84 - Caroline Pover - Spotlight on Vaccine Injuries

Episode 84 of the Long Covid Podcast is a chat with Caroline Pover and puts a bit of a spotlight on the issue of vaccine injuries. Although we don't know the full story, the vax injured seem to be close cousins of Long Covid and an issue all too often swept under the carpet.

Caroline tells her story and shares a few things that have helped her.

Caroline Pover website

UKCV Family website

"Get well fast now" protocol

"Safe & Effective" film 

Caroline speaking at the "Better Way" conference

"My Bloodletting story"

For more information about Long Covid Breathing courses & workshops, please check out LongCovidBreathing.com

(music credit - Brock Hewitt, Rule of Life)

Transcript

Jackie Baxter  0:00  
Hello, and welcome to this episode of the long COVID Podcast. I am delighted to welcome my guest today, Caroline Pover, who is an award winning author, entrepreneur and philanthropist. But what brings her here today is the topic of vaccine injury or adverse reaction, which has affected significant numbers of people. But it's a topic which is often brushed under the carpet somewhat. So there's loads to dive into today. A very warm welcome to the podcast.

Caroline Pover  0:30  
Thank you.

Jackie Baxter  0:31  
So it is really cool to have you here. Would you mind maybe just saying a little bit more about yourself and what life was like before you became unwell? 

Caroline Pover  0:41  
oh, I was always on the go. I've always been like that my whole life been really active, really active person, fairly healthy. Actually, at the time, before I got sick, I was actually incredibly healthy. I was running most days, doing yoga most days, working,very active. Probably 14 hours on my feet. I have a food business, and I was very active in it. I didn't sit in front of a computer very often, probably opened up the computer maybe once or twice a month. And yeah, just really very, very active person, I'd probably describe it as just a very active life before I got sick. And then literally overnight, just completely debilitated. And never recovered. 

Jackie Baxter  1:28  
Yeah, this is very interesting. I mean, I guess, you know, one of the obvious things to do is to draw parallels between the vaccine injury and long COVID. And you know, that's probably sensible in a lot of ways. But the story with people with long COVID seems to be a sort of slower progression from initial illness of the virus in whatever form that took, which sort of progressed into long COVID in some form. But with the vaccine injury, it seems to be much more of a sort of flicking of a switch almost? Is that how it was for you?

Caroline Pover  2:05  
Yeah, it Yeah, it was quite violent, actually. So I had the injection at 12.20. And exactly nine hours later, I started shaking, and it just progressed within hours. Then the paramedics were here and I was off in an ambulance to a&e. So it was very quick, it happened very quickly. 

It doesn't always happen that way. Actually, there's some people it does happen a little bit more slowly, a bit like your situation. But for quite a few of us, it does happen just very quickly. It was a bit like a switch just going on actually thinking about it  now. It's a good way to describe it. And I was diagnosed straightaway. In fact, the paramedics as soon as they were here - them in the house before even got to hospital, they said it was, so right from the beginning there was never any question that it was vaccine related.

Jackie Baxter  3:00  
Right. Yes. Because I guess with it being so sort of immediate, it was a lot more obvious. Whereas if it had been something that had maybe come on over days, weeks, months, even, it might be harder to pinpoint, or be believed that that's what it was.

Caroline Pover  3:18  
I think the question is about whether it's believed or not, if something happens, gradually. If it happens, on the day that you're vaccinated, you know, then it would be a reasonable thing to look at. But what's interesting is that if people got sick after having COVID, there's often been questions about well, have you had COVID?

Jackie Baxter  3:38  
Did you get your positive test? 

Caroline Pover  3:40  
Right. Whereas with the vaccine injured community, there has been a huge reluctance to look at whether it was related to the vaccine. Whereas if it had been COVID, then oh okay, let's blame it on that. But if it's the vaccine, then it's not okay to blame it on that. It's been a very odd world to be in, actually.

