More Than Medicine
More Than Medicine
Brain Death Review
Hannah Miller and Dr. Jackson review the brain death interview with Dr. Doyen Nguyen. After a brief recap of the interview, Hannah and Dr. Jackson discuss the importance of changing definitions in history. They also cover what the central bioethical issue is facing families dealing with an injured family member. Dr. Jackson shares two stories that help us to develop our thinking on this topic. How should we think about this issue as Christians? Listen to today's podcast and find out.
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Welcome to More Than Medicine, where Jesus is more than enough for the ills that plague our culture and our country. Hosted by author and physician, dr Robert Jackson, and his wife Carlotta and daughter Hannah Miller. So listen up, because the doctor is in.
Speaker 2:Welcome to More Than Medicine. I'm your host, dr Robert Jackson, bringing to you biblical insights and stories from the country doctor's rusty, dusty scrapbook. Well, I am compelled to bring to you a follow-up discussion regarding the interview that was held last week with Dr Doyen Nguyen regarding brain death. That whole discussion sparked a great deal of feedback from my listeners, so today I have in the studio with me my lovely daughter, hannah Miller, and she's going to interview me regarding that entire discussion last week. So, ms Hannah, welcome to More Than Medicine.
Speaker 3:So, listeners, I've invited my dad in this week, dr Robert Jackson. He had a fascinating interview with Dr Nguyen. Tell me your name again, dad.
Speaker 2:Her name was Doyen D-O-Y-E-N, Doyen Nguyen, and Dr Nguyen was a pathologist, hematologist, pathologist for many years. She went back to school and became a bioethicist, Ethicist that's right, I remember. And her forte now is brain death.
Speaker 3:And it was a fascinating discussion. So, listeners, if you've not heard that interview, go back. Dad's podcast is More Than Medicine. You can find it wherever you get this podcast. Give it a listen.
Speaker 3:But we're going to do a little bit of a recap and we're going to expand upon the conversation because it kind of created a bit of a firestorm from his listeners and mine, because I had friends and listeners that I sent the interview to and I said you guys got to listen to this and I was like hold on to your booties. And they texted me back and they were like oh my, and they said I am so. And one of them was like I'm so looking forward to the follow up conversation you're going to have with your dad next week. And I was like wait a minute, I'm going to have a follow up conversation with my dad next week. So I was like so then we kind of gave me the idea and I was like you know what? You're right, we need to do this. So here I am and we're going to kind of talk about this, and not just because I know in the interview last week, which was fascinating you're coming strictly. It was coming strictly from a scientific, medical perspective.
Speaker 2:It was and we want to respond biblically to it. I read an article that she wrote two years ago and I've been, I've been sitting on it and meditating on it and honestly, it has disturbed me for two years. And finally I just said I've got to do a podcast about this whole issue of brain death. So I called her and actually she lives in Portugal and she immediately responded and said she would be delighted to do the podcast.
Speaker 3:And so, and when I talked to her, she is such a delightful lady and a little bit of a firecracker so you might have to turn your your audio speed on half speed. She was a little fast for the layperson He'll follow.
Speaker 2:She is full of information and and she's very technical and very medical, medically technical, I put it that way but she's also full of of bioethical, technical information, all about brain death. Now here. Now, here's the upshot.
Speaker 2:For 30 years, the organ transplant industry and the American Association of Neurologists have been gradually evolving the definition of brain death. Now, when I went to medical school, I was often called to especially in residency to the bedside of people who had died and my responsibility was to listen to their heart and lungs to certify that there was no spontaneous respiration, no spontaneous heartbeat, and if there were none, and they were beyond the point of resuscitation, then I would declare them legally dead. And that was routine. But Over time, now the American Association of Neurologists are trying to certify people who are brain dead or brain damaged, I should say, as being legally dead.
Speaker 2:Now, why would they want to do that? Well, it's for one reason, and one reason only To cause these patients who are brain damaged to be declared dead when they're not actually dead, so that their organs can be harvested. Now, understand this when a patient's heart and lungs cease to function, all of their internal organs begin to deteriorate immediately and there's a mad rush to harvest those organs and in fact those organs will usually only last three to six months when transplanted. If the heart and lungs cease to function and then those organs are transplanted, they usually only last three to six months. But if someone is comatose and their organs are harvested, they may last for years after being transplanted.
