133 - Anna Davidson - Long Covid Recovery

Episode 133 of the Long Covid Podcast is a chat with A K Davidson, author & poet, who has now recovered from Long Covid. We chat through her experience, how writing because so important as well as helping with recovery, although not always in the way she expected!

As always - recovery stories are one person's experience! They can be useful for ideas, but more than anything, giving hope of recovery for anyone who is struggling.

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(music - Brock Hewitt, Rule of Life)

Transcript

Jackie Baxter  
Hello, and welcome to this episode of the long COVID Podcast. I am delighted to be joined today by Anna Davidson, who is a poet. And we're going to be talking about recovery and the role of writing and poetry and creativity in recovery. And I'm sure loads of other things, because it would not be an episode with me if it didn't include a tangent. So a very warm welcome to the podcast today.

A K Davidson  
Thank you, it's so lovely to be here. I really love your podcast, and I listened to it a lot when I was ill myself. So feels really special, actually, to be here and be recovered and be talking to you at all. That all feels wonderful.

Jackie Baxter  
I'm so delighted to have you here. And yeah, I guess as we're gonna kind of dive into the other side of the coin, coming out the end, that recovery. I mean, it's an amazing thing. But it's a very strange thing, I think as well. So maybe to start with, would you mind just saying a little bit about yourself? What you do, and maybe what life was like, kind of before you got sick?

A K Davidson  
Yeah, sure. So I'm a writer and editor, a mum, I had a very, very busy life before COVID, like a lot of people, I think, who have long COVID. I was working, basically full time working for a brilliant publishing house. And also looking after my three kids. So that was all busy in and of itself. And I had a massive commute on top of that. So I was commuting for over three and a half hours a day. So it was full on, didn't see as much of my children as I wanted to. 

So actually, before I got COVID, in the beginning of 2020, I'd already decided to go freelance, and as a editor and writer and try to get my life back into a bit more balance. And also give myself a little bit more time for writing because that was always something I had to do on the side outside my day job. So I was already kind of conscious before I got COVID that I needed just to kind of, you know, get life back into a better sort of work life balance, if you like. And then yeah. And then everything changed. Yes. 

Jackie Baxter  
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I can relate to some of what you're saying. And you know, it's not everybody, but a lot of people were in this sort of similar position where looking back, there was a lot going on. So you'd kind of sort of realized that maybe something needed to change, or that you were about to make some changes. And then it all kind of went a bit wrong. 

So perhaps you could sort of briefly just talk through sort of initial illness and just what your sort of main symptoms were, without kind of diving too much into the sort of traumatic detail of it, maybe?

A K Davidson  
It's quite interesting, actually, because I had acute COVID three times. So I had long COVID three times, which is quite a weird thing to say, in a way. So I did recover. And then I got COVID again, which I think has happened to other people as well. In fact, in 2020, I had COVID, in sort of around April, I think I didn't realize I had it at the time. But looking back, I think that must have been COVID because it was so mild, it wasn't a big deal at all. 

And then I just intermittently throughout 2020, I would have these odd episodes of kind of breathlessness. You know, even just sitting watching TV, you know, something funny or whatever, I would find myself breathless, which was really weird. And I didn't know what that was. And it didn't impact life too much, because we were all quite sedentary in 2020, because of the lock downs. It wasn't like they were, you know, things that I couldn't do, then. 

But then I did get COVID for a second time, at the end of 2021. I had the same experience of fully recovering, and about six weeks fully recovered. And then I woke up one morning, sort of feeling like I was drowning, I remember it really vividly really weird experience. And that was sort of the beginning of long COVID. And that took me about a year to get over. 

And then I got COVID again December 22 or 3, I can't, I can't I am going to be really bad with dates and things because I think it's all a bit of a blur in my mind. But then I got COVID again, and then had to sort of work through it. It is a bit of a game of snakes and ladders isn't it sometimes it feels like you've - I remember as a child, we had a board where I think there was a very big snake on 99, on square 99, just before 100. And it took me right back down to number two on the board. 

And that's what that felt like on my third time getting acute COVID. Here we go again. So it's been a long period between 2020 and the end of 2023. But I was not ill for all of that time. In 2020 and the start of 2021. I was kind of working pretty normally and stuff so it's a kind of patchy experience. 

Jackie Baxter  
It's yeah, and that's really interesting about the snakes and ladders analogy that you just made, because I call it Whack a Mole. You know, sort of you have a symptom and you sort of start to find something that helps that and you think, okay, and then hey, something else will come up, you know, and something else and something else. And it feels like you're, you know, constantly Yeah, whack a mole or firefighting. 

