Thriller 101
A podcast for readers and writers of thriller, mystery, suspense, and crime fiction.
Thriller 101
The Art of Dual POV & Crafting Psychological Thrillers with Liz Alterman
Thriller 101 Newsletter
Last week's episode with Kathy Reichs
Learn more about Liz Alterman
Listen to the last conversation I had with Liz
Eloise Corvo: How to Navigate a Book Contract
Ever wondered how to master the intricate art of crafting multi-perspective thrillers?
You're in for a treat with our latest episode of Thriller 101 featuring the brilliant Liz Alterman. Liz, the celebrated author behind the gripping novel "The House on Cold Creek Lane," unpacks her unique approach to writing from multiple viewpoints. We dive into the narrative structure and character dynamics that make her stories so compelling, with practical advice for both new and seasoned writers. Liz offers a treasure trove of insights into the challenges and rewards of maintaining timeline consistency and creating authentic voices for her characters.
Don't miss this chance to learn from one of the best in the business!
Tweet me @DavidRGwyn
I do a lot of rewriting and looking at the timeline and seeing what should be added, what can go, but I think it almost is like a puzzle that I'm trying to put together.
Speaker 2:Multiple points of view are common in thrillers, mystery, suspense and crime novels. Readers love to have multiple angles on the same narrative. So, whether you're writing something that has multiple points of view now or not, you probably will if you write long enough in these genres. That's why it's so helpful to have Liz Alterman here to explain how she does it. I'm David Gwynn, an agented writer navigating the world of traditional publishing. During this second season of the Thriller 101 podcast, we're going to continue our focus on building the skills necessary to write the kinds of thrillers that land you an agent and readers. During this season, I'll be sharing some of my own insights, while also talking to agents, authors and other industry professionals about the best way to write a novel. So if you want the expert secrets, Thriller 101 is where you're going to find them. Last week on the podcast, I shared insights from Kathy Reichs, author of the Temperance Brennan series that inspired 12 seasons of the Bones television series.
Speaker 3:It's like writing for TV, where you have your A story, your B story, your C story, so you've got multiple things going on.
Speaker 1:So I do like to do that in the books and always have done that in the books as well.
Speaker 2:If you want to check out that interview, head down to the description, because I linked it there. Today's guest is Liz Alterman. Her work can be found in the New York Times, the Washington Post, Parents, McSweeney's, Internet, Tendency and other publications. She's the author of a young adult novel He'll Be Waiting a memoir, Sad Sacks, and a domestic suspense novel, the Perfect Neighborhood, and her newest release, the House on Cold Creek Lane, that we'll be talking about today. All right, let's get right into the interview. Liz, thanks so much for being on the Thriller 101 podcast. I'm really excited to chat with you.
Speaker 1:Oh, David, thank you so much for having me back again. I'm thrilled to be here. I listen to you. Every time a new episode comes out, I put in my AirPods, go for a walk and learn a little something new.
Speaker 2:Oh, you're awesome. Thank you so much. I really appreciate that. And your new novel, the House on Coal Creek Lane, is out right now. It's out today, so how do you feel?
Speaker 1:Oh, I feel good. I feel like it was a long, a long time coming and then, almost, like it, snuck up on me and I'm sure next week. If you interviewed me, I would think of 10 things that I should have done to prepare for launch day, but I'm I'm trying to let it go and just enjoy, enjoy the day.
Speaker 2:I feel like that's how it always is you always like think of something after. But what an awesome book and, from what I've seen, a lot of people are really liking it. A lot of people sharing on social media, which is great. I feel like that's a good sign of a great release. So can you tell us what it's about?
Speaker 1:Sure. So it's a domestic suspense novel and it follows two women, laurel and Corey, who are connected by something readers don't know about right out of the gate, but it's sort of slowly distilled as you keep reading. So it's told in each one of their points of view. And we start off with Laurel, who is a new mom. She has a toddler, but she's just had a new baby and she and her husband Rob moved to a new home. That seems almost too good to be true. They've been house hunting for a while and they're suddenly able to afford this and because she's on bedrest she doesn't have a chance to see it first, so her husband kind of handles it. And then when she arrives she notices this next door neighbor.
Speaker 1:Who's this older woman who her husband perceives as sort of grandmotherly and you know, just wanting to welcome them to the neighborhood, and Laurel finds her overbearing and a little judgy and I want the reader to kind of wonder you know how much is Laurel being sensitive and sleep deprived and how much is this old woman sort of a threat?
