Navigating Mental Health with Emily Cox

Is mental health a conversation you avoid openly discussing? Join us for a compelling conversation on Demo with Mo, where we celebrate Mental Health Awareness Month with Emily Cox, a licensed clinical mental health counselor. Emily opens up about her personal journey into the mental health field, sharing how her own experiences and transformative therapy sessions shaped her commitment to helping others. Beyond her professional insights, you'll get a glimpse into Emily's passions for hiking, gardening, and culinary adventures. Listen as Emily shares her expertise in working with tweens, teens, and young adults, offering a nuanced look at the unique challenges they face during crucial life transitions.

Breaking down the stigmas that surround mental health and therapy, especially within communities of color, we dive deep into the complex relationship between social media and mental well-being. Emily discusses the dual nature of these platforms, highlighting both the potential harms and the benefits of positive community-building. Learn how to create safe and open therapeutic spaces where clients feel truly seen and heard, regardless of the therapist's background. Through the poignant story of a Black woman finding solace with a white therapist specializing in Emotionally Focused Therapy (EFT), we explore the importance of prioritizing therapeutic fit over demographic similarities.

Supporting loved ones through their mental health struggles can be challenging, but Emily offers practical advice on recognizing deeper issues and seeking the right help. From understanding codependency in relationships to finding affordable therapy options, we cover essential tips for navigating these complex waters. Emily shares valuable resources like sliding scale fees, Open Path Collective, and therapy provided by graduate student interns, ensuring that financial constraints do not become a barrier to receiving the support you need. Whether you're looking to better understand mental health or seeking actionable advice, this episode is packed with insights and support to guide you. Tune in and take a step towards a healthier mind and stronger relationships.

Resources: 
https://openpathcollective.org/
Sliding scale & Reduced fee

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:06

What's up, guys? Welcome to Demo with Mo. I'm your host, monique Simmons. We'll be discussing dating, engaged and married objectives from a young Christian's perspective. Are you guys ready? Let's dive in. Hey, what's up, guys? Welcome to a new episode of Demo with Mo. I am your host, monique Simmons, and today we will be discussing all things mental health. May is Mental Health Awareness Month, and today I have invited a guest to join me. I have Ms Emily Cox here. Emily Cox is a licensed clinical mental health counselor as well as a licensed clinical addiction specialist. Emily is a neurodivergent therapist who loves supporting people move past barriers and find their strengths through creativity and connection. She incorporates expressive art techniques to supplement traditional client-centered talk therapy, helping ease the way. Let's welcome Ms Emily Cox. Emily, I'm so glad to have you join us today. Thank you so much for being here.

Speaker 2: 1:22

Of course, I'm so happy to be here today with you.

Speaker 1: 1:24

Thank you, emily. I usually start off with a fun fact or something interesting so my guests can get to know you a little better. The question I have here for you when you're not working, what do you do in your free time for fun?

Speaker 2: 1:43

Oh, excellent question. Well, the boring answer is I live in the mountains, so I say hiking, which is like when you're in the mountains surrounded by outdoorsy people, like that's not unique. Everyone goes hiking. They're very pretty. The other thing I like to do is like trying new, adventurous eating spots and eating things, love yummy things. So I just uh, I also. This is this is how I know I'm aging in a good way of like. Sometimes there's exciting things in the grocery store. So like they have old bay, old bay flavored goldfish, and like I'm a little bit obsessed with old bay, like the seasoning you put on, like crab and shrimp, like I'll put it on everything. So I was like goldfish, sign me up, I am good. So in my free time we are hiking, we are gardening, we are discovering exciting new treats to eat.

Speaker 1: 2:38

I love all of those so much. Like, I love all of those so much. And it's funny because one of yours is one of my fun things. I love trying new foods. That's one of my hobbies, so I'm with you.

Speaker 2: 2:50

Especially when you find like a new obsession, so like sometimes they're OK, sometimes they're gross, but then you're like, yes, I didn't know this existed, and now it's like part of my world.

Speaker 1: 3:01

Yes, and that's the best part of it. That's the best part of it.

Speaker 2: 3:34

Yes, and that's the best part of it. That's the best part of it.

Speaker 2: 3:37

Okay, so my first question here, which is more about you, because I would love to know a little bit more about you. How did you a lot of people either get into mental health field through like I know when I grew up I want to, that we can be in communities or in families or in social groups where, like, no one is really having mental health struggles, which in some ways can be a beautiful thing. But then when we're the ones having ones like, we kind of get to be pioneers of like, oh, I guess I'm figuring this out, or like, oh, I can't do this on my own anymore. So that was kind of my pathway into it, of like really great experiences with therapy and therapists that really like transformational points of my life and then being like, well, this was really helpful, and like life-changing and developing, like, is this something that I might be interested in doing. So it kind of led me down that path.

Speaker 2: 4:22

I also like tripped and stumbled into the whole child world thing. When I started my graduate school education I was like children are gross, they are sticky, I want nothing to do with them, they should be in schools and have no things. And then I had an internship experience where you didn't get to pick whoever came through the doors. What you got, which is the best way to get experience of like you just figure it out under supervision, under people, but like working with kids in therapy is actually really fun and like I really enjoy doing it and it was really a wonderful experience. So that's kind of how I got drawn to the mental health field and then with like kids and teens specifically, and I'm glad that you brought this up, because I didn't speak about that in your introduction.

Speaker 1: 5:06

So can you tell from our audience, like exactly what you specialize in?

Speaker 2: 5:11

Totally so. I say it kind of like tweens, teens, young adults, so kind of like 27 and under is my like happy spot. So I like them when they're like middle school or kind of not quite like baby age. I like them when they're like middle school or kind of not quite like baby age, but still figuring out who they are. And then the teenagers the spicier the better like, the more miserable we're hitting stuff. I just I really love working with them. I think they're really fun, even when they're like really passionate and stressed and having big feelings, like I like working with those big feelings.

Speaker 2: 5:43

And then the young adult piece is kind of we figured out life a certain extent, or like we've done things a certain way and then all of a sudden like ooh, this was not what I was expecting it being. Or like I'm in a new place and all of my friends aren't texting me back, or I have tried doing this thing for so long and all of a sudden all the things I've always done aren't working anymore. Who am I? What? All of a sudden, all the things I've always done aren't working anymore. Who am I? What do I want? My relationship I've had since high school has ended and now I'm in my mid-20s and need to go on a first date. What is that like? So those are the three main areas that I just love working with of big transitions, big identity pieces and big opportunities for growth.

