Homeowners Be Aware

Why Our Homes Are Making Us Sick with Andrew Pace

• George Siegal • Season 2 • Episode 60

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November 22, 2022
60. Why Our Homes Are Making Us Sick


Homesick has a new meaning. There are a lot of things inside your home that could be making you ill. Andrew Pace explains how you don’t have to just live with it, there are things you can do to have an environmentally healthy house, and it costs much less than you might think.


Here are some important moments with Andrew from the podcast: 


At 4:06 What is the problem you have identified and what are you doing to make it better?


At 7:14 Are people willing to pay for an environmentally safer house?


At 14:32 What’s a reliable way to find out how toxic your house is?

  

Here are some ways to follow or contact Andrew:


Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/gdc_buildingforhealth/

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/greendesigncenter/

Twitter : https://twitter.com/greendzyncenter


 LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/andrewpace/

Website: https://www.thegreendesigncenter.com   
 


Important information from Homeowners Be Aware:

Here are ways you can follow me on-line:

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/homeownersbeaware/

Website: https://homeownersbeaware.com/

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/george-siegal/


If you'd like to reach me for any reason, here's the link to my contact form:

https://homeownersbeaware.com/contact

Here's the link to the trailer for the documentary film I'm making: Built to Last: Buyer Beware.

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Thanks for listening!

George Siegal:

I've done several podcasts where we discuss how poorly homes are built in this country and the questionable choices we make about where we build them, and then disasters happen and the homes get wiped out. Well, that's one aspect of what goes into your home, but there's a whole other area that we're going to talk about today that I haven't really talked about, and that's what goes inside your house. Because as I found out from my guest today, there are so many bad choices we make with what we put on the inside of our house, and those things can actually kill us or cause all kinds of health problems. We normally just don't think about them. My guest today is Andrew Pace. He's a healthy home concierge and the founder of the Green Design Center, a leading resource for homeowners and contractors looking to source products that are healthy and green. I'm George Siegal, and this is the Tell Us How to Make It Better podcast. Every week we introduce you to people who are working on real world problems and providing actual solutions. Tell Us How to Make it Better is partnering with The Readiness Lab, the home for podcasts, webinars, and training in the field of emergency and disaster services. Andrew, welcome. Thank you so much for coming on today.

Andrew Pace:

Well, thank you very much. I'm excited to be here with you.

George Siegal:

Every time I schedule you, and this isn't gonna run for a few weeks, but every time I schedule you, there's a hurricane in Tampa. So what is it you're bringing us, uh, bad weather,. Andrew Pace: That's right. Well, yeah, maybe send that warmth up to us though, because you know, here in Wisconsin it's supposed to be 28 degrees tomorrow. Wow. I, I, I think I'll take a hurricane over cold weather. I used to live in Detroit and, and it was a great place to live, but very cold in the winter. Yep. You know that for sure. I do. I know that very well. So, before we get started, I wanna ask you a couple questions, uh, for people who don't necessarily know you that well. Mm-hmm., tell me something about you that most people do not know?

Andrew Pace:

Oh, boy. So most people who are listening probably do not know that in my spare time, I am a certified scotch whiskey sommelier. Really? Yes. Yes. And so, you know, I I, I, the funny thing is I'm not a big drinker. Uh, it's just I love. I love stories. I love history. I love knowledge. And I, a good friend of mine was a, a really liked scotch and he got me into it. And, um, I like the nuances between different, um, styles and brands and so forth. And I just, I got invested into it. I, I, I cannot look at something and not dive deep into it. And so, Ended up going to Scotland a few times, getting my certifications. Um, and now I do mainly for, um, fundraising events. Uh, I do, uh, whiskey tasting events.

George Siegal:

Interesting. I've been to one for, uh, rum and I had no idea all the little nuances with rum. Right. With whiskey, don't you actually though have to have, have tasted it. Yeah, you can then tell people, you have to know more than just the stories.

Andrew Pace:

Yeah, of course. Yeah. And I do taste it. I mean, I guess to say is I'm not, you know, I don't go home at night and have a drink every night, you know? Uh, I have, whenever I, I'm having a whiskey, it's usually because I'm doing an event or I'm doing research for an event, which sounds like a horrible job. I know that's right. But somebody's gotta do it. George Siegal: Very cool. And then the other thing is, if, okay, you can have a meal with anybody living or dead. You get to sit down, have dinner, hang out and talk, who would you, who would you choose? Oh my. If I could have a meal living or day with anybody, you know, I have to say it, uh, Jesus Christ. I would love to know everything that I don't know. And, um, I hope someday to find out, but it would be nice to know I'm still living..