Jackie Baxter  4:00  
Yeah, I mean, I think again, I have experience with long COVID, obviously don't have experience of the vaccine injury side of it. And what I've noticed from my own experiences, and probably more from hearing from other people's experiences, is this kind of disbelief. Oh, well, you know, were you not like that before, or how can you know that it was COVID? And how can you even know that you had COVID? Because, you know, many people didn't get a positive test, especially early on. But it seems almost like the vaccine injury side of this is that-plus

Caroline Pover  4:36  
it's hard to explain actually, I've been quite lucky. So my GP is supportive. The vast majority of the medical professionals that I've seen, right from the beginning, have been very supportive. My family are, and most of my friends, but I'm in the minority. I think most people who have become very unwell after having the vaccine, they have not had that level of support. And I've had people who have been very unkind as well. It's just that I tend to focus on the people who've been kinder to me. But I've had people cross over the street, because I'm quite public about it and quite vocal about it. I like to think not in an angry way. 

But even so, even if you're just talking about vaccine injury, people are really uncomfortable with it at all. I've had people take steps away from me, when I've said to them, they say, you know, I haven't seen you for a long time. And I say Oh well actually I have been really poorly. And they said Oh is it COVID? That's always the first thing people say. And I said no, and I always have to say the words "I was diagnosed with an adverse reaction", because if you don't say that you're actually diagnosed with it, people will then accuse you of making things up. So I say No, I was diagnosed with an adverse reaction to - in my case, it was AstraZeneca. And I've had people literally take steps away from me, and these are people I've known for years. And you think, Well, you can't catch an adverse reaction. You're not gonna get it just by talking to me about it now, but people are that uncomfortable. 

When I've given speeches, actually, sometimes I have people say, they know people who think they've got long COVID. But they think they've had an adverse reaction to a vaccine. But because it's much easier for people to accept, perhaps, that they have long COVID - I'm not saying they do, or they don't, I'm just saying these are things that are said to me. So people say to me, how do I convince them that actually what they're dealing with is an adverse reaction to the vaccine? And I say to them - why do you need to convince them of whatever? It doesn't matter. 

If they are dealing with the same symptoms, they need help. And if you think you've got long COVID, and you need help, you will probably be treated more kindly than if you say you have an adverse reaction to a vaccine anyway. So I say to people, just let people think that they have long COVID. I don't think either way, I'm just saying that there are people who seem - they want to convince you - people like you, that what you have is not correct, but it doesn't matter. You need help, and you need kindness, and you need sympathy. And you will get more of that if you say you have long COVID. 

I often said I wish I'd had long COVID rather than vaccine injury. Vaccine Injury is a horrible world to live in, horrible. You see, I think, the worst in humanity, the way that people talk about vaccines, about any kind of pharmaceutical harm, people are incredibly unpleasant about it, and they just don't want to know. And the fact is, if we're going to have any kind of pharmaceuticals, then there will always be adverse reactions, and somebody's going to have to deal with them. So if you want to be incredibly pro-vaccine, you also need to have the balls to face up to the fact that some people are harmed by them.

Jackie Baxter  8:05  
It's quite interesting. Again, you know, we're coming at this, the two of us, from to sort of, I don't know, if we're under the same umbrella, but we're, you know, on two different sides of a sort of similar coin anyway, you know, where you're, you're coming at this from the vaccine injured side, and I'm coming at it from having long COVID. And from my experience, and having spoken to other people, that someone could wish that they had long COVID rather than the vaccine injury seems like a really strange thing to say, because from what I've experienced, and more from what I know, other people have experienced, so that's suppose that kind of highlights, you know, how difficult it is to get help for long COVID, for certain people, that actually, for you guys, you have it even worse than we do. 

And then you know, there's a huge amount of gaslighting that goes on with long COVID. And you know, and it's not everybody. Like you, I've had quite supportive doctors; they may not have been particularly helpful, but they've certainly not told me that I'm making it up or you know, or anything like that. But there are lots of people that haven't had that level of support. So the idea that there could be like a group of people that have it even worse than that is kind of a bit eye opening, really, I think.