Speaker 1: 6:22

I love that so much and I'm sure and I'm not sure, I don't know I hope you hear that a lot from people that they love that, because most people stay away from those kinds of teams, from those kinds of kids, especially like the quote unquote trouble kids. They kind of stay away from it. They want to deal with the easier kids, the one that don't cause trouble, the ones that don't make you uncomfortable, the ones that are easier to get along with. That's who you kind of more want to deal with, just because it's easier. So I was very drawn to you when I was reading your website and researching about you and how you were specializing in those tweens and teens.

Speaker 1: 7:16

And I was very drawn to you because I work in ministry and I'm a Sunday school teacher and I teach teenagers and it's something that I have a heart for and most people don't want to deal with teenagers and young people. You really have to have a heart for that because they're not always easy and it's just you've really stood out to me because, again, I feel like it's something that you really have to have a heart for. So the fact that that's something that you really desire and want to do really made me want to talk to you and just to ask you so many questions and to really dive in this conversation with you. So I'm really excited to talk to you, because that's not something that people really want to do, you know. Again, it's something that you really have to have a heart for and desire to do, because that's not, that's not, everybody's ministry per se.

Speaker 1: 8:18

It's not everyone's cup of tea no right of, like you know people are like.

Speaker 2: 8:23

Some people, too, expect children to like have, you know, angel wings and halos and they're just precious pieces of fluff that all they want to do is like, cuddle and make you coloring pages. There are definitely some kids like that and they're delightful. But that is not the like breadth and like encompasses all of the great spectrum of all the different kinds of kids that exist. So I think it can be challenging, like there are definitely some challenges to it, but also like with the littles, little little kids we talk about like behaviors, communication.

Speaker 2: 8:54

So even when they're screaming or tantruming or throwing things or breaking things down, that like they're communicating something there's some need not met through all of the spiciness or the disgruntledness or the frustratedness or the yelling at mom and I hate you and I never want to see you again. Like that's also communicating something. Yeah, it's communicating a lot within the system. It's also communicating a lot about the internal world. So that's something that I'm really drawn to about teens, young adults and like like tweens, of that like okay, I am not a child, but like I still am, like I'm not a little little, I don't have recess anymore, I can't play on the playground. Who am I? What do I do? What's going on here?

Speaker 1: 9:36

Okay. So for someone who is interested in therapy but not sure exactly where to start, can you explain, like some of the different types of therapy talk therapy, emdr, eft, etc. How can they decide which may be a better fit for them?

Speaker 2: 10:01

totally excellent question. I think like it can be really overwhelming. Sometimes it goes into like it's almost a different language. Sometimes, too, like by the time we're seeking therapy, we're already overwhelmed, like we've already been kind of struggling, maybe white knuckling it a little bit. So by the time we're like, ooh, I actually need help with this. Or like I have been trying all these things on my own've been doing the yoga, I've been doing the meditation, I've been doing the walks on my own and like it still can't cut. It ain't cutting it.

Speaker 2: 10:30

So it's more of like by the time we get to the point that we are vulnerable and strong and brave enough to ask for help, the then like where do I go? Like how do I even do? Everyone has all these letters after their name. I don't know the difference. Difference and how do you tell? And sometimes all the profiles look for the same. I had someone the other day mentioned they're like it's just like online dating. But there have been like everyone's faces are looking at me and I just can't. There's hundreds of them and I can't do so.

Speaker 2: 10:57

Acknowledgement that like it is overwhelming. It is an overwhelming process. There are many roads to get to what we need. So it's not like you're taking the wrong path, don't do that. So the kind of framing in terms of like how to get help through things, the different kinds, what's going to be best for us is kind of like thinking of what people kind of specialize in or like advertise that they do. Some of that can be through the different types of therapy. So some people really like doing traditional talk therapy. That means basically what you see in movies, tv, tiktok of like two people sitting in a room or sitting on Zoom, like sitting talking to each other. We're verbalizing, we're talking about our symptoms, we're doing an assessment, we're making a treatment plan, we're talking out what's going on and through weekly meetings every other weekly meetings we're kind of checking in on things are happening. We're working our treatment plan to kind of address whatever we're addressing in the process Through talk therapy.

Speaker 2: 11:56

There can be a lot of interventions underneath that, like big umbrella. So like a really popular one is CBT, cognitive behavioral therapy. That's really frequently used with like depression, anxiety, things like that. We're connecting our thoughts, our behaviors and our emotions and how they all talk to each other and like reframing kind of the process between those three things. Some people really love that.

Speaker 2: 12:21

Some people have a really hard time with CBT because sometimes it can feel like a little stifling or like limiting in some way, or it's really focused on our cognitions. Some people really love the structure around that of like cool, like I can recenter my thoughts, I can reframe how I'm thinking, like I have power in this, I have autonomy in this. Some people are like I have so many thoughts already. Now I have to talk myself out of this. I feel like I'm gaslighting myself into thinking that it's different. So it you know, there's no good or bad, it's just what works for us and what doesn't work for us.

Speaker 2: 12:53

So it kind of is tied into that of like whatever we're seeking support or help for, kind of thinking about what is going to be a helpful path for us. So if we're really struggling with depression symptoms, if we have a hard time getting out of bed, if we're going to work every day, but it feels like kind of gray, kind of we're not getting pleasure out of things that we used to get pleasure out of. The things that we're hitting aren't hitting anymore. That that's kind of like hmm, would CBT be helpful for me? Would talk therapy be helpful for me?

Speaker 2: 13:22

If we have a lot of trauma history, if we have some really scary things happen, that we're struggling with some trauma symptoms currently that are connected to those scary things, something like an EMDR I'm always going to forget it Eye movement, desensitization and reprocessing Got it that time. That is more like a kind of body-based but also like a trauma-specific reprocessing technique that can help identify that EMDR can be helpful for a lot of things. But, like, if we're really struggling with life transitions or relationship stuff with our partner, is the EMDR going to be the best thing to fit that need? Maybe, maybe not kind of up to us, but kind of thinking through what's going to be helpful. Then kind of once we have those pieces I tell people to to think about it of like what would be good questions to ask someone that you're looking to start therapy with?

