Challenging Toxic Positivity and Is Magic a Religious Practice

What happens when positivity turns toxic? Explore the pervasive issue of toxic positivity within the pagan community. We confront the unrealistic expectation of perpetual happiness and the harmful effects of suppressing negative emotions. Discover how avoidance behaviors, including overdependence on substances like marijuana, can lead to a dangerous disconnect from reality. Our conversation highlights the necessity of experiencing the full spectrum of emotions to achieve true personal growth and balance, understanding the vital role of embracing both struggles and successes in your journey.

Magic is more than just spells and rituals; it's a practical skill deeply personal to each practitioner.  Delve into the common struggles of new witches, from a lack of confidence to a fear of failure, and the tendency to stick with familiar practices. Sharing personal insights, we discuss how the need for spell work in our daily lives diminishes and emphasize that magic should be a deliberate, thoughtful act, much like subtly guiding a river with a single pebble. Grab a cup of coffee and join in the conversation. 

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Chapters

• 0:21 Toxic Positivity in Pagan Community
• 12:50 Teaching Magic Theory in Witchcraft

Transcript

Speaker 1 0:21

Welcome to Pagan Coffee Talk. If you enjoy our content, please consider donating and following our socials. Now here are your hosts, lady Abba and Lord Knight.

Speaker 2 0:32

So another one of those fun internet terms that we keep hearing a decent amount about is toxic positivity. This one got my attention because I realized very quickly that it's also one of those things I tend to dislike about some of the pagan community.

Speaker 3 0:57

What do?

Speaker 2 0:57

you mean Everything is positive, everything is optimistic, everything is sunshine and rainbows all the time.

Speaker 2 1:09

Nothing bad can ever happen it's that sugar pop yeah fluffy bunny cotton candy yeah it just it's very unrealistic, it's very un-lifelike. And I wonder, because whenever I encounter somebody who is overly positive like that, are they realistic about the world and about what actually happens? About the world and about what actually happens, are they using that positivity to avoid what's really going on or what has the potential to happen? Or are they leaning more towards that side of saying you know, hope for the best, expect the worst, kind of thing?

Speaker 3 1:59

Or is this a coverup, because you're actually depressed?

Speaker 2 2:03

Yeah.

Speaker 3 2:04

You with me, that extreme opposite reaction to.

Speaker 2 2:07

Oh yeah, but also, it's what happens if you start to teach other people this or expose them to it too regularly. Right, they start to believe it, and toxic positivity can be just as bad as toxic negativity, right? Someone who's always, always, always optimistic about everything. Honestly, most people just want to tell them to shut up, right? But yes, I can see where, again, from a religious place, it can have a really, really negative influence on somebody's life.

Speaker 3 2:45

But I keep on seeing this thing in our society, where it seems like people are starting to believe that they should never be sad, they should never be upset. Oh yeah.

Speaker 2 2:56

Good vibes. Only, you know, it's almost like we've entered an era where, because people do tend to lean towards being a bit depressed and having some imbalances that the combat is to pretend it doesn't exist. Right, that's a terrible idea. We see it a lot, too, with people who are like I never get angry, I don't get angry, I don't yell, I don't do that because it's so negative, it's so bad for you, is it why?

Speaker 3 3:26

But it's different when you're sitting there going I don't do the yelling, I don't do this stuff because it's just nonproductive. Yes, it's a little bit different stance versus yes. I don't want to deal with the negativity, I don't want to have to. I have this conflict I have to do.

Speaker 2 3:38

It's avoid and deny, right Avoid and deny, avoid and deny. And that's the problem. We can't avoid everything. We can't avoid certain issues. I also liken it to people who really kind of go well, god will provide. When you know the shit hits the fan, it's like it's the whole God, take the wheel. Yeah.

Speaker 2 4:01

Mentality the whole nine yards. But I always counter that that with but what do you have to do to support that? Right, because I think it's funny, I always joke in the car I go. I can drive or I can navigate, but I cannot do both. So if god just took the wheel, are you navigating?