Caroline Pover  9:15  
I know, I know, it's - I mean, nobody should be treated like that, you know, whether it's long COVID or vaccine injury or anything. And whether we have similar symptoms or not, I think that we do have very similar symptoms, but it shouldn't matter. The fact is, there are some people are really sick, you know, they used to live life, and now they can't, and it almost doesn't matter what brought that about - the fact is that they need support. 

Our communities need medical support. We need emotional support, and in some cases, financial support. And all of us need that and humanity in general should just be a bit kinder to anybody who has any kind of complicated chronic health condition. The ME communities - there's been people who've been battling the way that we are. They've been people who've been battling like this for years and years and years and haven't had any support. So we need to change how we behave towards people who have these kinds of illnesses.

Jackie Baxter  10:19  
Yeah, I completely agree. And I think that is one of my kind of hopes of a silver lining to come out of this is that there will be a greater understanding and more support for all chronic conditions. You know, because yeah, you know, the thought that people have been suffering like this and worse for, you know, decades is just unthinkable, isn't it? You know, it was unthinkable to me, before I got ill. And even now, it's still unthinkable to me. 

But it's an interesting thing, isn't it - I mean, you were saying earlier about, you know, pharmaceuticals. And if we have these things, that we need to be aware of the fact that there is going to be a flipside to it, that some people are going to be adversely affected, you know, that has been with the vaccines, but I'm sure it is also true with, you know, other pharmaceuticals. I mean, you know, we throw the packets away on the paracetamol, don't we, without reading them, but you know, they're full of, you know, one in a million could have such and such a reaction.

Caroline Pover  11:19  
And I think we've got people who, I assume have also affected by long COVID. I know, we definitely do in the vaccine injury community, we have people who, this is not the first time in their lives where they've had to deal with a major health issue. I know that we have people who have a history of ME, but their health is manageable, they lived a very fulfilling life. And they were encouraged to get vaccinated, saying that because they were vulnerable, and because they had me, then they needed to get vaccinated. And then they found that their condition was far, far worse than it ever was before. 

So that's something I think that that, uh, my heart goes out to people like that, who, you know, they spent years struggling with their health anyway, they've managed to get it into a situation where they can manage their health challenges, and then suddenly, it's far, far worse than it ever has been. I can't imagine what it must be like

Jackie Baxter  12:15  
Yeah, I guess it's like climbing out of the hole, and then sort of falling back down it, or falling down a different one, isn't it. I find that you get these kind of ups and downs with long COVID. And that seems to be a thing that's kind of mirrored for you. You know, each time you kind of climb to the top of a peak, and you think maybe this is the time, maybe this is the time and then you know, something will happen. And you know, you'll go back down the roller coaster again. 

And you know, the next time you climbout, it's like, oh, you know, maybe this is the one. And then after that's happened a few times, you just start to lose hope. And that's even worse sometimes to lose that hope. But you know, it's like when you're repeatedly thrown down holes, time after time, what do you expect?

Caroline Pover  12:59  
So that's quite interesting. That whole idea then about, oh, maybe this is the time - so what you mean is, maybe this is the time I'm fixed? How many times did you do that?

Jackie Baxter  13:08  
Oh, I don't know. Lots, lots and lots and lots. And to start with, you have that kind of hope, don't you? Well, I certainly did. It was kind of where I thought, Right, well, this is temporary. This is maybe going to take a whole month to get better. Gosh, that sounds awful. But you know, at least in a month's time, this will be over. So as you start feeling slightly better around about that time, and you think okay, right. Well, that's cool. This is over. And then oh, gosh, that didn't work. Okay. Well, you know, now someone's saying maybe it'll take three months. That sounds terrible. But okay, well, you know, at least I've got an end in sight now. 

And then as the time gets pushed further and further and further back, you know, it's like, keep having that hope. It sort of gets pushed down a little bit as time goes on. And it's only really been in the last maybe six months where I've started to get it back. And I think when you lose that hope, it can be quite a dark place to go into. But you know, it's understandable, isn't it?

