Creating female leadership that the world needs with Nicole Harrop

#027

In this episode, I'm talking with Nichole Harrop. Nicole is a wife and mom of two daughters. She's a family focused individual and loves to spend time with her family and friends playing board games, or card games or taking road trips. She says she gets her best ideas when she's on the mountain snowboarding and that inspires her with new content.

Nichole is a Women’s Leadership + Career Coach, helping women get promoted at work. She has led teams in the corporate world for over 10 years. The world needs more female leaders, and she is here to create them. Nichole helps women to create a foundation of leadership in the workplace using her 5 core areas of coaching including confidence, self-awareness, communication, growth mindset, and networking to help them on their way to getting promoted. Tune into her podcast, Next Level Leaders.

We discuss:

• ·         Introducing Nichole
• ·         Transferable skills from our customer experience days
• ·         Why its so important to have female leadership in the world?
• ·         Risk adversity and the role of the male ally and company culture 
• ·         Self-Promotion and vocalising our wins
• ·         More John’s and Steve’s than women leaders
• ·         Creating Female Leaders
• ·         How to excel at the level you are at
• ·         Don’t tell yourself NO!!
• ·         The importance of soft skills 
• ·         Don’t stagnate…while others are doing the work. 
• ·         The little everyday consistency matters
• ·         Applying for positions – language matters
• ·         Using Self-promotion and Networking to define your position as a leader…and not in the way you may think!
• ·         Nichole’s Podcast – Next Level Leaders
•            3 Top Tips

 Contact Nichole:

Website: Career Development | Nichole Harrop, Next Level Leaders Podcast Host

Transcript

Unknown: 0:00

Welcome to the everyday determinator podcast with your host, Anne Okafor the founder of the determining or collective, we want to help you get off that hamster wheel of life and turn you into an everyday determinator by shooting stories for Americans who have overcome varying challenges in life, on careers and by reviewing and signposting you to help or resources to start you on the journey to achieving your goals. For more information on the Terminator collective, please visit www.un okafor.co.uk Thanks for listening determinator.

Anne Okafor: 0:50

Hi, everyone, and welcome to the everyday determinator Podcast. Today I'm talking with Nichole Harrop. Nicole is a wife and mom of two daughters. She's a family focused individual, and loves to spend time with her family and friends playing board games, or card games or taking note trips. She says she gets her best ideas when she's on the mountain snowboarding. And that inspires her with new content. Nicole is a leadership and career coach helping to create female leaders for the new for the new world like you know up and coming. female leaders. Nicole is great to have you with us. Welcome to the podcast.

Nicole Harrop: 1:29

Thank you so much. And I'm looking forward to our conversation today.

Anne Okafor: 1:32

Great. So I understand that you have yourself. You know, obviously you're on this journey of creating female leaders, you believe the world needs more female leaders and you're out to help create them. But your own journey you have held multiple positions of leadership yourself over your own career. So I would just like to tell us a little bit about you and let our listeners know who Nikolas

Nicole Harrop: 1:57

definitely thank you so much. Yeah, I love that intro that you shared. So far, it's so true that I love being out on the mountain. It's winter here for me in Utah, I'm in the US. And I love getting up in the mountains. And it brings me so much peace. And with that I get inspired for different things that I need to be doing or messages that I want to be sharing. And it's been amazing. But I have my two little ones with me often, like you mentioned, I have a two year old and a four year old. So they keep me pretty busy. But I also work a full time position while hosting my own podcast and creating my own business. I also work a very part time position as well. So I like to stay busy and have a lot going on. That's kind of how I keep moving on to that next thing. And that keeps me really excited. So I like to have a lot going on. But yeah, I've held several different positions. Over the past 10 years, I've been in leadership positions for companies that have been around for 20 years or more, or I've worked for companies that are very much in that startup phase, which can be really exciting as well, not knowing what the next month or the next year might bring for that company, which can be a fun place to be in depending on your personality type. It's not for everyone. But I've loved leading these different positions, most of them have been inbound support. So I joke about being born and raised in call centres. That's pretty much my background. Since I graduated high school, I've either waitress at different restaurants or worked in some sort of call centre type environment for the most part.

Anne Okafor: 3:43

So yeah, lots of different lessons to be learned across those different roles as well. You know, I started in in hospitality, retail, and you know, restaurants and hotels myself, and it teaches you a lot about, you know, the business world in terms of the customer experience. And I think it can really translate over to any industry because, you know, whatever, there's people there's customers, internally or externally, whether we realise it or not. And would you say that that's something that you, you know, is taught you from which person and being in call centres. I mean, I think being a call centres, probably quite a demanding environment. It's not something I've done, but it seems like it could be quite a challenging place to learn some skills in.