George Siegal:

Aim big. I'll see what I can do to to, to set that up for you. Thank you. But, um, that's gonna be tough. That's a big ask, . All right. Let's jump right into this. What is the problem that you have identified and tell us what you're doing to make it better?

Andrew Pace:

Allright, the problem I have identified is the fact that the way we build homes today, the way we live in homes today, is, uh, it leads to people not being able to heal themselves while they're living there. What I mean by that is we're inundated with thousands of chemicals throughout the day from the products that people put on their skin, perfumes, hairspray to the materials that we surround ourselves in with our, our offices and our building and our homes and so forth. But when we get, when we do get home, that should be the environment where your body can rest, relax, Rejuvenate., and unfortunately it's usually worse at home than it is throughout the rest of your daytime because we're sort of locked into this toxic box. And so I found this out the hard way many, many years ago, uh, 30 plus years ago, that building materials can make people sick and. I turn that into a business now where I work with clients all over the world and I help them remodel or build healthier homes or just help them live in a healthier space. And we certainly can do it. It's just a very, very, uh, difficult proposition these days.

George Siegal:

So this is a lot more than just making sure they don't have Chinese drywall in their house, right? I mean, you're talking about a lot of different areas in the home. Yeah. Where there can be problems.

Andrew Pace:

Exactly. Right. You know, a home can be made up of, of well over a thousand different materials and you start breaking those things down to literally the screws and nails that hold the home together. You know, the, the, the situation with the Chinese drywall after a hurricane Katrina was essentially an eye opener for a lot of people to show how dangerous a poorly made product can be inside of a home. What we find is it's like peeling the layers of an onion. You know, the next layer can be just as stinky or stinkier than the one you just replaced. And so we're finding that all the building materials that we use, whether it's the, the framing, the wood studs that can bring in mold spores into the house, the treated lumber that can, uh, cause flame retardants and pesticides to, uh, then evaporate or what's called off gas into the livable space. Uh, paints and coatings, the flooring materials, insulation, roofing materials, you name it, everything will off gas something for a period of time, and it's a matter of figuring out how to either replace those materials with healthier items, seal them, uh, or manage them once they've been released. How do we get get 'em out of the house?

George Siegal:

Now? I made a documentary film called The Last House Standing, and it was about how we buy and build homes in places without truly understanding the risks. And we also build them not very well. You know, a lot of 'em are very poorly built to withstand the hazards that could affect them. Sure. Most people do not want to pay for a safer house. What do you find for people paying for an environmentally safer house?

Andrew Pace:

It's, it's a good question because especially nowadays with the cost of building materials the way they are and the, and the rising interest rates, generally speaking, if you compare apples to apples quality level to quality level, a healthy home should not cost a dollar more than a traditional built home. But this is where it really gets into the weeds. The fact of the matter is that you are right. Many homes, I can't say the majority built around the country. In many parts of the country, there, there is no building code, or if there is building code, there's nobody to enforce it. And so it's up to the contractor, essentially. It's like the wild west. They're doing whatever they want and it's up to then the homeowner to, to, uh, police that, and most homeowners don't have the knowledge. They don't know how a home gets put together. They, they, they just look and say, okay, this is looking fine. They don't realize what's been done and where, uh, they've skipped code and they've skipped some recommendations, but it, it, it's a problem in that we build homes predominantly out of wood. And I'm sure your, your documentary probably delved into this. Oh, yeah. We build out of wood because wood is prevalent here in North America, in Europe, they build homes out of concrete for the most part. Why? Because all the ingredients of concrete, uh, um, were essentially originated from, from that, that location. And you look at something like the Coliseum that was built 2000 years ago, that's still standing today, versus the oldest wood structure in the United States built in the 16 hundreds. You can't even enter because of fear of collapse. And why is that? Because wood is not designed to be a thousand year material. It's designed to be more temporary.

