Pagan Coffee Talk
We will discuss topics related to the Pagan community. All views are from a traditionalist's point of view. The conversations are unscripted (no preparations have been made ahead of time). A special thanks to Darkest Era for the use of their songs: Intro- The Morrigan, Exit - Poem to the Gael. Check them out at http://darkestera.net/.
Pagan Coffee Talk
Confronting Partiality within the Sanctuary and Embracing Life's Rituals
Join us as we unravel the ethical quandaries of favoritism lurking within the halls of religious communities. Ever wondered how deep spiritual involvement might tip the scales of impartiality? You're in for an enlightening conversation that probes the fine line between human preference and moral oversight. Diving headfirst into the heart of bias, our hosts confront the challenges faced by spiritual leaders as they navigate their own tendencies towards favoring those poised for growth, while striving to uphold the core values of their institutions.
As we segue into the realm of rites and rituals, feel the pulse of community bonds strengthening through shared celebrations. From the joyous chorus of 'Happy Birthday' to the grandeur of a Quinceanera, we illustrate how these cherished customs weave the fabric of our collective experience. We contrast the rigidity of religious rituals with the inclusivity of rites of passage, advocating for these traditions' vital role in a world brimming with digital distractions. This episode invites you to step past the screen and immerse yourself in the rich tapestry of human connection, as we honor life's most significant moments together.
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Welcome to Peg and Coffee Talk. If you enjoy our content, please consider donating and following our socials. Now here are your hosts, lady Abba and Lord Knight.
Speaker 2:Alright, lord Knight, new coffee, new episode Yay, Yay. Does more involvement in an institution absolve you from unethical behavior? Are you ready for?
Speaker 3:this Sure you have a member at a church. Their family is more involved. Unfortunately, their child's slightly creepy, but the behavior is excused.
Speaker 2:You see what I'm asking.
Speaker 3:Of course I mean, but the behavior is excused. Hmm, you see what I'm asking. Of course I mean At what point does your coven or your flock regardless of the religion.
Speaker 2:Well, I, so you're talking about people playing favorites, mm-hmm.
Speaker 3:And we're not talking about nothing necessarily illegal no, no, no, no.
Speaker 2:But that actually brings me to a secondary question, because I was thinking about this the other night. Priests and priestesses are supposed to be neutral and we are supposed to treat every member equally. However, it's not always true. It's not really true. We always have favorites. We always have those that we connect to more, lean to more. I mean, right, this is just reality Right Now. That's tough because we can hold our hands out, and I, because I was really I was pondering this the other night. I was like do these connections stem from something more mundane and the fact that we're just able to say you know what? I click with that person, I connect with them, I like them, I like their personality.
Speaker 3:Do y'all share other common interests? Sure, you often show the same moral or ethical outcome on things.
Speaker 2:Yes, or is it more than that? Is it something deeper, and is the connection based in something more spiritual that leads us to lean in that person's favor more frequently?
Speaker 3:Yes, that actually is there. Yeah, you are right.
Speaker 2:I cannot. I think both are right. Both are right, but the question is how do we, do we temper them? Are we supposed to, or do we simply accept that this is part of the process? Elder priest or priestess and their progeny, the ones who effectively hived or took over the coven Right, Are you going to tell me that there's not a favoritism there?
Speaker 3:I mean, go on, that's what I'm sitting here saying. I'm flat out saying that, yeah, I mean, I have to admit to that, mm-hmm, there is a lot of on the back end of that. There is a lot of you have to admit to that. There is a lot of on the back end of that. There is a lot of. You have to hold on, you have to calm down, put a rock in your shoe, yeah, over and over and over, because it's not like you're not sitting there going yes, I'm biased, y'all need to stop me. You're right, it's wild. That's the upside I see in our religion, because we have the ability to do that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, because on the other side of it we also have the ability to go. This person maybe has maxed out right, another person. They have reached their limit of enlightenment to this point. You know this is going to be it for them, maybe for a while, maybe forever, and we cannot hold the same expectations. We cannot expect more or different necessarily from that person. We have to just kind of go okay, more or different necessarily from that person. We have to just kind of go okay, it's not too different. Like when a parent, you know, looks at a child and goes, you know, okay, yes, maybe that's a common expectation, but you know what they're seven.
