Doncaster Rovers / North London Derby / Liverpool / Relegation / Scottish VAR Report

We've got a brilliant two parter this week! 

Jamie is joined by Mike and Sheela in Part 1 to discuss the weekend's action!

 - The North London derby 
 - Liverpool's title ambitions are over, what next and a preview of what to expect from          Slot
 - Relegation round-up
 - A big Scottish VAR discussion after this week's independent report 

In Part 2 the lads have the absolute pleasure of welcoming Ricky Charlesworth from the Doncaster Free Press to discuss Doncaster Rovers' sensational form and rise up the table and a preview ahead of next weeks' play-off semi final two legs. 

All reviews, likes, shares and of course listens are hugely appreciated! Why not leave a review right now, it only takes a second!

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Thanks to all our contributors:

Ciaran Fowler for the artwork!
Ciaran Fowler for the logo! 
The intro music is a range of credits, the Thunderbirds, the Skids, and Sky Sports and Ray Hudson commentary... and of course Keith Ward! 
This podcast is in no way monetised (in fact it costs a fortune!).  

Transcript

Speaker 1 0:25

Hello and welcome to the Late Kickoff Football Podcast. I'm your host, jamie Guyon, and joined by Eva with Sheila. Sheila, how are you doing? Hi, I'm amazing, jamie. How are you? I'm fantastic too, mate, absolutely great. Really nice of you to ask, probably for the first time in 117 episodes, and also joining us, mike Wood. Mike, how are you getting on?

Speaker 2 0:47

Yeah, I'm good. Thanks, mate.

Speaker 1 0:49

Fantastic, great to hear and the first time in 117 weeks you haven't asked me how I'm doing, how rude.

Speaker 2 0:55

It's a pleasure to have you guys back.

Speaker 1 0:57

Plenty to talk about. As always, lots of good Premier League action and a few sort of existential talking points as well. We will start with the big games of the Premier League and the title race. We'll go on and have a little look at some of the other stories as well, involving the relegation zone, and everyone's favourite team to talk about, man United, will have a gander into the Championship in England and then also up to Scotland where the latest VAR report was released. Then we can get our teeth stuck into that.

Speaker 1 1:27

That'll do for part one, and then in part two, we're delighted to be joined by Ricky Charlesworth of the Doncaster Free Press and Rovers Chat podcast, who's going to jump on and talk to us about the absolutely incredible end to the season that Doncaster Rovers have had, as they qualified for the playoffs and they go on to play Crewe this coming week in the semi-finals, and everyone in the show will obviously be rooting for Doncaster now. So really looking forward to that. In part two, but without further ado, we'll start at the Tottenham Hotspur Stadium. Bryce plays it in. It's in 3-0. Kai Havertz with the header from Rice's corner and Arsenal are in such a great position.

Speaker 1 2:13

Fantastic game at the Tottenham Hotspur Stadium. It was a must win for Arsenal to keep their title hopes alive in what was an action-packed North London derby. A Heuberg-owned goal opened the scoring From one of many corners that plagued Tottenham all afternoon. Spurs looked close to drawing level as Romero hit the post and then Mickey van de Ven had a goal ruled out for the most marginal of offsides. Tottenham then had two almost simultaneous penalty appeals turned down before Arsenal immediately went up the other end and Saka made it 2-0. Another one of those in-swinging corners on 38 minutes and Havertz had made it three. Spurs hadn't done a whole lot wrong except, of course, their inability to defend corners and came out in the second half in much the same vein.

Speaker 1 2:59

Romero had another good chance from close range, and you might ask why. He was in the box for an attacking cross. But then, on 64 minutes, he was leading the press against Arsenal and a David Raya mistake gave him an empty net to make it 3-1. Late on, declan Rice gave Ben Davis some early birthday bumps and Son converted from the spot to make it 2-3 and set up a finish for Arsenal. That could only be described as tickly bum time, but Arsenal set up a finish for Arsenal that could only be described as tickly bum time. But Arsenal survived the late scare to win the derby and keep their title hopes alive. My classic game of two halves. This one. Arsenal were in absolute cruise control and then came very, very close to throwing the whole thing away.

Speaker 2 3:39

Yeah, I think in previous seasons Arsenal probably would have faced some of that pressure, but I don't think the result was necessarily ever in doubt even before the game.

Speaker 2 3:48

I think that you've seen the way that Tottenham have been playing up late, such as in frequency they've actually been playing games because they've got a lot of games to make up in recent times.

Speaker 2 3:57

Now I just think that Arsenal as a superior football team at this time, and Tottenham have quickly kind of fell away from the bright start that they had, because there's still a lot of weaknesses in that side and I think I'd say that's the game he wishes. More players were like Romero, who's obviously a World Cup winner and ferocious in the tackle, but also just the way that he leads, and quite literally leads from the front. As you said, think there's just Arsenal are a more fight side, they're a team goal for the title. They're pushing themselves ever close in the final few weeks of the season now and I just think at this moment they are better and it's kind of got away from the fact that now the Arsenal-Tottenham debate always used to be who's going to finish on top of one another, and now they gave it to on Wednesday, which that result meant Tottenham couldn't finish above Arsenal is really a thing of the most discussed.

Speaker 1 4:46

Yeah, absolutely Sheila. Arsenal are doing everything they possibly can to try and push the Manchester City juggernaut to the end of the season and you know they've come through a pretty difficult week in terms of fixtures and the performance was probably, for the most part, much and such as we've come to expect from them in Arteta this season.

Speaker 3 5:10

Yeah, it was mostly professional, other than some sort of Raya's mistake that let Spurs a glimmer of hope. But that's just sort of sums Arsenal up the last sort of month or two. They're just going about their business and sometimes it's not always brilliant from start to finish, but they get the job done in that period where they're just on top and yeah, they just really gave. The golfing quality between the two teams in the first half was unbelievable, especially when you know Spurs do play exciting football when they want. But it just seemed like Arsenal and Arteta were prepared for it, and that's probably the best way to say it, that Arteta is sort of prepared for particular opponents, particularly at the big six, if you like, or the top six, with Aston Villa aside, who he's not been able to figure out just yet, but very much willing to adapt his approach.

Tottenham's Season and Future Prospects

Speaker 3 6:06

So it wasn't certainly sort of Arsenal dominating the ball as they have done in previous games. They were quite content to play on the counter and when you've got that defensive base of Saliba, gabriel and White and then, you know, left back positions up for grabs, I suppose. But I mean N'Raya has performed well over the course of the season as well, other than you know, one clanger aside, and when you've got that defensive base, you're quite happy to kind of absorb pressure and you know, coming up against spurs, they are going to leave spaces at the back, despite having an olympic sprinter if I sent her back and he's not going to be there all the time. So, um, yeah, very, very, very, very well drilled arsenal, um, aside from a sort of a basket case last third of the game. But yeah, I think they'll be very chuffed, very, very chuffed yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 1 6:56

I just uh.

Speaker 1 6:57

I just muted my laptop there for two seconds to try and uh, stop the uh, you need to sort your um, your virus protection software notifications pop up and then realized that for obvious reasons it muted Sheila as well and I was like, oh, why can't I hear them all of a sudden.

Speaker 1 7:12

But obviously I agree with everything you said there. No joking aside, I only missed a couple of words. But Ange, mike, we've discussed several times as if plan A isn't working, do plan a better as a mentality to this side. Obviously started the season in extraordinary form 26 points from their first 10 games and they're kind of on course to have the worst finish of a team that started that well in the Premier League. But and I'm sure Spurs fans are probably still happy but there's got to be a little bit of questions as to whether in fact they would be disappointed, whether this kind of end to the season could be deemed a failure, and just the fact that the big teams in particular have kind of worked them out so quickly, and Ange doesn't seem to have found an antidote to that yet.

Speaker 2 8:07

I think it's the way they never seemed as good perhaps as they were for that strong start of the season that they had, and they're probably not as poor as they're perceived at this moment in time because they've got a lot of injuries and I know Ange doesn't want to deviate from the system. But I think he's putting the system in place to try and give the team a better culture and some way to move forward as an identity, where Spurs have obviously got this very Spursy tag on them and I think he's trying to move it from that and I think he's trying to build a connection with the fan base moving forward. But I think it's starting to slightly fracture not necessarily too much of a negative sense that people want him out, but they are unsure if this is the correct way of playing or the correct style. I mean he's saying things like if I think it's just going to defend and set plays is the key to all my problems and I'm not necessarily just going to focus on my energy on that, but I do think there is aspects that of course, will be disappointing, because you have such a strong start to the season, much like Liverpool when it tapers off at the end and you're always wondering what if I think in general for spurs to be in the top four race for this long and even though it's as the villa and they're going to neck off them I do, I do think there's no signs of progress in this team but obviously still needs a lot of welcome to. I know vanderbilt's coming and he plays the style that Ange wants to play in terms of sweeping up from the back. The Vittario, the goalkeeper, looks very impressive, but you're down to the bare bones now when you've got Emerson Roy. I was going to have to play left-back at the weekend because Ben Davies is injured and Udogi's cropped for the rest of the campaign as well.

Speaker 2 9:40

The front four is a bit all over the shop in this middle of the time. Son doesn't seem to be in the impressive form that he has been in recent months. Madison's been off the ball since his injury. They're just turning. Charleston's been in and out this side as well.

Speaker 2 9:53

Just the middle of the park's never quite fitted, obviously. Heuberg started his first game in months and he's never looked quite confident in what Ange wants him to do. So I think there's still a lot of cosmetic work that needs done and they're obviously in the first. First to try and really have an approach and try and get into the Champions League once again, because I think Ange said as well, it's like, even if they did get into the as well, they had one season in the Champions League but not at the group stages and they've not been able to bench back and you see a lot of their problems in squad building as well, so it's not like they're on end off. They did make fourth or they didn't make fourth. They've got to make the next step forward, but I think there's still a in this season overall.