Speaker 2: 14:14

Therapy is relationally based, so it's like kind of connecting with a relationship. So a lot of times we're like please take me on, please let me have an intake, please let me start with you. But also it's important to like us to feel like strong and validated to ask questions and like feel good from the client end of things. So not just like do you have openings, can we start immediately. But like, what is your theoretical orientation?

Speaker 2: 14:38

What kind of therapy do you specialize in? What kind of stuff do you love supporting people with? Is there anything that you would think of referring out for connecting me to a different therapist? Is there anything that is on your rule out list that you don't work with? A lot of people have active substance use on their rule out list. A lot of people will have current suicidal ideation, current self harm, on their rule out list. Just for you know various reasons for each therapist, but if you're thinking through like the questions of I'm trying to figure out, this person might be a good fit for me. Those are some good places that might be helpful to start.

Speaker 1: 15:15

That's great information. Thank you, that's really great information to think about. Okay, with it may being Mental Health Awareness awareness month, what things regarding our mental health do you think we should be talking about or discussing more like? What things do you think we're not talking about that you think we should be talking about or we're not talking about enough?

Speaker 2: 15:43

that is such a good question. We should have more visibility for mental health month. I mean, my easy go-to is social media. I say that with a lot of like caveats just because it's so present. I don't think it's so present in our lives. It's so present and like younger and younger children's lives, um, and that social media but also like the Internet as a whole and kind of like safety and connection and involvement around both of those things In some ways, like how they can be harmful or disruptive or challenging in some ways, how they can be really helpful and community building and resource building and connection points. Um, I think that's a big one of just like how it interferes.

Speaker 2: 16:31

A thing with social media too is like sometimes I reflect with people of like as an adult with an adult brain, with, like a fully formed frontal lobe, like think of how um, like enthralling and addicting instagram or social media can be of like it's so hard to put it down, it can be so hard to step away. Now, think about that as like a 12 year old or a 16 year old or a thing. So it's not about like demonizing it or being like. It's the worst ever. No one should ever touch it because, like, pandora's box is open, it's in our world, but how do we interact with it, how do we manage it, how do we navigate that? And then how do we teach those tools to others in ways that are going to be helpful to us? Because one piece I find it to be really challenging um with like teens specifically, is that the peer conflict or peer influence piece like it doesn't turn off because it's all online. So it used to be be like you go to school, you know someone says something horrible about your outfit or someone is spreading a rumor about you at school. It is awful and terrible and no fun to like people talking behind your back and people are giggling in the hallway, but you go home and then you do something.

Speaker 2: 17:39

Now, like you can have the Snapchat, the notifications and the messages going constantly everything's going on and the Instagram group chat, so it's harder to have distance from it because it's so present and then can be more challenging to teach the like helpful skills around it because it is so present.

Speaker 2: 17:56

So it's not like the most specifically relevant mental health piece, but I think like how we engage with like social media and internet around like development and mental health challenges. Specifically, here's a specific example of like mental health challenges. So like if people are Googling and looking up on Instagram like depression or like self-harm or suicide, sometimes they're going to get resources, sometimes they're going to get really helpful stuff, sometimes they're going to get pictures of self-harm, which is like not great for people who are having those thoughts. So it's kind of that like double-edged impact of it, of like for all the good it can do and how helpful it can be and how it can be a beautiful like resource and sense of community. Of like how it can also open the doors to other things that, like we as a society just don't have control over and we'll ever have control over. It's all algorithms.

Speaker 1: 18:48

Wow, that's such a great example. If I'm being honest, I wouldn't even have thought about that, but you saying it, it makes so much sense. But just in conversation, I wouldn't even thought to say social media and I don't even know why I wouldn't have thought of that. But I wouldn't even thought to say social media and I don't even know why I wouldn't have thought of that. But I wouldn't even thought to say social media. But it's such a great example, even as adults, even as adults well, same thing.

Speaker 2: 19:17

Like I did the peer stuff with the teens it happens with adults too, though, like I have one of my number one referrals for sources is like people being bridesmaids at weddings, or like drama is going down because friend is getting married. The amount of drama and the amount of but also like conflict and sadness and turmoil that it brings around weddings, around women specifically, is like really overwhelming and can be really upsetting for people. But like same thing with the social media piece of it of like now all these other voices are involved. So like the friend group can get so fractured and so intense and the bride is dealing with all the things the bride is dealing with. That like it creates all of this intensity and discord. That then isn't just like shut off yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1: 20:04

And then, like you said, anything that happens because of social media, it gets bigger because of social media, because now everybody takes everything, and it doesn't matter what it is Friendship relationship, things at school, on your job it now doesn't just stay there, it's now. Somebody goes and posts it on social media. Everybody has an opinion about it. So, yeah, yeah, you're so right, you're so right. You see it being played out every day, literally every day. Okay, there are so many stigmas around therapy, especially in the community of color. Why do you think that is, and do you personally have any clients who are people of color or people who come from a background where therapy would have been seen as a stigma?

Speaker 2: 21:07

from a background where therapy would have been seen as a stigma. That's such a good question. Um, I think the stigmas around mental health, especially specifically with community of color, like have been pretty well founded and that, like a lot of the medical field and the mental health field has like done active harm against communities of color. Um, like the field of social work was founded on white women taking away children from communities of color, like that is a fact not to be debatable, like that's just how it is. So it's totally understandable then that like there is lasting stigma or lasting concern or anxiety when your only interaction or exposure to like a certain field is people coming in and taking children away, people coming in and sending you away to be incarcerated, people coming in and then you're involved in the legal system that you've had zero interaction with. Like that amount of harm and prejudice that has existed and has persisted throughout the history of mental health field, and then all the different levels of mental health field and the overlap between mental health and physical health, like totally understandable of why these things consist and why these things are happening. It's not just from nowhere, just like I'm not sure like actual harm has happened, real lasting. Also, current harm can still happen. So it's not like woohoo, it's 2024 and it's resolved. Like no, it continues, it persists. So understandable of why the stigma exists. Understandable totally why these um, like hesitations and valid concerns are are so in terms of like connecting or like kind of bridging those gaps or allowing like spaces for those conversations to happen, because sometimes the healing isn't just like let's slap a bandaid on it and get over it, but like we need to have the space for that hurt to be. We need to have the space for those conversations to happen and not just like I wasn't there, I didn't do it, so therefore it's none of my responsibility, like no, it's everyone's responsibility to have like continued change and growth happen. So in previous experience with like clients of communities of color, it's kind of opening those conversations and opening that piece of safety, a huge piece in the therapeutic space is just like making a safe space. So it is making a safe space to try things, making a safe space for mistakes to happen, making a safe space for us to have successes, for us to have failures, if it needs to happen. That is for, like, the client primarily. Sometimes it can be for the therapist too, of like if mistakes happen, if harm happens, that there is space for repair. So it's not just like you got your feelings hurt, you can't say anything about it. We're moving on because I'm in charge and I'm saying what's happening Like that's a real uncomfy power dynamic that doesn't seem to be very collaborative at all.