Speaker 3:I'm not going to sit here and pretend like my parents were not sitting back going. This child's going to wind up doing this, this child's going to wind up doing this, this child's going to wind up doing this and adjusting their expectations accordingly.
Speaker 2:I don't think that's favoritism when you're realizing the actual limitations of your children? Well, I mean when you are talking about how to best bring them into the future. Yes, that's a very you're right.
Speaker 3:I mean, do we not do the same thing with students? That's what I mean.
Speaker 2:But it can seem. How transparent do we make? This is, I guess, what I'm saying, right, as priest and priestess. How transparent does this have to be, because there will be a point in time where we will be called out on it. Well, someone else is going to get mad at you.
Speaker 3:I think most people will just stop. We have some people in town who I think have potential. Have they done anything since you see what I'm saying? Oh, of course, but yet I know they have the resources and the ability so again it makes me wonder. There are those who make that choice that I know I maxed out, so I'm not going to complain, I'm just going to keep on doing I'm going to stay here, yeah yeah I'm good with this and that is.
Speaker 2:That is perfectly, but, as a result, that might put us in a position where you have to walk away from or show those people less of your time and attention Right In favor of the people that then are going to do more and progress further, and that can seem like favoritism, yes, but it's really not.
Speaker 3:Because, again, we're still working for the preservation of craft Bingo. And there it is. It's pieces on a chessboard, but that's it.
Speaker 2:Lo and behold, there is the Hershey bar at the end of the runway. Our job is the preservation of craft. So if person A has reached their maximum, we have to move on to person B, who is only just tapping their potential Right, and continue to further that. So person A may feel slighted, but really we're just saying nope, we're still focused on the objective.
Speaker 3:Yeah, we explained to you we're not your friends.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:All right, we might care about you and we'll listen to you, but we're going to tell you hard facts, not what you want to hear.
Speaker 2:Yeah Well, the other thing is it changes some of the expectations of people. The other thing is it changes some of the expectations of people. It changes what we expect from certain members of the group and what we allow others to get away with. And again it can seem like favoritism, like we're changing the rules as we go. Not really, no, we just know if you're capable of more, we're going to expect more Right and you're going to get pushed harder. Yes, Continuously.
Speaker 2:Keep going, keep going, keep going, keep going A little more. You're almost there.
Speaker 4:Almost.
Speaker 2:Up, up, up.
Speaker 4:Hold it, hold it Shit.
Speaker 3:You don't know that film at all. It's so true.
Speaker 2:But it is an important component of things and I think you know.
Speaker 3:Going back to but now this is back to the question. Yeah, we don't do that again, most temples I say we don't do this when you have that more active person and again you, you know what I'm talking about that person that's in temple. They're there every day, they're doing working. If they have a kid misbehaving, you're going to look. You need to do something.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Your little one trying to look at everybody's skirts not funny.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's just wild, you know.
Speaker 3:I find it more wild that certain religions allow this behavior.
Speaker 2:Well, I mean again, that's just nepotism at its finest, isn't it? It's just somebody being allowed to get away with something because of a relationship.
Speaker 3:Or finances, or whatever.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, look at donors, right, anytime you have a religious institution, a hospital, right, anything that has, you know, the donor family who gives, you know, $2 million to build the new facility or to Right, yeah, they're going to get away with whatever they want.
Speaker 3:Yeah, they're going to go to the front of the line. There will always be an opening when they need it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, effectively they've bought their position. Now that's where I will say I do think, I like to think that craft handles that differently.
Speaker 3:Okay.
Speaker 2:I have had, you know, some very significant donations over the years from people who were neophytes, who thought that that might advance them in some way.
Speaker 3:I can just buy my degree.
Speaker 2:Sorry to tell you that's not how it works out. I remember distinctly I had one person.
Speaker 3:For those who do try stuff like that, are you putting a little checkmark in the back of your mind?
Speaker 2:I don't think it's that. I think that I'm not allowing it to sway me. If I do not feel that that person is ready, I'm still not going to allow a donation to be a deciding?
Speaker 3:Oh no, I mean, do you do to weigh against them for initiation? If somebody does do this, is this going to weigh against them when you choose for initiation?
Speaker 2:No, no, no, it's neither a pro nor a con. That's my point.
