More Than Medicine
More Than Medicine
Exploring Christian Nationalism: Historical Context, Media Portrayals, and Civic Engagement with Dr. Robert Jackson and Arthur Hampton, Part One
Can a nation truly be Christian? Join Dr. Robert Jackson and special guest Arthur Hampton as they tackle the polarizing topic of Christian nationalism. Arthur, the Southeastern Regional Director of the John Birch Society, brings his extensive background in theology and philosophy to provide a fresh perspective. We'll dissect the varying definitions and origins of Christian nationalism, contrasting mainstream media's negative portrayal with the more nuanced views held by many Christians. Listen in as we explore historical and ideological foundations that contribute to this contentious debate, advocating for a balanced and informed understanding of the subject.
Discover how headlines from The New Yorker, Time Magazine, and others shape public perception of Christian nationalism, often depicting it in a negative light. We'll delve into what defines a Christian nation and how this concept compares to that of a Christian family. Historical context, including early American laws and a significant statement from Congress in 1854, will shed light on the distinction between the separation of church and state and the separation of God and state. We'll also discuss the importance of civic involvement for Christians, using biblical examples like Jesus and the woman caught in adultery to debunk common misconceptions. Get ready for an enlightening conversation that challenges the mainstream narrative and encourages active, informed participation in civic life.
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Welcome to More Than Medicine, where Jesus is more than enough for the ills that plague our culture and our country. Hosted by author and physician, dr Robert Jackson, and his wife Carlotta and daughter Hannah Miller. So listen up, because the doctor is in.
Speaker 2:Welcome to More Than Medicine. I'm your host, dr Robert Jackson, bringing to you biblical insights and stories from the country doctor's rusty, dusty scrapbook. Well, I'm delighted today to have as my guest Arthur Hampton, and our topic for the day is Christian nationalism, and if any of you have been paying any attention to talk shows or the media, you've heard that term bandied about and I've had to do a little bit of research myself to understand what people are meaning by the term Christian nationalism, and I've invited my good friend Arthur to come along and help us to understand more fully what that means. Now, arthur, tell my listening audience a little bit about yourself, a little bit about your training, and they'll understand why I'm inviting you on the program to talk about this very important topic.
Speaker 3:Well, my name is Art Hampton. I am the Southeastern Regional Director of the John Birch Society. Of all the good states between Tennessee to Florida, north and South Carolina and Georgia there. So I enjoy the Southeast and I was a pastor in Columbia, south Carolina, for a couple of years and my training is actually in theology and philosophy. I graduated from Fruitland Baptist Bible College with a degree in religion with a concentration in philosophy and I also got a degree from North Greenville University in Christian studies with a concentration in philosophy. And I'm actually working.
Speaker 2:if two degrees isn't enough, I'm working on my third at Southern Seminary in apologetics and philosophy as well, and it's a delight to talk to Arthur about all these issues, because he's a little bit of a brainiac. He knows these things very well and I love discussing these topics with him, so go ahead.
Speaker 3:I don't mean to interrupt, well and I mean the degrees helped a good bit. They introduced me to some things that I normally would not have looked at, but I've learned. Most of my stuff is just reading and studying on my own, almost like a monk. There was a time when I was single, I didn't have any kids, you know all that stuff, and so I would try to be jonathan edwards, reading, studying 13 hours a day, and I did that for a couple of years, or several years actually, but and so you know learning, how to learn. If you know how to learn, you can pretty well learn anything.
Speaker 3:That's right, and so just a love for God and theology and philosophy, and you know, getting out there and doing apologetics to provide a way to share the gospel.
Speaker 2:I understand that. Well, let's talk about this Christian nationalism. Now. I hear people talk about Christian nationalism in a pejorative kind of way, as if Christians are trying to take over the government and make a theocracy in America. And then I hear Christians talking about Christian nationalism as just you and me performing our civic duty and being involved in the political process as every citizen should, and it sounds like those are two extremes and is there a proper middle ground? And it's just confusing to the average citizen. So I'm going to ask you to kind of define terms and also start off by giving us a little bit about the origin of this whole Christian nationalism debate.
Speaker 3:So in recent history, the deep state, the left, the mainstream propaganda has been talking about Christian nationalism in a very ubiquitous way, a very negative way, and one of the things that I think that makes it so hard is because if you ask 10 people what a Christian nation is or what Christian nationalism is, you're going to get 20 different answers yeah, you will, you will. And so there's not really a definition of the term, but usually what happens is the left uses it in a derogatory sense. That's correct, and you really don't want to take the terminology from someone that doesn't hold to the position.
Speaker 2:That's correct.
