Camaraderie and Caution in the Realm of Modern-Day Witchery

We're sounding the alarm on the fraying edges of ceremony and etiquette in our magical communities. This episode is a heartfelt exploration of the crucial role that protocol has historically played within witchcraft and pagan rituals, and why its preservation is essential for our spiritual ecosystem. We'll navigate through the complexities of balancing respect for our elders with the need to step into our own leadership roles—a dance that is both delicate and necessary for the sustenance of our practices and faith community.

Delve into the murky waters of the term "warlock" with us. It's a label that carries a weighty curse within our circles, and we'll dissect the stringent process that leads to such a dire pronouncement. The conversation takes a serious turn as we contemplate the lasting ramifications of excommunication on one's magical and social standing. This chapter isn't just about the gravity of the warlock label, but also reflects on the broader consequences of our actions and the long-lasting impact they have on our spiritual pathways and rapport within our community.

We invite you to refill your cup and ponder with us the ephemeral beauty of life and the treasures of camaraderie. 

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Transcript

Speaker 1 0:23

Welcome to Pig and Coffee Talk. If you enjoy our content, please consider donating and following our socials. Now here are your hosts, lady Abba and Lord Knight.

Speaker 2 0:35

What is happening to protocol?

Speaker 3 0:38

It's going out the damn door. Yeah, along with everything else. Nobody wants to do protocol anymore.

Speaker 2 0:44

Let's talk about protocol All right. All right so.

Speaker 3 0:48

What is protocol? My lady?

Speaker 2 0:50

It's not even a what is I mean? Protocol is an interesting topic. I feel like we got two things going on. One is what's happening to it? Right, it's. It's disappearing in a way that I don't like.

Speaker 3 1:11

I don't necessarily like either.

Speaker 2 1:13

And knowing that it takes a certain amount of discipline to practice magic, we are seeing our people fail to practice a basic form of discipline with protocol, and that's concerning Well, for those listening, when we're talking about protocol, we are talking about certain activities that are done, I don't think we're revealing anything.

Speaker 3 1:43

No, no, no. Well, like protocol for like to, when you first show up for ritual, the first thing you do is go greet the high priestess and skip everybody else.

Speaker 2 1:55

Then comes the high priest and then any other elders. Third degrees, down to seconds, down to first, down to neophytes. There's an order in which things are done. There is an order in which you exit as well. Right Protocol determines behavior. Protocol determines the pecking order, if you will. I don't want to say hierarchy, because that's not it, but it's, it's respect and it is again I make this comparison a lot right If there's a military aspect to it. Right, there's a regimented nature to it and it's disappearing.

Speaker 3 2:39

Well, I mean, let's think about this. On the other end, though, there are some of this protocol that we use, like you're coming in ritual. Yes, it's nice to know who's all going to be there.

Speaker 2 2:49

Of course.

Speaker 3 2:50

And you're not sitting there at the last minute because you've seen them all. They've all approached you, they've all said hey to you.

Speaker 2 2:55

Right.

Speaker 3 2:56

Because, like part of the protocol to come in, we normally start from the highest range, right alternating boy girl as much as possible.

Speaker 2 3:06

Yeah, I mean, it's even how we bring God and goddess into the circle. It mirrors a lot of protocol, yes, but protocol is also it's about how we conduct ourselves. It's about how we work as a unit.

Speaker 3 3:24

Mm, hmm.

Speaker 2 3:25

It is about how we represent ourselves out in the public and in the world. I mean, our elders were so protocol specific. I mean they were oh, it was, it was it, you know trust me Very very important protocol, even the way you dressed.

Speaker 2 3:45

Yes, you know everything. I remember the stories of when Lady Santana decided that all of Ravenwood, out in public, would wear priest callers. They wore black shirts and priest callers and she said if we are priesthood, then we are going to act like it and we are going to be recognized as such. Because that was her big fight. Right, it was recognition, right, but it was, it was protocol. You know, you didn't show up, not dressed appropriately, you didn't. You know? I mean God, there's so many things.

Speaker 3 4:22

I mean, don't give me wrong Lord, me and one of me to do the whole priest collar to, especially when I was going to visit, especially if I was going to go visit at the hospital.

