Episode #135: Unlocking the Secrets of Disney's World with Author Aaron H. Goldberg

Join the enchantment as we welcome Disney authority and author, Aaron H. Goldberg, to our podcast realm, where tales of Disney's clandestine past and the meticulous creation of its world unfold. With Brittany on the mend, we seize the moment to rekindle the magic from our anniversary episode, indulging in Aaron's treasure trove of anecdotes from his book "Buying Disney's World." Engross yourself in the narrative fabric that weaves together the history of iconic resorts and attractions, revealing how a single ride like Peter Pan's Flight can encapsulate the essence of Disney's immersive storytelling.

As we wade into the depths of Disney's anthropological and cultural intricacies, Aaron casts a spell, illuminating the social dynamics that make Disney World a unique tapestry of human interaction. Our discussion meanders through the origins of Bay Lake's transformation and touches upon the egalitarian pulse that thrives within the park's bounds. It's a glimpse into the world where strangers become friends and shared experiences weave bonds, underscoring the powerful sense of community that Disney fosters among its guests.

Concluding our journey, we reminisce on the evolution of EPCOT, reflecting on the vision that Walt Disney harbored for it and the tapestry of influence that shaped its current incarnation. We share intimate moments and confessions from our solo adventures within the Disney domain, highlighting the personal connection each visitor can forge amidst the throngs of fellow dreamers. Settle in for this heartwarming episode where we celebrate the individual magic that touches every soul who walks through the gates of the Happiest Place on Earth. 

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Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:21

Hello everyone and welcome to Circle of Parks podcast episode number 135. Unfortunately we will not be doing our hotel review for the Dolphin Hotel, like we had originally planned on doing, because Brittany is very sick this week. She's feeling better later this week. We'll record it and release it immediately upon recording, but she's not feeling very well this week right now and hopefully she'll get better later this week. I know a lot of people have been sick this week. Our youngest, nolan, is very sick as well. Meanwhile, me and our oldest, ryan, has managed to steer clear of that. But for now, unfortunately, brittany is not feeling well and we didn't want to leave y'all hanging this week. So we decided to replay an older episode that we thought was really good and that is our one year anniversary episode with our favorite Disney author, aaron H Goldberg.

Speaker 1: 1:19

Aaron is an award winning author and my mentor. As I have began writing, I don't want to call myself an author. I think it's a little much for me. I'm just writing right now. He has been featured on CNN, the New York Times, the Wall Street Journal, nbc News, the Los Angeles Times, the Orlando Sentinel and the San Francisco Chronicle.

Speaker 1: 1:41

His books include the Disney Story Chronicleing the man, the Mouse and the Parks, the Wonders of Walt Disney World. Meet the Disney Brothers Presenting Disneyland, which are never before seen. Color photos of the opening day of Disneyland have not seen that yet. I'm looking forward to it. And my favorite book of his is called Buying Disney's World. It's a great look and it's complexities and the secrecy that it took to acquire the land for Walt Disney World and it's truly amazing how long of a process it was, how detailed of a process it was and just what it took to get the amount of land that they needed at a reasonable price and do it in secret so they wouldn't jack the prices up per acre. It's a great book. It's my favorite one of his again, buying Disney's World Great, great book. His books are available to all major retailers, including Amazon and Audible, which is I listen to them on Audible. I listen to all my books, they're great and you can also find them on his website, wwwaranghgoldbergcom.

Speaker 1: 2:53

So again, great interview. I thought it's one of our older episodes. I thought it was a great interview, but before we get to that, disney tribute this week, unfortunately, no winner this week. The question was what was the opening date of the Dolphin Hotel? And the correct answer is June 4th 1990. Had several people answer with the opening date of Walt Disney World and that is not correct.

Speaker 1: 3:19

Also, this podcast is sponsored by Main Street Travel Company. Go check them out, wwwmainstreettravelcocom. They're on Instagram, facebook and YouTube. We use them for all of our Disney and non-Disney travel needs and again, our favorite thing about them is you can call them 1-800-593-1262. There are some special offers, exclusive for Circle of Parks listeners only, so tell them. We sent you and again, they are just amazing. We love dealing with Main Street Travel Company. Now. We hope you enjoy this interview with Aaron H Goldberg. I apologize in advance of the audio. We did not have the best equipment back then, but hopefully you enjoy it and hopefully we will talk to you again later this week. Thank you everybody for joining us. We have the award winning author, our favorite author for Disney, aaron H Goldberg, with this. Aaron, welcome to the show. Thank you so much for joining us. It's such an honor to have you on yes, welcome.

Speaker 3: 4:20

Oh, thank you so much and thank you for the kind words.

Speaker 1: 4:22

Well, thank you so much for taking time out of your busy schedule to do this interview with us. It's a special one for us it's our one year anniversary. Yay, we made it. I didn't know if we would make it or not.

Speaker 2: 4:33

But it's been a fast year really, really has.

Speaker 1: 4:35

Yeah, thank you so much, aaron, for joining us.

Speaker 3: 4:38

And of course.

Speaker 1: 4:39

If you don't know, aaron is an award winning author and we've recommended his books on our podcast. We have several listeners read them based on our recommendations. By far my favorite book is Buying Disney's World, talking about the construction of Walt Disney World. And, of course, construction of a park can't just for Disney, it can't just be basic. It has to be very complicated and very, very in depth. And Buying Disney's World is amazing. The Disney story. That's next on my list to read Brittany. You've just read the Meet the Disney Brothers and I'm currently reading the Wonders of Walt Disney World.

Speaker 2: 5:15

Yes, and the Disney Brothers book it was. It had me thinking of our own kids in a way, with the brother dynamics. But it was definitely a good read and I've put it in your stash when you have time to.