Speaker 3:And so we can look at the people that identify as a Christian nationalist and talk about that, but let's go through the origin. But let's go through the origin. So it was started by the mainstream propaganda when Trump got to be president. Oh well, trump and his Christian nationalists. They just want to take over and make everything Christian.
Speaker 3:I know there was one lady on was it CNN, I think, or was it ABC. She said you know those Christian nationalists, they think our rights come from God. How dare they? I'm like, what do you think the founders meant when they meant unalienable rights? I mean, you know you get your rights from God. You don't get your rights from the civil government. You know, how dare they think that, oh my goodness. And so they're pushing this ideology to paint Christian nationalism in a bad light. And so the main crux of it is well, you Christians, you need to stay in your lane. You need to not worry about civil matters, you need to worry about church matters. And you had a podcast a little while back about that. It was really good. What was the pastor's name that Hitler had his house swatted and then blew a bomb up at his house? What?
Speaker 2:was that pastor's name? It wasn't Bonhoeffer, it was knee molar, knee molar, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3:So you know, um, if, if that was the ideology that knee molar had, you know he, he wouldn't have had his house raided and then bombs blew up in his house and stuff like that which would include the political process.
Speaker 2:And you know, if we're going to follow pietism, then basically the end result of pietism is that the salt always stays in the salt shaker. Yes, and Christians are never involved in the medical arena, the legal arena, the political arena. The Christian folks keep their influence within the four walls of the church, and that's exactly what the liberals and the progressives want us to do. As long as we keep our faith and the influence of our faith locked within the four walls of the church, then we will never purify the culture.
Speaker 2:We will never have any impact on the culture and the gospel influence will never get outside the four walls of the church, and that's exactly the end result of pietism.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it makes you basically an ineffectual Christian. You're just very you can't live it out all the way. I mean you just can't live it out all the way. I mean you just can't because the Bible pertains to all of life and godliness. That's right. If God speaks on all of life, then everything you do has to have him involved. But let's look at some of the things that the left is saying about Christian nationalism. This is why it's buzzing around. So Politico defines Christian nationalism. It says, and I quote Christian nationalists in America believe that the country was founded as a Christian nation and that Christian values should be prioritized throughout government and public life. End quote. Now I don't know of any Christian that doesn't believe that. I mean any conservative Christian that doesn't believe that. But this individual that wrote this article is painting that as a bad thing. I don't know if it's to scare Christians away or to just induce fear-mongering, but that's kind of what that thinking is.
Speaker 2:What's wrong with Christian values? What's wrong with the Ten Commandments? I mean, all laws are based on somebody's morality.
Speaker 3:Well, the last four. Nobody has a problem with Don't kill people, don't steal from people, don't sleep with their wife, don't covet their belongings. I mean, nobody has a problem with Don't kill people, don't steal from people, don't sleep with their wife, don't covet their belongings. Nobody has a problem with that.
Speaker 2:It's the first five laws that people have a problem with. That's exactly right.
Speaker 3:Here's the thing there is no dichotomy between the first five laws, or the first four or five laws and the last four or five laws. Either you've got to take them all or leave them all, and so I think most Christians would hold to those ideologies and they go in and say, well, it's just Trump supporters pushing this Christian nationalism. That's scary and that's how they're painting it. But we're here, we're neutral, and that's the myth of neutrality, because Christ said hey, you're either for me or against me, that's right.
Speaker 3:And it's funny because neutrality can only work in a Christian nation, or what we're living in, the coattails of a Christian nation. I would say Only then can you be neutral In any other civilization or any other nation. You can't do that. Go to a Muslim nation and try that. That ain't going to work. Go to a Hindu.
Speaker 1:Try that. That ain't going to work.
Speaker 3:But what's better than the law of God, the code of Hammurabi or Sharia law? I mean, take your pick. It's bad and worse. But the fact that Christians think that we know better than God of how to run a civil government is just—the pride to say that is baffling to me. I mean, look at what Christ said when you die you're going to face before, and he says to you depart from me, for I never knew you, you man of lawlessness. Now, what law is he talking about? He's not talking about man's law, he's talking about his law. You're lawless, and that's the whole thing of it. And so here's another headline. This is Yahoo News. Here's the headline, and I quote Christian nationalism a grave threat to America.
Speaker 3:White supremacy and Christian nationalism are evil, end quote. So what they're trying to do is tie in this white supremacy. This is a white man's religion that is just trying to start a Christian nation or to push Christian values, and that just ties into critical race theory. That's all that is. So what do you think about that? Christianity wasn't even in the West. First it was in Africa and Asia. First Jesus was a Jew. He wasn't even in the West. First it was in Africa and Asia. First Jesus was a Jew. He wasn't even white. I mean to say that is ludicrous.