Speaker 2 4:30

Absolutely, absolutely. That was part of, I think, why she did it. I just wonder, or I feel like I like okay, on one hand, a lot of pagans don't know about protocol, they don't even know that it's a thing. The traditional groups that do. I always find it funny when two traditional groups kind of meet because there's a hesitation and the hesitation comes from the fact that both are being mindful of protocol, but the protocol might differ slightly. So we're trying not to cause an offense.

Speaker 3 5:11

Step on any toes, rub anybody the wrong way Exactly.

Speaker 2 5:14

So the proceed with caution, kind of thing. It's interesting. And but yet we're also seeing where gathers. Now it's very loose and it's kind of all over the place. And then we have some elders who you know they don't hold titles the way some groups do.

Speaker 3 5:34

Yeah, In a way I sort of understand it because again, Growing up I was bad about the yasm you with me growing up, is it a yes, ma'am? I mean trust me. I'm surprised I still don't have a knot in the back of my head for as big dogs grandma.

Speaker 4 5:52

So I mean, you do not say yes.

Speaker 3 5:57

That gets you smacked in the back of the head. But there's my question is is it this mentality that keeps on being Into the younger, over and over again?

Speaker 2 6:10

and it's gonna get worse. I mean, part of the reason it's getting worse is what we're seeing with parenting. The reason it's getting worse is because kids have no Discipline. No, they are allowed to do whatever the hell they want, whenever the hell they want, and there's very, very little policing, if you will.

Speaker 3 6:31

I do not hear the phrase like I used to growing up all the time. And what do we say?

Speaker 2 6:36

Yeah, oh, cuz, if, if a kid did not think or correctly, absolutely, the, the pleases, the thank yous, the appreciation, the curbing of you know, whining or certain you know things. I mean there's Parents now, right, everybody's gone. Super liberal in the sense of, well, I don't want my kids to have to grow up with this or that or this or yeah. I'm not talking about like beating your children. No, that's not it.

Speaker 3 7:08

No, we're talking about simple things.

Speaker 2 7:09

Like me, and in polite society, you should always walk on the traffic side and let the woman walk on the inside so she don't get dirty right but these are, in a lot of cases, these are outdated Thoughts, and I mean it's like are we just old-fashioned now or we got out of touch, or or is this really something that's lacking, because in my mind, and I'm gonna say this in my mind I cannot say me and you going to a coffee shop or something and may not getting out and escorting you in, to me it's my job.

Speaker 3 7:43

Mm-hmm, you're my high priestess. I should be. Yeah, I to me. It's my son, me showing you respect for your position.

Speaker 2 7:53

Right and, of course, if there's an elder, you're on one side and I'm on the other, and now that's the, you know, the focal point. Oh yeah but I, but I do think again. It boils down to Discipline and cheat teaching, and the problem is how do you take someone who for potentially 18 years of their life had little to no discipline and then suddenly go here are all the rules you need to follow, right? They're like fuck this, fuck. They don't want to do it.

Speaker 3 8:21

Well, we see it as very effortless to do because we've done it our whole lives.

Speaker 2 8:27

Exactly. We see it as it's just polite, it's just what's expected. We see it as a societal norm and Some people you know yes, I think, our age range and older they just take to it, they, they just go yeah, this, this makes perfect sense. This is the way I created my grandparents. This is the way I was raised.

Speaker 2 8:52

But no, we're not. We're not seeing a lot of that anymore. You know, like kids and these are observations from you know me being with friends and right. You know people who have younger children like respect for other people's property. That is no longer a major priority For parents to teach their kids. I don't know why it just. I don't know why that has become lax, but yeah, and as a result it's again. How do you instill that later?

Speaker 3 9:24

I mean, did you, did you miss the opportunity? Yeah, you know, I'm almost like kids and cuss words. I mean, yes, it's funny when your three-year-old goes around saying cuss words and stuff like that but, yeah, what happens when they get older?

Speaker 2 9:41

What?

Speaker 3 9:41

happens when they get older? What happens when they're sitting there cussing like a sailor in front of your pastor Right trying to convince him to marry you, and he can't stop because you did not teach him how to?

