Witnessing: Advice from An Expert with Eric Simmons, Part 1

Join us on a thought-provoking journey as we sit down with Eric Simmons, Associate Pastor of Disciple Making from First Baptist Church of Summerfield, to illuminate the often misunderstood practice of apologetics within the Christian faith. Apologetics is not about apologizing; it's about articulating a well-reasoned defense for our beliefs. Eric walks us through its biblical roots and its critical role in both evangelism and nurturing steadfast faith in the face of challenging ideologies. This conversation is an eye-opener for anyone seeking to bolster their understanding of Christianity and prepare the younger generation for the intellectual battles they may face, especially within academic environments.

Listen in as we tackle the compelling topic of sharing your faith, a duty that, surprisingly, many Christians shy away from. We delve into the power of personal testimony, especially the transformative narrative of the resurrection, and the need to prioritize genuine relationships over debates when engaging with non-believers. Our chat also sheds light on how our daily choices and media consumption may either bolster or undermine our witness to the world. This segment is a heartfelt call to authenticity, urging believers to live out their faith in a way that naturally invites others to explore the hope we hold dear.

Our final segment probes the delicate balance of humility and accountability within the church. The all-too-common facade of perfection can alienate, particularly the younger faithful, who crave authenticity and honest mentorship. We discuss the importance of fostering a church environment that champions loving correction over harsh judgment, and the role this plays in nurturing a sincere and resilient community of believers. Tune in for an enriching conversation that emphasizes the need for a faith community that practices what it preaches and faces its imperfections with grace and truth.

Transcript

0:00:00 - Melody

Hi, I'm Melody and I'm Candi, and you're listening to Quirks, Bumps, and Bruises. 

0:00:08 - Candi

Today we have a special friend of ours in the studio. His name is Eric Simmons. He is from First Baptist Church of Summerfield, North Carolina. Tell me your exact title. 

0:00:18 - Eric

Associate Pastor of Disciple Making. 

0:00:21 - Melody

So, eric, you are an apologist. You don't have to tell me you're sorry, I'm just kidding. 

0:00:27 - Eric

That's what a lot of people think. 

0:00:29 - Melody

So I know that that term, I think, scares a lot of people. A lot of people are just not quite exactly sure what that term means. So tell us what that means and then kind of how that relates to what you do in your position. 

0:00:40 - Eric

Yeah, so apologetics, you know? Oddly enough, before I became an apologist that's what I thought. Like why would I need to give an apology or say I'm sorry, but no? Apologetics comes from the Greek word apologia that Peter actually uses in his letter Whenever. He says always be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within you. So that word defense, so apologetics is literally just to give a defense for something. So we practice apologetics all the time. So Christian apologetics would be practicing giving a defense for Christianity or for your faith, something we should be able to do. Peter tells us always be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within you. 

Why do you believe what you believe? And it pertains to what I do, because disciple making is really the idea of two practices within Christianity. It's evangelism. Disciple making is really the idea of two practices within Christianity it's evangelism to share the good news and discipleship, which is what George Robinson. He defines it as rightly ordering the priorities of another. And so how apologetics plays into that is because apologetics is something that the church really all the way back to Paul's time I mean through the book of Acts you hear about Paul giving a defense for or giving a reason why, and the church fathers did the same thing. They wrote a lot about why we should believe what we believe and defended the Christian faith. And so it plays into it because on both sides one in evangelism there are some times that people believe certain things that just aren't true. True, or they believe certain things or propagate certain things that just aren't logical, but they believe them wholeheartedly. It helps to be able to give a defense for that, to be able to push back into that. And from the discipleship perspective, once we become Christ followers, you know, Jesus calls us to walk with him and to grow in our faith. Jesus calls us to walk with him and to grow in our faith. You could say it this way People don't die for the what, in the sense of what's taking place or what something says, you know, they die for the why. 

And I always think about a scene from Braveheart with Mel Gibson. And right before the Scottish are getting ready to take on this big English army, they're getting ready to turn away, they're not going to stand their ground. William Wallace, you know, he rides up with his, his entourage, and he gets out in front of all of these just normal people who have it. This, you know, amazing speech, you know, on the battle lines, for why they should fight and really inspires just this army that was getting ready to lay down to the English and really changes the course of history because of that. 

