it's okay, it's not that bad, because they don't know. Because the parents who have kids who are in their teenage years or 20s or sometimes 30s, these are parents who grew up with the illegal marijuana that they were buying a joint at a time. and you smoke a joint, you just got high. It's not a big deal. They don't understand what they're up against. They don't understand how fast the body metabolizes an edible. They don't know that the edible has an undetermined amount of content of THC in it. They don't understand how vapes work or what that is, a dab pen, a wax. They don't know what those things are. They're still thinking, oh, it's a joint. Or if you're extra special, you got a bong. That's world so i don't know that it's necessarily they've just kind of uh saying it's okay other more like they just gave up

SPEAKER_00: 29:50

yeah i i also think it's just such an addiction culture like even like people you wouldn't like as an addict consider an addict i mean i consider them an addict i mean Like my dad, he doesn't show any of those tendencies, but man, my mom goes away and the macaroni and the five gallons of ice cream and the start coming out. He's pizza. It's like, I'm like, This is not that much different than the little episodes I would get into. Yeah, it's the reward

SPEAKER_03: 30:22

center in the brain that starts firing off. And then

SPEAKER_00: 30:25

you watch the justifications.

SPEAKER_03: 30:27

Yeah. It's not at the elephant, and it's not a big deal.

SPEAKER_00: 30:30

I'm going on a diet in a week.

SPEAKER_03: 30:32

Yeah, but you hear the parallel there. You're seeing the parallel there with the attic brain. Yeah. is it possible? So we went through the lightning round cause I didn't want to derail this into a pot discussion, but, um, things that we think are okay or not. And it really, a lot of it depends on just like with alcohol or anything else. If you have an addict brain, your reward center and your brain fires off, it's a problem. We call recovered heroin addicts. We call them alcoholics because it hits a similar receptor in the brain and it gives you a similar feeling that loopy disconnected thing. Um, THC is the great crutch. Like I go from whatever drug I use to pot because that's not a big deal. We hear that in the rooms all the time. It is a problem. So really in treatment of addiction, the focus needs to be on the reason that you're smoking or using or shooting or snorting or whatever, eating, gambling, shopping, porn, the reason you're doing it. And when people come in to see me as a clinician, that's the first thing I tell them. You're using your drug of choice. That's fine. I don't care because you need it. That's your coping mechanism. What we're going to talk about is why you're using, not when, what, and how, because I don't care about that because I can't control that. This is a private office here. You're coming in for an hour or two a week, maybe three at the most. 168 hours in a week. If you're here for one hour, that's 167 hours. You have access to everything. So I don't focus on what you're doing or how much you're doing. I'll note it, but that's it. I'm not going to tell you to stop. you're going to stop on your own because we're going to treat the reason that you're using. And that's what you're describing through your life. You went through an escalation of drug usage, but you also tied it to every one of your changes or using stories was always tied to some traumatic event, a breakup, a loss of this, loss of that. And that's what people don't get a lot is they don't connect that they're coping with something and what it is they're coping with.

SPEAKER_00: 32:46

Yeah, and then you hear the stories of like, you know, cause you'll go into a rehab and I mean, you'll hear some like horrific stories and you know, this is definitely like an addict minds way of playing. Oh, mine's like not that bad, but like in a weaponized way, like, like you're not doing it to, you are doing it to justify, but like, I don't think super like consciously and, and like that, that can be really dangerous because you, you, you rob yourself of like like for me like the biggest thing was like like losing myself through the whole process now there was things that led up to that you know rejections that led up to that but like returning to an authentic self that i was before all of that is what's granted me like it's like you know you never like say that you're never gonna do it again Because, you know, like, you do that, the shadow kind of grows in the dark and can come and get you. Well, that's the arrogance. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 33:50

You're saying that from a position of arrogance.

SPEAKER_00: 33:53

What?

SPEAKER_03: 33:54

Oh, I'm not going

SPEAKER_00: 33:55

to do this ever again. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, and then

SPEAKER_03: 33:57

your guard is down. I got this. No, you don't. Yeah. Then it sneaks up on you.

SPEAKER_00: 34:01

Yeah, because, I mean, like, I can see it come out in things, like... gosh if i really want that like sandwich and it got thrown away like i'm probably gonna dig in that garbage to get that sandwich and it's like oh like there's still that like that mentality of just going to any extent i

SPEAKER_03: 34:23

gotta

SPEAKER_00: 34:23

use like what this is

SPEAKER_03: 34:24

yeah just at the back see that's what that's the attic brain

SPEAKER_00: 34:27

yeah yeah and so i'm reminded of it ruminating on things without like the destructive substances anymore. And, you know, when it's something like that, you know, you can like laugh it off, but like, like with a friend or something, but like in your mind, you're like, don't forget.

