Dr. Leslie Dobson: [00:00:00] So I was working with highly, highly mentally ill, psychotic, mostly psychotic or psychopathic individuals right when they were arrested, right after they had convicted usually a felony or were the ones I would be with. Well there, let's say they were being charged with the felony.
But I met them in a very chaotic state. They were unmedicated and so, I became extremely fascinated with how sick individuals minds can be, how much we can help them, but also just what the world is not aware of
David Gwyn: Dr. Leslie Dobson is not my typical guest on Thriller 101, but when I say she delivered for the writing community, I mean it. By the end of this episode, you'll have a better sense of how to build character motivation and why it might be just as important to think about your audience as about your character, as well as how to navigate themes of mental illness and so much more.
I'm David Gwyn, an agent and writer navigating the world of traditional publishing. During this first season of the Thriller 101 [00:01:00] podcast, we're going to focus on building the skills necessary to write the kind of thrillers that land you in agent and readers.
I'm talking to agents, authors, and other publishing professionals about the best way to write a novel. If you want the expert secrets, this is where you're going to find them. Last week on the podcast, I talked to Alex Kenna. Alex and I talk about this two tiered tension system that she used to make her book irresistible to readers.
Alex Kenna: People want to read characters that are nuanced. They have backstories They have motivations I think for me I'm actually a pretty fast writer But I have to spend a long time ruminating on things and kind of developing the backstory and figuring out who's who so that's kind of the challenge
David Gwyn: That's linked in the description if you want to check that out. Today's guest is Dr. Leslie Dobson. She's a licensed clinical and forensic psychologist in California. She has over 20 years of psychology experience. She has worked in maximum security settings with individuals who committed violent felonies and were found to have a severe mental illness.
She spent years with psychopaths and is passionate about educating and empowering clients, especially women. To live their best life and set [00:02:00] boundaries with toxic people preserving their energy dr. Dobson's first book the friend cleanse How to identify energy vampires set boundaries and balance your glass of life is out now and we're gonna talk about that as well In this interview, so let's get straight to it.
So Dr. Leslie, thanks so much for being here. I'm really excited to chat with you.
Dr. Leslie Dobson: Yeah, thank you for having me.
David Gwyn: Yeah, so your book The Friend Cleanse, which is, which is out now, came out in January.
Can you tell us what it's about?
Dr. Leslie Dobson: It is about setting boundaries with people in your life to preserve your energy. And it came from me working with people during COVID and realizing that people were actually happier interpersonally because they didn't have to be around people that sucked. And so after COVID, all of a sudden people were going to these events and they were dreading it and they were tired at the end of the week.
They were anxious all week about it. And so I started to just think, you know, we need a little bit of like a permission [00:03:00] slip, something we would have in high school. And it's just going to be this little book and then a game on my website, where you can actually strategically place people around you on this moving sphere.
And so I thought, you know, I think I, I think I can write about this because I've had to work with psychopaths and people trying to take advantage of me and manipulate me my whole career. So I'm going to write a little book on boundaries, empower people now, and then I'll write a bigger book later that actually like explains it all in theory.
David Gwyn: Yeah, that's so cool. It's so funny. When I, when I read the description for it, I thought a lot about my large part of my audience is writers and As writers, I mean, we have people in our lives talking to us about how what we're doing is not going to work, it's not realistic, you know, it's a waste of time.
And I can't imagine a more important text for writers and like the emotional intelligence of being a writer and having a writing career than than this book of just being able to recognize those [00:04:00] people and move that negativity and decide who's in and who's out. I can't imagine a better book. So, What, what was it that really drew you to this project that you thought, you know, because you have a variety of experiences and expertise, like, was it just this moment in the pandemic or was there something else that really you were like, this is the thing that I'm, that I'm going to you know, focus on?
Dr. Leslie Dobson: So I moved out of working in the government and I started private practice and I slowly became more and more empowered by doing these forensic cases where I have thousands and thousands of records and I have to write a story. story for each case. I have to write a story that makes sense. And I don't want the audience surprised at the end, right?
I want the judge and the jury to say, okay, that diagnosis makes sense. And we're going to put her up on the stand and she's going to, in really easy terms, explain why this person has schizophrenia or trauma. I love that ability to be able to give people the [00:05:00] permission and the understanding to get to the end of the story.