Caroline Pover  14:11  
Yeah, yeah, that's really interesting, because I wouldn't describe myself as having had hope at all. This is quite interesting. So I don't believe in false hope. And while I've been quite public about everything, I've not been the kind of person who said, we're going to get better, this is going to happen, this is going to happen, because it's just not there. 

And the end of my book, I wrote a section about acceptance. I think acceptance is a huge part of learning to live with this. And I think that there's been a lot of kind of spiritual, philosophical conversations I've had to have with myself and with other people too, about accepting that I may not get better, and this may be it and how do I live with that? How do I reconcile what was an incredibly active, busy productive life with who I am now. And who was that person then who made the most out of every moment and you know, who is this person now who can't make the most out of it? Well, I will still try to make the most of the moments, but I don't have those moments. Now, I don't have very many of them. So it's a very different kind of life that I'm looking at. 

And, you know, I've had conversations with people who were important to me. And that, to me, didn't feel like something I was afraid of. It was something that was part of accepting what had happened. It made me feel more peaceful, having those kinds of conversations and facing those kinds of things. Having said that, I'm 51. And I've lived quite a wild and crazy life. And I've always, always said, I can go at any time, because I've lived an incredibly full life, I've done everything I've ever wanted to do. And generally, I think I've been a good person, I think, you know, when you look back on your time on the planet, then you think, you know, have I done more good than bad, and nobody's perfect, of course. But I think on the whole, I can look back and think, Oh, actually, that was quite a good life. I'm happy about that. 

So I've had to have those kinds of conversations and those thoughts, and that is easier to do when you're 51. That's been a big part of how I've coped with a lot of this is there's a lot of acceptance going on. So I haven't gone through those periods where I've thought, Oh, I'm going to be better, I'm going to be this, I've just kind of accepted. This is the way everything is. And I found everything much, much easier when I've stopped fighting. Much easier.

Jackie Baxter  16:50  
I think the word acceptance, it's not a word that I like - it was something that I railed against really, really hard to start with. It's something that people say to you, isn't it, you know, you've got to find acceptance with your situation or whatever. And I was just like, No, I will not accept that this is me for good. You know, I just cannot accept that.

Caroline Pover  17:13  
It's not about accepting good. It's about accepting today. So this is what it is today. I used to get a lot of emails from people saying, you know, I worry about this, I'm afraid of this, I'm you know, those kinds of emotions, and that they're all to do with thinking about things in a year's time, in two years time, in three years time, what their life's gonna be like. I was like, no, just bring it back to just right now. That's all.

Jackie Baxter  17:38  
Yeah, yeah, exactly. It was when I kind of stopped fighting against it and realized that acceptance didn't have to mean that this was forever. But it did mean that this is today. So today, if I don't wake up feeling that great, then no, I'm not gonna go for a run. Because that would be stupid. Today, I'm having a rest day. And that is okay. And I'm much more okay with that now. Yeah, it was certainly something that at the start, I was just like, nope, nope, nope, nope, we're not going there. And then it was kind of over time where I kind of realized that, yeah, you know, if you accept things for the moment, then actually you stop fighting against things. 

And then actually, that helps. You're not constantly - I mean, you get the peaks and the troughs anyway, but emotionally, maybe not quite so much. And because, you know, peaks and troughs emotionally is exhausting, on top of everything else, isn't it? 

I'd be interested in talking about kind of the symptoms. I mean, you've have your own experiences of this, but you are, in contact with a lot of others, as well through the community. And there's, I think, a fair amount of crossover in symptoms between long COVID and the vaccine injured, but are there certain symptoms that tend to be more one side than the other? What's the kind of things to look out for there?

Caroline Pover  19:03  
We did a survey of our group, UK CV family to to look at symptoms, I wanted to make sure that we covered everything. The number of symptoms were ridiculous, and these people don't just have one or two of these symptoms. They have 20 30 40 up to 100. 