Speaker 1 10:41

Yeah, definitely, and if English teams gave it the respect it deserved, I think getting into the Europa League would have been good for Tottenham and a competition that they would have a chance of winning and give European silverware to Spurs would be fantastic. They haven't won anything. I think Was it 2008 when they won the Carabao Cup?

Speaker 2 11:02

Was the last something like that.

Transfer Market Trends and Liverpool Struggles

Speaker 1 11:04

So it'd be massive and to continue to build the mood there. I'm not suggesting that that's the height of their ambition, but there's nothing wrong with going up the rungs of the ladder on the way to where you want to be, and I think that would be. I think that would be really good for them and, as you say, sometimes getting into the Champions League and putting all your eggs in that group stage basket just to get dumped out anyway and we've seen what's happened with Newcastle It'll be interesting to see who they sign in the summer. Ange, certainly at Celtic, did very well at kind of finding those hidden gems to improve in certain positions. I'm curious whether he can kind of, after a season now, carry that sort of international, non-european knowledge he's got to Spurs and perhaps some of the gems they pick up. I don't know, mike, maybe a bit surprising he hasn't gone and dipped in at Celtic so far and probably won't now. You would have thought into a third transfer window.

Speaker 2 12:02

Yeah, I think I mean, if there's one Celtic player that you think perhaps could make the leap and he was high on Liverpool's radar when he was at MK Dons was Matt O'Reilly, and you probably see he's itching for a move now, how long he's spent with Celtic and how impressive he was, especially across the first half of the campaign, and Andrew brought out the best of him. And if you talk about the kind of issues in the midfield I know he's not necessarily a battler, but he has done it from a deeper position under Rodgers as well. Maybe that'd be one player, I think, in a perfect world. If Kyogo was five years younger, he perhaps would have brought him to Spurs, but because he's approaching 30 now it doesn't seem really viable.

Speaker 2 12:46

Outside of that, I don't think there's too many options to dip back into the Celtic team and get maybe a badder if the situation was ideal, because he was young, up and coming, but he's obviously going to Charlotte for a good price as well. So I don't think there's too many options now if that Celtic that he'd be going for, or even anybody else in the Scottish market, to be honest, and they had the gems. Really I don't know how much say he has over transfers, necessarily, I imagine he has. He has a decent, he's got a decent pool, but you do wonder how much really Daniel Levy is going to spend the purse strings, because we always know he's quite frugal with his money as he's on.

Speaker 1 13:30

Yeah, although I suppose they haven't really cashed in on the Harry Kane money per se yet, have they? James Madison was a big money signing, but the rest not so much. So perhaps interesting to see if there is a few quid lying about. But I think perhaps the player market, as well as the managerial market which we've discussed in recent weeks, is maybe as kind of mundane as it's been for for a long, long time. It doesn't feel like there's a whole host of really exciting players that everyone's kind of vying for, or certainly not from a Premier League perspective. Anyway, we're not kind of. In years gone by, chelsea have had a list of 10 possible superstars, spurs the same, liverpool the same City the same. I feel like we're going into this summer and there's nobody that you're like, or he's a really obvious target for all the Premier League teams. Who's going to get him? I don't know.

Speaker 3 14:22

Maybe that's financial fair play, sheila, maybe it's just one of these cycles where there isn't necessarily yeah, I think that's Definitely, if I think financial fair play is coming into play there, when it's like you know, we have to be careful what we spend here, because we need to recoup it if we're going to spend it. And yeah, they've it. They got Madison at what was essentially a bargain price. What was it? £40 or so million, something like that.

Speaker 3 14:52

Which is bargaining today's money for a player of James Madison's calibre. It's just that you don't think that there's anybody. I don't think there's not enough talent out there that anybody's looking for. I think it's just more so that the players that you would think that these teams would be after are not in any sort of hurry to move, if that makes any sense. For example, say if Leverkusen had finished second, for example, you would think that Florian Wurz and Frank Pong and all that would be available because they would want to move on.

Speaker 3 15:25

But because they've won the league and Xabi Alonso's staying, it seems that they're quite satisfied with that. They're not in any sort of hurry to move and in the traditional sort of teams that you would go and buy from, like maybe a Dortmund or something like that, they're in a bit of a transition as well, where they don't have an exciting young star who's going to be the next Haaland or the next Bellingham or anybody like that. I think it's maybe, just I don't think it'll last long enough, but I think everybody that you would think is going to improve, the team is happy and settled, rather than where the team's itching for a move Sorry, players itching for a move to the Premier League. It doesn't really seem that that's the case.

Speaker 1 16:07

No, completely. Even Inter, as we were discussing before, we came on winning the Italian league as a team made up of a slightly older cohort and ex-Premier League players and whatnot in there as well. It's not like it's a team that you could kind of take a raiding party to, necessarily. We'll move on then to the next game and to the London Stadium where West Ham played Liverpool, bowen and Antonio.

Speaker 2 16:44

West Ham back on terms.

Speaker 1 16:49

That was West Ham 2, liverpool 2. This was another must-win game, this time for Liverpool to keep their title hopes alive. Jared Bowen gave the hosts the lead after 43 minutes, as Liverpool squandered countless chances in the first half minutes, as Liverpool squandered countless chances in the first half. Klopp clearly got into the players and Liverpool were levelled through Andy Robertson after 48 minutes. Shortly thereafter, a rather unfortunate Areola own goal made it 2-1 to the visitors, as the ball seemed to pinball off of half the West Ham team before crossing the line. But a terrific Mikel Antonio Hedda made it 2-2. And then the game's strangest incident still to come, late on, but the match finished all square Sheila title race over for Liverpool, short of any complete and utter miracles from this point. But it was just another Liverpool performance that in the last three, four weeks has become completely the norm Poor at the back and completely unruthless in front of goal.

Speaker 3 17:54

Yeah, absolutely. The amount of chances they've missed is unbelievable. No matter what sort of selection you put in the front three, they're all equally bad for missing the same sort of chance. It's not like Nunes is an outlier and everybody else is ruthless, they're all the same.

Speaker 3 18:12

But the whole line-up you said in your wee intro there a must-win game not judging by the line-up that Klopp went for, it didn't seem like a must-win game. It was rather a confusing line-up, if I'm being perfectly honest Salah missing, nunes missing, sobislai missing I think McAllister did start, but he'd missed out on one of their previous games. Konati not on the team, it was Kwanzaa centre-back Harvey Elliott did he start? No, he did so it was just a somewhat strange line-up and I think one of the boys in our group chatted and said it's nice to see that Klopp's completely given up on the league and I think that was somewhat accurate.

Speaker 3 18:56

I mean, yeah, even though the gap is not that much in terms of points, but like you don't expect City or Arsenal to drop any points to let Liverpool back in, but nevertheless you've still got to try and put some pressure on because you never know, and obviously Klopp's in the middle of his farewell tour and it's a bit of a shame that it's ending with a sort of a whimper rather than alright, maybe not win the league, but at least push Arsenal and City as hard as they can.

Speaker 3 19:24

And it's a bit a damp squib and not win the league, but at least push Arsenal and City as hard as they can. It's a bit of a damp squib. I think we said this in the other chat, where we might be wrong, but his placement is rather underwhelming as well, considering some of the names that were touted when he first announced he was leaving. You've ended up with the Feyenoord manager. That comes off very disrespectful. Truth be told, I don't know very much about him and I hope I'm wrong and he's the next big thing, but I think it's just like if you asked Liverpool supporters who would they want the day after Klopp had announced he was leaving, I don't think Slott would have been high up on many people's list.

Speaker 1 20:09

You'd have been the hipster of all hipsters if you were cracking out Slott the day after Klopp announced his retirement. It'd have been some absolute wanker that's read a couple of international articles, standing in the pub sipping on his gamma ray, telling everyone that Slot was the next big thing. Before we come on to Slot because we're rather relying on Mike filling us in on how successful or otherwise he's going to be there was a couple of bizarre incidents in this game, the first of which, mike, was Salah and Klopp having a little tiff on the sidelines. I enjoyed the sort of over-analysis of this on Match of the Day where they start highlighting Salah. It was almost like a here's Salah job as he's standing on the sideline, which was fantastic.

Speaker 1 21:04

I don't know if you boys seen a bit of a tangent, but in terms of like over-analysing situations, it was like Matt Ritchie got his HGV licence this week because his missus has horses and so he can drive the horse van, which is fair enough, and Eddie Howe was asked about it and said yeah, matt Ritchie, he's always trying to improve himself in like the most football manager response of all time.

Speaker 3 21:30

He's going to drive the key bus, though.

Speaker 1 21:31

Yeah exactly. And then on the it's not the overlap on Stick to Football, jamie Carragher and Roy Keane are talking about animated films and Roy Keane says, oh, shrek, yeah, shrek's really good. And Jamie Carragher goes yeah, but Toy Story was just a level above, like proper it's, like that's the only way he knows how to talk, is in football cliches, like he does the hand movement and everything like raising his hand, like, yeah, toy Story just had a level above Shrek there, when it really mattered, when it really counted an absolute great week for football clichés finding themselves in strange places.

Speaker 1 22:12

But sorry, mike, the question was about Sal and Klopp having a tiff and maybe a sort of sad end to both of their Liverpool legacies.

Speaker 2 22:24

Well, I mean apparently, apparently, salah's the end, but whether that's just posturing for Liverpool to get a higher fee from Sardinia. I think, because did they not offer £150 million?

Speaker 3 22:33

in the window last season. Yeah, it was in that ballpark.