Speaker 2: 24:01

So more of like openness for conversation, openness for feedback and then openness for collaboration and like growth from all sides and that like hey, like this is really uncomfy. Or like we never talked about this in my family because it was a really scary topic. Or I'm the first person in my family to ever do therapy. I don't know what any of this stuff is. You're saying lots of acronyms. I don't know what any of them are. So having the space to have the open conversations and support people through them, rather than just like having more barriers that exist, that can be more challenging.

Speaker 1: 24:39

Thank you, thank you, thank you for the response and the thank you. It's just so much I could say, but thank you. Um, my therapist is a white woman and she has always made me feel safe and I never I never even felt uncomfortable, I never even. It never even felt uncomfortable. It never even crossed my mind that how do I say this Like going into her office. I never once, because she always made me feel so safe. It never crossed my mind that this is a white woman and I'm a Black woman and I needed to feel guarded or I just never felt that way and I'm sure that is a lot of people's experience and people purposefully people of color, purposefully want to see a person of color because of the stigmas and because of things done in the past, and rightfully so. But when I was looking for a therapist, I specifically wanted someone who specialized in EFT, emotionally focused therapy Like that was my main goal because of my own history. I had in the past done talk-centered therapy and that wasn't working for me anymore. I had just kind of hit the ceiling and I needed someone who, with doing research and different things, I knew specifically what I was looking for. So that was my main goal of meeting someone who specialized in EFT, and she was the only one in our area who specialized in EFT. So that was. It wasn't that I didn't want to see someone of color or I did, it was just EFT was my main goal and that was the only thing that I was focused on. So she was the only person in my area who specialized in EFT.

Speaker 1: 26:46

When I found her, it didn't even cross my mind that she was a white woman. It just crossed my mind. She specialized in EFT and this is what I need right now for what I was going through in my life. And I got there and she was amazing. She was amazing.

Speaker 1: 27:00

She always made me feel safe, feel heard, felt seen, and every time in each session she always said I just want you to know, you know, I want you to know, I see you and I hear you and all of those things like. She always made sure to say certain things and reminded me. You know, I know this may not be easy. Sometimes in my session she would slip it in there like. I know this may not be easy because I hear from different people, different clients. You know it may be hard being a person from color Cause. I know she was like. I know I'm a white woman. You know I don't ever want you to feel unsafe here because I know I'm a white woman. Like she would ever try to make it like she didn't know who she was, you know just like ignore that fact, right, like that's what I mean.

Speaker 2: 27:51

Like here, that's what I mean. Like here.

Speaker 1: 27:53

she wasn't trying to pretend like she didn't know who she was, to have this black woman sit across from me and you could see all these black, black people in town and you chose to come see this white woman. I know who I am and I know this may not be easy for you to come here and spill your soul to me. I know who I am and it was just like that never crossed my mind, though. You just made me feel safe. That was it. I just wanted someone who made me feel safe, who made me feel seen, and you've always done that. So thank you. I'm saying all this to say thank you for what you're saying, because in your response, that's what I mean. That's exactly what. What I mean, like you're in your response, that's what's needed to help take the stigma away, to help people feel safe and be open to going to therapy and seeing someone and talking to someone, just to be, to feel safe, to feel seen, to feel heard. That's it.

Speaker 2: 28:58

When you bring up this beautiful point of like safety is key to therapy.

Speaker 2: 29:02

Like if we're not feeling safe with our therapist or in the therapy space, like who wants to be vulnerable and spill our soul or spill our guts, if we're like this person's judging me, they're writing down all my thoughts and they're gonna go type it up and oh no, how's it gonna?

Speaker 2: 29:16

Like that's not gonna be fun for anybody, but like it is a beautiful thing when that safety is achieved and you bring up a good point too of like sometimes we're seeking like avatars of ourselves, of like this person reflects me, or this person connects with me, or this, but like they may be really similar to us, they may be the best fit for us.

Speaker 2: 29:35

They also may not be. So it's important for people to like have options and have choice and not just be like cool, there's two people, I choose a or b and that's all for me. Like that's not a real choice, that's not sufficient for anybody. But then to also have the openness of like I'm really seeking EFT. I want a seasoned EFT person. I really want someone who can guide me in all of the EFT process and, like dig down into my stuff with this, if it happens to be this person who's the best fit for me, who has the skills to create that safe space for me, then, like great, we can have that connection point and we can be able to have the like growth and progress that happens in therapy.

Speaker 1: 30:15

Right, that right there. That right there. If it would have happened to be a Black man or woman time who specializes in EFT, so be it as well. Okay, so my audience is mostly couples and families. If one partner or spouse is struggling with mental illness, for example anxiety or depression, or maybe their child is, how can that other partner or spouse or that parent support them?

Speaker 2: 31:08

Great question, I think, sometimes excellent questions. Sometimes we lash out on the people we feel safest with or sometimes we show our worst versions of ourselves with the people we feel safest with. So sometimes this shows up in couples or it shows up in families of like. The most obvious example is like little ones tantruming like they're angels for dad and they're throwing cups at mom, but it's like they feel super safe with mom. That's not saying that they don't feel safe with dad, but mom's like why am I the target? Like why doesn't dad get cups thrown at them? This isn't fair and little kid brain. They're like mom is going to take care of me, mom is going to pick me up, mom is going to, you know, make sure I'm fed and all the things and have the sleep and have all the basic needs met. Like I can throw cups at mom and mom is still gonna love me. So it can show up in couples of like.