Nicole Harrop: 4:28

Yeah, I think waitressing definitely you have to be you're constantly on your feet physically, but you also have to be that mentally, you know, figuring out where you're at in that section that you're typically serving and recognising how can I be most efficient? How can I time manage my tables to make sure that I'm clearing plates when they're finished? How can I make sure I'm refilling their drinks and you know, some people think that's a very simple thing to do, but I learned so much while I was working in those environments, because it is how do you make the customer happy and provide a great experience and that lends itself so well to work that I've done entry level as a call centre employee and moving up to my different leadership positions. And people don't think about it as the big picture when you're entering a restaurant and you see some open tables, but you have a 20 minute way. And people think, why can't I be seated at this Open Table. And unless you've been in that experience, knowing how, okay, well, we can serve efficiently have each waitress or waiter serve X amount of tables, or, you know, maybe someone called off sick, so they really can't see every single table without affecting that customer experience. So it's always interesting when people, you know, talk about tipping someone less because of a certain experience. But me because I've been in that position, I can see it as a bigger picture of, I can see my server running around like crazy trying to get everything taken care of. And even though maybe I didn't get the best experience, I can see they're working hard to do their best. And for me, that makes up a big difference of my actual service. Whereas in a call centre, it's a little bit different where you know, you're getting, you're speaking to someone over the phone, or perhaps via email, so you're getting further and further removed from that physical interaction. So sometimes people are a little bit more brash, or harsh or mean, because they can't see face to face who they're speaking with, it's less personal. So that's always an interesting experience. And I've always said, people who have had call centre experience or who've been waitressing, or serving industry, they always have, you know, higher remarks in the interview process, because those are tough positions to be in. And it takes a lot of that kind of grit and resilience to continue going in some of these, especially if you're like a telemarketer doing outbound calls. That's a whole different type of human that I've never really done. So it's interesting when you break it down into these different areas of the types of work. But yes, it's, it's a lot to take on, when you're in a busy call centre, there's been some that I've worked for that right at 6am, we had 100 calls or more in the queue waiting to get in to book their vacations for that next year. And that can be really stressful in that moment, not knowing when you're going to get your next break, or, you know, is your meeting and it'd be cancelled, because there's so many calls and customers come first and figuring out how to not get burnt out when also trying to do your best to serve your customers. Yeah,

Anne Okafor: 7:53

I think the thing that I really resonate with being, having come from the hospitality side, where I've been very customer fronted, you know, you're always there, they're always there, they can see you can see them, in a call centre, there's that, you know, like you said, you're more far more removed from that, they can't see you, you can't see them. I think at least when you're waitressing or you know, working face to face, you can anticipate you can see someone's body language, you can see the reactions to the things that you offer, the way that you approach a situation, you can see if that's working to satisfy them on a call, it's, you know, I can imagine it's, you don't get those cues. So you're, obviously there'll be some voice cues, I guess, and you can hear when someone's getting angrier. But it will surely come up a lot more abruptly than, you know, if you're in front of somebody, you can get those sort of like physical cues that we that we work towards. And I find that quite a scary thing, I guess for me, and it's not something I've done, you know, I always like being able to see or you know, that person is getting a little bit anxious or getting a little bit impatient. Let me go and see if I can do something where you don't have that same ability on the phone. But I think you know, it's good for people to have these experiences and bring them to other jobs, because I think we can do well, in other jobs when we have these experiences when you can read people and you know, start to notice cues of how to pick people and you know, try and find a solution to things because ultimately as a waitress or as a call centre person, you're finding solutions for whatever that customer is looking for. So I think we can definitely bring something to other roles and certainly in leadership as well, because it's very much about people and keeping your people happy. Keeping their company happy. The situation's happy and balanced. There's loads and loads of different things very much like a waitress running about, you know, making sure the drinks are filled and you know, people are being served, plates are cleared tables are ready for the next set of people to come in. So I think there's lots of similarities that I find that maybe people don't see, to look at, you know, on its face value. But when you've been in the industry, you know, some days, I feel like it my job that I'm a waitress lately or like, responsiveness, you know, and it's a totally different game and construction, but I'm still making sure that person is okay, that person is okay, they've got this, they've got this. So I think there's definitely some similarities that we can think about. And I think people don't value sometimes the transferable skills that they can take from these other jobs that we do. You know, we all do them when we're young, and we're learning and we were looking for progression. And we've got these big ideas about what careers gonna look like many of us have to take on part time jobs. And I think it's important for people to realise that actually, some of the best learning you can get is in some of these roles, some of the best lessons that you can bring with you along the way. And you build on them as you go. But I think, you know, it's important to recognise that, and for future leaders as well, you know, I think some people feel like, well, you know, I'm just doing that, or don't really value it, you know, when they go into interviews, and I think we'll talk about this maybe a bit later. But when you go into interviews as up, you know, selling those skills, and telling people what you've done and how it translates to what you're looking to do, maybe in the future. So, we talked about you creating female leaders, and the importance for having female leadership in the world. So why do we need that? Why is it so important to have female leadership and the world today? Yeah, great