And so when I was writing the book, I wanted it to be like, okay, we all have struggles with friendships. We have attachment styles as humans. Let's conclude with something that really makes sense. We need to preserve our energy so that we can maintain a mastery over our lives. Because that's the most important thing.
And then, what we can do later is if we have energy left over, we can allot it to certain categories and certain people. So for me, the process of putting it down on paper was, I want to give people this, almost like, it's like a little journal. Like, parts of it you can write your friends in, you can characterize them, but it takes the thoughts, the boundaries that we all suck at, right?
Consistently implementing and it puts it into like this physical book that you can take around and use with you. [00:06:00]
David Gwyn: Yeah, what a great idea. I'm curious. I want to dig into the background a little bit here So I know you have like I mentioned a variety of experiences Can you talk a little bit about your background in the prison system and then how and why you decided to transition out?
Dr. Leslie Dobson: Yeah, my first My first unpaid job was in the Los Angeles County Jail. So I was working with highly, highly mentally ill, psychotic, mostly psychotic or psychopathic individuals right when they were arrested, right after they had convicted usually a felony or were the ones I would be with. Well there, let's say they were being charged with the felony.
But I met them in a very chaotic state. They were unmedicated and so, I became extremely fascinated with how sick individuals minds can be, how much we can help them, but also just what the world is not aware of. And we have a few movies that I respect, [00:07:00] but I do not respect a lot of how these actors are portraying mental illness.
And when I walked into that jail for my first experience, I thought, Oh my God. The world is not aware. The world is not aware of what crazy really means. And so from there on, I just, you know, it's a lot of applying and I just kept chasing jobs and rotations like that, eventually getting paid to do it, which was very exciting. When I had my, my first daughter, my specialty was actually high risk sex offending. And when I had my first daughter, I, I couldn't do it anymore. I felt way too vulnerable working with pedophiles. and coming home to a little girl. So I slowly lost my energy to take my armor off every night and be with her.
And I thought, I can't keep doing this. doing these two roles anymore. And I started to find jobs. Like I worked for the military or for the VA where I could be myself at work.
David Gwyn: [00:08:00] Yeah. Wow. I mean, such a powerful message. I'm, I'm curious. I'm going to put you on the spot, maybe a little bit. You mentioned that you have a few, a few movies that you respect.
What if for writers who want to get it right. And for people who want to portray people. Accurately, what, what movies are those that you think really, really do get it right?
Dr. Leslie Dobson: I mean, recently, and I'm really excited for the next one to come out, is The Joker.
David Gwyn: Oh, okay, cool.
Dr. Leslie Dobson: The parts of The Joker that really resonated with me were the moments of suspense.
Where you have this uncomfortable giggling and his horrifying facial expressions. And it's still And then all of a sudden you have an extremely fast movement with very dramatic music, and he attacks. And that would happen to me every day in the state hospital. It happened every day in my groups with these guys.
So, getting it right in so many theatrical components, that really [00:09:00] was It's this dark layer of schizophrenia that we do not see. It's that fear of the impulse, the fear of the attack, the never ever really being in control of the person and not being able to read them. So the writing played a role in it, the music, the lighting, there's so many elements, elements of that movie that made me just shiver because that is what I experienced every day.
David Gwyn: Wow. Wow. That's really interesting.
Dr. Leslie Dobson: Yeah.
David Gwyn: And so it's, it's funny. I've, I'm was really excited to talk to you because I've talked to authors in the past who have a psychology background and they studied it in college or, or in grad school. And I find that their characters are always have this like something extra that makes them feel so well rounded and makes the characters feel really real.
And so what benefit do you think there is for writers to, to studying psychology?
Dr. Leslie Dobson: Well, I think the long term benefit is that we really understand what we're trying to explain to our audience, right? So it may be fictional, but [00:10:00] we can give it some truth and we stop adding to it. Like most schizophrenic individuals are not dangerous.
They're actually 14 times more likely to be the victims of crimes. So if we really were to understand schizophrenia, that's something we could start to write. We would bring in the research, the realities to stop the misconception of mental illness. Understanding the psychology of the reader and what it really, the impact of these movies and these books for every individual person and their personalities.
Their family dynamics, their history, like, in psychology, we're kind of the mother hens, you know? We look over all the other disciplines and all the other jobs, and we have to know what everybody does at their job. So to write something that every single person in the hospital can read and understand, It's very important.
And so I, I like the perspective that psychologists take when they write because we write for everyone.