Speaker 2:It is ludicrous, it is foolishness, and it's ignorant of the origin of Christianity.
Speaker 3:I think it has a lot to do with revisionist historians just trying to change history. I mean, it's just lines, basically what it is trying to change history.
Speaker 3:I mean it's just lines, basically what it is, but I mean Christianity has never been a white religion and so let's move on. So the Daily Montana an article by Kathy Young. She said that Hitler was a Christian nationalist. Let's quote him. Quote he Hitler encouraged kids in his German youth organizations to get their families to attend Sunday worship with them. Church attendance skyrocketed and pastors were thrilled when Hitler come to power. Tell that to Dietrich Bonhoeffer. I mean good night. What kind of world are we living in? I don't even know if I have words to say for that. I mean really.
Speaker 2:Ignorant of history is all that is.
Speaker 3:I have words to say, for that, I mean really Ignorant of history is all that is. And this is a woman that has a couple degrees, two or three degrees. That just shows you the state of the schools are in. It's just revisionist historians lying about history. I mean it just goes back to lying, I guess. But Young goes on. Christian nationalists want to bring America's church and state into one entity, just like Hitler did, and I'm deeply concerned about this cult-like movement. End quote I don't know about you, but I've never met any Christian that wants to merge church and state.
Speaker 2:Nope, nope, nope. You know, everybody that I know that's involved in the political process as a Christian, understands the importance of the separation of church and state. Now, that doesn't separate the state from morality, but we do understand the importance of the balance of powers and we understand that the church has a prophetic voice to speak truth to power, speaking truth to the government and to the authorities. But we understand that there has to be a separation between the two.
Speaker 3:And I think she's alluding to the atrocities committed by the Roman Catholic Church years ago, when they actually took the power from the state. And so you have three forms of government. You have way up four, really self-government, but also you have family government that God instituted. That's the first form of government that God instituted. That's the first form of government that God instituted. The second form of government is church government or temple government in the Old Testament. And then you have civil government. So these are three separate entities. So even in complete theocracy, in the Old Testament you see a separation of those entities, because Moses, yes, he was a prophet, but he was head of the state. Appoint judges, that's the state's responsibility. And then, who else did you have? You had Aaron. Aaron was over the priesthood, and so even then you had a separation of church and state, each sphere having its own sovereign thing. Now, do you think if Aaron did something wrong and he did Moses wasn't going to say something to him? Sure, he did. Well, he did Read the history book, read the Bible.
Speaker 2:Called him out.
Speaker 3:He did. Now let's look at that the other way around. If Moses slipped Aaron's right there, yeah, and in other cases, look at David and Nathan yeah, you are the man you need to repent and David wept because he knew what he did. And so you see that throughout history and her comment here about Hitler, that's just a bold-faced lie. They're preying on people that are ignorant of history is what they're doing. And, quite frankly, the state of the schools, I mean they don't know nothing or they don't know anything Excuse my Southern. They don't know nothing.
Speaker 1:That's even worse.
Speaker 3:Emphasis added. But here's another one that is from the new yorker. It's a headline. It says, and quote how christian is christian nationalism? Many americans who advocate it have little interest in religion and an aversion to american culture as it currently exists. What really defines this movement? End quote how Christian is Christian nationalism? I'm like, hmm, I had one person question me you know, how do you even define a Christian nation? I said, well, the same way you would define a Christian family.
Speaker 2:Yeah exactly.
Speaker 3:Well, I mean well, christian nation isn't in the Bible. Well, christian family isn't in the Bible either the term isn't. But you can read the Bible and figure out pretty quick what a Christian family looks like, what a Christian nation looks like. Here's a couple more. I'm going to run through these other ones. This is Time Magazine, the infamous Time Magazine. Quote three threats Christian nationalism poses to America end quote. Abc quote Christian nationalism threats to democracy end quote.
Speaker 3:Now, you and I know that we are not a democracy, but they throw that word around a good bit. We are a republic. When you say the pledge, you say it to the republic and there is a distinct difference between the two, and so it just. I mean, the way they're painting this out is ludicrous. Here's one that is interesting Politico in a poll said, and I quote Most Republicans support declaring the US as a Christian nation. Now, this poll was taken around the mid, I think, around 2015,. About 10 years ago, but still, that was 10 years ago. That wasn't too long ago, and it's interesting. They would paint that in the whole article. They're painting Christian nationalism in a bad light. Well, how dare you call us a Christian nation? I'm like, look at the history books folks. I mean, there was a reporter that asked Washington why they didn't put God in the Constitution and he said well, it was already in all the state constitutions.