And Christianity is no different. You know, a lot of what we do is just we tell people kind of what to believe, and the problem is is that we don't really ever teach them why to believe that. So the why matters, and so that's how it plays off on both sides From an evangelistic perspective. There are people that we have to, you know, share our faith with that. We defend the hope that we have, you know, from the discipleship perspective, there's believers that we need to teach them how to defend their faith and why we believe what we believe you know. 

And some people will say, well, we're not going to argue anybody into heaven. I would disagree with you arguing in the sense of bickering back and forth Absolutely. But apologetics isn't about bickering. Apologetics is about providing reasoned and rational arguments for why you should believe what we believe you know, to say that we're not going to argue anyone into heaven. I don't think the Apostle Paul got that message because he argued with plenty of people. Specifically in the book of Acts we see him do it over and, over and over again and I think if the Apostle Paul did it, to me that seemed like a good thing to follow. I'm just me. 

0:04:22 - Melody

We're talking about apologetics, what that means. Follow, I'm just me. We're talking about apologetics, what that means, and I feel like and Eric, you can speak into this apologetics needs to start really young, because we are having so many of our young high schoolers, college age kids, walking away from being in church all their life, walking away as soon as they go to college. You know they can get into a situation where they're indoctrinated somewhat and if they don't know why they believe what they believe, they're going to fall pretty quick. Yeah, speak to that a little bit and how you feel about apologetics starting at a young age. 

0:04:57 - Eric

Yeah. So apologetics again is just basically answering the why question. And you know, what's fascinating is that when I was younger, this used to drive my dad nuts. It got me in trouble a lot. My dad was a naval commanding officer, and so you don't really question them, but I sure did, and you know, it's just the idea of you know why, why do we believe this or why, why should we do this. That's important at a very young age, because you know we're teaching things in schools that just what we would call self-refuting truths, and so I'll give you an example of that. You know, something that's really popular in college right now is the idea that, well, there is no truth. Truth is relative. There is no absolute truth. All truth is relative. That's a self-refuting truth, because the claim that they just made there is no truth is an absolute claim. 

0:05:45 - Melody

And so, if there is no truth is an absolute claim, and so if there is no absolute truth, you can't really say there is no absolute truth. 

0:05:50 - Eric

What you just said is an absolute and therefore there is truth. It's kind of the same idea of something you hear, you know in the political realm right now Always a hot topic to go to, but the idea that you know, hey, you can believe what you want to believe in private, but you know you should keep your private beliefs just to you, that they belong in private, they have no business in public. The problem with that statement is that's a private belief, your private belief that it doesn't belong in public is your private belief, which means you should stay in your own business and according to your own truth, right, and so teaching apologetics. 

It's not this idea, like it's got a bad rap. What people think of when you talk about providing arguments or, you know, giving a defense, is well, I'm not going to argue with anybody, and that's just not true. Like if you've ever hung out with somebody who's a Carolina fan and a Duke fan, you fight and argue all the time. Question is not are you going to? Are you going to fight and argue and give a defense for something? The question is are you going to do it about things that actually matter? Newsflash. I mean this. 

I had to come to my own awakenings. Who's better in college basketball, duke or Carolina is not a subject that matters for eternity. You know we're losing relationships, or potentially hindering relationships, for something that, at the end of the day, it doesn't matter. You know what 15 kids do on a basketball court, in the grand scheme of things, right, doesn't matter, but yet we stake everything. You know a lot of stuff on it, but then, when it comes to sharing our professed faith in Christ with our friends, those same friends that will just get red in the face over about arguing about a better basketball program. You know, when it comes to sharing our faith about Jesus, we won't engage, and I think a lot of that is just to give the benefit. Of the doubt is that we've never taught them how to engage. We've never taught them what that actually looks like, which is important. You know, the crazy thing is there's only one thing in the entire Bible that we're actually given that tells us if you can prove Christianity false. This is it right? So if you're ever asked this question by somebody like well, if there was one thing, one thing that would get you to walk away from Christianity, what would it be? It'd be the resurrection, right, and Paul. 

Paul even said that. He wrote in 1 Corinthians, 15, 13,. He said if there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised, and if Christ has not been raised, and our proclamation is in vain and so is your faith. And he goes on a little bit further down in 16 and 17, same chapter. He says for if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised, and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless. You're still in your sins. 