But the snakes and ladders one I really like, because it's like, you know, you start feeling like you're making progress. And then oh, no, you're not, you're back down to the bottom. And certainly a couple of people have said, and actually, I had an experience a bit like this as well, where you don't realize at the time, but you've actually are almost there. And then you hit the snake on 99. And you feel like you're back down to zero. 

And actually, in hindsight, that was like the final crash, you know, and after that, it really was a much more linear, sort of onwards and upwards, kind of towards recovery. But yeah, it's really interesting. And I think all these analogies, they're really helpful because they allow people to sort of visualize it, be able to understand it in a way that they maybe aren't, because they haven't experienced it, I guess. 

A K Davidson  
Yeah, I think images are really, really helpful. Yeah. So me, I had CFS back in the year 2000. So that was the other very strange thing in 2020, where I'd completely forgotten that I'd had chronic fatigue syndrome, because, you know, it had been a year of my life had glandular fever, then chronic fatigue syndrome, took a year to get back to full strength. And that was a really tough year, you know, but I've been so well, since then, until COVID. 

I was always so well, I'd actually completely forgotten but my kind of body physically, I sort of remembered with COVID. It was it was like my body was almost sort of saying, oh, yeah, we recognize this. It's not that it wasn't the same as CFS, but they were it was kind of, you know, obviously had sort of commonalities, I suppose. And that was a interesting experience. 

But also, it was positive for me that I had so completely forgotten that I'd ever had CFS. I thought Fine, I will get to the point with long COVID where, although this seemed unthinkable at the moment, I will get to the point where I forget that I ever had it. And that was comforting for me.

Jackie Baxter  
Yeah, I think that's such a good point. Because, you know, the kind of the belief in recovery, the hope, the hope and belief, you know, you've gotta hope. But you know, that that actual genuine belief. And when you're feeling absolutely dreadful, which you are for, you know, so much of the time when you're not well, it is very hard to have that belief that you're going to get there. Because you're just like, well, I just feel so awful. I can't imagine not feeling this awful. 

So I suppose in some ways, that kind of prior experience that you'd had, I suppose it was probably a bit of a double edged sword? But certainly knowing that you'd come out of it, and maybe some of the things that had helped you the first time around. You knew well, if I did it once, then I can do it again. Kind of thing, I suppose. 

A K Davidson  
Yeah, that's right, exactly. And it was a very different experience. And also, there were no smartphones or anything like that, there wasn't like kind of social media were any of that then it was a, it was a totally different experience. But I did know that I'd come out of it. And I also know that funnily enough, I don't know how you experienced this. But I found to a certain extent that when I've been well, I've also kind of wanted to forget that I've ever been ill. It's kind of helpful to just flip your brain into a different kind of space. 

And actually, one of the reasons I decided to kind of, you know, publish the poetry and share the poetry was because that feeling, although it's helpful for me to forget, it is a little bit pulling the ladder up after you, isn't it? And I thought, you know, actually, this is such a tough thing to go through. I do want to sort of be one of those people who talks about the fact that now I'm better now. You know, it's not forever, keep the hope, keep going. Because it's, it's important to know that. 

And I think it's natural that when people get better, they don't actually want to dwell on having been ill, they don't want to talk about it. They want to get on with living their lives. And I do feel that to a certain extent. But I also know that when I was ill, hearing people talking about having been ill, but then having recovered was massive in terms of keeping the hope and keeping going. 

You know, it's just a slog, isn't it? You've just got to get up every day as best you can and keep going. So it's really really, for me, it really helped to know that actually, loads of people, well everybody. I don't about everybody, but people do get better. It's just you don't hear as much about the people who've got better. You hear a lot more about the people who are still in the recovery stage. 

Jackie Baxter  
Yeah, for sure. Yeah, I think for me, there's definitely an element of I don't want to be dwelling on every single second of my recovery. Because, you know, there were some absolutely awful, I mean, there were many awful days, and there were some days that were, you know, beyond awful within that. And I think, you know, dwelling on it, as you say, you know, living in that experience that actually you've left behind, it's not healthy. You know. So actually, in some ways moving on, and, as you say, living your life, because you are able to do that, is important. 

But I think the flip side of that, for me is, as you say, absolutely sharing that, that you have recovered, because when you haven't, it's helpful to hear that there are people who are recovering. 

But I think the other bit of it for me is remembering, you know, the kind of lessons that I learned through that, you know, so I remember someone saying, pacing is a skill for life. And I'm thinking, you know, what, in some ways, it sort of is, you know. And, you know, you don't have to dramatically pace in life, you know, when you're not unwell. But, you know, just being mindful of the balance in life. And some of that I think, kind of is helpful. 