George Siegal:

Yeah. If everybody built with concrete, it would solve a lot of the issues I'm sure you deal with. Oh yeah. In houses, especially the mold issue if it's built right, for sure. Um, but the problem is, you know what we talked about in, in Moore Oklahoma, they changed the building code after eight tornadoes wipe them out, but it only costs less than $2 a square foot to build your house safely. But if they hadn't changed the building code, the builder we interviewed there said most people probably still wouldn't do it right, because we're more interested in the icing on the cake than we are in the ingredients. And how do you combat, how do you combat that?

Andrew Pace:

Well, it, it really starts in two locations. Number one, the, the homeowner themselves are the ones paying the bill. Uh, they have to be educated enough to know what to ask for, what to look for. But the second problem we have, and probably the bigger issue, is that the building industry itself is, Uh, essentially policed by themselves. They write these specifications, they write the guidelines. When, when you have builders who are members of home building associations, uh, it's not a third party saying, here's how you need to build it. It's all the builders getting together and saying, what's the best way for us to do this and to make it sound official. And so they're not necessarily pushing their own, um, partners in crime, I would say with, um, higher standards, better building codes. And so it takes third parties to get involved to push these codes, and then you're gonna get push back for the next 10 years, I'm sure in Oklahoma it was like with the strapping involved in, in the framing, nobody wanted to do that because the cost of the strapping could add a couple thousand dollars to a cost of a home. Your home gets blown over with a very mild hurricane or a mild tornado. So I mean, seriously, it's, it's, it's, these are very simple things, but this is also why the cost of homes to build them have gone up so much in the last 30, 40 years because we've realized that we need to build them safer. And healthier, uh, with more longevity, with better quality materials. And so it's not just the increase in cost of material, but it's the increase in technology used to get you into a home that's gonna last a longer time.

George Siegal:

Yeah. I don't have a lot of love for the construction industry because especially when they have a lobby group that lobbies to keep codes lower, so they're kind of working to keep the houses less expensive. Sure. And I've always thought if somebody would step up and be a hero, and say, look, I'm not just gonna build you a house. I'm gonna build you a house that's forward thinking and is actually gonna be around down the road. Right. And then you get rewarded for it. Mm-hmm.. So let's talk about specifically the things that you do. Give me an example, let's walk through. Is it most, do you do more in in new homes or can you also do it in, in existing houses? Cause there's a lot of houses that are still around that people could probably fix

Andrew Pace:

we can do it in both. I will say this, that if you know, a large percentage of my clientele are people with extreme allergies, asthma, chemical sensitivities, they've been poisoned by mold in past houses. They've been poisoned by the materials and past houses, so they come to me to help them build a healthy home. It's a lot easier to build a home from the ground up that's completely free of toxins than it is to take an existing home and renovate it to that point because you don't know what you're getting into until you start opening things up. Sure. But that said, uh, in the 30 plus years of doing this, I've worked with well over 30, 32,000 customers, uh, around the world. And I can say that with the knowledge gain from working with those clients, We've learned that 90% of the chemical toxicity issues that come from building materials will come from the things you see and touch on a daily basis once you move into the house. So people spend a lot of time looking at things like insulation and roofing materials and framing and so forth, which are all very important mainly for your structural longevity, durability, energy efficiency. But when it comes to human health concerns, 90% will come from the things you see in touch on a daily basis. Flooring materials is number one. Flooring materials will almost always be the biggest offender of indoor air quality in anybody's home. The second thing will be all your painted surfaces, your walls and your ceilings. Third cabinetry, woodwork, and um, built-ins, your shelving units and so forth. And then the last thing will be your own personal furnishings area rugs, window treatments, things of that nature. So when selecting materials for a new home or for a remodel, we'll wanna spend a good amount of time talking about these four areas because this will be the, have the biggest impact on your indoor air quality. But then we can't forget about those areas that you don't see once the home is up, the insulation, the sheathing, caulking materials, air barriers, things of that nature. Because once you do it, they're kind of done. You have one shot at it. So let's make sure we choose wise.

George Siegal:

Now when somebody buys a house or even when they're doing their walkthrough with a house that they just had built, you often have a home inspector come. But they're not looking for the kind of things that you're talking about.

Andrew Pace:

Not at all.

George Siegal:

Is it very expensive to test for those things? Just to find it? Because I always thought think too, if you test for things, you're gonna probably find some stuff. Oh yeah. What's a reliable way to find out how toxic your house is?