Speaker 1:And then on the other side she has a neighbor she really admires, who's young and attractive and single and interesting, and so we sort of follow how Laurel navigates life as a brand new mom in this new town. And then on the flip side we have Corey, who has moved into her mother's retirement village in Florida, sort of running from a tragic past that she doesn't I wouldn't necessarily say she wants to outrun Maybe people are sort of telling her to outrun it and so she has kind of her own story there where she knows she should try to heal and move forward, but she's just really having a difficult time adopting that philosophy move forward, but she's just really having a difficult time adopting that philosophy. And as it continues, you get to see how these women are connected and how they each sort of go from being, you know, I would say, weak or weakened by their circumstances to kind of have to take matters into their own hands, and for better or worse.
Speaker 2:I'll say that yeah no, what a great synopsis of this book it is. It's such a fun ride. I don't know, maybe you would think of this differently, but it had a lot of like a psychological thriller feel to it, and so where did you come up with the idea for this story?
Speaker 1:Oh, thank you for asking. Well, I do a lot of work at my dining room table and I'm surrounded by windows and I always look out and I can see neighbors walking dogs and people pushing strollers and I feel very fortunate to have very kind neighbors. And I've been here 24 years and that has been the case throughout. And I just started to think you know, what if you moved in and you were new and you got this house? That was a great deal. And what if suddenly you felt like, wow, I can't, I can't stand these neighbors and I'm in a fishbowl and I'm kind of suspicious of their motives? And so it came from that. But it also when you mentioned psychological thrillers. The.
Speaker 1:I grew up, you know, in high school and college in the late 80s, early 90s, and going to the movies to see psychological thrillers was like my absolute favorite way to spend the weekend. So I really had films like the Hand that Rocks the Cradle and Single White Female, those kind of things where you know you're kind of going along with your life and you know, suddenly this person enters it and it seems like they're going to maybe save you from a difficult situation, when really they're the villain that you just invited into your home and your life and so I love like I can never flip past those things. You know, pacific Heights, a Perfect Murder, any of that I'm. I'm always kind of like, oh all right, I know how this ends, but I'm going to watch.
Speaker 2:That's awesome. And so what kind of through lines? I mean, I'm just thinking about the Perfect Neighborhood, which we had a chance to talk about last time you were on the podcast. What kinds of through lines are you thinking about? What do you think draws you to any kind of project, whether it's the Perfect Neighborhood or this new release, the House on Cold Creek Lane or whatever you're working on now? What is it that draws you to these stories?
Speaker 1:Yeah, oh, that's a good question. You know, I think I love the idea. I love the idea in theory. I'm not going to say I love it when I'm in the thick of it but I love the idea of sort of planting some seeds for readers. And I would say with this novel and with the Perfect Neighborhood, I had an idea of where it should begin and where it should end. And then trying to get through the middle is always a challenge and I do a lot of rewriting and looking at the timeline and seeing what should be added, what can go. But I think it almost is like a puzzle that I'm trying to put together. I think and I think it's hard.
Speaker 1:I'm sure you can relate to this. As the author, you're always wondering, okay, am I giving too much away or am I being too obscure? Like it's trying to strike that balance. And also I think readers of the genre really want twists. So sometimes I'll say I may not be writing a who done it as much as a why done it, you know, or kind of like, what are these people's motives or are they going to come out? Okay and so, but I do try to weave in a twist at the end, just so, so you don't get 100% reviewers saying I saw, yeah, that's awesome.
Speaker 2:Okay, let's pause there for a second. I really like the way Liz articulates, the way she structures her novels or maybe doesn't structure her novels. As she explains, she doesn't do much plotting and works her way through, which can be really difficult. And I do think with thrillers, mystery suspense and crime fiction, we're in a tricky place because the puzzle is one of the main things readers come for, but those things are often difficult to develop. Liz is able to pull it off masterfully, but it's clear that she has such an understanding of the genre that she's able to do it with minimal plotting. Has such an understanding of the genre that she's able to do it with minimal plotting. Before we get back to the interview, I want to share a piece of an article that Eloise Corvo wrote for Thriller101.com. It's about how to negotiate book contracts. She recently signed a book deal and negotiated the contract herself, and her article provides really valuable insights into that process. Here's a little piece of what she wrote.
Speaker 3:I started negotiating simply by asking questions. Looking back at the email, I asked six questions for clarity. This also included posing a couple of hypothetical scenarios and asking what would happen under the current language. I made sure I expressed my gratitude and enthusiasm during this email exchange. I'd hopefully be working with these folks for a while and I didn't want to sour the relationship right off the bat.