Speaker 2:I just don't care, it's a separate matter as far as I'm concerned and I've had it I had one neophyte in particular who said to me I think I've realized I'm never going to hold a position in your church, in your church, and that was probably accurate, or they were going to have to do a hell of a lot more work. And, um, this was the year we had the, um, the, uh, the, the, the air conditioning went out and yeah, and there was a very large donation to help with, um, getting the HVAC system fixed at the church and it was like that's lovely, but, yeah, it's not going to.
Speaker 3:It's not going to.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's not going to buy your way in, and we're hesitant with those big donations, I think initially because we want to make that clear. Are you sure you want to donate? Are you absolutely positive? You want to make this donation Because you understand it changes nothing? Yeah, it's kind of wild. I think, though, in other circles, no pun intended. Yeah, that is a thing.
Speaker 3:I do too. We've heard some stories.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah.
Speaker 3:Here and there.
Speaker 2:And then there's just sometimes that we do have to check ourselves. We do have to, and usually it's with family, you know. I mean, come on, it's. It's why, for us, if you are married to, gave birth to or in any way, from a legal government standpoint right related to someone who is a student or, you know, working towards their degree, you are out of the picture, you are not involved. Nope, you cannot teach them, you cannot be a presiding priest or priestess in any of their rights. You cannot.
Speaker 3:You can observe, you are barely allowed to stand on the side of the circle looking in.
Speaker 2:Yes, you can observe.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:You can maybe have a small role, but you cannot be personally, physically. At the end of the day, the link that ties that person back to initiation Exactly. It's someone else entirely, because that is the ultimate abuse of power right there and it's funny because a lot of circles do that right it's the husband who initiates a wife and then the wife initiates and it's all very familial.
Speaker 3:Right.
Speaker 2:But it's like what does that do? Does that affect right their? This is what I'm looking looking for legitimacy in the community.
Speaker 3:I mean, I know in some temples, yes, I know in some others maybe not.
Speaker 2:Well, now, too, you get a lot of people who are claiming, you know, to be hereditary witches. Yes, right, and they were initiated by family members and all that. But, yeah, I mean, it's the same thing. It's like, um, does that really then still mean anything in the grand scheme? Because most traditional groups are going to go okay, that's fine, but because our tradition is different, if you want to participate with us, you have to start from the beginning.
Speaker 3:True, yeah, it just might be easier for you, definitely.
Speaker 2:I mean again, it's where we have rules. For a reason Rules are good.
Speaker 3:They're all so excited about it. I like them.
Speaker 2:I just need more coffee.
Speaker 3:All right, let's go get more coffee, okay.
Speaker 1:Let's talk about the difference between rites and rituals. Okay, so I think there's some confusion as to what a rite is and what a ritual is, because they can be somewhat similar, but not at the same time. Right, and rites like a rite of passage. They are ritualistic in nature, but they're not always rituals, right?
Speaker 3:All right, I know this sounds confusing, doesn't it? Okay, when we talk about ritual, we're talking about you go, you cast circle, you fill it with deity energy and you commune with them through ritual or rite, or I mean through rituals, through certain words or whatever. Right, that's a ritual. Rites, while it can be performed in ritual space is normally not necessarily like a full moon, an aspect or a Sabbath. Okay, it's not a set time period.
Speaker 1:Okay, so you're thinking more along the lines of if we take mundane life, thinking more of anniversaries, birthdays, birthdays.
Speaker 3:Births, wiccanings, I mean, again, you can't have a wiccaning until somebody gives a birth. Now, planning out that birth, I mean, are you going to wait until the full moon? No, you're going to do it when the parents are ready to do it, right, you know, it might even be a special ritual, but it's considered a right. Am I making sense there? Yeah, but I mean, I think these rights are important. Why? Well, I think they help us connect socially with family members and other people in our lives. Okay, hence the reason it's birthdays. I mean, these are times to be celebrated. Yes, you're one year closer to death, but it still sounds weird in my head. Anyway, now that I can't stop that. But I mean anniversaries, how long people have been together, right? Other things that we, you know how long companies even celebrate this they do. How long they've been in business, right, other things that we, you know how long companies even celebrate this?
Speaker 1:They do, how long they've been in business and certain milestones.
Speaker 3:I mean, the little town that we live up near is about to celebrate their 50th year Right Of being incorporated. Whatever, these are the things that bind us together as a community.
Speaker 1:Okay, but couldn't the same be said about rituals?