SPEAKER_03: 34:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 34:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 34:44

And that's why it's important to always remember. You have an addict brain. Some people, they need a reminder. So they'll go to a meeting. They're 20 years clean and sober. They'll go to a meeting. Why? Because they, they want that reminder to, that they're an addict. They don't want to lose sight of that. They're not using, they're not at risk of using, but they just like, Hey, you know, it's been a year since I've been to a meeting. I'll go to a meeting. And I asked them, why'd you go? I just, you know what? It's, I just need to be reminded. Good.

SPEAKER_00: 35:16

That's good. It's kind of like, um, if you do yoga, you go back to the beginner's class to get something that you missed when you first started. Right. And, and, You know, surprisingly, I haven't had this so much in my life because at 20, you know, I wasn't around. Like, you know, I wasn't in rehab anymore and I didn't do it through the rooms. So I wasn't around a lot of addicts anymore. So, like, I mean, I saw a lot of people, like, go out and, like, OD, like, after rehab. That tends to happen because of the tolerance issue. But, I mean, just in the past month, my girlfriend has, like, lost– two friends that she knew from like elementary school who were like sober one for six years one for 10 years and one of them who was like at peace like working like some pretty awesome job like painting you know had all these outlets like sounds like exactly where you want to be right and And it was his birthday. Like, we know it was around his birthday. And, you know, when I heard it, I was like, oh, it's probably an OD. And sure enough, like, two weeks later when, like, you know, the obituary is like unfortunate causes or, you know, whatever. And then it comes out that, you know, the friends start talking. You find out.

SPEAKER_03: 36:34

Yeah, it was at the birthday. And he thought, oh, I'm good. I'm safe. Yeah. Or this moment where it's like, hmm.

SPEAKER_00: 36:42

I could handle it now. Hmm. I'm at peace. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 36:46

Hmm.

SPEAKER_00: 36:46

But that's like, that's what, that's the internalized addiction to me.

SPEAKER_03: 36:50

So the, the, uh, the saying once an addict, always an addict. I changed that to once an addict, always an addict brain. Yeah. Cause it could, you could turn it into, you know, collecting movie posters and then suddenly you got like 3000 of them. So it's just being aware that you have an addict brain and that's something that as somebody in recovery, you have to keep, vigilant awareness of. I mean, I do. I know. I know when I'm doing something, it's because I'm an addict. I can feel it. I don't want to admit it necessarily, but it's like, you know, I see one of those and then I want two more and then I want five more. And it's like, yeah, but you already have two of those books. Why do you need five more of a book that's very similar to that? Because

SPEAKER_00: 37:32

I'm an addict. And you feel that, like, my big trigger is that, like, that empty feeling.

SPEAKER_03: 37:38

Oh, it's filling that, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 37:40

Yeah, like if I'm, you know, if I'm like, like you were saying with the books, you're getting more and more books, and then you're like, it's the realization that I'm trying to fill something.

SPEAKER_03: 37:49

And now you have to then look at what's causing you to feel empty. Yeah. Forget about your trying to fill it. what, why are you trying to fill it? Like what's going on? Right. And then you got to go back to your basics, go back to your meeting, pick up, you know, call, call a former sponsor, call a friend who's in recovery, go see a therapist, do something to work on that thing. Cause that's your addict brain kicking in. Yeah. So, all right. So to cover what we have talked about today really quickly, um, addiction is something that I think more and more what I see as a clinician is a story that you gave, which is this, led to this, led to this, and there's a constant escalation. That's what I'm seeing in today's 15 to 25-year-olds. More of that. There's more usage, broader usage that gets engaged in. And then it gets narrowed down to one or two that their preferences are. So the idea of a polyaddict, of where you'll just take anything at any time, Yeah, there's that, but that kind of behavior kind of gets down refined to a couple of them. The illusion that alcohol and marijuana are not a problem in recovery, you're saying that they are. Yeah. And they can't. And for

SPEAKER_00: 39:10

you, you have the addict mind. I mean, I would really say for anyone. But I mean, if you have the addict mind, like you are lying to yourself.

SPEAKER_03: 39:18

Yeah. And everybody else. Yeah. And you're trying to convince them of that crap.

SPEAKER_00: 39:22

Yeah. And they'll believe you because they don't have that. They don't get it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 39:26

Yeah. Unless they're one of us. Right.

SPEAKER_00: 39:29

If I could say that's the one. I think you've said this to me before. Or I heard this somewhere else, but addiction is so sinister because the delusion you have as an addict is contagious. Those around you are delusional. And it's like, yeah, that's like a societal thing, but like it's a terrifying thing about it.

SPEAKER_03: 39:50

That's why it's important to get into the recovery community when you're working on recovery. Because if you hang with the people you were hanging with before, the delusion gets reinvigorated in you. So you got to get into the recovery community where there are people just like you that are your peers that understand what you just said. Because they're living that way too. And so they get away from it. And I guess the other thing is, it's a journey process. And it's a long one. The instantaneous recovery doesn't exist. It takes a lot of work. It takes a lot of time. It takes a lot of effort. And you really need to invest in your recovery. So my concept of. You have to surrender to your recovery. Just like you surrender to your addiction. And you have to work on it. And it takes a long time for you to get there.