Speaker 1: 5:29

Yeah, definitely next. So thank you, aaron, so much. We're going to ask you a few questions, kind of pick your brains, and we wanted to interview Aaron because I think his books really do a good job of helping you appreciate the parks a lot more. And that's what we try to get you to do on our podcast is slow down, appreciate what this is. And there's so much in depth in these parks. It's not just running from attraction to attraction, there's stories in these attractions and every name that you hear or every word that you see has a story behind it. And Aaron man, you go really in depth with this stuff and thank you so much.

Speaker 3: 6:11

You're welcome. I mean I think we share the same mindset there. It really is all in the details. I often say that if you see something in a Disney park, obviously it's deliberately there, whether you know why or what, or sometimes you don't know the backstory on something, but there's always a story to something that you see there and I think that's the real, the uniqueness and the real appreciation of a place like Magic Kingdom.

Speaker 3: 6:39

I think also, often we sort of just stroll into the park and maybe not even stroll, maybe we just try and get down and make sure as fast as we can get to the hub, go left, go right and get to where we want to go, but there's so much you miss along the way, there's so many random, just random. So you get to the hub and you look to the left, you get Casey's Corner and you see red and white umbrellas that are right in front of Casey's Corner, on the left side, and those red and white umbrellas also first stage right there. So red and white for first stage. So there's like there's things that just are there, that you don't even realize are there, and you're like, oh, after someone mentions it to you, like wow, that makes total sense. So red and white for, like you know, first stage and there it is. It's one of those random things that you know you marvel at after you find out about it.

Speaker 1: 7:25

Wow, that's awesome. Well, we've got some good questions for you, and then at the end, I like to do Disney trivia every week. I've got two questions for you and it's kind of I'm going to call it stump the author. I'm sure you're going to know these, but these are some of my favorite ones that probably I had to do a lot of research on.

Speaker 3: 7:40

If you're okay with that, Uh-oh, yeah, I hope I live up to the expectations.

Speaker 1: 7:45

Oh, I'm sure you'll, you'll know these, but, brittany, why don't you start us off? We're going to start off kind of easy and then kind of go in more depth with some of the questions, if you're okay with that, aaron.

Speaker 3: 7:55

Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 2: 7:56

All right, so starting off a little easy. And so how old were you when you first went to a Disney park?

Speaker 3: 8:05

I was an infant. I don't know exactly. There's pictures floating around. I actually came across them. I don't know if they're from my dad and we were in the contemporary. I got to say it was probably, you know, 1981, 82, somewhere in there about. So yeah, I was. I was just a wee little one.

Speaker 1: 8:27

Oh, wow.

Speaker 2: 8:28

That's sweet.

Speaker 1: 8:29

So my first question is going to be what is your favorite themed attraction in Walt Disney World and one your favorite fact about that attraction?

Speaker 3: 8:39

Oh, the favorite, that's, that's so, that's so. That's tough, Like like picking your favorite child. Well, this is my, which, which probably is. As time goes on, I feel like that could probably get easier. As you, you know, have more children and experience for them, I feel like a favorite always stands out at some point. I have two older sisters and I always joke to say that you know, I was always the favorite.

Speaker 2: 9:04

Whether it's true or not, it was always that way in my mind.

Speaker 3: 9:08

I think, honestly, I think the carousel of progress is probably my favorite. I love the music and I love the backstory, how it goes back to, you know, the 64 World Fair and I know that you know it was a favorite of Walt's. I feel like, and I could sit there every day, all day, and just listen to the music and yeah, it just something resonates with me on a different level than, say, you know, the Haunted Mansion or Pirates of the Caribbean or things like that.

Speaker 1: 9:34

Yeah, Wow, yeah, I completely agree with you and you are authored in the Library of Congress. Talking about the World's Fair, I've read yes, I wrote a piece for.

Speaker 3: 9:47

so it's a small world. The song was inducted into the Library of Congress is like. I forget what they call it, so I think they call it like a recording registry, so it's the songs. Every year they take a handful of songs that are culturally relevant, you know popular famous blah, blah, blah or something along those lines, and they inducted. They wanted the it's a small world song written by the Sherman Brothers, inducted in and they inducted it this year and they had me write sort of like an essay or a historical piece on the background of it and things like that.

Speaker 1: 10:19

That's awesome, wow. So what is your favorite fact about the carousel of progress?

Speaker 3: 10:27

So my favorite fact about the carousel of progress you think about that one, there's a lot. There is a lot. I think, one of the, I think one of the interesting. There's a random story about the man who I'm going to probably butcher the story because I didn't put it in one of my books, but I remember reading at some point. So the man who plays the father, the look of his face was molded after. Obviously it was taken from somebody, from somebody. He was a living person and at some point he didn't tell his family what he was, that he was involved in, and he didn't tell his family that he was going to be in this, you know, in this, in this, you know in this attraction, or even that it was an attraction at this point, and he ended up passing away and years later, like decades later, like I believe, either late 90s, early 2000s, his family found out that he posed for it and that was him. And they went to.

Speaker 3: 11:31

Yeah, they went to see the attraction and, boom, there was their dad, or you know somebody to likeness of their dad and I thought that was just that's. I mean, that's just the story. I may have mangled up some of the fine details, but the gist of it was he was the model for it, didn't tell anybody about it, he passed away before anybody knew about it. And they come to find out he, it was him and I always thought that was a really cool story.

Speaker 1: 11:51

That's amazing, your grandfather's living on.

Speaker 3: 11:55

Yes, in that legacy.

Speaker 1: 11:57

That's amazing.

Speaker 3: 11:58

Wow yeah.

Speaker 2: 11:59

That would be something to see too, yeah, wow.

Speaker 3: 12:02

Wow, yeah, we're either, and maybe it might even be. You know, my mom passed away a bunch of years ago, so I don't know. Part of me was like, oh, I don't know if I'm. Part of me was like, you know, it's kind of crazy to go back here and see, you know, your loved one here. That meant some so much and like bitter sweet, I'm sure, for some of them, but yeah, oh, yeah, for sure.