Nicole Harrop: 11:36

question. Honestly, I think there are so many women in supportive roles. So you have maybe your CEO and some of those people in that, you know, C suite level, right underneath the CEO. And sometimes those can be filled with women, but it's likely more common, right under them to have more of the female roles in some of these directors, maybe it's senior roles, maybe it's, I guess, different senior management type of roles as well. But a lot of the times, it's women who are, like I said, supporting likely men, and they have just as much say, or sometimes are influencing these leaders or the people next to them, who they're working with there being that influencing force, but they're not specifically having that, overall, say, because they are in more of that supportive role. Feeling like, oh, I don't necessarily want to step so far out of my comfort zone. So I'm going to kind of whisper in the ears of my colleagues of what I think could be that great next step for this company, or that great next thing of product or whatever it might be, that could really help be a game changer for the company. But they maybe don't necessarily want to take full ownership because what if that doesn't go through? What if it fails? What if, what if, what if, and a lot of times, that is what keeps women from going to that next level, is being again in those supportive roles. And historically, that's what women have typically been when we think of gender roles in the household of, you know, if the men or man of the house works, and the woman stays home, with the children, that's a supportive role. They're supporting the children at home, they're supporting their husband while he works. So some of that is definitely generational and things that we've been experiencing historically. So what I love to do is see when women are stepping into these leadership positions, and doing a lot of that self promotion in a way that isn't coming off in overly confident or type of way that feels like it's not authentic, there's certainly a way to promote yourself that comes off very genuine and authentic. And I have loved that seeing the different companies and initiatives, you can see differences, smaller, big, I've seen all of it. When there are more women in the top of a company, women or any sort of diversity in the upper leadership, you can see that trickle down through the culture of the company as a whole. And sometimes where people miss the mark of creating that great culture because there is a lack of it. So I would love to see more female leaders not only in entry level leadership positions, not only in a leadership type of way where you're a leader amongst your own peers without the actual title. I think the world could do so much with having more influence and input from of women.

Anne Okafor: 15:01

Absolutely. I agree. And I think a couple of things that you said there, you know, one was to be that women will be in the sport to nose and maybe give their ideas to the people in the influence positions. I wonder, do you think is that because we are naturally more risk averse? But you know, you said maybe you know, what if that doesn't go through? What if that doesn't work out? Do you think that's something that women are generally naturally more risk averse? Or is that something that generationally we've been taught, you know, you stay at home, you are in the supportive role, you know, where do you think that comes from? Do you think that's something because I see it as well, you know, we do kind of tend to kick back a little bit, and not everybody in it is becoming more women will step forward and step out of that comfort zone. But it doesn't feel like it's the natural thing to do for many people are doesn't seem that way. Yeah, I

Nicole Harrop: 15:57

think it's a combination of both really, I do think women can tend to be a little bit more risk averse, or in the sense that we typically like to see something, let's say, there's things that I've done in my career that have turned out well, so I build competence in that and knowing that okay, if I do that again, I know I'll do it well, but then when I think of okay, if I move to that next position, that's a totally different realm of leadership. Do I want that? What does that look like? How can I best lead a team in that level of leadership? Is that what I want? Is that what aligns with my core values? And determining going from there? Now, I do think that it's really helpful when women have supportive male counterparts in their work as well. I know for me when I've had male counterparts who say, Yes, you should be in that position, or yes, you definitely need to apply or you'd be great at this role, or great at leading this project. Most of the times, women aren't going to volunteer for things that we don't already know we're going to be good at. If there is some sort of, like, I don't know, I'm pretty confident in some of it. But there's some parts that I don't really know how I would do it, we are less quick to raise our hand or say yes, pick me, compared to our milk counterparts. So sometimes we may get beat out simply by the fact that we're not as quick to raise our hands, because we need some time to mull it over and make sure it is that best next step for us as well. So a combination of all of the above, some of us who do have families at home, you know, maybe we aren't as willing to spend the amount of hours that some of these roles may require. And I love when companies can own that. Because you get a higher title doesn't necessarily mean more hours in a week, it's you being more efficient with your time and utilising the skills that you have accumulated in your career and how to best delegate how to best be a supportive leader to the organisation. And with that, I don't think it it amounts to how many hours you're putting in in a certain week, I think it's how you're best supporting your team with the time that you are putting in. So I've loved when I've seen companies who recognise that, because simply if you're telling me that I'm going to need to be putting in, you know, 70 hours a week for that next step in my career. As a mom to young children, I am going to second guess that as opposed to potentially a male who also has young children, but has that supportive spouse, who is mostly the caretaker of those young children, because that family comes first, versus that role in those future opportunities?