SPEAKER_00: 40:41

And it can be very rewarding too. There's always. If you already have it. You know, having some silver lining to it. Because I know when I was going through it, hearing that, like, you know, forever. You know, it was like that kind of, I mean, that definitely turned me away from things.

SPEAKER_03: 41:02

Well, because your brain is telling you that you don't want to give it up forever. There's always a possibility, a chance that you can do it again someday, like a normal person.

SPEAKER_00: 41:09

Yeah. And just going out and being able to have, like, if I'm out at karaoke, I usually look like the drunkest person in the room. And I'm not drinking. Well, you

SPEAKER_03: 41:19

know, the great illusion and the lie, there are two people that are prime examples of that. One is Philip Seymour Hoffman, the actor who died from a heroin overdose after 23 years being clean. Successful career, lots of money, married, three kids, little kids, dies from an overdose in his Greenwich Village apartment with 72 packets of heroin.

SPEAKER_00: 41:44

I didn't know that was, I knew he died of heroin. I didn't know. Oh

SPEAKER_03: 41:48

yeah. That's one. Okay. Um, 23 years clean. The second one is the most recent high profile person who's died. And, um, Matthew Perry and he, he died because he was doing ketamine, but ketamine didn't kill him. He was also doing benzos. And the combination of those two caused his physical body to have a reaction where he's not going to, he becomes sedated. And so he's in a hot tub by himself and he lost consciousness, but without the benzos and the combination of benzos and ketamine, he would have had that mammalian reflex to breathe, to fight, to breathe. It was gone. He didn't have that. Same thing happened to Whitney Houston. Same thing happened to Whitney Houston's daughter. Same thing happened to Prince. They don't, you lose, your brain doesn't fight to stay alive. It doesn't fight to breathe. And that's what killed him. He drowned. Ketamine did not kill him. It was a combination of those things. And he was using those things all the while he's saying, clean and sober. Lie, right? You're lying. You're not clean and sober.

SPEAKER_00: 43:04

I was celebrated for my sobriety for seven years when I wasn't sober. People wanted to play right into my delusion. Fake sober.

SPEAKER_03: 43:15

So there is a possibility for that chance to be able to get there. You just have to work it really hard, right? And you're living proof that you can actually get there. And you're a testament to that struggle. But if you can, you know, all you have to do is just, you know, start to move that direction. You might have to hit bottom. You kept bouncing around on the bottom, but you might have to hit bottom, and you're going to, along that path, that road back out is a rocky road to get out of addiction.

SPEAKER_00: 43:42

Sometimes you hit that rock bottom and you get a, you know... drill bit that can get through that rock bottom

SPEAKER_03: 43:49

there's another

SPEAKER_00: 43:50

there's another bottom below below that crust yeah but there is there is a bliss to rock bottom which can be that like moment of clarity changing moment where you go from like powerless to having the power to do something about it yeah And that's like the best, like in that moment, lean into it before it's gone. Because it will go away if you don't act on it in that time.

SPEAKER_03: 44:16

Sure. And you have to place more value on yourself along that path. And that's what a lot of people, especially my treatment model, I'm treating trauma. I'm not treating addiction. So I'm working on the cause of your addiction and trying to help you get through the healing from the trauma. And that's a long time. It's, you know, you probably spent years being traumatized and some stories are way worse than others, but it doesn't mean yours isn't bad. It just means that there are some that are worse and some that are better, but your trauma is yours. So work on the trauma. And you will get clean and sober.

SPEAKER_00: 44:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 44:55

Because you don't have to use it anymore.

SPEAKER_00: 44:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 44:57

Well, I want to thank you for coming in today. Thank you. I think you had a really good story. And I hope that people will learn something from this. We have listeners from all over the globe, different countries, Germany and South Africa and France and England and the United States. I mean, they're all in Canada. They're all over the place. So hopefully you've been able to speak words into their lives that will give them hope for change in their addiction and and or to continue their work on recovery because you're living proof that it can happen.

SPEAKER_00: 45:28

That's always the hope. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 45:29

So thanks for coming.

SPEAKER_00: 45:30

Yeah, thank you.

SPEAKER_03: 45:31

All right. Well, I hope you enjoyed this episode of Doc Shock, Your Addiction Lifeguard. As much as I have. If you like these podcasts, please leave a review on whatever platform you're listening and let other listeners know how much you enjoyed the episode. If you need help, you can reach out to me through my website, wellspringmindbody.com. Shock Converter, Doc Shock, Your Addiction Lifeguard. That's me hoping that you can get sane, stable, and sober and live a better And like I said in the podcast, let's learn how to be peaceful. It's so much better than being a caddy. So get some help, find a way to get it, and let's start getting better. Okay? So until next time, this is Doc Shock saying, see ya.