Clergy Wellness and Personal Fulfillment

Have you ever wondered if understanding yourself could be the key to a happier and more fulfilling life? Inspired by the timeless wisdom of Henry David Thoreau and Walt Whitman, our episode "Know Thyself" explores the transformative power of self-awareness. We discuss how reflecting on your thoughts and emotions can help you form your own beliefs and resist external pressures. Amid the relatable temptation of celebrity gossip, we highlight the importance of grounding ourselves through self-reflection. This episode invites you to turn inward, examine your true desires, and unleash your potential for personal growth.

Switching gears in our second chapter, "Recognizing and Addressing Priestly Burnout," we tackle the significant but often overlooked issue of clergy fatigue. Church leaders juggle numerous responsibilities, from counseling to financial management, which can lead to severe burnout. Recognizing these signs and understanding the vital role of self-care and timely breaks can be life-saving. Open communication within the church community is pivotal, and we offer practical solutions like duty rotation and mandatory timeouts to maintain a healthy spiritual environment. Join us for an enlightening discussion on fostering a supportive and resilient church leadership.

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Transcript

Speaker 1 0:16

Welcome to Pegan Coffee Talk. If you enjoy our content, please consider donating and following our socials. Now here are your hosts, lady Abba and Lord Knight.

Speaker 2 0:27

So I have a fresh cup of coffee, sort of mostly. No, I don't I need more, damn it. That's not how we're supposed to start an episode.

Speaker 3 0:37

Shit. Would you like me to get you some more?

Speaker 2 0:39

Maybe I need more coffee. But while we're doing that, hold on, let me at least finish what I have here. Hang on, we really are coffee obsessed around here. So, lord knight, wanted to talk about. Know thyself, I am a big fan of the existentialists and all of the Henry David Thoreau and Walt Whitman, and you know those guys. I spent a good bit of time, you know, studying them, so I feel like that was my first introduction to the concept of know thyself was really studying those philosophers.

Speaker 3 1:28

What is it? What are they actually talking about? Why is this so important? In craft, I mean me, and you harp on this subject constantly.

Speaker 2 1:38

Well, for starters, it's going inward to understand what is outward. Because if you don't know yourself, if you don't know your own beliefs, your own ideas, thoughts, emotions, then one, you are very susceptible to being swayed, right, you're very susceptible to other people's ideas and opinions and thoughts, and that's kind of honestly.

Speaker 3 2:13

I mean, it's how we form into adults, you know, right, but as an adult, Well, let's admit it, we see this process in some people and we see this process not in others.

Speaker 2 2:25

Yeah, but being attuned with yourself and being able to I always call it, you know, sitting in the discomfort, you know sitting in your own. Thank you, by the way. He brought me fresh coffee. Whatever it is good or bad, to think on it, to understand it, to understand your reactions, your thought processes. It really is how we grow, how we learn, how we have control of ourselves. So much of religion is about self-control and this is where that process begins. If you're not in tune with yourself, I, I look, I have. I have a couple of people in my life who I adore and I love dearly, but that is not who they are no everything is what's next?

Speaker 2 3:21

what's next? What's next? External? What's next? What's next external, external, external. Or it's running away from things, or it's avoiding things, denying things, and to me, when I look at that, I'm like you're going 90 miles an hour.

Speaker 3 3:41

Not getting anywhere.

Speaker 2 3:42

Right, but you're not moving, but your mind is always so occupied that you're never actually taking a step in any direction.

Speaker 3 3:52

Right.

Speaker 2 3:53

And I can't change that for them. I can only try to bring it to their attention when I can, if they even want to. But that's up to them. But for me me the ability to kind of step away from that and take a look at it makes me go. Oh yeah, this is why it's so important for me to be grounded in who I am and what's important to me. The other thing is it keeps you from being overly occupied with other people. Exactly, being overly occupied with other people is um once you like a pastime?

Speaker 3 4:29

well, see, this is what I find funny, once you start figuring out why you start to do things the way you do it and you realize it really has nothing to do with anybody else in one world everybody else's behavior starts to become less interesting to you.

Speaker 2 4:43

And one world everybody else's behavior starts to become less interesting to you. Well, and that's what's funny, you know, when I hear people gossip, when I hear friends talk about other, I'm always just like why, who cares? And it's such a strange thing. But it's so common and people do. Common and people do. They exhaust a lot of energy and a lot of effort in other people's affairs, but they're not ever stopping to say what do I need? What do I want? What's important to me right now?

Speaker 3 5:20

so what thing makes people motivated more or Stick their nose in other people's business sometimes?