Anne Okafor: 19:02

No, definitely. And there's a lot there. That, you know, again, I've come across, I think, one thing that I really come across when he said, you know, we're not as quick to raise our hands or put ourselves forward for something. And I've done quite a lot of work on that in terms of being in a job application situation. So there's a job application, women will apply for the job when they take 100% of the boxes, men when they've got 60 or 70%. You know, they're quite confident that well, you know, I've got 6070 That's fine. Women want to have all the boxes ticked, you know, we want to make sure we've got everything and we're fully we know we can do that. And then we apply and I think in that sort of situation of competition, we almost discount ourselves before we even you know get a chance to it because we've already said well no no we don't have 100% So we're out of the game, you know, where's the guys are up 60 70% And give themselves a chance. They'll put their hand up they'll apply though. Put them selves forward for things like awards. So you will always put their hand up in the boardroom or when they have a new project who's going to lead this or I can do that, you know, and we'll sit more, I think reflectively sometimes, and I don't necessarily think that's a bad thing, I think sometimes that can be a good thing as well. Especially maybe when there is more risk and, you know, families to balance and things like that, that, you know, there's nothing wrong with that. reflectiveness. And taking a moment to, to know it's the right thing for you. But sometimes I do wonder if we don't help ourselves, by not talking up the things that we do? Well, I think another thing you mentioned about, you know, people will gaze, we'll talk about the things we're good at, we won't do that, you know, and if we don't do it, someone else will probably take credit for what we are doing. You know, you said about the woman whispering to the, you know, the directors and things like that. He gets a credit upfront that when that that project works out, amazingly, you know, he's getting the accolade albeit it's, you know, been influenced by someone else's idea. And I think it's important that self promotion, and, you know, we learn to be more confident about what we are good at, and we actually vocalise those things. I think I read a stat recently about there being more John, CEOs in the Fortune 500 companies in America, there's more CEOs that are John's are called John than there is women. And we have a similar stat here in the UK, and it's more Steve's, than women. Um, there was a lady, there was another African and then Netherlands or something that was Jack's, you know, there's a trend of this, you know, I mean, there's actually more of a certain name of guy, that there is women and these companies are leading, and it just seems bizarre, that, you know, 2022, we're still sort of fighting these battles, and, you know, help helping women to, to build the skills that, you know, we need to help with sometimes, you know, it's not for everybody, but I think general trends and general stats, when you look at them, assure that we're not quite there yet, you know, whether it's because we're not getting opportunities, or we're not putting ourselves forward, I think there's probably a bit of both at play to be fair, and it will be different for the individual. You don't depending on what individual we're talking about, at the time, but you're talking about creating female leaders. So how do you do that is that an improvement on skills is a, you know, what, what does that mean? What does creating female leaders mean?

Nicole Harrop: 22:39

Yeah. So at its base, I would say, being a leader amongst your peer is that first step, especially if you're in one of those entry level positions, you have goals and dreams to grow within the company, it's very normal to join a company and think, Okay, how can I grow? What's that next step, which I get asked a lot in interviews that I conduct is, okay, what's the growth look like in this company, which I think is great, every company, if you can have growth, it's one of those things that provide people more excitement to stick around, to want to invest in that company, if there is that professional development and growth. What I also look at is growing your skills and abilities in general. So when you are working for a company, you may not always grow up a particular career ladder, so to say it's changed so much. And if you're chasing that next position, especially at a company that doesn't have a whole lot of internal promotions, then you might be waiting a couple of years. And if you're really excited about the idea of growth, and to you, that means a title change, you might get burnt out pretty quickly. So what I focus on is how do you be seen as a leader where you're at today, because likely, if you're entry level, and you get promoted, you will be leading either your current entry level team or another entry level team. So when you can be seen as a leader amongst your peers, by helping in whatever way that is, what strengths do you have? What do you do well, and your current position because people start asking, How soon can I promote? What can I do here? What can I do next? And I think you have to excel as a baseline you have to be excelling in your current position before you can be considered for something else, with rare exception, I would say but you want to be really excelling in your current position, going above and beyond and being able to help those around you. So when I was in an entry level position, I did really well with memorising, were all For help articles were so if someone wasn't sure where that was to walk through a process or to explain something to a customer, they would message me and I would send them the link of where to go because they needed it right then it wasn't, hey, let me come over and teach you how to find this. Because they needed it in that moment, then afterwards, I would say, Hey, let me know when you're done with that call, and I can talk you through how I got there. So then I share with them my thought process of okay, it was in relation to this. So I searched this key word, it pulled up these few articles. And I skimmed through them. And I found this article that I then sent to you. So you, then you're teaching your mentor and your fellow peers. And another thing that I did, while at was part of our insurance policies, when booking vacations. And while I wasn't great at closing the sale, particularly, I was always good at consistently bringing it up, which was an expectation on our phone calls, and how to bring it up in a way that didn't feel so salesy. So I started then offering to other managers, Hey, how can I sit? who is struggling? And who can I sit with to mentor and listen, and then they can listen to me, and vice versa, so that we can figure out how to get them better and more comfortable at least bringing it up, because the first step is being able to talk about it, not necessarily about the sale itself. So I figured out ways that I could offer value to the company that I was at the position that I was in, how can I offer value. And that helps me be seen as a leader amongst my peers. And then as I continue to grow, it's how do I share what I'm working on with other people? How do I continue to get that buy in, and a lot of that is internal networking. So a big thing that I focus on with people who I work with, is that networking piece, I have five main pillars that I focus on in my coaching, so that I keep it relatively simple with these concepts. Of course, there's things that I talked about outside of that, but most of it breaks down to competence, self awareness, communication, growth, mindset, and networking. And usually, it's in that same progression that we always start out with competence. Where are you currently out with your competence? How can we continue to grow that because you're not likely going to want to step into those roles, right, you're not going to apply for those positions that you don't check all the boxes, if you aren't confident in your ability to learn the skills that you may not have yet. So I always say don't tell yourself, no, let others tell you no, and especially when it comes to applying for positions, because you never know if you're going to be a right fit. If you never actually apply, you're already taking yourself out of that race. And that helps, you know, shorten that gap of the amount of men applying to positions as opposed to women, as well as underrepresented minorities. So yeah, as a focus of creating these people, it's really focused on those internal skills and not just, you know, anyone can learn a programme, or anyone can learn how to answer a phone, right? It's usually they say, a Skill versus a will issue in that matter of, okay, I can teach you how to learn how to create an email, or I can teach you how to schedule a calendar, whether no matter how basic the task is, as long as you are willing to be taught you can learn these different skills. The next level that I take it to with my coaching, is those additional skills like the soft skills, how do I approach someone with feedback? How do I accept feedback? Because that's something that's really hard for all of us? How do I communicate when I'm frustrated about a change that's coming in? How do I get buy in on all these other things. So it's mostly a focus on those soft skills, because truly, you can learn whatever programme or thing that you need to do for your job. It's those soft skills that are going to help you to keep growing to those next levels of leadership.