Speaker 2: 12:19

Well, and when you mentioned the carousel of progress, like so the last time we went to Magic Kingdom normally we always ride it, but the last time we went we did not, and we've mentioned several times since then like why did we skip it? We know not to skip it again we felt like something was missing from the trip.

Speaker 1: 12:36

Well there's, we were in that in the middle of doing new things we haven't done yet, and what are we going to do that? And there's always that battle of what are we going to leave out, you know and that's when we left out. And then we've missed it. We would never leave it out again.

Speaker 3: 12:53

Learn from experience right Definitely.

Speaker 2: 12:55

And even our youngest. You know he was like, oh, we didn't do it and he loves the dog in it, and so you know he was like we have to do it next time.

Speaker 3: 13:03

So absolutely Yep.

Speaker 2: 13:06

Okay. So question when you are looking into, like researching, Disney facts, have you been able to or have had access to Disney archives?

Speaker 3: 13:21

I have not. I have not been to the archives. It's sort of like often a hit or miss with them if they allow you in. I know people who have tried randomly on a whim and got in and I've no people who have tried and they said no. So I've never really I don't think I've ever really attempted. I sort of find my own way around with research and things like that. I like to rely, I like to rely heavily on, like the news of the day. So I'll go into, you know, like newspaper archives or some. You know, a lot of times you know, somebody's life work ends up in a university archive or things like that. So I've been to university archives and I do newspaper archives. I go to libraries and do microphone, microbeesh, things like that, but I've never dabbled in Disney's archives.

Speaker 2: 14:10

Okay, well, and you dove into my next question If, if not, do you do your research in different types of libraries?

Speaker 3: 14:17

So okay, yes, absolutely Like for buying Disney's world. I went into University. Central Florida has a pretty extensive archive of the life's work of Robert Foster, who was the attorney who did most of the land purchases for Disney, and for Buzz Price, who worked with Walt for, you know, tracking down locations for Disneyland and Walt Disney World and a ton of other things. They both basically left all their papers and their life's work to the university and you can make arrangements to go in there and check it all out.

Speaker 3: 14:50

Actually, and the other one is yeah, oh, and even Orange County Public Library in Orlando downtown, from the jump from like 69, 70, 71, disney sort of like anointed them there, you know, let's say like their keeper of materials and ephemera and things like that. So Disney would always contribute them and they've saved it all these decades. And again, it's another thing, you can go in there and check things out.

Speaker 2: 15:15

Okay, well, that's piqued my interest. I got my master's degree in library science, so I'm like, ooh okay, yeah, definitely.

Speaker 1: 15:24

Yeah, definitely mix the two there.

Speaker 3: 15:25

Yes, yes, yeah.

Speaker 1: 15:28

That was how long, so I'm going to piggyback off that. How long does it take you to research these books, like for buying Disney's world? How long did that take, research wise, to do?

Speaker 3: 15:40

So that I wanted to write that book for about six years and I had start and stopped and I did research over a course of several years and then I got stuck, you know, trying to start the book. You know how do I get this thing started. And then COVID hit and I was stuck at home like everybody else. Most of us were home and going nuts and I figured, you know what that's it, I'm just going to write this book. So that that was, you know, the compilation of several years to get that book in order. You know, it depends.

Speaker 3: 16:12

Sometimes I am a bit of an OCD personality and I'm like all or nothing and I'll sit for six months and and basically research and write the book, you know, 1215 hours a day just to get it done. Yeah, so it depends on, you know, I guess, my mindset. But you know, like, like meet the Disney brothers I knocked out in a relatively short amount of time, just because I sort of already knew the story and, you know, because I, you know, you know, lived it for you know all these years of you know consuming so much Disney. But yeah, I could. You know, I've done books in a month or two and I've done books in several years. But yeah, wow, long answer to short question. No, no, that's great to hear.

Speaker 1: 16:54

So we'll go with my next question. It's kind of another basic one. But what is your favorite themed resort and your favorite fact about that resort?

Speaker 3: 17:04

Oh, so I think the Polynesian is probably my favorite.

Speaker 1: 17:10

Great news Going yes.

Speaker 3: 17:14

Yeah, I mean I just, you know, I gotta be honest with you, I don't love the rooms. I sometimes think the rooms are kind of dark and depressing, but you know that's changing because they're redoing them. But just the resort itself is I mean, it's just a vibe and the ambiance and everything. It's like how can you not sit there and be happy and just soak it all up?

Speaker 1: 17:34

Yeah, we actually just stayed there in June in the new Moana room for one night. Loved it.

Speaker 2: 17:40

Yes, it's definitely bright, but it's not too much in your face, moana, either. I think they did it, you know, just very elegantly, you do have hey hey right next to the coffee maker, though that's kind of in your face in the morning, but you know that I kind of got a kick out of that, so yeah, that's pretty funny.

Speaker 1: 17:58

We just we love the vibe at the Polynesian. So what's your favorite?

Speaker 3: 18:01

one fact about the Polynesian so that actually it's like it's a known thing, but maybe not. Who knows? Maybe it's known because I'm a nerd, but that's the. That is where John Lennon signed the paperwork to dissolve the Beatles.

Speaker 1: 18:15

Yes.

Speaker 3: 18:16

Yeah, so I always think that's. I'm a huge Beatles fan, I love the Beatles, so I sort of it's crazy that that's where it all kind of came to an end, came to an end legally.

Speaker 1: 18:26

Yeah, and I didn't know that there's so much of that history in these resorts that people don't know about at the contemporary. That I'm not a crook speech from Nick's. Yes, was there? Yeah.

Speaker 3: 18:37

Yeah, that's another. You know these are two, like you know, culturally monstrous things that you know that the background on the setting was Disney.

Speaker 1: 18:44

Oh, I just, I love all of that, just love it. Yeah, all right, brittany.

Speaker 2: 18:51

Well, mine is more, I guess. Back to attractions. If you could focus on just the cue of an attraction, what is your top two?