Speaker 2 5:26

It's easier. It's easier to deal with other people's stuff Of course it's always easier to deal with other people's stuff, to pass judgment on other people's actions or inactions, because then we don't have to deal with our own.

Speaker 3 5:39

Because as soon as that person's failures are starting to be pointed out by somebody, they normally will run away real fast.

Speaker 2 5:48

Not necessarily run away, but it's just like I have one girlfriend who she's so sweet and her heart is always in the right place, but everything is about other people and I constantly stop her and I go yes, but what do you want? What do you need right now? Don't worry about that person. Don't worry about that person. That's their problem. That has nothing to do with you. So you're exerting all of this energy and effort being wrapped up in what's going on with them, but what does that have to do with you?

Speaker 3 6:28

one, the same thing about people that get wrapped up in the following what the stars from hollywood, all these actors?

Speaker 2 6:36

same thing. I mean, and I look at stuff like that and I go, look, it's a nice distraction. You know like I am just as guilty as anyone else of seeing an article about J-Lo and Ben Affleck getting breaking up for now, the 500th time I'm like, oh, let's see what they have to say.

Speaker 2 6:52

Ok, oh, ok, yeah, yeah, ok, all right, he drinks too much. Yeah, she can't make up her mind. Uh huh, ok, all right, so they're filing for divorce. All right, so they're filing for divorce, all right. And then I'm good. You know what I mean? I just needed that momentary hit. And then I'm like, I'm good. But there are some people, yes, obsessed, like I never understood that. I'm like, why? Because, but again, it's a lovely distraction.

Speaker 2 7:20

It keeps you from having to deal with what's actually going on with you and your problem right, this is the same reason people drink this is one of the reasons they do drugs, it's we. Nobody wants to deal with themselves but yet, ironically, know thyself is. I think I'm paraphrasing Buddha now. It is the fastest way to enlightenment.

Speaker 3 7:47

Yes.

Speaker 2 7:47

Yeah, but it's scary.

Speaker 3 7:52

So now, how do we do this? How do we learn about ourselves? What are ways we can do this? Oh boy, Of course, we all know the big one for us is I'm going to sit here and say it meditation, meditation.

Speaker 2 8:02

Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 3 8:05

But there are other ways.

Speaker 2 8:06

There are, so meditation is super important. I also think that therapy is incredibly important here, because a good therapist that's exactly what they're going to focus on is you.

Speaker 3 8:21

And a good place to start. A good place, I think some people start, is pull out a piece of paper, write the top of it Today, I believe and keep writing.

Speaker 2 8:31

Mm-hmm, yeah, journaling.

Speaker 3 8:33

It helps out a lot.

Speaker 2 8:34

It does. I think that support groups of various types right, depending on whatever you're dealing with in your life, that's a biggie thing too is, if you spend some time in your own rituals, right, really truly focusing that ritual on your relationship with deity right. That can help, because you start to establish a relationship where you go. Well, I can't lie to you, so might as well get honest about what's really going on or what I'm feeling or thinking.

Speaker 3 9:17

And God forbid. If you don't feel attracted to a deity, just pick one. Yeah, and just start building it yeah. If you don't think you can do that until you have a desire for one deity over another one.

Speaker 2 9:32

Yeah, just choose one that works for you yeah, remotely just interests you, or that you'd like to get to know better, because there's the irony by starting to get to know them better, you get to know you better yeah, because they're gonna. They're gonna turn it around on you real quick.

Speaker 2 9:49

They're good about that yeah, I think this is also where you know being observant, right being, being very observant and not quick to action, like when I, when I talk about sitting in it. There are times where I will just choose to be in a relatively solitary time. I will listen, I will watch, I will absorb, I will take notes, but I will not take action yet. I will defer any idea of action until I feel like I've adequately studied the situation, because that forces me to really think about the why.

Speaker 3 10:40

Right, because, again, first part of this step is to realize when you get information and it makes you emotional. You got to stop, yeah, because your emotional reaction jumps ahead of your logic and reason.

Speaker 2 10:52

Oh, absolutely. I mean spontaneity in this case is not our friend no yeah all right.

Speaker 3 10:59

What is this spot? No, no, no. Spontaneity isn't romantic, spontaneity is burp yeah, I mean well, but that's it.

Speaker 2 11:07

it's like there's one thing like look, there's there's spontaneous in the sense of right, like let's go get in the car right now and drive an hour into the mountains and go apple picking.

Speaker 3 11:23

OK.

Speaker 2 11:23

OK, that sounds great. There's no. There's no consequence there, other than we're going to lose some time and we, provided we don't have any plans. I mean again, we're not. There's nothing, but if it's, let's get in the car and drive three states away and go on an impromptu vacation. That's going to screw up our jobs and our home life, and everything no and that's the problem.