Andrew Pace:

That's a great question, and it kind of comes down to the, the, the testing protocol. You have to kind of know what you're testing for in order to, to conduct the right tests. So what I test for, We have a, uh, on our website, you can purchase a product called a home air test kit. And it actually, uh, tests for, um, 30 to 40 of the top VOCs that are found in people's homes, and most importantly formaledhyde because technically speaking formaldehyde is a volatile, organic compound, but it requires a different test method. And so you have to specifically test for formaldehyde. Formaldehyde is a key trigger for people with allergies, asthma, and sensitivities. Formaldehyde is found in a large percentage of traditional building materials, and so I know that if I find formaldehyde, I especially find it in, in elevations of 20 parts per billion or higher, just in the air in your home, that that can be considered an unsafe level to live in, especially for anybody who's got a depressed immune system. Once we find out that there is elevated formaldehyde, we now start going through the building materials again that you can see and touch. Kind of like through process of elimination. We're gonna look at the flooring materials. Walls, the cabinetry and other things. We have a testing system here called a frat test, a formal aldehyde release attenuation test where we can test specific surfaces of the home down to one part per billion and tell you exactly the offending areas.

George Siegal:

Well, it almost sounds like an example of careful what you look for. Let's, let's say I get that kit. Yeah. And I test my house. Yeah. And it shows, there's a lot of stuff that shows up on that test. Sure. I'm gonna be. Whoa. What do I do now? Now, what's it gonna cost me to get to the bottom of this? Right? Sometimes ignorance is bliss in those things. Maybe, maybe not your health,.

Andrew Pace:

But this is, this is why I believe the industry as a whole hasn't tackled this problem. I believe that everybody who's involved in construction knows that the materials that they use aren't probably very healthy. They're never gonna admit that to their clients. They'll, they'll admit it to themselves behind closed doors. So when the VOC issue came out 20 years ago, uh, volatile Organic Compounds, contractors started listening up and, okay, well, we gotta reduce VOCs. The problem is, is that VOCs are not regulated by the EPA because of human health concerns. They're regulated because of outdoor air pollution. The VOC content of a product really has nothing to do with human health directly has to do with low level smog. But the building industry said, okay, well, we agree, we'll cut down on VOCs. Okay, we'll start using the low VOC products. But they really haven't addressed the health issue at all. They, they know this. And so when somebody complains that somebody moves into a home, they complain that there's. Uh, they're getting headaches. They're feeling flu-like symptoms and so forth. They're usually saying, well, I don't know what it is. I mean, it's got, obviously it's something that you're, you're coming in contact with, but it's nothing we've done. Then I get involved and I say, well, yeah, you've got high levels of formaldehyde. It, it's now, now the industry's gonna push back. The builder's gonna push back. The suppliers will push back. Nobody wants to be responsible. This is what we build our homes with. I mean, to your point of your, of your documentary, uh, we don't build homes to last, so we don't build homes to be healthy. And so that's what we're trying to change.

George Siegal:

And then what's the fix on that? So mm-hmm., you know, I think of some of the knuckleheads I've built houses with and, and if I did a test like that, I was working with one guy who begged me not to test one particular thing. Because he didn't wanna know what the answer was. Sure. Because it's like, boy, you know, it's like getting a cola guard test. And then it says, okay, now you gotta get a colonoscopy. So what's the risk with this? I mean, what, what, what would a builder have to say, wow, I have to repaint the house. I have to tear the floor up, I have to get new carpeting. I mean, what's the cure?

Andrew Pace:

Yes. Yes. And yes. I mean, seriously, I, I, you know, one tidbit I can pass along that'll probably shock everybody is, uh, but it's a hundred percent true. Carpeting is typically the most toxic thing you can put in your house. For a number of reasons, probably, but number of reasons. Carpeting is made from anywhere from 600 to 1200 chemicals. Uh, I have personally tested carpeting that's 35 years old. That's still off gases, toxic levels of formaldehide. Wow. And so, uh, the way that carpeting is made today is a little bit different than it was 35 years ago. It's made with lower formaldehyde, but you have to remember that carpet is also a sponge. It absorbs outgassing of other materials and kind of sits in there. So now you're essentially walking over a, a toxic sponge. And so, uh, I have, I'll tell people, even in a new home, if the home comes with carpet, I'd rather have you live on the wood subfloors until you can afford better flooring from a human health standpoint, the best thing you can do right away is rip out the carpet.

George Siegal:

No carpet at all?