Speaker 3:So people are beginning to see the dilemma here. Yes exactly or quote unquote, the dilemma. For some of us it's a pretty clear cut how this needs to be approached, but we do understand the angst and see the angst here that is being put in front of these medical professionals.
Speaker 2:And not just the medical professionals, but the families of patients who are in the hospital with varying degrees of brain damage. Now, some people are obviously patients, I mean are brain damaged beyond the point of any kind of return. But then they're varying degrees of brain damage and that's where you get into a real serious gray zone and that's why the evolving definition of brain damage or brain death or being comatose, has come into such an evolutionary change over 30 years of time. And the reason is is to benefit the organ transplant industry. Now, when I say, when I say the industry, what I mean is the recipients, the recipients of these organs, the patients who are waiting, waiting in line, sometimes for years, to receive a kidney or a liver or a heart.
Speaker 2:And but here you have to hear me, hear me clearly, and this is what Dr Nguyen said no matter what the charitable what's the word to phrase that she used the charitable motive may be on the surface. If there is an evil ulterior below the surface, an ulterior motive below the surface, then it cannot, it cannot sanctify that. The charitable motive on the surface cannot be sanctified by any kind of ulterior motive below the surface. You see what I'm saying.
Speaker 3:They're almost like the ends don't justify the means, they don't.
Speaker 2:They don't, they really don't, and so it's a very sticky wicket that we wander into, because we all know folks changing definitions.
Speaker 3:Right, we all know folks in that scenario who we've got a personal friend who's waiting on a kidney. I knew a gal who, two years ago, was waiting on a heart and she was an adult woman and, you know, had had a heart issues all of her life, born with a heart defect, had known at birth she was going to eventually need a heart transplant and grew into adulthood and they finally came to her and said you're going to, you got to do this, and it's got to be sooner versus later. Now We've reached that point and so she had. She waited more years to finally be able to receive one, and so so we all have in our mind those folks, and so that's what makes this for us personally. You know it's hard. It's hard to wrestle with this emotionally because we're all we're charitable people. Yeah, you know, the vast majority of the people listening to this podcast they're. They are kind, generous folks and Americans, by and large, are generous people.
Speaker 2:Yeah that's right, but here it is. Here's the bottom line. It's a sanctity of human life issue, ms Hannah, because every one of those patients that's lying in a hospital bed that has some degree of brain damage is a human being, created in the image of God. The image of God is stamped on their physical being, on their physical person, and if their vital organs are taken away from them before they are truly physically dead, then that is Not acceptable. It is not acceptable for them to have their organs removed from their physical body before the time of true death, when their heart and lungs cease to function. And Brain death is not true death. We have to understand that, no matter how you change the definition, brain death is not true Death.
Speaker 2:Now let's talk about definitions and why this is so important. For example, your listeners and my listeners know that I've been involved in the pro-life movement for many years and Definitions are very important in the pro-life movement. Now, for example, a hundred plus years ago, life was deemed to begin at quickening. Quickening is when the mother first feels that little baby move in the mother's womb, and that occurs around 20 weeks. So life was thought to have begun at 20 weeks. Well, we know that's not true. We know that life begins at conception, but many years ago life was thought to begin at 20 weeks, at quickening. Well, that was the definition. Well, now we move forward in time and we realize that that there's a definition of viability. Life begins at viability. Well, when was viability? Well, for a long time it was around 30 weeks, 31 or 32 weeks. Well, because of technology, medical technology, viability keeps Moving earlier and earlier. And if a baby is born prematurely in a major city hospital with a neonatal intensive care unit, viability is now 18 or 19 Weeks of gestation. So that definition keeps changing.
Speaker 2:Well, definitions are important. Now we have legislation that says that a baby's life Can't be taken by an abortion procedure if there's a heartbeat. The definition of live now is when there's a heartbeat that can be detected with an ultrasound. At eight weeks of life We'll. Is the image of God stamped on that unborn baby at eight weeks, or at 18 or 19 weeks, or at 31 weeks or at 20 weeks? No, the issue is not how many weeks the baby is. The issue is is this image of God stamped on that little baby's physical life? The issue is the sanctity of life, the image of God, not how many weeks of gestation.