And what's neat is that he gets towards the end, in verses 19 and verses 32. And he says if we put our hope in Christ for this life, only then we should be pitied more than anyone. Right, then the premise is if he hasn't been raised from the dead. And then Paul gives kind of the first YOLO statement in history. You know, you only live once in 32. He says if the dead are not raised, and let us eat and drink for tomorrow we die. And so Paul himself, in First Corinthians 15, rests all of Christianity on the fact of Jesus being raised from the dead. And it says, if it didn't happen, then we might as well just go do what we want to do, because none of this matters. 

0:08:50 - Melody

Yeah, if that didn't happen, nothing happened, right. 

0:08:52 - Eric

Yeah, being able to defend why you believe what you believe, you know, on all accounts matters, but one of the most pertinent apologetics or defenses that we could give would be for the resurrection, because it's what distinguishes Christianity from every other religion that has ever been known to man. You know there's a lot of good people, to the world standards, that have lived. You know a lot of these other religions. You know Buddha, Muhammad. You know these guys, the head of Buddhism and Hinduism and Islam. All of them have died. None of them have come back. They talk about nirvana and all this other stuff, but Jesus is the one that came back. Paul's saying is that if Jesus has been raised from the dead, then that's a game changer. Yeah, it changes everything. 

0:09:32 - Candi

So what do you say to people who are older in their Christian faith? I know myself I'm near and 40. I've grown up surrounded by Christianity for many years, I mean since I was just a little little girl. But there are still some things that, yes, I know why I believe what I believe. But trying to argue in Christian love, of course to somebody about why they're wrong, like that, is still hard for me because I do fear. Well, what if I don't get exactly something right? Or what if they ask me a question I may not know the exact answer to, Would you recommend, like every Christian, going to some form of class or maybe church offering apologetic classes? 

0:10:18 - Eric

Well, I'd say the start would be and this is not to be funny or even sarcastic, but the start would be is just to read your bible. A majority of professing Christ followers, Christians, don't read their bible. A majority of, you know, American Christians are biblically illiterate. You know, there is the, the formal discipline of apologetics, and this is what I've been trained in, what you would call an academically trained apologist or a professionally trained apologist. There is room for that, right, but those are a whole bunch of disciplines that you got to go to school for because, unless you just naturally pick up things like philosophical theology or metaphysics or axiology, absolutely, absolutely right. 

0:10:55 - Melody

Who doesn't? I made A's in all that right. 

0:10:59 - Eric

I didn't. But the point being is that sometimes what we think of when we think of apologetics is that Right? Well, I can't know everything there is and I don't know all the stuff. I'm not an academic or I'm not, and that's not the point. Right? The point is, at the end of the day, is what Peter says again, like always be ready to give a defense, apologia, always be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within you. Really, it's being able to just, it's starting with just reading what the Bible says, like being able to say when I've engaged with atheists, you know they'll want to take me to passages in the Old Testament and they'll say see, you know, the God you claim to be, the living God, is a genocidal God, right he's? He was OK with killing women and children. He was. 

0:11:40 - Candi

OK with. 

0:11:41 - Eric

And I'll ask him, I'll say hey, listen, you know there's no doubt that's a difficult topic, but do you believe that the Bible is true? To which they said well, absolutely not. Well, the first thing is is that if you don't believe the Bible is true, then you can't hold it against me as evidence for your argument because you don't believe it's true. And we don't use false things to argue truth, right. And the second thing I'll do immediately. But here's what we can talk about. 

Let's talk about the resurrection, because if the resurrection is true, then that changes everything and we can go back and talk about the difficult passages in Scripture, but we need to start with the resurrection. You know, really, I mean it starts with just reading your Bible. I mean that's come in our academic systems, which is not necessarily a negative thing. A lot of great things that have come out of that. But one of the things we've brought into it that is not a good thing from a Christianity perspective is that Christianity is highly relational and it's not about, you know, just walking up to somebody and telling them why they're wrong. That doesn't work for anybody right. 

If your husband walks in the house and how he opens up the conversation is let me tell you why you're wrong. That doesn't go over well right. And even if you're in a relationship with him, right. The reality is that the first thing is that looking at people as actual people who are in need of a savior and are in need of the hope that we have in Christ, first and foremost, more so than just somebody that we're going to try to check a box in to share our faith and tell them we're wrong the second thing would be that I would tell people is not only start reading your Bible, but actually start sharing your faith. Nine out of 10 professing Christians in America have admitted in studies that they will never share their faith, nor do they have intentions to. There's a bigger problem there. Because that's sinful, we're commanded to share our faith. 