Anne Okafor: 29:27

Absolutely. And I totally agree with that. And I think it is very much about the attitude of the person or whether they're willing to put in the effort to progress. And I think one thing you said at the beginning there was that if you're looking for progression, you need to do the work, you know, and put in a little bit extra for an Excel. And I think people get quite, you know, when you're talking about maybe there's a couple of years difference. You know, some companies have quite steady growth sort of period. Some maybe have to wait a couple of years and I think there's a real danger that if you don't do that work, that while you're sitting about waiting for a promotion, other people are progressing. So you're left behind, but also you become stagnant and you're, you know, you're comfortable, if you just sit with your own abilities, and you don't actually look for growth, you're becoming further and farther away from the other people who are progressing because you're doing nothing, and they're growing. And then when the time does actually come for promotion opportunity, you know, or, you know, maybe a new job that comes up that you think like that you bear, you're nowhere near that, you're actually farther away than what you are the start, because you've done nothing to move towards it for a couple of years. And I think people forget that as well. It's all well and good, same do the growth, but actually, if you don't do it, you're further away than what you were to start with compared to your counterparts, your peers, who are putting in the work. And I think certainly at entry levels, that's really important, if you're looking to claim, you know, look around, and the people that are looking to grow, and putting the work in because it is, you know, is a bit extra work, you know, is a bit extra for, if it was easy, we would all be doing it. You know, everybody would be getting every promotion that came up to them. If it was easy, but I think, you know, that is something that really resonates with me. And the other thing that I really liked was the using your strengths and your and it doesn't need to be, you know, going out and learning. You know, the next bit of tech or anything, you know, you said you memorised where things were in the system. And you know, that's something that, you know, we all have the little things that differentiate us from the next person, we're all you know, memorising something or it'll good with a computer programme or something like that, that we can help each other with. And I think if you're there and you're willing and able to help your peers and your workplace to succeed, obviously, that's great for the business, it's great for you, it's great for them. But you are all learning together, because whenever you need something as well, you're able to tap into their strengths, and it can be reciprocated. And it makes better teams I think as well, you know, a team that works together will succeed together, you know, if you're communicating the differences of talent that you have, and working together to find solutions. I think that's really, really important. You know, and I agree with you, you know, this has to start with confidence. It's, it's a big thing for a lot of people, but actually, it doesn't always need to be, I think a lot of what we already do. If you know some people, I'm sure there's things that I do that I don't fit, think make me confident. Other people when I asked them, and I've done this a couple of times, I've said to them, I don't feel like a leader, sometimes they'll say oh, we you you are because you're always the first to put your hand up, you're always the first person to help us. And it's and it's that real realisation that it doesn't need to be grand gestures all the time. Sometimes it's just the little things that you do every day to build up into a bigger picture of you as a leader. And I think it's important for people to know that it can be the things that you do already. And just consistently, and you know, the everyday things that you do, and I think that's something that well, we're everyday determined errs, I think it's you know, is that every day, consistency that makes big changes for people, and it can help your confidence if you're working on something and doing something every day it can help. So I think what I would ask now is, what do you think are the pain points for women in terms of this confidence piece? But in terms of getting into leadership? What are the pain points, you know, we we mentioned briefly application and not applying not being ourselves forward? What about the language that's used sometimes in maybe job applications and their tear towards you know, male traits and things? Is that something that you have come across yourself or something that you feel that maybe your clients I've come across, where they feel that the language wasn't targeted to them? And maybe it was off beaten to them?