Speaker 2:If you want to know what she ended up amending in the contract, head to the link in the description where you can read that whole article. In the next part of the interview, liz and I talk about how she developed the dual points of view in her novel. I found it really interesting the way she structures the development of her characters. Where I tend to be really rigid when it comes to working with multiple points of view and I try to work on one character when I'm supposed to and another when I'm supposed to, liz seems a little bit more fluid. You'll see what I mean. Plus, she reveals her top piece of advice for aspiring writers who want to publish their novels. You won't want to miss that.
Speaker 2:And so I actually do want to talk a little bit about the structure of this novel, which you alluded to early on in a little bit there too, which is the dual point of view, and I want to ask you, because I think you did a great job of organizing the story with dual POV. I think sometimes authors use it as like almost like a gimmick, like they feel like they have to use dual POV and like one of the characters you just don't get nearly as much I'm like I'd rather have spent the whole book with one of the characters, but I feel like for yours it was so well done, it was so necessary to have both, and so I'm curious about your process for developing these point of views to have their own distinct I don't want to say plot lines, but like character arcs and voice and all that. What did that look like for you in the drafting process?
Speaker 1:That's a great question. I think I knew that each one of these women should have something in their past that they couldn't move forward from or that was still kind of haunting them. So I wanted them to each have their own story there. And then I was very cognizant of the time frame, that if something happened in Laurel's world on a Tuesday when we visit Corey, I need it to be, let's say, Thursday or Saturday. So that was really hard in revision, just kind of thinking, okay, does this line up, Is this making sense here? Because you never want to say, okay, well, wait, line up, Is this making sense here? Or, you know, because you never want to say okay, well, wait, it's already been Sunday in.
Speaker 3:Laurel's world. Why am?
Speaker 1:I back to Saturday. You know, am I time traveling here? So that was a challenge, but so in the end, kind of keeping it all straight was was rough, and but I think in terms of the voices Corey kind of came to me strong because she is more sarcastic and she's sort of her outlook on the world is rather bleak, and rightly so. So I think for me it was a little bit easier to stay in that sarcastic kind of voice, as opposed to Laurel who, as much as she loves her children, she is tired.
Speaker 1:She's a new mom in a new town and her husband kind of, you know, can't understand why she can't just get out there and make them some friends. So they're barbecues and parties and she's definitely not in that headspace, and so I think her writing, her scenes, were a little more challenging, because I also wanted to kind of balance that she wasn't such a downer. I didn't want to have two characters who were always sort of down. But you know, laurel, she does love her kids and she wants things to go well. It's just that she can't shake the sense that maybe they won't.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think it's so interesting, it's funny. Whenever I talk to people about the dual POV novels, it almost always I want to say always, but I'm sure someone will catch one place where it's not true, but it's almost always they have the voice of one character comes easier than the other. They just feel like maybe it like aligns more with their experiences or where they are, or just their voice in general, and so I think that's really common. I think something for people who are listening to hear like even people who are, you know, as talented and are writing great novels, like you, you still have to do the work of getting into a character's headspace that it just it doesn't come naturally all the time. Like maybe one voice will, one won't.
Speaker 2:I think that's really important for people who are listening, who are like oh you know, I want to be a writer someday, I want to be published one day. Like it's, it's the work right? Like the work is the work. Like you have to sit down and do it and getting into another character's headspace, it might be easier for one and another, and that doesn't mean that there's anything wrong. It just means you got to sit down and get to it. Is that kind of what?
Speaker 1:your experience has been Definitely and I also I feel very fortunate I have this writing friend. I love her. I jokingly refer to her as my secret weapon because I'll share pages with her and she will say to me I don't think Corey would do that.
Speaker 2:Oh, that's a good writing partner.
Speaker 1:She's amazing. I feel like she's such a wonderful find and a wonderful support. But she also has a great knack for giving critical feedback in an encouraging way and in a positive way. That makes you not want to give up, but what makes you want to get in there and be like all right, I'm going to get this right. So I really appreciate that. But she would call me out kind of like does that really sound like Corey, Does that sound more like Laurel? And so that really helped me. I feel like she kept me honest and I would hear her voice in my head kind of questioning when I made a word choice that I thought all right, that is a little more Laurel than Corey, so yeah, oh, that's great.
Speaker 2:That's a good person to have in your corner, for sure.
Speaker 1:It is. I know I can't ever lose my head.