Speaker 3:Well, rituals do that too, but rituals are more specific. Unfortunately, rights do not always include just your religion. Okay, there we go. Rights can go outside of your belief system.
Speaker 1:So that's essentially what brings us together as a community. Right, we're getting people from all types of backgrounds, belief systems.
Speaker 3:I'm going to say the word wrong. The Hispanic girls at 16, they have that party Quinceanera. I can never say it right. I probably butchered that. Again, this is a rite of passage, but again, it's not necessarily religious in nature. Yes, there's religious icons and probably prayers and stuff done. Don't have a problem with this Right. Again, this is a rite of passage. This is a rite of passage. This is a rite of passage and it could involve people who are not necessarily part of that belief system.
Speaker 1:In olden days they would have taken when the boys became men. They would take them out in the woods or whatever and send them by themselves when certain biological functions happen.
Speaker 3:There's a ritual or some what they call rite of passage into manhood or whatever, or womanhood, and blah, blah, blah. These things mark those times, blah, blah. These things mark those times again. Here's the reason why I said they can't be like an Aspet or a Sabbath, which are rituals which have a which are religious in nature which are religious in nature and have that timing. You know what I mean. The full moons are always the full moons you're not going to right. You don't suddenly just start doing quarter moons for.
Speaker 1:Well, I mean you could, but do you need to? Do you need to?
Speaker 3:I mean, I mean, but do you see what I'm saying? There are certain times these rituals are done throughout the year. Right Rites of passages can override that because you know so.
Speaker 1:A rite of passage is not like a sweet 16. Right, but again, because that's a set time in somebody's life.
Speaker 3:Well, no, I'm going to say a sweet 16 is a rite of passage, because again, one girl might turn 16 today and one might be two weeks from now. The randomness, okay, is what I'm talking about. For rights, okay, there's no salwin. Isain is always Samhain, right, that date doesn't. You're with me. That date doesn't change With these things. They change because it happens to different people at different times. As we're speaking, how many babies have we been born right now?
Speaker 1:Probably too many Right.
Speaker 3:I mean, but you see what I mean.
Speaker 1:They've probably had at least three or four C-sections at the hospital I work at. I mean but you see what I mean they probably had at least three or four C-sections at the hospital I work at Right.
Speaker 3:But again, that's why I said, rite of passage, don't really have a set time. They might have a time period, but not a set time. Okay, does that make sense? Yeah, I might be confusing everybody.
Speaker 1:So then, if a rite is what brings a community together, then ritual Also brings community together, all these things.
Speaker 3:So then, how is it different Again, all these things?
Speaker 1:Other than being religious.
Speaker 3:Again, all these things are designed and purposefully done to cause interaction in the community, to cause that time to talk to one another, all this other stuff. Basically, nowadays it's a reason to get offline.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 3:It's a reason to go and sit and talk to other people, to do the touch glass, to do the real. Now I think it's more important than ever to hold these things and do these things to pull people out of those worlds. I mean because, no, we do. We got guys that spend all freaking day playing video games, oh yeah, and nothing else. Yeah, they never leave their rooms, All right. So these things we need these things nowadays more than ever to pull people out of these things, to pull them back into the community. You know, we just went to one not too long ago in which one of my relatives said well, we need to see each other more. What was my response? Well, throw more parties Right. Throw more events, Do more stuff. Create a reason to get out of the house Right.
Speaker 1:Are you with me? Well, and even then, you know something like that. It wouldn't have to be the whole family getting together. You know she could have just said, hey, let's get together for dinner one night.
Speaker 3:Yeah, okay. But again, these events, the reason these are the ones we celebrate them is to bring the community together, to give chance to reestablish those connections and I'm sorry, I think we need that now more than ever in today's society.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's definitely getting lost in the Right.
Speaker 3:It's easy to be anonymous online.
Speaker 1:Well, yeah, I was going to say it's getting lost in the white noise.
Speaker 3:Yes.
Speaker 1:And there's a lot of noise right now.
Speaker 3:And again, there's a lot of that stuff out there. It's easy the noise to ignore because it turns into white noise. Yes, you know, I'm sorry you tune out the people. Oh, they missed you. I don't care, they're right. I don't care, they're this phobic, I don't care, I'm done Right, you've overused it, everything is. Now I'm sitting here telling everybody no, we need to start coming back. We need to start seeing more of these things. We need more social events to be social with.