Speaker 2: 32:00

Sometimes they can pick up on things before we're aware of it, so like they can see kind of our sharpest edges before we know that they're pricking others. So that can be a helpful like gauge. In terms of like, would therapy be helpful or like is extra support needed at this time doesn't necessarily have to be therapy. It could be connecting with community, connecting with religious community, connecting with friends, like it could be a myriad of things before we get to therapy. But just being like, hmm, something is up, or like things are harder than they used to be, things are more irritating than they used to be With men and sometimes with kids. Like depression doesn't just show up as sobbing all the time. It shows up as like anger, irritability, we're snappy, we have a way shorter fuse, everything's getting on our nerves all the time. That can be depression, but it just shows up in a different way that isn't just like someone crying in a bathtub so that our partners and our families being really helpful, like resources for us, and then also like guides of what is happening that we might not be able to see. Like you can't see the label when you're in the bottle, right? So like those really important areas of perspective, of being like, hi, you're biting my head off every day. I love you and support you. Also, I don't love having my head being bitten off. Or like, hey, we are really good at this. And now we're like really backsliding with trying to think of an example, like leaving the towels on the floor, of like it's not about the towels, it's about like, are we able to follow through with things? Are we listening? Are we contributing to family stuff? Do we feel like we are being heard in a relationship? So it's that kind of stuff of like that they can be helpful perspective takers and helpful like reflections of what's going on.

Speaker 2: 33:45

They also can be great resources of like okay, we can have that vulnerability and openness to have those really hard conversations of like you're right, something's wrong. I don't know what it is. I feel different. I can't put into words what that different is. Okay, I may need help. I have no idea what I need help with. So, like, those can be really hard conversations that can happen within the relationship or the family unit.

Speaker 2: 34:10

Then the next piece of like action steps is, like they can be helpful guides of like okay, can you look? Here's 30 people. I do not have the brain space to like look through all 30 of these people. Can you go through them with me? Or like I don't really know. I've never done this before, I don't know what I can want, but, like, our partner knows us really well, our family knows us really well, our family knows us really well.

Speaker 2: 34:31

So, knowing of like I don't really know if that person is going to be like great for us. They really want to do like this kind of stuff. Like that person is really directive and they do a lot of therapy homework and they want you to do a lot Like. We seem to be demand avoidant and that might be really challenging for us. Like may not be the best fit. The person may be wonderful and amazing and like the most incredible clinician ever, but they may not be the best fit for our needs.

Speaker 2: 34:56

So, helpful through all along the process and then helpful of like guiding us through the process and then to like some of the best part. I don't do couples anymore, but like the best goal of couple therapy is to like get the couple to bitch about me on the way home. Like that is, you are connecting, you are talking. Even if you're talking about how crazy I am and how I made you do silly stuff and how I'm useless and don't do anything of like if you can complain about me in the car ride home, we're having a conversation together. We are finding points of connection, hooray. So it's that kind of piece of like even when we're in the treatment process. It can be this helpful guidepost.

Speaker 1: 35:37

Those are great points, really great points. Okay, how can people open up Because I see this, I see this a lot and I hear about this a lot how can people open up to their loved ones, whether it's family or friends or maybe even somebody they're dating? How can people open up to their loved ones about mental health without feeling shame around the topic?

Speaker 2: 36:05

I can be so tough. Well, part of opening up to is like the vulnerability piece. It's letting people see our soft white underbelly. It's letting people see our squishy, icky insides. Without this like hard shell around it, the big fear and anxiety around vulnerability can be like what if someone kicks me? Like what if someone rejects me? What if someone hurts me? I open up, I put down all my shields of armor and I'm ooey gooey and then someone steps on me like never putting those shields of armor down again.

Speaker 2: 36:37

So, in terms of like the vulnerability of like something is wrong or I need help, I need help, is the harder one. Like just saying those words takes a huge amount of bravery and like a huge amount of strength to just have the acknowledgement of that is like a huge piece in terms of connecting with like vulnerability around mental health specifically is like not only are we having that anxiety or hesitation with like see all of my gooey parts, see all of my parts that I think are gross or rotten or unacceptable or unlovable. Let me tell you all about them now. Like that can sound like really not fun to a lot of people. And then let me go tell a stranger that I've never met before. Like that can be really not fun and overwhelming, but that, like the piece of it, is the stigma and the shame that comes along with it of like I shouldn't be telling you this. These are inside. They should be kept in the inside thoughts. They shouldn't come outside. I can't let people know that I'm not perfect, because then they won't love me, then they won't accept me, then they won't tolerate me. So all of those are like, not rational thoughts, but they are kind of cognitions or things that we tell ourselves sometimes when we are struggling with that shame piece.

Speaker 2: 37:49

Because the shame has a really hard time coming into the light. That's not where it lives, that's not where it wants to be. So anything we make moving towards the light, the shame is going to be like no, no, stay in the dark, put all those shields of armor back on, put all your things on. You don't need to be ooey-gooey ever. We're going to be just fine as we are. The thing is when we reflect of like but are we just fine? Is this working for us? Is the shell cozy or is the shell combining? And I want a different shell, I want to be in a shell, I want a bigger shell, whatever shell you want to be, so like having the space and the support and the awareness around the vulnerability pieces and then also the like awareness of the shame pieces and how they're responding to be protective. They're trying to do their job right of like I'm trying to keep you safe. Sometimes they go into overdrive and like it's not safety, it's construction.

Speaker 1: 38:42

Oh, I hope. I hope they help some people. I really hope they help some people. Hope that helps some people. Okay, so, when selecting a therapist, what things should people look for to know if someone is a good fit for them, and what things do you consider to be like I hate to even call it this, but what do you? What things do you consider to be red flags, like stay away?

Speaker 2: 39:15

keep, keep looking. So I can feel like I'm talking like vague, in generalities, of like what's going to be the best fit for you, but like it really is true, but like I'll try to think of it like, say, we're really struggling with um, I don't know like anxiety or perfectionism we don't have to put the label perfectionist on it but just like, ah, I feel like everything is falling apart, everything's on fire all the time. My brain is never shuts off and I feel like everything's on fire and I hate it and I don't want to feel this way anymore. Main thing okay, we want to go to therapy. We don't want to feel this way anymore. Great, we may have zero experience.

Speaker 2: 39:49

So when someone's like, hey, what has worked for you, what hasn't worked for you? We don't know, we haven't done it before, how do we know? Um, so you know, some paths we could take are like the cognitive behavioral therapy path, really directive, really kind of um, giving homework and then doing things in response. That might be a great fit for us. We might not be interested in that, so we might be like I kind of just want like talk therapy. I just want to talk to someone. I don't really know if I have anything like strongly identified. I'm not like I want to target this one thing that happened in eighth grade, like I kind of just want to talk out my problems and like have a space where I can do that. That would be someone. Just you know could be a lot of people that could do like talk therapy.