And some of those tools that I learned while I was ill, are actually tools that are really helpful now, for me, in life, you know, I mean breathing is obviously the ones that I tend to go to most, but you know, that there are others as well. And certainly, that's how I feel it's, you know, it's taking those lessons and using them in my life, rather than dwelling too much in the past, I suppose. Yeah.

A K Davidson  
You know, that it's such a hard thing to go through. And I don't think it's particularly something that you know, you need or want to go through, but there are, of course, amazing lessons, you know, that you can draw from it, you know, for the rest of your life really. 

I mean, I know, for me that, you know, I said before I had a very busy job, I didn't really have time to write as much as I wanted to. And, you know, I've had lots of time to write since, you know, over the last three years, which has been a double edged sword. And obviously, you know, a lot of writing you can do in your head, or, you know, you do in your head, so it's a, it's a great thing, when you're ill even when you've got quite a short amount of energy, there's still stuff you can do. 

So, sometimes I think to myself, Oh, gosh, be careful what you wish for, you know, because I wished for more time to do writing, and, and the universe gave it to me, you know. It gave me lots and lots of time at home, unable to work, and unable to do much else, really. 

So, you know, you could choose to think it's a curse, but or you could see the good side of that, as well, you know. And I totally agree with you all the tools that you learn to get through being ill and recover, then they're all just good tools for life. They really are.

Jackie Baxter  
Yeah, I think I'm the sort of person that, you know, always tries to take the positives from things. And you know, not to dismiss the awfulness of the experience, because the experience was horrendous, you know, and it's different for everybody. But, you know, I don't think anyone who has been through long COVID, or any illness that is kind of relatable to that would, would ever say that the experience wasn't awful. 

But, you know, okay, well, sure, it's awful. But can we take something from it, and as you say, you know, you had a lot of time to write, you learned a load of tools that you can now take forward. And you know, maybe there are other positives as well. So I think it's probably certainly for me better to focus on that, rather than I lost three and a bit years of my life, because, you know, that is also true, but it's not going to help. 

A K Davidson  
It is and it isn't, you've lost it in some ways, but in other ways, you've still been doing things and learning things. That's how I look at it, I think. 

And so certainly, for me, you know, I'd never written poetry before I got ill, that was brand new. In fact, I'd never really sort of, I'd always had quite a lot of impostor syndrome around poetry. I've never quite felt like I understood it, or that I was, you know, to the point where it used to kind of irritate me quite a lot, sometimes poetry because I' read stuff. And I' think I don't understand why people think this is brilliant. And so I'd think, what's wrong with me, that I don't get this. 

And, you know, so I was a nonfiction writer, that's for money, and then sort of fiction for pleasure as a hobby, but I'd never engaged with poetry at all. And really, it was that sort of experience of being ill and having to kind of find the sort of the joy and the beauty and the humor in the most mundane things, because that was all you were able to engage with. 

That's kind of what led me to poetry because sort of, it's this miniature canvas in one way, but then another way, it's enormous. So I kind of love the fact that poems are they're kind of bite sized, you know, if you're not got much energy, or whatever, you can still engage with them. They're just a, you know, nice little morsel. But so they're kind of bite sized in terms of how much kind of energy or time you need to engage with them, unlike reading a whole novel, you know, or watching a complicated film with a difficult plot that you might just not have the energy for, you can absorb a poem. 

And yeah, even though it's so kind of short and sweet, it's sort of bigger than the sum of its parts, you know, the resonances it has and that it can carry can be absolutely enormous. So it's kind of perfect for me, I found it really, really perfect for that kind of state of being unwell and being short on energy, and all of those things. And just so powerful really, such a brilliant tool. 

So I came to love it. Having sort of not exactly hated it. Well, I mean, at certain times I did, I did a literature degree, French and Italian literature, and I had to study French and Italian poetry. And I did hate it, actually to be honest. But I kind of moved from that to loving it. So that was, for me, that was a really joyous thing. And a great, you know, something wonderful. Definitely some lemonade, you know, from all those lemons,

Jackie Baxter  
I think it's a really good point about the bite sized as well. I mean, we talked about pacing earlier. You know, and I think, you know, certainly for me, I used to read a lot, you know, I would literally eat books for breakfast, you know, I would read so much. And suddenly not being able to do that. Or I would really struggle with reading. And, you know, I started doing audiobooks, which was great, but I know that some people don't get on with that, for whatever reason. 

And actually, yeah, I think, you know, I sort of wish that I had discovered poetry, because maybe I would have got something from it as well, whether reading it or writing it. Probably reading rather than writing. *laughs* But you know, being able to sort of just read a little bit, because as you say, you know, it might only be like six lines or something. But I think it will kind of keep working its way through your brain, it kind of makes you think, doesn't it?