Speaker 2 22:37

To maybe try and entice them back to the table. Because I think if you're on the slot you want Salah to go Not that he's not an exceptional player, but you don't want that hanging over your first season in charge of a guy who might be a bit of a dickhead and you need to try and win him over. In the first aspect and I think it's just a bit of an the manager's leaving. So at the end of the day it doesn't particularly matter how you behave with him. I know Klopp can be spiky himself, but for me it's a bit of a non-issue. It just doesn't look. It just doesn't look great, but for me it's a bit of a non-issue. But it just goes to show you like once Klopp says he's going not that mystique kind of goes, but like you know that there's a new manager coming in that you've got to impress, you don't have to be on the top of your standards, and I think I've seen it with Emma Hayes, who's the Chelsea women's manager. They've kind of had a meagre end to the season after a long time that she's had at the club. You've seen them in Fuggy. That had well. Sydney kind of fell flat at the end of that 0-1-0-2 season.

Speaker 2 23:43

So I do think it's not like it's the wrong decision for Klopp to say that he's leaving, but it's just. You all see a kind of drop off. But we've said this already like Liverpool were always the outlier in this kind of title race, they went behind again in the game against West Ham and they've got to try and claw it. I just think that it's just a case that, a bit like Tottenham as well, they weren't as strong as they were from the start and they're not as poor as they are in the last few weeks of the season. They're the happy medium and I think they're still ahead of schedule.

Speaker 2 24:12

I think when Arne Schlott comes in, I think he's in a much better position of strength than he was a year ago, because you just see Kl strain like I don't think he said anything in that interview when he was leaving. That's incorrect or he was wrong. He's just got nothing left in the tank. He's not got another level to go up. He's just emotionally drained from the six or seven years that he's been in the post yeah, I think that's probably right.

Discussion on Klopp's Legacy and Rivals

Speaker 1 24:35

Maybe it's one we'll come on to more kind of in the season round up and stuff. But I do genuinely without trying to be contrary for the sake of it question the level of Klopp's legacy. If you're not a Liverpool fan, I'm sure Liverpool fans will view him a certain way and probably always will do. But just sort of the level of that legacy and I think actually the outcome of this title race could have quite a big impact on it as well. Because I think if Arsenal go on to win the league, then when you're talking about the Klopp-Pett rivalry, the City-Liverpool rivalry, the fact that these teams push each other so far so often yet Mikel Arteta and Arsenal won just as many leagues in that time as Liverpool did it paints a bit of a funny picture, and it does just.

Speaker 1 25:24

I was going to say it's a bit of a funny picture and it does just. I was going to say it's a bit of a shame. It's actually not. It's fucking hilarious. It's ending in a complete and utter disaster for Klopp and for Salah and they're arguing with each other at the touchline and, to be honest, with three games to go, I'd quite enjoy it to continue to be this much of a disaster and hopefully, I think, are Liverpool away to Chelsea at the weekend. Have I got that right?

Speaker 3 25:45

Yeah.

Speaker 2 25:49

I think they are.

Speaker 1 25:50

They are. Yeah, I think they are. It'd be nice if Chelsea could get under their skin. They're not very good at the moment.

Speaker 3 26:00

They're at home to Tottenham. Oh, they're at home to Tottenham, sorry.

Speaker 1 26:03

Okay. Well, ange can get under the skin. Ange is quite an annoying bloke, you know. He doesn't have much about him. Well, he's always miserable. He has a lot about him, he's always miserable. Hopefully they get under the skin instead.

Speaker 1 26:15

Well, richarlison will probably get a game with Werner being injured, so maybe he can stick it to to, maybe he can stick it to Klopp. I'd love that. I'd love just to see him get really, really properly wound up and completely lose his rag for these last few games. I think there's something about Liverpool and man United that it doesn't matter what happens. Seeing those two clubs fail will always be the better of the options. West Ham probably not much to say on them, oh sorry, yeah. One final incident in this game, christ, I nearly skipped past. It was the Cody Gakpo and Areola incident. I'm sure everyone's seen it, but you know. Areola clashes with a post and Anthony Taylor plays the advantage, tells him to hurry up. Areola throws the ball out, bends over to, picks his socks and, just as Gak goes away to tap it into an empty net, anthony Taylor blows his whistle. I'll come to you boys first. Sheila, how did you see it?

Speaker 3 27:17

I thought it was probably the right outcome. To be honest, just common sense. He's clearly in some sort of discomfort. The game's broken down, so you know it made sense to just kind of stop it. I think, again, it just shows you how sort of how much of this title race has fell apart for Liverpool that they're making a big fuss about this type of incident where, like you know, if you took any of your thousand chances over the previous month or so, you'd be well in the title race and this would be inconsequential. So I think that's part of it, that the frustration in the Liverpool team has built up, that they're willing to argue the toss-up or something like this, rather than just, you know, accept it's something that happened and move on, try and win the game. Yeah, absolutely Mike.

Speaker 2 28:01

Yeah, I think in the spirit of the game. Yeah, it's absolutely correct. The bit I didn't like was Anthony Taylor trying to cover his own arse. He's like no, no, the physio has to come on. Actually, you see, you can't be up here. So that's the only bit I didn't like. Just kind of admit your mistake. You should have. You should have just blown your whistle when he climbed. The bit of force kills the game. He gets the treatment or he doesn't get the treatment, and then you just go on from there, because I think you've seen Anthony Taylor going, I've made a bit of an arsonist, but you've come to the right conclusion and then it just doesn't look great for one of the better officials in the league.

Speaker 1 28:39

Yeah, I actually think that's the way of putting it like the situation comes around, because Anthony Taylor doesn't deal with it initially in probably the best way, but that still does the right thing. It was funny. I swear his mouth into Areola. Just accept treatment. Just sit down and accept treatment. Please give it away to himself.

Speaker 3 28:58

You don't even need to go off.

Speaker 4 29:01

Where's?

Speaker 3 29:01

his sword, just give it away.

Speaker 1 29:06

He's clearly trying to keep the game flowing because Areola's got the ball and he's saying play on. And then for me, the way Areola's buckled over is he's still sort of getting himself together. Taylor's blowing the whistle so he can get treatment slash, stop the game, like. It's also the absolute prime example of a referee, whichever way round the referee did. Also the absolute prime example of a referee, whichever way round the referee did. That situation.

Speaker 1 29:31

Fans would have gone mad If Gatko had rolled that into an empty net and Anthony Taylor gave the goal and Areola was bent over. Twitter would have gone fucking mental at Anthony Taylor for not having any common sense. Just apply common sense. Areola clearly thinks the game's stopped. He clearly thinks he's injured. You know how can you let that goal stand? Match of the day would have been going mental. But instead you've got Ian Wright saying he's had an absolute howler which is, you know, just a ridiculous thing to say and Alan Shearer saying he should have just stuck it in the net anyway. As if there's some kind of like fucking playground rules where, even though Anthony Taylor's blown his whistle, if Gatpo puts it in the back of the net, the goal would have stood somehow.

Speaker 1 30:06

Yeah, it was a bizarre incident. I think, as Mike's just said, Taylor had to. Taylor just had to blow his whistle as soon as the goalie's lying on the floor inside his own box. What's, what is there to gain from it? Being able to take your goal kick from eight yards further forward. It's very unusual that goalies it's not amateur football where the goalie's like for fuck's sake, I can't kick it from the ground. I wanted it in my hands so that I can actually get it up the pitch. I think Areola's probably pretty comfortable whether it's a free kick or open play. But that was all for the actual game. We've touched on Slott coming in Mike. He, as Sheila said, he actual game. We've touched on slot coming in Mike. He, as Sheila said. He's not a sexy appointment, that's for sure, and Dutch managers of late probably haven't done particularly well in the Premier.

Speaker 3 30:55

League especially bald ones.

Speaker 1 30:57

Yeah, exactly another bald Dutch manager obviously springs to mind Louis van Gaal. Probably didn't have the best time here, you would say maybe Goose Hiddink, but he was obviously only in kind of interim charge. So what can you tell us about big Arnie's slot? And please make sure it concludes with Liverpool finishing in the bottom half next season.

Speaker 2 31:20

Well, if you just look at, like the Runds-McKell, one of the managers of the year for the Eredivisie, you look at like the Runes-Miquel winner of the manager of the year for the Eredivisie, you look at all these names, like you said, gus Hiddink's won it, Lou Van Halen's won it, steve McLaren's won it, coombe and Frank de Boer, thot Kuku, dan Ags won it three times and Ali Shudder-Schlotz, the newest manager to win it. So it's not like a great James have transposed themselves over to England. He's one of these pet perverts. I mean, he loves the way that he plays the game. I think it's going to be 4-2-3-1, and it's going to be very much control-based. I think it's not an issue in terms of the way he can transpose that into the Liverpool team, because I think they're very capable of that. I think you can see Trent playing more into the double pivot now, more so than right back. But I think the issue is you're not going to beat Pep by playing his own game with inferior resources. So I think that's the first issue he's going to come across.

Speaker 2 32:15

I think part of the reason Dutch managers don't transition well is because maybe they're more direct in their language than they are perhaps the English they're used to. So I think that's why it cuts across in test competition season that way. So I think it could be confrontational, which I think will be an issue with the media. But by all accounts, I know he's finished second PSV, who have been outstanding this season, but his points per game record is as good this season as it was last season when he won with Feyenoord, and he's won the cup competition with them as well, and Feyenoord is a bigger name in the Dutch scene. He perhaps don't win as much as perhaps perceived otherwise, like PSV would. So he's come and he's done a brilliant job on meager resources, but again he's taken over um from, like giovanni van bronckhorst, and we seen how he ended up in our rangers as well. So I think it's a very analytic driven process what michael edwards has been at the helm for, and I can understand that, how you're trying to transpose something to a group of players that perhaps work. But I do see like there's a lot of faults in it and I think the fact he's got the job is mainly because Jabby Alonso said no to it. So he's coming in as second choice as well and I do think there'll be an issue with him and the players, necessarily, because we'll have to get Van Dijk onside.