Speaker 4 4:19

right like. What are you doing? What's your job in all of this?

Speaker 3 4:22

you better read a map, at the very least something, yeah we keep on telling people you have to be an active part of what the world's going on. What are you doing? What's your job in all of this? You better read a map, at the very least Something. Yeah, we keep on telling people you have to be an active part of what in the world is going on. You do a spell for a job.

Speaker 2 4:37

It does no good, nobody's going to come to your door, knocking on your door, to give you a job. Yeah, you have to go out, put out resumes, go on interviews, you have to apply.

Speaker 3 4:47

Yeah, high absolutely.

Speaker 2 4:47

Again, this is the same thing. By being too positive, by ignoring the problem, yeah, but we do see this a lot in the pagan community. I also see where this and marijuana use have an overlap, because there are people who just say stay so perpetually stoned, they're happy all the time or they don't care, right, they're just they're in a very mellow, very zenned out kind of place and it's like, hey, that's cool, but are you avoiding life this way?

Speaker 3 5:15

right. Are you doing this not to be part of the community?

Speaker 2 5:19

right and then some people just go well, no, I do this so I stay calm. But you know what, sometimes you don't need to be calm Again.

Speaker 3 5:26

this is that thing I keep on saying. People want to avoid bad emotions.

Speaker 2 5:31

Yeah.

Speaker 3 5:32

People I've seen it a lot here lately is people think they need to take a pill, so they don't. They're never depressed.

Speaker 2 5:39

We are very wired to only go towards what is rewarding and what feels good. Yes, we don't want to engage what feels bad, but rational mind we have to acknowledge it exists for something. What is it and how does it benefit us, instead of always focusing on the negative?

Speaker 3 6:05

Now I see the same thing, like with when you exercise. Your muscles are sore Right, and a lot of people go. Well then, why exercise?

Speaker 2 6:14

Right, I don't want to exercise. I don't want to exercise if I'm going to be sore. Stamina, endurance and you have to explain to them over time that soreness will go away.

Speaker 3 6:21

Learning does the same thing when you first get it.

Speaker 2 6:23

It's going to be upsetting, it's going to, it's going to bother you, but that's you going through the learning process it is, and I sadly think a lot of people are at a place where they believe that avoidance is better than therapy. Yes, right, if I just deny that the emotion or the thing even exists, it's fine. I don't have to pay for a therapist to help me work through it. It's like, oh, is that really wise?

Speaker 3 6:52

I mean especially when you actually have real problems.

Speaker 2 6:54

Right. The other thing is this, and this is where I think the discussion turns I don't believe you can have a priest or a priestess running a group who is always that optimistic.

Speaker 3 7:09

No. Because, realistically, if people are coming to you, with their problems, you're not going to get the correct advice.

Speaker 2 7:19

You're not going to get the correct advice. But more importantly, though, who wants to talk to that person? Who wants to expose whatever quote unquote negativity is happening in their life, if all they're going to get met with is some overly optimistic, overly cheerful, you know?

Speaker 3 7:39

Homework card.

Speaker 2 7:40

Garbage. Yeah, I mean, at that point you're like wait a minute, what? That's not practical. No, that doesn't help. This is not helping me solve my problem. Yeah, so as members of this faith, we have an obligation to be balanced ourselves there. I feel like pretty regularly talking to students and our first degrees about embrace it, accept it, spend time with it, don't we.

Speaker 3 8:08

We've always took the concept of the road, that if you're going through hell, keep going, keep going.

Speaker 2 8:14

yeah, I mean we talked about it in circle not that long ago fire right, everybody get yo. It's so with emotionally right, it's hot tempered, it's angry, but you know what? It's also passionate and it's creative.

Speaker 3 8:27

And it's warm and it's love yeah.

Speaker 2 8:31

We cannot look at that negative. I mean again, I hate even using that word. Right, because they're not bad. No, we can't label them, it's just an emotion. But you can have too much of one. Yeah, and either is not great, but yeah again back to balance yeah, but toxic positivity is um. It's growing a lot. We're seeing more and more and more and more of it.