Speaker 2: 40:32

Sometimes it's client-centered. It's also called person-centered, where it's also called rogerian because we like to have 12 terms for the same thing. Um, that it's more of like a conversation collaborative. It's giving a lot of power with the client. So instead of it being like didactic, like teacher style, I'm telling you how to fix your anxiety. It's like talking about anxiety together and talking through like what the strengths are and what the resources are to like get support. So you can put that into. Like Google is one way Google can get really overwhelming. Another way I usually recommend is psychology today. It's a terrible magazine, but the website has a therapist directory that is actually super helpful. You can look through zip code, you can look through type of insurance, you can go through I don't think it's called area of concern basically what you want to feel better about. So anxiety, life transitions, relationship stuff, you can click that as all of your modifiers for your search and it kind of narrows it down. So then you'll get like a whole bunch of profiles and you're like, well, how?

Speaker 2: 41:35

do I go from there. Um, so potential red flags sometimes a lot of the profiles like if you click on it, like they'll click everything, but there's like 20 things that they cover. It's harder to feel like comfortable moving forward with that because you're like, well, if you do everything, like, how can you do my thing? Like you were talking earlier, monique of like we really want EFT. If someone's like I do EFT and I do ERP and I do EMDR and I do art and I do that and I do, it's like, okay, well, what? Uh, it can just get really overwhelming. So that can be one of them is like, if you're specialized in everything, then are you specialized in anything? Of like, okay, this person may be great, they may be wonderful, but like, is it really going to be what I want for my specific need? Also, reading it through of like the profiles, like if it speaks to you, if their kind of written voice feels like it's selective, if it is.

Speaker 2: 42:31

I graduated in 2020 with my master's degree in mental health counseling. I interned at. That might be really helpful. Information doesn't really tell you anything about that human being. And like if you want to spend time with them. So, in terms of like, when I keep saying fit of like, finding the right fit of like. Is the vibe right? It's very vibes based of like. Are the right fit of like. Is the vibe right? It's very vibes based of like. Are the vibes right? Is the energy right? Do we feel good? Are we interested in, like conversing with this person? Because, like it is a relationship, we want to connect with this person. Do we want to get to know them more? Do they seem lovely, but maybe not the person for us? It is about us and what we need in terms of our search. So, like they all could be lovely and wonderful, but like who is going to really help us in the best way that we need help?

Speaker 1: 43:18

Emily, so much great information. I mean so much great information Because, even like when I looked at your website, I could tell, even before talking to you face to face, like just off your website, I want to talk to her. I want to talk to her, I have to meet her Just off your website alone. So I totally understand exactly what you're saying. I totally understand what you're saying. Okay, what do you say to the person who wants to start therapy, or may even be in therapy, but is guarded because they've been raised with the mindset you don't share our business with anyone outside of our home or our family?

Speaker 2: 44:06

gotcha. Do not air the dirty laundry. Don't show your underwear to anybody. Have clean underwear before you leave the house, because those firefighters that come and get you in the car crash can't know you wear underwear.

Speaker 2: 44:17

How dare um excellent point though of like, even if we're in therapy or we're starting it of like still having those like messages get ingrained in us. Right, yeah, so if we are raised in an environment or raised in a family system where it was like don't talk about our stuff, it doesn't leave the house, I don't care who asks, I don't care who says, I don't care what school project it is, it don't leave this room, yes, that message sticks with us. So it's not like woohoo, I turned 18 and all of a sudden, everything I've been told, my whole life, disappears and I'm my own adult now and I get to determine what. I think that would be magical if that happened. But sometimes we have to like pick through all of these messages that we internalized. So if one of those messages is like do not share family unit, like family secrets must stay within the family, some piece of that is like what is that message serving for us? How is it helping or harming us? And sometimes we find great comfort in that of like I don't want people to know I want people to be this is my stuff. They're not open to that.

Speaker 2: 45:19

In some ways it can be constricting. It goes back to that vulnerability piece of like. If someone can see me at my like, spikiest, grossest, unlovable ness, they're going to reject me, they're going to not want me. So the message of like don't tell anyone, you have this. Don't tell anyone that you need help. Don't tell anyone that this happened. It's reinforcing that like keep those barriers up, keep that armor on. In some ways that armor can be helpful for us, that armor is needed at times.

Speaker 2: 45:46

In other ways, are we something that we need to let it down or that we looking for something else? We're looking for growth, we're looking for some exposure of that vulnerability that we feel comfortable with, of kind of testing the waters with that of like. Can we let a piece of it down? Can we let some of it in? And then just reflecting of like how that message supports or harms us and how open we are to engaging with it. So sometimes we can be like yes, this is a harmful message. I don't want to be like this and I don't want to repeat these patterns and I want to be a totally different person, but I also don't want to do anything about it in the recent future. That is a valid place to be like and also that we have acknowledgement of that. That's huge progress just on its own. Like that is something worthy of acknowledgement and praise the steps of doing something about it.

Speaker 1: 46:31

That can be further on down the line, but just if we get to like hmm, I'm not sure about this or that like this is super comforting to me either way that we're having some reflection and sight and awareness around it okay, and I'm sure what you just said is going to free up a lot of people that are listening to this, because hearing that, the fact that you are acknowledging it, even if you haven't made any steps or doing anything yet about it, that's a big deal and I'm sure that's going to free up a lot of people I talk to people sometimes like action steps are overrated of like you don't have to go straight into action mode, like sometimes thinking about it count.

Speaker 2: 47:15

Sometimes, too, there's a thing of like we're as sick as our secrets. I don't fully love that because it's like sometimes we need things on our own, or like we're processing things internally. Like if we let everything. Like if you're making a new plant and it's a little baby seedling and it's just growing its first two leaves, if you leave it out in the sun and don't water it, it's going to shrivel up. So like until we have all of the like resources and structures and skills in place, that like we're a big, beautiful plant and we can be outside and we can handle all the thunderstorms and the winds and the whatever. Like we're ready to do that. But if we're like cool, I'm gonna let everyone know all the things about me. I'm gonna trauma dump all the horrible things that have happened to me my entire life to the grocery clerk at the grocery store. Like open honesty, without any like supports or without any um like mediation is also might not be our helpful answer too.