Speaker 3:Well, according to God's word, it's, you know, we are made in His image. What point are we made? You know, when we think about you know we are making something. There's a whole process of making, but when it starts, that's when it's made, you know, and that's when things begin. And I think that we have to go back to you know, you and I take a from conception perspective on being made in the image of God and needing to protect life right from the beginning and from the moment of conception, because that's when somebody is made and that's when it has everything it needs to be a human being and grow into a baby, and grow into a child and a toddler and a teenager and an adult. And so that's the perspective that you and I take. And it's very interesting to me. And not to totally derail you, but you know this whole conversation about evolving definitions. What are other things in our culture right now that are have evolving definitions? What about sex and gender? You know, all of a sudden, nobody, nobody questioned what a man was.
Speaker 1:Nobody knows what a man for a woman is.
Speaker 3:Yeah, nobody questioned what a man was or a woman was 20 years ago and then now, all of a sudden, you have the them, they Zizi. You know, it's just bizarre land for lack of a better word.
Speaker 2:You don't even know what bathroom you go into anymore.
Speaker 3:No, and it's just silliness, you know, to those of us, yes, to those of us who are have a little bit of a rationality about us, I think so. But what you know and not to totally devolve this into a political conversation, but what political movement has its one huge part of it is to change definitions in the language and the meaning behind things, and then the long-term fruit of that is to destruction and turn things on its head. It's Marxism, folks.
Speaker 3:And that's what they're trying to do it to sex, they try to do it to gender, they try to do it to life, and now they're doing it to death. The basic tenets of what makes us human beings, gives us purpose, all of these things, what makes us up to be who and what we are, our gender, our sexuality, our life and death, and all of these things, whether you're a man or a woman, they're trying to change the definitions of, and they've had the long game in mind. And that's where we are so bad is playing the long game is. They've had this long game and what's the end result? Well, I think it dehumanizes all of us in one stage of life or another.
Speaker 2:And the end result of almost all of these things is death. Abortion the end result is death.
Speaker 2:And the end result of changing the definition of life. When what is life is death, and you see, these patients who are in the hospital, who are acolytos, the end result of harvesting their organs is the death of that individual. Now let me let me give you two stories. One story is a friend of mine who emailed me just this week after hearing our podcast to tell about a time when her husband had an injury, a serious injury, and it included a brain injury, and from the moment they were in the hospital, the South Carolina OPA Oregon Procurement Association began to speak to her immediately about harvesting his organs and began to speak to her about making something good come out of such a terrible tragedy.
Speaker 3:Praying upon her sense of charity and generosity. That's right.
Speaker 2:Making something good come out of a terrible tragedy in their life. And for 10 days they came to her multiple times a day beseeching her to donate his organs, and she kept putting them off and said, no, no, this is premature, this is too early. And she said, every person in the ICU, from the doctors to the nurses to the representatives of the SCOPA, came to her and begged her to make a decision and to hasten making a decision. And then guess what? Oh, I think it was day 10 or day 12. I can't remember exactly. Her husband woke up. Her husband woke up and then he went through a long rehabilitation and now he's alive and back to work and he survived that event. And yet they were trying to bully her into making a decision to donate his organs. And she said, after he woke up, none of them would look her in the eyes and, more than that, none of them were happy for her that he woke up and eventually survived.
Speaker 2:Now this whole story should give all of us pause. This whole story should cause all of us to stop and think and realize that there should never be a hastening to make these kinds of decisions. And then another lady emailed me this very week and told me about the time when her son a 20 year old son 2022, was in an automobile accident serious brain damage and within 24 hours they went from motor vehicle accident to organ donation. And she said her head was spinning. And she said we didn't even know what we were doing. They all happened so fast. And she said we have had eternal regrets over that whole incident and she said one of the most horrible experiences of our whole life and she said it didn't turn a tragedy into a charitable thing for us at all because we've had regrets.
Speaker 3:Well, and if I remember correctly, when we were talking before about this very situation, her words that just so stuck with me in conclusion of all of that was that it had become abundantly clear to her that his organs were more valuable than his life.