Speaker 2 33:35

Probably Gravenburch as well, obviously is the Patriots and ideally, ideally, that wins them some time, because I think, like Ten Hag and like some of these other managers that we mentioned, they just seem to run out of steam very quickly, and I don't know if that's just because the way that they mesh with other players from other cultures doesn't particularly work because of the way that perhaps Dutch people are. So I do think there could be a lot of issues coming into it, but I do think it's a kind of swerve away from the Klopp style of football and more of the Pep style of football. So I don't know if this is how I'm going to take to that either. So I do think there is some issues with the appointment to be. A lot of question marks very quickly about Schlott. If he can't run people around immediately and obviously have to get his recruitment right. There's some issues in that side, but I think for the most part it's an interesting appointment, but I think it's going to be successful in the long term probably not.

Speaker 1 34:37

Yeah, it's all really interesting. I've seen a lot of comparisons to Kl Klopp sort of getting a manager from the unfancied team in their league, but I think that's stretching a little bit, given that Klopp had won back-to-back leagues over Bayern Munich in Germany and had also got them to the Champions League final in 2013. Klopp's CV was of elite European pedigree, which slots probably isn't at the moment, which, as you say, doesn't necessarily mean it won't be um a success, and I do think the uh, the culture clash in sport between british media and um dutch athletes is quite interesting. Bizarrely, I was having this conversation with my dad this very week, but in the context of max verstappen, uh, in f1, and perhaps some of the reason that British racing fans don't warm to him in the same way that European racing fans did is, I think, just the nature of the way that Dutch athletes sort of conduct themselves, which isn't.

Speaker 1 35:38

I'm not suggesting that that is wrong. I think, as you said, mike, it just the way it kind of clashes against our probably over politeness, as it's seen elsewhere in Europe, and we've very much seen that with Ten Hag in the Premier League. We've seen it. You know we were recording this podcast when he got the job. We've seen it in his like very first couple of days the way he was acting with Sky Sports. I've forgotten the guy's name that he basically told to fuck off at his car.

Premier League Relegation and City's Dominance

Speaker 1 36:04

Yeah, yeah, yeah, outside the training ground it's like day two and he's telling the Sky Sports presenter to do one and all the United fans are like, yeah, get him out of Sky Sports. This guy's going to be a success, this is great. And then you know, two years later, that's how he's speaking to his players and still speaking to the media, and it's sort of no surprise that from a relationship perspective, it's all come crashing down. So that'll certainly be something that Slott will need to be cautious of. But yeah, it's interesting, as you say, having Gravenberg and Van Dijk there. Assuming Van Dijk hangs around will possibly help him as well.

Speaker 1 36:42

And you just need to have a sort of I think it's true of any Liverpool manager. You need to have a sort of size of personality to take on that club. It's arguably the biggest club in England it's only going to be them or Manchester United and from a city with an enormous personality and history in itself. So it's probably one of two, but if not the most difficult job, I would say, for an individual manager to take over, because you're almost coming in as like a political, stately figure in that city if you're the manager of Liverpool, much more so than you would say the manager of any other team in England in the way that they carry themselves and the way that they influence the locality there.

Speaker 1 37:32

Hopefully his first interview with Sky Sports isn't by telling the journalists to fuck off and that might be a sign of things to come. Any more for any more on Liverpool or West Ham, no, moving on to sort of any other business stage really. But touch on Forrest against Manchester City, city winning that game 2-0, despite being well and truly trounced on the XG charts largely in no part to Chris Woods big Luton fan, that he is deciding to miss a couple of obvious chances. I'm sure the fans are absolutely furious, but Sheila Nuno seems to have a little bit of a game plan against City and it could have, you know, it's one of those on another day, if Forest can take their chances a bit, like we've just said with Liverpool, could have gone very very differently.

Speaker 3 38:29

Well, I mean, I suppose for Nuno it's kind of nice to you know, we know his style is somewhat pragmatic, so it's probably a wee bonus for him that you know he's forced to play his ID, he's forced into his comfort zone, but with nothing really to lose. Outside sort of the chasing relegations they do have stuff to lose, but I mean like it's playing City, so no one's going to be like, well, you're fucking lost against City, you're numpty, everyone takes points off City. That's obviously not the case. So he was kind of forced into his comfort zone. And for us, you know, for all of our pitfalls, they do have some exciting players like Gibbs White Alanga. He would put Trist Wood in the exciting times when he wants. He is a capable Premier League striker.

Speaker 3 39:14

Just not based on the evidence of that game in particular. Yeah, it's just, I think just it's just come at the wrong time. If this was a performance that had happened in February, we'd be like, oh well, sorry, norwich had played quite well and were unlucky to come away with nothing. But because games are February, we'd be like, oh well, you know, city, sorry Norwich. Norwich Forrest, rather, had played quite well and were unlucky to come away with nothing. But because games are running out, those are guilt-edge chances. You have to take them. It's as simple as that.

Speaker 3 39:40

And he missed one against I think it was Spurs, when they were getting beat 2-1 or it was either 1 one or two one, and all he has to do is sort of tap it in and he leathers it against the post from a few yards out. Those are just horrific chances to miss and it did like it wasn't even like the one where he just sort of scuffs it, just a fresh air swipe. It's just really sort of embarrassing and it's just not what you need. From the sort of the eye of the storm that is not on forest at the moment, when you know the, the Howard Webb comes out and basically says, yeah, they probably should have had one penalty, but a lot of that is still kind of open to interpretation.

Speaker 3 40:18

The other two will sort of unanimously agree that they weren't penalties and the referee got it right and it's just sort of all sort of coming apart just at the wrong time. Burnley have seemingly turned a corner. We don't know if that'll last, but they're the three teams that are sort of still vying for safety. Burnley would probably be favourites, you would suggest yeah, it's interesting kind of how that's sort of found itself.

Speaker 1 40:44

Just quickly to touch on City Mike, before we come on to the relegation battle. They're just a juggernaut, aren't they? If Arsenal don't win the league this year, given how genuinely incredible they've been for now, the full length of the season notwithstanding, three games to go. It just shows the ludicrous levels that you need to get to in these last five, six seasons compared to the 90s and the noughties, and even most of the tens whatever, what do we call them? The teams, the tens. Anyway, it shows the levels that they've set and kind of how astronomically difficult it is for anyone else in the league to catch them.

Speaker 2 41:31

Yeah, and it's not necessarily going to be a mammoth points total as we've seen in the past. We're going to put on a setback in Tender. Now it's up like 99, 100 points. City haven't dropped points since the Arsenal game. They've won each of the last five as well. So they've kind of, I'd say, bridged back from that setback. They probably would have obviously preferred to win that game and that would have put the title out of sight, potentially on the road.

Speaker 2 41:54

But yeah, the way they go about it, that Haaland goal was Haaland back to his best, you know. I mean taking a few touches to set his feet and then just right onto the back of the net. And very few teams can have that level of quality and maybe, talking Real Madrid at this moment in time, who could match that kind of lethargy in the front three. And, yeah, arsenal are doing everything that they can, but it's just very hard to stay with City. I mean this is going to be the first time in English football history for City going to win the title, that they've successfully retained it, which is a feat within itself.

Speaker 2 42:29

Now obviously it's caveat with 115 charges against financial fair play and everything that goes with that as well, but very few managers, even with all the rich resources that Manchester City do have, would be able to replicate the success that Pep's had. So I've got to say fair play to them, if they do go on to do it. They've lost the least amount of games in the season, with only three, so in many ways they'd be fitting victors of the title. But yeah, if Arsenal don't win it this season, then who's really going to challenge City in the years to come? As long as Pep's there because I've seen he was 300 games in charge of Manchester City I think there's only five managers, or four managers in the Paris club next season in terms of managing more games with one respective club in the Premier League. So it's dominance a long period of time as well for Pep and, yeah, it's just very hard to see past him as long as he's at the helm.

Speaker 1 43:22

Yeah, and he'll be the longest serving manager in the league, with Klopp leaving as well. It just shows his longevity there. And yeah, they're the team that well, it just shows his longevity there. They're the team that kids now will want to finish in the bottom half for the rest of their lives, given the level of dominance they've exerted over the last decade or so. But on that relegation battle, sheila was touching on it just there.

Speaker 1 43:46

Everton are now mathematically safe, which is quite the feat for them, given where they were probably all of three weeks ago. And with the points deductions, sheffield United are mathematically relegated the least surprising news of the season so far. That's kind of been writing on the wall for some time and they're going to finish with one of the poorer points totals that you'll go down with. But, sheila, you were saying you know Burnley are probably now the ones that have given themselves the best chance of getting out of this situation, despite actually still being 19th rather than 18th and find themselves a point behind Luton at the bottom of the league. But they've only lost one in their last five and they'll probably just be disappointed that they haven't turned some of those draws into wins. They absolutely battered man United and should have won, and they gave away silly points against Wolves and Brighton it was. But with three games to go, they're two points adrift and they're the team that have given themselves sort of belief, I guess.

Speaker 3 44:57

Yeah, I mean, look, it's kind of. We've given the company a fair amount of slagging on this podcast over the duration of the season, and most of it justified, but things are coming together at the right time. I mean, obviously they've still got a hurdle to overcome if they're going to stay up. But yeah, they're kind of yielding the results to stay in the course and they've not panicked and they've stuck to their strategy and it seems to like the players have come to grasp with what's required in the league if you're going to pick up points. So I hope I'm not really bothered.

Speaker 2 45:32

I'm being honest, whether it's.