Speaker 1: 48:10

That's good, that's good right there, that's real good. Okay, so now I want to talk about enmeshment Mm-hmm. Codependency, and not having healthy boundaries Mm-hmm. What can happen to one's mental health in these type of relationships, whether with family or romantic partner? What are also? What are some early signs, especially with you specializing in with teens and young adults? Like can you notice this early?

Speaker 2: 48:59

Good one. Enmeshment and codependency are biggies Sometimes too. Like the codependency dynamics come internally, so they also can be connected to like attachment styles, right. So like, if we think that we ourselves are, like, inherently unlovable but we're always seeking someone to love us, that can be really informative to a codependent dynamic because, like, no one's going to love us as we are expecting because we're inherently unlovable. So like, then, all the things when you're looking from the outside of a codependent dynamic and be like, what are you doing?

Speaker 2: 49:26

or like, or you're hearing about it in a friend group and you're like, girl, chill out. But it's because it's like I have this insatiable drive for this to happen, but it can't ever happen because I'm not worthy of this. No one can accept me of this at this way. This also can happen with enmeshment and that like I found someone who will accept me. Are they fully accepting me in my like most strong, authentic, like self-directed form? Maybe not. Are they accepting me in some way that I feel like I am unknowable and unlovable but they're sticking around anyway. I can't ever let them leave. They can't ever go away, because that means that I'm really unlovable. They can't ever go away Because that means that I'm really unlovable. I can't ever stand on my own, because I'm not meant to stand on my own. I can only stand with this person being next to me or being with me or being inside me. So you can see how those, all those dynamics talk to each other. So the piece of that is like it comes from an internal thing that we're like not going to get the support with externally, but we're always seeking for it through those external supports. So some of the reflection or work we do is like codependency and enmeshment, is like kind of strengthening that internal dynamic and sense of self. Also, getting to those like root key things of like where did we hear that we were unlovable? Where did we learn that we weren't okay? What would it look like for us to be acceptable we don't have to be lovable for us to just be like enough. That might be terrifying and overwhelming and have no answer to it. But, like the process has to happen internally because, like, even if we get all the external validation and we get the most supportive person, they're not going to fill that need because it is inherently unfillable, as it's like determined internally. So there's some of the like dynamic context around. What's going on with that, some warning signs that we can look out for is just kind of like those messagings of like I can only exist if he's around, some of the limerence that happens. So, like, not the love, but the kind of infatuation piece of like my world is over unless he texts me back. He texted me back everything's great and butterflies and rainbows and unicorns. I can't do anything, I can't focus on anything. I wonder what he's doing right now. I need to text him every minute for the next 20 minutes. So like you see how that sets up an impossible thing of like even if he does, does respond, like it still is not giving the stability or the validation that we're seeking in the same way. So kind of those warning signs.

Speaker 2: 51:55

Also, two of like how we are discussing ourselves or how we are viewing ourselves in relationships. So kind of the messaging around that of like we have a really hard time with boundary setting or limit setting because if I set a limit, they might abandon it, they might not want it. I can't ever tell them no because that means that they're going to go away. Telling someone no is a huge part of our relationship. If we say yes all the time, then like oh, that's no fun. And then also like how are we getting our needs met If we're just like, yes, I'll do whatever? Also, the thing is like we might be saying yes and a piece of us might internally be being like resentment, gross, why do I always have to do this? I do all these things for you that no one asked, but how dare you not love the things that I did for you but no one asked for them to do? Of kind of how people are talking about themselves, how people are viewing themselves, how the relationship is being viewed or like played out, how we're engaging in support systems.

Speaker 2: 52:56

A lot of time codependency. There's a lot of isolation, because sometimes when there's reflection of like is this the best thing? Or like I'm not sure about this, we don't understand it, we don't get it, we just can't support our love, versus like hey, everyone can support the love, but the love is like two balances coming together instead of two halves of the whole, because everyone deserves to be a whole person, not just like a half on their own. Warning signs are things to look out for in terms of teens. This happens a lot with teens depending on the spectrum of like full blown codependency.

Speaker 2: 53:29

But like when we are starting out with the relationships, when we're having our first romantic relationships, when we are trying things and we are kind of experimenting with what we want, sometimes the I don't like that, I don't want that, this isn't cool with me. That's really hard to say. That can be hard to recognize internally. That can be hard to recognize internally. That can be hard to verbalize to. Sometimes, too, if we get partners who can not be the greatest dynamic fit with that, so it can kind of prey on that and be like no one loves you, no one likes you, you're not going to get anyone like me. Well, that's feeding into that messaging. And then it's harder to have like a healthy, solid relationship when it's like, well, they're telling me all these things and they love me, so it must be true, so I just need to be better because they love me and they're telling me that I suck at this and I can only improve through this way. So the things to look out for in terms of like support system with that is like how the partners interact, the communication around it, kind of like frequency, intensity of communication.

Speaker 2: 54:30

Sometimes in the codependent dynamics there's a lot of like drama, just because it needs to be like heightened at all times. So there could be a lot of suicidal statements. There could be a lot of self harm. There could be a lot of suicide not suicide, but well, suicidal statements. Self harm, substance use is what I was trying to go for of like lots of things happening.

Speaker 2: 54:48

There can be a lot of like um, infidelity, or even just like emotional kind of connecting, of like I'm not talking to you, I'm putting you on mute, but I'm going to talk to all these other people. Well, I'm not responding to you, but I'm going to be on track team for the next three days and do this stuff, so like that's going to rev up all of those dynamics. So kind of just like looking out for those things and then having the open communication of like that not your boyfriend sucks and need to break up with him immediately. Who has ever responded positively to that kind of messaging or like follow through on that? Tell me about this relationship. What are they into? Oh, what kind of stuff do you like doing? What stuff does he like about you, what do you like about them? Or all that kind of things of just like being kind of connected to the relationship and how it's going and how the teen or person is showing up in the relationship got you, oh wow.

Speaker 2: 55:49

I just learned a lot. I was like was that more than you need to know about codependency? No, there's some people.

Speaker 1: 55:54

I wanted to know all of that. I had no idea. I had no idea of all of that.