And these are the categories that they're under: neurological symptoms. We have skin and hair symptoms, there are vision and eye related symptoms, ear, nose and throat, cardiovascular, gastrointestinal, sensory, lots of numbness and pins and needles and odd sensations, muscular spasms and things, hormonal, gynecological, there's a lot of menstrual problems. And then there's immune system issues nervous system, bladder issues, energy levels, that's the one everybody knows about. Lots of blood and circulation problems, breathing difficulties, sleep issues, and psychological issues. And under each of those categories, there's probably about 15-20 different symptoms under each one at least.

Jackie Baxter  20:23  
So that is very interesting, because I think everything you've just mentioned, is also a long COVID symptom. And, as you say, people have, you know, lots of different symptoms, and they can move around and change and fluctuate. So that seems to be the same as well.

Caroline Pover  20:44  
Yeah, I think my understanding is that there's some very similar issues going on there that are bringing about very similar symptoms.

Jackie Baxter  20:54  
Yeah, I mean, it's, I keep saying it's really interesting. I mean, it is interesting, but it's also like, I wish it wasn't happening. You know, I don't know if you find the same thing. But I do quite a lot of where I'll start looking into a certain symptom or a certain kind of avenue. And I'll just kind of swept up in this. Wow, that's fascinating. That's amazing. That can happen. And then I take a step back, and I'm just like, Yeah, that's literally happening to be and it really sucks. But it can be very interesting.

Caroline Pover  21:24  
I did used to in the early days, I think, but once I started, I think, being so public about it, I felt really overwhelmed with people sending information. And still now I think most days I get an email or something from somebody who says, Have you seen this or you know, sends one article or another. And some of the articles are quite frightening, actually, we get these things all the time in the vaccine injury community and you think, why are you sending this to people like us, you don't send things to cancer patients and say, You're going to die, do you? So it I find that all of that a little bit odd. 

But I don't delve too much into it. Because I think there's so many things that are unknown. And I'm not entirely sure how much time sitting in front of a computer is helpful for our health. And I'm a bit more I think solution focused. So my pattern, I suppose has been I would look at one symptom, and throw everything I could at that. So for example, at one point I had, this is in quite in the early months, actually an ear and jaw issue. So I just did everything I could to try and alleviate that through all sorts of natural means. And would throw as much as I could at that, and then it cleared up. Okay, well, what's the next symptom that I want to deal with. 

And I post these on my social media, I make these kinds of charts. And I like a one page A4 sheet that I put on the fridge that's all nutrition focused. Or recently, I've learned about essential oils. So I'll put specific essential oils in there. I've just done a new chart just a couple of days ago, actually, that's related to copper deficiency and the lymphatic system. So two different things I've got going on. So I'm looking at those. So I'm going to put all my energy into that. So I tend to, and I have done this from the beginning, I think I've tend to be very much solution focused. So I don't need to necessarily understand lots of things behind why this damage has happened. But I do want to understand what can help me feel better. And I'm happy to try all sorts of different things. There's a lot of trial and error going on.

Jackie Baxter  23:47  
I spoke with someone recently who put into words, something that I've been doing, but just didn't have the words for it. And she described it as making recovery your project. And I was like, Oh, that's the word. That's the word that I have been looking for. And it's exactly it, isn't it? It's like, right, breathlessness. What can I do about that? You know, so then you try things, don't you? And you think right, okay, now that started to clear up, right? What's next, and you just go through things and then you know, things will flare up and you'll have to kind of you know, bat them down again, like smoldering fires, but this idea of working your way through things, and yeah, making recovery your project

Caroline Pover  24:25  
and not being overwhelmed, people get really overwhelmed because there are so many symptoms to deal with, then don't try to deal with all of them in one go. Just take one thing, and don't spend your entire time thinking about it either. Just, Okay, I'm gonna put a little bit of energy towards that. And just focus on one thing at a time.

Jackie Baxter  24:46  
Yeah, definitely. And something that I've had to learn, because my personality has always been, I need to do everything all at the same time, right now. And if it doesn't work first time, then it's a complete failure. And that's terrible. And that has always kind of been my thing. That's how I've always been. And it's kind of been like with this, it's like, Oh, okay, I've had to completely try to switch that off. And, you know, make this a longer game and having to, you know, really try to be kind to myself when things don't work straightaway, or, you know, maybe they do start working, but then you have a flare up of something else. 