Speaker 3 45:33

Forrest or Burnley, but you know to string the sentence together. I hope it sort of does come together at the right time and they can actually push Forrest, because I think, as you said last week, forrest have done themselves no favours in sort of getting the sort of the neutrals support like, given the way they've carried on the past couple of weeks and the actions of their chairman or whoever's in charge of their Twitter, doing a lot to damage public support for them staying up. I think I don't know if Mike's opinion on it is, but I think I'd be quite happy to see them down, just because it'd be funny to see the absolute meltdown that would follow, given how they treated Cooper when he was doing a fairly reasonable job.

Speaker 1 46:16

So yeah, yeah, I completely agree. Of all those teams, it's Fulham you want to see go, it's Luton you probably want to see stay up. But I finally pulled it off. Fair play, and there'd have to be a lot of kudos to Vince and company for managing to sort of get there in the end as well. It would be quite a remarkable, great escape for them if they pull off with three games to go, I think as well. Whoever stays up, the league is just going to be a whole different ballgame. Pardon the pun.

Speaker 1 46:47

Next season I think we're going to see a whole host of change, I suspect in the middle of the league. In terms of managers Mike, you were touching on it before we recorded Bournemouth's run of form, since we were talking about them as a relegation team puts them only outside the top three. In the last big chunk of games it's seen them get a record points total, probable top-half finish. Gary O'Neill at Wolves seems to be building something. The Zerbys are probably going to leave Brighton and that'll be an interesting proposition next season.

Speaker 1 47:24

Crystal Palace are only getting going under new management and racking up a decent amount of points, and then that's notwithstanding the quality of the three teams that are likely to join them.

Speaker 1 47:37

And on that, having a look at the championship, leicester were confirmed as champions this week, jamie Vardy in classic Jamie Vardy form, absolutely rifling one in from you know, all of a yard and a half away to make sure.

Championship Promotion and Premier League Drama

Speaker 1 47:54

And they were obviously a surprise relegation last season. Well, a surprise relegation for everybody except Keiran that predicted it before the season got going. So it was expected that they were to come back up, but they've done it in a pretty spectacular fashion, playing some great football back up. But they've done it in a pretty spectacular fashion, playing some great football. And it looks um. You know almost certainly, mike, that ipswich will join them and that's two teams that, based on this season, you expect could have an impact or a genuine impact on the premier league next year, sort of unlike the promoted teams we've we've had for the last 10 months yeah, I mean I'm switching considering how far below they were, runners up to Pernath Argyle, who's in relegation issues this season but, like a lot of people, actually backed Epswich to maybe not finish in the top two positions but certainly in the playoffs.

Speaker 2 48:41

The way that Kieran McKenna's got them going, so much so that he's a target for Brighton if the Zerbe does eventually leave. And now that Rangnick's not going to Bayern Munich there's maybe a possibility of that kind of combination happening. But the way the Championship done season, I mean it's quite top-heavy because Leeds are on 90 points. They're going to be the first team of Ipswich Town, especially in the last game of the season, to make 90 points and not get automatic promotion. Stephampton on 84,.

Speaker 2 49:09

I know they've kind of slipped back in recent weeks with three successive losses, but you're going to have, whether it's Ipswich, leeds or Stephampton, you're probably going to get a team that's very unlucky or unfortunate not to make the Premier League season. So I think it's going to be a greater calibre of teams, especially for all three behind Spar, because obviously they've not had much time to adjust. They've got a lot of the same players that they had in the Premier League campaign and they can build upon from there. But I hope to switch to Stenbach in the top flight. It would be a nice, refreshing change and considering they've only lost six games all season in a 46 games campaign, that is mightily impressive.

Speaker 2 49:47

And obviously this is a guy whose stock's only going up and up and it's long gone from the days of like Mick McCarthy and terrible football that eventually got them relegated. But yeah, the Championship's got a harder and harder proposition to try and get out of and you're seeing a lot of like managers going to that level now from decent calibre of clubs as well, to get their foot in the door to try and get into the Premier League as well. So I think it's going to be like fascinating just how their playoffs kind of shake out. And then, yeah, I think it's. I think the Premier League next season is going to be much more exciting because I don't think there is going to be necessarily the dross just cut off at the bottom for most of the campaign yeah, absolutely, I think you're spot on it's.

Speaker 1 50:26

You look at the championship and it's good that Ipswich are almost certain to come up, because otherwise it's a fucking who's who of yo-yo teams over the last five or six seasons, isn't it? You know Leicester, leeds, southampton, norwich and West Brom, middlesbrough have fallen away. You know, if Hull creeped into the playoffs on the last day and came up, they haven't been in the top flight for a long time. But yeah, it's nice that Ipswich will sort of give us something interesting and different to talk about, a bit like Luton did this season, but playing a different style of football. And Norwich, if they came back up again, it would be like, yeah, kind of fucking sick, fed up in Norwich in the Premier League. That said, a Norwich-Ipswich Derby in the top flight in England. When was the last time there was one of them?

Speaker 2 51:13

you must be going back 30 if not, if not further maybe the start of the Premier League when Norwich were flying high, maybe Ipswich in every round of that period of time. But yeah, I can. There's been too many naff at the derby in the top flight for quite a while.

Speaker 1 51:29

I'd say it'd be interesting. I really don't want it to happen because I don't want Norwich to get promoted because, as I've just said, bored shitless of them. But if Leeds or Southampton or West Rock came up, that'd be interesting. And, like you say, I think the Premier League next season is going to be bonkers. We've kind of had. We're probably going to have the lowest, one of the lowest points totals to survive in 17th in the league this year and we could immediately jump to one of the highest points totals to survive next year if this kind of bottom 14 continue to take points off of each other throughout that season. It'll be fascinating to see Just touching as well on Plymouth, mike. They are 21st, just outside the relegation zone at the moment by a point going into the last day. Obviously a friend of the pod Aaron will be looking on to that nervously, but again, I think they're just above Birmingham in the neutrals and the championship neutrals, and certainly us would probably prefer Birmingham to go down there, given the way they've conducted themselves this season.

Speaker 2 52:33

Yeah, you'd say Birmingham probably have the slightly easier game because, while it's not mathematically impossible for Norwich to fall out of the playoffs, they're all but secure because of the better goal difference they have over Hull. So I think they'll be okay in that aspect. So it's potentially a need to attack but's still going to get something out of that game. A draw wouldn't be good enough because of the goal difference Plymouth's got Hull and Hull need to win to have any chance of getting into the playoffs over West Brom. So I think we could see an instance where it's not going to be necessarily two teams fighting.

Speaker 2 53:05

I think you could see two teams get absolutely battered and just stay up on the bases of that. It'd be a shame for them to go down because I don't think they're one of the three weakest teams in the division. I think Sheffield are even worse, but they're probably safe because of the permutations that need to happen for them to go down. But it'd just be funny for Birmingham who Tom Brady's brought into they they've done a lot of renovations around the stadium. It would be funny if they go down because they've probably been worse in our seasons and far worse in our seasons and never kept down to League One. But, like a lot of the teams, it's kind of their turn to go down to League One because they've been circling the gym for many a year now.

Speaker 1 53:46

Yeah, well, I'll be again watching on in earnest. Over the weekend I've realised we jumped to the Championship and I forgot to touch on man Utd, who obviously we have to touch on every week, but this week in particular, because Ten Hag said in his interview I think it was on Monday or Tuesday that man Utd are by far the most dynamic and entertaining team in the league and was complimenting them for the quality of their football, which would be remiss of us not to have a little giggle at, given the irony of that, safe to say that they might be the most entertaining team in the league, but possibly not for the reasons Ten Hag said. And she could get even worse next season because Bruno Fernandes is making murmurings of wanting to move on as well.

Speaker 3 54:35

Yeah, it's not what you want to hear if you're a man United supporter that probably their best player, bruno. Even though he's universally despised by everybody else, he's still man United's best player. So even he's had enough and you think he would have been probably one of the focal points for Ten Hag or whoever happens to be in charge moving forward. He's going to be one of the key aspects of it. That was his intention for him when he was brought in, that he was going to be one of the key players moving forward and for the most part he's held up his end of the bargain, I think. I guess to say, despite the universal dislike for him, you can't deny that he's been a very good player for man Utd and what is a pathetic man Utd team or teams, I should say moving backward and all of a sudden he's had enough.

Issues With VAR and Referee Quality

Speaker 3 55:26

But it's just a question of where does he go. He's still got another year on his contract. It's just a question of where does he go because he's still got another year on his contract. It's just a case of what suitors are available and when teams are becoming more sensible about who they're going out and buying. Maybe Bruno doesn't really fit that mould, so they might have that going in their favour. But the Ten Hag's comment is there is an element of truth to that, as in saying they are the most entertaining, dynamic team because they're just absolutely mental. Every game is just chaos and it's not necessarily the way man United want it to be. Again, they were the second best team in the Burnley game and, despite They've had games where they've clawed it back in the last final few minutes, they've also spectacularly thrown games away in the last few minutes as well. So, yeah, there is a crumb of truth to that, but not in the way that Ten Hag thinks.

Speaker 1 56:23

Yeah, yeah exactly anything on that, mike.

Speaker 2 56:26

No, it's the rambles of a madman, that's all it is. Every week he's saying something to try and convince the people at INEOS to keep his job, but I don't think they're terribly convinced and they're probably put out by some of his comments because they're ludicrous suggestions. Anybody with two eyes can see the man just made. They're not particularly dynamic, but they are entertaining, like Sheila said, for all the wrong reasons.

Speaker 1 56:50

Yeah, absolutely. And just to finish off part one, we were going to jump north to Scotland. The VAR report came out yesterday, mike. We had a sort of brief discussion about it. It says that since the last time they released the independent report, there's been 10 clear errors by VAR. There was, you know, effectively what we were seeing was in in every game week in that time. There was sort of two to three errors. And we're talking, you know, for the independent panel to say it's an error, it's a, effectively what fans would refer to as a howler. It's like, you know, it's a really obvious. It should have gone a different way. This isn isn't a difference of opinion situation and you had some strong views on what that meant for VAR in Scotland and the way it's been implemented so far.