Speaker 2 9:53

Yeah, it's unfortunate, but it makes me wonder, you know again, are we, are we on the brink of like a major breakdown in the traditional craft world? We could yeah, because either I can see it, I can see where either protocol is slowly but surely going to be abolished until it no longer exists anywhere, which is wild to me.

Speaker 3 10:21

Or we get the knee-jerk reaction where we have protocol gone wild and everybody's so strict you can't fart without. Right which, again, it's not a balanced thing for me.

Speaker 2 10:32

No, it's not a balance. That's not balanced for anybody, and I mean, even though there are elements of protocol that are tough. Yeah, it's not.

Speaker 3 10:41

And just let people know. Sometimes it's tougher on the other side of this because you don't think you should be called that. You don't think.

Importance of Protocol in Witchcraft

Speaker 2 10:49

Well, the other. The problem that also goes along with it is the protocol exists within the different degrees to denote a level of knowledge and a level of understanding and what someone should or should not be exposed to yet, based on where they are in their journey. If we start to remove protocol, then how the hell do we know?

Speaker 3 11:12

Well, again, if we remove protocol, we have this problem. When do I become the elder? When do I? Step into that Because, again, if we sit there and we keep on doing it the way we are now, you never become your father because you're never stepping into that role. You're never behaving in that manner. You're rejecting it.

Speaker 2 11:34

Right, I don't know. It's also something to be said for again, stereotypes, negative connotations there are, for again for his mainstream, as witchcraft is. Now, there are still plenty of people who see us as savage heathens, and the thought being that we're just out there, you know, running amok. Well, protocol, no protocol disrupts those ideas completely and says, no, actually we have a very orderly system here.

Speaker 3 12:07

Yeah, we are civilized and orderly and we do know how to interact with the world appropriately.

Speaker 2 12:14

Well, protocol also does tend to curb some unwanted behavior right, when you're being held to a certain standard, yeah, you're less likely to make jokes, you're less likely to offend somebody else.

Speaker 3 12:29

You're less likely to go off the handle in the middle of Walmart talk to somebody who really don't.

Speaker 2 12:34

Yeah, yeah, you're less likely to do a lot of things because you're minding yourself and you're aware, right.

Speaker 3 12:42

Yeah.

Speaker 2 12:43

Protocol keeps you in check. I don't know. I worry about it though.

Speaker 3 12:47

I do too. I do too no, because I see it as more as a disrespect to myself to not follow the report.

Speaker 2 12:55

Of course I mean we see it within our group. It's very common to have neophytes and even firsts forget their protocol or just not be paying attention to it. But at the same time, for us, yes, it's a slight.

Speaker 3 13:12

Right.

Speaker 2 13:12

But also I don't want to run around spending my time being the protocol police no, and you know, having to point out to everyone where their protocol is off, because that doesn't set a great environment either.

Speaker 3 13:28

Well, it makes it even harder to follow the protocols because you feel more as like being forced upon you than something you doing out of choice.

Speaker 2 13:36

Yeah, that's a really good point. Yeah, we used to take protocol up as it was a pride Right? Yeah, it's a sense of pride to say I do this. I follow this. I respect this enough to make these conscious decisions. Yes, yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 3 13:57

And again, like I said, we still have that whole entire. Not necessarily want to be our fathers. Not having to be that I'm sorry. I never wanted to be as stuck up as what I thought Lord Nen was sometimes, yeah, but I also see the advantages of what he was doing.

Speaker 2 14:14

Sure, I mean, I knew, gosh, some of the high priestesses that I I've known them as much much older women, right, who are physically a lot less capable, but you are still like I mean, not eggshells, I don't want to say that because that's too much but you're definitely aware of the fact that you should think before you speak around them.

Speaker 3 14:37

Right. There's a different there. There is a certain feeling and way you feel when you're sitting there and you're talking to a lady Maya, a lady Santana. I don't know how to explain that. There's something even with you. There is something in me that I must show this respect to you.

Speaker 2 14:56

Well, we've that's. That is part of initiation, it's part of the the preservation of craft, the continuation of craft. Because you're right, you're right, we don't have arguments, we don't have disagreements, we don't have. And it's not to say we don't get on each other's nerves, you know, it's not to say we don't have moments, but protocol is what keeps us from getting angry or saying something out of pocket or, you know, just overstepping a boundary Right.