0:13:35 - Melody

I was starting to say God's word tells us to go. Ye, therefore, we're commanded to share our faith. We're commanded. 

0:13:42 - Eric

Yeah, William Lane Craig is a very prominent apologist. He wrote a book called A Reasonable Faith which is a very powerful book in apologetics. After he writes on all of these different arguments and apologetics that you need to be familiar with if you're going to do it academically, he gets to the very end and he says this he says you can learn all these arguments, you can be an academic, and I'm paraphrasing. He says but at the end of the day he said the greatest apologetic you'll ever be able to provide is a changed life. And he said no one can argue with you about your personal experience because it's personal. 

0:14:16 - Candi

It's true. 

0:14:17 - Eric

What they can argue with is whenever you claim that Jesus has changed my life and they've known you long enough to know that's not true. The problem is and I'm in this pool, so this is not me pointing the finger Don't point the finger if you've got three pointed back at you. Problem is is that for many in the United States, specifically in our context, their problem isn't with Jesus. The problem is with those who claim they follow him, because many of those who claim they follow him don't exhibit a changed life. That's the biggest difference maker. 

People want what seems to work, and so whenever people who are in a broken marriage see a marriage that's reconciled, and when they ask them, you know what happened, you know the answer is something along the lines of you know Jesus right, or or a Christian value, or or whatever the case is. But whenever they're dealing with depression or when they're dealing with grief, right, whenever we handle things differently than other people are handling them, whenever we are, you know, in the sports world, for example, whenever we're helping people up off the ground, when we're one of the competitors and we're picking people up off the ground and we're encouraging them and telling them man, that was a great shot and that was a great play and they're beating us while they do it. People take notice because it's different, people take notice because it's different. 

People take notice when there's a joy that they're not experiencing right. Maybe they have it all. You don't really have anything, but you seem abundantly more happy and more joyful than they do. People take notice of that stuff, and so, from the apologetic perspective, you don't have to have all the academics. Again, there is a place for that, because the ivory tower is definitely influential in our society and in our culture, and so it helps to have people at an upper level be able to argue these things academically. But from just an everyday walking with Christ, the greatest apologetic we can provide is just a changed life. 

0:15:58 - Melody

And, like you said, that's a problem, because now, honestly, y'all, I can't tell a lot of difference between the Christian and the world, even in the church. 

0:16:07 - Eric

Yeah, absolutely. 

0:16:08 - Melody

We got some work to do, we got some things to be thinking about and praying through and I think, Candi, you and I were talking about this the things that we listen to, the things that we watch on TV, the things that we put in here, I have just been astounded by Yet, oh, I'm a follower of Jesus but I'm going to watch trash and listen to filth. I know that's kind of a minimal statement there, but it's so true it's almost epidemic-like in our churches. And so when the world sees that, they're going to say, well, they're no different than. 

I am, so why do I have to believe? 

0:16:44 - Eric

I mean, there's definitely that, but I think it's also just the idea of how we're teaching people and how we interact with the things we disagree with. The world interacts with things they disagree with in a very hateful way. Christianity shouldn't. 

0:16:59 - Melody

And we've seen that so much in the last few years. 

0:17:02 - Eric

You know, and we try to justify it. Well, I'm not going to stand to the side, you know, while this sin is taking place. I'm going to attack it head on, and you know. Ok, but the problem is that you're not consistent, because I've watched you stand to the side for a lot of the sin taking place in your church, that you've never taken a stand for what we typically do, and this is where faith comes in, this is where we have to work on this. This is a discipleship moment, right? We typically react to the things that we are most scared of or uncomfortable with the greatest adversity, and this is really what it comes down to, that the world. 

The reason why the world is okay with Jesus but not okay with a lot of the people who profess they follow Jesus is because we're hypocrites A lot of times. When you say that you know professing Christians, well, of course I am like I'm not Jesus, like I can't, I can't be perfect, and so I'm. I'm automatically going to be a hypocrite, right, and that's usually the excuse that's given, and there's some truth to that right. We're never going to be Jesus. That's what we're trying to. We're trying to become like him and we should be becoming like him, like I should look more like Jesus today than I did 21 years ago when I first became a Christ follower. 