Speaker 3: 19:03

Oh, okay, I really like the what they did with Peter Pan and I love like the addition there with the you know going in and you see the room and you see like the little fiber optics and you see you know Tinkerbell floating around and you know, like I, you know just the whole, the whole. You know like the whole extended queue that forever there wasn't an extended queue is sort of just waiting in line and those lines are always so long. So I really appreciate the little touch there to make you know time go by a little bit faster. And for the second one, let's take a second to you.

Speaker 3: 19:41

I feel like the honed mansion is the interactive part that they put in. It's kind of neat. It's another one that's like you can stand there forever and just go nuts. But once you sort of get moving towards the front and you see you know the organ and you see the captain or you know he's hanging out on the tub or not tub, but he, you know, is sort of drowning there. I think that's pretty, pretty clever too. And then when you get finally get up to the graveyard and you see all the tombstones. I think that's always neat because you know the names of the tombstones are folks who contributed to the attraction. I think that's a nice little wink and a nod to the folks who got it all together.

Speaker 2: 20:23

Yeah for sure, and, like with Peter Pan, there was one time where we didn't go through the queue and we missed it. We really felt like that was just so much more of an add on to the attraction itself.

Speaker 3: 20:36

So Absolutely yeah, I agree.

Speaker 1: 20:40

Yeah, and we haven't been through the long queue for how to imagine it, so we haven't gotten really to experience any of that. But I really want to, though. Yeah.

Speaker 3: 20:48

Yeah, oh yeah.

Speaker 2: 20:50

Yeah, the last time we finally got to experience the stretch room for the first time. Yes, because the time before COVID, you know, it wasn't open.

Speaker 3: 20:58

Oh, yeah, yeah, I love that part. Until everybody starts reciting the lines and screaming and doing all that stuff, but yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1: 21:07

All right, so mine's going to get a little more in depth here. So, for our younger listeners, your degree is in anthropology. Can you explain to our younger listeners what is anthropology and how do you use it, being a Disney author and historian?

Speaker 3: 21:23

Sure. So anthropology is basically the study of man, the study of culture, and then there's a few like other subsets there. So archaeology often falls into anthropology. So there's a mix of history, there's a little mix of science, there's a little grab bag of everything there which is just sort of what appealed to me. I sort of like the cultural anthropology, I like a little bit of archaeology. So you know, and where else I mean think about Disney. So it's like study of the study of man and the study of people and things, civilizations and things like that.

Speaker 3: 21:56

So you come to Disney World and I mean the people watching is tremendous. You can really soak up. Everybody could be like an amateur anthropologist. You sit back and watch the world go by. There's no better place to see like the cross section of America or, frankly, the cross section of the world. So many people come to Walt Disney World and it's always interesting to sort of see what's going on around you.

Speaker 3: 22:18

Which the other random thing I always think about is there's not too many places, you know, like a sort of quick cultural observation. There's not too many places in the world, or even in the country, where you would go on public transportation and probably talk to the person next to you or feel safe talking to the person next to you or interacting. You know most people sort of either don't interact or don't communicate, whether they're buried in their phone or they have their headset on or whatever, where they just want to get to work or they have to go and not be bothered. But I mean you come to Walt Disney World and think about how many times you go on the monorail, how many times you go on a bus and you engage and talk to the family next to you or folks next to you. It's like you laugh or whatever. It's just an interesting dynamic that comes out when you're in the parks.

Speaker 1: 23:01

Yeah, I would. And so this kind of brings me back to why I fell in love with Disney. That you know I was really big into politics and I didn't want to get too much in myself. I was really big into politics before we started going to Walt Disney World. I don't do that stuff anymore, but I worried so much about how I looked and what I look like and what suit I was wearing and what other people were saying about me. When you go to Disney World, nobody cares, everybody's there for the same reason.

Speaker 1: 23:28

No one's judging Everybody's. Kids are screaming and yelling. No one's judging anybody. They're all there for the same reason and I loved that about it.

Speaker 3: 23:39

Yeah, everything's level playing field and you know, most people are in a good mood. I mean, I know sometimes not in a tough family, but I feel like if you were to get on a bus or on a monorail and talk to the person next to you, they would reciprocate. And you know, whatever I mean, I feel like oftentimes or maybe I'm jaded because I'm from the Northeast, you know, filled up in New York DC, you're probably not really talking to many folks around you, you're kind of just going to do your thing and move on. But it's different and maybe there's a, you know, being in the South, if that's another component, I don't know, but I always feel like there's less tension or less. You know, that's like friendliness is a little bit. It's like a notch up here when you're down, when you're at Walt Disney World.

Speaker 1: 24:22

Definitely.

Speaker 2: 24:23

Yeah, I mean, we usually talk to people on the monorail. And then there was one time on our first trip down when our youngest was like four and I just couldn't get him awake off the bus and we were at our stop and the lady was like I'll hold your bag for you so you can pick him up. You know, it was just that's what you do.

Speaker 3: 24:41

Yeah, and that's not something you would encounter. You usually don't encounter that, nor would you trust to. You know, have somebody hold your bag, or you know what. I'm saying, I feel like, again, I couldn't be a little more jaded, but I feel like things are just like okay, let's you know everybody's here a little more understanding, or they get the. You know, I've been here with a kid and you know we know what goes on here, so yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2: 25:04

So yeah, I would definitely agree to that, and you've had those experiences and people moving out of the way when we used to have the double strollers.

Speaker 3: 25:11

Yeah, exactly, all right.

Speaker 1: 25:16

My next one is going. So going back to buying Disney's land, my favorite, and this is my favorite. Sorry, buying Disney's world, Sorry about that. My favorite gee whiz kind of fact that I like to tell people is the sand around all the resorts came from the bottom of Bay Lake.

Speaker 3: 25:35

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 25:37

So talk about why did they drain Bay Lake to begin with, how long did it take in? Or why did they drain it? How long did it take to drain and refill it?