Speaker 2 15:36

You know, protocol is the thing that makes you go. Yeah, I'm annoyed with you right now, but I think I'm going to sit on this before I say anything and decide if it's really, I don't know, worth it.

Speaker 3 15:47

And protocol keeps you from rolling in a good relationship over something stupid yeah.

Speaker 2 15:52

Well, it also goes back to what I feel like is the first thing we tell our neophytes we are not friends. No, we're not, we're not friends. And that structure with protocol in place, yes, it changes everything about how we as a group and as members of this faith interact.

Speaker 3 16:21

Yes, yeah, it is the civilization, or the civilizing of humanity being polite to one another.

Speaker 2 16:31

Yeah, Well being respectful. Being respectful Above all else, right. Even if I disagree with you or I don't like something you've said or you've done, I can still show you respect.

Speaker 3 16:41

Right.

Speaker 2 16:42

For the fact that we have earned the same right.

Speaker 3 16:46

Well, just because we disagree doesn't mean we have to hate each other.

Speaker 2 16:49

Yeah, oh sure.

Speaker 3 16:51

All right, I mean there's a tons of stuff mean you disagree on religiously, blah, blah, blah.

Speaker 2 16:56

But yeah, but there's the odds of us ever having a situation where we have stopped talking or we are not any slim to none, right, because of these bonds and protocol. I think, yeah, it has. It's a part of that. It really does work as a unit, but I Don't know. I don't know. It's something that you know. We got to see what happens the next. The next decade or so might be really.

Speaker 3 17:27

Interesting. Yeah, they always say hope you live an interesting time. Yeah yeah, most priests and priests. This is go. No, I'd rather not. Can I live in something quiet, peaceful? Can I just be, you know, slide into oblivion all by myself?

Speaker 2 17:48

Oh, my goodness, I'll join you, we'll go together. But we require coffee we do, we'll bring the coffee. The word warlock. Yes to you. Yes is an insult. God, yes, okay and it is Kind of a worst-case scenario.

Speaker 3 18:10

Oh, it's it, yes, the worstest thing you can be called.

Speaker 2 18:14

But yet Right. The term is used all over the place and there's still a Pretty widespread belief that a warlock is a male witch right. I don't know where the hell that came from. Don't get me started very confused on that one. I feel like that's a Dungeons and Dragons thing thing. Yeah, but it came out of that, or like one of the.

Speaker 3 18:38

I believe it or not, I think it's a be witch thing. Maybe yeah, because they wanted all the women to be called witches and Warlocks yeah, maybe I mean it's definitely more pop culture thing.

Speaker 2 18:51

Yeah, because there's no reference to it that I know of anywhere.

Speaker 3 18:59

There's no reference to the moral itself. Besides, just keep your word.

Speaker 2 19:04

No, yeah, but I mean like inside of Books and literature and some of the old texts, there's no reference to warlock being used Not common term. No so, as you know it, what is a warlock? What does it mean?

Speaker 3 19:24

Someone who's broken the word so it's an oath breaker.

Speaker 2 19:28

It's an oath breaker and and the term, as far as we know, the word warlock Means that you are denied the right to engage in warfare, exactly, and the reason for this is because you done fucked up, right? Yeah, and Back in the day, when we talk about the Celts, when we talk about the Vikings, the warring tribes, right?

Speaker 3 19:56

the warrior civilizations.

Speaker 2 19:58

That was the worst thing you could do. Yes, bench somebody.

Speaker 3 20:03

Yes.

The Curse of the Warlock

Speaker 2 20:03

Yeah, you did bad, so now you get a time out and you don't get to fight right, and it was a big yeah, they were just probably whiny little bitches about it because I mean, yeah, yeah, that was, that was a big deal, so it was an ultimate form of punishment. Now it is. Well, there's a couple things that happened. First of all, being warlocked is a big freaking deal, like you had to do something so grievous that your church, your group, your tradition has deemed you are ex-communicated, yeah you're an outcast.

Speaker 3 20:50

You're an outcast.