Speaker 2 57:41

It just seems like, in a sense, you're going backwards to have ten clear and obvious which VAR are meant to pick up and rectify errors being made by the. I think we think it's a two-man booth, isn't it, that's reviewing these incidents, four officials in the field not coming to the right decision either, and referees very hard at that. I know that I'm kind of reticent to give referees too much to stick, because it's a very difficult job, the amount of stick that you get with it as well. But 10 out of 72 games, that's a 14% hit rate of a game having a player not obviously ever missed. So it seems like VAR and Scotland's going backwards and everybody's just unhappy with it at this moment in time and I don't know how you rectify it.

Speaker 2 58:33

I'm one of these people that thought VAR coming in could do some good and sorted out a lot of issues.

Speaker 2 58:38

But when you're seeing boys like Mittovic and just the goalkeeper clean out the hips, strike and stuff like that, and four officials on the field don't necessarily see and come to the right decision, and the two boys in the booth see it and think that's absolutely fine, they're kind of scratching their head thinking what do they see? And is it a case that we can't see the forest for the trees, and they don't want to necessarily put the referee in position. Like Mike Dean said, they just want to send these palms to the mother, and comments like that aren't helpful. So it needs a big shake up in the summer and like how do you want to progress this going forward? Because you shouldn't necessarily cater to the boys that just ramble on and speak absolute nonsense. But everybody seems unsatisfied this moment in time, I think buying clothes. Those referees aren't too happy either, so nobody's happy and everybody's spending the money on this thing then, unlike Sweden, why implement in the first place?

Speaker 1 59:33

Yeah, I think that's all spot on. There's a few interesting points in it as well. You know it said that the referees were getting 90% of decisions correct, which was improved to 97% with VAR. But that doesn't highlight the fact that 90% is actually really low for on-field correct decisions. Like really low for on-field correct decisions. You would expect a top level referee to be getting 98 plus.

Speaker 1 59:55

You know, we had a fantastic chat when I was in Jersey with Bobby Madley who was going through sort of his independent review stats and showing us graphs and tables that he gets after every game when he was in the championship and you know he was sort of in the top echelons of championship referees and he was getting sort of 99.5% of decisions correct when reviewed and the decisions he was getting wrong were I think he'd had two in a seven-month period, you know and that included a throwing where he had missed a nick, you know, and so he didn't get the throwing correct. We're not talking like missing penalties, missing red cards. We're talking like semi-innocuous decisions that circumstantially meant that he didn't see what had happened and and so gave it the wrong way. Um, whereas, like, this sort of review in scotland is suggesting that our top, top level officials are missing really, really big decisions and I tell you, nobody is, as referee, sympathetic on any podcast I listen to as much as I am. So I'm trying to come at this diplomatically but it's not a great advertisement for the quality of the officials.

Speaker 1 1:01:03

The same question comes up. They're obviously part time, which has a huge impact on the level of sort of training and dedication that you're able to put into the role and the stress that it puts on people as well. You know you've got a proper day job and then also worrying about going and doing an old firm derby at the weekend. You know that's a really difficult sort of environment to be around and also, like all referees would have mates and stuff anyway, that will obviously bring it up. I find it tricky. You know, like all referees would have mates and stuff anyway, that will obviously bring it up. I find it tricky, you know, like going to work or going to the pub with boys playing amateur or junior football or whatever that I know I might be refereeing that weekend or I might have refereed the weekend before. You know, sometimes it's a little bit awkward to me. They're like you know who have you got and they're talking to you about the game or whatever. I can't imagine how tricky that is for your Don Robertsons et cetera going into. I don't know what Don Robertson does, but any referee some of them are lawyers, some of them are police officers going into an office and everyone around them is going to have an interest in football, constantly saying who have you got at the weekend, who are your referees and what about this decision? What about that decision? Even from that perspective, that must be mentally very challenging to then kind of clear your mind of that noise, whereas if you're professional you're a little bit more in a referee and echo chamber where you're focused Monday to Friday on the game that you've got that weekend or the midweek. So I think this kind of shows us that that question really, really needs to be tackled. And it's strange that we're investing for me, investing money in technology, and budget technology at that, before doing obvious things like making referees fully professional, like bringing in goal line technology, which is, you know, definitive, helpful technology that dictates the most important decision on a football pitch.

Speaker 1 1:02:53

And the other point I wanted to raise was that the refereeing team for the Euros was announced A couple of official teams going from England and the other big leagues. There's official teams going from Slovakia, slovenia, but Scotland omitted not remotely, surprisingly, you know, it's not like there was anyone in the sort of Scotland refereeing fraternity that was chapping on the door, but the last time there was a Scottish refereeing team at an international tournament was Euro 2016. That's now four international tournaments in a row without Scottish representation, so it's not even like.

Speaker 1 1:03:32

I think what we see is that the kind of rhetoric that comes from the SFA is look how great our referees are, look how well we're doing, look how well everything's working. We're so well respected on the international stage. But that's clearly not the case, because that's more international tournaments in a row now that we've not had anybody go to. That will be partly because of performance and, I'm almost certain, partly because they're part-time. I haven't fact-checked it, but I suspect every other referee on that list is full-time. I think that makes a massive impact and I think we should stop. Scotland could do a lot right by removing VAR, and one of the reasons they brought VAR in was so that their referees could continue to compete at the top level and to get these international appointments, but they're not getting them anyway, even with the budget VAR that we have in place.

Speaker 1 1:04:20

So it's maybe worth taking a few steps back and kind of building the foundations first and then. The last point I wanted to make was just trust. What is the point in having a system like this if the people running it think it's successful? It's worth mentioning. Referees didn't vote for VAR, the teams did and the referees just have to implement it. But it's the referees that are sort of bigging up how successful it's been. Now the refereeing fraternity, I should say how successful it's been. And there is no trust whatsoever with any fan, any manager, any player. No one thinks it is adding to the game.

Speaker 1 1:04:56

Derek McInnes was asked about the report and he said they've said there's been 26 errors this season and his reaction was I think there was more than 26 errors in one weekend, if I remember rightly, and he spoke about it was such a relief at the weekend that we didn't have any VAR incidents and managers and players will never like referees, ever, ever, ever. But I think they dislike VAR significantly more than just the level of kind of disliking referees, and I don't think there was ever a lack of. You know, if you sat a manager down by Wednesday. I don't think there was ever a genuine lack of trust with referees. I don't think managers and players thought that they were actually corrupt or actually incompetent and accepted. It was a difficult job, but I think now that's all creeping in just because the sheer levels of distrust that somebody sitting in a studio 100-150 miles away making decisions and then those decisions regularly aren't agreed with and regularly aren't correct. Sheila, I've spoken too long about too many things. Have you got anything to add?

Speaker 3 1:06:02

I think you've hit the nail on the head there that, whether it's away from the numbers that prove whether it's successful or not, it's a general feeling, that sort of overwhelms whether this is whether it's successful or not, it's a general feeling, that sort of overwhelms whether this is good or not good for the game, or good or not, and I think it's a mistrust that, um, but again, as you say, like if you have that technology and I think that you can speak for this all var, whether at different leagues or even in the premier league. That it's just a case of the tools are there, but they're not necessarily being implemented correctly and that's down to the humans making the decisions as to how they're going to implement it, as opposed to the referees on the pitch. But again, without VAR, you do have a get-out clause. If you're a referee, it's like I'm just human, I can only use just my two eyes. How did you not see it? Well, this player was in the way, that player was in the way, blah, blah, blah, and then, with that being sort of removed, then you do have a tool there that you're able to, to call upon, and then it's just a case of well, I don't want to use it because I don't. I don't trust it and that's just permeating throughout the Scottish game.

Speaker 3 1:07:06

But again, scottish football never does itself any favours when it comes to technology or doing things in the right way, especially when we're right next to the Premier League and it's a case of face pressed up a glass and they've got all these shiny new toys that are in a league filled with superstars and we've got essentially like a wish version of it, implemented by referees who are not as you say, and I think that's such a great point that should definitely be tackled first. It's not their full-time job. They can't prepare for it. The players can prepare for the game at the weekend with 100% focus and dedication, but the same can't be said for our referees. Frankly, that's not fair, really, to be honest. Same can't be said for our referees, and that's just, frankly, that's not fair really, to be honest. You can't expect.

Speaker 3 1:07:54

If you were going for heart surgery and the surgeon was like I'm going to do this part time, you'd be like wait a fucking minute. What? And again, I think it's just and the same again. Like Liverpool are not going to go. Sight, like if Salah does leave Liverpool, right, and then their replacement. They're not going to go get someone who plays fucking part time, are they? You're going to get the best in class and the SFA are doing it arse backwards by making it more difficult than it needs to be.

Speaker 3 1:08:26

Again, I would rather you scrap VAR and use the same money from the budget to pay referees a fair wage, so to give up their full-time job and dedicate, and again, if you do that, then you're creating a pathway so players, so that younger referees like yourself or younger just started out, can actually see a pathway to go and play or play referee in the highest level. And then, when it comes to international tournaments as well, um, we're just basically treating it as a, as a hobby, more so than an actual profession, which is which is why the results are shite compared to the europe as a whole, and that's that's that's got to be addressed like you can't. You can't expect them just because we've got these shiny new toys and then the results will translate. It just doesn't work like that. It just does not work like that when it comes to professional athletes. I completely agree.