Speaker 3: 25:52

So they drained it. Well, one of the things when Walt was on property and wasn't and he wasn't on property at all, unfortunately, you know, he passed in 66. But when he was on property he wanted the water to be clean and clear, obviously not necessarily going to get it clear, but he really wanted it cleaned up and the water was stained and it was terrible through Bay Lake in his eyes. So there was a lot of stumps, there were a lot of just a lot of muck and things that they wanted to clear out and sort of start fresh and then stock it again with fish.

Speaker 3: 26:30

So, off the top of my head, I can't tell you how long it took, but I think I'm 99% sure it's in the book Somewhere. I think I said how long it took for them to drain it and then they drained it. They went through and basically bulldozed everything, grabbed all the muck out, all the stumps, all the roots, everything, and then started digging away and underneath the lake bed was this beautiful pristine white sand which then they used to line the shores of Seville which you know. It's like a eureka moment there.

Speaker 1: 27:03

Yeah, that's just one of my favorite G-Wiz things. I could tell. They're like no way. I'm like no, it's really from the bottom of Bay Lake. They're like oh, that's awesome.

Speaker 2: 27:10

Yeah, you can share that on a few of our episodes too. Yep, all right, oh sorry, go ahead.

Speaker 3: 27:16

I think the word no, no, no, I think. For some reason the word sticks out panic. K-a-n-n-i-c or K-A-N-I-C is what they called the water. The water was panic, damn okay. For some reason, that's what sticks out. I don't have the book in front of me, or else I would grab it, so I apologize on that, but I forget what I mean. It took forever, you know. I feel like it was a substantial amount of time to drain and then refill, and then they stocked it with Bance to. You know if they have a tap there going.

Speaker 1: 27:45

Yeah, so go ahead, brittany. Oh, okay.

Speaker 2: 27:50

Well, going back to earlier, you were saying how you know if you see something, there's a reason, it's there. You know everything is there for a reason. So we know and we have learned, you know, to take our time more going down Main Street looking at windows and details. You know, in and on the windows of these buildings, is there any one of those that stands out to you the most that you feel like you have to see every time you go?

Speaker 3: 28:18

So not necessarily a window, but there is something in Liberty Square that always fascinates me. It's adjacent to the whole of presidents and if you look at a very obscure wall there is like a sort of like a bronze plaque of a hand inside of a hand inside of a hand. It looks like, you know, three or four hands are shaking. And so I was born and raised in Philadelphia. You know the birthplace of America, so to speak, and much of old city Philadelphia is. You know, a lot of the back to the 1700s. It's still standing, a lot of buildings are still there, and back in the day Ben Franklin basically came up with a thing called fire insurance. So if you had insurance on your building and your place called on fire and you had the hand in the hand in the hand outside of your on your on, you know, facing the building, they would come and basically put out the fire. You had fire insurance.

Speaker 3: 29:16

Now you could find that little placard in Liberty Square which to me is like such a detail. That's amazing, and I often go look for it to make sure it's still there, because I know things come and go, you know, at Disney World. But you know, maybe two or three years ago I was driving through Center City, philadelphia, and I've stopped the traffic line. I just happened to look to the left and there was a building and it was still there and I was like, oh my God, look at that, there it is and that's still what's in Liberty Square and it's just like such a like a wonderful little novelty, a little detail that they included that you'll walk by a million times and I have no idea and I venture to say maybe even if it's a cast number, they wouldn't even know. But that's like, you know, research in detail to the you know what degree here that Disney does. It's so cool, that's awesome. I would have to look for that you yes.

Speaker 2: 30:05

Yeah, next.

Speaker 3: 30:09

And I put that in. That's actually in the wonders of Walt Disney World and I believe there's a picture. I'm 99% sure I took a picture of it and it's in the book in the Magic Kingdom chapter.

Speaker 1: 30:21

Wow, and that's what I love so much about Liberty Square. There's so much detail that they put that's historically accurate.

Speaker 3: 30:31

Exactly.

Speaker 1: 30:31

Like that's just amazing.

Speaker 3: 30:33

Yeah, like who thought of that? I mean like who thought of like. We have to include that. That's historically accurate. Let's put this on a building and people are going to walk by and have no idea.

Speaker 1: 30:42

Right, and the detail, like the leather straps that are used to keep the windows open and closed.

Speaker 3: 30:51

Yeah, the authenticity is always. It's just remarkable to me and that's, you know, in some respects it's almost like that's and maybe this is why, like, you start to sound like an old man. It's like you know to get those kids off my lawn, but it's like you miss something with some of these. These parks and the new things, and new things are fantastic but, like, some of the details just don't always make the cut or, you know, it's just different. I mean, it's just to create a Magic Kingdom. Now, you know, I'm sure it'd be vastly different, I'm sure it would be. Who knows how they would do it or what could get included? Or so much of this history is forgotten and gone, like I'm sure the average person would. You know, nobody knows what they're looking at and who knows that the younger generation of Imagineers would even come across something like that to include into the park?

Speaker 1: 31:39

So, yeah, Well, I would venture just to say they probably wouldn't even include a Liberty Square.

Speaker 3: 31:45

now, no, you're right, I would agree with that.

Speaker 1: 31:48

Yeah, because people just run right through Liberty Square to get to Frontierland to do Big Thunder Mountain or Splash Mountain, which are great in their own right, but there's so much to yeah. Like you can actually have a legit history lesson from Liberty Square.

Speaker 3: 32:04

Yeah, yeah, 100%. And then and then, and then it's like you know this is a good subject that could go sideways real fast. But then again it's like you know how people perceive history and you know the political climate of the day and things like that. Some of the history people don't, you know, appreciate or hear or want to remember, or maybe it's hurtful or harmful or whatever. So these are things that you know, probably you know let's just keep things in the land to make believe it's easier. Yeah.

Speaker 2: 32:32

Yeah, no, I was smiling a second ago because when you mentioned history lesson, you've often joked like oh you know if the boys missed a day of school or something? Well, they're still learning. We're doing history.