Speaker 2 20:51

You've been stripped of your title. Mm-hmm. You've been stripped of your degrees. Your book of shadows has been confiscated. Do we take your anthem?

Speaker 3 21:06

Mmm, I don't think so. Okay but I don't think warlocks are given death rights.

Speaker 2 21:12

Oh Wow. That's where the sticker comes in so you, yeah, you are stripped of all your princess points, and man I mean, so it's, it's severe but there is an actual curse that we don't have to, nobody has to do.

Speaker 3 21:31

It's done to yourself. Yes in all this process.

Speaker 2 21:35

Well, what happens is so, by being so, first of all, to even be considered For the term, the word for it for it to be enacted, it takes multiple Elders, third degrees. It's a council, you're not right. One person cannot make this decision, right? I could not be like you. We're, you know? Yeah, I don't like your shirt today, you're? You're out of here, right? Yeah, no, we can't. It is. It is a big deal, and usually it's 13 elders, if I'm not mistaken, it's 13 third degrees or 13 elders that are.

Speaker 3 22:13

Utilized, right you're. You're bringing different traditions together to accomplish this, so and they're taking a vote right.

Speaker 2 22:21

And the reason for 13 you can't have a tie. Nope, yep, now the way I remember it as well.

Speaker 3 22:30

So where the word term black ball black balled yes we would vote either with a white marble or a black marble.

Speaker 2 22:36

Yes, and so if you were black balled, that was it, that was the, the punishment that was doled out. So it's, yeah, it's, it's a big, big thing. The curse of the warlock comes from the fact that your magic collapses. Yes, it is.

Speaker 3 22:58

It unravels. Yeah, because you can no longer, is the thought. Is is because you cannot speak truth, you cannot speak reality. All your spells start to fall apart Because you can't speak truth or reality. So, wow, again, here's a big problem. But this also means one other thing that all those promises you made to all the gods and stuff like that, yeah, you're right at first, you have negated them, right.

Speaker 2 23:35

Or worse is the degreasing? Yeah, you have, you, you've, you're an oath breaker. I have seen Some people do some messed up shit. Pagans or not, we are not Excluded, excluded from bad decision-making. No, I've seen some crazy, crazy crap, but I have never seen anyone be blackballed or like I mean, that's how severe this is.

Speaker 3 24:04

I've only known of one person, and that's it.

Speaker 2 24:07

We're talking about an offense so heinous that it probably also breaks the law of the land.

Speaker 3 24:16

Yes.

Speaker 2 24:16

Yeah, but what's interesting is, can someone self-impose this punishment?

Speaker 3 24:27

You get what I'm saying, well psychologically in the back of your mind if you're called this and it's pointed out wanting the world. You've done, yes. Psychologically, in the back of your head, you could be self-sabotaging yourself From the beginning, even though you might be going around trying to show a wonderful yeah, that's an interesting thing, because but again, me, being as religious as I, am losing the favor of the gods because I made a lie, because I couldn't keep my word. That's a more of an offense. You're with me.

Speaker 2 25:08

I am, but could someone, in theory, be so guilt-riddled by an action of deed oh yes, that yeah that they effectively turn their own magic against themselves because they just can't let it go?

Speaker 3 25:22

I think that's what actually causes the curse to begin with. Interesting. I think this is always. It always turns out to be a self-inflicted thing.

Speaker 2 25:32

Well, sure, one way or another. Yeah, yeah, you did it to yourself.

Speaker 3 25:35

You did it to yourself by the actions you took.

Speaker 2 25:37

I mean, it's by your deeds you shall be known. And that is really the ultimate at the end of that line of if you have been warlocked, I mean that is literally how you're gonna be known forever.

Speaker 3 25:52

I mean it. It sucks To repair those relationships. They take so long and so much time. And they're gonna take twice as long now Because, again, now you're gonna go around and you're gonna have to spend your whole entire time proving you're not this. Yeah, you're gonna have to overdo. You're gonna have to make sure you're there on time. Yup, life just became. You've just made life twice as hard for yourself, yeah. Well, I mean, as a spiritual leader, I don't think I need to sit there and go ooh, warlock, warlock, warlock. You are what you are and I can move on with my life. It's been done and I don't need to dwell there.