And you know, that is okay. And that is just the way things are and fighting against it, as we were saying earlier, actually doesn't help. But it's had to be quite a big kind of switch for me, which is probably a good thing. Because, you know, living in that kind of - everything has to happen right now, straight away - kind of thing is probably not that healthy. But it was a very big change for me, certainly,

Caroline Pover  25:50  
I think there's a lot of us, we talk about this a lot in the vaccine injured community. Actually, there's a lot of people who were overachievers before. I always describe myself as - I used to be a very annoying overachiever. And there's lots of us who are like that - we talk about this a lot, and people who have had incredibly active lives beforehand. And we've all had to completely change the way that we navigate life with this. And maybe we're the people who are more active in support groups, I don't know, or is it that there's a certain personality type that long COVID and the adverse reactions are affecting?

Jackie Baxter  26:34  
Yeah, I would say it does seem to be that way. Again, you know, there's there's no actual data on that. But you know, anecdotally, that does seem to be a bit of a pattern.

Caroline Pover  26:45  
And with Chinese medicine, then, my understanding is that people who have those kinds of personalities and very active people would be - I think it's to do with kidney energy. I don't know a lot about it. But it might be something maybe some of your listeners might know more about and might be interested in looking at it, but it's to do with certain personalities, we're depleting kidney energy. And that's what long COVID and adverse reactions seem to have affected people who have weak kidney energy. 

And I know, definitely one of my first symptoms that I dealt with, I had quite severe problems with my kidneys very early on, and kidney issues, that is something that keeps coming up in conversations. And this is, you know, it depends what kind of health care system you're interested in, or the whatever works for you. But if people want to look into something into Chinese medicine then I am told, we should be looking at the kidney energy, because that's the energy that people like you and I, that's the energy that we use a lot of

Jackie Baxter  27:52  
that is very interesting. So I would love to know, maybe I don't know, if you've got a top three or something, the things that you've found that have helped?

Caroline Pover  28:03  
The things that that work, for me, are quite controversial. And I get a bit of stick online for the things that I do. But without a doubt these have been lifesavers for me. So the number one thing for me has been - let's call it therapeutic phlebotomy. So I accidentally discovered this five months after being vaccinated. And my GP wanted to have a whole load of tests done to get to the bottom of what might be going on. So I had rather a lot of blood taken. And after having those blood tests taken, I felt like a different person. I felt like I was lighter, brighter, cleaner. It was literally like I had been cleaned out. 

And I thought it was just a coincidence, I didn't really take it very seriously, I made some joke at the time about, you know, medieval bloodletting or something. And then I had a little bit of time where I was functioning. And then I started deteriorating again quite badly. And the only thing I could think of trying was, I'll see if I can get some blood taken out and just see if it makes any difference. And I ended up hiring somebody to come to the house - a private phlebotomist, and she took a pint of blood out of me. And I came straight back to life again, I went from being like a zombie on the sofa. And literally, as soon as that blood started coming out, I was able to talk normally. I've written a very long blog post all about, you can put the link there and I tried to answer everybody's questions about it. 

And then I gave a speech last year, in September and at some point, somebody said, Is there anything that's helping you and I said, I'll admit that I have blood taken out and that gives me quality of life. And somebody can contacted me afterwards and said, I'm an acupuncturist and one of the things I do is an ancient form of Chinese bloodletting - would you, let me do this for you. And let's see if this helps. So I started going to her. And it's a very specific form of ancient acupuncture. 

And the second thing, this is a very recent discovery. So I started a trial protocol, at the end of January. And again, it was after a speech I gave a lady came up to me after the speech, and she gave me a copy of her book, and she said, I completely reset my own health 10 years ago, I nearly died, reset my health. I've studied. She's not a medical person, but she studied medicine in order to understand exactly what happened to her body. And she wrote a book, which it's not even on Amazon, it's available privately. And she gave me a copy of it. And it took me months to even get around to picking it up and to read it. And it absolutely spoke to me, the whole thing spoke to me, and it's all about the kidneys, and the lymphatic system. 