Right, but that's not what biblical hypocrisy is. That's not what the world's looking at. Nobody in the world thinks you should be Jesus Nobody. Biblical hypocrisy is whenever we sin willingly and then give ourselves the grace and mercy that comes through the cross and the resurrection and then walk in that power, but then we turn around and we look at the world and the same exact sins that they're doing, that we are doing. We condemn them and cast judgment and refuse to extend grace and mercy to them, and so what they see in this a lot of times happens at home. Home is the most influential small group you'll ever have. 

0:18:40 - Candi

That's true. Yeah, it's the family is. 

0:18:41 - Eric

God's original design for ever have. That's true. Yeah, that is. The family is God's original design for small groups. That's right. And that's where the most influence happens Right. And whenever I've talked with churches before and tried to work with them, help them with student ministry, specifically, but other things is that, hey, most of what's influencing your kids and your students has already happened well before they showed up at your doors and so and you're not going to out influence parents- it's just not going to happen. 

So you should partner with parents and you should invest in parents, yes, and let the parents become what God intended for them to be the primary disciple makers. It's the idea that whenever kids, when they see mom and dad act one way at church and then they see them act another way at home and this is not the idea of mom and dad, you know they get in a fight. All Christians have intense fellowship and if they say that's not true, then I would challenge them on their line or their relationships in serious jeopardy. 

People who love each other and trust each other get in arguments. 

0:19:41 - Candi

Right, Some good ones too. 

0:19:43 - Eric

We disagree right, because we're sinners. Yes, right, and sometimes the argument's justified because we're standing on a moral principle where the other person isn't and we have to have this engagement. Sometimes it's because we're pitching a fit as an adult, because we didn't get our way and we're wrong. But anyways, the point being is that you know, kids see whether we really believe. 

0:20:03 - Melody

Oh, yeah, and they're watching to what we're saying, if you think, and small children watch early. 

0:20:08 - Eric

Absolutely, and the thing isn't that and this is this is neat and I learned this a long time ago and I'm thankful I learned it a long time ago, just in my own experience with walking with Christ is the beauty of the gospel is that I don't have to be perfect. I don't have to be perfect. I don't have to get being a father perfect. I don't have to get being a husband perfect, right. My faith is not demonstrated in me having it all figured out and fixed. My faith is demonstrated primarily whenever I mess it up and I admit that and ask for forgiveness. 

0:20:36 - Melody

I've started to just say I think the umbrella over all of that is repentance and I think that that is something that my son-in-law, Pastor Ben, when he was at our church for seven years, really led our church down that road of the importance of repentance. It is the difference maker, that's right. I don't see a lot of that anymore. 

0:20:59 - Eric

Yeah, and you know, I would say the reason for it is because there's a lack of humility in a lot of our churches. It takes humility to ask for forgiveness, right? So I have a 14 year old daughter and I've got an 11 year old daughter. 

0:21:14 - Melody

I'm sorry. 

0:21:18 - Eric

I've got Wait, wait, I've got 2 8-month-old twins. Oh, yeah. You know, one of the most powerful things that I can do in my house to demonstrate faith to my children, that man, I really believe this is first and foremost. When we're addressing a problem or we're addressing some type of situation or issue, we address it from a biblical perspective. 

0:21:39 - Candi

Yes. 

0:21:40 - Eric

Well, honey, what does? What does the Bible say about this? 

0:21:42 - Candi

That's hard when you're mad. It is hard when you're mad, that's hard. 

0:21:45 - Eric

But that's why it's called faith. 

0:21:46 - Candi

Right. 

0:21:47 - Eric

Right, that's why discipleship is so necessary in the church, because it is hard, right. Look at what you're teaching, that's right. Oh yeah, you're demonstrating. Because the question OK, well, what does the Bible say about this? Right? 

0:22:02 - Melody

Yeah, not what. I think that's right. What does God say? And? 

0:22:05 - Eric

here's the. Here's the key, though. Whenever I make the mistake and I've been a parent long enough, and anyone's been a parent for more than maybe, probably six months, probably not even that long learns really quickly that man, this parenting thing ain't no joke, right. Parenting's hard and you're going to blow it a lot. You're going to make a ton of mistakes, right? 