Nicole Harrop: 34:08

Yeah, I don't know, necessarily, like the language itself within the job, like the job description. But yeah, I certainly will talk to it in a way of applying for positions and how I'd love to see more women, you know, stand out and advocate for themselves and to be able to kind of do that self promotion. So when it comes to applying for new positions, I always recommend adjusting your resume based on the positions that you're most interested in. I don't recommend revamping your resume each time because that can get very exhausting. So you're gonna have your generic resume, and then you're gonna have an option where you can make some edits. And if you're really excited about a company, because job descriptions are really boring, so if you You click on a company and you're like, oh my gosh, wow, these I love their mission, I love their values. It really resonates with me at my core, I'd love to apply for this position. That's when I recommend looking at the wording in the job description and adjusting your resume. If they're using particular words or phrases, frequently, you can go in and update your resume that it has similar phrasing as well. So that can help with applicant tracking systems. It can help with someone who's likely written or participated in the writing of the job description, if you're speaking in a similar language that they are, it creates a connection, which is weird that you'd be like, Oh, I'm already connecting to them through their resume. And it's because you're using similar words or phrases that are in the job description itself, then it's preparation is key. I do a lot of sessions that are sometimes one off sessions to help build competence. And they're focused around interview prep. So someone might reach out and say, Hey, I've got some interviews coming up, as they'll send me some job descriptions of the companies that they've been applying for. And we'll do an hour long session, it's recorded. And I'll ask them questions as if it's a real interview. And I'll give them feedback after each question. So I'll say, okay, when I said, please introduce yourself briefly, and you talked about yourself for five minutes. Sometimes companies are gonna have that as like, Okay, I said briefly, they talked for a longer time. So are they picking up on those smaller cues? When I say, Tell me about a specific time, when you encountered an upset customer? How did you handle it? And then they spoke more generally, oh, well, when I do talk to upset customers, this is typically how I handle it. And so I'll give that feedback of getting more specific. And we'll break it down to get those answers so that they feel confident, okay, now I know how I should be answering these questions. And then I'll send them the recording so they can rewatch it or re listen to it as often as they'd like. Because it does help you get a sense of when you see yourself, especially if it's a virtual interview experience, like we do, through when I do the coaching, you can then see oh, I realised that I didn't make a lot of eye contact, because it's kind of weird that you're looking at like a green.on, your computer to make eye contact versus looking at them on your screen. So recognising the difference there? Was I looking like I was excited was I engaged, you know, did I lean in when they were asking me certain questions and part of that body language that can show that you are interested. So we talked about those things to again, have that kind of self promotion and feel more confident along the way I think those come hand in hand is the confidence piece, and being able to communicate and share about the things that you do well, which is that act of self promotion piece. So those are probably the two pieces of advice when it comes to the pain points of you know, starting the interview process.

Anne Okafor: 38:20

I mean, great tips there. And I've done a workshop, which is all about being remarkable. And it's about the self promotion piece, and they talk about very much about it being what they call the remarkable illness muscle. But like going to the gym, you know, you if you want to build something, whether it's you know, your muscles, or a skill, you have to do it multiple times, you can't just do it once and expect to have the gym body, you know, you can't just go to the gym once and expect to be you know, bikini ready. Again, you've got to do the work, and you've got to build it. And you've got to keep going and keep trying. And I think this sort of self promotion piece and getting comfortable in that space is very much like keep going back and keep you know, trying something else and you know, doing the preparation work. So that when you're in the situation, then you can you can shine. You know, you can do that self promotion and not feel so awkwardly about it. But the one thing that I do often hear quite a lot. When we mentioned self promotion as a topic. People almost feel like there's a negative sort of connotation around, especially women, it seems to be much more frowned upon when women do the self promotion piece. And there's a sort of attachment with sort of bragging and how that negative thing. What would you say to that? Yeah,