And around that time, I'd worked out that in between the bloodletting sessions, you know, we build up just cellular waste, don't we, our body, you know, whatever we're doing - me talking to you right now, you know, my body will be using up energy and there's waste products. And I realized that what was happening in my body was in between the bloodletting, those waste products were building up. And somehow my body had lost the ability to get rid of that waste itself. And at the same time, I picked up this book. So it all felt a bit the timing was quite interesting. And this book was talking about the lymphatic system. And I didn't even know what lymphatic system was to be quite honest with you. 

Then as I read her book, I thought, Oh, my goodness, this is what's happening in my body. I'm not getting rid of these waste products. So I started a trial protocol with her. So she's been experimenting on me for a couple of months, which I'm quite happy with. And I've been on a high water content, fruit and vegetable diet, because I'm always into food being medicine through this whole thing. I've experimented with all sorts of food-based protocols, not pharmaceutical-based protocols. So I did a high water content, fruit and vegetable diet and responded unbelievably well. 

So the bloodletting had me functioning at 30%. And then this diet got me to on average, it was 45%. So I'm currently at 45%, but it would have been higher, except this was the only one time in the last two years where I did have hope. And I thought, Oh, my goodness, I'm fixed. I felt that amazing on this protocol. And I did 11 days of it, felt incredible, went on a hike. Like and I hadn't even walked anywhere in two years, and went on a hike and thought I'm fine. Oh, my goodness, it was right like it was back in the early days, it was awful. 

But this whole process has made me look at Copper. And I've just recently, just Friday got the test results. I've come back as having copper deficiency. So I'm now going on a high copper diet. So I think those two things have been the things that have been game changers. For me, nothing else has come close. So bloodletting and high copper diet have been game changers. And I hope that the high copper diet, I've just started a very pure copper powder. So I'm hoping that that's going to be a bit of a game changer too, and maybe take it to a different level altogether. And this trial, if any of your people are interested, then they're welcome to get in touch that she's doing another trial on people. She's specifically looking for people with long COVID or vaccine injured, who want to go on this trial, too.

Jackie Baxter  34:07  
I can put any details if you want me to enter the show notes. Yeah, that does sound really, really interesting. I think certainly, what I've noticed over the last well, three years now, is that when I started off - I've said this before, I'd had doctors on this kind of pedestal that, you know, they didn't deserve, you know, not through any fault of their own. Because I've never had any reason not to, you know, every time I got sick, which was hardly ever I went to the doctor, they gave me a pill, I got better. Therefore doctors are like the best thing ever. They're amazing. They're completely infallible. And then suddenly, you get something like this, where they don't know what to do. 

And it's interesting over the last three years noticing that kind of progression from doctors can fix everything to actually where I am now, where actually I'm thinking well, all the things that have helped me have been all the things that I would have totally dismissed out of hand three years ago, you know, things like breathing and things like yoga nidra, things like cold water are all the things that I've found really useful. But you know, three years ago, I'd have been like, Bleughhh that sounds like complete rubbish, you know, give me a pill. So it's, it's interesting how we've kind of had to search out different things. I mean, the things you've just mentioned, you know, the things that, you know, again, three years ago, I'd be like, that sounds completely crazy. Whereas now it's like, well, if it works for you, that's awesome.

Caroline Pover  35:26  
I totally agree. And there are people who, because I talk about this online, there are people who go on my social media, specifically to talk about how mentally ill I am, because I'm doing these kinds of treatments. But my GP is fully aware, and she's interested, and I always tell her about the latest thing that I've just found out. And if they don't have anything for us, then why not go and look at all of these different things. And, you know, this is how we, our bodies are more in tune for those kinds of treatments than they are with pharmaceutical products. 