David Gwyn: [00:11:00] Okay, so let's pause there for a second. Did you catch the subject of Dr. . Leslie's book? She's going to talk more about it a little bit later in this interview, but before we get there, I want you to spend a second thinking about the people who drain your energy.
Writing is a difficult, time consuming and mentally taxing task. Who are the people rooting you on? Who are the ones adding to your creativity and motivation? Make sure you're making time for the right people. In the next part of the interview, we talk about character motivation, why reading your story aloud might do more than just fix odd phrasing, and so much more.
But before we do, you know that crushing frustration you feel when you're working on a scene that just doesn't click? You rack your brain, shuffle words, you even shout at your screen, but nothing seems to work. Writing fiction can feel like herding cats. You know what you want to say, but making those words fall in line
it is just another thing entirely. Now imagine a resource that helps identify why those scenes are falling flat. Wouldn't it be helpful to have a [00:12:00] guide that points out exactly where you're slipping? And not in some robotic, formulaic way like you sometimes see, but something that keeps your style and your unique creativity and flair.
Just something that points out where you need to focus your attention. I've faced that numbing screen too. I've tweaked, and trashed whole manuscripts until I cracked the code. Now I want to pass that key on to you. It's a worksheet.
But think of it more as like a secret weapon to solve the mysteries of your scenes that just aren't working. It sounds cool, right? There's just one catch. It's exclusive. It's only for the people on the Thriller 1 0 1 email list, and it's only for a limited time.
If you join the Thriller 1 0 1 email list now, you'll get the worksheet this week. If you're already on the list, congratulations, you are in line to get it.
This worksheet is really valuable because you might just find that what seemed blocked clicks into place with just a few changes or nudges, [00:13:00] or at least just an idea of where to focus your attention. You'll be able to turn that scene from the one that gives you headaches and keeps you up at night to your favorite scene in your manuscript.
Make sure you click the link in the description to sign up now. All right, let's head back to the interview.
Yeah, it makes a lot of sense. And you know, obviously this, this is a podcast a lot of thriller writers, crime suspense, mystery writers listen. And, you know, they're, it's true.
They're, they're trying to get, you know, sometimes they're trying to get somebody who's, who's, who's done something wrong and they're trying to like validate it in a way. But it's just as important to get the kind of whole picture, like you're mentioning, even just thinking about a reader and how a reader invests in a, in a specific character or how a reader is going to take something that's written and it's just as important as thinking about the characters and I think that's a really good point that, that a lot of people overlook.
Dr. Leslie Dobson: Right. And there's so many nuances, right? Like I, I'm starting to read the book Noise and I forget who, who wrote it, but it's, it's about you know, how do we [00:14:00] quiet the noise and how do we objectively and clearly start to see the world and the problems we have in front of us?
David Gwyn: And so let's, we'll, we'll continue our little crash course in, in character psychology here because I mean, writers are always thinking about ways, like I mentioned, to make their characters feel real.
And this especially comes out in character motivation, as I'm sure you know, and I know that the psychology of motivation is, is an area of study of yours, something that, that you're passionate about, something that you, that you have an expertise in. So can you talk a little bit about just like generally the psychology of motivation and then how writers might be able to like kind of apply that knowledge?
Dr. Leslie Dobson: Sure. I mean, for me and when I've worked with a lot of different companies, I think motivation is a huge factor. So building people's confidence and commitment to the sustainability of their goal. And one big thing I love are just setting realistic goals. So, you know, what is something that we use smart goals all the time in psychology, right?
What is something that is very specific and [00:15:00] measurable and something that you can actually obtain. And when you get to the point of these writer's blocks. Because I get them all the time, trying to explain my patients, these, you know, I have to explain why somebody has PTSD and it's very difficult. So I set myself these goals of I'm going to get through these small sections, and
can I describe her PTSD, but maybe not entirely how it plays into her OCD and the intrusive thoughts? But I can describe PTSD today. Tomorrow, I'll come back to OCD and the next day I'll try to bring it together. And a huge motivating factor in that is reading it out loud and becoming the emotions and the character that you're writing.
So for me, I have to picture myself reading that report to a judge and a jury, and I need to believe it too. And when I do that, I start to advance in my mind to the next part of the section that is needed to Keep their [00:16:00] buy in and further explain the story.