Speaker 2 11:51

People make very spontaneous decisions here. Here's another way I look at it. Just because you can doesn't mean you should. Yeah, I had a conversation not that long ago with a friend of mine who's like I'm gonna, I'm gonna get a new car and I'm like why? What's wrong with the car you have? Well, well, you know, it's starting to get older and and.

Speaker 2 12:15

Does it work? Well, yeah, but I really want it. Why? And what it boiled down to was she went to a dealership that told her she could afford this super fancy new, and I went. Just because you can afford it doesn't mean you should buy it.

Speaker 3 12:32

Well, and how often do you buy the whole phones? How often does a new phone come?

Speaker 2 12:37

out, I know, but that's what I mean. Everybody culturally, we're obsessed with what's new, what's shiny, what's net like keeping up with the yeah, keeping up with everybody, but it's.

Speaker 2 12:48

But there is something to be said for again, again. Why Is there a real reason? Does it benefit you somehow? Or is it just to show off? That's absurd, right? My friend with the car. She wanted to go out and buy a brand new Tesla. Why, I'm like you don't need a Tesla, and it was just such a. I'm like you have a honda. You have like, your gas mileage is phenomenal. What are you worried about?

Speaker 2 13:20

and really all it came down to was the lifestyle upgrade yes and I said you are not in a financially secure enough position to justify this. How can you say that? Because three weeks ago you borrowed money from me. That's how I can say that, yeah, and that you know kind of nipped it real quick, but yeah, it's that sort of thing and we all do that. Um, so if you're someone who constantly feels like you do everything at the seat of your pants without thought, without you know, it's just in the now, stop, yeah take a breath, and then some people.

Speaker 2 14:01

It's almost the opposite, in that everything is about later, later, later. They're always deferring, right, but they're deferring in a way that's unhealthy, right, because they're never concerned about now and, as a result, again they're just stagnant Again.

Speaker 3 14:18

this is how these basements get and garages get all this stuff piled into them. I'll deal with it later.

Speaker 2 14:24

I'll deal with it later. Put it out there, yep, it can be interesting we actually do the same things in our heads.

Speaker 3 14:32

We keep stuff in our heads that clutter our minds, behaviors that we used to do as kids, that don't make no sense as adults.

Speaker 2 14:41

You know, Lady Maya is fond of talking about the shit cup.

Speaker 3 14:45

Yes.

Speaker 2 14:46

You know, and how your shit cup fills up. And you got to empty the shit cup only for it to fill up again. You know and I think it's funny because when people talk about know I gotta spring clean, you know I gotta get. You know, get into the attic. You know how about the, the attic of your brain, how about that attic? Start there. You know there's a lot of cobwebs in there too yes and we do we. We spend time in thought cycles that don't benefit us, but we do it anyway.

Speaker 3 15:16

Constantly. I mean, I have to admit I've gotten wrapped up into it. Be sitting there and you're sitting there. Why am I watching cat videos?

Speaker 2 15:24

Because, in a weird way, your brain is literally telling you we need to be doing something different. Yes, yeah, it's tough. It can be. It can be really really tough. It's one of the reasons why I prefer to do things physically, like with my hands, to stay tactile right even though I have to be careful there too, because if I get too wrapped up in a project then I ignore other things, right? So yeah, oh, okay all right, what happened?

Speaker 3 15:58

what is it?

Speaker 2 15:59

huh, maybe somebody needs coffee so if you've never read henry david thoreau, it's. I think it's critical um him. Walt whitman, but again, this is where we get into even some of the psychologists. They're all on that same quest go inside, make things internal, not external with that know thyself and know your coffee, and know your coffee. All right, lord Knight, let's talk about what happens when a priest or a priestess needs to take a break.

Speaker 3 16:41

Okay.

Speaker 2 16:41

Sabbaticals.

Speaker 3 16:42

Sabbaticals yeah, sabbaticals happen.

Speaker 2 16:45

They do, I guess let's first talk about the why let's first talk about the why. Well, when running a, temple, I mean, but in the past, what have we done in the past week? Temple wise, oh yeah, um, let's see. I mean I me personally I had some work that I had to do on the website. I had to review ritual for the last full moon, get it into the you know, our archives and our system of housing rituals and material. I had to speak to the person who wrote the ritual.

Recognizing and Addressing Priestly Burnout

Speaker 3 17:25

You performed the ritual you had a class, because there's what I've been doing. I'm scheduling classes, meeting and talking to people who want to take classes.