Nicole Harrop: 39:40

I think it's all in the way that you approach it. So I view sharing about your accomplishments or being able to self promote as a way of communicating how you can offer value to other people. So foundational Really, it's building relationships, building up your own competence within these relationships. And then seeing again, like I've mentioned how I would go out and help people improve the way that they were talking about the insurance that we offered at this particular company, I was not necessarily a pro at it, like I said, I wasn't the number one salesperson, because likely the skills and the attributes of that number one person aren't going to be transferable to the greater of the whole company. So what I said was, my strength is, hey, I'm consistently bringing it up on every single phone call in a way that comes across more conversationally, and as an added value to them for protection, versus something that is for me that I'm going to get a payout on. So I changed the way that I viewed that as not a commission for me and something that is helpful for me, I viewed it as how can I make sure that they get this protection offered to them, they can say no, and I'm not going to be offended. But I'm going to talk to them about why they might want to purchase this protection. And if I even get them to be thinking, actually, I've never bought it on any of my other vacations. But you're right, I am thinking about purchasing it for this next one, you bring up some really great points. So if I'm heading people in that direction, maybe they don't buy it with me, maybe they buy it with that next person who I've mentored, because they've also talked about it in a way that is a benefit to the customer and not a benefit of the sale for myself. So flipping that around, self promotion does not have to be I think we think of self promotion, like we view networking. When I say networking, a lot of people instantly think of themselves in a big group of people they don't know at an event with a name tag with their name on it. And we're networking every single day with our co workers, with our leaders, with people in other departments, how we're speaking to them. That is essentially networking, it's communicating. It's building those relationships. So I try to see self promotion in that same value is, how can I offer some help to you? How can I help you be a better person? Based on these things that I know how to do? And how can I potentially either offer that to you without anything in return? Or how do I also get value from you in either mentorship or connections or whatever that might be. So self promotion is something as easy as, let's say you take on a project, and you're not quite sure you want some feedback, you're feeling pretty good about it. But you want to get some more of that buy in, you want to get some more of that other departments recognising the things that you are working on. So that hey, next time, there's a bigger project, they know that specifically you were the one doing these things in the background. So I'll set up a meeting with another department head with obviously communicating with my leader in advance and kind of talking about the game plan, hey, I would love to grow within this company. And part of that I think would be helpful is if more people in similar departments know what I'm working on with these different projects versus kind of working behind the scenes. So I say, Hey, I'd love to schedule a meeting, I let this other department person know, these are the things that I've been working on on this project, I'd love your feedback on X, Y, or Z, let's be very specific. And then when you meet with them, maybe it's only 15 or 20 minutes. But you've already sent the email letting them know like, what you're working on what you want them to be thinking about in advance. And then when you're meeting with them, you're building some more of that relationship, that connection, that network. And then you're sharing, Hey, these are the things I'm working on. Do you have any other advice? Do you have any other input, we are welcoming that feedback in that buy in so that people are then going to go out and say, Wow, Nicole's working on all of these things. And she talked about all these other ideas, which then had me thinking about this, and we really need her on our team. So when we grow like let's think about actively pursuing her when prior to that, they may have heard about me, but not more specifically about what I had been doing, and none of that feels like salesy. I'm not a salesy person at all. I am very much of the you know, give my heart and put everything of that into my work and show up authentically, I show up very vulnerably as well as what I can do well and what I what my shortcomings are so that I can I ask for help from other people. And that has really helped in my own growth and progression in my career. And I don't feel like I've had to go out there with you know, a poster banner that says Like hire Nicole for next position, you know, it's very much to having those conversations and making sure people know who I am, especially in a virtual world. If you're working virtually, and you haven't seen the face of some of these people, schedule an introduction session and say that you want to get to know more about what they're working on. And if you can add any value, and even if you're just listening to them for 15 minutes talk about these different projects they're working on, you're offering that support. So again, it helps you to recognise and connect dots later on to say, Oh, I remember when so and so told me that they're working on this, this other team member is really great at those things, I should connect them, because that they could work really well together. And even though that doesn't necessarily benefit me, if that leader then knows that I connected them from a conversation months ago, that goes to show that I was listening, I was paying attention, I was finding out how to create value, and I created value by that connection.

Anne Okafor: 46:01

No, I mean, there are really great tips, I think that no one can take away. And it's not things that knitter Like said before, it doesn't need to be, you know, going out and learning a new skill. It's using what you already have, what you're really good at. And I think I'm I resonate very much when you talk about the MC and connections, because that that's the type of thing that I do. And it's very much worked for me, it's understanding that it's relationship building. And, you know, relationships ultimately help get results when you work together. And down the line. You know, it doesn't have to be it'll go, like you said about the network. And don't go in there with the what do I need to get out of this today? Hit? What can I listen and take back so that maybe, you know, I don't know how many times when I have a call with someone. And then the next day I start seeing things that I know will help them. And I can connect them because we've had that conversation I would have been totally oblivious before. But I go in always thinking, what do you do? What do you need? What What are your pain points? What can I maybe help with? Maybe I can't help with anything today, maybe tomorrow I can maybe something will come up or someone or someone in my network says, Well, I'm looking for a person that does this, or I know that person from yesterday. And you can bring them together. And I think that's something that we can all do a little bit of even if we're not always that feel that we're good at networking or have that confidence. But everyone can listen, everyone can, you know, show interest to their peers and the people that they work with about what they need from roles. And I think it's a really good important skill to have as listening, particularly in leadership. So definitely something that we can all work on, and hone. So we've had a really great conversation there, Nicole uncovered loads and loads of things. And you give us a little bit about your what you do in your coaching business. I know you also host a podcast called next level leaders, you want to just give us a brief overview about what that what sort of things you talk about there, just in case our listeners might want to tune in to you. On next level, we've just too.

Nicole Harrop: 48:02

Perfect. Yeah, thank you so much. So as we've talked about my five core areas of coaching, I focus on that throughout many of my podcast episodes, I usually do a Monday message, which is a quicker podcast episode that you can implement into your day or that we kind of get you excited about the week. And then throughout the week, I might release an additional episode, I do a lot of guest episodes as well, getting connected to amazing women that I have so far have only ever interviewed women, which is something that I think is great as well focusing on all these amazing women leaders in so many different facets of their own lives. So it's a lot of fun to, you know, get to know people outside of your current environment. And oh, I love this little piece of what this person said, and oh, this got me thinking here. So if if you're interested in continuing to grow in your own career, maybe that's not necessarily upward trajectory. It's growing right where you're at and the skills and the abilities. I know my podcast is something that can be really helpful to spark different areas that you want to continue to invest in your own growth, where you're at in your position today.