Speaker 3 9:03

Now, could this be a reaction from the or a reaction from when we were kids and the whole grunge and we were angry all the time? I'm being serious. Yeah, I think it's funny.

Speaker 2 9:16

It's a cyclical thing and I do believe that there is a generational gap here, gen X, by definition. We are, we're broody, we're distrusting, we, we automatically tend to go to the negative. And then you look at the younger generation.

Speaker 3 9:33

God forbid. If you're any authority figure, we will still look at you going uh-huh. Yeah, exactly, and the younger?

Speaker 2 9:40

generation is just like no, no, no, it's. We gotta think positive, we can't. And it's like, yeah, so it can seem on the surface. When we're faced with that, especially like in families, right, right, like you know, mom or dad is trying to be very, very realistic about what could go wrong and their offspring is just going everything la la la la, everything's gonna be fine, yeah, yeah yeah, no, no.

Speaker 3 10:10

I'm gonna go out party with my friends and have a couple of drinks. Nothing bad will ever happen to me.

Speaker 2 10:15

I'm special yeah, I don't know. I don't know, but it's also because these kids they don't. They think about it though too. Again, social media, the internet, they are bombarded with so much message, right? So? Much conversation all the time. Imagine being overly bombarded with negativity. You're going to go the opposite extreme.

Speaker 3 10:42

At some point. Yeah, just to get away from it.

Speaker 2 10:44

Right, and I think that's a lot of what it is they are. They're going to this very extreme place of like.

Speaker 3 10:51

I only want my feed to be positive and happy and I sort of see the same behavior in and I'm about to get us all in trouble in feminism now. Yeah, there's almost a toxic feminism. Oh absolutely out there and it's just as bad as misogyny for sure, for sure.

Speaker 2 11:09

There's no doubt about that in my mind. I think that there's absolutely a very intense brand of feminism that exists, where it's just it's no longer about equality, it's about obliterating men right and being better than them, more powerful than making more money, being stronger. It's like holy moly. We just all we wanted to do was be equal. That's it. And now it's domineering right?

Speaker 3 11:40

yeah, we just wanted to have a choice yeah, that's it.

Speaker 2 11:44

That's it again. It all, it all works together, though I mean, politics plays a big role in that. Right now, what's happening in the country? Yada, yada, yada it in potential students and potential initiates, because an overly. I mean look there's, we've all, we've all encountered it right. There are the people that are just so optimistic. I love this person. I want them to be around. They're such a great influence. You know they always have such a great disposition, but then you can have somebody that actually is so over the top with their optimism, it starts to.

Speaker 3 12:29

Wear thin on your nerves.

Speaker 2 12:30

Yeah, and the group becomes kind of resentful.

Speaker 3 12:33

Yes.

Speaker 2 12:34

And we're always having to balance that. We have to balance personalities constantly, so I think it's time for coffee.

Speaker 3 12:41

And do two Okay.

Speaker 2 12:45

So let's talk about magic.

Speaker 3 12:47

Okay, let's talk about magic.

Speaker 2 12:48

Okay.

Teaching Magic Theory in Witchcraft

Speaker 3 12:49

What would you like to know about magic?

Speaker 2 12:50

Well, first off, you want me to tell you everything I teach about magic Sure.

Speaker 3 12:54

Okay, I'm done.

Speaker 2 12:55

Ah, why. Why don't we teach magic?

Speaker 3 13:01

What's the point?

Speaker 2 13:02

Explain yourself.

Speaker 3 13:04

Well, there's how many books, there's how many videos, and if that's what all you're wanting to learn, you can just go there, because you don't actually have to be a wedge or initiate or anything like that to use magic, because magic is not necessarily religious practice, it's not necessarily a belief, it's not a faith, it's not in anything, it's just magic, it's a practice. And the closest we come to teaching it is magic theory only.

Speaker 2 13:36

But I think magic theory is important, because a lot of people don't even know that there is magic theory. No, the Witch's Pyramid has become a lesser known thing, I feel like actually I have here.