Speaker 1 1:09:17

If to bring it back to Scotland, if Aberdeen said we've got a striker coming in really looking forward to him, he's going to add a lot to the team. He'll be able to train on Tuesday and Thursday evenings and he can play Saturdays, but he can't play on a Sunday night because he's working down the local butcher and they get a delivery on a Sunday, so he'll be away doing that. Instead, he's unavailable. Aberdeen fans would be like what? Why behind the boy with a job? It doesn't make any sense.

Speaker 3 1:09:47

It's a problem that Scotland has generally, even with players, that a lot of this is part time and not given sort of the facilities and the impetus that's required to get players and just anybody involved in the game during the 90 minutes up to the level they need to be to produce on the international stage. It's fine, within the context of the Scottish league it's okay, but when? Context of the Scottish League, it's okay, but when you start measuring that against the best 10-class standards, it's a long, long, long way short, as you quite rightly pointed out. So if we take a wave up and put it?

Speaker 1 1:10:24

Was it £9,000 a game? Am I right in saying that it's £9,000 a game, or was that England? I'm sure it's about £9,000 a game. Fuck me, if you paid referees £9,000 a game, not only could you make them full time, you'd get a better talent pool you'd get other kids coming in thinking fucking hell. £9,000 a game. I'll do that absolutely.

Speaker 3 1:10:44

And again you might get referees that are probably a bit more willing to put up with the shite that goes with being a referee. At the end of the day, I'm not suggesting that you get paid nine grand a game. That's ridiculous. But you know you could divvy that up like nine grand a game, what's it? There's six games every weekend. That's my quick maths. What's that?

Speaker 1 1:11:04

54 grand 54 grand.

Speaker 3 1:11:07

Like you know, a weekend. Half of that goes into, not even a yeah, half.

Speaker 1 1:11:11

Of that goes into not even a half a third of that goes into making all the officials involved in the game full time.

Speaker 1 1:11:17

And the other two thirds can be. You know those clubs can use that to invest in youth football and maybe put some into. You know, like a refereeing levy type idea where it goes into specifically only grassroots refereeing. You know that. A refereeing levy type idea, where it goes into specifically only grassroots refereeing. You know that kind of thing and you know giving, because another thing with refereeing is like you don't really you don't get kit. You know like you started.

Speaker 1 1:11:41

I was 16 when I started refereeing and I was fortunate that I wasn't able to afford kit. I was 16, I was at school, but I was fortunate that, you know, my dad was able to go and get that. So you get hand-me-downs from within the fraternity, which is it's great that that exists. But the kits change every year and we're fortunate that we've been generally with the same manufacturer for a long time. When I started, you know there was fucking three different manufacturers kicking about. But you know kids are getting hand-me-downs. Players know that the kit they're wearing is four or five years old, it doesn't fit properly, it looks worn. So just like, where's the kind of like professionalism when you're 16, but where's the sort of like you know pride in that and maybe it's. You know I've not refereed in Scotland for four years now. Maybe it's changed a bit, maybe there is a little bit of that kicking about, but I would be surprised and this is where that money should be getting spent is helping young kids get into, increase the talent pool, make the top flight professional, increase their levels of professionalism and just yeah it's. I think what you said there, sheila, with the shiny new toys down in England and the kind of desperation to get our version of that, sums it up nicely.

Speaker 1 1:13:14

Any final comments from you chaps? No, fantastic. Well, as we said, that was part one. Um, ricky will be joining us in part two to talk all things doncaster rovers, really looking forward to that bit of a different direction, um for the podcast. But it's a great story that hasn't necessarily been covered as much as you would like in the in the mainstream media, so to speak, and so we look forward to getting into that in part two and we'll be back with you very shortly.

Doncaster Rovers' Surprising Turnaround

Speaker 1 1:13:41

Thank you, Hello, and welcome back to part two of the Late Kickoff football podcast. Sheila is still with us, but we're delighted now to be joined by Ricky Charlesworth of the Doncaster Free Press and Rovers Chat podcast. Ricky, thank you very much for giving up your time this morning. It's a pleasure to have you. How are you doing? Yeah, good thanks. How are you doing? Yeah, fantastic. Yeah, we're really looking forward to getting into this, one of the more interesting stories in not just English league football but probably British league football towards the end of this season. And, as we were just discussing there before we hit record, not one that's been covered in the kind of mainstream media. Very much hasn't really seemed to hit the headlines as you might expect. So looking forward to getting into that and getting into Doncaster Rovers and you must be a busier man than expected at the moment.

Speaker 4 1:14:39

Yeah, definitely, like we touched on before. I wouldn't say come from nowhere, but it's like the final third of the season. Nobody really had any expectations about a playoff push. It was fanciful, I think, at best. But yeah, I think that there's one game that everyone uses as a reference point. That was Sutton.

Speaker 4 1:15:00

At the start of February, sutton were second bottom, I think there were seven points between themselves and Doncaster and they were leading 1-0. And it was just a real awful game, just like a real stodgy affair. You know, a long way from home, miserable day, poor weather, and yeah, I think they got a penalty in the last minute and they scored it and that kept the distance between themselves and Sutton at seven points. And I think since then they've just been on this well, you've seen it, haven't you? The form they've been on ten wins on the bounce, which is just, I think, whatever division you play in.

Speaker 4 1:15:37

That's ridiculous, you know, and, like you said earlier, it's kind of gone under the radar a little bit. Certainly not the amount of attention, if you think, someone like Wrexham. If they'd have done it, you know, I think it would have been plastered over every, every single, you know, mainstream site and podcast would have been talking about it. So yeah, they have. They've gone under the radar. They've just been in really good form and I think Grant McCann has to take a lot of credit for that. The manager he actually said to us that he put up an 18-game table in the training ground, in the dressing room etc. After that Sutton game and his aim was to just finish top of that and see where it takes them. Well, they've finished top of it by some distance and, yes, finishing fifth in the table. They're not even scratching to the playoffs. They've finished fifth, which is mad considering they were only in the playoffs for the final two games of the season.

Speaker 4 1:16:31

So, yeah, couldn't really make it up.

Speaker 1 1:16:35

Yeah, it's just bonkers. You're saying there that if anyone else did it or some other teams did it, it might have been on the news. You just think that you know it's not a 10-game winning streak for the team that go on to win the league by 25 points. This is a team that were battling relegation and I hadn't heard about that 18-game league table. It's one of those things that could go either way, isn't it? Because if the form hadn't changed and they just happened to sit 22nd, 23rd on it for the next 18 games, it might have been quite depressing.

Speaker 1 1:17:06

But, yeah, probably one of those stories that Grant McCann will be telling it after dinner speeches in 15-20 years time. But, looking back to the start of the season and you know, grant McCann, I believe, came in sort of towards the end of last season with a view of kicking on this year. He'd been Doncaster manager before taking them to the playoffs in League One back in 2018-19 before leaving for Hull. So there must have been quite a positive mood, despite the way last season finished. Quite a positive mood around the fans and around the stadium that here was a guy that knew the club that was coming in, that played good football before and hopefully the team could could kick on. Were the expectations high at the start of the season?

Speaker 4 1:17:49

yeah, I mean last season and obviously I'm talking before my time, before I started covering them, but the general consensus was there was just really low ebb. Last season they had Danny Schofield in charge, um, and he left at the end of the season and, yeah, the football by all accounts was poor, the morale was low. But then, like you've just mentioned there, mccann coming in, he's a big name for that division, I think you know. He won the League One title with Hull two or three seasons ago, so his stock's still high. I don't think he would have dropped down to the fourth tier for anybody else. But Doncaster, like you said, they've kind of got unfinished business because they took them to the playoffs in League One in 2019, lost out in the semis on penalties. So yeah, coming back in, I think it's obviously taken him a little bit longer than he would have liked in terms of getting them going again Half the season, like we said earlier, they were in the bottom six.

Speaker 4 1:18:45

But yeah, I don't think he would have probably envisaged how it's gone, this turnaround to the final third of the season. I mean, ideally they'll get the job done this season, but I don't think anybody was thinking of promotion two, three months ago. But yeah, I've mentioned this a few times there's something about him, you know. He's got like an aura about him and just how he operates and he gets players going, he gets a tune out of them and I think he's probably the biggest asset the club have got. And yeah, I'd say hopefully, fingers crossed they get the job done this season, because I think it's certainly a bright future with McCann in charge.

Speaker 1 1:19:27

Yeah, absolutely, you touched on it there. Obviously it wasn't necessarily the start that Grant McCann was looking for. Bought him after seven games and just outside the playoffs Sorry, just outside the delegation zone. I should say 22nd after 29 games, which is a fair chunk of the season over half the season. Was there any murmurs at that point for Grant McCann's head? Was there worries in the ground that you know Doncaster could fall out of the Football League and that perhaps this, that Grant McCann wasn't right, and how much of that was just a case of it being two sort of poor seasons back to back and that you know that a habit can creep in with players, including a losing habit, and how much do you think that was just carrying on from there?

Speaker 4 1:20:08

Yeah, a little bit In terms of the murmurings and I've not really noticed this at any other club. There was barely any, if at all any. I think he's always had the fan support. I think he's got credit in the bank for that first spell he had, plus the fact that he's come back. You know he's come back when the club's not at its best. Let's be right. You know the League Two club. So, yeah, the supporters have never really gone for McCann.

Speaker 4 1:20:35

There was one incident at again, it's before my time, but I think it was Notts County away, either Notts County or Mansfield away. So one of the local rivals where the players got the you're not fit to wear the shirt, chan and McCann's referenced that, saying they were right to do it on that day, and that's kind of coincided with the turnaround. You know, from January onwards they've improved. But yeah, there's never been any kind of calls from McCann. The fans love him Really. Good relationship with his supporters and, like I said before, he's got this aura about him and he certainly knows what he's doing in terms of building the squad because the run they're on, but he keeps level-headed as well Anytime you ask him. It's just and I know it's a cliché. It well, you know. Anytime you ask him, it's just and I know it's a cliche, it's not good for us as journalists, but one game at a time and that's the mantra he's got and it's it's working. So I wouldn't. I wouldn't change it if I was him.