Andrew Pace:

No carpet at all. Now, there are two brands of carpet in the world that do make carpeting that's completely free of synthetic chemicals, earth weave, and nature's carpet. Both of them are made from natural wool. Neither one of 'em are treat with pesticides or chemical dyes, but they're expensive cuz they're wool carpets, number one. Number two, this doesn't account for those people who have wool sensitivities and they can't use wool either because it makes them itchy. So, I mean, you have to, you have to choose materials based on the customer. Of course there are some general rules stay away from, formaldehyde you know, stay away from, from carpeting. But, you know, when it comes to making specific recommendations for customers, my customers who have sense, chemical sensitivities, allergies, they have Lyme disease, mass cell disorder, all these different afflictions. Um, I have to choose materials for them based upon what I believe is going to be healthier for them, and then they have to test to make sure it will, uh, be okay for them.

George Siegal:

I loved in your media information homesick, you talked about homesick has a new meaning. No doubt we're really getting sick in our homes. Now. Is this for people that aren't allergic to it? Are we still getting, is it like cell phones where we're still getting a level of contamination that's doing something to us, even though it's not bothering us at the time.

Andrew Pace:

Sure. Well, I, I think I can, um, relate it to this and, and because we're talking about construction, we all know contractors who have been in the industry for 30 years or longer, and they'll say, listen, none of this stuff is bad. Look at me. I'm okay. You know, uh, but there's, there is a very well known problem in the painting industry, but with painting contractors, but never talked about that there's a correlation between painters and substance abuse because a lot of the chemicals found in traditional paints today are actually classified as narcotics, but the industry doesn't wanna talk about this. Um, there are people who are leaving construction and then once they finally go see a doctor for their checkup, find out they, they have one form of cancer or another. Um, again, huge in the industry, especially with flooring installers and carpet layers um, it's not just because they're on their hands and knees all day because they're on their hands and knees all day, breathing in what's coming off of their materials. But the, these are problems that are serious but just not talked about. And then there's people who just say, I walk on new carpet and my feet, my feet start to feel numb. And that's neuropathy that's caused by the chemical exposure. And so, There's a lot of information about this that's out there, but I think most people take the head and the sand mentality because the more you know, the less you want to know.

George Siegal:

Yeah. I, my office in my house was upstairs, was a really small room that had wood and I moved it downstairs to a room that has carpet. So now I feel like I'm sitting in some toxic pit talking to you. Yeah. But the sound is better because the carpet is better for noise.

Andrew Pace:

You got that Right. And so that's the thing. It's the trade off. It's the, with every customer I work with. They all have different requirements. Uh, obviously everybody who wants to work with me wants to live in a healthier home. Maybe it's because they just want to do better for the kids. Um, or maybe it's because there's somebody in the family that is actually going through cancer treatments or somebody who has depressed immune system because of Lyme disease. Um, or I, I have customers who have, um, autistic children and they spend a lot of time on the ground and they don't, they, their symptoms are, are, are, are worsened by chemical exposure. So I help them live in a healthy home for them. People have asked me over the years, then, why can't you just write a book on how to build a healthy house? It's impossible because everybody's gonna be just a little bit different. There are some rules I go by against with, with, with formaldehyde and other things, but for the most part it's individual choices for each person.

George Siegal:

Well, I've met a lot of guys that, and men and women that, that build concrete homes. Mm-hmm., and they're, they're amazed more people don't want. And then I ask them questions about cost and nobody really has a good answer. They kind of say, well, it'll be a little bit more. So they can't really tell you. And I always thought if you could line up a concrete house versus a Woodhouse Yes, and show people it'll cost X dollars more to build it. But we're gonna factor in, here's what your costs are. If, if your house gets wiped out, here's your cost of relocation. All the different things that go in to it. Can you lay some dollars on the line and say, if I'm building a$500,000 house and now I wanna make it a safe environment, sure. Is it gonna do a lot to the cost.