And, you know, in some ways, maybe if you're thinking about the six lines of poetry you've just read, rather than how incredibly awful you feel, then it's almost like it's, it gives you a little bit of a break from that, doesn't it?

A K Davidson  
That's exactly right, that's exactly and I find it so helpful. If I'm feeling a bit overwhelmed or exhausted or whatever, I take myself back to a poem, you know, and I recite the words in my head. And it just kind of gets my thoughts back under control and into a good place. 

And I've got one poem in the book is that I wrote right at the end when I was recovered. So it's a recovered poem. And sometimes I just sort of recite that to myself if I need a boost, and it actually does give me a boost. It's kind of extraordinary. 

And I just that whole experience of, of kind of capturing big feelings, and putting them into something kind of compact, and on the page. It kind of gets it out of your head, out of your mind. And it's not that they don't exist, those feelings, or that they've disappeared, they're there, but they're kind of under control. And I find that really, really helpful. 

I always feel with poetry, I think the thing that held me back before was you kind of need to find poems that really resonate with you, that relate to your own experience. And that's why they're so amazing, poems, when they're something that makes sense to you, personally. You feel it, and you totally get what the poet is talking about. 

But a lot of the time, you know, it's poetry written by you know, long dead people who lived in a different time, in a different place. And you can't really completely relate to what they're talking about. Obviously, the great poets talk of love or grief, you can, but you know, still sometimes hard to really understand, really feel it the way they're feeling it. 

Which is why I don't know, it seems important in a way to have long COVID poetry, you know, because it's enormous, this experience is really enormous. And so many people are going through it and millions of people. It feels like there should be poetry around the experience of long COVID, which isn't exclusive to long COVID, because all those kinds of themes like grief and loneliness, but also the power of friendship. All those things obviously relate to everybody, and all sorts of other illnesses as well. 

But I just just, I don't know, it felt very satisfying somehow to think you know, no, that's let's make a long COVID collection for everybody who's on this weird, weird, difficult journey.

Jackie Baxter  
Yeah, and we do now start to understand a bit more about you know, the power Creativity in healing, of as you say, you know, getting some of those braining things, you know, those thoughts that are flying around our head, you know, to kind of calm down a little bit, somehow. We now understand a bit more about the idea of, you know, the cognitive rest as well as the physical rest. 

And it sounds like maybe your brain is a little bit like mine, in that it's always busy. And it's very hard to shut that down. And, you know, there are all sorts of things that people use, you know, yoga Nidra was one of my favorites to actually shut my brain off. But actually, sometimes getting those thoughts out and on paper, so to speak, you know. 

I suppose it's a, it's a bit like, you know, when you have 20 million thoughts running around your head, and you're trying to get to sleep, and it's like, okay, I'm just gonna write myself to do this for tomorrow. And then I can go to bed because it's out. And I feel like maybe this is a sort of similar to that, you know, whatever those thoughts are, you know, being able to kind of put them somewhere, you know, park them almost, isn't it?

A K Davidson  
Yeah, that's exactly right. And also just find the perfect way to express something. Because I think, you know, a poem is so boiled down, isn't it? If you just take these enormous, enormous feelings, and just boil them down and boil them down and think, what is it that I'm trying to say, then you can kind of capture it. It's almost like putting it under a glass jar, you know, it's like, you know, stay there, and be what you are, that's fine. But stay there. 

And I don't know, I mean, I think for me, the big thing for me was when I started actually putting poems on Instagram, because I'm a total Luddite, and I'm very kind of uncomfortable with social media. And, you know, and also quite a private person. So to start doing that, for me was, uh, I must be unwell to be doing this, because I obviously, you know, sort of felt like I had nothing left to lose in a way. 

But, you know, that was an amazing experience for me, because when people respond, and it's kind of helped them or bought them some joy, or even just, I think when somebody else understands what you're going through. I mean, you almost sort of physically feel your shoulders drop, the sort of relief that someone gets it. 

And I think, particularly with long COVID, because it's so invisible sometimes. I look back on photographs of myself when I was ill, and I look so well, I can totally understand why people didn't get it. And I think, you know, the, particularly with long COVID, you know, the doctors and nurses don't understand either, do they? I mean, it's improving, I think. 

But I know, at first when I went, I had to go and get my blood pressure, heart rate checked by the nurse at the GP surgery, and she was Oh so why are you here? And, you know, I said, I've got long COVID. Ooh Long COVID What's that then? She'd never heard of it. And that's the person who's supposed to be trying to make me better. So that's tough, I found that tough. That sort of realization that there was no safety net, really, you know, there was no medical support. 