Speaker 2 17:36

Yeah, here we are recording for the podcast. We get tired.

Speaker 3 17:42

Yes.

Speaker 2 17:44

There is a burnout factor, that can happen.

Speaker 3 17:48

This is not a spiritual burnout. At no point when we experience this, does this stop us from lighting our incense, doing our prayers and our meditations.

Speaker 2 17:58

There can be an aspect of that, though, but let's yes, let's just talk about first the you're right the mundane burnout.

Speaker 3 18:06

Of it all.

Speaker 2 18:06

Involved in running a church.

Speaker 4 18:10

Counseling Organizing, managing Counseling, counseling teaching finances.

Speaker 2 18:17

It's a lot, it's a lot. And because our groups tend to be small, the majority of the work falls onto just a small number of people. And even if you have a group of 10 or 15, still the majority of the work falls on maybe three people. And it's a lot. And we get tired, physically, mentally, emotionally. So sometimes we take a step back and take a few months off but to this we have to introduce everybody to the laws.

Speaker 2 18:57

Mm-hmm, Yep, dum, dum, dum, yeah, and it's we have the laws, and then we also have the fact that the other people in the church, especially neophyte students' first degrees. They will then sometimes feel guilt, right or you know, as if it was their fault. In some instances there can be a power dynamic of is this person getting to be too old or incapable of fulfilling their duties? It's like oh boy.

Speaker 3 19:32

Right.

Speaker 2 19:36

Yeah, reality is, sometimes we just need a break, and there is nothing wrong with admitting it, I think. I think most churches would prevent some pretty catastrophic situations if their clergy stepped up sooner and said hey, I'm hitting a limit, I need a break, I need a timeout, I need some help, whatever it is.

Speaker 3 19:59

Right, yeah, we have to take care of ourselves too, our own mental and physical beings oh absolutely All this. So if we snap, yeah.

Speaker 2 20:11

Yeah, it's a bad day.

Speaker 3 20:12

It's a bad day. It's a bad day.

Speaker 2 20:14

I also believe that there is a form of spiritual, not burnout, but, yes, effectively a sort of crisis of faith.

Speaker 3 20:24

Right.

Speaker 2 20:25

It happens, yes, and I think, when it does happen, that individual needs to be given an opportunity to go off and explore that for themselves, because if they don't, what good are they?

Speaker 3 20:39

Right, I mean until you resolve the issue.

Speaker 2 20:42

Yeah, because if your faith is lacking, wavering suffering. Oh my God, right, how do you lead?

Speaker 3 20:50

Exactly.

Speaker 2 20:51

Yeah, my god right, how do you lead exactly? Yeah, so that's an even more dire situation. Potentially that has to be addressed, and then sometimes it's just mundane. Life forces us in a direction taking care of family, taking care of children, taking care of somebody who's ill.

Speaker 3 21:12

Having to take a job been a death for a state.

Speaker 2 21:14

Yeah, yeah, I mean. You know, these things happen they do, they do, and it's never easy. It's always an upheaval one way or another, but acknowledging it and recognizing it and getting through it, I think, is again pretty critical.

Speaker 3 21:36

So what would you consider some of the signs that we can tell priests and priestesses to look for that you may be getting close to this?

Speaker 2 21:44

Well, I think one thing that we have always done is, the minute someone suffers a catastrophic or a traumatic situation, we basically go. You're on a timeout.

Speaker 3 21:56

Right no major decisions.

Speaker 2 21:58

Yeah, you sit the hell down and sometimes right. The want is to fight that, because the belief is then, of course, no, no, no. I need my faith now more. Yes, you do, but that doesn't mean you need to be running the church right now right it doesn't mean you need to be holding classes. It doesn't mean you need to be running a ritual. You can participate, but you are not leading anything. Sit down and again it's.

Speaker 3 22:23

It's tough, people don't necessarily like it, but that can be essential I mean this makes it more difficult when you have priest to priest who says your, your coven members, are saying this and coming to you going low. We're seeing you're getting burnt out yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 22:41

Another thing I think is it's mood. Yeah, it's mood, it's it's watching out for, for tempers is somebody becoming very quick to anger. Yeah, are they getting snappy? Are they acting a little bit irrationally? And then sometimes it's also the opposite. Are of they withdrawn right, are they? It has their has their enthusiasm yeah ritual left out of yes, that was the word I was looking for, right? Yeah, their enthusiasm has it left them is. Are we no longer seeing them become excited? Or, you know, right is is. Is it not sparking joy anymore?

Speaker 2 23:26

right that's important, because without that I mean everything's going downhill, then oh, big time, and it can happen very quickly and it's normally.