Andrew Pace:

So yeah, I can put some numbers to this and matter of fact, because of the pandemic and the cost of building materials, the cost of lumber specifically, you know, lumber went up five times. Um, the cost of where it was, it's come back down again to where it's almost pre covid levels, but not necessarily. Right now just the materials alone to build a concrete home versus a traditional stick frame are probably running about 25% higher. Now that's just the shell of the home. Okay. It's not the interiors, cuz nothing changes on the inside, but on the outside the materials cost about 25% more does. So this will equate to in a, in a half a million dollar home, probably raising the price.$15,000 in material. What doesn't, um, get calculated here is the cost of the labor, because building a concrete home requires having, uh, a crew that knows how to put the blocks together. Yeah. This is where. We run into problems. 20 years ago, I was a huge advocate of insulated concrete form homes because I saw this as the wave of the future, the best way to build a healthy home. Um, and it, the reason why it's a healthy home is because it, it eliminates mold in the cavity walls cuz there is no cavity wall. Um, from a standpoint of indoor air quality, I'm controlling exactly when and where fresh air comes in the home because there's no leaks. Mm-hmm., I mean, it's, it's the perfect way to build. However, if I don't have crews that know what they're doing, the cost of labor can go up 30 to 50% and now all of a sudden that 15 to $20,000 material cost jumps up to a 40 to $50,000 increase, and you're looking at 10% more on the entire home. And that's, that's probably where I would say if you're going to budget, figure about your overall cost of a home, will probably go up about 10% just to build an insulated concrete form home. Now you've gotta look at the interiors. If we're going to build a home with quality interiors, floor materials, cabinetry, countertops, and so forth, the cost of the home should not go up a dollar if you want those quality materials to also be healthy. But if you're going to the big box stores and you're buying whatever's on sale, Because now the rest of the home costs too much to build and the inside has to, we have, we've gotta kinda shrink that budget. It's going to cost more to build a healthy home. And so how much more really depends on, on, you know, what the budget was beforehand. And so the easiest way to answer that question is if you're building apples to apples quality level to quality level, there is no difference in price.

George Siegal:

It would be great if we had a statistic that we could show the cost of not doing. And I was, I went up to this place, which is about an hour north of Tampa, um, a few weeks ago called Zephyr Hills, and there's a huge development that's being built, all of wood, a hundred percent from the ground up. And I'm looking at that going, what are they thinking about?

Andrew Pace:

Right, right. Well, I think what happened was it got the point. Where, go ahead. I think what happened was it got to the point where, and I know this because I have friends building in the Tampa area right now, they couldn't get concrete block, and so they're starting, they're gonna do 30 home or 40 home starts, and all of a sudden block was nonexistent. And so they had to make a choice. Do we halt construction or we just change materials to keep the job going? And I think a lot of projects just switched over to wood. Now on the flip side, during the height of the pandemic in, in, you know, late 2020, um, uh, and through mid 2021, a lot of projects that would normally be wood frame ended up going insulated concrete form, because that became the same price or less, and material was readily available. And so again, it usually comes down to cost when it comes to construction and development, and, and it's not cost of your health or my health. It's cost of, you know, their bottom line. And this is where I, you know, what you're getting at is, wouldn't it be great if we knew, all right, we build a healthy home, we build a traditional home. Now a healthy home that's made from concrete. Not only are you gonna save energy every month because it's gonna cost next to nothing to heat or cool the space compared to a traditional home, but you're also gonna save how many doctor visits per year. And then long term health, it's hard to, it's hard to put a number on that because obviously everybody's different and we don't know what you're exposed to beyond your home. But it comes down to a quality of life issue and how much is quality of life worth to people? And what I mean by that, Peace of mind. If I know that every night I'm going home to a completely healthy home, that's actually gonna be a healing rejuvenative space, that's good peace of mind. That instantly makes me feel better. And so it actually helps to, to, um, have that, um, the, you know, the body responds to that, um, that feeling of, of, um, Of health, it responds to, um, that, that feeling of, of, um, knowing that you're going into a healing space.

George Siegal:

I always thought too that the industries that would also benefit from this, in the case of building a safe, you know, structural home, the insurance industry would have something to gain there because they wouldn't have to pay for all the damage. Right. But they don't seem that motivated, at least I'm not aware of it. If they are, it's not that the public isn't hearing about it. You may know stuff that I don't, and then in your industry health insurance, why would they not wanna do preventative stuff and help and reward people for building in a way that keeps people healthier? I think that should be part of it.

Andrew Pace:

It should be part of it. Um, I, I, both of those points are fantastic. The, the, the problem we have is the industry itself is dictating where things go. And so why don't you have giant builders marketing that they can build a healthy home? Well, because if january 1st, 2023, a big home builder says, we now can build you a healthy home too. What does that say about all the homes they built prior to that unhealthy? Right.