Speaker 2 26:33

Do you think that there's a spiritual scorecard that elders keep though?

Speaker 3 26:37

No, I don't think so overall.

Speaker 2 26:39

Okay, I don't either.

Speaker 3 26:40

I was just curious because you've seen more interaction than I have with certain things and Well, I mean, are you gonna sit there and try to tell me it's not hard to sit there in your head? Well, you know, I remember that this particular person did this, this, this and this and this and this, yeah, yeah, yeah yeah, yes, but when you're sitting there and you're doing that judgment, you have to be there.

Speaker 3 27:02

In that time, everything that happened in the past is not Relevant. Relevant at the time, yeah, right Again. Hence the reason we have 13 people there to remind us yeah, one in the world we're doing. And while we're there, yeah. We're not doing this just because, well, it's a Thursday, bro.

Speaker 2 27:22

We are bored.

Speaker 3 27:23

Or somebody that's had to wear a skirt today. Yeah, just not Right.

Speaker 2 27:27

There were no reruns of Buffy the Vampire Slayer so we had to do something. But yes, so just be cautious, right? I think that that's the real message here for people. If you're around a traditional group, if you are interacting, please don't make that mistake Calling somebody a warlock, even if it's if you don't mean any harm with it. It could be taken very, very poorly.

Speaker 3 27:56

Oh yeah.

Speaker 2 27:57

It's about educating yourself, you know. That's the thing that I think is critical.

Speaker 3 28:02

I mean because, when you think of our students and some of our members, what kind of? Reaction would they get if somebody called one of us that and the middle of something?

Speaker 2 28:09

Yeah, I know that would be bad. Yeah, everyone would immediately go on the defensive. Yes, yeah.

Speaker 3 28:18

Even though the person didn't mean that we might be sitting at 100.

Speaker 2 28:22

Absolutely, and I think and again it comes down to when you're interacting with other organizations if you have multiple groups getting together for a gather you don't know, you don't know someone's experience and what their elders have taught them and what kind of history they have, I mean it really could start something you didn't mean to Well, I mean again, it's like working with, it's like going to work and working with women.

Speaker 3 28:51

Some women don't mind certain language. Yeah, Other women get really. I've worked in that. You know where there are certain women. Yeah, I can cuss like a sailor and fun and they wouldn't say anything. But if it was the secretary or somebody else, she might yeah.

Speaker 2 29:08

But I think it's all the way around now. I mean like I look, I mean it's a podcast, so I can pretty much say whatever. But I have gay friends who are absolutely 100% fine with the word faggot. They have no issue, couldn't care less. Fag, this fag, that that doesn't matter. And there's some oh my God, right, that is the worst offense that you can commit. You're it's, it's disparaging and I mean it's like okay, so it's just knowing where people stand on the issue I think, speaking of which, I'm getting a phone call from one of my fags right now. I love him dearly. I'll have to. I'll have to call him back. He's perfectly fine with the word doesn't care. But yeah, so listen, listen, listen, y'all, I'm right. So as old as I am and as long as I have been around, I am a fag hag from way back when.

Speaker 3 30:02

Yes, she is.

Coffee Talk With Peg and Friends

Speaker 2 30:03

I usually have a small collection of gay men nearby.

Speaker 3 30:06

There was a running joke. We moved out of town and she said I was going to call the gay hotline. Yes, I need a fag now.

Speaker 2 30:13

Yeah, absolutely, absolutely.

Speaker 3 30:15

I need some homosexual in my life. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 30:19

I was way ahead of Lady Gaga on all that, so anyway, you're crying. So anything else on the Warlock topic, I don't think that's it, okay. All right, let's get more coffee, all right?

Speaker 1 30:33

Thanks for listening. Join us next week for another episode. Peg and Coffee Talk is brought to you by Life Temple and Seminary. Please visit us at lifetemposeminaryorg for more information, as well as links to our social media Facebook, discord, twitter, youtube and Reddit.

Speaker 4 30:51

We travel down this trodden path, the maze of stone and mire. Just hold my hand as we pass by, see your blazing fires. And so it is the end of our days. So walk with me till morning breaks, and so it is the end of our days. So walk with me till morning breaks.