Speaker 3 23:37

I think that's where you're seeing the beginnings of covens that fall apart because people are just not well, they fall apart because then other people become resentful.

Speaker 2 23:49

Right, because the folks who are picking up the slack become resentful because they don't necessarily understand why that person has withdrawn right the way that they have. So that's why it's much more, it's much wiser to just be forthright about it. Um, in a large enough group, I think, if you have the manpower, there should be a rotation, yeah, where everybody takes at least a few weeks off throughout the course of the year to kind of rest and recharge so that they're not getting burnt out.

Speaker 3 24:27

Right.

Speaker 2 24:28

So you're not always that one writing ritual year after year after year, mm-hmm, because, trust me, I've done those oh, I, I remember at one point and part of it really was it was just being over zealous with the lecture series. I mean, I would work full time and then, when I was done with my work work I would immediately start my second job, which was working on the lecture series right and I think I did this for like a year and a half and I it was too much like I did yeah, I was like what have I done?

Speaker 2 25:07

yeah, there's a point where you have to take a break.

Speaker 3 25:10

You can't, you cannot just keep doing that I mean because I'll admit it that lecture series is completely wild.

Speaker 2 25:18

Oh, yeah, well. Well, you know, lord knight was a was an information hog oh, I am, and oh sorry good god see what happens. I'm getting my elders confused.

Speaker 3 25:31

I'm getting yeah no, no, I just think this means I'm becoming more and more like them.

Speaker 2 25:36

Oh dear, oh dear. No, you're not that bad no no, no, it's just, it's a lot. It's a lot. People step back for any number of reasons, think that hopefully, personality clashes or um problems right within the group would not be the reason, but that does happen. I think that one of the things that becomes really challenging there is it's hard to maintain a group of people who recognizes nothing I am doing is a personal attack on any one person.

Speaker 3 26:20

Right.

Speaker 2 26:21

And really none of my actions are personal in that regard. So it's kind of like everybody has to agree that they're not going to take it personally on the other end. Right, and that's tough because not everybody can do that no we tend to be a sensitive lot.

Speaker 3 26:40

Right, we wear our heart on our sleeves sometimes I mean people are self-centered and absorbed to some extent well I always say right, it's, it's the ego component.

Speaker 2 26:53

Right, if the ego is there, then we will take those things personally. If we take a step back, however, and we look at the big picture, right, it's much easier to understand the decision making process. But, yes, we've seen plenty of first seconds and even thirds, and occasionally elders not not as likely, no who sort of retreat for a bit because they're they're feeling some kind of tension with someone else. That that troubles me on a different level, because I think that that's the most bothersome yeah we don't, we can't afford that, nobody can.

Speaker 2 27:33

That's rough most bothersome.

Speaker 3 27:35

Yeah, we can't afford that, nobody can. That's rough. So I mean, when stuff like that happens, we need to know about it, so we can figure out a way to get rid of that tension.

Speaker 2 27:41

Yeah, and those rifts just can't exist.

Speaker 3 27:45

You can't just ignore them.

Speaker 2 27:47

No, no. And we have seen instances right where there's not hivings but complete breaches, right where groups split apart. Yes, because of things like that and under that sort of circumstance that's where I go might it have been wise to take a break?

Speaker 2 28:09

Right, let somebody else take the wheel for a little bit let it simmer down, you know, before rallying up a large number of people and kind of you know, like I'm gonna do my thing, and then breaking away like wait, what? What if you took a few months off instead? Maybe do that before making that decision, because that's pretty intense. But you know, everybody wants to be right. Fortunately, me personally. I've never seen it happen. I've only heard of it. I've seen the aftermath of it.

Speaker 2 28:43

Oh, I have too With other groups yeah, but I've never been involved in anything like that.

Speaker 3 28:50

Or would I want to be no?

Speaker 2 28:52

not, really, not really. That's sort of where I go. Yeah, that could be rough, but sabbaticals are healthy. There's something we it's always an option being committed to the faith does not mean that sometimes you don't put yourself first. It's actually essential. Yes, and yeah, people forget that. So time for coffee.

Speaker 3 29:24

Yes, time for coffee.

Speaker 2 29:25

Okay.

Speaker 1 29:28

Thanks for listening. Join us next week for another episode. Pagan Coffee Talk is brought to you by Life Temple and Seminary. Please visit us at lifetempleseminaryorg for more information, as well as links to our social media.

Speaker 4 29:48

Facebook, discord, twitter. Maze of stone and mire. Just hold my hand as we pass by a sea of blazing pyres, and so it is the end of our day, so walk with me till morning breaks. And so it is the end of our day. So walk with me till morning.