George Siegal:

It's probably a nicer way to say it. It's like, wow, we're evolving our technology.

Andrew Pace:

I know. Well, this is the problem because it now opens themselves up themselves, up the lawsuits from people who live in a home that was built last year where they weren't marketing a healthier home. This happened in the, in the industry 15 years ago, maybe 20 years ago, when, uh, a company came out with the very first formaldehyde free, uh, fiberglass insulation within a month this company had to put full page ads in the trade publications saying, we're not doing this because of human health issues. We're doing it because there's a better resin. Uh, it's less expensive. It keeps our costs down. It's better technology and so forth. They had to backtrack the whole reason why they switched over from formaldehyde, and so it's all because of the threat of lawsuits. The paint industry has, has gone through this. Um, just about every paint manufacturer in the United States has been enjoined in a class action lawsuit or been fined by the, um, by the FTC because of claims made about their zero VOC paints. Because at the end of the day, they're not any healthier. They're just better for the outdoor environment, but they marketed 'em as being healthier.

George Siegal:

And there has to be a way though to slip that in because, you know when, when cars started being made with airbags, Um, everybody that was killed or injured without an airbag didn't go back and sue the automotive industry. I mean, it's sad to think we can't make things safer because it's gonna show that we weren't making' em safe.

Andrew Pace:

Yeah. But, but in this situation, or in your analogy, airbags were invented. They were put into cars. Seat belts were invented, put into cars. We all know formaldehyde as a carcinogen, everybody knows this., but it's still used on, in half of the products used in our homes. Why? Because they don't want to admit the fact that this is a problem. Um, they also look at the ingredients and say, yeah, but it. It really does some good for the product itself. You know, it is a really good antifungal. It's a really good, you know, curing agent. It's a really good flame retardant, so on and so forth. And so they're, they're lobbying to be able to continue to use these chemicals, even though we all know how dangerous they are.

George Siegal:

Yeah. I saw a documentary a few years ago and I can't remember the name, but it was about This dad went and got involved with the, uh, companies because they were putting fragrance in things in clothes and different products. Mm-hmm.. And it's how they're killing us with fragrances and they know it's bad. Mm-hmm. But they're still doing it.

Andrew Pace:

They're still doing it. Well, alright. Another example. There's about 92,000 chemicals used in the production of building materials and home goods in this country. 92,000. Out of those 92,000, we only know the toxicological effects of about three percent. We have no idea what the other 80 some thousand chemicals do to the human body, and we certainly don't know how they interact with one another and create new chemical compounds within the home the home. Out of all these chemicals that have ever been invented, there's only been a handful that have ever been deemed to be illegal for use, and so the only reason why a product becomes illegal to use or is is taken off the market is if there's enough class action lawsuits threatening to put companies under. Which is what happened with asbestos and lead. Um, and, and this is why mold is as big as it is now because of all the insurance claims from mold damage and people getting sick. So it's just a matter of time before chemicals are added to this equation. Um, we already had BPA band in plastics because of, you know, BPA as an endocrine disruptor. But what do they replace it with? They replace it with bpb. Which now scientists are saying it's probably even more dangerous for humans than bpa, but it hasn't hit that threshold yet of being taken out of products because there hasn't been enough lawsuits.

George Siegal:

I gotta say, you're depressing the hell outta me.

Andrew Pace:

Which is not why I wanna be here, but you know, is exactly why I do what I do. Because there are better ways to do it, and it's not going to cost more. It's not gonna be more difficult. It's just something we all have to think about that. Do we wanna live in a home that is a healing space or a home that's not.

George Siegal:

Should be an easy decision. I was gonna say, I was gonna go live in the woods, but then probably climate change and different things out there will kill me, so I'll get it one day.

Andrew Pace:

Every pro there's a con. For sure.

George Siegal:

I know. So gimme, gimme a simple action item here. Just kind of wrap this up. Yeah. Where I, I'm either in a home or I'm thinking of buying a home. Yeah. What's the first thing I should do?