Speaker 3 13:49

Recently I've seen a lot of people actually sort of talk about it again well, that's encouraging.

Speaker 2 13:56

So we do get into that. We do talk about what it takes to perform magic, what is necessary of the practitioner. We talk about what's not necessary in some instances. But I guess it's sort of a. It sounds to me like you're saying it's a weeding out process.

Speaker 3 14:19

To some extent yes.

Speaker 2 14:21

Because if a student comes to Temple and is really just all about, how do I cast this spell? Or this spell or how do I do this? Or?

Speaker 4 14:28

how do I?

Speaker 2 14:29

do that they, yeah, they don't really have an interest in learning what we do. No, I saw something the other day where, well, there's, there's a, there's a facebook group, that's all, uh, like it's, it's, I think it's just called witches of north carolina, something like that, right, and somebody asked does anyone have any experience with glamour spells? And that started a whole, you know, conversation. That I thought was kind of interesting, but most people didn't even know what to say to it, and that is something I find funny. I think magic is so personalized, it's so much so geared towards the individual that sometimes it's hard to share.

Speaker 3 15:17

I think most people get more wrapped up in the style.

Speaker 2 15:20

Okay.

Speaker 3 15:21

Or the what.

Speaker 2 15:22

The instructions.

Speaker 3 15:23

Right, they get more wrapped up in doing the witch balls. They get more wrapped up in doing the witch balls. They get more wrapped up in doing the witch bottles. They get whatever spell. Yeah, that's what they're more interested in. We're here trying to teach religion, a way to live your life, how to grow spiritually and all this other stuff. This is our goal.

Speaker 2 15:43

Do you feel like spell work is becoming more materialistic, that it's more trinkety? Yes yeah, yeah, I do too. The witch balls are a good example of that yeah I find them to be. I'm like the witch balls, the witch jars. I'm like I don't really see these as being necessary.

Speaker 3 15:59

No, um, and again, if it's the type of spell you want to do. I mean and this is going to sound really weird, I guess maybe which is sort of all the witches I know sort of become like bombers.

Speaker 2 16:12

You get into one style of spell and that's it yes you're with me yeah, I would agree with that because it's well I mean magic. I think for most people is a system of if it ain't broke, don't fix it right. So if you do something and you have the outcome you were looking for and it works, why mess with it? Just keep with that system right, because there had to have been some patterns to it or something predictable that you could replicate.

Speaker 3 16:41

That's pretty common that's more common than anything else, and that's why it drives me up a lot to be sitting here going. Wait a minute, I know how to cast a spell.

Speaker 2 16:50

But the people who are obsessed with spell work are also the same people who are very susceptible to the charlatan community of selling spells or selling, you know, readings or that sort of thing.

Speaker 3 17:07

You see, I think that leads more to a self-doubt of one's own abilities. Are you with me?

Speaker 2 17:14

Oh yeah, for sure. We're seeing a huge lack of confidence in the spiritual world right now. I think that most new witches are yeah, they're very, very self-conscious. They don't trust their own abilities. They have, in many instances, very wisely heard the warnings, though. Yes, they've. They've listened, but they almost took it too far.

Speaker 3 17:41

It's like they're afraid to do anything right because they think it's going to backfire, or have a negative outcome, and most backfires are not what most people think they are. No.

Speaker 2 17:53

No, I have yet to have a colorful fireball go poof. And you know black smoke and you know it's a learning experience like anything else. Every time a spell fails, you have an opportunity.

Speaker 3 18:07

To fix something about yourself.

Speaker 2 18:10

And to determine what went wrong and how you can avoid it next time. The only way you become a proficient mage is to keep at it. But the irony of that is I find more and more and more that I don't even do it. I don't bother, no, I find less of a need for spell work in my day to day.

Speaker 3 18:37

True.

Speaker 2 18:38

And I think that's interesting when people hear us say that they're like what?

Speaker 3 18:43

Why? What's the point?