Speaker 1 1:21:30

No, absolutely. You know. Is there a specific style of play that McCann goes to that that maybe caused the difficulty in in the start of the season and then could have been the result of the turnaround? I heard him say in an interview that he hadn't actually managed at that level before, which, I suppose which you don't realise at first when you think he's been at Doncaster before but it was obviously in League One and so there was probably an adaptation period for his style as well in League Two. Would that be correct to say?

Doncaster Rovers Playoff Run

Speaker 4 1:21:59

Yeah, definitely it's front foot is how I would describe it. His style of play, yeah, I mean, the best example I can give is so the other week they were 2-0 down to Barrow and you kind of think you know the playoff run, the faint playoff chances are slipping away. But he, so they got it back to 2-1 and then he makes three subs, it goes to three at the back like a 3-4-3 effectively, and they just go for it. They get in front to 3-2 and then even at 3-2, they're not taking the ball into the corner, they're going for the jugular, they want another and they get the fourth. So that's probably the best game to highlight how he plays. You know it's fearless football but not kamikaze football. You know they're not attempting to win every game 5-4,. You know they're largely defensively quite sound. So yeah, it's marrying those two together.

Speaker 4 1:22:51

But yeah, I think you're right, it took him and his assistant, cliff Byrne, like I say, never managed at this level. It took him a while to kind of suss the league out or suss the style needed in the league, and I think it helps with players coming back. And they made three really good signs in January. So they signed Timothy Lothar-Tarler, a goalkeeper from Hull not played a lot of football, he's been brilliant. Hakeem Adelakun, a really lively winger on loan, who he's worked with before. And Matty Craig, who's a Scotland under-21 international from Spurs on loan. He's been brilliant. Those three, with a few more players coming back from injuries, it's all come together really.

Speaker 1 1:23:34

Yeah, I suppose it's helpful for them to be able to take three, four months and then identify exactly what it is that the team need and the division needs as well. So then you referenced the Sutton game at the start, rovers go on to lose one in 18, but within that is this kind of famous 10 wins in a row which really changed their fortunes in terms of a playoff charge went from 40 points, which, had they stayed like that, would have been relegation for them all the way up to 70 and finishing the season in fifth. Was there a point in that that? You know, expectations changed. Fans started almost getting nervous in a different way because the playoffs were becoming. You referred to it as a faint chance there. Where was there sort of that excitement building around the ground and sort of delusions of what this could be, despite where Rovers have been?

Speaker 4 1:24:28

Yeah, I think that Barrow game was the one reference there because the crowd, that was the last home game of the season and it was one of those where that winning run they had to continue. They had to almost be faultless to get into the playoffs. You know, win, win, win, win, win. Even if they'd have dropped to two points it would have probably been costly. But yeah, the Barrow one, the big crowd, like I said, they were 2-0 down at half-time. I think maybe some supporters thought, oh, it's not going to happen. But, like I said, the reaction they got from there and then the crowd was brilliant that day once the third goal went in. I think that's when people thought, right, actually we could do this. They had two away games to finish the season. They won at Colchester on the Tuesday night and then they went to Gillingham on the last day and it's mad to think they were only in the playoffs for the last two games of the season.

Speaker 4 1:25:19

But yeah, it's interesting the dynamic. Whether it changes now that everyone's clocked on to the fact that they're the form team, I don't know. I guess we'll find out against Crewe. But yeah, I think the supporters have kind of they believe now and I think maybe Grant McCamberley all along, you know. So I certainly think he's of that mind frame that he knew how good they were and he knew, you know, they could do it. I think the supporters are cottoning on to that now yeah, it's just a, it's an astonishing.

Speaker 1 1:25:48

It is genuinely an astonishing run of form and change of fortune in a league that is sort of famed, for everyone can take points off of everyone, and you know it's very close from kind of the top couple of teams you reference Rexham, obviously, with the finances they have behind them, but sort of after that.

Speaker 1 1:26:07

It is an unbelievably close league which, if anything, in some ways you could say it gives you a chance on going on one of these runs, but, if anything, probably makes it harder because at any point you could have slipped up along the way. So it is bonkers, they get into the, the playoffs, you said as well. They finished fifth you know they didn't even sort of scrape in on goals difference or anything like that and sets up a tie against crew this week, so away on Monday afternoon before the second leg on Friday night. How, how does that tie, luke? What do crew bring to the table? You know Doncaster, obviously the form side. I've seen that Crewe only have two wins in their last 11. So kind of differences in the way that these two teams finish the season.

Speaker 4 1:26:52

Yeah, well, plus as well Donny B Crewe, not that long ago at home. But yeah, like you said, they're two wins in 11 for Crick and their home form. And I know people will say, well, the season's finished now. But their last three at home they lost 3-0 three times to Wrexham, grimsby and Forest Green. So that's not an awful lot of confidence to go into the playoffs off the back of.

Speaker 4 1:27:17

And I think their managers already started the mind games saying Doncaster are red-hot favourites. And I wouldn't expect Graham McCann to kind of fire back. He's not the kind of manager to get involved in stuff like that. He's just going to focus on Donny and I think as long as he does that, I don't think he's going to be comfortable by any stretch. But I think if Donny turn up and start playing how they have been in recent weeks, then there's no reason why they can't get through this two-leg tie and then obviously, fingers crossed, they get to Wembley. But then it's who turns up on the day. But I think they've done the hard bit, haven't they? Just to even get in the playoffs, and then obviously there's more hard stuff to come, but the real task was to get in there in the first place. They've done that now, and they'll have had nine days rest by the time the first leg comes around.

Speaker 1 1:28:10

Yeah, and it allows them to take stock a little bit as well, doesn't it? I guess that sort of 18-game run and then the sort of 10, 11 games at the end of the season, it's just go, go, go, go, you need the wins, whereas I suppose it does allow Grant McCann to sort of just bring the players back down to right down to earth and get them ready to go. The other tie is, uh, crawley and Barrow, if I'm, and Kedon's sorry, um, and they, they obviously will have their sights on on league one as well as a. You might be hesitant to say to say, is it a team of those two you would rather want it, and faced at Wembley, or is it much of a muchness at this stage?

Speaker 4 1:28:48

I think, yeah, much of a muchness. I think the one that no Rovers fan wanted was Bradford. I think they couldn't have played them over two legs. It wasn't possible for the placings, but they could have met Bradford at Wembley and I think they've kind of been a bit of a bogey team, bradford this season plus you think of the support that they would have took well-supported club.

Speaker 4 1:29:09

You know, do you really do you really want to be playing someone at Wembley with? You know, potentially a lot more fans than are going to take a lot more fans. I think I was happy to avoid them, but yeah, I think Crawley MK, I think Donny, will take as many fans, if not more, than both of those clubs. So, yeah, obviously jumping the gun a bit, but hopefully they can get there. But yeah, it's so tough to call. You know your playoff finals are just the one-off affairs and you know we've seen freak results in the past. But yeah, fingers crossed they can. Like I said, they've done so well to get here. It'd just be a great ending to what's been a brilliant story.

Speaker 1 1:29:46

Yeah, it's been fantastic You're preaching to the choir a little bit about going to the national stadium and being outnumbered, as two Scottish football fans that don't support the old firm spent our entire lives going to Hampden and looking at 45,000 Rangers or Celtic fans opposite you.

Speaker 1 1:30:02

So yeah, I know very much how that can feel. So obviously good, I guess, then, to avoid Bradford. But I tell you I'll certainly be watching both the games against Crewe with interest now, and I'll admit I probably wouldn't have watched the League Two semi-finals in the playoffs had it not been for this story and then the final to come after that. The playoff finals are always an incredible affair. As a neutral, I don't know what it'd be like to support a team in one. It must be one of the worst days of all time until you win, but the pressure that builds in these games always makes them an absolutely fantastic spectacle. So we'll certainly be watching with earnest and hopefully Doncaster can get it done and get over the line and see themselves into League One next season which presumably is where Rovers fans think they should be and with ambitions of the Championship rather than sort of languishing in League Two as they have done for the last couple of years.

Speaker 4 1:31:01

Yeah, definitely, I think a bare minimum is League One. I know Grant said he's got like a plan, like a master plan, but he's got an aim he wants to be. He's mentioned he wants to take this club to the Championship and they've been in the Championship in the last 15 years for a good few seasons. So, yeah, I think certainly not League Two, league One as a minimum and then, once you're in that league, who knows? But yeah, fingers crossed, they can negotiate these three matches and, like I say, it'd just be a really good ending to what's been an unexpected but really amazing story.

Speaker 1 1:31:40

Yeah, absolutely, and it's 22, 23 new away days for you to go to next season as well, which is always nice. Really appreciate your time, ricky, thank you very much for jumping on with us so early in the morning. It's been a fantastic listen. As I say, we'll be looking to the Doncaster games this coming week and fingers crossed they do get over the line. Hopefully you enjoy them as well, and you never know hopefully we'll be able to catch up again next season when Doncaster are doing this all over again, but at the top of League One.

Speaker 4 1:32:12

Cheers guys, thanks very much for having me. Thank you, cheers.

Speaker 1 1:32:20

Big thanks again to Ricky Charlesworth of the Doncaster Free Press and Rovers Chat podcast. That was absolutely tremendous to have him on there and listen just to how bonkers that season has been and how it's gone for the Rovers. That's all from us this week. It's been a pleasure, as always, plenty of great stuff for us to get our teeth into and have a chat about. Look forward to speaking to you all again next week. Thank you.