And so, for that reason, just getting that recognition, and sort of, from other people feeling visible, you know, feeling seen and heard with what you were going through and, and helping, hopefully helping other people feel seen and heard, you know. Because receiving support is fantastic, isn't it, but actually, it's also really life enhancing to feel you've helped somebody else. That's a really, that helps you makes you better, doesn't it to feel you're, you do this amazing podcasts. 

So I imagine that you get a kick out of knowing that you're really reaching people and helping people that you've never met before. You know, that's amazing. So that's also that just that power of connection, really, I think, and people find it in different ways. But I definitely got that from writing the poetry, but then sharing it as well. 

Jackie Baxter  
Yeah, and I think, you know, we know now about, you know, the power of social connection, and how important that is, you know, in everybody. And it's something that when you have something like long COVID, that you can kind of lose very, very quickly. Because no one understands you, you don't have the energy, you're not able to participate in, in life, really, you know, in the things that you did, and in the ways that you used to connect with people. So you very, very quickly become very, very isolated. 

And maybe you do have a few people that you connect with, but, you know, maybe not, you know, people who live on their own, I think must have a really hard time with this. And, you know, it must be really, really difficult. So being able to connect at all, I think is important, you know. And I think social media is both a blessing and a curse I think in many ways, but you know, in terms of helping people to feel connected I think it is quite powerful. 

And I think, you know, recently, you know, themes that have come up on the podcast kind of recently, the idea of connection, of course. But also this idea of vulnerability, you know, that kind of enables you to make those connections. And I think the two kind of go hand in hand. 

And, you know, by putting out poems that you've written, you know, I think you are kind of opening yourself up to that kind of vulnerability. You know, you said that you felt a little bit, you know, slightly uncomfortable doing it to start with. But then, you know, what came back from that was this connection with people where you, as you say, both giving and receiving support. And I think that kind of two way process is incredibly powerful, I think. 

And it's not something certainly that I would have wanted to do, you know, I've always needed to be perfect. I'm a bit of a recovering perfectionist. And the idea of being vulnerable, and certainly being vulnerable in front of lots of people is like, gosh, you know, and you sort of get used to it, I think once you start. Certainly that was my experience, it became a lot more natural, once you've done it the first few times.

A K Davidson  
I think it does get easier. But I'm not sure it will ever be easy. I think, as a writer, I mean, because I was a professional nonfiction writer. So that's something where you can kind of, you know, it's not you putting yourself on the page. And I still am. 

But obviously, for fiction and poetry that you get the best response, it's the authenticity isn't it, that people can sense and smell and really respond to? And I think, you know, long COVID sort of taught, like, pushed me into really doing that wholeheartedly. So I'm sort of, sort of grateful for that. 

But you know, like you say, it's so lonely, isn't it. It's so lonely being ill, and I'm ever so lucky, you know, I live with my husband and my children. So I'm part of a family. But I mean, it's still everybody else is going off, going about their day, and you're not. And you can't even you know, when it's bad, like you say, you can't even escape in a novel, or escape in a, you know, TV. 

I did get well enough to work through the back catalogue of Mad Men, which I've never watched. And that was great when I got to that point. But you know, when you're really ill you can't do anything like that. And that is a very lonely place to be. So yeah, I think social media certainly has its faults. But having come at it more with a thought of its faults in my mind, it was actually really lovely to discover the sort of really uplifting kind of creative communities on there. People creating the most amazing art and everything as well, which was so wonderful to follow. 

And I had a peer support group with the yoga for life project, they were a real help, to me. It's an amazing organization, they offer a kind of yoga and breathing and healing online for people with long COVID, as well as people with other conditions. And I was a member, there was a peer support group, which was just brilliant. And a lot of the people from there were creating the most amazing art in all sorts of ways online. So just seeing that was wonderful as well.

Jackie Baxter  
Yeah, that's amazing. Because I think as you say, you know, when you're alone, you're alone with your own thoughts. And that is often not a very comfortable place, you know. And I sometimes think, actually, if I'm that uncomfortable with my own thoughts, it's probably something I should do more often. But you know, when you're unwell, you know, it's a really, really awful place to be. So yeah, for sure. 

You just mentioned the yoga for life project. So I take it, they were something that was very helpful for you in your recovery. Was there anything else? I mean, you know, you've spoken a lot about how the writing was very, very helpful. What else was there that was sort of helpful in your recovery? 

A K Davidson  
Yeah, so quite a few things, is all a bit hazy, the timeline. One of the things I did quite early on was a friend of mine whose son had long COVID recommended a lady who I'm not sure what she would call herself, but she sort of natural healing of all sorts. And I saw her and she actually adjusted, she did some assessments and adjusted my diet. So I adjusted my diet. And that was really helpful. 