Speaker 2 18:44

Yeah.

Speaker 3 18:46

I mean, don't get me wrong, I get up each morning and I do my little morning prayer, whatever. But why? Yes, there is some magic involved, it's not yeah, to me it's an extreme measure yeah it's it really is.

Speaker 2 18:58

It's almost a last resort in some instances, and even then I do a lot of deliberating. Do I really want to do?

Speaker 3 19:04

that it's trying to explain to people. Okay, magic works like this. It's like throwing a pebble into a river to change the current ever so slightly to where you want it to go.

Speaker 2 19:16

Right.

Speaker 3 19:16

All right, but if you screw up, do you know how much more you're going to have to mess up and destroy to get that one particular stone back out?

Speaker 2 19:24

Yeah, that's true.

Speaker 3 19:25

How money the water gets and all this other stuff. That is a really good point because more and more of these people are doing things not knowing what they really need hmm, well, what do you think is needed?

Speaker 2 19:40

what's the, what's the, or is that it? It's just, it's going to vary based on the individual it's probably going to vary on the individual.

Speaker 3 19:49

How many times have you ever done a spell for a true need, something you knew you needed and had no choice, and you're at that end. How often do them spells fail?

Speaker 2 19:58

a lot I mean, but over the years collectively now less so yeah for sure. But again, I think my first reaction is always what do I need to do differently? What? Do I need to fix, not how do I get magic to proceed?

Speaker 3 20:15

Well, I think in our religion we finally get to a point to where we're like okay, you know what, if I do maintenance on myself, just like I do maintenance on my house, I'm not going to have a problem, I'm not going to have an accident. I know when the stove's going to go out. I know, yeah, because I'm doing those maintenance, I'm doing them checks.

Speaker 2 20:33

I think we've become more observant as well. We've become a lot more aware of what has the potential to go wrong and how to get ahead of it.

Speaker 3 20:42

There's how many years we've had of things going wrong. Yeah, no kidding how many times has your car broke down at the most inopportune moment Of course I mean how many times has your car broke down at the most inopportune moment?

Speaker 2 20:52

Of course I mean that's life. Yeah, it's not too different. We go through these kind of spiritual maintenance checkpoints and we hopefully become wise enough that we start to see ahead. But that's not always the case and I think you know young practitioners are the ones who are very, very magic the older we get, we're just like it's fine.

Speaker 3 21:16

Well, when you say there and you see these people doing a spell a day, yipes seriously. There are challenges right, there are books, there are challenges going around where no, no people on youtube and stuff that were going around doing a spell a day.

Speaker 2 21:31

That's wild, that's a lot of energy, that's a lot of effort, wow.

Speaker 3 21:36

That's a lot of meddling.

Speaker 2 21:39

There's also a dilution that has to take place there, because how many spells can you have floating in the ether?

Speaker 3 21:48

before you've divided yourself too much, nothing's going to work or they start to interfere with one another right, oh, oh, wow, yeah, I hadn't even heard about that again here.

Speaker 2 21:58

This is a problem we have in our community I'm curious to know how many people take advantage of that, though, where they go. Oh, if your spell a day isn't working here, let me. Let me fix it for you, for how?

Speaker 3 22:12

many dollars. I said they're going oh, your energy's low, yes, your chakras need to be real, or or you know, or your how to make your spells more effective, or your spells not as effective as they used to why did they stop working? I see a lot of these two yipes. That's not good because these people are doing a spell a day wow because some people have this thought that, well again, magic's like a muscle the more I use it, the better I'll get at it, yes, but you also need to break.

Speaker 2 22:42

Yeah, and you, you need a little bit of separation and you need a chance to charge, and there's a lot holy cow, I had no.

Speaker 3 22:51

Wow, you just blew my mind with that one this is what I really have a problem on in our community because, again, just like you, you're just seeing the tip of it. It gets a whole lot worse. Wow, I I've sat here and listened the whole podcast. That's all they ever talk about, or spells this and spells that.