Andrew Pace:

Well, o obviously the first thing you do is, is, and we talked about this before with home inspections, making sure that the home is in a good, it's a good solid sound structure, right? No mold problems, no structural problems. From that, you can make it a healthier space just by doing something simple like putting a good air purification system in the house. Um, making sure that the cleaning materials we use aren't adding to that chemical soup. Uh, people ask me all the time, if, you know, they buy a house that has brand new flooring or brand new cabinetry, should I rip that out and replace it right away? No, of course not. Unless there's some acute health issue. Don't worry about it to that level. Understand that our bodies are amazing things and they can tolerate a whole host of chemicals throughout the day, and most people have the ability to filter that stuff out. The people who have extreme chemical sensitivities are those rare, you know, 10%, 15% of the country that just don't have the ability to filter that. Those poisons out very well. So it comes across as being flu-like symptoms, trouble sleeping, so on and so forth. And it can go, obviously get worse than that, so don't replace things right away if you don't have to. But as you do, make improvements in your home. Think about just getting materials that are healthier for you and the occupants.

George Siegal:

You've given me a whole bunch of new industries to get upset with. Now, . Um, you're welcome. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much. I wish I had known about you before I bought my house because, um, there's, there's so many things here that I think are important for people to check out. Mm-hmm., what's the best way for people to follow you? And I'm gonna put it all in the show notes, but you have a website and you also, uh, what's the best way to reach out?

Andrew Pace:

I do. So, um, our main website, which is the green design center.com. This is where you can find, first of all, link directly to my consulting. Um, I consult with people who are building a home, remodeling a home, or just need to, you know, paint a room. They just need some assistance. Um, I'll give them, you know, assistance and 15 minute increments. Um, and then also a lot of the materials that I have found over the years that have met our requirements for our customers. We've kind of curated the best of the best and put 'em on that website. And then I do a podcast called Non-Toxic Environments. I've got a couple hundred episodes out there, essentially all about building, remodeling, just living in a healthier home. And, and I kind of go into this in great detail about very specific things.

George Siegal:

Interesting. I'm definitely gonna check out your podcast cuz I, I, I just find the stuff you're talking about so important and fascinating to me that Oh, thank you. Most people don't think about it and I, I, right. I think the only way to change things because the industries aren't going to change it. We have to demand it as the consumers, if we don't put our feet down and say, we're tired of you dumping your crap on us. We want better. They're not gonna do it.

Andrew Pace:

You know? I love that you just said that because honestly, when I first got into this business, I was in commercial construction and I was a commercial construction material supplier. I was, I found out about a paint product called AFM Safeco, which is the only toxin free paint made in North America. I found out about this stuff. I brought it to a friend of mine who was the head of building maintenance for the largest medical center in Wisconsin. I said, Jim, I want you to try this paint to see if how you like it. I had doctors and nurses coming up to me after, after, you know, the painters put it on saying, where can I get this stuff from my house? But yet the painters themselves didn't want to use it because it was just too expensive they thought. So it dawned on me that I can't sell it to commercial construction. I can't go to the architects and designers because they'll never specify it because it's always about price. Homeowners, consumers themselves, they're the ones who wanted this. So I started a business selling these materials, retail, and I found out in the last 30 years, They still run the show. People who are writing the check, people who are buying the product, they're the ones who can change the industry because they are now buying the products and going to the contractor saying, use this, or I'll find somebody else. And it really is making a huge difference when you do give, you know, power to the consumer.

George Siegal:

People have to put their foot down. If we don't wake up as the consumers mm-hmm., nobody's ever gonna look out for us. I think it's such a jungle out there. I agree. So we have to be our own best advocates.

Andrew Pace:

Yeah. And when it comes to these types of materials, don't wait for, don't wait for the government to regulate toxicity out of these materials. Cuz it will never happen. It has, there's, this is not on the radar. Uh, they'll regulate outdoor air pollution and the materials they'll regulate, you know, cars and gas mileage and emissions and so forth. But when it comes to human health inside of our homes, there is no regulation on the books that helps any one of us. You gotta do it yourself.

George Siegal:

Great information. Andy. Thank you so much for coming on today and. I hope people go and check out your stuff because I know I'm going to. I think it's a lot of good information.

Andrew Pace:

Well, it was my pleasure. Thanks for having me.

George Siegal:

Thank you so much for joining me on this week's Tell Us How to Make It Better podcast. All the information to get in touch with Andrew you will find in the show notes as well as a contact form to reach out to me and all my social media contacts as well. If you enjoyed what you were listening to, please subscribe to the podcast and share the link with other people, and we hope to see you back here week after week. Thanks again for listening. See you next time.

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George Siegal

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