Speaker 1: 32:44

Yeah, so I'm a big proponent of bringing kids out of school to go to Walt Disney World because of lower crowd times. We always, because Brittany is a teacher and we always go during the break so it's always crowded but you learn so much, like I think the teachers should be like hey, if you can bring me one historical fact back from Walt Disney World, I'll excuse like a, two of your days or something like that.

Speaker 2: 33:06

It's not up to the teacher.

Speaker 3: 33:07

Yeah, and, and you know, what, and again, not to sound like, you know, like the broken record or the old man or get on like the, the big Twitter band, right, and I'm being disappointed about things.

Speaker 3: 33:17

But that's what was so wonderful about Epcot and that's, you know, one of the and I know things change and they have to change, but a lot of that was the edutainment aspect. There was education within a lot of those things and new things coming along, and so you know, but I guess maybe, listen, kids are different now, but you know it's, it's a different society it's like. But Epcot, when it opened was, you know, there were so many folks there that was their first encounter with a computer or haptics on a touchscreen. These are things that nobody, you know, you didn't have any of these things at home, or you know, just there was small history lessons or things wherever you went and you didn't, you were, you were learning, but you didn't as a kid, you didn't necessarily know it, but you still enjoyed it and that was the beauty of you know the early, some of the early, you know, enterprises in the parks.

Speaker 1: 34:02

Well, that's a great segue into my next question. All right, yeah. So how did we go from progress city to what we have at Epcot now?

Speaker 3: 34:14

So you know, I often think, being the nerd, that I am, what, if you know, what if Walt Disney lived another 10 years? I'm not that creative so I couldn't write a fiction thing. I'm pretty cut and dry. I'm pretty nonfiction in the way I view things. But so we got what we have today is because Walt passed away and so instead of the community of tomorrow and Progress City and all those wonderful things that sound amazing, we sort of, I think, got a hybrid theme park with a World's Fair to sort of check some boxes for the state legislature of Florida. So one of the reasons and it's a hot topic issue now with the Reedy Creek, with the governor of Florida that's been found at this band Reedy Creek, that their district that oversees everything. So I think they sort of I think Disney felt they wanted to do another park.

Speaker 3: 35:15

At the time Nobody could do what Walt wanted to do the creatively and imagine that it just wasn't gonna happen. They weren't gonna be able to put that together the way he would have done it. So they put together the World Showcase and Future World and that's what we got. But I think a lot of it was done because primarily the Florida project going in was more so about Epcot or Walt's version or Dream of Epcot, and not necessarily about a theme park. The theme park was gonna be a tertiary thing. It was something to lure folks down to his Utopian city and that would get them there and they would come on property and they would drive through Epcot and they would drive through his property and eventually at the end they'd get to the theme park and he would make he was gonna force everybody to.

Speaker 3: 36:04

If you're coming to the Disney world, you're gonna see everything first and at the end of the property you're gonna get Magic Kingdom and that was gonna be that. That's how he was gonna entice and lure you in. So I feel like in some respects that they sort of had to justify putting a project in of Epcot to sort of the way it was pitched was we're gonna do all these things and we require certain things from the state and the state agreed and there's still many people who are on the bandwagon of Disney, sort of duped us and blah, blah, blah, blah. We didn't get the community that they promised. But that's the way it goes. It's the way the world, unfortunately.

Speaker 1: 36:45

Well, let me piggyback off that real quick. Frank Wells and Michael Eisner came in in the early 80s and some people have liked them to Roy and Walt. So Michael Eisner being the business side as Roy and Frank Wells being the imagination side, like Walt, do you think they could have got it done? Just your opinion.

Speaker 3: 37:10

You know that's interesting because there's another what-up. So what if Frank Wells did tragically pass away?

Speaker 2: 37:14

Right.

Speaker 3: 37:15

How vastly different would the company be. You know, I don't know if anybody could walk in Walt's footsteps, so to speak, and do what he really wanted to do. I do think the company would have been. Who knows what would have come to fruition from that era. I mean, that was, you know, I know Michael Eisner sort of some people. You know he's kind of polarizing some of the Disney folks, although I think he really he shaped the company as much as Walt did, remarkably. You know, florida was totally changed under the expansion, under Eisner was incredible.

Speaker 3: 37:50

But I don't know that anybody could do it other than Walt. I really don't. He just had the vision and the dream that I don't think anybody else, and you know I think he's, you know, along the lines of, like you know, steve Jobs or Henry Ford or Elon Musk. You know those kind of folks are, like you know, once in a generation or you know, twice in a generation, kind of people that, yeah, frank Wells was wonderful and they were. You know, eisner worked together and Eisner would have taken more chances and Wells not passed away, and blah, blah, blah. But I still don't think that we get it. We get it. I think it was, you know, done with Walt, and maybe it's better off because you know who wants to try and follow that lead.

Speaker 1: 38:27

Yeah, that's tough.

Speaker 2: 38:29

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 38:30

So, Brady, what you got.

Speaker 2: 38:33

Well, mine was more. I thought maybe to end it later.

Speaker 1: 38:36

So if you want to go ahead, Okay, I got one more and it's about Spaceship Earth. So you posted on your Instagram and Twitter today a picture of Horizons. What's the old test track one again, I forgot the name of it World of Motion. World of Motion, horizons and Spaceship Earth being built, and it amazes me that there's just all like this bare earth around it and that these structures are being built out of the ground. That just blows my mind. That Main Street used to be just a dirt road. You know and just I love the pictures that you put up on your Instagram and Twitter. Again, go check them out at Aaron H Goldberg.

Speaker 3: 39:18

Thank you. My question I'm obsessed with the construction photos and I'm obsessed with I mean early on on the Twitter I would do a lot of Disneyland, I would do a lot of movies, I would sort of do a lot of Walt, but like past year or two, it's just so heavy on Walt Disney World and those Epcot photos, the construction photos, just it's fascinating to me. It's just amazing. Like you said, it's like from something to nothing and so grand and so, yeah, just remarkable.