One of the most powerful things I can do to exhibit faith in my household, specifically to my children, is that, whenever I blow it, admitting to them that I've blown it and asking them to forgive me. Yeah, right, and now that takes humility. It does. I'm almost 42 years old. I've been walking with Christ I said 21 earlier, I think it's actually closer to 23 or 24 years been walking with Christ I said 21 earlier, I think it's actually closer to 23 or 24 years. It takes a lot of humility to sit down to my 14-year-old and say you know, Kinsley, I made a mistake. That's not how we're supposed to act and I was wrong, you know. Will you forgive me? Yeah, but those four words are hard, absolutely right, but they're very powerful words. Yes, it's a. Robby Gallaty says it this way. He says that you can choose humility, or he said you can have humility or you can have humiliation. He said the difference between the two is that one you can choose. The other one is a consequence of the lack of the other. 

0:23:09 - Melody

And I've done both Absolutely Right, and it's a growing process. 

0:23:13 - Eric

So that's, that's the point of you know, discipleship is that we're. 

We're growing in our faith. I think that we've been led to believe, wrongly, that you know we have to present this package that's just perfectly fit and perfectly squared. You know, we come to church and everything's great in our family, Everything's great in our marriage, man, you just we couldn't be doing any better than we are. And you know, the problem is is that we find out five years later that there was a problem in the marriage and that if we could have stepped in five years ago, we probably could have helped save a family. 

0:23:44 - Melody

Yeah, right, because what you saw on Facebook wasn't true. 

0:23:47 - Eric

It's not true? Yeah, so, but I think a lot of that's because we one, we misplace or we forget the primacy of mercy and grace in Christianity, which makes it so much different. Because of grace, I'm not defined by my, my different. Because of grace, I'm not defined by my, my failures. Because of mercy, I'm not held accountable the extent I should be comes down to, you know, because of what Jesus did on the cross, I'm not held accountable the way I should be for my sins, because Jesus took them for me. 

Because of the resurrection, there's this grace, right, you can think about it from an acronym perspective. You know God's riches at Christ's expense. Because of the resurrection, I'm given the power to overcome my sins and there's this idea of in the body of Christ that I shouldn't have to try to present to you that I'm perfect one, because both of you know that's not true. Student ministry and kids ministry is one of the greatest places to work if you want to find out what families are really doing in churches, because the kids bring a lot of prayer requests. 

0:24:46 - Melody

Oh yeah, I've taught a lot of children, yeah, and I know a lot of things. 

0:24:51 - Eric

But just think of the damage that we're doing to our to our families and to our kids. Whenever we we have what we have going on at home, we have our mistakes, we have our arguments, we have various things. Then we come to church and we present a different narrative and our kids are watching this. At some point kids are going to start moving into their own thinking. And when they start moving into their own thinking, it's not that they think that necessarily, at least immediately, that this faith is erroneous or false, it's that they start thinking it's just not applicable outside of Sunday. Yeah, and that's just the beginning. And then you move them to college where there's propaganda. 

0:25:28 - Melody

They're so confused. 

0:25:29 - Eric

You know atheistic, you know secular principles and things, Differences, and watch this. The difference is is that a lot of people who are nonbelievers, who don't profess Christianity as a faith, maybe they're atheists or they're secular humanists, it's pretty much the same thing. Whatever the case may be, a lot of them are actually willing to die for their beliefs. A lot of them are actually willing to take it on the chin and lose something over what they believe. And here's another thing they're also willing to bring these people into the fold and love them in a way that the church wouldn't Right. I know people personally. When they were struggling with you know some moral confusion. Where they found refuge was not in the body of Christ. That's where they found discouragement and exclusion, and judgment and judgment and all of these other things. 

It was the other crowd that embraced them. 

0:26:22 - Candi

Open arms yeah. 

0:26:23 - Eric

Right and, by some of their own testimony, didn't embrace them, immediately endorse, but basically, hey, we can kind of understand. Like you know, you're welcome here while you try to figure this out. Naturally, it's not confusing why they ended up where they were Right. Yeah, oh, absolutely right. It's not confusing why they ended up where they were oh, absolutely right. And I think what's the big issue, though, church wise, is that the very place we should be able to go to find refuge in the midst of our sin and difficulty is usually the place that we're excluded from and judged, which is ironic to me because you know, as a pastor, you know for 21 years, like I know, a lot of the real stories taking place, and it always amuses me and amazes me whenever I hear the judgment being extended by some people and it's like, really, that's really what you're going to do, right here. 

0:27:09 - Melody

And yes it is. I've said that Christians will eat their own. I feel like that we have done more damage with our faith than we've done good, a lot of times because of that very thing. 

0:27:20 - Eric

Well, I want to clarify, because I want to be very clear, that there's a difference between judgment and accountability. 