Speaker 3:we didn't think we needed to repeat ourselves something to that effect, and with the exception of Rhode Island, that's very much true. But I mean, here's another one. In Congress, in 1854, this is the Journal of the House of Representatives stated, and I quote the great, vital and conservative element in our system is the belief that our people, in the pure doctrines and the divine truths of the gospel of Jesus Christ, end quote. That sounds pretty Christian to me. Yep, it does, doesn't it? And that was 1854. Congress declared that and most people say well, this is the Supreme Court. Well, the Supreme Court, don't? They have a sculpture of Moses at the top of the thing and he's holding two tablets at the top of the thing, and he's holding two tablets which is representative of the Ten Commandments.
Speaker 3:And everyone at the time when this nation was founded understood the basics of the law of God in all forms of government. I mean, our history shows it. You don't even have to read very much to figure out that we were indeed started as a Christian nation and the whole issue of separation of church and state was that we didn't have a state-run church like Rome, like the Archbishop of Canterbury, like that, and that's what the pilgrims fled from was the state church. Now, I do believe in the separation of church and state, but I don't believe in the separation of God and state and that is a distinct difference there. But if you look at the history of that terminology and this is not coming from me this conclusion is coming from scholars like Dr Joe Moorcraft. If you remember the Ten Commandment man in Alabama, chief Justice Roy Moore I think their quotes or opinions have a little bit more weight than mine. Those great men, but they both, I, I talked to them. Both of them said and others.
Speaker 3:The term religion back then could more correctly be interpreted today as denomination, because they assumed christian. I don't think back then that a mosque would be allowed in any of the colonies. I don't think back then a satanic temple would be erected or any satanic monuments would do that. I mean even the colony in Virginia. There was a colony that had problems with youth, and so they implemented the unruly child law. Now what does the Bible say? Do you have to do with the unruly children? Crime and punishment it's death.
Speaker 2:That's pretty harsh ain't it.
Speaker 3:Well, it's interesting If you look at the history of that colony. They had issues with them. They enacted that law, the unruly child law, and do you know how many children had to go to trial? None, Even the law of God is a deterrent for evil. Now to the person that says well, if we implement the biblical laws, everybody will be dead. We'll be killing everybody. No, you have to have due process. You have to have due process, and so there needs to be a court case and there needs to be two witnesses. If there's not two witnesses, he walks. There's none of this. There's no question of whether they did it or not. Two witnesses or he walks. And it's interesting, People try to use the woman caught in adultery as a way to subvert the law of God.
Speaker 3:But if you really know your Bible, Jesus, when he said he, without that sin, cast the first stone, was quoting Deuteronomy. I think it was Deuteronomy 17,. Was it 5 or 9? Deuteronomy 17-something. If you look at the court cases, the person that caught them in adultery has to cast the first stone. Now, you couldn't be a part of an execution or be a witness if you had committed that crime. So let's say you had committed adultery and there wasn't two witnesses. So you walk. Well, if you witnessed somebody else, you know you deserve death just as well as they do. You could not cast the first stone, which is what Christ quoted. He quoted the law of God. He, without that sin, cast the first stone.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 3:And so there you have it, the Old Testament being quoted by Jesus, and I can't believe people take that passage and try to use it to subvert the law of God. But the deep state is obviously propagating this narrative to intimidate Christians into not doing anything, to pacifism, pietism and scare people that aren't Christians into fearing Christians and they think there'll be some sort of false flag to democracy or patriotic Christians or anyone that opposes the edicts, leading toward this madness and lawlessness. Now, real quick, the Roman Catholic Church took the power of the state. That's wrong. Real quick. The Roman Catholic Church took the power of the state. That's wrong. On the liberal side you have them wanting for the state to take the power of the church, which is humanitarianism, helping the widows and stuff, and so you have to have that balance in there and if we get back to the Word of God, we'll have balance.
Speaker 2:Well, all right. Well, you're listening to More Than Medicine and my guest today is Arthur Hampton, and we're talking about this very delicate issue of Christian nationalism, and today we've talked about the origins and what the liberal media has been doing to define that issue. And we're going to wrap it up today, but we're going to come back again next week and we're going to talk further about Christian nationalism, and what we're going to do next week is we're going to talk about an appropriate definition and we're going to listen to authors who are defining that issue from a Christian perspective. So you're listening to More Than Medicine. If you like what you hear, we'd like you to follow, like, share or download. We'll be back again next week and may the Lord bless you. Real good.
Speaker 1:Thank you for listening to this edition of More Than Medicine. For more information about the Jackson Family Ministry, dr Jackson's books, or to schedule a speaking engagement, go to their Facebook page, instagram or their webpage at jacksonfamilyministrycom. This podcast is produced by Bob Sloan Audio Production at bobsloancom.