So I'm a big subscriber to the whole gut health thing, trying to eat a wide variety of, you know, plants and all the rest of it, all that stuff. But you know, the microbiome. I actually did a York test, which is a thing you can do, to find out about any food intolerances. Somebody suggested that. And I was totally amazed when I discovered that I did have some food intolerances. And so I think cutting some things out of my diet on the basis of that really helped. 

So adjusting my diet definitely helped. I felt it transformed my mood because I'd been quite down at the point that I'd seen her, because it had really hit home that this wasn't just some sort of minor inconvenience as it had been in 2020. This was actually quite life changing. And you know, how was I going to earn a living, and all those questions. So diet. 

And also I saw an osteopath. And that was brilliant for me, because I walked in the room for my first appointment. And that was about a good year in or whatever, I'd had long COVID for about a year at least then. I walked in the room, and he looked at me and he said, What happened to you? 

And that was so amazing. Because, you know, like we've said, it's so invisible normally. He was the first actual kind of medical professional, who could see that something was wrong with me. So that felt really validating, even though it sounds a bit weird. And apparently, I was all out of alignment. 

And I think I'd been breathing so badly that I hadn't been breathing in my upper chest at all, I think. And he just did various things. And for the first time, after that session, I could feel the breath going right up into my upper chest. And I realized that I hadn't been breathing there for like, months and months and months. 

And actually, I mean, I know, you know huge amounts about breathing. But I had thought, and when I look back, I slightly kick myself for this. I played the flute for years when I was at school. And also I've got kids, I've learned breathing for childbirth and stuff. So I sort of felt quite smug about my breathing. I thought I was really good at breathing. 

I mean, probably most people think they're good at breathing, because, you know, we're all here alive. But I felt a bit smug. And I was like, of course I know about the diaphragm and diaphragmatic breathing. And why are people saying that? You know, of course, I'm... 

Anyway, it was a bit of a revelation to discover that, yeah, I've been breathing great into my belly, but I have not been breathing, been using the full expanse of my lungs at all. So, breathing, so then I started taking breathing exercises seriously, you know, finding out about them and doing them. And that really made a big difference. 

And then I had a got a PoTS diagnosis quite late onm and having a diagnosis felt pretty amazing. Again, it's like, oh, you know, I've got something that other people have and can recognize, and I can do things. So I listened to Dr. Boon Lim talking, he was really helpful. So those were the key things. 

I know that every time I've been swimming in the sea, it's been amazing. But that's not something I'm able to do. I'm not near the sea. So that's not something I can do very much. But I think those were the main things. I did take quite a lot of supplements and things. But I don't know, it's impossible to know, isn't it, hat helped. And what didn't?

Jackie Baxter  
Yeah, I think it's, you know, everything is so individual, because everyone is different. So, you know, there's so many crossovers, you know. Every person I speak to you sort of think, okay, they went a slightly different route to me, but they did that thing in the same way, they did that bit, you know, so, you know, you're able to kind of see. 

And, you know, yes, some people have access to certain things. Some people would love to do cold water, but don't have any, for example. And, you know, as you say, we don't always know exactly what things it was that helped the most, because you may be trying several all at once. And maybe it was actually the combination of doing the diet plus the breathing, plus, you know, the writing that really kind of worked together. And in some ways it sort of doesn't matter, does it?

A K Davidson  
No, I think that it all helps. The other thing I did, at the very end because, like I said, I kind of recovered from CFS, I recovered from long COVID twice, and then I had it again. And I did get to the point where I thought, well, I'm probably going to catch COVID again, because I've got a big family. And so I'd started to get to the point where I was getting worried about that thinking, you know, I'm basically fine now. But what happens when I catch COVID again. 

So I did do some brain training as well, that was the other thing that I did at the very end. And that I found fascinating and really helpful as well, actually. So that was the sort of last piece of the jigsaw for me. It gave me really good tools that now I feel this year, kind of confident about staying well. So I feel quite different in a way to how I did when I recovered in previous times. Where I was always conscious I could get it again. 

Whereas maybe I will get it again, but I do feel much more confident that I'm resilient now to you know, infection and that I've got the tools. Because it's about having the tools really isn't it. I mean, you know, life throws all sorts of stuff, in all sorts of ways at all of us. It's just whether you feel that you can cope with it, and whether physically you can cope with it. 

Jackie Baxter  
I think that's a really good point, because, you know, getting sick at all. But you know, having recovered and then getting sick again, you know, there's that fear isn't there? You know, well, it happened to me once. What is stopping it happening to me again. 