Speaker 1:Right, because I believe that we as humans are social in nature. It's part of who we are. We were designed to be social.
Speaker 3:It's hard to hate your neighbor when you're too busy dying, laughing, playing beer pong with them in the yard Well, true, having fun. It's harder to be mad at them and go. Well, that asshole over there when this is going on, true. So again, rights to me are not something necessarily religious in nature, but is required for a good, social, cohesive society. Okay, all right.
Speaker 1:I was going to say environment, but yes, Again.
Speaker 3:I mean, are there some that we have lost? And I wish we'd bring back Again the whole coming of age? I really wish we had rights and stuff like that, even if it is the sweet 16 parties or stuff like that. Right, I really wish we would bring those back. I really wish we would bring those back. Maybe not do like they did in the Emerald Green Forest video or movie where they cover you in honey and let fire ants bite you. Yeah, I'd rather not To prove you're a man, but Maybe not that far. But can we come up with something else that a little bit more you know what I mean? Yeah, because even the small things I see today we're sort of losing.
Speaker 3:There are people not getting their driver's license anymore. True, 16, it was a big deal to get your driver's license. It was a big, very big deal for me. To me, this was a rite of passage, right Like the prom and all this other stuff that I would consider a rite of passage, right Like the prom and all this other stuff that I would consider a rite of passage because it en notes a stage of life development.
Speaker 3:Right, I think that's what rites are. When we talk about rites, they are stages of life development.
Speaker 1:Well, and I think that with things like prom and driver's license and things like that, I don't know that things like that are that much important to kids nowadays, but the parents should be in my opinion. I could be wrong, but I feel like parents should be making a big deal out of these things because they are milestones.
Speaker 3:They are, I mean, well like, but then you got to think there's also some rights that we have, like the croning right To be a crone, a woman must have given birth at least and gone through menopause to be a crone, at least in our tradition. I don't know what anybody else does, but I know those are the main two requirements there, right? So again, if you haven't given birth and with women nowadays choosing not to which more the right do, but you know, how do you get a croning then Right? Well, I mean, yeah, you know, how do you get a croning then Right?
Speaker 3:Well, I mean yeah, I mean yeah, you went through menopause, but you didn't give birth.
Speaker 1:And the point of being a crone is that you've experienced that whole gamut of Right. The maiden mother.
Speaker 3:Crone aspects of it. You've gone through all of them. You can't go from maiden to crone. No, it's the idea there. You have to go through the mother to become the crone.
Speaker 1:Right. Well now, with that said, what about women who can't give birth? See again, is adoption acceptable? I mean, she's still experienced motherhood.
Speaker 3:I'm not sure what in the world to say that that would be something I would probably have to refer back to my high priest Before I step on any linemen. Linemen, you know, to a certain extent, because again the attitude or the respect or whatever for a high priestess is irrelevant of this. This again is just a marking of a stage of development. You know. I'm sure there might be some traditions where it's just menopause Could be. Yeah, it's not something I've ever done either, so no, don't think we ever will.
Speaker 3:I don't think we will. But again, this is a rite of passage. But do you see, what I mean by rite of passage is don't always seem to have a time to it. Yeah, but now I said that, but now at the other time we still looked at like proms. Proms always happen around the same time? Well, they do, but I know they don't always happen for the same school at the same day. They sort of spread them out Right?
Speaker 1:Well, yeah, they try to because you know traffic and kids and stupidity, right.
Speaker 3:All that good stuff, all that good stuff Again. Bring them back into your life and do them. Oh, absolutely yeah, go to the birthday parties, go to the birthday parties, go to the anniversary parties, go to these things. Spend time with your family and your friends outside of Christmas and blah, blah, blah. Find excuses to do this. Have a neighborhood block party, right, be social. Be social Damn it and with that said I need some really strong coffee. Let's go get some.
Speaker 1:Thanks for listening. Join us next week for another episode. Pagan Coffee Talk is brought to you by Life Temple and Seminary. Please visit us at lifetempleseminaryorg for more information, as well as links to our social media Facebook, discord, twitter, youtube and Reddit.
Speaker 4:Hold my hand as we pass by a sea of blazing fires, and so it is the end of our day. So walk with me till morning breaks, and so it is the end of our day. So walk with me till morning breaks. Music, music, music, music, music.