Speaker 3:That's what she said exactly those were her exact words. And you take that and you juxtapose that as well with this other patient story or listener story that you were talking about and her husband and the pestering and the clamoring that they inflicted upon her and the unenthusiasm that they had upon his resurrection yeah, yeah, and how anti-climactic that was for them. And you realize they were disappointed. Why? Because their feelings were exactly what the second lady was able to communicate His organs, the organs of these individuals were more valuable than their lives, and that should never be. That should never be.
Speaker 2:And it shows you how money driven the organ transplant industry is and how little they value the sanctity of human life. And that's why I told you in the very beginning this whole issue is a sanctity of human life issue and our culture has forgotten that the image of God is stamped on every one of these patients that's lying in an ICU with some measure of brain injury.
Speaker 3:Well, because in this, think about it more broadly. Because if we're gonna say, as you said, this is a sanctity of human life, this is a made in the image of God, and if you try to say, well, being made in the image of God, or the sanctity of life of starts at any point other than conception, then you begin to have to walk it back. You're constantly redefining that, you're gonna be constantly caught in it. Well, what about folks who you know their life is valuable, or they're made in the image of God, or their sanctity of life is important until they're brain dead or until they're tereshavo?
Speaker 2:Or until they're handicapped.
Speaker 3:Exactly. I mean, you remember the case, it was tereshavo is that right yeah? In Florida. Yeah, her life was not important. Why? I mean?
Speaker 2:to them she's she couldn't contribute anymore.
Speaker 3:Yes, she couldn't Quality what was it and she's costing money. Yes, you know. And so then, all of a sudden, you're getting into all of these discussions and you're gonna have to address all of these things that become, well for one, unnecessarily complicated. Because, again, if your definition is, every life deserves living, because God's put it on this earth and it's made in His image at the moment of conception. And bam, all of those answers.
Speaker 2:They become irrelevant. Yeah, it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter anymore.
Speaker 3:It doesn't matter if they have Down syndrome, it doesn't matter if they're in a coma, it doesn't matter if they can't lift their own arms and feed their mouths and they have to have a G tube.
Speaker 2:They're not that old in people or got dementia.
Speaker 3:That's right. None of those things matter, because it's a human being and it's created in the image of God. That's right. And all of these things you know they dehumanize and I know you talked about earlier all of these things lead to death. These redefinitions, well, even the transgender stuff, leads ultimately to a lot of death for these young people.
Speaker 3:The rate of suicide by young people who embark on this and find them who, in destroy, mutilate their bodies, destroy themselves with all manner of hormones and drugs or embark on a lifestyle that's just full of degeneracy. The rate of suicide and depression and anxiety. It is not elevated. The psychologist wants you to believe that well, if you just celebrate that and you let them go and do that thing that they're wanting to do, the risk of suicide and their quality of life is really gonna improve. Well, the converse of that is drastically true. They live very depressed, anxious, unfulfilled lives that a lot of times end up down the road of suicide. And so to just further back up that, this redefinition of life, this when we don't have a sanctity of life, pro-life made in the image of God from conception. God is sovereign, he doesn't make mistakes. You're made exactly how he wants you to be right there. From that moment, then, all of these sticky wickets that we get caught in are no more.
Speaker 2:That's right.
Speaker 3:It becomes we've complicated something that God really made very simple.
Speaker 2:That's right, All right. Well, Ms Hannah, we're running out of time.
Speaker 3:I guess pre-usual.
Speaker 2:We've talked a lot and we've covered a lot of issues. Now, if you wanna hear this original discussion by Dr Nguyen go to more than medicine, it was broadcast on the 16th of March and I think you will find that a very challenging discussion and I hope you'll go back and take a listen to that.
Speaker 3:It will be in the show notes for my podcast. So this interview if you're listening to this and you're thinking you wanna on the Hannah Miller show and you want to listen to that, I will have the link for that in the show notes. You can just go to the description for the show and click on it and it'll pop up for you.
Speaker 2:All right. Well, you're listening to a combo show today. This is the Hannah Miller show and More Than Medicine. Hope you enjoyed it. We'll see you again next week.
Speaker 1:Thank you for listening to this edition of More Than Medicine. For more information about the Jackson Family Ministry, dr Jackson's books or to schedule a speaking engagement, go to their Facebook page, instagram or their webpage at JacksonFamilyMinistrycom. This podcast is produced by Bob Sloan Audio Production at bobsloancom.