And you know, I think partly for me, it's that I'm living a much better life than I was before. So actually, I'm healthier. I'm more resilient than I was, anyway. But yeah, you know, I think even knowing that, you know, there's still that kind of worry, isn't there? Well, I thought I was fine before. So, you know, I think I'm fine now, what's the difference?

A K Davidson  
That's right. And because I've been on that rodeo a few times now, I think that's what made me think, yeah, I'm just going to explore everything that's out there. And I'm really glad I did, because that really, really worked for me, and helped me. And I think, because I know, you know, sort of that question about how do you know, when you're recovered? 

You know, I don't think that's possible to answer really that question, because I think like you say, you live your life in a bit of a different way. So in some ways you know, but in other ways you also know that it's a kind of part of who you are. So you need to be mindful, really, about how you live. Which means taking health seriously, looking after yourself, all of those things. 

Jackie Baxter  
Yeah, that is a really interesting question, isn't it? Because I've had people ask me this before. At what point were you fully recovered? Was it when you could do everything that you could do before? And I'm thinking well, yes, and no. 

Because, you know, at the point where I was fully recovered, that was where I said, Well, you know, I'm obviously very unfit. But I feel like I can push myself in the way a normal person would. So in that way, I wasn't back to 100% of what I was before, but I had the ability to put myself in the position where I could be. 

And then since that moment, which was almost a year ago, actually, you know, things have changed so much since then, I'm almost thinking, was I a bit premature in declaring myself recovered? But I think actually, it was part of the process, you know, and since then, I've got more better. So you know, in some ways, it doesn't matter. You know, in some ways, I think sometimes you've just got to say, Yeah, okay, I'm good. 

And then, you know, things will continue to change, because they continue to change in everyone's life, like, no one is static, are they. As you were just saying, you know, stress, in whatever form that comes, will come at everybody. So, you know, it's not like you say, right, okay, I'm good. And then that is how you're going to be for, you know, things are always going to change aren't they, they're always in flux. And that is just part of being, quote unquote, normal, I suppose.

A K Davidson  
Yeah, that's exactly right. And I think the way I think about it now is all through the COVID period, I was kind of getting knocked back and back and back. Whereas now I'm in an upward spiral. So it's like, when you kind of recover from Long COVID, you don't suddenly run a marathon, you know, because apart from anything else had been incredibly sedentary for, like, you know, a couple of years. So you're just like, normally un-fit, you know, standardly unfit, because you've sat on the sofa a lot. 

But I feel like everything I do now, I'm building up my health and my stamina and my fitness. And you know, that feels honestly amazing. It's just such a brilliant feeling. I actually had a gym introduction yesterday. I got someone - I go swimming, and I got someone to show me how to use the machines in the gym, because I've not been to a gym for like, years and years and years. 

I haven't quite made it onto the machines. But just the idea, you know, I kind of looked at myself from the outside, and I thought, wow, you're having a gym induction, you really are. You're in so much of a better place than you were, you know, that's it's an incredible feeling. It really is.

Jackie Baxter  
Yeah, it's the possibility. I think, you know, it's that you go from this place where you have so few choices, you have so little control. And even once you start to find things that help and you start feeling like you do have a little bit of control, you still don't feel like you have all of that control, you know, your choices are so limited. 

To this kind of other side of it, where suddenly it's terrifying because you could do anything. And that is both a wonderful, incredible feeling. But also it is quite scary in some ways, because you do have too many choices almost. But you know, if you were to choose one, you would obviously choose the too many choices. But it is quite a strange thing coming out of there, I think. 

So, do you have any, like advice that you would have given to yourself? You know, what would you have liked to have heard, Anna of early 2020?

A K Davidson  
Yeah, that's an interesting question, I think you just have to keep putting one foot forward, don't you? I think you've got to keep the hope. Because here is recovery. There's you, there's me, there's a zillion other people and keep going. I mean, I don't feel, you know, qualified to offer that. 

I think if I look back on myself, I mean, I definitely, I had a couple of relapses, because I bit off more than I could chew. And when I look back at that now, I think was really stupid. You know. So in a way, I would sort of say to my past self, be more accepting of, you know, of what you can do. But then on the other hand, I think, well, a little bit of sort of denial is almost important in a way, because you have to keep pushing forward as well, don't you? So don't really berate myself for that. 

I mean, I think, there was an occasion where I sort of let other people down in a work context, because I hadn't appreciated  where I was at. And that I feel terrible about. That's not good. Not something that I like to do, or would normally do. So, you know, ideally, I wouldn't have done that. But at the same time, you do have to just keep trying, don't you? And you can't get it right all the time. So yeah, just keep trying.