David Gwyn: I love that. As writers we hear all the time, read your, read your book out loud, but a lot of that's to like catch weird things, but I, I really feel like maybe the, one of these reads really should be us reading and trying to inhabit a character, right?
Read it almost like an actor would read it, and what it sounds like for you is like, can you imagine yourself there? Can you envision yourself there? Does this feel real to you? And I think that's a great point for people who are listening to try.
Dr. Leslie Dobson: Yeah. Like if we look at So that is somebody who is actually having some physical ailments. But they're perseverating on it so much that they're getting anxious from it, and they're making themselves more sick. How do you describe that to someone? It's very difficult to say, okay, yeah, she does have some stomach pain, but because she perseverates on it, she gets herself more anxious.
So it's not the stomach pain's fault. It's not entirely the anxiety's fault. So I have to sit there and explain it to [00:17:00] myself because it doesn't make any sense.
David Gwyn: Oh, that's so interesting. And so how much And I'm kind of just thinking about this now as you're talking about this, but like, how much of what you're doing on a day to day basis is storytelling, and not storytelling in like a fiction way, but just creating stories around these diagnoses or around these situations to help them make sense to people who are, who are trying to access the information.
Dr. Leslie Dobson: It's, it's a massive amount of the work. If I get thousands of pages of history of medical records, like I'm evaluating someone who's 50 and I have elementary school records. How does that play into the overall perspective of he murdered someone? What was his capacity to understand at the time of the crime?
All of these elements have to be a linear portrayal of an understanding of his capacity at the conclusion. And it is such a dynamic story to keep everything in line, keep everything with a [00:18:00] point, and also with the understanding that Cross Council is going to rip it to shreds when I'm on the stand.
David Gwyn: The more we're talking, the more I'm like, wait, we do the same thing. I mean, we take backstory for characters and we, we know where they went to high school and what they were like, what their favorite color was and what their favorite food is. And we take all that. But again, to your point, like we have to cut out a lot of that to get to what is the main point?
What is the real reason that they're where they are and doing the things that they do? And how do we tell? the right number of things and the right things to explain why they are the way that they are. I think that's so interesting. Like, how similar what we're doing is.
Like, they're very parallel,
Dr. Leslie Dobson: and you know, we both probably feel that. That pain when something is so good, but you can't keep it. It's just not relevant enough to keep us going.
David Gwyn: See the benefit for me as somebody who's fishing, I get to put that into a file and I can use that later.
You can't really do that. Well, Dr. Leslie, this has been so much fun. I have thoroughly enjoyed talking to [00:19:00] you. Before we go though, I would just love for you to tell people where they can find you, where they can look you up.
Dr. Leslie Dobson: Sure. It's Dr. Leslie Dobson on TikTok and Instagram. And then the YouTube is there at Dr.
Leslie. It hasn't grown yet because I'm going to start my own podcast and I'm hoping that it'll just be for the YouTube will be for the podcast. But my website's drlesleydobson. com and the little friend sphere that I described is free. You can just go on and play with it. It's just really interesting, the kind of picture, moving your friends around and then there's a cup of energy, which I, fill with rosé wine, so it's like pink.
But you can kind of picture like, okay, you know, I have a toddler. He's always going to suck my energy. My cup's always going to be low. I need to keep people in my life who are going to build up my energy right now and watch my energy cup. And then when my toddler gets less, You know energy sucking I can start to bring in people who might need a little bit more of me and to visibly see that Is pretty [00:20:00] fun.
David Gwyn: Yeah, I think that's so useful. And and so for people who are listening, I'll link that so you have quick access To dr. Leslie, like I mentioned dr. Leslie. This is so much fun. I really enjoyed talking to you. Thanks so much
Dr. Leslie Dobson: Yeah, thanks for talking to me.
David Gwyn: Okay, so that's it. I really enjoyed listening to Dr. Leslie talk about motivation and realistic portrayals of people.
And most importantly, I hope you think more deeply about who is adding to your energy and who is zapping your energy. As writers, we need to keep really in tune with our energy because that's the thing that we need in order to create on a really high level. Remember to jump on the Thriller 101 email list to get this week's giveaway.
That link is in the description. Next time on the podcast, I'll be talking to literary agent Jennifer Chevais about a Thriller 101 exclusive submission. She's going to share what she loves about the submission, what she sees in the submissions that she gets and how to grab an agent's attention.
Be sure to subscribe so you don't miss that episode, which drops next week and I'll see you then.