Speaker 2:And so I'm curious when you're writing this, when you're drafting or even when you're editing, are you? Are you writing this linearly, the way that we read it, or are you writing these things like one character kind of all the way through to stay in that voice, and then another character, and weaving them together afterwards?
Speaker 1:It's pretty much linear. I will do. I would write some of Laurel and then I would know I needed to shift to Corey and then. So I wanted to kind of just be true to that timeline, even though I did get a little muddled and there were parts that I went back and I would kind of trim and add a new scene and then have to reevaluate where I am in the timeline. But I did pretty much write and I think we had talked about this with the Perfect Neighborhood. For me, sometimes, writing in these different voices, it's really helpful when I get stuck in one, like at one person, and I think, okay, you know what, maybe you don't have to take her any further here, maybe you just pop to the next character and see what she's up to. And it's almost like a cheat that I can. I'm going to put you on this shelf and I'm going to play with this other doll and oh, that's funny.
Speaker 2:That's a good way of thinking about it. I actually really like that of thinking about, you know, not forcing the issue. If you don't have to, you can kind of just say like, oh well, we've come as far as we can go at this point and we'll hop into somebody else. That's, that's great. So, thinking about people listening to this, people who are authors, want to be where you are, want to have published books and and you know, especially in the thriller suspense area, what do you think is like one piece of advice that you think for people to take away Is there. They're like you, you know, listening on their AirPods on a walk or in their car, and they're carrying on with their day. What's something, a piece of advice, that you'd like to send them on their way with?
Speaker 1:I would say join a writing group if you can, because I think especially I'm so guilty of this myself. I tell myself I'm going to write, and so many other things get in the way, and if I don't have someone to whom I'm accountable, expecting pages, then I'm not going to deliver. And I think in some of those times where I've taken writing workshops, like I can remember, I would have a workshop on a Tuesday and all weekend I'd think, all right, I'm going to write 10 pages, I'm going to write five pages, and then Tuesday it would just come pouring out of me because it had to, and sometimes I would be amazed and I would think I'm so glad I sat down to do this, because I never would have had this idea if I weren't forced to write this today for this class. And so, whether you take class or join like a meetup or just have friends, I used to meet in a library in a room maybe once a week with a couple of writer friends and we were all working on different genres.
Speaker 1:And that was fun too, because one woman was writing a memoir, I was writing a thriller, another was maybe working on something that was literary fiction, and so we got a nice mix and everybody was able to weigh in on what was working for them in your pages and what needed to be developed further. So I would say, you know you don't have to break the bank, but if you can find good people who will keep you writing and expecting those pages, and then weigh in. So because I think that is hard too, if you write an entire manuscript and you get to the end and you start sharing it with beta readers and you find out you veered wildly off course in chapter three. And let me tell you I have done this.
Speaker 3:So yeah, right.
Speaker 1:Right, I speak from experience. Or you know, I wrote something that I had loved and when I began to share it, people said like these side characters all feel like caricatures are not fully developed. You know, you really got to go back to the drawing board and if somebody had said that to me when they first started appearing on the page, that would have been really helpful.
Speaker 2:This is always so much fun to chat with you. I always enjoy our conversation. So last question for you is just where can people look you up? Where can people find you?
Speaker 1:Oh, thank you. My website is LizAltermancom and I'm pretty much under Liz Alterman at Instagram and X. My kids have begged me not to do much on TikTok but every once in a while I try to cobble together a video. But yeah, anywhere and readers can feel free to say hi. I'm also all about zooming into any book clubs, into any book clubs. If anyone chooses this book to discuss the themes at play, early days of motherhood, female friendships, any of that stuff, I'm always happy to pop in. It's always fun to meet readers. I think it makes all of those hours writing alone so gratifying.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's cool, so awesome. So if you're listening to this, definitely it's out today, so go pick up the House on Cold Creek Lane. What a great novel, so much fun to read. Can't recommend it enough. And, liz, as always, this is so much fun to talk to you too. Thanks so much for being here.
Speaker 1:Oh, David, thank you so much for having me. I look forward to all your future episodes. Thank you again.
Speaker 2:Okay, so that's it. I really enjoyed this conversation with Liz. It's always great talking to her. If you want to listen to the episode that we did previously, I've linked that in the description so you can check that out. If you haven't already, be sure to subscribe to the podcast so you get notifications when the next episode drops. I've got a lot of great interviews coming up in the next couple of weeks, as well as some episodes where I'll be sharing some insights that I've had over the course of my early career, and I really look forward to sharing that stuff with you. So be sure to subscribe and I will see you next week.