Speaker 1: 39:48

So yeah, going off that, can you talk about the unique construction of Spaceship Earth Cause? It looks like this huge geodesic dome is sitting on these pylons, but it's actually not.

Speaker 3: 40:01

Can you talk about that? Yeah, so this is again. I should have brushed up on some of the stuff. But so those pylons, so the pylons you know. So there was an interesting quote from John Hinch who, when Walt passed away and you know we get into the 70s and into the early 80s, he was like huge design guy for Disney and saw a lot of things through. But he there's a quote from him from I think it was maybe opening day of Epcot, and he said that those pylons were like two arms reaching out give you a hug.

Speaker 3: 40:36

Who wouldn't want to like get a hug and who wouldn't want to see that? It's such a welcoming and warming thing? I mean, that's like all you have to like, that's all you need to hear, right, I mean you see that, and it's so grand and it is so you know I can't remember how many feet they went into the ground and that it withstands, you know, a hurricane, winds of like category four and it collects, you know. So the Spaceship Earth. Actually there's gutters there that collects rain. As the rain comes in, it collects and actually goes back out into the lagoon. The world showcases lagoon. So the engineering was incredible. Yeah, and I just, you know it's one of those fascinating feats that I was interested to see.

Speaker 3: 41:20

You know, d23, they were gonna announce a. You know they were gonna do it sort of like a refresh on Spaceship Earth. They announced it before COVID. Covid put the ax on it, I guess. So Spaceship Earth is sort of gonna stay the way it is for now and I guess you know, in some ways that's fine. It's one of my favorite rides.

Speaker 1: 41:37

Yeah, I'm okay with a little refresh, but don't like change the story or anything. Yes, exactly.

Speaker 2: 41:43

Yeah, I want it to be very similar, maybe, like some of the animatronics get updated but not an overall you know, right, yeah, keep the storyline, yeah.

Speaker 1: 41:55

All right, so that's just the last question. I got Brittany, what's your-?

Speaker 2: 41:57

Well, mine, was more just taking it back to. You know, like now, if you were to have a day to yourself in Walt Disney World, what would that ideal day look like? You know, from morning to evening, you know. Do you stay and watch the fireworks? Do you go ahead and leave? Do you go, maybe, to Polynesian and watch them from the beach? And then like if you had a choice, you know, of food to eat and stuff, do you do the Spring Roll Card or do you eat at Cosmic Rays or Columbia Harbor House, things like that.

Speaker 3: 42:31

My day and, to be honest, I've had a lot of those solo days. I've had a ton of those solo days and I really enjoy them. I feel like it's an underrated thing to visit Disney World by yourself and just kind of sit there and soak it up. But honestly, normally what I would do is I get up and go in the morning and I'd sit on Main Street and I basically just sit on Main Street and kind of soak up the background music and soak up people, the comings and goings. I could literally sit there for an hour or two and just soak it all up. I then usually watch.

Speaker 3: 43:02

I usually hit the People Mover, hit the Carousel Progress, hit the Haunted Mansion and Pirates, and then we walk back out. I would usually stop at Casey's Corner, grab a hot dog and then, if it's an ambitious day, I would go over to Epcot and before they change the background music to Future World, I would literally just sit there and listen to the background music. But there's something about the music. So much of Disney and so much of Disney Park's experience is about the music and the background music and unfortunately some of it has gone to the wayside. But yeah, okay, I'm very, I'm happy just to be in the environment and just soak it up.

Speaker 3: 43:43

No hustle and bustle, yeah.

Speaker 2: 43:44

Yeah, I tend to do that in the hub area, at least for like an hour or so, while sacking the boys go ride Space Mountain or Big Thunder. I'm like I'll just be in the hub area, get me some popcorn and just kind of people watch and soak it up.

Speaker 3: 43:58

So yeah, yeah, 100%. There's a talk that literally would just go sit on Main Street and hang out and not do any attractions. I mean, I've done that too, where I just kind of walk the parks or you go to the hub, make a right and just sort of walk around and make a left and then come back around and head out and out. Sometimes it's not even about the attractions, it's just about sort of being in the ambiance of it all.

Speaker 1: 44:20

Yeah, I can't wait to do that.

Speaker 2: 44:22

Well, your area is Tomorrowland.

Speaker 1: 44:25

I love. Tomorrowland is my favorite land, but I know what you're talking about. The old music in Futureland was amazing. Yes yes, yes, yes, yes, Just love it. So I think that's it for the questions I do have. We're gonna play a little stump with the author, see if we can do it.

Speaker 3: 44:43

No, I think you can. I have high hopes on you guys. I don't know.

Speaker 1: 44:46

I don't know, you're just a wealth of knowledge. All right, number one. At Columbia Harbor House in the Magic Kingdom, if you enter from the fantasy land entrance, above is a sign with the picture of a chicken and a fish. Why is that sign there?

Speaker 3: 45:06

Oh, you got me on, you honestly got me on this one. Really, a chicken and a fish, yeah, totally so I was expecting, like I was expecting something along the lines of, like, you know, the three-quartered hat, three-pointed hat, like the old George Washington's hat, or something with Thomas Jefferson. Yeah, there's a lot of you know the historical presidential kind of things there, but I don't have that one. I don't have the. Let me hear this one. This is new to me.

Speaker 1: 45:33

So, going back to the time, this is set in right. Yeah, most people were illiterate, so they had. They would know what was on the menu chicken or fish?

Speaker 3: 45:45

Wow, see that. Wow, that's awesome. Wow, that one. I didn't get that one. See, I'm not that much of a wealth.

Speaker 1: 45:53

No, you are. No, you are, I'm a fraud. You know you are. No, you are I. Just I really nerd out on this stuff too, just like you do. Next one's a movie question.

Speaker 3: 46:05

Okay.