Jackie Baxter  
And that's a really good point, because you don't know where your boundaries are, if you don't find them. And, you know, sometimes you're gonna find them by falling flat on your face. And sometimes you're gonna go, oh, okay, I judged that better this time. 

And then they're changing all the time anyway, you know, as things fluctuate, as you see improvement, those boundaries aren't always in the right place, in the place you expect them to be. So, yeah, you know, I think trial and error definitely was something that I learned, you know, to accept the errors.

A K Davidson  
Yeah. And being open minded. I think being open minded to what you can try. And also, I know, I think this is really tricky. But I think when you're ill, it's so upsetting that there isn't the help and support for this devastating illness, that there is for other devastating illnesses, or not even making comparisons. That's a ridiculous thing to do. 

But it's very upsetting that it's invisible, and it's not acknowledged and that workplaces don't know really how to do a phased return, because that's really complicated with long COVID. And people say it doesn't even exist, that's all barmy and weird. All that stuff is so upsetting. I think when you're ill you can sort of want to take on the world and shout and fight and everything. 

And that's obviously needs to be done. And that's a wonderful stuff to do. But at the same time, I kind of think for your own nervous system, certainly for me anyway, for my own nervous system, I had to just let that go. Because it wasn't helping me get better. So I sort of think I'd rather now that I'm better, try and help and try and shout, you know, wait til you're better and then do that. 

I mean, actually one of the things I did that really helped me was, I always used to wake up to the news, you know, I always used to have like radio four come on in the mornings. And during COVID when I was ill, I just couldn't cope with it. I couldn't cope with that onslaught of bad news that I was powerless to affect, coming into my bedroom. 

So I switched over to Radio three and now I listen to Petrok Trelawny on the radio three breakfast show. You know, and it is such a wonderful, uplifting way to start the day. The music is so beautiful. 

And I can't do much about world affairs. So just hearing, having it rammed home that I couldn't do much about these awful things happening was really unhelpful. And actually, so I stopped listening to the news. And I think that helped me get better, you know. And I think then when you're strong, you can re-engage with that stuff.

Jackie Baxter  
Yeah, I think, you know, it's about what you feed yourself, isn't it, whether it's food, whether it's water, whether it's air you breathe, or whether it's, you know, what you're feeding your nervous system? You know, I think all of those things are important. And certainly, I think we tend to forget that sometimes. For sure. 

So, your book is going to be released early June. So hopefully, this will be coinciding with that. But yeah, I'm super excited for this. It's going to be amazing. I think, as you say, people are going to really resonate with this, you know, even if it's, you know, reading one a day. And you know, isn't that beautiful that people can do that? You can really dip in and out as you feel able to do so. Anna, would you like to read us something from your book?

A K Davidson  
Yes, sure. It's really hard to know what to pick because there's sort of all flavors in the book. Some are sad and some are kind of like funny. And they kind of cover all different aspects, I think of kind of everyday life with a chronic illness. 

The book is called Poetry for Life and other chronic conditions, short poems from long COVID. 

So I'll read this one, which is called "well dressed". And it's really about something that we haven't sort of talked much about, but something that I think was quite a big deal for me. The fact that it's really hard to keep up with some friends when you're ill, because you're going through such a big experience that's so difficult to explain. They can't really understand it, and you don't have the energy to explain, nor to perhaps be the sort of friend that you were when you were well. I think that's all quite difficult and quite complicated. 

But the way I chose to look at it was that these friends don't disappear. They're still your friends, forever. You just have the right friend at the right moment, but doesn't mean they go away. So anyway, I wrote a poem about that and it's called well dressed. 

Each autumn, I pack my summer clothes away. Rediscover cozy wool and knee length winter boots. Right now my summer friends are distant too. My dancing, laughing flirting party pals who live life hard and loud at 90 miles per hour. I love them. But they're not right for this season. My autumn friends like gentle walks and quiet films. When the winter's here again, I'll cherish all the comforters so soothe and make life better. Silk vest, cashmere sweater, ideal for freezing weather. Spring will come eventually. Brand new friendships and roots and buds. Then they start to bloom. Now my heart is bursting. But there's more than enough room. Every friend is stored. And each one's time will come.

Jackie Baxter  
That's beautiful. That's such a lovely idea. Well, thank you so much, Anna, for joining me today. It's been such a pleasure hearing your story. Hearing you talk about your work. I will make sure that the link to your book goes into the show notes. So please, everyone go out and buy that, because it sounds amazing. And yeah, good luck with everything. 

A K Davidson  
Thank you so much. It's been so great to talk to you. Thank you

Transcribed by https://otter.ai