Speaker 2 23:12

You're right, there are. There's so many books, there's so many folklores, there's so many yeah, so why would we bother?

Speaker 3 23:21

Why would we bother?

Speaker 2 23:22

Yeah.

Speaker 3 23:22

We teach the witch's pyramid, then we go straight into ethics and morals.

Speaker 2 23:26

Yeah, I will say that, though throughout a group Burke-Hovann there is a sharing of magical ideas that tend to happen between the practitioners. Yes, but it's not necessarily part of a class. It's not part of it's like it's not something the church itself sanctions. It's just something that naturally happens.

Speaker 3 23:46

But again we're back to the majority of those conversations. The majority of them turn out to be more about a style or a way of doing or a way to look at it.

Speaker 2 23:52

Yeah, that's what I mean. Or somebody will go. Well, you know when that happens, I do.

Speaker 3 23:56

X Y and.

Speaker 2 23:57

Z and then someone else goes oh, that's a good idea. I should try that yeah.

Speaker 3 24:02

All right, it's like a recipe at that point yeah.

Speaker 2 24:16

It's like baking tips. That's very funny, but yeah, but I do think that for me that's a big part of the draw of the community component is being able to share those ideas with people who you know have a similar foundation or background and you're not having to kind of weed through the gobbledygook of what their experiences might be. So, yeah, it becomes easier to take the advice or to try the thing that they're talking about.

Speaker 3 24:40

Right, because then it's more like you know next time you clean your house, try it with this stuff instead.

Speaker 2 24:45

Right, right, right, right, exactly. That's kind of wild.

Speaker 3 24:50

I think it's wild that this is the way we treat it.

Speaker 2 24:53

But yet when we look at the younger community and see what they're doing, we're kind of like um, guys, um yeah, I also think that there's still very much the the people who tend to lean towards practical magic and that's more of a folklorist thing. And then, of course, you have High Magic, which is so much more involved.

Speaker 3 25:13

Now I'm not putting this in the category of that fresh new witch, okay, who does all the? Maybe not a spell a day, but every other week I'm going to do. Sure, we overlook those. That's that growing process, yeah.

Speaker 2 25:28

I agree with that. I'd love to hear everybody's thoughts on it, because, as far as I know, most other groups don't teach it either. No, it's not really. It's just, it's a to each individual sort of thing.

Speaker 3 25:43

And I think that's what most people have a problem with groups or temples and stuff like this Is they don't seem to understand that this is where our focus is, not on the magic yeah, but I mean at the same time there are other groups that I'm well aware that they do collective magic yes they do group sorts of things on, like, let's say, full moon, and I think that's sometimes what rubs people the wrong way, because they go.

Speaker 2 26:06

I don't want to do that, okay, so don't well find a group that doesn't do that but there's a difference between a spell work and a spiritual working.

Speaker 3 26:14

Oh, absolutely.

Speaker 2 26:16

You know that group spiritual working as a whole is it is to it's to enlighten, it's to heighten, connection, it's to yeah, but that's completely different.

Speaker 3 26:27

But I also don't see it as spell work no I see it as personal work yes, no, you know, it's sort of like everybody's. Just, we're like.

Speaker 2 26:34

You know, amazon, I got a spell for that delivered right to your door same day, same day spells. Maybe we need to do something with that. Same day spells. So funny. Jeez, oh boy, is it time for more coffee.

Speaker 3 26:55

Yes, it is.

Speaker 2 26:56

All right.

Speaker 1 26:58

Thanks for listening. Join us next week for another episode. Pagan Coffee Talk is brought to you by Life Temple and Seminary. Please visit us at lifetempelseminaryorg for more information, as well as links to our social media.

Speaker 4 27:15

Facebook, Discord, Twitter, YouTube and Reddit. We travel down this trodden path, the maze of stone and mire. Just hold my hand as we pass by a sea of blazing pyres. I see your blazing fires, and so it is the end of our day, so walk with me till morning breaks. And so it is the end of our day. So walk with me till morning breaks, thank you.