0:27:25 - Melody

Yes. 

0:27:26 - Eric

Christians should absolutely hold each other accountable. 

0:27:28 - Melody

Yes. 

0:27:28 - Eric

Right. Sin is sin. We should hold each other accountable. And a lot of times, people, you can't judge me. That's just not true. I can't judge your salvation. That is God and God alone. But as a brother in Christ, if you profess faith in Christ, I absolutely can judge your works and start distinguishing like, hey, that's not what we do, but it has to be. You know, truth spoken in love. I've been at my church now, for I guess I'm in my 16th year. You know there's several things that I'm known for just because I've been there for so long. One of them is I love you, but you don't mind confronting someone. 

No, it's not my favorite thing to do, but I don't mind being that person Because. 

0:28:03 - Melody

I feel like church discipline has gone by the wayside. 

0:28:06 - Eric

It has. 

0:28:07 - Melody

In the church I'm talking about? 

0:28:08 - Eric

Yeah, no, absolutely it has, and that's part of our problem.

0:28:11 - Melody

So, eric, have you had a situation where you've had to do that and it went not well? And then have you had a situation where you had to confront, and it went well. Have you dealt with both sides of that in your ministry? 

0:28:25 - Eric

Yes, and unfortunately, what happens most often is that people just leave the church, which is unfortunate, it's not. It's definitely not what we want to have happen. Yeah, a lot of times what takes place is you'll follow the process, you know you, wherever the offense was, you encourage the person with the offense first, like, yeah, you need to approach them, you talk to them yourself and then, if that doesn't go well, you know, then you can come back to us, then we'll go with you. That's biblical and we'll try to address it again if we're still unwilling to work through it or whatever. Whatever the case may be, then we'll bring some more witnesses, some more people in the church, leaders in the church this is not a gossip session to try to confront it head on again. If they're still unwilling to, you know, biblically speaking, it's at that moment that you do take it to the church as a whole and you bring it out in the open and let them know that this person is not in good standing until they repent of this. 

0:29:18 - Candi

Do you tell that person before you do that? 

0:29:21 - Eric

Absolutely, because the whole time you're using the Bible. Like here's the process. 

0:29:26 - Melody

Again, it's not what you think personally, it's what God says. 

0:29:28 - Eric

Well, and that's the power of this is why inerrancy and infallibility, the fact of the Bible not having error and not being able to err, is so valuable. It's so important because, melody, if you and I have a disagreement as a brother and sister in Christ, the only standard that we have that can help us both through this. Is the Bible right, and it simply comes down to who's right or who's wrong? Or are we both looking at this half right and half wrong? And how do we work through this from a discipleship perspective? You know, we should be training people and teaching people that it's OK to be wrong. 

The point in all of this is to magnify Christ, and if I'm wrong, that doesn't magnify Christ, and so we should want to correct that. The problem is that that's not what we do typically, and so, unfortunately, what normally happens is normally there's a blow up. You're not going to judge me. How dare you judge me? Some slurs are thrown which is always interesting as a Christ follower slurring another Christ follower Then usually they leave church and then they go around town and they decide to slander the church Right and which you know does wonders for the cause of Christ and the sake of the world. 

But there's also the moments, which are always sweet, that you have the people who respond in humility, because sometimes there is this reality that sometimes they didn't know because they were never taught right, they were never told. There's no excuse from that in God's perspective because, like I gave you my word, you could say it's kind of like an honest mistake and as soon as it's brought to the forefront they humble themselves and they change the path, they repent, and usually what happens at that point is that we see, almost like we see, a person's heart just ignited on fire. It is an absolute, just transformation because it creates a hunger. And what else have I been told? That's not necessarily. 

0:31:21 - Melody

Sometimes that can start a revival in a church. 

0:31:23 - Eric

Absolutely. 

0:31:24 - Announcer 1

Thanks for listening to the Quirks, Bumps and Bruises Podcast with Candi and Melody. If you enjoyed the show, please take a moment to subscribe, rate, and share the podcast. You can learn more at joyFM.org. 

0:31:41 - Announcer 2

Try Peas and Carrots Podcast for more encouragement. Brian and Kayla share life from their piece of the vegetable patch. Expect to laugh, find common ground, and hear stories you can't wait to share. It's a podcast about doing life together, growing in Christ together, and learning to laugh no matter what comes your way. Search Peas and Carrots Podcast wherever you listen to podcasts today.