Anne Okafor: 49:17

Thanks, Nicole. That's great. And we will share the links for these things in the show notes. I'll ask you to tell us where they can find them in a second but just to round everything up in our conversation, what would be your top three tips for someone who is maybe a bit stuck maybe looking for started out to self promote or start you know, maybe going into a situation where they've got an interview or maybe they're looking to show their value in a negotiation, you know, for a new job or a promotion at work? What would be your top three tips for a person in that situation?

Nicole Harrop: 49:51

Yeah, so I think the biggest thing is if you don't feel like you have enough self confidence, it's asking your peers Hey, you What do you think I do? Well at in the workplace, maybe that's asking, you know, your spouse or your significant other, or your family members as well and figuring out, okay, what do other people perceive that I'm good at? And how can I lean into those strengths and recognise what those are, because sometimes you're right, we don't recognise the great things that we're doing because we simply are giving as much as we possibly can. And then I would say, being able to advocate for yourself, and that whole self promotion of recognising your worth writing down, I talk a lot about a career journal on my podcast, and my website is all about writing down the things that you are doing, what are you participating in? Maybe you're not leading projects, but What projects are you supporting? What are you doing, that's making a difference within these different projects, and then going back and either advocating for a bonus or a raise, or feeling more confident and saying, Oh, my gosh, I've supported all of these projects, I think it's time for me to actually like, raise my hand and say that I'm going to do it. And then part of that as well is talking to your leader and having a good relationship with your director, leader. And that is so important. And if you don't have that, and you don't think you ever will, I think it's worth finding a different career, I know there are different positions, that you could go find very similar work and find a better working environment. Because if you don't get along well with your current leader, it does add an additional layer of difficulty to be seen and heard, and because if they're not bringing up your name, who else is in these meetings, but that first person to gain that buy in from is that leader and part of what we talked about with not wanting to raise your hand right away and feeling more hesitant is I've had conversations with my boss and said, hey, you know, I like to think things out a little bit more and be able to like visualise what that would look like if I owned a project. And I found that when you bring those up in a team meeting, I'm still very much visualising what that might look like. And by the time I've even thought about it for three seconds, you've already assigned it to likely one of my male counterparts. So can I get a heads up on some of these upcoming projects, so that I can know if I would be a right fit for those or not, and then volunteer. So it is partly challenging your leader, especially I have a podcast episode on on male leaders like working with male leaders. Sometimes as women, we have to take that role to help educate and guide our male leaders and mentors, how to best serve their female team members. And I will mention those things to my male leaders and say, Hey, as a female in the workplace, I recognise that we may not be as quick to volunteer or we may be a little bit more hesitant to share our opinion. So it can be helpful if you ask us if we want to share our opinion or a thought, talking to us kind of behind the scenes and saying, Hey, would you want me to, you know, call on you to share your opinion on something so that you can get more visibility in our team meetings, is that something you're open to, and then having them actively follow through on that? It feels kind of weird to be coaching your leader, but it's so important in the workforce, whether you are, you know, female or underrepresented minority, it is important to be that advocate, not only for yourself, but for others.

Anne Okafor: 53:45

Absolutely, and really great tips there. And I think, you know, anyone listening, and if you're looking to start this journey and self promotion, there's some really three excellent tips there for you to make that start. Again, I'm going to mention that I am remarkable workshops that I facilitate as well. And you know, if that's something you're interested in, please do get in touch, or listen to the courts podcast or reach out to her in terms of career journal, I think sometimes that missing piece for a lot of us is recognition of what we're good at writing it down. And that's something that we do in the workshop, this we bring that to the front and help people to understand what makes them remarkable. So, and we all have, you know, we all have things that we do on a day to day that make us remarkable. So thank you for sharing those great tips with us. If our listeners would like to get in touch with you or learn more about Nicole or your coaching or next level leaders podcast, where can we find you online?

Nicole Harrop: 54:45

Sure, the best place to find me is probably my website. It's Nicole harrop.com. I know and we'll link it in the show notes that has linked to my podcast, to Instagram, LinkedIn, all the different places that I write articles as well as other podcasts that I've been a guest on as well. If you're interested in hearing other episodes that I've been a guest on as well.

Anne Okafor: 55:09

Awesome. Well, like you said, we will include those in the show notes that you can directly link straight there and find out more. And I know there's plenty of family said blog posts and things like that, that you have that all add value around this subject of self promotion. So if you are looking to dive a little bit deeper into the topic, please do have a look at Nicole's website and the resources that she has there will be a worthwhile visit for sure. And Nicole, thank you so much for a really great and in depth chat there with me appreciate your time today. Thank you so much for giving us that insights. You are remarkable and thank you for that. Thank you in so listeners whether you are bouncing back from a challenge or storming forward to the next thing. The determinant are collectivist here for you. Stay remarkable this terminators.

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