Speaker 1: 46:06

Where in Hollywood Studios can you find a reference to the movie the Rocketeer?

Speaker 3: 46:14

So there's something I'm going to. It's going to be if I'm standing, if I'm walking down Hollywood Studios and 50s primetime cafes to the left there's Rocketeer stuff to the right. I sometimes get a frozen Coke there, but I don't remember.

Speaker 1: 46:30

Yeah, that's it. Yeah, pv's polar pipeline.

Speaker 3: 46:33

Yes, that's it Exactly there it is. You got it.

Speaker 1: 46:36

What is PV or who is PV?

Speaker 3: 46:45

That I don't. I haven't seen that movie in probably since I was a kid.

Speaker 1: 46:47

It's been a long time. This is one of my favorite nerdy facts about Hollywood Studios.

Speaker 3: 46:52

Yeah, hit me with that one. I don't, I don't.

Speaker 1: 46:54

PV's portrayed by actor Alan Arc in his rune, or his name in the movie is Ambrose Peabody, but he goes by PV and he was the mechanic for Cliff the pilot.

Speaker 3: 47:05

Yup Was that yeah. Yeah, it's probably been a good 20 years since I saw that movie and that's a great movie and that's like another. It's like a, you know, cult following movie. People love that movie. But yeah, that one escaped me. Good job, hey Joe. And reinforcing, reinforcing my fraudness.

Speaker 1: 47:23

No, no, no. There's so much. So our tagline is there's so much to see and do, we're here to help guide you through, and there's just.

Speaker 3: 47:29

That's great tagline.

Speaker 1: 47:30

Thank you. There's just so much in these parks that we love and you just have to stop and look around and there's so much history and backstories, like the, the, the light still on in the window in the Liberty Square I'm sure you know the history behind that. Like that's sad, but like the deed, like people just walked by and was like, oh, assistant, light in a in a window.

Speaker 3: 47:54

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1: 47:55

No, it's not.

Speaker 3: 47:56

Yeah, yeah, there's something. There's something behind it all which is fascinating.

Speaker 1: 48:01

Just in your books have inspired me to go and seek out these, this stuff and learn more about it. So thank you so much, aaron. You really inspired me, and a lot of our listeners have read your books based on our recommendations and they just they dive into it and love it, and it's just.

Speaker 3: 48:20

That's great.

Speaker 1: 48:20

There's. I guess it's just me being older and a dad, but I really appreciate a lot of this stuff.

Speaker 3: 48:27

Thank you, I appreciate the kind words and and spreading the gospel of of the books there. And you know what it is. It's, it's, you know, as you get older and you and you start to grow to appreciate history. I mean it's, it's history and a lot of this stuff. You know, obviously it's like it's. You know there's a. It's sort of like a quasi subculture here with Disney. But you know, if you look back on, you know the time when Walt was here and you know 30s, 40s, 50s, 60s, how much you know his influence shaped our country and shaped the culture of our country and the culture of the world and then unto itself here that you know the company itself has a, has such a history and subculture and it's just, it's fascinating. There's nothing else like it in the world and I think that's what makes this especially one of the things.

Speaker 1: 49:12

Yeah, Brittany, do you have anything else?

Speaker 2: 49:13

Well, I was just going to say I think that's why I enjoyed, like, when I say people watching, you know, because I mean there's families that travel here that maybe haven't even seen each other in years, you know, and and they meet here and you just see all these different emotions and you know, I've seen proposals done in front of the castle, you know, and even baby announcements, things like that, but it's just, it's just something to see, you know, just everybody coming together and kind of like what we were saying earlier. Just, you know, people seem a lot more friendly and easier to talk to you and you know, I think that's, you know, a lot of what Walt wanted as well, and so I just really enjoy, you know, sitting back and watching it all unfold and, like I said, I mean I do it for about an hour or so too.

Speaker 3: 49:58

So yeah, I mean it's nostalgia, it's a different. So universal is what universal is and the universal. You know, I don't think that you can't sort of compare the two. It's different. I mean it's just different that the historical legacy of, like, the Walt Disney Company versus, you know, is there a historical legacy of universal? Yeah, I mean, you know, change hands a bunch of times and things like that, but it's just different. There's a different. You know, I can't even explain what it is Like.

Speaker 3: 50:31

There's just a different substance to Disney that you know transcends, you know, it's just everywhere. And I know people say it's consumerism and it's merchandise. But I mean, if you think about, for you know decades here, you know, we're born, we watch Disney movies. We now we watch Disney television, we listen to the Disney radio. You go to the supermarket, you buy Disney food. You eventually come to you want to go to the Disney parks. The kids always want to go. So you see your characters, you sleep in the Disney bed. I mean it's, it's just, you know, you know it's a cradle of grave. Here Disney's got you covered.

Speaker 2: 51:06

Right, yeah, yeah, for sure, yeah, we, you know talking about grocery shopping and stuff. I mean we usually get those Mickey shaped goldfish at least once a month for the boys. So yeah, it's just something about. About Disney.

Speaker 3: 51:20

Yeah, pervasive, well, absolutely.

Speaker 1: 51:24

Thank you, aaron, for joining us. I know you have a very busy schedule. We really do appreciate you taking that time out of your schedule to do this great interview, and so tell everybody where they can find you on social media or your website or email, whatever.

Speaker 3: 51:38

Absolutely so. At Aaron H Goldberg on Twitter. At Aaron H Goldberg on Instagram AaronHGoldbergcom Books. Are you know? Wherever you want to buy a book, you could get my books. Yeah, if you want to listen to it on Audible, they're all on Audible and Zach and Brittany. I thank you guys so so much for having me on. It was a pleasure and it was great. We have to do it again sometime.

Speaker 1: 52:00

Definitely. It was an honor to have you on for our one university. We really do appreciate it.

Speaker 3: 52:04

Yes, thank you so much, and congratulations, yeah, some congrats on the one year, absolutely Thank you, you.