Speaker 2: 56:00

It's hard to because, like in the media, people just display, people portray codependency like crazy lady or like single white female or like crazy stuff and it's like that's not a super helpful depiction because it doesn't include all of the context. It also doesn't include like a path for like repair or growth or healing around it. Just because we're super codependent doesn't mean we're gonna be that way for the rest of our lives. Some of us, if we choose to like that's our choice, we're our own. Some of us, if we choose to like that's our choice, we're our own humans. We can do what we want. But like some of us, if it's, it's not like this death sentence of like I'm stuck with this forever. It's just how we engage with dynamics and how we engage with like ourselves as we show up in relationships. That is always going to have area for growth.

Speaker 1: 56:43

Yeah, and I appreciate it, just like any other thing that we deal with the. Yeah, and I appreciate it, just like any other thing that we deal with the to know why. That that's always like to know why, because it's always a reason why we, the, we are the way that we are, like the, like you just say, is because they see themselves is unlovable. That that helped me a lot. Like to know, because if you just see somebody is what they're doing, you won't give them grace. All you see is what they're doing, but why are they doing what they're doing? Why are they acting that way? But to see somebody is they don't see themselves as lovable.

Speaker 1: 57:26

That helps you look at somebody completely different, just like anything else. So thank you for that. I needed that. I appreciate the explanation. It helped me Excellent. My last question before we close out what advice would you offer the person who wants to try therapy and can't afford it or doesn't have insurance? What options do they have for support and to take care of their mental health or their mental well-being, like what our options are out there for them?

Speaker 2: 58:02

right, totally because we live in like a capitalist health scape where it's like healthcare is a hot mess. Everyone has access through insurance or through an employer. So a couple options. First thing is, like you might see on some therapists things like sliding scale or reduced fee. Sometimes I tell people like it's it can always be an option to ask of like hey, you're really good fit for me, do you have any reduced fee? Or sliding scale Kind of mean the similar thing Openings Would you be able to work with a sliding scale? So that is dependent on each therapist but like sometimes they have, most of us have like limited openings on our schedule for like a reduced rate thing. So it could be, you know, kind of dependent on what everyone needs and what everyone is willing to do. But like not through insurance, not like a $200 an hour thing, but like something that is much less of like to get the support needed. So that's the first thing is like can always ask that of any therapist. The other option is Open Path, openpathcom. They offer reduced therapy. I think it's $40 to $70 a session. So I think it's like a one time lifetime subscription fee. They're a nonprofit, so it's not like BetterHelp where you like sign up for it forever and then you're stuck and then they have your credit card, but it's more of like to make sure our website doesn't shut down. They like ask you to do that, but after that, like every session is going to be either $40 to $70 ish, which is pretty affordable in terms of like a therapy. Most of them are licensed. I think they also have like student interns on there. So most of them are they're in their grad program, they're like finishing up the last semesters of their graduate program and need clinical hours. So that is usually around like 10 to 20 dollars. If they have any students, they're under the supervision of usually multiple people. They have like a school supervisor and a clinical supervisor. So like, yes, they're students, but most of the time they're not like fresh, shiny new. Like they have some experience, they're almost done with their grad program. They're just getting hours. That is an excellent option as well. So I think both of those options are available.

Speaker 2: 1:00:05

On OpenPath the thing with the students or the interns you also can ask a lot of group practices or just like any therapist of like hey, I'm not able to afford it at this rate right now. A comfortable rate for me is like $20 a session. Do you know of anyone in the area or anyone that you know that would be able to do that rate or would be able to have offer availability with this limitation? That could be an option and, like most of the time, we'll be able to connect to someone or find someone or give you at least a couple names.

Speaker 2: 1:00:35

Some people, too, have really limited pro bono spots. So, just like totally free therapy. Most of those are going to be through like community resources, like community area. Sometimes they're limited, sometimes each clinician will do them, but it's one of those of like it's always helpful to ask. The worst that can happen is someone says no, but we're generally pretty like kind, helpful people for the most part. Some of us are snots, but that happens with everything of that like hey, I'm really looking for this, this is my limitation, like I'm really. This is my budget for what I can do, what are my options, what can I do? Like they'll try to get you connected to something, but my main things are checking of the reduced fee sliding ski nope, reduced fee sliding scale spots or openpathcom.

Speaker 1: 1:01:20

And is it P-A-T-H open path? Yeah.

Speaker 2: 1:01:24

Okay, o-p-e-n-p-a-t-h. Okay, and they have have, I think, in there. Like some people do virtual and some people have in person. So same thing, like you can search by zip code. It's one of those two. Like part of our field is having access right. So like is a reality of our world that finances are stressful and, uh, money is limiting in a lot of ways, so that like having some access to free and reduced therapy or that like finances not being a major one more barrier to accessing treatment when needed.

Speaker 1: 1:01:56

You're right. You're right and these are great resources. Thank you so much. I will make sure for my audience. I'll make sure the resources that Emily provided in the show notes so you guys will have access to this information, emily, before you leave. How can my audience find you or follow you on social media?

Speaker 2: 1:02:17

Best place to find me is the website. It's Larkspurtherapy L-A-R-K-S-P-U-R therapycom. I'm also on Instagram, larkspur underscore therapy. Right now it's just pictures of flowers and like Taylor Swift quotes. I'll get it together one day but like flowers are really pretty. So if you're looking for like immediate therapeutic guidance, you're just going to find flowers and like really bad Canva templates. But that's where you can find me on Instagram. But the best way to reach me is through the website. You can either shoot me an email through there or like contact me through the page.

Speaker 1: 1:02:53

Emily, thank you so much for today. I really appreciate you. Great information, great resources, great interview. You were amazing. I appreciate you. Thank you for taking the time out to speak to me and speak to my audience. I mean this was just everything. This was everything. Thank you for taking the time out to speak to me and speak to my audience. I mean, this was just everything. This was everything. Thank you, thank you, thank you.

Speaker 2: 1:03:15

Thank you for having me. This has been great chatting with you.

Speaker 1: 1:03:17

Yes, thank you so much. So my audience. Thank you guys for being here with me and Emily today. Remember I love you, but God loves you so much more and I will see you guys next week. Bye everyone. I hope you guys have enjoyed. Follow me on Facebook at Demo with Mo. If you have any questions you would like answered here live on my podcast, email them to me at demowithmoe at gmailcom. That's D-E-M-O-W-I-T-H-M-O at gmailcom.