I think my GP, she did once prescribe me some iron tablets. And I had a look at those, and the ingredients in there. And there was talc in them. And I looked into why would there be talc in iron tablets? And it was because talc is used to stop the machines from clogging up. Where is the health benefit in having talc in there, it's not - it's for making machines run, so that a company will make more money - it has absolutely no health benefit whatsoever. So our bodies are made for doing all of these other things rather than the pharmaceutical products. 

And of course, there's going to be times when the pharmaceutical products are going to be really helpful. But should they be the go to? Maybe this is a good opportunity to change the way that we were looking at - a lot of people how they were looking at their health anyway. I've never thought that doctors have the answers for everything. I've always thought that doctors just happened to study something different at university than I did. And they're not going to make a decision for me, there'll be people I'll go to, to have a conversation with so that I can look at that as an option. 

And I do the same thing now - I have a conversation with my GP now. Because I'll be interested in what the pharmaceutical industry would suggest, as a way of dealing with something. And I'll look at it and I'll consider it the same way I'll look at anything else. But for this particular thing, they don't have anything, you know, what they had caused the problem. So they don't have anything to solve the problem at the moment. So of course we're going to be looking at other things.

Jackie Baxter  37:43  
Yes, exactly. Yeah. But yeah, I mean, obviously, so long as you're doing it in a safe way,

Caroline Pover  37:48  
but what I mean, even that now, you know, what's going to be the safe way? How do we know what's going to be safe, who you know, just because one body says Okay, this is the safe way to do it. And then another body says that it doesn't and that body might be funded by somebody and that body, it's all very, very confusing, very messy. And, you know, it's our bodies, and we get to make those decisions about what we do with it. And whether we think, you know, for some people what I'm doing, they don't think that's safe at all. Whereas for other people, they think you should go further and do more of it. Everybody's different. And we all need to have the choice really to be able to explore whatever healthcare options work for us. Yeah,

Jackie Baxter  38:33  
Yeah, no, that's that's a good point. Yeah

Caroline Pover  38:35  
it's not you know, I don't tell anyone else to go and do it. I'm not encouraging anybody else or pressuring anyone or anything, but, you know, what I do with my body is up to me, isn't it?

Jackie Baxter  38:45  
Yeah, yeah, definitely. So I guess, do you have any sort of advice to people who are early on in their journey? Not necessarily anything, you know, medical, just, you know, what might you say to someone who's just starting down this journey?

Caroline Pover  39:02  
Oh find a support group. Yeah, I think the people that I've met in UKCV family have been incredible. Just amazing, so kind and helpful. Just don't suffer alone at all. I thought I was the only person in the world in the first few weeks and that feeling was horrible. So I'd always say to people reach out, find your support group. Try not to get too tied up in trying to make people understand what you're dealing with because that can really take an awful lot of energy, I think from you, and when you realize that- I'm sure in the long COVID community you know, there are people around you who don't believe you and aren't interested in hearing about it, and they think what, two and a half years and three years in you're still ill, and they, you know, they're really impatient. Don't waste your time with people like that. It's just going to be really draining you focus on you. 

And be really kind to yourself really gentle, you know, that voice that we've all got in our heads that's pushing us to do more and to work harder and to go out. And, you know, maybe we used to be party animals and you know, that life that we lived before. Try not to give yourself too much of a hard time for not being able to do that right now. None of us know what the future holds. This isn't the first time for me to be sick in my life. I was very sick when I was 19. And I look at sometimes the people who are about 19 and the young people who are dealing with this, and they're so scared and they think their life is over. 

But none of us know what's around the corner. None of us know - life might go in a different direction, something different might happen. Different people might come into it, there might be a whole different world just waiting for you. And to just try to be a bit kinder with yourself and a bit more open to what might be around the corner. You never know, you really don't.

Jackie Baxter  41:11  
Yeah, yeah, definitely. Well, thank you so much for joining me today. It's been such a pleasure speaking with you. And yeah, I'll make sure I pop a link to your book in the show notes as well. We haven't really spoken about it, but for anyone interested in getting a copy. So yeah, thank you for all that you're doing and all the best with hopefully feeling better.

Caroline Pover  41:33  
Thank you. You too.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai